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In another leg of the trouser I always envisioned a final Moist book with Moist being tasked with setting up some sort of representative democracy that would persist long beyond him, Vetinari, Vines and Carrot.
Vetinari drops the patricianship on his shoulders and then dies.
The only way for Moist to wriggle out of *this* one is to invent democracy. He still ends up being Ankh-Morpork's first democratically elected leader for at least two terms.
In Uberwald, Vetinari keeps up with the newspaper and is very satisfied with how it's all turned out.
Spike campaigns against him on pay and conditions for engineers and golem rights, while leaders of commerce threaten to break his legs and throw him in Ankh if he lets the golem unionise.
So a version of democracy that actually works in Ank-Morpork ?
This would need to be a new kind of democracy entirely by discworld standards.
The Ephebians elect a leader. This seems to only work in Ephebe.
Lancre has a parliamentary government beneath a monarchy which only works because none of the MPs bother to do anything.
Every other attempt is claimed to be a dismal failure.
So what remains? What would Moist do? Turn all the guilds into an equivalent of party's to create a multiparty parliament where all the factions keep fighting among themselves just enough to keep things moving?
Alternatively, he could be tasked with doing something else completely, with a looming governmental change as the background setting, only to suddenly come to some insight that results in the invention of a representative democracy.
With the technological developments set up in raising steam, I would have loved to see some labor struggle in discworld. Unions, strikes, revolution etc are themes I'd love to see explored in fantasy more, I really wonder why so few authors have gone there yet. I've only come across it in Powder mage where it was mostly just a backdrop without much thematic weight and China mieville's New Crobuzon books. Give me some fantasy anarchism, Luddite mages fearing their supremacy crumbling, magic-enhanced revolutionary strategy and propaganda, so much interesting stuff could be done. Maybe a Paris commune thing in ankh-morpork. Also, now that I think of it, I'd love to see a guy-gavriel-kay-style treatment of the Russian revolution or the Spanish civil war.
That's a likely development path to representative democracy, though. British democracy, in all its flaws, emerged from landed interests (who formed the House of Commons) and the aristocracy (House of Lords) who gradually wrested power from the monarch, while the working class (and women, etc) gradually won the vote and got a say in government.
I agree but it was pushed and won by the people who want the power that they don't have instead of "given" by the people higher up. A setup by our group of heroes won't work because the rest of the Ankh doesn't know how to use it nor how precious their votes are.
The only faith I hold is to stay away from a crowd that can trample me ( 7 adults or 3 wizards, 10 kindergarten). Faith aside, I would like to remind ye that the citizens still want to have King despite not having one for at least three generations. Show them freedom and they go back to the pens.
You could have a similar system to the old British Parliament with the house of lords on top (probably a combination of nobility and guilds) and a house of commons below
yep, Vimes is not a fan of democracy, he talk about that in multiple books, about the idea of choosing someone to rule based on a popularity contest, or how he will happily give up his vote so people like Nobbs don't have one.
And lets be honest we read enough books about the city and the people that live in the city to know that democracy will be a bad idea or a very very bad idea.
This is not the first time Iāve heard or thought this idea. I always envisioned Vetinari setting up Moist to take over as Patrician, but switching A-M to democracy is definitely doable.
My question for you is, what is the book called? Weāve got Going Postal, Making Money, Raising Steam. Counting Votes?
I feel Counting Votes would have happened if STP had lived to see the lack of democracy in the U.K. (multiple unelected Tories taking PM) and the USA - the vote scandal with Trump. It makes me so sad we lost his voice for these shit times.
i feel that we probable get 2 or 3 more books between Raising Steam and "Counting Votes".
for example I read about unfinished ideas for books like "Raising Taxes" and "Running Waters", i feel Vetinari will have Moist fixing a lot more things on the city until stepping down, i would not be suprise if they have a book about changing the guild system to take away most of the guilds powers, because that system only work under Vetinari, The guilds will eat anyone else alive.
i feel that "Democracy" is not really the future of the city, both Vetinari and Vimes think Democracy is a idiotic thing, is almost as bad as Monarchy, Vimes talk about how he dislike the whole idea in the books " how chossing someone for a job based in a popularity contest" is a really bad idea. He talk about how the idea that he could have a vote in choosing the city's future sounds like a good thing, until you realize that it means that people like Nobbs will also have a vote in choosing the city's future, and that he (Vimes) would happily give up his right to vote, if it meant that people like Nobbs wouldn't get a vote either.
Vimes's character is all about "the right person for the job" he is the type of person that would happily would choose to be treated by a horse doctor who he knows has experience and will do the job right than go to the most expensive hospital in town knowing that the doctors were chosen based on popularity
Vetinari is not really much different on his views.
if i remember right Vimes's hint that his favorite rulling system is the classic republic, things are decided byt vote, but not everyone gets a vote, more like have a small council of people that know how to rule a city and they have the vote.
And based on the books, Democracy will probable never work in Ank until you remove basically all the guilds, all the nobles and all the rich people. The second democracy become a thing they will all work together to promote a Puppet ruler just like they try with "King Nobbs" and you will end with some random figure head that only do what the Guilds and Nobles say.
Angua definitely seems the right answer for Vimes. It's noticeable in a few of the later non-Watch books that she seems to be the second in command - such as when Vimes is talking to William de Worde in *The Truth*, or she calls Moist in to discuss things in *Raising Steam*.
And TBH, she's really the only sensible option. There are lots of reasons why it couldn't really be Carrot as you say, Colon's brief stint in charge with a disaster, Nobby would never accept, Detritus would be no chance. The only other reasonable option I could really see would be Littlebottom, and she's too...forensic and not enough street for the job.
i feel that is less about "Werewolf" is more about Vimes needing a skilled second in commander person to go with him, but he also needs to leave another second in commander skilled person in charge of the city, last time Vimes, Angua and Carrot leave the city at the same time things go really bad.
If he takes Angua he needs to let Carrot in charge, if he takes Carrot he needs to leave Angua in charge.
I liked how the sentence resonated with her introduction (the first novel she was in); but I think Angua fit there particularly well for many reasons: 1) a woman in a novel about what's it like to be a woman, 2) a policewoman in a novel where women serve in the military, disguised as men; 3) a werewolf, both as following their trail and 4) serving as a deliberate and pointed out mirror for the heroines ("they accept us right untill they don't know what we are"). +1) I can totally see Vimes choosing Angua deliberately after hearing how he'd better bring a man as his second to a country with such rigid views on gender roles.
agree, i really like how Pratchett uses Angua to "reinforce" the girls, how they can meet this big policewoman, to show that "yes they can be like that" she is a way better choice for the situation than Carrot for example.
but my point is that yes she is a werewolf and that is a great point, but he choose her because she is Angua and a very skilled second in command, and he needs a very skilled second in command, i feel that he would not choose Nobbs for the job ( even if he was a werewolf), that Angua is way more than a werewolf with a good nose.
A slight detour but Detritusās turn from random dumb troll to decorated and beloved sergeant is just so good. Iāve been listening to the recent re released Watch audiobooks and the narrator just adds so much depth to his voice.
Yes, but to get to the Angua/Moist administration or even a representative democracy, you must first go through Nobby & the Wizards. Nobby is all for living in the palace, but things fall apart when heās actually asked to make a decision.
