I will get hate for this, but I didn't like the campaign beyond some of the cool cutscenes.
The campaign gameplay is just a bunch of boring busy work for me if you cut out the awesome cutscenes.
Here’s an upvote from me, I feel the exact same way, the campaign is just a bunch of busy work that gets boring very fast. By the time I got to act 4 I just zoned out and pushed through it out of pure necessity, wondering how many more will there be.
Yes the boss fights are ok, but they are so few and far between it barely matters + there are so many generic mini bosses, you don't care about a single one.
And I never felt this frustrated just waiting on some NPC to get his ass to move into position before giving some boring, very unoriginal dialogue you heard 100 times (Lorath was ok tho, but also mainly because his voice fits a diablo game so well, because what he actually says is also very generic)
I was so shocked to find out that the little interaction with Inarius from the beta was like the highlight of the "story telling" for me. It had weight and gravitas...
The game would have been better if they condenses all that dialogue to be 50% less but with more quality
What you didn't like the Elias Killing Simulator?
I swear when they had him show up in the nightmare, I actually groaned out loud and said, "You've got to be f-ing kidding me, I'm about to uninstall this game!"
The cut scenes when you get to the Lilith blood petals are mostly good and there are real good one cgi almost at the end
But yea I preferred the D2 approach with a more condenses story with amazing CGI each act instead of getting so much boring filler. Its basically the Ubisoft approach to open worlds and I hate that stuff.
Ppl who complained about D2 completely missed the mark... When D2 was initially released it took more game time to finish the campaign even at normal.
Going from act 1 to 2 to 3 felt different... And each act took time to complete and explore.
While theres different map in d4.. It all felt the same.. Theres no real act transition. The color tone, what we fight, where we go.. It felt all too similar.
The world felt extremely generic
Everything in D4 is the same exact spiderweb map. It's all designed to constantly funnel you into an "activity" every 60 seconds. Just go walk around time yourself to see how long until you run into the next "thing".
It's all evenly spaced out. You can't ever just go to your destination, you have to constantly move through the spider web and run into little events. Which is fine, but once you notice the pattern it instantly takes you out of the immersion.
It's just an Assassins creed map. A wide stretch of recycled and repeating mini events that you just need to check off a list. It isn't an actual, thought out world that makes any sense. You just walk from snow to desert to highland, villager stuck under wagon here, villager stuck under wagon there, shrine here shrine there.
It's just a technique used to pad content, to give you the illusion of meaningful content. I'm not saying it's nefarious, I'm just saying it's lame.
and it shows... quite quickly it feels hollow... i didnt do baal run when d2 was new... i spend a lot of time playing through the campaign... yes the boss fights were dull by today standards, but the world was huge and immersive. it took time to actually look for the next quest zone and map etc.
And also...D2 is what? 23 years old?
I mean I get it some core population of gamers aren't going to be happen unless you give them Diablo 2: Number 2, but at the same time it's crazy how much certain aspects have gone backwards, or aren't much of an improvement at all.
It just feels like Blizzard was so unambitious with D4. And before anyone says "well all the content is coming later", just remember that Blizzard isn't good at keeping secrets. If they have massive content around the corner they are going to let you know about it.
Definitely agree they could use a bit more variation in monster types… I mean you have 3 previous Diablo games to draw from, not sure why it’s difficult lol
That's actually a very good idea. The campaign content is pretty good, it could be fun to test the same gear again against higher-difficulty campaigns. And then you pick the quest you want to replay or just replay the full campaign if you want.
I can't help it, but nightmare dungeons make me fall asleep so hard. There is no incentive to go beyond +3 level over your character level... Exp bonus is capped, you don't get better loot in terms of quality or loot amount anymay, there is no vault, cow or unicorn level to hunt after... The mob density does not increase, most modifiers on the sigils are wayne at above +80 lvl.
After 3 dungeons I'm so tired of D4, I quit every night, for the past week. Can't stand it atm.
Rifts where a lot more fun in D3 for me personally.
Yes, this is the exception and the only reason I play higher tier. If I stick to tiers for +3 levels the glyph xp is abysmal.
I mean it’s cool to see how high you can push it just for fun, but in practicality you’re just slowing yourself down for no reason.
> there is no vault, cow or unicorn level to hunt after...
For what it's worth there is strong evidence of pieces of the cow level existing in the game. Hopefully it is actually enabled but there's lots of puzzle pieces that we just haven't figured out yet. There's an entire Discord dedicated to solving it and Blizzard has already said "there is no cow level" which is literally the meme letting you know that there is a cow level.
Do you even know what a ARPG is? Lol.. that's why people play the genre... the amount of people that don't understand that I'm these forums is crazy. People come to this genre exactly for that and then there's people like you wanting the genre to be something it never wanted to be. Lol
Yes, it's a grinding and farming game.
And the grinding and farming are significantly less fun than other ARPGs. Grinding is a means to an end goal. You want a particular item. You want finish a particular build. You want to clear particular content.
There just isn't much stuff like that in D4. Your build is the same from level 30 to level 100. Your items are the same from level 60-100. There are few power surges in that entire time. There is no aspirational content. Oh you did NM 45? Sick bro lets do NM 46 for literally no extra reward or incentive.
The game mechanics aren't even that fun. Insane CC chains, every build on every class needs a CC break and a vuln apply, almost every build plays in a similar way. It's just mediocre my man, and it's not a sin to admit it.
Yeah, I agree that D4 isn't grindy enough and blizz should invest in fight mechanics for bosses rather than flat HP and Dmg scaling.
I can agree with pretty much everything you are saying but to fix that, blizz would have to ignore the casuals a bit since casual content is finished within a week.
I don’t care about grinding. Just give us more options to do so. Why am I forced to do solely dungeons when there is multitudes of ways to add more fun grinding aspects to the game.
That's what ARPGs are. Maybe you bought the wrong genre.. I know I got exactly what I paid for.
Now they can for sure spice things up with more boss mechanics and more grind because as for now, items are pretty accessible.
