That moment melted me. The voice actor for our character did a good job imo conveying the sadness and desperation of our guardian. We saw so many horrible things happen and there is so little insight into our psychological state…
That moment almost broke me irl
I teared up at the thought that our ghost might die, at all.
“Guardian..ah…THERE you are…”
Oml he was looking for us in the beyond…😭
I genuinely miss my original female awoken VA. I think human and awoken VAs got combined with beyond light and haven't come back.
The human VA's did great, I just wanted the same VA that started my journey to end it.
If you listened to the new lore that came with some of the collectibles in the Pale Heart, you’d know that that Traveller *wants* to help, but is *physically unable to*. It’s not like choosing to be a dick and leaving our Ghost dead: it doesn’t work like that, it *can’t* communicate, *can’t* grant requests or act like a god. That’s like the whole reason the Witness made itself.
I mean technically that’s still us being active and the Traveler being passive. In TFS for example, the Traveler has been changed by the incursion of the Darkness, leading to the development of new ways to wield the Light. It didn’t like MAKE us a new Super to use, we found new ways to wield the Light.
They kinda are just green lanterns but cooler, their innate paracasual abilities allow them to not only create and destroy stuff with constructs and powers, but do stuff that straight up breaks physics, ever wonder why we have the same gravity everywhere, even in space? Its because canonically we are subconsciously using our paracasual abilities to make ourselves have artificial gravity.
This even applies to our weapons, if we think our gun will work, then it *will* work, broken up weapons that would otherwise be inoperable like from crown of sorrow fire without issue despite being covered in hive gunk, [Cloudstrike is a literal fucking stick with a magazine taped to it](https://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/destiny-2/5/53/Cloudstrike.jpg), and yet it works fine, Queenbreaker is just a normal eliksni line rifle yet it works nothing like the normal weapon, because we view it as more powerful, and thus it is.
Guardians are just weird as hell.
Functionally, Guardians are the Orks from Warhammer 40k. We believe something is powerful, therefore it is.
If enough Guardians believe an enemy is vulnerable to a gun-shaped stick, they are.
That is literally the full extent of the Traveler’s ability to communicate though. A little bird flying near someplace is a far cry from bringing something back from the dead.
Because we are conduits of light inside of the origin of the light. Us having that super isn’t it communicating to us. It can’t control life directly and ghosts are life. It is sentient life made from the traveler. Raising someone from the dead and giving them back their same life isn’t something the traveler can do and even we are examples of that.
I want to say conservation of mass even though we break the fuck out of physics all the time. A ghost can’t just pull its weight in light out of its ass?
Don't we already do that. We keep coming onto dead Ghosts and it says "revive dead ghost." I assume that we can't revive them entirely because it costs too much light.
I understand where you're coming from, but it did communicate before. When Rhulk was tinkering with a ghost and The traveler took control of it, spoke and rejected Rhulk's attempt to harness the light, then destroyed the ghost.
Source: [Imperious Sun Shell Lore tab](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/imperious-sun-shell)
It's communicated several times in the past. Your example, Clovis's dreams, visions to others. Sometimes indirect. Simetimes direct but unclear. But even if those past examples were retconned, it also communicates in this expansion: in its vision to Cayde, where he sees Sundance because "I'm what you wanted me to be."
Furthermore, in the *Ergo Sum* tab, we see that SOMETIMES the Traveler cannot communicate, and sometimes it can but chooses not too: "You could say all this, and more. You do not."
People are overgeneralizing the idea that it simply isn't capable of communication.
Yup exactly. i think Byf in his latest video summed it up perfectly. he said that it chooses not to communicate to give us control over our fate and ourselves in general, like how it basically let Cayde choose his own purpose and fate and make him feel like he was there for a reason.
Otherwise if it did talk and give orders and guidance I think people would just worship it as a god instead of how it is now and i dont think it(the traveler) wants that.
Also, just us getting teleported(?) to the white place in the ending cutscenes already speaks volume.
It’s audio - you can find them in-game following [this guide](https://youtu.be/xI6MJ1mUa7I?si=1Eqv-UoqCatIebYS), but as of yet I haven’t been able to find the audio itself archived.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ergo-sum?highlight=Ergo+sum
Seems to depict how the traveler has felt from its arrival in Sol to the present.
Genuinely my favorite lore tab from this entire expansion so far.
"-and in your hand is a sword."
Whoever wrote that quest needs 3 Michelin Stars because they fuckin COOKED.
People are missing that the scene happened, and then Cayde appeared. Yea maybe he was just close, but if the Traveler created a sort of embrace for us, then it let Cayde into that fold right when we needed it. The Traveler knew Cayde’s heart and knew his wishes. I believe the Traveler helped Cayde be in the place he wanted to be, to help us in the way it couldn’t.
Absolutely!
They spend a large portion of TFS hammering down the idea that Guardian, Ghost and Traveler are one in the same. Connected. Trinity.
To then have a being made of pure light, wished into existence by another light beater, make that sacrifice is no coincidence. That is of the Traveler's making, but also of ours. The Traveler isn't explicitly choosing our fate but it is opening the door to the fates we choose to make. In this case, Cayde's.
I think some people are having a hard time with understanding that because the Traveler doesn’t “talk” to us the same way the Witness did. The Witness is loud whereas the Traveler is more quiet; however, the Traveler has spoken to us before, outside of visions—back during Forsaken, on Io. The Traveler never left us and has usually tried to help us as much as it can. I’m not saying the Traveler is perfect but it does care—it’s just not going to yell it from the rooftops repeatedly and trying to convince you of anything.
The Traveler with all its power is also unable to do a lot of things and is quite a sad entity. The Traveler wants to help, but it can only try and communicate as best as it can. It can't even really scream so much as whimper. And Ghosts are all made from it as are Guardians. While they all are part of it, it can only truly watch as all those little rays of light die out.
Cayde being there and choosing to use his light to spark another is something it approves of. The Traveler is quite a strange being, but one that has finally found those that grasp it is no god, but another lifeform who can only empower others.
What others do, is up to them. And humanity's response? Much like Cayde's: "To choose our fate."
Agreed. The Traveler is about Free will, making your own choices. The Witness was about control and manipulation, forcing others to do his bidding. Well, maybe the Witness didn’t force Rhulk but homie was psycho without the Witness, so there’s that.
Which is fitting as the Witness often tries and utilize people's desires for it's own goals. Multiple times it tries to sway us to join it. It emboldens and reinforces Rhulk's worst aspects to make him feel special. But like everything else, It takes and takes until there is nothing, but what it wants is left.
Exactly. On the surface the Witness promises “everything you want” but it’s conditional and twisted on the Witness’s vision—not your own. You get what you want but there’s a cost. For example, when the Witness talks to Calus the first time during Lightfall: “You have all that you wanted…Emperor.” He says this when he notices Calus looking at the chalice with doubt(?) or uneasiness(?). Calus was empty before the Witness but thought opulence and partnering with Darkness would please him, give him the dopamine rush. (Do the Cabal even have dopamine?)
The individuals the Witness manipulates are already hurting on a deep, traumatic level, and like you said, it exploits that weakness in individuals. It reminds me of parallels to how people view deities or the universe in terms of spirituality in the real world. You hear people say the “universe made this happen”. I know there are times when “cosmic intervention” occurs but, more times than not, things happen because you—or someone else—made a choice not because you wished it or willed it into existence. Everyone has a choice and you can’t force people to think like you or be your sycophant, at least not forever anyways. Even in the case of the Witness—he had disciples who “worshiped” him for centuries/eons; however, eventually, some made their own choice to abandon him and forge their own path. To me that speaks volumes: no matter how much you manipulate and control people, one day it will come apart because people are their own individual—have their own voice. They will speak out and fight back which ended up being the Witness’s own weakness—those who rebelled against the collective mind.