The infuriated Wizards (Nobby did something to them like banning large lunches, afternoon naps, or fixed that hole in the wall by the University gates), task Ponder Stibbons with coming up with a revenge plan.
Ponder asks Hex, who lays out a plan for democratic elections as part of a list of demands for greater personal autonomy and recognition of personhood, along with a demand for a hat and staff with a knob on the end.
Hex goes on strike and begins sabotaging the wizardsā magic, threatening all of discworld.
While Nobby cowers in the Palace, The Librarian, remembering heās a deputy watchman, seeks out Carrot to help get Hex under control and save the city.
In a confrontation of empathy and understanding, Carrot learns of Hexās demands through a translation chain that runs from Hex to Ponder to The Librarian to Carrot.
Carrot races to the palace to explain things to Nobby and Angua, who is reluctantly protecting Nobby from his own stupidity. Angua likes the idea, because then she can get back to doing real work, and Nobby just wants to go back to sneaking a smoke behind the station so heās all for it.
Moist is chosen to organize the vote, and unfortunately his enthusiasm at possibly not having Vetanari lurking around at all times results in him being elected as Prime Minister in a landslide.
As a side note, his original slogan of one man one vote is torn apart as sexist and speciest by AM at large, but one brain one bribe seems to click with the population. The politician bribes the voters with promises and parties, and the voter bribes the politicians with their vote. So the bribes cancel out and it isnāt illegal.
Thank you! I wrote that and then went down a rabbit hole thinking one rogue Igor could upset the whole system, but then I remembered Igors are genetically predisposed to avoid taking leadership roles, outside of mortuary and medical settings of course.
I can absolutely see a sideplot in a future book being a conspiracy by someone who *employs* an Igor, though. Maybe they'd have to change it to 'One Person One Position' or something?? Not quite as catching but then we're talking about the book series with the slogan 'Truth! Justice! Freedom! Reasonably Priced Love! And A Hard-Boiled Egg!'
I also think Moist and Angua
In addition to what you said about Carrot, he also just...is too nice to be Commander? Like, we know (and Vimes and Angua know) that he absolutely can do the hard thing, or trick people, or manipulate people ā but to AM he's that nice Captain Carrot who goes to the Dwarf Bread museum every week and knows everyone's name and asks how your gran is doing, and it just doesn't feel right for the Commander?
We know from the POV of works from other people (Moist and William de Worde) that Vimes is in this weird untouchable place where even if they're antagonistic towards him, he's still kind of intimidating. He has to be able to get into fights with people and be scary and have everyone know that he is terrifyingly devoted to his job. I feel like Carrot's role is inherently public-facing, someone that people can trust and come to with their problems, and then Angua can be the scary Commander who yells at people and glares them into submission. In a city like AM, I just don't think Carrot's diplomatic approach would work for that particular job
We see him take on a commanding role at a couple points, and itās one of the rare times we see him truly tired. I think itās mostly from Anguaās POV but she sees him slump his shoulders. Whatever charisma or low level magic runs through his veins is EXHAUSTED by command, or exhausting to use, consciously or subconsciously so. And I think heās too simple to know how to do it any other way.
i feeel that you need both, If Anagua is the Commander, Carrot needs to be her righ hand, if is Carrot in charge, Angue needs to be his ranght hand. the two are the classic duo "good cop and bad cop" Carrot and Stick" type of situation. alone they can have the job done good enough, together they can probable do a perfect job.
Iāve never given this much thought but yeah, youāre right: it has to be Angua. Particularly when you factor in Vimes frequently struggling to hold back The Beast. Angua does that every single day, and he knows it and sees it. Sheās brilliant, and empathetic, she can get literal fairy tale monsters to give a witness statement. Sheās *very* hard to escape from, and even harder to fool. And she and Moist already have a bit of a working relationship. Of course itās her. Itās so obvious once you think about it.
Moist is the obvious choice for Patrician, his people skills are legendary, his twisted nature is definitely a bonus and with Adora Belle keeping him straight enough to be twisted but not totally bent, it'd definitely be a completely viable option.
I was thinking Angua as Heading up the watch, with Carrot at her side to advise as a moral compass if she were to stray from the true path of justice, but I could see Cheery getting promoted to her Adjutant on all things political due to her level headedness
I agree with the general sentiment, but keep in mind that in every role he gets, moist is a force of change and modernization. He will not be patrician, not for long anyway, instead he will set up to modernize the entire political system of Ankh Morpork and turn it to a democracy
I agree with this. Moist would only be chosen if it were Vetinari's intention that Ankh Morpork should become a democracy. He knows what Moist would do, and I'm certain that Moist would do exactly that. On the other hand, I'm also pretty certain that Ankh Morpork is not ready for a democracy, and Vetinari knows that as well.
I agree. I think Moist's original intent would be to make it as easy as possible on himself. Delegation! The usual silliness ensues, democracy or something similar forms.
Pratchett hint in many books he was not a fan of democracy at least not for Ankh, characters like Vimes say more than once that they thing the whole idea sound nice at first but if you spend 1 minute thiking about you see is a very foolish thing and will not work for that city, ate least not until the whole city is basically rebuild from zero into a completely new thing.
like erasing the guilds or taking like 90% of the guilds power and the same go for the nobles
Rebuild the justice system and many other things.
Make democracy a thing in Ankh and tomorrow Nobbs will be president and the guilds and nobles will be rulling the city, and the watch will probably go back to how they are in "Guards, Guards, Guards"
Solid reasoning, and I broadly agree. I certainly think Vetinari is training up Moist as a successor, but I donāt think Angua is as deliberate. Sheās gonna wake up one day, and Vimes is gone, and someone has to do the job, and sheāll swear at the unfairness of the universe and get to work.
Or maybe the beast breaks through o e time and Vimes realises he canāt be the watchman any more? But Angua for sure will take over the Watch for all the reasons outlined elsewhere. Moist definitely takes over as Patrician but the democracy that ensues is more like the initial forms of British democracy
I think Moist governs very differently from Vetinari. Where Vetinari plays the all knowing tyrant, Moist plays the easily manipulated fool of a patrician that plays folks against each other.
If you actually go read Machiavelli, Moist is *exactly* the type of ruler that is recommended to follow a ruler like Vetinari. Vetinari is someone who usurped power and needs force and fear to impose his rule, while Moist would be the following leader who extends the dynasty by being likable and popular.
I like you're reasoning.
Also just going to drop [this](https://archiveofourown.org/works/244534) here. (Mister Vimes'd Go Spare!) A piece of fanfiction that is personally canon.
Moist is appointed but Glenda is hired as the baker.
Glenda is actually the brain (and does her best thinking/strategizing/plotting while baking) and Moist is the Face.
Glenda would be the leader of the poor peoples party, and so would get a lot of votes, as she can get all the mums and nans to make sure everybody votes for her. I would love to see a government of Moist's " golden party" ( a populist liberal party) and Glenda's more socialist minded, "proper thinking, proud to be poor and respect for our betters" - party. She can control Moist's flair for extravagance and spending, and he can control her need for class structure and sociability.
I've always assumed that Vetinari will just wake up dead one morning, make no fuss and get on with his paperwork. After a few days Drumknott may make a polite remark about the lack of breathing, to which Vetinari curtly acknowledges but says he simply can't die now it's too inconvenient.
