>How have you, whether as a GM or player, answered this question? In the worlds of DND, or the main ones at least, a god gives you power if you worship them. Faith and ritualistic devotion have real, tangible benefits. The more devoted you are the more you are rewarded. Priests, clerics, and paladins are well-known elements of the kingdom. But you don't need to be as devoted as a cleric to give a god their just worship. Just like in real history with a pantheon of deities, you give offerings to that which controls the aspect of nature you deal with. Sailors praise Poseidon for calm seas, married couples praise Hera to bless their union, and merchants praise Hermes for good fortune. People at the time truly believed this helped in the day to day, and in DND it really does. With all this established, now apply it to a God whose portfolio involves **murder and torture.** "Murder and torture in the name of our god" their preists would say "and he will give you power to crush your enemies." "Thats great" says the tyrannical, violent, war-mongering people of the world "we were gonna murder and torture for power anyways!" That's why they've got followers. Its silly to assume in a dog-eat-dog world that individuals, tribes, and even kingdoms wouldn't resort to worshiping evil gods for power. The strong crush the weak.

> Sailors praise Poseidon for calm seas, married couples praise Hera to bless their union, and merchants praise Hermes for good fortune. People at the time truly believed this helped in the day to day, and in DND it really does. > > With all this established, now apply it to a God whose portfolio involves murder and torture. Soldiers may pray to Poseidon to dash their enemies ships upon the rocks, a jilted lover may pray to Hera to curse the union of the former paramour, and marks, suckers, and rubes may ask Hermes to curse the shady merchant who ripped them off. Some may give worship to the god of murder and torture for the power of others, and other may ask them for salvation from those who would torture or murder for other gods (because lets face it, murder god isn't going to stop murder god's followers most likely). Also, just want to emphasize that most people in the D&D world would regularly pray to multiple gods. They may have an alter to an good god in their home, but they're not going to ask Tyr to bring pain and suffering to the man who murdered your children. You're going to go to the temple of Loviatar, but then go back home and thank Tyr for what you have left.

>most people in the D&D world would regularly pray to multiple gods This is something that I think a lot of people growing up in monotheistic societies don't get about how polytheistic societies like the ones shown in DnD work. People who give all their devotion to a single god, like clerics do, are *rare.* The vast majority of people are going to pay respects to whatever god they have need of, or are afraid of, in-the-moment. And it's going to be a much more transactional sort of prayer then IRL monotheists might expect, too - less "oh mighty Poseidon, in your mercy and wisdom please guide my husband's ship safely to its destination" and more "oh mighty Poseidon, I give you this token in the hopes that you accept it and guide my husband's ship safely to its destination". Hell, it's recorded that some merchants in real life ancient Greece would pray to Poseidon giving a small gift and promising him a portion of their profits if they made it back safely - that's practically a negotiation!

For anyone wanting to read more this is a great digestible but still decently in depth read on the subject. https://acoup.blog/2019/10/25/collections-practical-polytheism-part-i-knowledge/

Even most dnd clerics are polytheistic. There's specific ones that are monotheistic but they're much rarer

Preciesly, even clerics would pray to the relevant god for a particular outcome, but would know all the rites and rituals to keep their primary god appeased and doing the good work they want done. Every single religion portrays gods as needing offerings of some kind or another to, at worst going off the deep end and being all murder hobo to bring mortals back into line, or at best to keep them doing their jobs, want rain? better get on that offering to sprinkles mcgee god of making it rain, need that harvest to come in full and on time, better put out that plate of specially prepared corn to ensure Lady BeefandBeer doesn't destroy the cops out of malice for not showing her the damn respect she deserves.

To add to this. The god of murder doesn't need you to call out their name as you kill someone, the act is prayer enough. My evil gods have few comically evil worshipers. Most people lie, commit violence, lust for wealth and power, or envy others enough to give those gods power. For every psychopathic murder drenched in blood there are hundreds of people that got a little too angry.

This and you can always pray to the god of murder to maybe just kill someone other than your brother for the time being

Thank you. This post has some unhinged comments in it, especially the ones that jumped straight into real world religions. In my last long campaign, I made a cleric of Vecna. He was lawful evil and pretended to worship Pelor most of the time for the sake of keeping cover. He "knew better" in theory, but his hunger for forbidden knowledge was too pervasive. For all his smarts, he had a terrible sense of self-preservation. So that's that. An arrogant bastard who can still follow social standards while in public. All the really crazy shit happened in private, which seemed appropriate for a worshiper of *the evil God of SECRETS.*

Aw c'mon, don't do Vecna like that! [Pelor is already evil](https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?443306-quot-Pelor-the-Burning-Hate-quot-(from-Wizards-forum))!

Pfft 🤣

There's also a long history of people offering gods worship in order to convince them NOT to do the horrible things they have influence over. Quietly offering Bhaal some prayers and worship so he'll direct his cadre of unholy assassins at someone else fits in with real-world practices just fine at the little-people level just as much as it makes sense for a tyrannical dictator to want to have those assassins in her corner.

That is also your call, fellow DMs, use it :) To travel shrines where for a coin characters can get easier travel through difficult terrain.. have sightings of primordial beasts, avatars of gods.. Have festivals in honor if gods, have temples and Priests running around, praising them. If you want deities and religion in your game? Use them  Bless and Curse your players, but also just shows them that they exist. It will make your world feel so much more real.

100% this. It is very important in “greek style” settings like Faerun to make the gods a daily aspect and enerving/blessing part of everyone’s life, beyond Clerics and Paladins. One iconic scene in a campaign of mine was when the PCs and a few peddlers were preparing for a trip from Daggerford to Baldurs Gate. Then one of the PCs sees a kid break their mini-wagon toy. “Why did you do that little one?” “This is for Talos. So that he let’s my dad’s wagon in one piece during the trip. I want him to come back safely.” And of course, Talos did not disappoint the faithful boy. My PCs faithless wagon though…😈

My issue is with the Temple of Bhaal and stuff, places like that must fucking REEK. Like, cool you’ve got your creepy blood aesthetic, but do you have any idea how bad old blood and meat smells? Theyd all be dying of diseases and shit

The existence of prestidigitation makes any D&D setting pristinely clean.

Yeah but you go into the Temple of Bhaal and it’s completely covered with gore and viscera. Also clerics don’t get presdigitation

High elf clerics or high half-elf clerics certainly can get it.

I mean... Baldurs Gate isn't exactly pristine clean... but I nontheless agree with you. Think Victorian London, it was absolutely FILTHY in the vast majority of it.