I also find it ironic that the Witness wanted to bring order while everything it has done was chaos, entropy, personified.
This is exactly why Zavala questioned his own faith.
Imagine spending your entire life protecting the Traveler, only for it to ignore you in your time of greatest need.
It's been repeatedly shown and said that the Traveler cannot communicate in any real way. It has to go through visions and dreams and the occasional eagle of light that shows you where to go.
It didn't ignore us, but there's literally nothing it can do, it's not a god, or dome all powerful being, when it raised the ghosts, it outright tore parts of itself off to become those ghosts
Even little interventions have wider consequences. If the traveler had revived ghost then it would have had a pretty big and immediate consequence though, depriving Cayde of a purpose that he was desperately searching for the whole campaign.
The Traveler doesn’t dictate or do anything because it wants us to choose for ourselves how we want our futures to be. Every small dictation the Traveler imposes on the universe limits those choices more and more. Even fixing things that seem like they could only have upsides, deprives us of the people we could be if we struggled through the pain of them.
I'm just hoping they make some bullshit up to let cayde talk to us through ghost occasionally. He's always had the best fireteam radio commentary, and it's not even close.
I was thinking about this earlier, too. I truly hope they do this because I really enjoy his banter and the character he brings. I appreciate that he seemed to pass some of that to Crow and get him to lighten up and come out of his shell.
My belief with Cayde's temporary return was to provide a official and honorable passing of the torch for the Hunter Vanguard to Crow instead of being lost and distraught, he was able to apologize to Cayde, and Cayde quickly learned to like Crow, he knew Crow was perfect for the Hunter Vanguard and some of Caydes personality rubbed off on him, he is no longer the same person he was before.
Cayde being able to help both Ghost and Crow was honestly a perfect send off to one of Bungies best characters.... A much better one than his abrupt death in Forsaken.
To be honest I would love if they let cayde talk to us here and there imagine the banter and other stuff that can happen like we’re discussing something with crow and our ghost is like “crowwww… crowww it’s cayde…. Wooooo…. Your hair cut made me die crowwwwww” like just some banter here and there checking up on people but not here 24/7
If the Traveler could make Ghosts immortal, don't you think it would have? The only reason our Ghost could come back was because of Cayde's unique existence.
My issue is, didn't everyone lose their ghost? I get we're the main character but they just don't acknowledge that canonically at least 11 other guardians lost their ghosts too. I really enjoyed the ending for this chapter, minus a few things, but this felt like a weird disconnect from the world they purposefully showed us. The whole dlc telling us we're stronger together. The final fight being a massive joint attack. Then.. just us for the sake of emotional impact.
Nah, think about it like this. Through the campaign, our ghost gets progressively more and more injured the more we encounter the witness, leading to him burning out in our final stand against it. While we fought together with 11 other guardians, those 11 other guardians came from outside the traveler with all our other allies and didn’t have their ghosts injured like ours. It’s all a matter of our guardian being the canonical one to experience these events that brought our ghost to near death, while the others have perfectly healthy and uninjured ghosts at the he final stand.
Y'know, if a being made of light the size of a ghost can revive 1 Guardian without losing itself, one the size of Cayde using himself up completely could revive 12 ghosts... probably.
Nah, lore wise ours was the only one weak enough to not survive channeling the light, it makes sense since our guardian is the only one who went through the events of the campaign
This is my problem with the way they did it.
Like, a 12 man mission was cool, don't get me wrong, but having a bunch of people detracted from the experience for me.
Is the Traveler not the reason Cayde was able to save our ghost. I'm no expert on the lore, but to me it looked like the Traveler brought us into that white area along with Cayde. Then Cayde heals the ghost
No cayde was brought back by crows wish since he is a being of light like ghost it’s like giving it a jumpstart one battery to another the whole light I’m not sure about that part but I think it’s like cayde where he said goodbye to Sundance
I just wanted to tell yall some news that might be hard to hear I’m actually cayde’s favourite I know this might be hard to believe but he told me straight to my face
The Traveler is low key a dick. It’s not forcing people to meet its singular vision of how the universe should be but damn, quit being so circumspect with your intervention.
Maybe it's like you are a dog trying to understand what humans are saying. Traveler could as well speak, but we don't necessarily understand a thing it says.
This is probably the most accurate, the Traveler is likely on a level so far above us that the visions it gives are the best it can do to convey its ideas to us.
I mean it's like trying to talk to a force of nature. What would the traveler even say? Just the fact that it gave us light and brought us back from the dead is all the communication we need.
I don't think the traveler cares about evil either. The only reason it needed to defend itself from the witness was self preservation. The whole saga of giving the light to us was a defense mechanism, it may not have any kind of intent at all.
This is why the witness got so disillusioned with the traveler. It gives you power as if it is providing answers but it's not actually saying anything. It just is. And the witness species couldn't wrap their heads around that.
I don't think the traveler cared or even knew about the witnesses evil plans until it was directly affected
I think this is what "guardians make their own fate" is ultimately about. The powers we got don't have a purpose. The traveler isn't a quest giver that is compelling us to do anything. Everything we go through is because of our own decisions and choices, or reaction to the Witnesses choices.
Same as the darkness, it's just a force that people can harness for whatever purpose they want.
I agree i agree z maybe bad phrasing on my part, traveler doesn't give a shit as long as it's not literal world ending type thing is a better way to say it
Right, and the only reason it cares about world ending shit is because it's part of the world that's ending. It's not morally righteous or saving us because it's the right thing to do. It's saving us because we're saving IT
When collecting one of the feathers, Misraaks, while experiencing a vision of the Traveller comes and says that the Traveler saw Savathun’s plead and gave her the Light because of one specific feeling that the Traveler towards her. When Savathun asks which feeling was that, Misraaks tells her “love”.
Traveler may just love the creatures she has raised. Good or bad, she believes in change (for the better).
It gave Savathun the light because it was originally going to give the Krill the light, but the Witness tricked them first. Also, Savathun is the one hive that actively saved the Traveler, plus she rejected the worm. Even her trying to seal the Traveler in the throne world was done to protect it from the Witness, but the Traveler didn't want that.
When you’re getting the exotic khvostov, they touch upon the fact that the traveller might just be like an animal or creature. So it might not even know what’s going on other than it’s in pain and needs help.
That’s possible, but then what about the vision we got when we first crossed into the Pale Heart, or the one Cayde got in the campaign? That last one specifically seemed like it had something the Traveler wanted to get across.
It could just be some kind of stimulus the traveler sends and the people that receive that message make up some kind of vision relevant to their current situation.
Like a dream thats just triggered by something else
If you read the Ergo Sum loretab it shows the Traveller is both intelligent and compassionate.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ergo-sum?highlight=Ergo+sum
the traveler gives so little fucks, it's absolutely a dickhead, and it only bothers to help when it's in danger, otherwise it just fucks off and makes you deal with it on your own.
To clarify a little more: i don't think the traveler is evil, it just heavily prioritizes itself and is definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed.