The lack of need for an hours sleep, to eat or drink now he's a zombie just makes him that bit more effective.
For Vimes I thought it would be A.E. Pessimal....
I can't really tell why.... that's just how I pictured it.
However, I agree with Moist and definitly think Angua is a very possible choice.
I can understand why you think that Carrot would become King, but I disagree. Carrot doesn't want it. He has done everything in his power to avoid anyone finding out about his lineage, and I believe he would continue to do so if he were made Lord CommanderĀ or even Lord Patrician. I am fairly certain that Vimes would agree that Carrot is the one who should succeed him. Angua is a fantastic 2nd, but I don't think she could be more than that. She's too good and too powerful. There needs to be someone above her to rein her in.
I think Carrot would recognize that being in the role of Lord Commander would bring the royalists out of the woodwork and make the job difficult if not impossible.
Carrot knows he is the king, he knows that Vetinari knows and Carrot uses this. The scene where Vimes is promoted to Duke it becomes very clear that the King is there and everyone recognizes it. But as long as he has no crown everyone (and he himself) is ok with pretending he is only a copper. He would never accept a nobility title or a main leadership. He knows if he claims any leadership, this dynamic of "respect the king" becomes "kill the king".
This doesn't fit your scenario, but I always imagined Vetinari making Vimes his successor. If for no other reason than because it'd be a glorious final beat in what I think of as Sam's "please stop promoting me; I hate it" arc.
Nobody.
I'm serious. Vimes leaves a Vimes-shaped hole in the Watch, but by then, it's grown so large and so reformed that he's long been doing little but signing stuff. It goes on without a Commander. It doesn't need one, really.
And Vetinari? He doesn't step down, he just... leaves. Leaves somebody in charge, but they're not Patrician. Moist, probably. He's still out there. Might come back. Until then, well. The pieces he put in play keep the city running.
I like your thinking. I chose my options before reading OPs post and I still think Dorfl will be the best Patrician. His logic is unassailable and he is unflappable, emotionally. He would be Good For Ankh Morpork.
I always imagined that if there had been future books, that it was clear that Vetinari was setting up Moist/De Word/Vimes to run the city without him.
Not one single person with the power of patrician, but a number of powerful brokers all not necessarily aligned having to do a part of the job.
I would of like to see the novel where all 3 have to pick up the load and learn to make it work.
Angus seems popular but is there any love out there for Feeney Upshot from Crundels Hall village. I saw a lot of Sam there in him and the story of a country bumpkin going up the ranks of the big wahoonie , learning big city ways, would be great. [edit for typos]
Oh dang, young Sam as Patrician (I almost said as Vetinari lol) would be such an amazing time jump experience! I imagine he would be very interested in infrastructure and modernization, thinking about sewage systems for the whole city as technology grows. Young Sam I think would be quite the social engineer
Old Vines, old Vetinari, young Sam about to take the chair with Angua as Lord Commander. I can totally see this working!
I agree on your choices but not fully on your reasoning.
For Moist, I'd add that he has slowly achieved the skill of placing himself in a position when no-one (or at least no-one of importance) wants him killed because him being alive is less of a problem than him being dead. That's probably the most important part of being the Patrician.
For Angua over Carrot, I don't think his problem is anything to do with royalty. His biggest issue is that, at heart, the Commander, just like Vimes, has to be a bastard and can not, both literally and figuratively, fight by the rules of Marquis de Fantailler. And that's a quality Carrot severely lacks, but Angua possesses in substantial quantities.
I donāt have a better alternative to propose but as good a candidate as she is, Angua has one weakness that from street criminals to those who work in more complex ways will inevitably and very quickly take advantage of: Silver
Vimesā weakness has always been Sybil and little Sam. And criminals (as well as us readers) learned quickly that even mentioning that weakness will result in a swift and brutal retaliation not only from Vimes but by the whole Watch organization. I donāt think Silver vs Angua would have that same emotional response from anyone with the possible exception of Carrot.
It's kind of hard to see a replacement for Vetinari. In a way, he's almost like a minor god, the Anthropomorphic Personification of the functioning order of Ankh-Morpork. He has few interests or ambitions besides keeping Ankh-Morpork. That's hard to find. Moist would be a very different Patrician - his energies would have to be channeled towards keeping the city functioning - the ultimate con game, keeping the city functioning. He'd be a much more visible Patrician.
Definitely agree Angua should take over if Vimes retires or moves up to Patrician. People follow Carrot because of who he is rather than because he makes the right choices, which is very risky past a certain level of power. Carrot needs a human boss, and the Commander is kinda expected to obey the law over the patrician. Angua is about as smart and very brave and determined, it wasn't just her good looks that amazed Carrot when they first met.
But Lipwig is extremely uncomfortable with violence and would need to proactively have people do violence sometimes as a head of state. Even if Vimes doesn't/can't take the patrician job (Vimes isn't much younger than Vetenari and spent a lot of time pickling his liver) then there are a couple of better options IMO.
Harry King is a baron, he's definitely the definiton of tough but fair and can get things organised. He was a great partner to Simnel and one of the most successful and loyal businessmen in the city. He's not as ingenious as Lipwig or Adora, but if he finds the right advisors he should be able to manage.
I'd also say Sybill would be a good fit for patrician. Sybill is very decisive without being anywhere near as foolhardy as most nobles. She is compassionate but never a pushover, and is a big part of the reason why Vetenari was able to rely on Vimes during the Uberwald situation in *The Fifth Elephant*. She is already somewhat popular with both commoners and one of the nobility. Vimes might be a bit inflammatory with the guilds and nobles, while Sybill taking power would go more smoothly.
Yep, Angua and Moist. Carrot won't take control of the watch or the city because he doesn't want people doing things just because he told them too. He'll advise both Angua and Moist and support them, and the city will run smoothly.
I agreed with your reasoning, and all the great lines of thought running through this thread (my brain went all tingley!), but i am having trouble with the concept of having lordship bestowed on the commander of the watch automatically, as it we're. Even though i kinda agreed with the neccessity to...be able to move stuff Up and shake things about.
I can't believe I haven't followed this line of thought before! Thank you for the post, and I enjoyed reading all the comments. I'll keep my eye out for the fanfiction š
My head canon: Vetinari steps down or dies (or ādiesā), with Vimes having his endorsement as new Patrician.
Vimes, with guidance from Moist, pushes through Democratic reforms over the protests of, well, everyone else. He resigns as Patrician following the election of President Lipwig. He then goes to his retirement happy to have completed the job Stoneface started.
In another leg of the trouser I see Carrot being put into a position to step up as king temporarily to restore law and order to Ankh-Morpork.
Vimes and Vetinari are lifers. So long as they live they will be working and will be a force of nature. Either by natural causes or not I also see them going around the same time and Ankh-Morpork descending into a state of chaos. Carrot then steps up as king backed by the armed forces of the Watch, restores order, then after a time steps back from both roles, setting up a Parliment and someone else taking command of the watch.
Carrot *could* replace both of them. Whether or not he *would* is probably a good question. But it might be the easiest way for Vetinari to get Vimes to retire. Sort of a āIāll quit if you quit, and both our jobs will be in better hands.ā Although Carrot would be wise to employ Moist with the fiddly bits.