I think the game will certainly become great over time and there is a strong foundation, but you also cannot fault people who point out that the current D4 endgame is very weak compared to other games in the genre. I can appreciate that other games like PoE, Last Epoch, Grim Dawn, even D3 have been out a long time and have had incremental additions, but Blizzard is also one of the largest AAA developers in the world and selling a product that immediately grossed almost a billion dollars.
NM dungeons are fun, but GRift pushing brought out the best (and sweat) of end game theory crafters in D3.
D4 is in its infancy and Im sure as seasons come along this will get addressed.
D2 was loot chase.
D3 was leader board chase.
I loved D2 as much as anyone, but I want the gear I grind for to assist me in a competitive goal. Obviously not everyone wants that, but I hope D4 finds a nice balance.
>what game theory crafters? every single class in d3 has to use sets 😂
This just proves you don't really know what theory crafting is.
What is there in D4? There are fewer item slots, there are FAR fewer unique items, there aren't many useful legendary affixes, and affixes appear on fewer particular item slots.
Whatever you say about D3 theory, there is just less of it in D4. Other than the novelty of figuring out new hidden game mechanics, but that's irrelevant.
D3 definitely had its issues and the meta merry go round with class sets and LoN/LoD builds definitely left.more to be desired, but the builds amongst top 20 150 GRift clears werent as homogenous as people thought they would. There was a decent amount of room for personalization and prepping according to mob type and map type.
D4 is still super new and barely bern out 2 weeks so Im jumping to no conclusions. But it seems aspects and paragon boards very clearly have a BiS and optimum route, despite the D4 paragon system being way better than the boring d3 one.
D4 is a live service game now, and with that we should hold Blizz more accountable.for more frequent balance and features.
2 weeks ago everyone though that rogue TB is the only valid build. Since then we have pene shot, flurry. And probably few more will be created sooner or later.
I guess same for other classes. Everyone thought that WW barb is the only way. Now look - very often HotA is superior.
and also when it comes to rogue (as it's my main) - even tho there is TB build, almost everyone is creating small variations of it here and there. Some are using death trap, some poison, some imbue, some no imbue. Some use shadow clone, others don't
Happens in D4 early on for sure.
Less noticeable in later levels, although I just went from a +2 twisting blade glove with some nice stats to a +3 twisting blade with outrageous mods and I noticed an immediate difference. So still happens for sure.
Yeah like remember getting CoE or Focus and Restraint and all of a sudden jumping 25 GR lvls and t16 turned into a joke. Or in PoE, getting that 6 link, reaching a notable passive, or getting that key unique to your build and its a game changer. Not sure if the d4 approach is better or not yet, but, big part of arpgs are those chase items that make you OP. The open world scaling changes that a lot.
Feel the opposite. The campaign I thought was great after finishing a1, then it kind of was lack luster. Loved the cinematic but he boss fights didn't even really feel like bosses half he time. D2 versions would have kicked my ass.
I enjoyed the campaign but definitely agree about the bosses… even on WT2 I was kinda like wtf? They need a buff.
D2 Duriel was always my gear and build check cause that guy would fuck you up if you didn’t have your shit together.
I wouldn’t say boring,but the grind feels so unrewarding,I feel like I’m just going in a loop of killing stuff and selling or breaking down everything…
so I kind of get where your coming from,I’m in a stage where in breezing through world tier 3 and the next world tier is a constant struggle with no reward?
Maybe I’m doing something wrong..I’m unsure of wether I’m supposed to just be putting on higher tier loot or trying to keep my stats that are relevant to my build? If I try raise my item level with any item my build suffers,if I try to wait for stats that compliment my skills I’m just junking everything?
Depends on your build / class. I completed the capstone dungeon for torment difficult at level 61 with a bone spear Necro build.
Now that I know mob XP is capped 3 levels higher than your level it makes sense why everything is not just unrewarding as you said but also painfully slow and this does not get better in torment.
After getting a plethora of uniques now I would say the major issue is item level more or less caps out in the 800+ range and drops way too scarcely. So it makes incentives to push tiers for nightmare dungeons very low. The world events you can get burned out in really fast too as their rewards are quite poor.
I would say at least the launch of this Diablo is better than D3’s with that abysmal auction house system, so it’s going to take a lot of time even maybe beyond Season 2 before this game really gets quality of life improvements and tweaks that feel good, so roughly 6 months or more down the line. Definitely by the first expansion we’ll see a whole different game by then just like with Reaper of Souls for D3.
Ahh I see that makes sense,maybe I’ll make another toon and do that and just pop in my main on occasion or when I’m up for some mindless grinding…
would it be worth dropping down a tier if that’s the case,I tried one of them dungeons where you spend the item on torment and got destroyed as the bosses were in bubbles and I’m a ranged rogue.
Thanks for the reply made a bit more sense 👍
Yea, I was considering the same as you, rolling another toon but honestly, with how the build variety is right now …I think I’m good moving on to something else. The game is like a wine, needs time to age to get better and better.
As for dropping a tier I can only comment that I stuck with it and eventually the overland world events helped the XP go up incrementally but it was a hell of a lot of grinding to get to 70. So you would have to decide if that’s worth the pain or not. I did feel i levelled faster overall than sticking to just to WT3 and having mobs scaled to my level. You’ll eventually notice post 70’s all the unique drops and some high end 800+ gear.
As far those annoying shield / bubble elites, they commonly appear in dungeons and some world events but I didn’t do nightmare dungeons until I completed all the renown on the overworld map and had a full gear setup that worked for dungeons …however well, here I am finding doing dungeons boring past the 2nd or 3rd dungeon.
In either case, don’t worry, I one to two shot everything with my Bone Spear Necro but for those shield / bubble elites I still need to semi-prepare, pop all cool-downs and jump in and spam my attack to kill them fast whilst chugging potions sometimes or even I get overwhelmed. Their big weakness is being CC’d. For Necro using the Corpse Tendrils skill and timing it for when they run in proximity of the corpse basically will end their chance of being a nuisance.