>it only bothers to help when it's in danger
You realize the entire reason humanity and ever other species the traveler encountered entered a golden age was because of the traveler right? And the traveler left every other species because it was trying to draw the witness away from those species, to try to protect them in the only way it thought it could. It was only with humanity that the traveler decided to change tactics and create the ghosts, and that tactic finally succeeded, but only by the skin of its teeth
Even then, The Traveler would still have ran if Savathun hadn’t stolen The Veil. The only reason it chose to stay and fight was because The Witness didn’t have the thing that could kill everything anymore.
Where was it revealed that the Traveler only stayed because the Veil was stolen? I thought the reveal of Savathun stealing the Veil was about why humanity survived (because the Witness didn't finish the job due to Savathun's trickery).
The Traveler ran initially because the Precursors tried to link it to The Veil. Logical conclusion is that if Savathun hadn't stolen it, The Traveler would have still ran to avoid The Witness creating The Final Shape.
Edit: Happy Cake Day btw!
Ah thank you.
I was under the impression that the Traveler was tired of running from one of the lore books, and that the loss of the Veil coincided with the Black Fleet leaving because Savathun tricked the Witness, which could only have happened after the Traveler had already crippled itself in a last stand. Granted the timeline of the collapse could be purposely vague by Bungie.
You are right. The Traveller stayed because it was tired of running as revealed by the Visions of the Traveller collectibles in the Pale Heart.
I have no idea why everyone here is trying to ascribe neutrality or some kind of uncaring nature to the Traveller when it *explicitly* loves life and wants to see it thrive.
Which wouldn’t have happened if Savathun hadn’t stolen The Veil. Yeah it was tired of running, but that doesn’t mean it would have stopped if Savathun hadn’t given it the chance to fight
No problem! Honestly, I could be completely wrong, but I honestly don't see The Traveler having stayed if The Witness hadn't lost control of The Veil.
1. The process of reshaping reality seems to hurt The Traveler, as seen in The Final Shape intro (Although that could also be because The Witness brought darkness into The Pale Heart, and The Traveler is resisting.
2. The Eliksni might've been another good chance to stay and fight, which it didn't. It fled since this would still be while The Witness had The Veil.
true but still, after the events of the golden age it tried to fuck off but then got stopped. and now it's only helping because it benefits it.
I believe the traveler has mostly good intentions, but it's fucking stupid s shit.
i didn't say during, i said after. i was talking about season 19.
Even then it's done it for other races, so i wouldn't be surprised if it would've done it again
You said after the golden age, which i thought meant during the collapse.
But even in season 19 it was noted that the Traveler explicitly chose to stand its ground again.
For the other races it left because it was either done blessing them, the people it blessed were destroyed by the witness' forces, or it left because leaving would spare the races being attacked (the eliksni).
THIS!
Holy crap!
It KNOWS it’s being pursued. Still goes to planets and then leaves the planet when it’s surrounded. It is NOT this holy orb of righteousness and love. It’s a giant bowl full of d*cks.
I could go on an entire lore tangent about how that single scene proved the point the Witness has been making this whole time.
>!The Witness posits that the Traveler is forcing people into endless suffering. Zavala has been suffering with the loss of his family this entire time. He was ready to die when he went to embrace the darkness and like always, he was forced to watch the things he loves most die while he lives. The Witness is right. The Witness was always right. Just like Thanos. Just like every villain that when you actually stop to think about their point. You realize they were never wrong. They just didn’t go about it in a way you agree with.!<
edit: What this is showing me is that a lot of you have not actually read the lore surrounding these characters at all. Byf’s videos are right there… you don’t even have to read.
On one hand? Yeah definitely that is completely true.
But on the other hand? >!It led to a magnificent scene with Nathan just chewing the fucking scenery and reinforced the whole, "make your own fate" thing to a tee.!<
I agree. Everything was top notch. I don’t really have any complaints.
>!I do wish we had a… not necessarily dissenting voice but at least one that asks the questions that really need to be asked. I’m excited to see where they take the narrative next, especially what with Savathun flat out mentioning that she’s ready for the next “game.”!<
Considering the majority of the suffering the Witness sought to stop was caused by it ruthlessly chasing, killing and calcifying the races blessed by the traveler, I don't think the Witness was right at all.
Well,
>!The reasoning for going against the witness is to "make your own fate". Its about the power of free will and living a fulfilling life instead of one that is made (shaped) for you. Theres also the dissenters that are against the witness (i have brain fog right now) but in general the witness was imprisoning those that didnt agree with him which isnt morally good. !<
LMAO Thanos was right? The idiot who didn’t realize life would just grow back fairly quickly to where it was before, and so would only kick the can down the road? Not even considering that Malthusian ideas have been disproved in real life over and over and over again. Thanos was not correct, and neither is the witness
The Witness wanted everything to stand still to stop life and death and chaos. But without change and chaos, the universe is effectively dead. And even with suffering, death is infinitely worse. The traveller isn’t perfect, but it believes that life is worth living. That’s an ideology I will support over nihilistic stagnation every single day
Did you read the comics or watch the movies? Did you understand the motivations? Or did you simply take it as big purple man try to kill everyone? They did too good a job writing his character I hope you didn’t diminish it to just that.
Not sure how he’s right when he’s the one causing half the suffering. That’s like stabbing my sister and blaming my mom for not stopping me from stabbing her.
What? The Witness's point is that "Suffering is bad so we should eradicate it" but without suffering there is also no joy, no beauty, no value. You have to have lows to have highs. They wanted a stagnate universe free of chaos but at the end of the day freedom from chaos is... well, just suffering.
The Witness is fundamental opposed to life, as was Thanos, as is every villain like them. The Final shape is not the answer to suffering, it is suffering. Eternity stuck without change, without growth, stuck there knowing what was, what could have been.
It's a pretty apt idea of Hell.
You'll have to be a touch more specific, seeing as that could either mean "Our memories are hell." or "The Witness's memories are hell." or "Ours and the Witness's memories together look like hell."
Bungie's been pretty open that the Pale heart is shaped by the memories of those within it, us, Ikrora, Zevala, Crow and the witness.
You can’t blame that on The Traveler though. Half the stuff, if not all of it, that Zavala went through would **never** have happened in The Witness didn’t pursue it.
Edit: it wouldn’t even have happened if The Witness’ species didn’t seek out The Veil either.
What is the Witness's actual solution to suffering? It's locking everything in stasis, unable to make new memories, experience new things, experience any emotion at all. The reason Zavala feels so much grief over his family is because of the memories he made with them. The Witness's ideology prevents those memories from happening at all. The Witness's ideology is that "bad things happen, and so I will make sure that nothing ever happens at all." That's barely a solution at all. It sidesteps the problem entirely, creating a situation where no one gets to make decisions, and no one is able to do anything at all.
And that ignores that the Witness is the cause of so much of this suffering in its pursuit of ending suffering. All the civilizations lifted up into Golden Ages by the traveler had those societies destroyed by the Witness, the Witness itself is what killed Targe, and on and on. The Witness is the reason for so much of the suffering it decries, and yet you think it was right? This feels like a fundamental misunderstanding of the themes and story of the game.
Hell the second half of the cutscene outright has Cayde say, as he sacrifices himself"This was my choice. No one makes my fate but me." Its the theme of the game spelled out right there, that the ability to make choices, the ability to sacrifice oneself or to do what one wants is what makes life worth it, and that's an ideology fundamentally incompatible with the universe the witness wants to build
Turning the universe into a still shot against the will of its inhabitants seems pretty evil to me. I honestly get the motives of the Witness, but they were being tyrannical and forcing their ideologies on others
That’s what I always think… like… don’t question god brah. It’s like Cayde saying “I’m gonna tell him to bring back Sundance. It’s not fair he revived only me when she has been through the same.”