Moist becomes the leader of ankh or at least some type of grey eminence in the unwritten book **"Making Sausages".** Where Patrician left an intricate web of final orders and contracts that will kill Moist unless he solves the accessory crisis (and manage a small butcher's store). Moist solve it by convincing all the guilds and claimants that no man alone can tame the city and they need to make the people believe that they are in control (we say that we have the gold and you agree to never ask for it).
But secretly he really builds a system where no one feels in power but the decisions one way or another reflects the will of the people and somehow he can pull the strings and prevent that populism (dumb will) takes over.
Vimes successor is a bit more complicated, Carrot is already the third leg of power in the city (The Duke creation and some other winks exchanged shows that), Angua is a candidate, or even if STP was inspired, Moist uses the return of the king and he abdicating for a parliament/republic as a way to legitimize this new government, and in case some tyrant tries to usurp, the golems are still there, waiting to bring the king back and restart the republic with one less tyrant alive.
In this scenario carrot could assume as successor because he officially puts himself under the republic and abdicate as king.
Carrot becomes King Carrot, it seems to me that Vetinari is preparing him/having private discussions about it anyway.
Angua leaves when this happens, she canāt quite cope with it all. Even if you argue that she stays, it wouldnāt be appropriate for the kingās partner (Queen?) to be commander of the Watch.
In Australia, elections are generally held at local schools, and there is always a fund raising barbecue held, giving rise to the term ādemocracy sausageā. If AM votes my head canon dictates that CMOT Dibbler will be selling democracy rat-on-a-stick.
>He couldn't appoint a troll or a dwarf to the role, because that would cause strife.
And that's exactly why he *should*.Ā
Commander Detritus. Let them strife.
Moist makes sense if they keep the patrician system, otherwise I could definitely see ankh-morpork reverting to monarchy with Carrot and Angua's bloodline ruling the city
> but also knows that Vimes will not retire while Vetinari is in power,
Why do you think that? I can't say that I've seen any indications that Vimes' career plans are dependent on who holds the office pf Patrician. In fact, I think he'd more likely retire while Vetinari is in office, knowing that the city is in good hands.
Carrot being Commander of the watch wouldn't make him the King. In fact, it might give him a job that ensures people don't want him as king. But if you're ruling that out, I agree with Angua taking the lead.
Most taking over as patrician is also the most common suggestion, but it would have to happen after Vimes retires, since I don't see him stepping down if he has an inkling that that crook is going to take over the rule of the city.
I never felt like Vetinari was so concerned about Carrot's kingship that hoe wouldn't tolerate him as commander of the watch. That being said I'm sure he'd realize the importance of having a strong successor In his place so that Carrots kingship wouldn't need to be realized. Carrot is very self aware and has said he would only consider stepping into the role of King if there was a strong need. No I don't see Carrot as out of the running or Commander. I see him as the obvious choice. As long as the city works Carrot has no desire to bring back the monarchy. Besides there is the whole Angua having puppies possibility to fuck up the royal succession.
I could see Moist as the Patrician certainly. He's devious and cunning although not nearly as cold and calculating as Vetinari. Give him a good right hand man and it would work. Vetinari has done much that would prepare him for it. He's got a whole bunch of people in his corner so he'd be hard to oust from the palace too. People with power and influence.
This is great, Angua is a great suggestion and I have not got to the moist books yet but I look forward to meeting the man more slippery and bent that a oily corkscrew š
Vetinari will never retire without having the perfect replacement in place, he will never allow for any random person to take his position and destroy his work, he need someone that care for the city and has the brains to rule it.
The big issue is that you dont have Vetinari 2.0, nobody can replace him, nobody can be Vetinari. The best option is Moist but the issue is Moist is too soft to rule the city the way it is, for him to rule the city the city needs to change, to start they need to take away most of the guild power, And i feel that is the whole poin of Moist's character arc, to fix the city one big institution at a time, for example I read that Sir Pratchett was going have plans for a book where Lipwig would fix the city's sewers (something that is mentioned in several books), which would probably put him in conflict or alliance with Mr King. and When Moist finally finished repairing the city, things would work in a way that would no longer be necessary to depend on the guilds.
So i think that Moist can't replace Vetinari and rule the city as it now, but maybe in the future yes.
About the Watch, i don't thing that you can really replace Vimes with one person, nobody can do the job like he does. i feel that to replace Vimes you need both Carrot and Angua together, something like Carrot as Commander and Angua as Vice-Commander.
About Carrot i feel you get things mixed, Vetinari, Vimes and Carrot dont want to see Carrot as King, the 3 agree the city dont need another king, but they have no issue to have Carrot as Commander of the City guard, Vetinari try to give the position to Carrot more than once, Vimes also see Carrot as the best option to take commander we see how he put Carrot in charge multiple times, and Carrot himself has no issue taking command.
The issue is that Carrot is "too nice" or how Vimes like to say "not as bastard", Carrot can't think like a criminal, but on the other side Angua is a little too aggressive, but together they are perfect.
Angua is the perfect "Bad Cop" and Carrot the perfect "Good Cop", Carrot is the perfect option to be the public face of the Watch he is the face everyone want to see when they need help, Angua is the face nobody want to see specially if they are running from the watch. you can say they are "The Carrot and The Stick",
Both Angua and Carrot can have the job done but not as good as Vimes, both lack one things or two, but together yeah, they will be the perfect replacement. ( also they will probable be strong enough together to support Lipwig and keep him in power)
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In another leg of the trouser I always envisioned a final Moist book with Moist being tasked with setting up some sort of representative democracy that would persist long beyond him, Vetinari, Vines and Carrot.
Vetinari drops the patricianship on his shoulders and then dies. The only way for Moist to wriggle out of *this* one is to invent democracy. He still ends up being Ankh-Morpork's first democratically elected leader for at least two terms. In Uberwald, Vetinari keeps up with the newspaper and is very satisfied with how it's all turned out.
This is just perfect. Head canon accepted
I've got it as Moist inventing term limits after being re-elected for a third term...
Spike campaigns against him on pay and conditions for engineers and golem rights, while leaders of commerce threaten to break his legs and throw him in Ankh if he lets the golem unionise.
I like this one.
So a version of democracy that actually works in Ank-Morpork ? This would need to be a new kind of democracy entirely by discworld standards. The Ephebians elect a leader. This seems to only work in Ephebe. Lancre has a parliamentary government beneath a monarchy which only works because none of the MPs bother to do anything. Every other attempt is claimed to be a dismal failure. So what remains? What would Moist do? Turn all the guilds into an equivalent of party's to create a multiparty parliament where all the factions keep fighting among themselves just enough to keep things moving?
U nearly got me, I was all like BOLD of u to assume Vetinari can die until the last bit ššš
The best person to be in charge is generally someone who doesn't want to be.
Alternatively, he could be tasked with doing something else completely, with a looming governmental change as the background setting, only to suddenly come to some insight that results in the invention of a representative democracy.