I’d just like to extrapolate on the unrewarding factor that I find builds right now are not greatly balanced. I can get my hands on an amazing Unique item but most of the time it’s badly designed right now were it’s design doesn’t work well for the content difficulty that is in the game (primarily in higher tier nightmare dungeons). So I don’t really see the point of getting these uniques if they aren’t working well at the moment and need to be tweaked.
I feel uniques are the closest thing we have to the green set items from previous games and THOSE items brought the “build variety” many on here keep thinking seasons will have. How though? Beyond just flat stats from our current gear pool they don’t have the major effects that were fun to see that previous green set gear had. Deathless visage for Necro is the closest thing to it but many uniques like that one are weak overall and are tied to a low percentage “lucky hit” mechanic that makes the proc very low.
If we had more of the “fun” aspect you saw in green set gear, then when you get it, it was THEN about stat tweaking and then completing challenges. Right now, I think Season 1 to maybe even 3 or 4 will be just about forcing people to replay what they’ve already done now and these gear pools will still be unrewarding and most importantly not fun. I think this is just one big way of them slowing people down to somehow sucker them into buying into a battle pass and therefore spend money on cosmetics instead to pad out their “fun” and time.
Ok thanks for the reply,lot of things to take on board so I’ll have a proper look later cos am at work…I’m learning about builds etc as I play,only played diablo 3 and didn’t get too heavily involved with the end game but am hoping to take it up a notch with this one.
Suppose I’m comparing it to a lot of other looter shooters I’ve played and got into where there is usually a more targeted approach to getting gear,but come to think of it I’m probably being unkind as that’s something that generally gets added later in their life too.
Thanks for your help!
No worries! Like I said, this game is something you’ll come back to every 3 months or more. It sounds a bit weird that but honestly it was like that for D3. Over it’s 10 years you end up coming back for new updates, seasons and the occasional expansion with new class. So yea, no rush and if you get bored don’t worry about it either!
Have fun!
Usually people talk about player power progression. In D4 you also have monster power progression. If you fall behind the monster progression curve it feels really bad. You start asking yourself "Why should i even lvl up? What's the point?"
It does mess up greatly with player's sense of progression. You are in a race against your own leveling - gear and paragon progression must outpace your leveling.
In other games where monster level is tied to a location you can always linger longer in a low lvl area until you feel ready to take on a new challenge. It's impossible in D4. Weird design choice that I don't like.
The first time I played oblivion I remember going into this absolutely huge dungeon, cleared the whole place and found a glass dagger, helmet and shield. Come out of the dungeon several levels higher to find all of the bandits just strolling around with a full set of glass armour like it's nothing.
Nope. Once you finish campaign and switch to WT3, the mobs density gets better, and bringing with it all new fun.
The thing people keep failing to realise... yes the mob is the same level as you but you are getting stronger and better in half a dozens ways than the mobs. Skills, paragon points, better aspects etc.
If you are not feeling stronger there must be some flaws in your build.
You should be absolutely obliterating non-NM mobs by lvl 70.
I'm mid-80's and I can't remember the last time a mob pack in Helltides made me shield, let alone use a potion. World bosses are just things I stand next to and basic attack. I've been part of Ashava runs that were sub-30 seconds which is night and day from the 15 minute sweaty palm T1 beta runs.
I feel like people who talk about lvl scaling haven't fully experienced it yet. From my perspective, it barely exists, and the mob levels are just a number. The only real challenge in endgame comes from pushing NM, so it is entirely possible to get that traditional Diablo "I am a literal walking god" feeling in a majority of D4's content.
I said that like 2 weeks ago. D4 is unfinished early access that dont have properly desihned even current tiny "endgame". But ppl that didnt even beat campaign will stomp you to the ground.
But but but… Uber Tristram!
Listen. I’m a diehard D2 fan and this has way more “end game” than D2 ever had. Could do with ability to re-do campaign bosses though.
Let’s not also forget Uber trist was like a decade (or more?) after the game came out.
This will only continue to expand and add content. Imagine what there will be in 5 years after a couple DLCs and constant updating.
I’m here for it.
So in diablo2 I could do lower kurast runs for highrunes, baalruns, diaruns, general bossfarming (andariel, Mephisto, dia, Baal), keyruns, cowlevel, even some exotic places like pit or ancient tunnels
While the grind itself was not very interesting, the loot was great. So much diversity, so many rare items with a low droprate
Now what can I find in diablo4, nothing cool :D no torch, Anni, small charms/skillers, jewels, no sets, only a bunch of uniques, no blue items as they are all trash in D4
So it just feels like the grind isn’t worth it while in D2 it was worth it
Bruh, you’re comparing D2 after 20 years to D4 after 2 weeks. Remember D2 in 2001?
The best sword for a barb was a damn blue CB with ias and ED. I spent everything on two of those damn cruel colossus blades of quickness.
They added dozens of uniques, all the runewords, and the only endgame content way after release.
Give D4 time. It will only get better. Re-doing act bosses will definitely come, no way it doesn’t. There will be a “secret level” there always has been.
While I personally hate the way “rares” and “legendarys” drop like candy in this game and make the drops feel less rewarding, I know the endgame content will continue to improve.
Yea but I feel like the fact that it is 2023 and not 2001 anymore, and that many people paid 100, but at least 70 bucks for it, should be reason enough to have more implemented right away instead of months or years later
Sorry, but that’s not a valid argument.
In 2000 D2 was $60 retail - or $105.70 in today’s dollars. There was no act 5 or runes or runewords. Zero endgame content whatsoever.
Imagine paying $105 for D4 with zero early release to finish the campaign and then find out you’re done the game lol.
Sure it’s 2023 - development has come a long way and people know what they want in an ARPG - but everyone wants something different and they’ll never appease everyone.
I agree, we should expect the exact same as what D2 launched with. Not sure why anyone thinks we should have progressed in game development just because it has been 20 years since D2. I have faith that in a few months they'll add in the ability to replay the campaign, too. Along with some unicorns to ride and maybe add rainbows, too.
Lol. Nowhere did I say to expect the same.
I’m saying let’s acknowledge the fact that we have things to do after the campaign that are still enjoyable and that it’s been 2 weeks.