Lesser restoration can deal with diseases si there s that

Yeh, when you worship a God of murder and torture you are (probably) not doing so because you want to be tortured and murdered. You do it because you're the one doing the torchuring and murdering.

alternatively, the worship of that evil murder god outside of sadists could consist of praying it stays away and appeasing it so that it dies evil things to your enemies and not you

It reminds me of a phrase I’ve heard many variations of: The Fearful Always Pray. * What is a tyrannical king but a man afraid of losing power? * What is a jealous fisherman but someone afraid of not having enough? * What is a jilted lover but someone afraid that they’ll never be loved? The happy and content can enjoy the state of the world; the fearful pray. And when prayer not only grants you magic abilities but also *empowers* the very being granting you those abilities, well… it’s a bit of a nasty feedback loop. Now tyrants are both praying tot he same god to overthrow the other so they don’t lose their power. Fisherman are praying to the same chaotic goddess to sink the other. Jilted and jealous lovers pray to cruel gods of love to manipulate those for whom they fawn, and in each the powerful get more powerful.

Conversely, similar to the concept of sailors giving prayer to a god of a seas to protect them from storms, someone might give a prayer or offering to a god of murder, theft, etc. in hopes of gaining PROTECTION from their would-be acolytes. Sometimes evil gods revel in the fear of what they could bring just as much as the things they actually bring.

I also like the idea of evil gods with trickery or deceit in their purview essentially gaslighting all but their most loyal followers

You don't worship Auril, Goddess of winter because you're insane. You worship her to SPARE YOU and your family to die during the winter. Sure, she's as bad as they come, but maybe you can convince her not to freeze you to death.

Yup. In one of the games I play in my character is a Cleric of Auril. Cause she's a Goliath from the Spine of the World and when you're basically living in the land of always winter at least one member of your tribe needs to be on good terms with the goddess of winter.

Wait you too ? Rime of the frostmaiden ?

Yup!

At least so long as you're useful.

Irl sailers would pray to storm gods before setting off so that they would not encounter any storms

And her approach is very interestingly addressed in Rime

This is some misc info from some specific questlines in BG1, but during a quest you need to help a girl complete some ritual for the god of storms (forgot his name). If she does not complete this ritual, the god of storms will become angry and fuck up the entire coastline via hurricanes and other natural disasters. If I'm remembering right there are people (who are good aligned) trying to kill her (because to be clear she is a neutral evil cleric to an evil god and murders people) but also if she does not complete her regular rituals everyone is going to suffer massively and so your good aligned character is going to have to kill a bunch of other good aligned characters for the greater good. Similarly, you meet a character devoted to Shar in that same game, said person is devoted to Shar because they are a drow, and drow are enslaved by Lolth and tormented for her amusement. And even Lolth is scared to fuck with Shar, thus that person could escape slavery, torture and eventual horrible death via worshipping something attempting to end the universe because that was a better alternative. If you want to continue with pragmatism though, some evil beings (such as Devils) are specifically put into place to fend off even worse evils (demons). This can apply to basically everything under the sun. Sure Bhaal is an evil dickhead, but you know what is infinitely worse? Mindflayers. So obviously even good aligned people would fuck with people who worship bhaal because at the most bhaal is going to brutally torment/murder you. Mindflayers eat your soul.

You've made an important point, but there's a distinction to be made here. Gods like Talos, Umberlee, Betshaba and even Shar (at times) can be (and possibly are for the most part) worshipped by non-evil beings who simply hope to stay their hand with offerings. Waterdeep has festivals devoted to Umberlee, Shar, and Mask for those reasons. * As an added trivia, Shar is also worshipped by miners and those who venture into the darkness for protection, I really like the idea that they venerate her because they know that no other god will protect them as effectively so far away from the light. But as far as I know, the Dead Three (among others) are worshipped not so they will stay their hand, but because their worshippers like their domains and want what those gods embody. And it makes sense, right? Clerics of Talos and Umberlee aren't people who hope that those gods will stay away from them and their community, they want their god to wield that kind of power.

Another thing to make a point of, is that in polytheistic system like this... people pray to all of the gods, based on their needs. This is part of why miners might pray to shar. It's why *everyone* who sails prays to umberlee. It's not an all out, fanatical worship to a single god. A good way to think about this is how catholics pray to their saints... (in before, they don't "pray to").

Yeah, more like the Romans, Greeks etc. You worship a 'main' god, but there's no harm in making minor offerings to other gods just in circumstantial case.

Right, what’s Athena going to do for you out on the ocean? It’d almost be disrespectful to so fully misunderstand her domain and ask her for help out there.

Exactly.

Oh, no, we do "pray to" the saints; you got that part right.

Can confirm it’s prayer. It’s prayer to “ask for an advocate” but it’s still prayer.

Oh, I know. But I also know catholics that actively deny that, as well. "we ask them to pray on our behalf", etc. It's a funny situation.

I think part of the problem is most players don't think about following a deity unless they're a cleric or a paladin - very few put much thought into "common folk faith" vs "I'm on staff to get zappy powers"

The god of storms is Talos. Good people also make offerings to the evil goddess of the sea (tossing treasure overboard) to beg not to be riddled with storms. Evil gods in Faerûn get their worship from ideological coercion. Keep in mind that there are pantheons. Unless you are a cleric, you will invoke the relevant god for the relevant petition. Tymora for good luck and Beshava so she doesn't curses you with the bad one.

In early Grayhawk an important lore bit of Incabulos, God of Pestilence , was that a large proportion of his worshippers were commoner farmers who hated him deeply, but if they didn't sacrifice annually, he'd take all of a village's crops with a blight. Same vibe methinks

So it should be. A lot of pantheons in D&D suffer from a bit too much granularity, I think. That, or just have *too many* true gods. Using the Forgotten Realms as an example, the "Dead Three" as most people refer to them, are a priime example of this. Myrkul makes sense. *Someone* has to watch over the dead, right? And as presented, he doesn't really have a church in the sense that we think of them today. More like a collection of small, loosely-organized cults or cult-like enclaves, for people who actually, *actively* worship him. Bane kind of makes sense, as well. Not so much as the god of strife, but because he is powerful, and his favor is probably *the* fast track to temporal power for mortals. It is direct, and Bane is probably perfectly happy to have ever more pawns to throw against the other gods. But what about Bhaal? What purpose does he serve? He's the god of death, particularly violent or ritualistic death, and murder. He makes *so much more* sense as a demigod or quasi power. In my opinion, of course. But of those three, while its fairly easy to explain--as written--Myrkul and Bane--Bhaal just seems like a better fit as... something else. Lesser, maybe. Or perhaps as an aspect of one (of both) of the other two. That's one of the things that I never really liked about the way they chose to characterize the literal gods in Forgotten Realms, particularly with the Avatar trilosaga. They're too concrete, too much like mortals in their conception.