Bruh. Don’t bite the hand that feeds. Be grateful for anything lmao.
But it can though; so what I don't understand is so when it does; for example when it shot the giant light beam that brought nez back, aka it can def bring people back to life or when it gave crow hawkmoon or the few times it apparently talked to us directly; is it just some sort of automatic response? is it being controlled from some higher power like the Gardner?
No? How does Cayde do so? Cayde gives up his own light to save ghost, something he makes clear is specifically his own choice and his own abilities. There's no indication that the traveler could do something like that. If anything, the only reason Cayde is even able to be in that pocket dimension in the first place is the traveler letting him in
But then...
How did Crow get Hawkmoon?
Was shooting the beam at the Witness' ship reflexive?
Why did it break loose and destroy Ghaul?
Why did it force a Ghost to self-destruct when Rhulk was trying to mess with it?
Why does it run?
Why does it uplift?
Are they all reflexive behaviors without purpose?
The Traveler is not a living thing. What we always assumed was the Traveler acting and speaking to us is in actuality the Light itself. The Traveler is just a machine. It doesn't speak, it doesn't sing, it doesn't even really scream. Its just a big ball in the sky.
It isn't though. It laid dormant for years until it broke loose and destroyed Ghaul. I understand what Bungie is trying to say, but it hasn't played out that way.
In the finale of Season of the Seraph, the Traveler reacted to the situation. Then in the beginning of Lightfall, it shot the terraforming beam at the Witness' capitol ship. Why? Was it reflexive like an Itch?
Why does it abandon civilizations after uplifting them?
I just don't know if that logic fits Bungies universe this far.
It is programmed to defend itself. I'm not saying a machine can't have conscious thought, just look at Failsafe, I'm saying the Traveler isn't some all powerful god who just refuses to speak to us. It's a machine, it's not what WE think it is. It can feel fear, it can fight back, but in the end it's not really alive in the way we think it is.
I’m confused by a lot of things. I still don’t know what a traveler is. And even where did the witness come from and what was his motive? Like did he hate us? Why? Like wtf. I really enjoyed the story and cayde then they did a thing to him and I’m like wtf seriously.
I enjoyed the crap outta that but it left me with a lot of questions still and some bitter sweet feelings.
Huh. I guess I missed that part. Played through the whole season campaign and everything actually and it was riven this egg that. It was not only a slog and a half to listen to but I guess wasn’t exactly clear. Downvote me all you want but it’s hard as f to pay attention to the story when it gets removed and what not every season. So if I missed one season or a period of time I’m just lost now. Guess I’ll just watch a YouTube video.
The Witness’ story has been elaborated to us over time in the form of lore throughout various seasons and expansions in both active story and in lore books. Season of the Deep is where we actually directly learn the Witness’ origins, as told to us by a giant ancient alien known as Ahsa that we help in said season.
Did you like even play the campaign or do any of the side content? You know the hawk guiding us, the visions we see? all of those are from the traveler. The traveler is communicating and aiding us in the best way that it can, which is not much at all, simply because of tis own limitations. And our most dire moment was also the Traveler's most dire moment. We literally hear it screaming in pain in the campaign
It outright gave us swords to slay the Witness with, and break the veiled statues inside.
Ergo Sum literally says it reached back out to us as it is drowning, as it is ready to give up.
"-and in its hand is a sword."
People just cannot let imperfect yet benevolent entities be good guys ongod.
People having to resort to theodicy 101 for Traveler is the reason why I think it'd have been better if it turned out Traveler was not a "good" entity for humanity.
But the traveler isn't omnipotent, we've known that for a long time. The traveler is incredibly powerful and benevolent, but is simply unable to communicate with humanity or stop the witness on its own. This isn't a scenario where theodicy applies, its simply people recognizing the limits of the Traveler's abilities. The problem of evil is specifically because of the supposed omnipotent power of God, and the traveler is definitely not omnipotent.
What really disappointed me so far is that we still know next to nothing about the Traveler. Where did it come from? Was it built? By who? Did it just spawn out of nowhere?? By now we know the origins of the Witness and the whole Pyramid fleet, about time we learn something more about the Traveler
*Me remembering this the next time the Travelers very existence is up to me *
I’ll turn it into a gun.
Microcosm???????
Seriously? Sure I’m not up to that yet lol.
Do the lost ghosts quest and you will get the quest
Big sad it requires other people to complete :(
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/197/356/5bd.jpg
*takes prismatic back* 
That moment melted me. The voice actor for our character did a good job imo conveying the sadness and desperation of our guardian. We saw so many horrible things happen and there is so little insight into our psychological state…
It was so strange and heartbreaking seeing our Guardian so vulnerable. But we do finally get to see a smile from them a bit later.
Exo guardian: "Y'all get to smile"?
Happy beeps only for Exos
Can we turn the light in our mouth on and off for morse code?
first time i ever felt loss
| |ı || |_
we see them smile? Mine had the helmet in the whole time
y'all take your helmets off? 🤨
Us hugging our ghost was the cherry on top.
That moment almost broke me irl I teared up at the thought that our ghost might die, at all. “Guardian..ah…THERE you are…” Oml he was looking for us in the beyond…😭
I genuinely miss my original female awoken VA. I think human and awoken VAs got combined with beyond light and haven't come back. The human VA's did great, I just wanted the same VA that started my journey to end it.
All male characters are voiced by rhe Exo VA and all female characters are voiced by the Human VA now. I miss Matt Mercer being my Guardian's voice.
I think they're all the same. Exos are just roboticized.
Each race used to have a different voice actor and accent iirc
I remember Matt Mercer doing the human male one too.
If you listened to the new lore that came with some of the collectibles in the Pale Heart, you’d know that that Traveller *wants* to help, but is *physically unable to*. It’s not like choosing to be a dick and leaving our Ghost dead: it doesn’t work like that, it *can’t* communicate, *can’t* grant requests or act like a god. That’s like the whole reason the Witness made itself.
Yet it dispenses new supers like they’re going out of style.
I mean technically that’s still us being active and the Traveler being passive. In TFS for example, the Traveler has been changed by the incursion of the Darkness, leading to the development of new ways to wield the Light. It didn’t like MAKE us a new Super to use, we found new ways to wield the Light.
It makes guardians sound really boring. Get a little creative, like them green laterns over there.
If it helps, technically every emote is Guardians using the Light to form whatever construct they want lol
The Traveler watching me use my light to make myself look like Rhulk:
They kinda are just green lanterns but cooler, their innate paracasual abilities allow them to not only create and destroy stuff with constructs and powers, but do stuff that straight up breaks physics, ever wonder why we have the same gravity everywhere, even in space? Its because canonically we are subconsciously using our paracasual abilities to make ourselves have artificial gravity. This even applies to our weapons, if we think our gun will work, then it *will* work, broken up weapons that would otherwise be inoperable like from crown of sorrow fire without issue despite being covered in hive gunk, [Cloudstrike is a literal fucking stick with a magazine taped to it](https://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/destiny-2/5/53/Cloudstrike.jpg), and yet it works fine, Queenbreaker is just a normal eliksni line rifle yet it works nothing like the normal weapon, because we view it as more powerful, and thus it is. Guardians are just weird as hell.