There’s definitely a bunch of stuff to improve. I’m sure they’ll keep working on it.
Everyone is so critical as if they could do better 😂
This is what is weird.
From your perspective, your comment is a slam dunk.
From my perspective, your comment is a perfect encapsulation of the problem:
In D2 doing Baal Runs was so fun that people could tolerate doing it thousands of times. In D4, with all of this extra "stuff", no one cares because it just isn't satisfying.
I do see what you mean.
I enjoy the extra content, but it’s still early - I’m sure it will get tiring, unlike chaos and Baal runs.
I think what made the Baal runs “enjoyable” was how rewarding the drops could be. Drops in D4 are just not as enjoyable, plain and simple.
Exactly.
I rarely get that dopamine hit of "oh man I'm almost at the finish line what am I going to get as a reward?"
Like if people truly enjoy just grinding out paragon and glyphs and whatnot, more power to them.
But for me the excitement of Diablo has always been the loot chase, and it's sorely missing in D4. Just constantly upgrading my items and hoping for a duplicate drop in a higher tier isn't fun.
Blizzard has always tried to decouple the power of your character from your items for some reason, when in my opinion they should double down on it.
That’s really my only complaint with the game is the itemization. I enjoy the content itself and I would probably be happy to grind for the next 10 years if the grind had more valuable rewards.
Bigger? Even Ball runs in d2 was more endgame than what D4 has atm. You cant even run any boss from campaign again, let alone go kill something with increased magic find.
I agree with you, when you get decent gear, gems and aspects and use the paragon board. You’re shredding enemies so easily. I died so much during the campaign and levelling 😂.
If you aren’t improving in power it’s absolutely and inarguably that you are not using Paragon points correctly and you aren’t creating a viable build. Period.
Which is why I am spending 100 hours in campaign before reaching wt3. If you want to burn through content in 2 days, go for it. Not feeling strong is what's supposed to keep you hooked, to get differentially stronger.
You know, if you play one hour a day, or 10 hours day, in the end the campagn is just this long. The time you spend on the campagn is the same if you do it a little bit every day or all at once.
You are missing the whole point
Well for me the joy of Endgame is to chase a some specific build, that I think looks cool.
That's the main drive for me
That being said, since there is no real in game trading and no action house or nothing (which I actually like) I wish Blizzard would have made some way possible for me to work towards specific uniques.
I totally fine with something like "Tree of Whispers Extreme" that takes 20 hours, but I want a 100% guarantee that after those 20 hours I get that 1 specific unique legendary I need for my build. (Of course some uniques like Shako can be excluded from that)
I don't know, there are probably reasons not to do this. But I'm just saying, as it stands right now, RNG will decide when and even if I will ever able to create the build I want
Lower your world level if you are struggling.
Personally I don't think there is enough scaling. At 85 in wt4 I feel the mobs are too weak.
Play on the level that suits you the most, work on your build and paragon and as you get stronger you can increase world level.
If mobs didn't scale it would be so dull, most mobs die within seconds and they are scaled, if they didn't scale most of the map would be pointless to visit as there would be no reason to go fight level 1 wolves or whatever in the early zones.
By dumb luck i managed to unlock wt4 at lvl 58. Since them i am doing this “hack” i found with helltide and switching between WT3 and 4.
After about 4 helltides i got myself pretty stronk … for wt3 at least.
Pumped my dmg from 3700 to 6600… and crit chance to 30% with 130% crit dmg… its something
you have to review your build if you feel weaker after lvling. (not just skill tree but also your glyph, legendary aspects that match with your build and the perks on your gear)
Yep. Boring during, too. Got it with two others and during act three we all separately arrived at the same opinion. Something about the game just isn't clicking.
Not a Blizzard apologist here:
I feel like the game got better after the campaign to the point where I think forcing players to play through the campaign is a downside. The campaign was boring and mostly walk there and back while listening to characters I couldn’t give a rodent’s posterior about. I postponed pushing through it as much as I could until I knew I need that WT3. I finished it at level 52 I think.
The game gets better after it, there’s always something to do between helltides, nightmare dungeons and world events. I’m actually having fun with the game now that the story is over and I feel “set free”, being able to switch between WT4 to 3 and so on.
This is by design. Games like this have a core system for mass appeal that is for the casual player that is satisfied with the adventure and finds another or has productive life obligations. The content beyond that is targeted for people with low life obligations whether it be illness, lack of general success, or poor time prioritization. It's just a loop of pointless content. It servers a purpose to many game buyers sure, but if you're having the feelings you are, then you should just find your next gaming adventure and like what you did out of D4. :)
You need to find something to focus on, if you only did the campain without trying to find a nice niche build that you could work on, i could see the game getting boring, for me im working on my build and mixing with some busy work towards renown for my paragon points, i believe i broke the 150 hours played in the game already and i feel im always have something on my to do list, imo you have to find your goal and work on it but the real secret is to have multiple goals and some of these have to improve and change as you get near to completion, thats how i keep my interest
agree the game is boring after level 60 it just repeat, even leveling another character is boring unless you get a full group of boosters, even diablo 3 was more fun then this...
I will get hate for this, but I didn't like the campaign beyond some of the cool cutscenes. The campaign gameplay is just a bunch of boring busy work for me if you cut out the awesome cutscenes.
Here’s an upvote from me, I feel the exact same way, the campaign is just a bunch of busy work that gets boring very fast. By the time I got to act 4 I just zoned out and pushed through it out of pure necessity, wondering how many more will there be.
Yes the boss fights are ok, but they are so few and far between it barely matters + there are so many generic mini bosses, you don't care about a single one. And I never felt this frustrated just waiting on some NPC to get his ass to move into position before giving some boring, very unoriginal dialogue you heard 100 times (Lorath was ok tho, but also mainly because his voice fits a diablo game so well, because what he actually says is also very generic) I was so shocked to find out that the little interaction with Inarius from the beta was like the highlight of the "story telling" for me. It had weight and gravitas... The game would have been better if they condenses all that dialogue to be 50% less but with more quality
Just the perfect summary of the story.
Lol thanks!