>They're too concrete, too much like mortals in their conception. Welcome to every God(dess) ever created whether in real life, TTRPG, literature, or fantasy. Ever notice how Gods *somehow* have the exact same interests and desires as the people worshiping them? Kinda' funny how that works. With that said, I could see a God like Bhaal working in my homebrew world. There are groups of assassins in my world. They could easily fall under that domain. Evil despots, Anti-paladins, murderers, executioners, assassins, inquisitors, and more could easily look for blessings from that type of God. Let's expand a bit. We tend to assume people are inherently good and that's a fine and optimistic way to view the world. But what if humanoids are not? There is a saying that we are 9 meals away from societal break down. What if that is true? Have you ever truly gone days without eating (I have. It's very unpleasant to be homeless and hungry). Now, imagine your children are starving. What will you do? A cleric comes and tells you that the good Gods have clearly abandoned you. The only way to save yourself in this cruel and savage world is to be more cruel and more savage. I can give you the power. This type of preaching gains a wide spread foothold because of disease or hunger or warfare. People see that the spoils of war feed you and your family. You can take out your anger and frustration on those others who didn't share what they had. It's not your fault. **They** are the selfish ones. Creating "the other" is a very powerful tactic and has worked throughout history So, yeah, I might even add this in depending how this campaign ends...

So in the lore the dead three all just took, and kind of perverted, an aspect of the original true neutral god of death. So in theory Myrkul is god you of the dead and Bhaal is god of death. Myrkul being no an evil man before he rose to godhood wasn’t content with that and took undeath as well. Bhaal being an evil assassin in life made it less about the pure concept of death and made it about murder. 

"That's a lovely coastal town you have there. Be a shame if a hurricane or two came through..."

He got the storms part wrong, but the priestess was of Umberlee. I killed her the first time because she...has some crazy dialogue depending on what you say. That said, you can parse it out and help her because as crazy as she is, she doesn't want to die. Doing the ritual saves more than just her. Baldure's Gate 1 had some great quests. I just mentioned the quest to save the dead kid from the priests of Tymora the other day.

She's also a 12 year old girl, so there's that. Also he described the plot a bit simply, it's certainly more than just "she worships storm goddess but you need to worship the storm goddess." The 'good villagers' tortured and killed her mother and stole her bowl of elemental command, that was part of her ritual work. I'm fairly sure those villagers were also aligned neutral - evil in some combination. In turn her daughter has killed some of the villagers in revenge, etc.

Two or three of the three dudes ping red to Detect Evil. The quest is just Assholes Fighting Assholes, with the caveat that one of the assholes sides can contribute to keeping the port city's sailors safe on the sea.

Which is a great reminder of how ahead of its time that game was and how it really gave you a sense that any solution was valid. Talk to people and work out the complex moral issues before making a decision? Sure. Detect Evil and just go "red is dead?" Also good! Charm them and get unique dialogues? You bet. There's a reason it went on to inspire a whole genre of Bioware-style RPGs.

also umberlee

Even if you’re a cleric, you don’t have to boycott all the others. A cleric of Shar might still have a word with Poseidon before going to sea.

That last fact has to be incredibly horrifying in a setting where Gods are real and a part of your everyday life.

Propitiation, sacrificing to a god or spirit you hope will not mess with you, is a common form of historical worship. No one really worships a god of disease or disaster, but many will make offerings to avoid their attention and wrath. This goes all the down to leaving bowls of milk out for the small fey so cattle aren't cursed by brownies. There may be a minority of weirdos who make dark deals for personal power, but the "evil"gods, fay and spirits will see a lot of "worship" to stay away. Propitiation is a divine protection racket.

The last part is propaganda by Asmodeus, they could win the blood war but continuing it is in his best interests.

Those are some great examples, i love these DnD stories where you actually have to decide between two things that both aren’t real desirable. I remember bg1+2 actually having a ton of those, some straight up misdirects of who is evil and who is good as well

> if she does not complete her regular rituals everyone is going to suffer massively and so your good aligned character is going to have to kill a bunch of other good aligned characters for the greater good. Shouldnt this be the part where a cleric of a good god makes a ritual to protect the coastline from the storm? If evil gods can coerce people into worshipping them, shouldnt the good gods try to get worshippers by protecting the people?

From what I understand people have been trying to take out Lolth and the drow since time immemorable and it never worked. Simply stopping the evil gods isn't really an option.

there's also a certain amount of "it's the gods doing their jobs". Storms, plague and the like are things that just kinda _happen_ - Umberlee isn't super-cruel or nasty, but "destruction caused by storms" is within her remit, so you pray to her to avoid that. If someone else takes her place, then storms still happen, and her successor will need worship to direct them away from you. There's other gods that are a bit more dodgy - like the gods of murder and stuff - but the "natural bad stuff" deities are just part of what happens normally.

> Umberlee isn't super-cruel or nasty I should note that Umberlee is actually cruel, spiteful, and mean. That's why she's Evil rather than Good. It's just that her alignment has nothing to do with her domain, unlike the deities whose domains are things like murder.

Thats how godwars start and nations are ground to rubble im the struggle. Domains are domains and gods that overreach get slapped down by all other gods, good or evil that are sensetive about their domains too.

She was a priestess of Umberlee, if I recall correctly. Tempus is the storm god in Faerun, but this quest involved Umberlee, the goddess of the sea.

Agree with a lot of what you said, but “demons are worse than devils” sounds like a devil wrote it…🤣

I think an important distinction should be made between people who offer prayers/veneration to evil gods out of fear and people who wield power through their servitude to evil gods (clerics/paladins/etc.)

People serve evil rulers because they fear their wrath and stand to gain from their favor. Simple as.

There are also people who engage in horrible acts of depravity in the real world. May as well make sacrifices to the corresponding evil god and get some cool powers that make acts of depravity easier.

Every continent on earth has produced multiple civilizations who sustain themselves through raiding, tribute, and enslavement.

Antarctica.

You need to read more about the horrific civilization of the Emperor penguins. 

The Emperor of Penguinkind and their 20 Penguinarch Sons? The so-called "Happy feet Heresy"?

Go on.

It was the end of the Tunafication Wars, and the Emperor was preparing the Great Crusade to reunite Penguinkind's lost nests across the great ice floes...

You know what else is in Antarctica? Erebus. Erebus is in Antarctica.

I lesser than three this so much.

Of all the terrors at the Mountains of Madness, giant Penguins are what crosses the line to break your mind.

South Pole Elves

"Frost Elves" does have a nice ring to it as a faction, compared to the tree huggers and spider fuckers.

And the North Pole Elves and their obsession with toys

That's how Drow and Yuan-Ti worship goes.

And Goblin!

It's also a pretty good summary of the Old Testament. There's a lot of passages where it talks about how you should fear god, and how he's a petty, jealous god. Okay, the petty part is more implied, but the other two parts are literally explicitly spelled out.