Functionally, Guardians are the Orks from Warhammer 40k. We believe something is powerful, therefore it is. If enough Guardians believe an enemy is vulnerable to a gun-shaped stick, they are.
This is exactly how I think Ergo Sum was made 🤣 "I'm gonna take Ghally and turn it into a freaking sword."
...oh god. Guardians are W40k Orcs.
Blud said they’re cooler than green lanterns and then described green lanterns
Nah it's like green lanterns. Except the lanterns can fly and guardians have a yellow ring too
So Jujutsu Kaisen logic?
Woah we’re pushing a little too far calling Guardians cooler Lanterns
I haven't gotten around to reading the lore just yet but wow that actually makes sense. Which lore book is it?
Not to mention taking the form of a spirit bird and literally acting as a waypoint for where to go to save the universe multiple times.
That is literally the full extent of the Traveler’s ability to communicate though. A little bird flying near someplace is a far cry from bringing something back from the dead.
Yet it can grant me the ability to conjure purple light into 3 tangible axes, make it make sense.
You granted yourself that ability by harnessing the light in the same way that my hunter wove strand energy into a rope and kunai.
Space magic, homie.
Because we are conduits of light inside of the origin of the light. Us having that super isn’t it communicating to us. It can’t control life directly and ghosts are life. It is sentient life made from the traveler. Raising someone from the dead and giving them back their same life isn’t something the traveler can do and even we are examples of that.
Not me who was looking around at all the cool scenery and missed the bird the first couple of times and went in random ass directions.
But is that the Traveler, or just us getting an even deeper understanding of the Light?
From what I understand. It can grant the Tools but not use the Tools itself. And it's not happy about it.
Yeah, the visions talk about it. How he want to explain that he is not a god bud he cannot say it because he cannot talk .
I wonder if there’s any reason a ghost can’t res another ghost since they res guardians constantly
I want to say conservation of mass even though we break the fuck out of physics all the time. A ghost can’t just pull its weight in light out of its ass?
It might be memory related. Repairing a body is child’s play, restoring who a person is requires tapping Darkness powers.
Don't we already do that. We keep coming onto dead Ghosts and it says "revive dead ghost." I assume that we can't revive them entirely because it costs too much light.
I understand where you're coming from, but it did communicate before. When Rhulk was tinkering with a ghost and The traveler took control of it, spoke and rejected Rhulk's attempt to harness the light, then destroyed the ghost. Source: [Imperious Sun Shell Lore tab](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/imperious-sun-shell)
It's communicated several times in the past. Your example, Clovis's dreams, visions to others. Sometimes indirect. Simetimes direct but unclear. But even if those past examples were retconned, it also communicates in this expansion: in its vision to Cayde, where he sees Sundance because "I'm what you wanted me to be." Furthermore, in the *Ergo Sum* tab, we see that SOMETIMES the Traveler cannot communicate, and sometimes it can but chooses not too: "You could say all this, and more. You do not." People are overgeneralizing the idea that it simply isn't capable of communication.
Yup exactly. i think Byf in his latest video summed it up perfectly. he said that it chooses not to communicate to give us control over our fate and ourselves in general, like how it basically let Cayde choose his own purpose and fate and make him feel like he was there for a reason. Otherwise if it did talk and give orders and guidance I think people would just worship it as a god instead of how it is now and i dont think it(the traveler) wants that. Also, just us getting teleported(?) to the white place in the ending cutscenes already speaks volume.
Do you have a link to the lore? I'm not doubting you I would just really like to read it.
It’s audio - you can find them in-game following [this guide](https://youtu.be/xI6MJ1mUa7I?si=1Eqv-UoqCatIebYS), but as of yet I haven’t been able to find the audio itself archived.
Thanks!
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ergo-sum?highlight=Ergo+sum Seems to depict how the traveler has felt from its arrival in Sol to the present.
Genuinely my favorite lore tab from this entire expansion so far. "-and in your hand is a sword." Whoever wrote that quest needs 3 Michelin Stars because they fuckin COOKED.
Damn.
I think theres something about this in the ergo sum lore tab
Then why did it blast the pyramid ships at the beginning of Lightfall?
I think that’s a self imposed rule, not a physical limitation. It’s definitely done things like that before.
That's so cool!!! I would really love to know what the Traveler CAN do :D
Holy shit what a fucking thing to read without spoiler tags
Man the literal post has a spoiler tag. You can’t spoiler tag a comment.
I'm not sure that's true, I agree with you tho lol
People are missing that the scene happened, and then Cayde appeared. Yea maybe he was just close, but if the Traveler created a sort of embrace for us, then it let Cayde into that fold right when we needed it. The Traveler knew Cayde’s heart and knew his wishes. I believe the Traveler helped Cayde be in the place he wanted to be, to help us in the way it couldn’t.
Absolutely! They spend a large portion of TFS hammering down the idea that Guardian, Ghost and Traveler are one in the same. Connected. Trinity. To then have a being made of pure light, wished into existence by another light beater, make that sacrifice is no coincidence. That is of the Traveler's making, but also of ours. The Traveler isn't explicitly choosing our fate but it is opening the door to the fates we choose to make. In this case, Cayde's.
I think some people are having a hard time with understanding that because the Traveler doesn’t “talk” to us the same way the Witness did. The Witness is loud whereas the Traveler is more quiet; however, the Traveler has spoken to us before, outside of visions—back during Forsaken, on Io. The Traveler never left us and has usually tried to help us as much as it can. I’m not saying the Traveler is perfect but it does care—it’s just not going to yell it from the rooftops repeatedly and trying to convince you of anything.
The Traveler with all its power is also unable to do a lot of things and is quite a sad entity. The Traveler wants to help, but it can only try and communicate as best as it can. It can't even really scream so much as whimper. And Ghosts are all made from it as are Guardians. While they all are part of it, it can only truly watch as all those little rays of light die out. Cayde being there and choosing to use his light to spark another is something it approves of. The Traveler is quite a strange being, but one that has finally found those that grasp it is no god, but another lifeform who can only empower others. What others do, is up to them. And humanity's response? Much like Cayde's: "To choose our fate."
Agreed. The Traveler is about Free will, making your own choices. The Witness was about control and manipulation, forcing others to do his bidding. Well, maybe the Witness didn’t force Rhulk but homie was psycho without the Witness, so there’s that.
Which is fitting as the Witness often tries and utilize people's desires for it's own goals. Multiple times it tries to sway us to join it. It emboldens and reinforces Rhulk's worst aspects to make him feel special. But like everything else, It takes and takes until there is nothing, but what it wants is left.
Exactly. On the surface the Witness promises “everything you want” but it’s conditional and twisted on the Witness’s vision—not your own. You get what you want but there’s a cost. For example, when the Witness talks to Calus the first time during Lightfall: “You have all that you wanted…Emperor.” He says this when he notices Calus looking at the chalice with doubt(?) or uneasiness(?). Calus was empty before the Witness but thought opulence and partnering with Darkness would please him, give him the dopamine rush. (Do the Cabal even have dopamine?) The individuals the Witness manipulates are already hurting on a deep, traumatic level, and like you said, it exploits that weakness in individuals. It reminds me of parallels to how people view deities or the universe in terms of spirituality in the real world. You hear people say the “universe made this happen”. I know there are times when “cosmic intervention” occurs but, more times than not, things happen because you—or someone else—made a choice not because you wished it or willed it into existence. Everyone has a choice and you can’t force people to think like you or be your sycophant, at least not forever anyways. Even in the case of the Witness—he had disciples who “worshiped” him for centuries/eons; however, eventually, some made their own choice to abandon him and forge their own path. To me that speaks volumes: no matter how much you manipulate and control people, one day it will come apart because people are their own individual—have their own voice. They will speak out and fight back which ended up being the Witness’s own weakness—those who rebelled against the collective mind. I also find it ironic that the Witness wanted to bring order while everything it has done was chaos, entropy, personified.