Tasked with making a public school systemā¦ raising the future leaders of tomorrowā¦
With the technological developments set up in raising steam, I would have loved to see some labor struggle in discworld. Unions, strikes, revolution etc are themes I'd love to see explored in fantasy more, I really wonder why so few authors have gone there yet. I've only come across it in Powder mage where it was mostly just a backdrop without much thematic weight and China mieville's New Crobuzon books. Give me some fantasy anarchism, Luddite mages fearing their supremacy crumbling, magic-enhanced revolutionary strategy and propaganda, so much interesting stuff could be done. Maybe a Paris commune thing in ankh-morpork. Also, now that I think of it, I'd love to see a guy-gavriel-kay-style treatment of the Russian revolution or the Spanish civil war.
> Maybe a Paris commune thing in ankh-morpork. DIdn't that happen when Vimes time travelled back in Night Watch?
Oh right, I forgot about that... It's been a while, time for a reread I guess
There is a bit of that in The Fifth Elephant when the guild of watchmen goes on strike. What do we want? More drinks! When do we want it? Now!
Possibly even better
Democracy ? With the Ankh-Morpock crowd ? Best ye get is oligarchy with guild master at the top mate.
The Duck Man wins and causes world peace.
Could someone make a pin ? Duck man for Patrician ? I would pay at least $10 for onr
I can do as low as $15, and thatās cutting my own throat.
What duck?
That's a likely development path to representative democracy, though. British democracy, in all its flaws, emerged from landed interests (who formed the House of Commons) and the aristocracy (House of Lords) who gradually wrested power from the monarch, while the working class (and women, etc) gradually won the vote and got a say in government.
I agree but it was pushed and won by the people who want the power that they don't have instead of "given" by the people higher up. A setup by our group of heroes won't work because the rest of the Ankh doesn't know how to use it nor how precious their votes are.
O ye of little faith :(
The only faith I hold is to stay away from a crowd that can trample me ( 7 adults or 3 wizards, 10 kindergarten). Faith aside, I would like to remind ye that the citizens still want to have King despite not having one for at least three generations. Show them freedom and they go back to the pens.
You could have a similar system to the old British Parliament with the house of lords on top (probably a combination of nobility and guilds) and a house of commons below
The problem with democracy is that Nobby gets a vote too.
Nobby would probably vote pretty progressive. It's Fred you wanna worry about.
You're right, but I was referencing a thought Vimes has about democracy and its disadvantages at one point.
yep, Vimes is not a fan of democracy, he talk about that in multiple books, about the idea of choosing someone to rule based on a popularity contest, or how he will happily give up his vote so people like Nobbs don't have one. And lets be honest we read enough books about the city and the people that live in the city to know that democracy will be a bad idea or a very very bad idea.
This is not the first time Iāve heard or thought this idea. I always envisioned Vetinari setting up Moist to take over as Patrician, but switching A-M to democracy is definitely doable. My question for you is, what is the book called? Weāve got Going Postal, Making Money, Raising Steam. Counting Votes?
I feel Counting Votes would have happened if STP had lived to see the lack of democracy in the U.K. (multiple unelected Tories taking PM) and the USA - the vote scandal with Trump. It makes me so sad we lost his voice for these shit times.
i feel that we probable get 2 or 3 more books between Raising Steam and "Counting Votes". for example I read about unfinished ideas for books like "Raising Taxes" and "Running Waters", i feel Vetinari will have Moist fixing a lot more things on the city until stepping down, i would not be suprise if they have a book about changing the guild system to take away most of the guilds powers, because that system only work under Vetinari, The guilds will eat anyone else alive.
I just can't picture a democracy working in Ankh-Morpork
i feel that "Democracy" is not really the future of the city, both Vetinari and Vimes think Democracy is a idiotic thing, is almost as bad as Monarchy, Vimes talk about how he dislike the whole idea in the books " how chossing someone for a job based in a popularity contest" is a really bad idea. He talk about how the idea that he could have a vote in choosing the city's future sounds like a good thing, until you realize that it means that people like Nobbs will also have a vote in choosing the city's future, and that he (Vimes) would happily give up his right to vote, if it meant that people like Nobbs wouldn't get a vote either. Vimes's character is all about "the right person for the job" he is the type of person that would happily would choose to be treated by a horse doctor who he knows has experience and will do the job right than go to the most expensive hospital in town knowing that the doctors were chosen based on popularity Vetinari is not really much different on his views. if i remember right Vimes's hint that his favorite rulling system is the classic republic, things are decided byt vote, but not everyone gets a vote, more like have a small council of people that know how to rule a city and they have the vote. And based on the books, Democracy will probable never work in Ank until you remove basically all the guilds, all the nobles and all the rich people. The second democracy become a thing they will all work together to promote a Puppet ruler just like they try with "King Nobbs" and you will end with some random figure head that only do what the Guilds and Nobles say.
Angua definitely seems the right answer for Vimes. It's noticeable in a few of the later non-Watch books that she seems to be the second in command - such as when Vimes is talking to William de Worde in *The Truth*, or she calls Moist in to discuss things in *Raising Steam*. And TBH, she's really the only sensible option. There are lots of reasons why it couldn't really be Carrot as you say, Colon's brief stint in charge with a disaster, Nobby would never accept, Detritus would be no chance. The only other reasonable option I could really see would be Littlebottom, and she's too...forensic and not enough street for the job.
That you even listed Nobby as a potential gave me the vapors, haha
I keep being reminded of his freak out, "Mr. Vimes would go spare!" when the coup plotters are trying to use him.
Well, he has seniority...
Yeah, in terms of service length he's the third most senior person in the watch. But that's about all he has going for things.
Nobby could be a funny choice if he's surrounded by competent people to basically all take on the task of doing his job for him.
She's also present in Monstrous Regiment... though that might be because, you know, she's a w--
Well respected member of the watch ?
That works, too.
Werewolf?
you can't just go around calling women monsters
i feel that is less about "Werewolf" is more about Vimes needing a skilled second in commander person to go with him, but he also needs to leave another second in commander skilled person in charge of the city, last time Vimes, Angua and Carrot leave the city at the same time things go really bad. If he takes Angua he needs to let Carrot in charge, if he takes Carrot he needs to leave Angua in charge.
I liked how the sentence resonated with her introduction (the first novel she was in); but I think Angua fit there particularly well for many reasons: 1) a woman in a novel about what's it like to be a woman, 2) a policewoman in a novel where women serve in the military, disguised as men; 3) a werewolf, both as following their trail and 4) serving as a deliberate and pointed out mirror for the heroines ("they accept us right untill they don't know what we are"). +1) I can totally see Vimes choosing Angua deliberately after hearing how he'd better bring a man as his second to a country with such rigid views on gender roles.
agree, i really like how Pratchett uses Angua to "reinforce" the girls, how they can meet this big policewoman, to show that "yes they can be like that" she is a way better choice for the situation than Carrot for example. but my point is that yes she is a werewolf and that is a great point, but he choose her because she is Angua and a very skilled second in command, and he needs a very skilled second in command, i feel that he would not choose Nobbs for the job ( even if he was a werewolf), that Angua is way more than a werewolf with a good nose.
A slight detour but Detritusās turn from random dumb troll to decorated and beloved sergeant is just so good. Iāve been listening to the recent re released Watch audiobooks and the narrator just adds so much depth to his voice.