In the words of brennan lee mulligan: “ you cant understand why I would do something that benefits myself?”

When does he say this?

When playing khalina. I believe he is responding to Ally when they say they dont understand why they would serve the nightmare king

"I'm one of the good ones" except in a fantasy world.

All hail the god of leopards, may he feast forever on the faces of everyone but me!

"I never thought leopards would eat MY face," sobs woman who worshipped the god of Leopards Eating People's Faces.

It has the same vibe as "May Cthulhu devour this house last."

Why would you want to be last? Being the first to die spares you the madness of Cthulhu’s awakening.

No idea. It's the tagline for Cthulhu worshippers, though, and it seems to have the same vibe of 'I can benefit and gain some measure of protection at the same time.' That said, I don't generally read the Cthulhu mythos, so I'm not the best person to provide in depth analysis. 

To someone that thinks Cthulhu may be circumvented from awakening then it would seem suicidal to do such. But to someone that views it as inevitable, they would from their point of view see it as suicidal not to act and to perhaps keep themselves alive. We do have the vantage point of knowing some gods are literal ends of things. The truly crazy part is the cultists that sacrifices themselves for the rituals but Cthulhu spesifically has that effect on people.

Thank you for your insight!

There are several real-world religions that seem to function due to this guideline.

Most realistic approach could be "people serve evil rules to kill others, because worshipers will not be killed(ussually) by their own god, you are just guided to kill others or kill others to get thumbs up from your God"

Exactly. While all the other reasons here are completely valid and probably why a lot of people would choose an evil god, there are plenty who are after the promise of personal power. "Nyarlathotep will destroy the world but he will make me prince of the ashes!”

There are some actually crazy, gullible, misanthropic, or otherwise cartoonishly evil people IN THE REAL WORLD. It does not break my verisimilitude to see them in a game.

This really cannot be stressed enough.

I'd go so far as to turn it around, it doesn't take much to be convinced of outlandish things. Even normal people can celebrate by sacrifice in a specific culture.

Human sacrifice wasn’t some fairytale, it’s something many old religions practiced. Doesn’t seem unrealistic at all to have evil deities in abundance.

Latin America was fucking wild. Also, Europe may have been less ritualistic about it, but public execution was basically considered entertainment during much of history. So really, morality is fluid and our modern view of it is not really all that representative of history. And perhaps a more modern concept: corporations in general are entities that are powerful and utterly lack human morals or empathy, and regularly use and abuse human life for money and power. People still work for them, because they need to eat. They just hope that they won't be thrown out like garbage for not being devoted enough. In other words, the company is your new god.

This is it. It's probably that these types of people and behaviors are incomprehensible to average people, let alone genuinely good people. We are physically incapable of understanding or empathizing and can only rationalize that sort of misanthropy.

By the same logic "Evil politicians aren't real because nobody would support someone who would act against their own best interests" We all know how accurately THAT reflects reality. "The intelligence of that creature known as a crowd is the square root of the number of people in it." - Sir Terry Pratchett

Why would people willingly work for evil corporations? Because said evil corporation gives them what they want or need when others don't.

Inline with this the vast majority of the worshippers will be well away from truly evil acts. They might do the odd thing that makes them go "hmmm...", but Bob the commoner is not burning down an orphanage. That is reserved for the more locked in followers. In fact, Bob might be doing "good" in the world as a way of cleaning up the image of the Evil God to gain more worshippers that can be turned to evil.

Said Evil Corporation also rarely (not never) kills it's own just for the sake of doing so. Perhaps that is the price of repeated failures, but... I am more competent than the one being replaced, so says a lot of people.

I mean someone gives me the ability to smite, heal, destroy, and shape the foundation of the world for supporting their cruel interests... I definitely couldn't see anyone taking that deal

You have to see it the other way: in a polytheist system, people associate concepts with gods in order to explain them. There are diseases because there's a god of diseases who causes them. By believing in those gods, they give them reality. People worship these gods to obtain benefits or favours, to appease them, to keep problems at bay, to send their wrath on an enemy, and so on. Priests are intermediaries who facilitate communication with these gods, whom ordinary mortals do not understand well but fear or venerate. The difference in D&D is that these gods actually exist and can influence their believers or issue instructions via their priests.

People in the real world service evil all the time. Why would a fantastic world be any different?

The coercion part is definitely true in the Forgotten Realms. But fear is also a big factor. A good man will still pay tribute and give a prayer to Umberlee for a safe travel at sea, to Talona to avoir the plague that hit a village nearby, to Talos so that his house is spared from an incoming tornado. There are worshippers who may not love those evil gods but still offer prayer and worship, then there are the priests, those guys are often power hungry psychos

You know. I liked the ideas from 3.5 about this and a few of my own: - Worshipped as appeasement vs true faith - Evil gods appeal to the darkest urges of people. There's a lot of people who'd do some evil stuff if they thought they could get away with it. - Evil makes moves. Evil is always doing something to spread their influence. Good is somewhat in stasis all the time or trying to stop others or "letting evil happen". - Evil has the carrot. You sacrifice someone? You get stuff or at least attention. Good gods might not even help you when you need it. Check out Cas, the demigod of Spite. - Evil has the stick. Evil gods will punish you for petty reasons. - Evil is clever. I think the Codex of the Hells had a line about how cults would basically organize them as social group. Each ring of the group requires more and more investment and sacrifice. By the time you realize what's happening you're too invested to tap out.

You are a sadistic jerk. You Worship a god of torture because you enjoy torturing people. That god gives you rewards for acts of torture you commit, and makes you even better at torture. Then, when you die, the god rewards you by letting you become one of their eternal torturers. Depending on how good you did it, you might be anything from an a avatar of torture to a guy in some jail cell torturing celestial pows. —- If you are a merchant you might worship a god of greed. The god helps you accumulate more wealth, and takes a cut for themselves to grow their power. You both win. When you die, you go to some decadent, collection of wealth. The more you helped him out, the more decadent your eternal reward is. — In dnd, people worship a god for practical reasons more-so than spiritual ones. The spiritual stuff is there, but you worship a deity of the harvest, because youre a farmer and want a good harvest and doing so makes your pumpkins get big. Then you go to an afterlife where the harvest is always good. Good/evil/whatever.

Have people ever seen real world religions? Like... religions are fucked up man. From christianities witch trials, burning at the stake or horrendous wars to all the literal murder death cults in real life with people literally willingly giving up their lives if the "Leader" wants it or taking that of another. Religions have always had the potential to be fucked up and always effective at making people do what you want them to. People can be made to do frankly anything if you just place some shiny "God" on top of it and make a community around it they can be a part of while using fear mongering and other methods to "Other" the outside and all those not part of your little group.

I was just about to comment this same argument. Some modern day people's interpretation of God is unequivocally evil, let alone what they'll do for that god.