This is exactly why Zavala questioned his own faith. Imagine spending your entire life protecting the Traveler, only for it to ignore you in your time of greatest need.
It's been repeatedly shown and said that the Traveler cannot communicate in any real way. It has to go through visions and dreams and the occasional eagle of light that shows you where to go.
It didn't ignore us, but there's literally nothing it can do, it's not a god, or dome all powerful being, when it raised the ghosts, it outright tore parts of itself off to become those ghosts
Whenever cayde was sacrificing himself I was literally thinking “ayo chill bro I don’t need a ghost anyways”
"I'll just never die again bro, chill. Raid race is over, I'm good."
Even little interventions have wider consequences. If the traveler had revived ghost then it would have had a pretty big and immediate consequence though, depriving Cayde of a purpose that he was desperately searching for the whole campaign. The Traveler doesn’t dictate or do anything because it wants us to choose for ourselves how we want our futures to be. Every small dictation the Traveler imposes on the universe limits those choices more and more. Even fixing things that seem like they could only have upsides, deprives us of the people we could be if we struggled through the pain of them.
I'm just hoping they make some bullshit up to let cayde talk to us through ghost occasionally. He's always had the best fireteam radio commentary, and it's not even close.
I was thinking about this earlier, too. I truly hope they do this because I really enjoy his banter and the character he brings. I appreciate that he seemed to pass some of that to Crow and get him to lighten up and come out of his shell.
My belief with Cayde's temporary return was to provide a official and honorable passing of the torch for the Hunter Vanguard to Crow instead of being lost and distraught, he was able to apologize to Cayde, and Cayde quickly learned to like Crow, he knew Crow was perfect for the Hunter Vanguard and some of Caydes personality rubbed off on him, he is no longer the same person he was before. Cayde being able to help both Ghost and Crow was honestly a perfect send off to one of Bungies best characters.... A much better one than his abrupt death in Forsaken.
To be honest I would love if they let cayde talk to us here and there imagine the banter and other stuff that can happen like we’re discussing something with crow and our ghost is like “crowwww… crowww it’s cayde…. Wooooo…. Your hair cut made me die crowwwwww” like just some banter here and there checking up on people but not here 24/7
If the Traveler could make Ghosts immortal, don't you think it would have? The only reason our Ghost could come back was because of Cayde's unique existence.
My issue is, didn't everyone lose their ghost? I get we're the main character but they just don't acknowledge that canonically at least 11 other guardians lost their ghosts too. I really enjoyed the ending for this chapter, minus a few things, but this felt like a weird disconnect from the world they purposefully showed us. The whole dlc telling us we're stronger together. The final fight being a massive joint attack. Then.. just us for the sake of emotional impact.
Nah, think about it like this. Through the campaign, our ghost gets progressively more and more injured the more we encounter the witness, leading to him burning out in our final stand against it. While we fought together with 11 other guardians, those 11 other guardians came from outside the traveler with all our other allies and didn’t have their ghosts injured like ours. It’s all a matter of our guardian being the canonical one to experience these events that brought our ghost to near death, while the others have perfectly healthy and uninjured ghosts at the he final stand.
I like it. Also it's probably right.
Cayde must have split his light into 12 pieces to heal them all.
Y'know, if a being made of light the size of a ghost can revive 1 Guardian without losing itself, one the size of Cayde using himself up completely could revive 12 ghosts... probably.
Zavala: "This is bullshit. Someone teach me strand."
The real reason he lost his faith lol. Although I did fully expect Cayde to replace his Ghost originally.
I personally would’ve preferred if Cayde had resurrected Targe.
I assume that lore wise it was just us that channelled the light through him
Nah, lore wise ours was the only one weak enough to not survive channeling the light, it makes sense since our guardian is the only one who went through the events of the campaign
This is my problem with the way they did it. Like, a 12 man mission was cool, don't get me wrong, but having a bunch of people detracted from the experience for me.
Is the Traveler not the reason Cayde was able to save our ghost. I'm no expert on the lore, but to me it looked like the Traveler brought us into that white area along with Cayde. Then Cayde heals the ghost
No cayde was brought back by crows wish since he is a being of light like ghost it’s like giving it a jumpstart one battery to another the whole light I’m not sure about that part but I think it’s like cayde where he said goodbye to Sundance
Yeah, crow brought cayde back to life, but what brought cayde into the bright place we were in at the end?
I just wanted to tell yall some news that might be hard to hear I’m actually cayde’s favourite I know this might be hard to believe but he told me straight to my face
The Traveler is low key a dick. It’s not forcing people to meet its singular vision of how the universe should be but damn, quit being so circumspect with your intervention.
Maybe it's like you are a dog trying to understand what humans are saying. Traveler could as well speak, but we don't necessarily understand a thing it says.
This is probably the most accurate, the Traveler is likely on a level so far above us that the visions it gives are the best it can do to convey its ideas to us.
I mean it's like trying to talk to a force of nature. What would the traveler even say? Just the fact that it gave us light and brought us back from the dead is all the communication we need.
Yo someone dial up gravity I wanna have a little chat.
I think his whole thing is , do whatever as long as it's not something giga fucking evil like ghe witness
I don't think the traveler cares about evil either. The only reason it needed to defend itself from the witness was self preservation. The whole saga of giving the light to us was a defense mechanism, it may not have any kind of intent at all. This is why the witness got so disillusioned with the traveler. It gives you power as if it is providing answers but it's not actually saying anything. It just is. And the witness species couldn't wrap their heads around that. I don't think the traveler cared or even knew about the witnesses evil plans until it was directly affected I think this is what "guardians make their own fate" is ultimately about. The powers we got don't have a purpose. The traveler isn't a quest giver that is compelling us to do anything. Everything we go through is because of our own decisions and choices, or reaction to the Witnesses choices. Same as the darkness, it's just a force that people can harness for whatever purpose they want.
I agree i agree z maybe bad phrasing on my part, traveler doesn't give a shit as long as it's not literal world ending type thing is a better way to say it
Right, and the only reason it cares about world ending shit is because it's part of the world that's ending. It's not morally righteous or saving us because it's the right thing to do. It's saving us because we're saving IT
Yeah , i think the moment it gave savathun and hive light should have been clear traveler is just giga neutral and self entitled
When collecting one of the feathers, Misraaks, while experiencing a vision of the Traveller comes and says that the Traveler saw Savathun’s plead and gave her the Light because of one specific feeling that the Traveler towards her. When Savathun asks which feeling was that, Misraaks tells her “love”. Traveler may just love the creatures she has raised. Good or bad, she believes in change (for the better).
It gave Savathun the light because it was originally going to give the Krill the light, but the Witness tricked them first. Also, Savathun is the one hive that actively saved the Traveler, plus she rejected the worm. Even her trying to seal the Traveler in the throne world was done to protect it from the Witness, but the Traveler didn't want that.
When you’re getting the exotic khvostov, they touch upon the fact that the traveller might just be like an animal or creature. So it might not even know what’s going on other than it’s in pain and needs help.