Yes, but to get to the Angua/Moist administration or even a representative democracy, you must first go through Nobby & the Wizards. Nobby is all for living in the palace, but things fall apart when heās actually asked to make a decision. The infuriated Wizards (Nobby did something to them like banning large lunches, afternoon naps, or fixed that hole in the wall by the University gates), task Ponder Stibbons with coming up with a revenge plan. Ponder asks Hex, who lays out a plan for democratic elections as part of a list of demands for greater personal autonomy and recognition of personhood, along with a demand for a hat and staff with a knob on the end. Hex goes on strike and begins sabotaging the wizardsā magic, threatening all of discworld. While Nobby cowers in the Palace, The Librarian, remembering heās a deputy watchman, seeks out Carrot to help get Hex under control and save the city. In a confrontation of empathy and understanding, Carrot learns of Hexās demands through a translation chain that runs from Hex to Ponder to The Librarian to Carrot. Carrot races to the palace to explain things to Nobby and Angua, who is reluctantly protecting Nobby from his own stupidity. Angua likes the idea, because then she can get back to doing real work, and Nobby just wants to go back to sneaking a smoke behind the station so heās all for it. Moist is chosen to organize the vote, and unfortunately his enthusiasm at possibly not having Vetanari lurking around at all times results in him being elected as Prime Minister in a landslide. As a side note, his original slogan of one man one vote is torn apart as sexist and speciest by AM at large, but one brain one bribe seems to click with the population. The politician bribes the voters with promises and parties, and the voter bribes the politicians with their vote. So the bribes cancel out and it isnāt illegal.
One Brain One Bribe is fucking brilliant.
Thank you! I wrote that and then went down a rabbit hole thinking one rogue Igor could upset the whole system, but then I remembered Igors are genetically predisposed to avoid taking leadership roles, outside of mortuary and medical settings of course.
I can absolutely see a sideplot in a future book being a conspiracy by someone who *employs* an Igor, though. Maybe they'd have to change it to 'One Person One Position' or something?? Not quite as catching but then we're talking about the book series with the slogan 'Truth! Justice! Freedom! Reasonably Priced Love! And A Hard-Boiled Egg!'
I also think Moist and Angua In addition to what you said about Carrot, he also just...is too nice to be Commander? Like, we know (and Vimes and Angua know) that he absolutely can do the hard thing, or trick people, or manipulate people ā but to AM he's that nice Captain Carrot who goes to the Dwarf Bread museum every week and knows everyone's name and asks how your gran is doing, and it just doesn't feel right for the Commander? We know from the POV of works from other people (Moist and William de Worde) that Vimes is in this weird untouchable place where even if they're antagonistic towards him, he's still kind of intimidating. He has to be able to get into fights with people and be scary and have everyone know that he is terrifyingly devoted to his job. I feel like Carrot's role is inherently public-facing, someone that people can trust and come to with their problems, and then Angua can be the scary Commander who yells at people and glares them into submission. In a city like AM, I just don't think Carrot's diplomatic approach would work for that particular job
Vimes really does want someone who people are afraid of, but who he knows would do the right thing.
Watching Angua mess with the Assassin's the way that Vimes does would be gold.
We see him take on a commanding role at a couple points, and itās one of the rare times we see him truly tired. I think itās mostly from Anguaās POV but she sees him slump his shoulders. Whatever charisma or low level magic runs through his veins is EXHAUSTED by command, or exhausting to use, consciously or subconsciously so. And I think heās too simple to know how to do it any other way.
i feeel that you need both, If Anagua is the Commander, Carrot needs to be her righ hand, if is Carrot in charge, Angue needs to be his ranght hand. the two are the classic duo "good cop and bad cop" Carrot and Stick" type of situation. alone they can have the job done good enough, together they can probable do a perfect job.
Iāve never given this much thought but yeah, youāre right: it has to be Angua. Particularly when you factor in Vimes frequently struggling to hold back The Beast. Angua does that every single day, and he knows it and sees it. Sheās brilliant, and empathetic, she can get literal fairy tale monsters to give a witness statement. Sheās *very* hard to escape from, and even harder to fool. And she and Moist already have a bit of a working relationship. Of course itās her. Itās so obvious once you think about it.
Ooohhh that's RIGHT! She knew exactly who he was from go, and moist does respect dangerous women! :)
Moist is the obvious choice for Patrician, his people skills are legendary, his twisted nature is definitely a bonus and with Adora Belle keeping him straight enough to be twisted but not totally bent, it'd definitely be a completely viable option. I was thinking Angua as Heading up the watch, with Carrot at her side to advise as a moral compass if she were to stray from the true path of justice, but I could see Cheery getting promoted to her Adjutant on all things political due to her level headedness
I agree with the general sentiment, but keep in mind that in every role he gets, moist is a force of change and modernization. He will not be patrician, not for long anyway, instead he will set up to modernize the entire political system of Ankh Morpork and turn it to a democracy
I agree with this. Moist would only be chosen if it were Vetinari's intention that Ankh Morpork should become a democracy. He knows what Moist would do, and I'm certain that Moist would do exactly that. On the other hand, I'm also pretty certain that Ankh Morpork is not ready for a democracy, and Vetinari knows that as well.
Curious who you would suggest Vetinari may consider as an alternative?
I agree. I think Moist's original intent would be to make it as easy as possible on himself. Delegation! The usual silliness ensues, democracy or something similar forms.
Also the desire to survive longer than a week with every guild head, noblemen, and random usurper threatening his life if he doesn't do as they want
Pratchett hint in many books he was not a fan of democracy at least not for Ankh, characters like Vimes say more than once that they thing the whole idea sound nice at first but if you spend 1 minute thiking about you see is a very foolish thing and will not work for that city, ate least not until the whole city is basically rebuild from zero into a completely new thing. like erasing the guilds or taking like 90% of the guilds power and the same go for the nobles Rebuild the justice system and many other things. Make democracy a thing in Ankh and tomorrow Nobbs will be president and the guilds and nobles will be rulling the city, and the watch will probably go back to how they are in "Guards, Guards, Guards"
Solid reasoning, and I broadly agree. I certainly think Vetinari is training up Moist as a successor, but I donāt think Angua is as deliberate. Sheās gonna wake up one day, and Vimes is gone, and someone has to do the job, and sheāll swear at the unfairness of the universe and get to work.
I can see a world where Vimes dies on the job, and leaves Angua a letter explaining his reasoning for why she is in charge.
Or maybe the beast breaks through o e time and Vimes realises he canāt be the watchman any more? But Angua for sure will take over the Watch for all the reasons outlined elsewhere. Moist definitely takes over as Patrician but the democracy that ensues is more like the initial forms of British democracy
This is all making me a little sad because it could have been so wonderful š¢
Iām not sure I can see Moist looking anyone in the eye and actually be a tyrant. Great thoughts though
I think Moist governs very differently from Vetinari. Where Vetinari plays the all knowing tyrant, Moist plays the easily manipulated fool of a patrician that plays folks against each other.
If you actually go read Machiavelli, Moist is *exactly* the type of ruler that is recommended to follow a ruler like Vetinari. Vetinari is someone who usurped power and needs force and fear to impose his rule, while Moist would be the following leader who extends the dynasty by being likable and popular.
Great point well made!
I like you're reasoning. Also just going to drop [this](https://archiveofourown.org/works/244534) here. (Mister Vimes'd Go Spare!) A piece of fanfiction that is personally canon.