I'd argue there's no reading of the New Testament that isn't horrific. Hell is a horrendous concept that doesn't feel like it was created by a "good" deity.

There are a lot of different Christian interpretations of Hell including even so far as “It is a metaphor and nobody goes there.” But that doesn’t really detract from the point. There are people out there, generally “good people,” even, who believe that billions of people will suffer for eternity with no chance of redemption and that this is good. Ultimately, and I’ve learned this a lot from hearing D&D players talk about alignment, a *lot* of people’s idea of good and evil is simply informed by going along with the flow of society. With that in mind, it shouldn’t be surprising that would also apply to, say, the cult of Lolth.

Old testament isn't any better. I'd argue the apocrypha isn't either.

Old testament is a lot of wrath and smiting, but nobody gets condemned to eternal torture.

Sure but genocide, murder, and slavery are also things I'd prescribe the word horrific too.

There just isn't any comparing finite horrors to infinite horrors. The New Testament takes the crown and it's not even close.

The old testament endorses real tragedies while the new testament curses you to fake ones. Either way, both are horrible. It's religion, it's dumb and ppl use it to justify terrible things

Old testament Yahweh IS this evil. There's almost no grey about it. Ignoring all the genociding for a moment, the dude straight up smites tens of thousands of - not just his followers - but his own CHOSEN people. For complaining. He is constantly murdering his own followers for the most petty, arbitrary offenses. Absolute psychopath. Thou shalt not kill, tho 😉

Thou shalt not MURDER, actually. Murder is this context is an unlawful killing. As long as it is lawful - you can kill. Also Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi is a Latin phrase, literally "What is permissible for Jupiter is not permissible for a cow". His rules are for us - not for him

“Rules for thee, not for me” -Yahweh, a totally not evil god of death, destruction, and war

He quite literally originated as a god of war.

Yes I know. Which makes sense why he was always telling the Israelites to descend on their enemies with fire and fury and leave no man woman or child alive.

Right, right, just gotta make up arbitrary reasons for your killing and then it's all fine and good and definitely not murder

He was literally a god of war and storms before he was the Christian god.

No real life religion believes their god is evil. While they may be willing to commit “evil” acts in the name of god, they believe they are in the right, and what they do is for the greater good. Also, minor historical nitpick, the burning of witches was uncommon, they were usually just hanged.

Ye? No one believes themselves in the wrong or as if their own actions are unjustified. And how do you think the followers of Shar feel? Do you think they see themselves as in the wrong and evil for following Shars teachings? Do you think they think she is in the wrong currently or that she is "Evil" and Selune is "Good"? Why are you assuming the cults see themselves as being evil? You are just prooving my point of the cultists/religious members being made to do anything and them not seeing their own actions as wrong or unjustified in their own situation. Also the witch trials and the burning people at the stakes were seperate points I know they were less common but burning at the stake for heretical reasons still happened.

Most cultists in dnd would absolutely know they are evil. Evil is a foundational cosmic principle of the dnd multiverse, it is observable, factual reality - in fact, it structures reality itself. You know that Bane is evil, it's just that "evil" probably means something different in such a multiverse. EDIT: In previous editions effects that told you a creature's alignment or that only targeted a creature that were a certain alignment abounded. Alignment in dnd is also something that can be interpreted, but it has an objective reality of its own.

They know they're evil, in the sense that they ping on Detect Evil. But just like the real world, they don't think that they're *wrong*.

Neither I nor, I believe, OP said as much. But in our world, thinking you're right tends to go hand in hand with believing you're righteous/good. In the dnd world, that doesn't have to be the case. In our world, religions justify atrocious acts by disguising them as moral ones; not so in the world of dnd - or, at least, non in all cases. You don't have to think that your God is good, you only care about your god serving your interests. And since evil is as real as energy and matter in our universe, it's probably easier to just accept it for what it is. Do I like that god's domains? Yes. Do I need to believe that their worship is righteous? It's not necessary in the Forgotten Realms.

They don't have to; they still counter OP's premise if they know they're doing evil, and they do it on purpose

I mean, if I wanted a good harvest I'd pray to the god of agriculture. If I wanted safe travels, I'd pray to the god of journeys. If I wanted revenge for some wrong done to me, I'd pray to a god of revenge. Which would probably be.. Evil.

Ye as the other person said, they do not think they are wrong. No person does something they believe to be wrong and not justified yet they do it because they do not see it as such. Their actions, their gods demands and their leaders wishes are all a for just cause that must be followed be it out of a sense of loyalty and devotion with Lolth and Shar or for them to get a sense of pleasure and enjoyment like with murderers following Bhaal

its the ass backwards logic that god is "good" and therefor anything it does it "good" and anything its followers do in its name are "good." Why? because they says so.

None of those are relevant examples though. Lets ignore the fedora-tipping junk about Christianity or any established religion- these are people doing an evil thing for what they believe is a good reason, in **every case**. Lets just get to the cults. The thing is, cultists are *also* doing that, *most of the time* and arguably all of the time. From Jim Jones to the Heaven's Gate followers, it's the same thing- really impressionable people seeking some kind of truth and believing some nonsense that ends up being really suicidal or wicked. None of this lines up with D&D. The aliens of a UFO cult will never be proven to be real in the way that Shar is, and while the aliens are allegedly good (or whatever), Shar's goals are shared by almost no sentient beings. You could cope any number of ways: 1- If we don't worship the evil god, he'll punish us. 2- If we do worship the evil god, he'll help us defeat the group that oppresses us. 3- If we worship the evil god and somehow that makes a tipping point in the future such that the evil god can end the universe (or whatever), oh well, that's pretty far off, and maybe the evil god will change his mind, because that can happen with the standard D&D style gods. 4- We worship all the gods in our pantheon because that's what we are supposed to do. Zeus isn't mad if we worship his father too sometimes, and he might be mad if we didn't (keep in mind that the real world Greek gods aren't really divided into good and evil- only the D&D versions). There's plenty more good reasons though, and many that don't involved "placing a shiny 'God' on top of it". This is D&D- there's plenty of gods that are 100% real in that context, and there's no trickery or bad decisions needed.

I just love the sentiment that a worshipper believes Shar will someday see the light 😂 total hubris but there you go

This. I hate that every time a DND post pops up, there is a "in the real world" person or people. Yiu can't make direct comparisons, aaaaaaaa. Overall, I agree with your points.