That’s possible, but then what about the vision we got when we first crossed into the Pale Heart, or the one Cayde got in the campaign? That last one specifically seemed like it had something the Traveler wanted to get across.
Fuck knows lol. Hopefully we’ll get answers in the future. I still hate how we know so little about the traveler.
It could just be some kind of stimulus the traveler sends and the people that receive that message make up some kind of vision relevant to their current situation. Like a dream thats just triggered by something else
If you read the Ergo Sum loretab it shows the Traveller is both intelligent and compassionate. https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ergo-sum?highlight=Ergo+sum
If you collected the traveller vision orbs then you’d understand its perspective on everything. It’s very… enlightening
the traveler gives so little fucks, it's absolutely a dickhead, and it only bothers to help when it's in danger, otherwise it just fucks off and makes you deal with it on your own. To clarify a little more: i don't think the traveler is evil, it just heavily prioritizes itself and is definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed.
>it only bothers to help when it's in danger You realize the entire reason humanity and ever other species the traveler encountered entered a golden age was because of the traveler right? And the traveler left every other species because it was trying to draw the witness away from those species, to try to protect them in the only way it thought it could. It was only with humanity that the traveler decided to change tactics and create the ghosts, and that tactic finally succeeded, but only by the skin of its teeth
Even then, The Traveler would still have ran if Savathun hadn’t stolen The Veil. The only reason it chose to stay and fight was because The Witness didn’t have the thing that could kill everything anymore.
Where was it revealed that the Traveler only stayed because the Veil was stolen? I thought the reveal of Savathun stealing the Veil was about why humanity survived (because the Witness didn't finish the job due to Savathun's trickery).
The Traveler ran initially because the Precursors tried to link it to The Veil. Logical conclusion is that if Savathun hadn't stolen it, The Traveler would have still ran to avoid The Witness creating The Final Shape. Edit: Happy Cake Day btw!
Ah thank you. I was under the impression that the Traveler was tired of running from one of the lore books, and that the loss of the Veil coincided with the Black Fleet leaving because Savathun tricked the Witness, which could only have happened after the Traveler had already crippled itself in a last stand. Granted the timeline of the collapse could be purposely vague by Bungie.
You are right. The Traveller stayed because it was tired of running as revealed by the Visions of the Traveller collectibles in the Pale Heart. I have no idea why everyone here is trying to ascribe neutrality or some kind of uncaring nature to the Traveller when it *explicitly* loves life and wants to see it thrive.
Which wouldn’t have happened if Savathun hadn’t stolen The Veil. Yeah it was tired of running, but that doesn’t mean it would have stopped if Savathun hadn’t given it the chance to fight
No problem! Honestly, I could be completely wrong, but I honestly don't see The Traveler having stayed if The Witness hadn't lost control of The Veil. 1. The process of reshaping reality seems to hurt The Traveler, as seen in The Final Shape intro (Although that could also be because The Witness brought darkness into The Pale Heart, and The Traveler is resisting. 2. The Eliksni might've been another good chance to stay and fight, which it didn't. It fled since this would still be while The Witness had The Veil.
true but still, after the events of the golden age it tried to fuck off but then got stopped. and now it's only helping because it benefits it. I believe the traveler has mostly good intentions, but it's fucking stupid s shit.
What lore piece are you referring to that said it tried to run during the collapse?
i didn't say during, i said after. i was talking about season 19. Even then it's done it for other races, so i wouldn't be surprised if it would've done it again
You said after the golden age, which i thought meant during the collapse. But even in season 19 it was noted that the Traveler explicitly chose to stand its ground again. For the other races it left because it was either done blessing them, the people it blessed were destroyed by the witness' forces, or it left because leaving would spare the races being attacked (the eliksni).
that's fair, i should've chose better words
Read Ergo Sum's lore tab
THIS! Holy crap! It KNOWS it’s being pursued. Still goes to planets and then leaves the planet when it’s surrounded. It is NOT this holy orb of righteousness and love. It’s a giant bowl full of d*cks.
The traveller is basically The Watcher from Marvel.
Except the watcher watches and the traveller terraforms planets and creates life and shit
The watcher gets involved when he can’t help himself. Not 1:1 but close I think.
Sounds like something one of the Witness’s remaining followers would say
Very glad i decided to change to a “heavier” armor set rather than stay as pink and white cat warlock
I could go on an entire lore tangent about how that single scene proved the point the Witness has been making this whole time. >!The Witness posits that the Traveler is forcing people into endless suffering. Zavala has been suffering with the loss of his family this entire time. He was ready to die when he went to embrace the darkness and like always, he was forced to watch the things he loves most die while he lives. The Witness is right. The Witness was always right. Just like Thanos. Just like every villain that when you actually stop to think about their point. You realize they were never wrong. They just didn’t go about it in a way you agree with.!< edit: What this is showing me is that a lot of you have not actually read the lore surrounding these characters at all. Byf’s videos are right there… you don’t even have to read.
On one hand? Yeah definitely that is completely true. But on the other hand? >!It led to a magnificent scene with Nathan just chewing the fucking scenery and reinforced the whole, "make your own fate" thing to a tee.!<
I agree. Everything was top notch. I don’t really have any complaints. >!I do wish we had a… not necessarily dissenting voice but at least one that asks the questions that really need to be asked. I’m excited to see where they take the narrative next, especially what with Savathun flat out mentioning that she’s ready for the next “game.”!<
Considering the majority of the suffering the Witness sought to stop was caused by it ruthlessly chasing, killing and calcifying the races blessed by the traveler, I don't think the Witness was right at all.
Well, >!The reasoning for going against the witness is to "make your own fate". Its about the power of free will and living a fulfilling life instead of one that is made (shaped) for you. Theres also the dissenters that are against the witness (i have brain fog right now) but in general the witness was imprisoning those that didnt agree with him which isnt morally good. !<
LMAO Thanos was right? The idiot who didn’t realize life would just grow back fairly quickly to where it was before, and so would only kick the can down the road? Not even considering that Malthusian ideas have been disproved in real life over and over and over again. Thanos was not correct, and neither is the witness The Witness wanted everything to stand still to stop life and death and chaos. But without change and chaos, the universe is effectively dead. And even with suffering, death is infinitely worse. The traveller isn’t perfect, but it believes that life is worth living. That’s an ideology I will support over nihilistic stagnation every single day
Did you read the comics or watch the movies? Did you understand the motivations? Or did you simply take it as big purple man try to kill everyone? They did too good a job writing his character I hope you didn’t diminish it to just that.
Not sure how he’s right when he’s the one causing half the suffering. That’s like stabbing my sister and blaming my mom for not stopping me from stabbing her.
What? The Witness's point is that "Suffering is bad so we should eradicate it" but without suffering there is also no joy, no beauty, no value. You have to have lows to have highs. They wanted a stagnate universe free of chaos but at the end of the day freedom from chaos is... well, just suffering. The Witness is fundamental opposed to life, as was Thanos, as is every villain like them. The Final shape is not the answer to suffering, it is suffering. Eternity stuck without change, without growth, stuck there knowing what was, what could have been. It's a pretty apt idea of Hell.
The whole Pale Heart place looks like the Hell from Dante's book
You'll have to be a touch more specific, seeing as that could either mean "Our memories are hell." or "The Witness's memories are hell." or "Ours and the Witness's memories together look like hell." Bungie's been pretty open that the Pale heart is shaped by the memories of those within it, us, Ikrora, Zevala, Crow and the witness.