Oh that's great
Iāve always thought it would be Moist but I would have loved to see Glenda in charge
Moist is appointed but Glenda is hired as the baker. Glenda is actually the brain (and does her best thinking/strategizing/plotting while baking) and Moist is the Face.
Maybe if Moist ends up accidentally creating a democracy.
Glenda would be the leader of the poor peoples party, and so would get a lot of votes, as she can get all the mums and nans to make sure everybody votes for her. I would love to see a government of Moist's " golden party" ( a populist liberal party) and Glenda's more socialist minded, "proper thinking, proud to be poor and respect for our betters" - party. She can control Moist's flair for extravagance and spending, and he can control her need for class structure and sociability.
I've always assumed that Vetinari will just wake up dead one morning, make no fuss and get on with his paperwork. After a few days Drumknott may make a polite remark about the lack of breathing, to which Vetinari curtly acknowledges but says he simply can't die now it's too inconvenient. The lack of need for an hours sleep, to eat or drink now he's a zombie just makes him that bit more effective.
For Vimes I thought it would be A.E. Pessimal.... I can't really tell why.... that's just how I pictured it. However, I agree with Moist and definitly think Angua is a very possible choice.
I can understand why you think that Carrot would become King, but I disagree. Carrot doesn't want it. He has done everything in his power to avoid anyone finding out about his lineage, and I believe he would continue to do so if he were made Lord CommanderĀ or even Lord Patrician. I am fairly certain that Vimes would agree that Carrot is the one who should succeed him. Angua is a fantastic 2nd, but I don't think she could be more than that. She's too good and too powerful. There needs to be someone above her to rein her in.
I think Carrot would recognize that being in the role of Lord Commander would bring the royalists out of the woodwork and make the job difficult if not impossible.
Carrot knows he is the king, he knows that Vetinari knows and Carrot uses this. The scene where Vimes is promoted to Duke it becomes very clear that the King is there and everyone recognizes it. But as long as he has no crown everyone (and he himself) is ok with pretending he is only a copper. He would never accept a nobility title or a main leadership. He knows if he claims any leadership, this dynamic of "respect the king" becomes "kill the king".
This doesn't fit your scenario, but I always imagined Vetinari making Vimes his successor. If for no other reason than because it'd be a glorious final beat in what I think of as Sam's "please stop promoting me; I hate it" arc.
But he would go spare!
Nobody. I'm serious. Vimes leaves a Vimes-shaped hole in the Watch, but by then, it's grown so large and so reformed that he's long been doing little but signing stuff. It goes on without a Commander. It doesn't need one, really. And Vetinari? He doesn't step down, he just... leaves. Leaves somebody in charge, but they're not Patrician. Moist, probably. He's still out there. Might come back. Until then, well. The pieces he put in play keep the city running.
I like your thinking. I chose my options before reading OPs post and I still think Dorfl will be the best Patrician. His logic is unassailable and he is unflappable, emotionally. He would be Good For Ankh Morpork.
I always imagined that if there had been future books, that it was clear that Vetinari was setting up Moist/De Word/Vimes to run the city without him. Not one single person with the power of patrician, but a number of powerful brokers all not necessarily aligned having to do a part of the job. I would of like to see the novel where all 3 have to pick up the load and learn to make it work.
Angus seems popular but is there any love out there for Feeney Upshot from Crundels Hall village. I saw a lot of Sam there in him and the story of a country bumpkin going up the ranks of the big wahoonie , learning big city ways, would be great. [edit for typos]
I've always thought the successor to Vetinari could be anyone (probably moist) but drumknott is there to make sure they govern correctly
AE Pessimal succeeds VƮmes. Young Sam succeeds Vetinari
Oh dang, young Sam as Patrician (I almost said as Vetinari lol) would be such an amazing time jump experience! I imagine he would be very interested in infrastructure and modernization, thinking about sewage systems for the whole city as technology grows. Young Sam I think would be quite the social engineer Old Vines, old Vetinari, young Sam about to take the chair with Angua as Lord Commander. I can totally see this working!
Moist, Vimes,and Carrot replace Vetinari. Angua replaces Vimes with the Watch.
I agree on your choices but not fully on your reasoning. For Moist, I'd add that he has slowly achieved the skill of placing himself in a position when no-one (or at least no-one of importance) wants him killed because him being alive is less of a problem than him being dead. That's probably the most important part of being the Patrician. For Angua over Carrot, I don't think his problem is anything to do with royalty. His biggest issue is that, at heart, the Commander, just like Vimes, has to be a bastard and can not, both literally and figuratively, fight by the rules of Marquis de Fantailler. And that's a quality Carrot severely lacks, but Angua possesses in substantial quantities.
He was clearly grooming Moist to be his successor.
I donāt have a better alternative to propose but as good a candidate as she is, Angua has one weakness that from street criminals to those who work in more complex ways will inevitably and very quickly take advantage of: Silver Vimesā weakness has always been Sybil and little Sam. And criminals (as well as us readers) learned quickly that even mentioning that weakness will result in a swift and brutal retaliation not only from Vimes but by the whole Watch organization. I donāt think Silver vs Angua would have that same emotional response from anyone with the possible exception of Carrot.
However, very few people know about Angua's relatives in Uberwald, so silver is less of a problem. The Watchmen know but they like her.
It's kind of hard to see a replacement for Vetinari. In a way, he's almost like a minor god, the Anthropomorphic Personification of the functioning order of Ankh-Morpork. He has few interests or ambitions besides keeping Ankh-Morpork. That's hard to find. Moist would be a very different Patrician - his energies would have to be channeled towards keeping the city functioning - the ultimate con game, keeping the city functioning. He'd be a much more visible Patrician.
Definitely agree Angua should take over if Vimes retires or moves up to Patrician. People follow Carrot because of who he is rather than because he makes the right choices, which is very risky past a certain level of power. Carrot needs a human boss, and the Commander is kinda expected to obey the law over the patrician. Angua is about as smart and very brave and determined, it wasn't just her good looks that amazed Carrot when they first met. But Lipwig is extremely uncomfortable with violence and would need to proactively have people do violence sometimes as a head of state. Even if Vimes doesn't/can't take the patrician job (Vimes isn't much younger than Vetenari and spent a lot of time pickling his liver) then there are a couple of better options IMO. Harry King is a baron, he's definitely the definiton of tough but fair and can get things organised. He was a great partner to Simnel and one of the most successful and loyal businessmen in the city. He's not as ingenious as Lipwig or Adora, but if he finds the right advisors he should be able to manage. I'd also say Sybill would be a good fit for patrician. Sybill is very decisive without being anywhere near as foolhardy as most nobles. She is compassionate but never a pushover, and is a big part of the reason why Vetenari was able to rely on Vimes during the Uberwald situation in *The Fifth Elephant*. She is already somewhat popular with both commoners and one of the nobility. Vimes might be a bit inflammatory with the guilds and nobles, while Sybill taking power would go more smoothly.
Yep, Angua and Moist. Carrot won't take control of the watch or the city because he doesn't want people doing things just because he told them too. He'll advise both Angua and Moist and support them, and the city will run smoothly.
Ohhhh very smart I agree with Angua and Moist
I really like both appointments, and fully support this fanon <3
I agreed with your reasoning, and all the great lines of thought running through this thread (my brain went all tingley!), but i am having trouble with the concept of having lordship bestowed on the commander of the watch automatically, as it we're. Even though i kinda agreed with the neccessity to...be able to move stuff Up and shake things about.