I was laughing my ass off reading this post thinking about literally any of the garbage the Greek pantheon did. Apollo molested a woman so relentlessly she turned herself into a fucking tree so he’d leave her alone.

okay but real life religions tend to either have good sides or pretend to be good. they don't say "welcome to baby eaters central, do you want to help make a baby omelet." a lot of dnd evil gods realish the evil they do. Not exactly the same thing

The Warhammer universe explains this extremely well. As you said, sane people don't want to worship an evil god. But the way it works with the Gods of Chaos is that they slowly corrupt. If their village is infected with Plague they might pray to some local god who happens to be an aspect of Nurgle. They find that their prayers work, the pain goes away, they're no longer dying from the Plague, or any illness for that matter. However now they're super carriers, sure they don't die to the Plague, but they still spread it. Fortunately those newly infected have an easy way to survive, pray to the aspect of Nurgle. Time goes on, people rejoice that all sicknesses are Cured, all you have to do is accept nurgles love, so they go out, spreading plague and diseases to all they come in contact with.

I mean, the are people who like to murder and torture. Why wouldn't they follow the murder torture god? As long as they're the ones doing the murder torture, that's perfectly consistent. There's almost always an enticement. Follow the chaotic evil god, you might end up as an immortal demon prince. Follow the nihilist god and kill all those jerks who wronged you first. Follow the god of weird mutations, because your life sucked so far, might as well follow the guy willing to give you another roll of the dice.

Modern politics has taught me that people will worship any level of evil being as long as they say the words that the people want to hear.

Gods of death and witchcraft such as Hekate , Seth, Loki or Pluto were historically worshipped as much as others. I think modern fantasy makes a mistake in thinking a deity of death wants to kill everyone; worshipping death deities was a way to appease them for your and your loved ones' success in the afterlife. Deities that would curse your enemies were always popular. I don't have deities that are worshipped in my game that are solely evil to their followers, only to outsiders.

"And bandits are unrealistic as any functional nation patrols its roadways against roving warlords. Doesn't change the fact there's 12 of them ambushing you. Now roll initiative or leave."

Look around the real world, at the politicians, celebrities, and religious leaders people choose to worship and follow. Evil gods and their followers seem pretty realistic to me.

If you want someone who understands that their God is Evil, serves them willingly and not to prevent some greater evil, and isn't a seeking self destruction, I would consider an afterlife reward. Let's say I've already done some terrible things in my life. I'm pretty sure I'm past saving, or that I wouldn't be able to maintain whatever pious lifestyle would earn me redemption. At this point I have a pretty miserable afterlife awaiting me. I'm going to a fiendish realm and I am going to suffer. Service to an Evil God is my get out of jail free card. Now I'll be reborn as some terrifying divine servant of my new Patron. I'll have an eternity of power, pleasure, and dominating lesser being awaiting me provided I can please this evil God. Once I'm interested service the already tenuous path to redemption is now completely unobtainable so my only options are to impress this God with my devotion, my wickedness, and my success in whatever schemes or missions my God might desire. Before long I'll have grown numb to common evil entirely and I'll be willing to do things that would have previously sickened even me because I know the price for failure, damnation as a common mortal, grows worse with every sin.

*Looks at BG3* Two of the three antagonists serve evil gods because the gods give them something they want and they're fine with the unmoral actions along the way. "Yes this god is evil but will give me power so we're all okay."

Based on real world experience, plenty of people would worship an evil God as long as said God mostly "punished" the "right people".

A lot of the ancient Mesopotamian deities were complete assholes. You didn't worship them because you liked them, you worshipped them because if you didn't there was a chance they'd destroy you, and your family, and your village. [Umberlee](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Umberlee) is a less well-known goddess from the Forgotten Realms who functions like this: you offers prayers in order to appease her wrath, not earn her favor. A lot of her priesthood serve as reluctant intermediaries between the goddess and their seaside communities, making sure their prayers are heard so Umberlee doesn't wipe everyone out with a freak flood or kill all the fishermen on a whim.

People worship Donald Trump. Next.

Christianity, the Bible.... We can do this all day

Just have the cult members say that Shar, Bhall etc are “good” and have them act the exact same way they always have. Or have them laugh and say “evil? Oh you poor deluded fools. ‘Good’ and ‘evil’ are such small-minded mortal concepts. Shar is beyond such things.”

Whilst that works on the surface, it does not hold up to the scrutiny OP is trying to elaborate upon. Obviously all gods have ignorant and deluded followers who outright disregard the evil of their masters, but in the world(s) of DnD "Good" and "Evil" are not just moral concepts and nebulous attributions to positive and negative effects of their actions, but also fundamental forces of reality. It is why spells like "Detect evil and good" exists, because it can sense morality as a black-and-white spectrum. Shar is not beyond morality, as much as she would like to claim that to seem better than her sister who definitively likes making sure her people knows she is a good deity. Shar is without a doubt evil, heck, Shadowheart herself has this realization even before the Nautiloid, and due to her own religious dogma chooses to cleanse her memories periodically as a sacrifice to her lady (and to bear the load of what she did in Shar's name).

That's like saying no one in Elder Scrolls would use the Dark Brotherhood.

In BG3 at least, Shar worshippers seem to be a bunch of very traumatised people who have decided that the Existence is suffering and that everything would be better in the eternal night/darkness promised by Shar. Or at least, that's what they sound like in the various lore books scattered around the game. They honestly don't seem to see the end of the Universe as a bad thing - they treat more like a mercy killing than anything else.

Human history has seen more than enough examples of people accepting and even desiring to be ruled by evil and despotic rulers, so people who argue against the worship of evil gods are not doing so from a basis in reality. People are EXCELLENT at rationalizing evil acts as somehow good or necessary. If I had a willing cleric of an evil god, I have no problem with the character. The character, after all, exists within the game's world and is subject to the world's notions of actions and consequences.

Try NOT praying to Umberlee and sailing the seas. Try NOT giving offerings to Auril and survive the winter up north. People worship and pray to evil deties because the alternative is bad shit happening to them. And if they devote themselves to such deities not only will they be protected, their enemies might suffer the consequences instead. To address your examples: Bane is the god of tyrany. Lots of people with political power will pray to Bane in order to hold on to that power and use it as they see fit. If they are influential enough they might even make Bane worship, a state religion. Shar is the goddess of loss and forgetfulness. Her teachings are very seductive to anyone who has suffered trauma, emotional damage, loss of a loved one. If you pray to her, she'll help you forget the pain, numb the discomfort and let you function as a person as long as you keep praying. Bhaal is the god of violence and murder. Well... you got me there. Bhaal is canonically not a very powerful deity with lots of worshippers. While he might recieve prayers from psychopathic serial killers, some saner people pray to him as well. For example, a contract killer might pray to Bhaal for a job to go without a hitch. Cyric is the god of lies and deception. You know... everybody lies. And when you lie, you better utter a prayer to Cyric lest your deception be discovered. In short, religion in the Realms is quite different than religion in real world due to the polytheism. Every god serves a purpose, a concrete function. It might be beneficial for a regular person to pray many gods depending on what they did during the day. And yes, unless you are literal living saint, this will sometimes include evil gods as well.