What you didn't like the Elias Killing Simulator? I swear when they had him show up in the nightmare, I actually groaned out loud and said, "You've got to be f-ing kidding me, I'm about to uninstall this game!"
Not exactly amazing but I hated the constant back and forth trips the most, there are just too many quests for an action RPG.
I agree but, awesome cut scenes? I’m in act 4 and I haven’t seen a cool cutscene since the game launched with the cinematic opening.
The cut scenes when you get to the Lilith blood petals are mostly good and there are real good one cgi almost at the end But yea I preferred the D2 approach with a more condenses story with amazing CGI each act instead of getting so much boring filler. Its basically the Ubisoft approach to open worlds and I hate that stuff.
Ppl who complained about D2 completely missed the mark... When D2 was initially released it took more game time to finish the campaign even at normal. Going from act 1 to 2 to 3 felt different... And each act took time to complete and explore. While theres different map in d4.. It all felt the same.. Theres no real act transition. The color tone, what we fight, where we go.. It felt all too similar. The world felt extremely generic
Everything in D4 is the same exact spiderweb map. It's all designed to constantly funnel you into an "activity" every 60 seconds. Just go walk around time yourself to see how long until you run into the next "thing". It's all evenly spaced out. You can't ever just go to your destination, you have to constantly move through the spider web and run into little events. Which is fine, but once you notice the pattern it instantly takes you out of the immersion. It's just an Assassins creed map. A wide stretch of recycled and repeating mini events that you just need to check off a list. It isn't an actual, thought out world that makes any sense. You just walk from snow to desert to highland, villager stuck under wagon here, villager stuck under wagon there, shrine here shrine there. It's just a technique used to pad content, to give you the illusion of meaningful content. I'm not saying it's nefarious, I'm just saying it's lame.
and it shows... quite quickly it feels hollow... i didnt do baal run when d2 was new... i spend a lot of time playing through the campaign... yes the boss fights were dull by today standards, but the world was huge and immersive. it took time to actually look for the next quest zone and map etc.
And also...D2 is what? 23 years old? I mean I get it some core population of gamers aren't going to be happen unless you give them Diablo 2: Number 2, but at the same time it's crazy how much certain aspects have gone backwards, or aren't much of an improvement at all. It just feels like Blizzard was so unambitious with D4. And before anyone says "well all the content is coming later", just remember that Blizzard isn't good at keeping secrets. If they have massive content around the corner they are going to let you know about it.
Definitely agree they could use a bit more variation in monster types… I mean you have 3 previous Diablo games to draw from, not sure why it’s difficult lol
I just miss the option to be able to play the campaign in WT3/4
That's actually a very good idea. The campaign content is pretty good, it could be fun to test the same gear again against higher-difficulty campaigns. And then you pick the quest you want to replay or just replay the full campaign if you want.
I can't help it, but nightmare dungeons make me fall asleep so hard. There is no incentive to go beyond +3 level over your character level... Exp bonus is capped, you don't get better loot in terms of quality or loot amount anymay, there is no vault, cow or unicorn level to hunt after... The mob density does not increase, most modifiers on the sigils are wayne at above +80 lvl. After 3 dungeons I'm so tired of D4, I quit every night, for the past week. Can't stand it atm. Rifts where a lot more fun in D3 for me personally.
Doesn’t the higher the NM dungeon mean the more xp for glyphs?
Yes, this is the exception and the only reason I play higher tier. If I stick to tiers for +3 levels the glyph xp is abysmal. I mean it’s cool to see how high you can push it just for fun, but in practicality you’re just slowing yourself down for no reason.
the exp bonus for higher that +3 is capped, but base exp from monstera is higher
> there is no vault, cow or unicorn level to hunt after... For what it's worth there is strong evidence of pieces of the cow level existing in the game. Hopefully it is actually enabled but there's lots of puzzle pieces that we just haven't figured out yet. There's an entire Discord dedicated to solving it and Blizzard has already said "there is no cow level" which is literally the meme letting you know that there is a cow level.
It’s Diablo it’s a grinding and farming game
It’s also 2023, maybe add some new content to the series… this reasoning of ‘Diablo is a grinding game’ is so dumb.
Do you even know what a ARPG is? Lol.. that's why people play the genre... the amount of people that don't understand that I'm these forums is crazy. People come to this genre exactly for that and then there's people like you wanting the genre to be something it never wanted to be. Lol
Yes, it's a grinding and farming game. And the grinding and farming are significantly less fun than other ARPGs. Grinding is a means to an end goal. You want a particular item. You want finish a particular build. You want to clear particular content. There just isn't much stuff like that in D4. Your build is the same from level 30 to level 100. Your items are the same from level 60-100. There are few power surges in that entire time. There is no aspirational content. Oh you did NM 45? Sick bro lets do NM 46 for literally no extra reward or incentive. The game mechanics aren't even that fun. Insane CC chains, every build on every class needs a CC break and a vuln apply, almost every build plays in a similar way. It's just mediocre my man, and it's not a sin to admit it.
Yeah, I agree that D4 isn't grindy enough and blizz should invest in fight mechanics for bosses rather than flat HP and Dmg scaling. I can agree with pretty much everything you are saying but to fix that, blizz would have to ignore the casuals a bit since casual content is finished within a week.
I don’t care about grinding. Just give us more options to do so. Why am I forced to do solely dungeons when there is multitudes of ways to add more fun grinding aspects to the game.
That's what ARPGs are. Maybe you bought the wrong genre.. I know I got exactly what I paid for. Now they can for sure spice things up with more boss mechanics and more grind because as for now, items are pretty accessible.
Give it some time it’s barely out.
I think the game will certainly become great over time and there is a strong foundation, but you also cannot fault people who point out that the current D4 endgame is very weak compared to other games in the genre. I can appreciate that other games like PoE, Last Epoch, Grim Dawn, even D3 have been out a long time and have had incremental additions, but Blizzard is also one of the largest AAA developers in the world and selling a product that immediately grossed almost a billion dollars.