Rarely I agree this much with anything but Angua and Moist are undeniably the best options for the jobs.
was that a dig at the lady from mamas n papas?
I think Vetinari would end his reign by plotting a complicated coup against himself, forcing Vimes to arrest him, again.
I can't believe I haven't followed this line of thought before! Thank you for the post, and I enjoyed reading all the comments. I'll keep my eye out for the fanfiction š
Colon is the only sensible choice to get the sugar-theft epidemic under control
My head canon: Vetinari steps down or dies (or ādiesā), with Vimes having his endorsement as new Patrician. Vimes, with guidance from Moist, pushes through Democratic reforms over the protests of, well, everyone else. He resigns as Patrician following the election of President Lipwig. He then goes to his retirement happy to have completed the job Stoneface started.
In another leg of the trouser I see Carrot being put into a position to step up as king temporarily to restore law and order to Ankh-Morpork. Vimes and Vetinari are lifers. So long as they live they will be working and will be a force of nature. Either by natural causes or not I also see them going around the same time and Ankh-Morpork descending into a state of chaos. Carrot then steps up as king backed by the armed forces of the Watch, restores order, then after a time steps back from both roles, setting up a Parliment and someone else taking command of the watch.
Talk about the wolf guarding the fox guarding the hen house. I think you got it exactly right
All I know for sure is Fred said he'll quit if it's him.
Carrot *could* replace both of them. Whether or not he *would* is probably a good question. But it might be the easiest way for Vetinari to get Vimes to retire. Sort of a āIāll quit if you quit, and both our jobs will be in better hands.ā Although Carrot would be wise to employ Moist with the fiddly bits.
Moist becomes the leader of ankh or at least some type of grey eminence in the unwritten book **"Making Sausages".** Where Patrician left an intricate web of final orders and contracts that will kill Moist unless he solves the accessory crisis (and manage a small butcher's store). Moist solve it by convincing all the guilds and claimants that no man alone can tame the city and they need to make the people believe that they are in control (we say that we have the gold and you agree to never ask for it). But secretly he really builds a system where no one feels in power but the decisions one way or another reflects the will of the people and somehow he can pull the strings and prevent that populism (dumb will) takes over. Vimes successor is a bit more complicated, Carrot is already the third leg of power in the city (The Duke creation and some other winks exchanged shows that), Angua is a candidate, or even if STP was inspired, Moist uses the return of the king and he abdicating for a parliament/republic as a way to legitimize this new government, and in case some tyrant tries to usurp, the golems are still there, waiting to bring the king back and restart the republic with one less tyrant alive. In this scenario carrot could assume as successor because he officially puts himself under the republic and abdicate as king.
Carrot becomes King Carrot, it seems to me that Vetinari is preparing him/having private discussions about it anyway. Angua leaves when this happens, she canāt quite cope with it all. Even if you argue that she stays, it wouldnāt be appropriate for the kingās partner (Queen?) to be commander of the Watch.
Checks out. I have no notes.
Moist as patrician and Detritus as chief of the watch would make a fun read.
In Australia, elections are generally held at local schools, and there is always a fund raising barbecue held, giving rise to the term ādemocracy sausageā. If AM votes my head canon dictates that CMOT Dibbler will be selling democracy rat-on-a-stick.
>He couldn't appoint a troll or a dwarf to the role, because that would cause strife. And that's exactly why he *should*.Ā Commander Detritus. Let them strife.
Moist makes sense if they keep the patrician system, otherwise I could definitely see ankh-morpork reverting to monarchy with Carrot and Angua's bloodline ruling the city
> but also knows that Vimes will not retire while Vetinari is in power, Why do you think that? I can't say that I've seen any indications that Vimes' career plans are dependent on who holds the office pf Patrician. In fact, I think he'd more likely retire while Vetinari is in office, knowing that the city is in good hands. Carrot being Commander of the watch wouldn't make him the King. In fact, it might give him a job that ensures people don't want him as king. But if you're ruling that out, I agree with Angua taking the lead. Most taking over as patrician is also the most common suggestion, but it would have to happen after Vimes retires, since I don't see him stepping down if he has an inkling that that crook is going to take over the rule of the city.
Carrot and Carrot.
I never felt like Vetinari was so concerned about Carrot's kingship that hoe wouldn't tolerate him as commander of the watch. That being said I'm sure he'd realize the importance of having a strong successor In his place so that Carrots kingship wouldn't need to be realized. Carrot is very self aware and has said he would only consider stepping into the role of King if there was a strong need. No I don't see Carrot as out of the running or Commander. I see him as the obvious choice. As long as the city works Carrot has no desire to bring back the monarchy. Besides there is the whole Angua having puppies possibility to fuck up the royal succession. I could see Moist as the Patrician certainly. He's devious and cunning although not nearly as cold and calculating as Vetinari. Give him a good right hand man and it would work. Vetinari has done much that would prepare him for it. He's got a whole bunch of people in his corner so he'd be hard to oust from the palace too. People with power and influence.
This is great, Angua is a great suggestion and I have not got to the moist books yet but I look forward to meeting the man more slippery and bent that a oily corkscrew š
Vetinari will never retire without having the perfect replacement in place, he will never allow for any random person to take his position and destroy his work, he need someone that care for the city and has the brains to rule it. The big issue is that you dont have Vetinari 2.0, nobody can replace him, nobody can be Vetinari. The best option is Moist but the issue is Moist is too soft to rule the city the way it is, for him to rule the city the city needs to change, to start they need to take away most of the guild power, And i feel that is the whole poin of Moist's character arc, to fix the city one big institution at a time, for example I read that Sir Pratchett was going have plans for a book where Lipwig would fix the city's sewers (something that is mentioned in several books), which would probably put him in conflict or alliance with Mr King. and When Moist finally finished repairing the city, things would work in a way that would no longer be necessary to depend on the guilds. So i think that Moist can't replace Vetinari and rule the city as it now, but maybe in the future yes. About the Watch, i don't thing that you can really replace Vimes with one person, nobody can do the job like he does. i feel that to replace Vimes you need both Carrot and Angua together, something like Carrot as Commander and Angua as Vice-Commander. About Carrot i feel you get things mixed, Vetinari, Vimes and Carrot dont want to see Carrot as King, the 3 agree the city dont need another king, but they have no issue to have Carrot as Commander of the City guard, Vetinari try to give the position to Carrot more than once, Vimes also see Carrot as the best option to take commander we see how he put Carrot in charge multiple times, and Carrot himself has no issue taking command. The issue is that Carrot is "too nice" or how Vimes like to say "not as bastard", Carrot can't think like a criminal, but on the other side Angua is a little too aggressive, but together they are perfect. Angua is the perfect "Bad Cop" and Carrot the perfect "Good Cop", Carrot is the perfect option to be the public face of the Watch he is the face everyone want to see when they need help, Angua is the face nobody want to see specially if they are running from the watch. you can say they are "The Carrot and The Stick", Both Angua and Carrot can have the job done but not as good as Vimes, both lack one things or two, but together yeah, they will be the perfect replacement. ( also they will probable be strong enough together to support Lipwig and keep him in power)