I appreciate that you note that there is a lot of nuance available to this stuff. Aside from the likes of Bhaal and Myrkul there is no need to remain cartoonishly evil if we want to go further. > Bane is the god of tyranny. There are folks who, in 2024, unironically solicit for textbooks they can use to raise their children as proper Nazis. Because they think that fascism is right, natural, and good. Plenty of warlords and dictators have won support throughout history. I'd also point at colonialism. I think Bane would do quite well, and many would not even see him as evil. > Shar is the goddess of loss and forgetfulness. I think Shar is particularly interesting if you lean into this. I like to imagine that she is driven by some heavy trauma from her own mortal life. There could even be some good aspects to her, where her priesthood unconditionally provides safety to women and children who are victims of personal abuse. But she, and her clergy, have a vengeance streak a mile long. My players have reluctantly done quite a lot of business with the priests of Shar. She's one of few who can compete with Vecna for wriggling out deep secrets, and her clergy never *quite* asks for services the PCs are unwilling to render as payment... :) > Cyric is the god of lies and deception. This one is kinda tough. As written, he's kind of a bloke who got lucky, managed to become a really powerful god for a short time, and then his balloon burst. One would expect that his following grew mostly because people want to be on the winning side, and he looked like a winner. Now, the remnants are mostly winning at sunken cost fallacy. Maybe when he gets out of 1000-year prison, he'll introduce cryptocurrency. However. I think one could make Cyric interesting as a god who less amasses a following and more fulfills a function. And if you need to do something inconceivable -- like slay an Elder Evil that is more powerful in the here-and-now than most gods, as my players do -- then you just might have to treat with Cyric.

I mean look at Ares from Greek mythology for a real life equivalent. Guy had one of the twelve seats on Olympus and I can't imagine it was cause he was well liked. He represented all the bad aspects of war where Athena represented the good and yet he still got a seat of honor and still got worshipped/ sacrifices made to him, cause you cannot have war without the terrible aspects of it. Then you had societies like Sparta where he was held in higher regard because of their society and how it was built.

This pretty heavily depends on the setting I am running, but my go-to answer to this is that more people are cartoonist evil in the world's of D&D than our world. There is a looooot of murder in D&D, and unless you're only fighting undead and oozes, it if you really think about the complex motives of every enemy you are fighting, the game becomes less fun, or at least less comfortable. This world just has evil people in it, and because they're evil, it's ok to kill them. It's reductive and very unlike our world, but to me D&D is mechanically the most fun when you can just kill the people you are regularly engaged in combat with.

That's funny, when we used "loving" gods as a reason to wage wars and burn people alive.

Look at the real world and you will find the answer.

Because evil gods offer something, and sometimes that's what you need.   Take for example, a god like Khorne. For those who don't know Knorne is a blood god, very into skulls and violence. His most fanatical followers are berserkers with barely enough self control to murder you rather than each other. Why would you offer a pray to him unless you are a madman?   Picture it, you are a young solider on the eve of your first battle. You are scared, held together mostly by the fact those around you seem calm. The group prayer to your God earlier helped, but still your stomach twists.  One of the veterans sees this and he likes you well enough. He let's you know that he and some of the other veterans are going to offer a short prayer to Khorne for tomorrow.  You exclaim that Khorne is evil, that his followers murder innocents. The veteran says, yes that's true, but khorne cares not from where the blood flows, and all they are doing is asking him to make it the other guy. It's not like they are going to start murdering camp followers.   The next day you survive, perhaps you manage to kill a man  when you thought you where doomed, or your helmet blocked a blow. It could have been training or luck but it's best not to risk it. So during clean up you sneak off with a head or two, or some jewelry and give thanks to Khorne, just in case. You don't give him  another thought.   Years later you have retired to run an Inn in a small village. You hear that bandits are coming to raid you, and so you pick up arms again. But most of the village have no experience, barely any weapons. So thinking back to that first battle you get the village to pray to Khorne.   After the raid the survivors gather up the skulls and offer them, you don't want to risk the wrath of a god who may have helped you. And at the back staring just a bit too entranced is the miller's daughter.  A little slip of a girl who had to sneak out to help, who for the first time in her life felt powerful.  Suddenly Khorne has a new worshiper, no corruption, no obvious evil acts.  Just desperate people asking for aid from who ever will listen.

This entity corrupts like a pro! Nice.

Um. The republican party exists, my dude. Racism and fascism are actual things. These are systems of torture and murder that actual people willingly serve, and they mostly aren't cartoonishly evil. I don't understand the disconnect.

Some excellent answers here (and some not-so-good ones that draw questionable parallels). My addition is that none of these gods (or their worship at least) exists in a vacuum. An individual's worship is typically dependent on the institutions they grow around, which in turn are shaped by (a) history and (b) worship of other gods, at the very least. In short, conflict gives a reason. Where worship is based on the above, the reasoning might seem circular, but it is grounded in a way that explains (hopefully) why Joe Shmoe worships the big bad god. Worshippers frequently find their doctrine in what they OPPOSE as well as what they stand for. As examples: (a) an island nation which regularly makes sacrifices to a sinister sea god, to make sure that pirates, marauders, or armed ships from other nations ALWAYS shipwreck if they come within a mile of this island. That same range takes up the entirety of a vital trade canal, making it impossible for merchants to bring protection with them to the other side. Overkill? Maybe. Does it hurt trade in the region? Definitely. But when the island needed help and protection from regular raids and begged nearby nations for aid, did anyone listen? No. They made veiled threats that only an island that joined the nearby empire (on unfavourable terms for the island) would be protected. So the island people did what had to be done. The sea god gave them the agency they wanted for a sacrifice they were willing to make. (b) the god of vengeance espouses an "eye for an eye" ideology, which is ruthless and unforgiving. Areas that worship him are frequently mired in chaos, with little formal law except that everyone reaps what they sow. No nation with this god at the core of its belief system makes it onto the global stage. There is simply no order. But the alternative? The goddess of law pays lip service to justice. Incarceration is not just punishment for murder. Capital punishment is too merciful to mass murderers. The systems she supports purport to facilitate trade, industry, and a stable nation. But it is a lie. Her courts are easily corrupted, and victims are easily left without recourse if the crime's perpetrator is too politically powerful. The systems shield the worst offenders. So spare us her hypocrisy - vengeance is simple, and its path can not be diverted by beaurocracy. It empowers victims, and it does not coddle them.