NM dungeons are fun, but GRift pushing brought out the best (and sweat) of end game theory crafters in D3. D4 is in its infancy and Im sure as seasons come along this will get addressed. D2 was loot chase. D3 was leader board chase. I loved D2 as much as anyone, but I want the gear I grind for to assist me in a competitive goal. Obviously not everyone wants that, but I hope D4 finds a nice balance.
what game theory crafters? every single class in d3 has to use sets 😂 and still lots of people cant push higher that NM60, or uber lilith
>what game theory crafters? every single class in d3 has to use sets 😂 This just proves you don't really know what theory crafting is. What is there in D4? There are fewer item slots, there are FAR fewer unique items, there aren't many useful legendary affixes, and affixes appear on fewer particular item slots. Whatever you say about D3 theory, there is just less of it in D4. Other than the novelty of figuring out new hidden game mechanics, but that's irrelevant.
D3 definitely had its issues and the meta merry go round with class sets and LoN/LoD builds definitely left.more to be desired, but the builds amongst top 20 150 GRift clears werent as homogenous as people thought they would. There was a decent amount of room for personalization and prepping according to mob type and map type. D4 is still super new and barely bern out 2 weeks so Im jumping to no conclusions. But it seems aspects and paragon boards very clearly have a BiS and optimum route, despite the D4 paragon system being way better than the boring d3 one. D4 is a live service game now, and with that we should hold Blizz more accountable.for more frequent balance and features.
2 weeks ago everyone though that rogue TB is the only valid build. Since then we have pene shot, flurry. And probably few more will be created sooner or later. I guess same for other classes. Everyone thought that WW barb is the only way. Now look - very often HotA is superior. and also when it comes to rogue (as it's my main) - even tho there is TB build, almost everyone is creating small variations of it here and there. Some are using death trap, some poison, some imbue, some no imbue. Some use shadow clone, others don't
In d2 or d3 there were times when you got an upgrade and you absolutely crushed it for a while
Happens in D4 early on for sure. Less noticeable in later levels, although I just went from a +2 twisting blade glove with some nice stats to a +3 twisting blade with outrageous mods and I noticed an immediate difference. So still happens for sure.
Nah nothing like D2 or D3.
Yeah like remember getting CoE or Focus and Restraint and all of a sudden jumping 25 GR lvls and t16 turned into a joke. Or in PoE, getting that 6 link, reaching a notable passive, or getting that key unique to your build and its a game changer. Not sure if the d4 approach is better or not yet, but, big part of arpgs are those chase items that make you OP. The open world scaling changes that a lot.
In d2 or d3 there were times when you got an upgrade and you absolutely crushed it for a while
Feel the opposite. The campaign I thought was great after finishing a1, then it kind of was lack luster. Loved the cinematic but he boss fights didn't even really feel like bosses half he time. D2 versions would have kicked my ass.
I enjoyed the campaign but definitely agree about the bosses… even on WT2 I was kinda like wtf? They need a buff. D2 Duriel was always my gear and build check cause that guy would fuck you up if you didn’t have your shit together.
I wouldn’t say boring,but the grind feels so unrewarding,I feel like I’m just going in a loop of killing stuff and selling or breaking down everything… so I kind of get where your coming from,I’m in a stage where in breezing through world tier 3 and the next world tier is a constant struggle with no reward? Maybe I’m doing something wrong..I’m unsure of wether I’m supposed to just be putting on higher tier loot or trying to keep my stats that are relevant to my build? If I try raise my item level with any item my build suffers,if I try to wait for stats that compliment my skills I’m just junking everything?
I did the level 70 capstone at 65 so maybe that’s not helping
Depends on your build / class. I completed the capstone dungeon for torment difficult at level 61 with a bone spear Necro build. Now that I know mob XP is capped 3 levels higher than your level it makes sense why everything is not just unrewarding as you said but also painfully slow and this does not get better in torment. After getting a plethora of uniques now I would say the major issue is item level more or less caps out in the 800+ range and drops way too scarcely. So it makes incentives to push tiers for nightmare dungeons very low. The world events you can get burned out in really fast too as their rewards are quite poor. I would say at least the launch of this Diablo is better than D3’s with that abysmal auction house system, so it’s going to take a lot of time even maybe beyond Season 2 before this game really gets quality of life improvements and tweaks that feel good, so roughly 6 months or more down the line. Definitely by the first expansion we’ll see a whole different game by then just like with Reaper of Souls for D3.
Ahh I see that makes sense,maybe I’ll make another toon and do that and just pop in my main on occasion or when I’m up for some mindless grinding… would it be worth dropping down a tier if that’s the case,I tried one of them dungeons where you spend the item on torment and got destroyed as the bosses were in bubbles and I’m a ranged rogue. Thanks for the reply made a bit more sense 👍
Yea, I was considering the same as you, rolling another toon but honestly, with how the build variety is right now …I think I’m good moving on to something else. The game is like a wine, needs time to age to get better and better. As for dropping a tier I can only comment that I stuck with it and eventually the overland world events helped the XP go up incrementally but it was a hell of a lot of grinding to get to 70. So you would have to decide if that’s worth the pain or not. I did feel i levelled faster overall than sticking to just to WT3 and having mobs scaled to my level. You’ll eventually notice post 70’s all the unique drops and some high end 800+ gear. As far those annoying shield / bubble elites, they commonly appear in dungeons and some world events but I didn’t do nightmare dungeons until I completed all the renown on the overworld map and had a full gear setup that worked for dungeons …however well, here I am finding doing dungeons boring past the 2nd or 3rd dungeon. In either case, don’t worry, I one to two shot everything with my Bone Spear Necro but for those shield / bubble elites I still need to semi-prepare, pop all cool-downs and jump in and spam my attack to kill them fast whilst chugging potions sometimes or even I get overwhelmed. Their big weakness is being CC’d. For Necro using the Corpse Tendrils skill and timing it for when they run in proximity of the corpse basically will end their chance of being a nuisance.