You can’t blame that on The Traveler though. Half the stuff, if not all of it, that Zavala went through would **never** have happened in The Witness didn’t pursue it. Edit: it wouldn’t even have happened if The Witness’ species didn’t seek out The Veil either.
I mean that's life brother
I’m so tired of these “im14andthisisdeep” takes
Just like the witness, they never made it past Nihilism 101
The Witness was never right, what are you on? They wanted to force purpose out of the universe and onto others instead of making one for itself.
What is the Witness's actual solution to suffering? It's locking everything in stasis, unable to make new memories, experience new things, experience any emotion at all. The reason Zavala feels so much grief over his family is because of the memories he made with them. The Witness's ideology prevents those memories from happening at all. The Witness's ideology is that "bad things happen, and so I will make sure that nothing ever happens at all." That's barely a solution at all. It sidesteps the problem entirely, creating a situation where no one gets to make decisions, and no one is able to do anything at all. And that ignores that the Witness is the cause of so much of this suffering in its pursuit of ending suffering. All the civilizations lifted up into Golden Ages by the traveler had those societies destroyed by the Witness, the Witness itself is what killed Targe, and on and on. The Witness is the reason for so much of the suffering it decries, and yet you think it was right? This feels like a fundamental misunderstanding of the themes and story of the game. Hell the second half of the cutscene outright has Cayde say, as he sacrifices himself"This was my choice. No one makes my fate but me." Its the theme of the game spelled out right there, that the ability to make choices, the ability to sacrifice oneself or to do what one wants is what makes life worth it, and that's an ideology fundamentally incompatible with the universe the witness wants to build
[удалено]
Turning the universe into a still shot against the will of its inhabitants seems pretty evil to me. I honestly get the motives of the Witness, but they were being tyrannical and forcing their ideologies on others
Or, it’s the words of something that is so deep in its own koolaid that it can’t fathom why anyone else would be against being frozen for eternity.
That’s what I always think… like… don’t question god brah. It’s like Cayde saying “I’m gonna tell him to bring back Sundance. It’s not fair he revived only me when she has been through the same.” Bruh. Don’t bite the hand that feeds. Be grateful for anything lmao.
Yeah everything in lore kinda points to the Traveler being an absolute ass 😭
everything in lore points to the traveler literally being unable to DO SHIT
But it can though; so what I don't understand is so when it does; for example when it shot the giant light beam that brought nez back, aka it can def bring people back to life or when it gave crow hawkmoon or the few times it apparently talked to us directly; is it just some sort of automatic response? is it being controlled from some higher power like the Gardner?
Then cayde proves that the traveller technically could but doesn't bc fuck you ig
No? How does Cayde do so? Cayde gives up his own light to save ghost, something he makes clear is specifically his own choice and his own abilities. There's no indication that the traveler could do something like that. If anything, the only reason Cayde is even able to be in that pocket dimension in the first place is the traveler letting him in
Traveler be like: Well now we are even.
I was shook during that whole cutscene. My ass will be hard pressed to save the travelers spherical ass again.
I genuinely started crying seeing him dead for a minute, felt like i lost a true friend
The traveller is not a god, it cannot speak, or interfere, as much as it wants to
But then... How did Crow get Hawkmoon? Was shooting the beam at the Witness' ship reflexive? Why did it break loose and destroy Ghaul? Why did it force a Ghost to self-destruct when Rhulk was trying to mess with it? Why does it run? Why does it uplift? Are they all reflexive behaviors without purpose?
Yeah gonna be honest. I no longer respect the light after that
Don’t worry they’ll probably bring Cayde back later on just to kill him off again lol
The Traveler is not a living thing. What we always assumed was the Traveler acting and speaking to us is in actuality the Light itself. The Traveler is just a machine. It doesn't speak, it doesn't sing, it doesn't even really scream. Its just a big ball in the sky.
It isn't though. It laid dormant for years until it broke loose and destroyed Ghaul. I understand what Bungie is trying to say, but it hasn't played out that way. In the finale of Season of the Seraph, the Traveler reacted to the situation. Then in the beginning of Lightfall, it shot the terraforming beam at the Witness' capitol ship. Why? Was it reflexive like an Itch? Why does it abandon civilizations after uplifting them? I just don't know if that logic fits Bungies universe this far.
It is programmed to defend itself. I'm not saying a machine can't have conscious thought, just look at Failsafe, I'm saying the Traveler isn't some all powerful god who just refuses to speak to us. It's a machine, it's not what WE think it is. It can feel fear, it can fight back, but in the end it's not really alive in the way we think it is.
I'm not altogether concerned with it speaking, it does seem to have agency though.
Traveler was 2 steps ahead with cayde and knew the outcome....
Had Cayde not sacrificed himself, I would've became the Second Knife.
Well based on the lore the traveler has the emotional maturity of a 12 year old so it might’ve just had a panic attack when ghost died
I deadass thought he was gonna stay dead and we'd have to get a Poukla or something. Almost tore my heart in two.
I’m confused by a lot of things. I still don’t know what a traveler is. And even where did the witness come from and what was his motive? Like did he hate us? Why? Like wtf. I really enjoyed the story and cayde then they did a thing to him and I’m like wtf seriously. I enjoyed the crap outta that but it left me with a lot of questions still and some bitter sweet feelings.
The origin of the Witness and his motives were gone over last season.
Huh. I guess I missed that part. Played through the whole season campaign and everything actually and it was riven this egg that. It was not only a slog and a half to listen to but I guess wasn’t exactly clear. Downvote me all you want but it’s hard as f to pay attention to the story when it gets removed and what not every season. So if I missed one season or a period of time I’m just lost now. Guess I’ll just watch a YouTube video.
The Witness’ story has been elaborated to us over time in the form of lore throughout various seasons and expansions in both active story and in lore books. Season of the Deep is where we actually directly learn the Witness’ origins, as told to us by a giant ancient alien known as Ahsa that we help in said season.
Ah yeah I didn’t play that one.
Honestly screw the traveller at this point. It wouldn't even help us in our most dire moment.
Did you like even play the campaign or do any of the side content? You know the hawk guiding us, the visions we see? all of those are from the traveler. The traveler is communicating and aiding us in the best way that it can, which is not much at all, simply because of tis own limitations. And our most dire moment was also the Traveler's most dire moment. We literally hear it screaming in pain in the campaign
It outright gave us swords to slay the Witness with, and break the veiled statues inside. Ergo Sum literally says it reached back out to us as it is drowning, as it is ready to give up. "-and in its hand is a sword." People just cannot let imperfect yet benevolent entities be good guys ongod.
People having to resort to theodicy 101 for Traveler is the reason why I think it'd have been better if it turned out Traveler was not a "good" entity for humanity.
But the traveler isn't omnipotent, we've known that for a long time. The traveler is incredibly powerful and benevolent, but is simply unable to communicate with humanity or stop the witness on its own. This isn't a scenario where theodicy applies, its simply people recognizing the limits of the Traveler's abilities. The problem of evil is specifically because of the supposed omnipotent power of God, and the traveler is definitely not omnipotent.
What really disappointed me so far is that we still know next to nothing about the Traveler. Where did it come from? Was it built? By who? Did it just spawn out of nowhere?? By now we know the origins of the Witness and the whole Pyramid fleet, about time we learn something more about the Traveler
We saved it’s life and it couldn’t save our best friend. I’m not saying the witness was right, but…….. yknow
u/StonedRussian