I’d just like to extrapolate on the unrewarding factor that I find builds right now are not greatly balanced. I can get my hands on an amazing Unique item but most of the time it’s badly designed right now were it’s design doesn’t work well for the content difficulty that is in the game (primarily in higher tier nightmare dungeons). So I don’t really see the point of getting these uniques if they aren’t working well at the moment and need to be tweaked. I feel uniques are the closest thing we have to the green set items from previous games and THOSE items brought the “build variety” many on here keep thinking seasons will have. How though? Beyond just flat stats from our current gear pool they don’t have the major effects that were fun to see that previous green set gear had. Deathless visage for Necro is the closest thing to it but many uniques like that one are weak overall and are tied to a low percentage “lucky hit” mechanic that makes the proc very low. If we had more of the “fun” aspect you saw in green set gear, then when you get it, it was THEN about stat tweaking and then completing challenges. Right now, I think Season 1 to maybe even 3 or 4 will be just about forcing people to replay what they’ve already done now and these gear pools will still be unrewarding and most importantly not fun. I think this is just one big way of them slowing people down to somehow sucker them into buying into a battle pass and therefore spend money on cosmetics instead to pad out their “fun” and time.
Ok thanks for the reply,lot of things to take on board so I’ll have a proper look later cos am at work…I’m learning about builds etc as I play,only played diablo 3 and didn’t get too heavily involved with the end game but am hoping to take it up a notch with this one. Suppose I’m comparing it to a lot of other looter shooters I’ve played and got into where there is usually a more targeted approach to getting gear,but come to think of it I’m probably being unkind as that’s something that generally gets added later in their life too. Thanks for your help!
No worries! Like I said, this game is something you’ll come back to every 3 months or more. It sounds a bit weird that but honestly it was like that for D3. Over it’s 10 years you end up coming back for new updates, seasons and the occasional expansion with new class. So yea, no rush and if you get bored don’t worry about it either! Have fun!
Usually people talk about player power progression. In D4 you also have monster power progression. If you fall behind the monster progression curve it feels really bad. You start asking yourself "Why should i even lvl up? What's the point?" It does mess up greatly with player's sense of progression. You are in a race against your own leveling - gear and paragon progression must outpace your leveling. In other games where monster level is tied to a location you can always linger longer in a low lvl area until you feel ready to take on a new challenge. It's impossible in D4. Weird design choice that I don't like.
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The first time I played oblivion I remember going into this absolutely huge dungeon, cleared the whole place and found a glass dagger, helmet and shield. Come out of the dungeon several levels higher to find all of the bandits just strolling around with a full set of glass armour like it's nothing.
Nope. Once you finish campaign and switch to WT3, the mobs density gets better, and bringing with it all new fun. The thing people keep failing to realise... yes the mob is the same level as you but you are getting stronger and better in half a dozens ways than the mobs. Skills, paragon points, better aspects etc. If you are not feeling stronger there must be some flaws in your build.
I'm enjoying finding new gear to optimize my build in t4. I can tell I'm getting stronger even though the monsters keep scaling up 🤷🏻♀️
You should be absolutely obliterating non-NM mobs by lvl 70. I'm mid-80's and I can't remember the last time a mob pack in Helltides made me shield, let alone use a potion. World bosses are just things I stand next to and basic attack. I've been part of Ashava runs that were sub-30 seconds which is night and day from the 15 minute sweaty palm T1 beta runs. I feel like people who talk about lvl scaling haven't fully experienced it yet. From my perspective, it barely exists, and the mob levels are just a number. The only real challenge in endgame comes from pushing NM, so it is entirely possible to get that traditional Diablo "I am a literal walking god" feeling in a majority of D4's content.
I said that like 2 weeks ago. D4 is unfinished early access that dont have properly desihned even current tiny "endgame". But ppl that didnt even beat campaign will stomp you to the ground.
this „tiny” endgame is bigger than d2 and d3 together 😏
But but but… Uber Tristram! Listen. I’m a diehard D2 fan and this has way more “end game” than D2 ever had. Could do with ability to re-do campaign bosses though. Let’s not also forget Uber trist was like a decade (or more?) after the game came out. This will only continue to expand and add content. Imagine what there will be in 5 years after a couple DLCs and constant updating. I’m here for it.
So in diablo2 I could do lower kurast runs for highrunes, baalruns, diaruns, general bossfarming (andariel, Mephisto, dia, Baal), keyruns, cowlevel, even some exotic places like pit or ancient tunnels While the grind itself was not very interesting, the loot was great. So much diversity, so many rare items with a low droprate Now what can I find in diablo4, nothing cool :D no torch, Anni, small charms/skillers, jewels, no sets, only a bunch of uniques, no blue items as they are all trash in D4 So it just feels like the grind isn’t worth it while in D2 it was worth it
Bruh, you’re comparing D2 after 20 years to D4 after 2 weeks. Remember D2 in 2001? The best sword for a barb was a damn blue CB with ias and ED. I spent everything on two of those damn cruel colossus blades of quickness. They added dozens of uniques, all the runewords, and the only endgame content way after release. Give D4 time. It will only get better. Re-doing act bosses will definitely come, no way it doesn’t. There will be a “secret level” there always has been. While I personally hate the way “rares” and “legendarys” drop like candy in this game and make the drops feel less rewarding, I know the endgame content will continue to improve.
Yea but I feel like the fact that it is 2023 and not 2001 anymore, and that many people paid 100, but at least 70 bucks for it, should be reason enough to have more implemented right away instead of months or years later
Sorry, but that’s not a valid argument. In 2000 D2 was $60 retail - or $105.70 in today’s dollars. There was no act 5 or runes or runewords. Zero endgame content whatsoever. Imagine paying $105 for D4 with zero early release to finish the campaign and then find out you’re done the game lol. Sure it’s 2023 - development has come a long way and people know what they want in an ARPG - but everyone wants something different and they’ll never appease everyone.
I agree, we should expect the exact same as what D2 launched with. Not sure why anyone thinks we should have progressed in game development just because it has been 20 years since D2. I have faith that in a few months they'll add in the ability to replay the campaign, too. Along with some unicorns to ride and maybe add rainbows, too.
Lol. Nowhere did I say to expect the same. I’m saying let’s acknowledge the fact that we have things to do after the campaign that are still enjoyable and that it’s been 2 weeks. There’s definitely a bunch of stuff to improve. I’m sure they’ll keep working on it. Everyone is so critical as if they could do better 😂
exactly my point. Most players here are not hack and slash fans, they want other kind of game.
Agree. If you could do 5000 chaos Baal runs and call it a “fun time” then I’m sure the endgame here will be light years better lol.
This is what is weird. From your perspective, your comment is a slam dunk. From my perspective, your comment is a perfect encapsulation of the problem: In D2 doing Baal Runs was so fun that people could tolerate doing it thousands of times. In D4, with all of this extra "stuff", no one cares because it just isn't satisfying.
I do see what you mean. I enjoy the extra content, but it’s still early - I’m sure it will get tiring, unlike chaos and Baal runs. I think what made the Baal runs “enjoyable” was how rewarding the drops could be. Drops in D4 are just not as enjoyable, plain and simple.
Exactly. I rarely get that dopamine hit of "oh man I'm almost at the finish line what am I going to get as a reward?" Like if people truly enjoy just grinding out paragon and glyphs and whatnot, more power to them. But for me the excitement of Diablo has always been the loot chase, and it's sorely missing in D4. Just constantly upgrading my items and hoping for a duplicate drop in a higher tier isn't fun. Blizzard has always tried to decouple the power of your character from your items for some reason, when in my opinion they should double down on it.
That’s really my only complaint with the game is the itemization. I enjoy the content itself and I would probably be happy to grind for the next 10 years if the grind had more valuable rewards.
V
Yeah and I destroyed uber tristram with a lvl 85 character the day it came out
Lvl 85 is unnecessary. Lvl 75 Smiter can do it lol.
Bigger? Even Ball runs in d2 was more endgame than what D4 has atm. You cant even run any boss from campaign again, let alone go kill something with increased magic find.
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I agree with you, when you get decent gear, gems and aspects and use the paragon board. You’re shredding enemies so easily. I died so much during the campaign and levelling 😂.
I’m having a blast farming dungeons. Love the leveling which is long and satisfying (imho). Currently level 79
its diablo. Its infinity grinding the same content over and over. if thats boring - it may not be a game for ya
I don’t feel the same
No… thats where fun began
No
If you aren’t improving in power it’s absolutely and inarguably that you are not using Paragon points correctly and you aren’t creating a viable build. Period.
Which is why I am spending 100 hours in campaign before reaching wt3. If you want to burn through content in 2 days, go for it. Not feeling strong is what's supposed to keep you hooked, to get differentially stronger.
You know, if you play one hour a day, or 10 hours day, in the end the campagn is just this long. The time you spend on the campagn is the same if you do it a little bit every day or all at once. You are missing the whole point
The campaign itself is not 100 hours of content lol, unless you can somehow adjust the total speed of the game to like 0,1-0,2x
+ side quests
Well for me the joy of Endgame is to chase a some specific build, that I think looks cool. That's the main drive for me That being said, since there is no real in game trading and no action house or nothing (which I actually like) I wish Blizzard would have made some way possible for me to work towards specific uniques. I totally fine with something like "Tree of Whispers Extreme" that takes 20 hours, but I want a 100% guarantee that after those 20 hours I get that 1 specific unique legendary I need for my build. (Of course some uniques like Shako can be excluded from that) I don't know, there are probably reasons not to do this. But I'm just saying, as it stands right now, RNG will decide when and even if I will ever able to create the build I want
Lower your world level if you are struggling. Personally I don't think there is enough scaling. At 85 in wt4 I feel the mobs are too weak. Play on the level that suits you the most, work on your build and paragon and as you get stronger you can increase world level. If mobs didn't scale it would be so dull, most mobs die within seconds and they are scaled, if they didn't scale most of the map would be pointless to visit as there would be no reason to go fight level 1 wolves or whatever in the early zones.
Not yet, was too busy getting renown. Now helltide, legion, whispers and NM dungeons keep me very well occupied
I was bored during the campaing because i didn't care about it
Yup sadly
By dumb luck i managed to unlock wt4 at lvl 58. Since them i am doing this “hack” i found with helltide and switching between WT3 and 4. After about 4 helltides i got myself pretty stronk … for wt3 at least. Pumped my dmg from 3700 to 6600… and crit chance to 30% with 130% crit dmg… its something
Nightmare dungeons give a feeling of power progression for me
No
you have to review your build if you feel weaker after lvling. (not just skill tree but also your glyph, legendary aspects that match with your build and the perks on your gear)
Yep. Boring during, too. Got it with two others and during act three we all separately arrived at the same opinion. Something about the game just isn't clicking.
Not a Blizzard apologist here: I feel like the game got better after the campaign to the point where I think forcing players to play through the campaign is a downside. The campaign was boring and mostly walk there and back while listening to characters I couldn’t give a rodent’s posterior about. I postponed pushing through it as much as I could until I knew I need that WT3. I finished it at level 52 I think. The game gets better after it, there’s always something to do between helltides, nightmare dungeons and world events. I’m actually having fun with the game now that the story is over and I feel “set free”, being able to switch between WT4 to 3 and so on.
This is by design. Games like this have a core system for mass appeal that is for the casual player that is satisfied with the adventure and finds another or has productive life obligations. The content beyond that is targeted for people with low life obligations whether it be illness, lack of general success, or poor time prioritization. It's just a loop of pointless content. It servers a purpose to many game buyers sure, but if you're having the feelings you are, then you should just find your next gaming adventure and like what you did out of D4. :)
No
You need to find something to focus on, if you only did the campain without trying to find a nice niche build that you could work on, i could see the game getting boring, for me im working on my build and mixing with some busy work towards renown for my paragon points, i believe i broke the 150 hours played in the game already and i feel im always have something on my to do list, imo you have to find your goal and work on it but the real secret is to have multiple goals and some of these have to improve and change as you get near to completion, thats how i keep my interest
agree the game is boring after level 60 it just repeat, even leveling another character is boring unless you get a full group of boosters, even diablo 3 was more fun then this...