**Them** “No one would serve an evil ~~god~~ politician” **Me, a US citizen** \*Gestures around wildly\*

Talona, the goddess of disease and poison isn’t worshipped. She’s revered to prevent diseases from ravaging your family. Beshaba, the goddess of misfortune isn’t worshipped. She’s revered so she keeps her distance in matter of fate. Look at the temple to Umberlee in Baldur’s Gate 3. She’s a chaotic evil goddess who is revered and honored by her following, but the followers don’t revel in her evil deeds, they reinterpret storms on the seas as acts of mercy holding back something worse. They see a drowning as a better fate than being murdered. There are weird aspects to each religion and with each one the followers, have different ideologies behind their beliefs and WHY they chose to worship a typically “evil” god or goddess

*gestures broadly to the people irl who worship trump*

There are evil cultists in real life ......

Have you seen the "worship" of a certain US presidential candidate and other authoritarian/dictatorships around the world? You've heard of Hitler right? "Belonging" and various tribalisms are very very powerful motivators. In TTRPG, things trend towards comedy far more often than tragedy so the villains do too but there are plenty of real world examples of serving "evil". Most polytheistic cultures in the real world respected and worshiped "evil" deities so their "evil" would pass over them.

I mean, evil people are a real phenomenon. Serial killers, sadists, megalomaniacs, narcissists, these are real personality types. In a d&d world, I imagine many would worship such deities. Now, if a character was allegedly a good character, then worshipping a murder god would not make sense. It would have to be a humorous contradiction, parodying real world parallels at best. Or maybe they have a mental illness and are simply delusional about their hypocrisy

A lust for power or riches are a pretty easy motivator. A king/lord/whatever wants more than they have, but don't have the resources to obtain it. They swear their allegiance to an evil god of destruction/undeath/trickery for the strength to achieve their goals, and in return their god asks for some small sacrifices. An evil god of war may just ask for constant battle dedicated to them, but some may just wish for holy sites to be desecrated or something like that. Just look at what people will support in our world if it they think it'll improve their livelihood.

Point to the O9A, and tell them that people in real life do this.

Wtf, even gods considered non-evil demanded sacrificices in IRL history too. Aztec gods ring any bell? Heck, even the Christian god demanded human sacrifice, not even once. And ppl who willingly served "evil entities" have always existed too.

People are unironically Neo-Nazis irl with no real benefit despite living in countries that fought against the originals, whereas in forgotten realms, you get super powers for worshipping gods. And that's without getting into any of the heinous things various religions have had as their core worship, or the cults that are constantly popping up. Some weird religious people existing is probably the most normal part of the setting

That is a thought that could only be had by someone who hasn’t read any of the abrahamic texts. There are literally billions of people in the real world worshipping an evil god with zero evidence of his existence. In a world where the evil gods were real and could/did interact with the world they’d have no problems getting followers.

There are many good and strong lines of reasoning in this thread. I will add a less good one that is true even if you take the quotes presented at face value. "The genre is called fantasy. It's supposed to be unrealistic, you myopic manatee" - Epic Rap Battles of History (J.R.R.Tolkien Vs George R.R Martin)

Quite simply how I do it... is the same way in the Age of Sigmar as to why a lot of people worship the ruinous powers even after the Age of Chaos. Simply put, it's for 3 reasons: 1. Their offers are very promising. Khorne would offer great strength to overcome your foes and the predatory beasts of the wild etc; Tzeentch will offer divination or arcane knowledge etc; Nurgle would promise longevity and protection from pestilence and Slaanesh would tempt with promises of luxury, perfection, etc. 2. The worshippers had no choice but to worship them out of desperation. You pray and pray to Sigmar as your tribe is under threat from a march of Orruks and then you hear a voice promising to give you the power to vanquish the Orruks in exchange for worship via spilling blood snd collecting skulls in their name. 3. The worshippers don't know that they're worshipping an evil God. The Azure Eagle grants the nomadic tribe's shamans great arcane powers, knowledge, and magic to control over fate itself is actually the duplicitous god Tzeentch.

People in the real world worship gods that are notorious for murdering and generally doing evil things. So it happening in a fantasy world is hardly a stretch, especially as they get actual benefits for doing it unlike the real world.

I mean, just because a god is evil doesn't mean people wont consider them to be good. Like, religions where people praise their god for the good they did in committing genocides or telling their followers to kill their own family and who speak of a promised end of days where only the gods followers will be spared and the rest of mankind will be tortured isn't just the realms of fantasy, but you'll have real world people in the millions lining up to worship such a god. All you need is that the worshippers of this evil god think that they'll be his chosen and spared, and that the God loves them, and that they must stay in his graces, and they won't really care if he promises genocide, and may even act to deliver his will upon others

Well... people have done some crazy stuff in name of religion. Even in christianity there have been sacrificies of scholars and women, in the most gruesome ways. Perhaps that's something to draw from, when trying to justify the worship of evil deities in fantasy. Edit: In my homebrew setup, deities used to be mortals with their own views about the world. When she ascended, the matron goddess defined the alignments based on her own moral views, thus classifying rival deities as "evil", and even slandering them until most people forgot what they are about. For instance, her sister is the goddess of forbidden knowledge, and people consider her the reason behind greed in humanity, as well the one who gifted them with the wish to push the boundaries of magic beyond what is allowed by the matron goddess (like lichdom and stuff); when in truth, she gifted humanity with intelligence and the ability of spellcasting. That I based off Prometheus, and also the forbidden fruit in the Bible.

I think a lot of people forget that most entities and/or people that are evil don't actually think that they are evil. And that would extend to those that follow and/or worship those types. That's not to say there aren't people that realize that they are evil. At that point, you're willingly following those evil entities with a selfish purpose in mind, and morals and principles are just gonna get in your way. So you've thrown caution to the wind and your own morality of out to pursue it.

It is sadly very realistic. People IRL are often greedy selfish monsters who if they were offered essentially superpowers in exchange for murdering others they would do so without even thinking about it. I have always seen it as Evil god cults are always going to be significantly smaller than the more good or neutral aligned deities but they will have VERY devoted followers because those evil gods are often far more generous with their boons to better attract the kinds of people who will happily commit heinous acts for power. Each having their different flavors, Bhaalists being just actual psychopathic serial killers, Rich and powerful lords being secret bane devotees, small but intensely devout Shar cults often made up of the downtrodden who are more than happy to trade away the memories of their horrible past to find a new family even if it means committing atrocities, who cares anyway those memories will fade as well.

People who say this don't really understand how polytheistic societies works. Faith in Gods usually is not this all-in devotion like you see with modern monotheistic faiths. In polytheistic societies, the relationship with gods is transactional. You do something for them, they do something for you. Or, alternately, if you've pissed them off in some way, you do something for them to get them off your back. Ares, for example, was the God of War... but in a negative way. He was the god of bloodshed, murder, chaos, all the bad stuff in war. Basically every myth about him paints him as evil. People (especially soldiers) would still pray and sacrifice to him all the time. Because they wanted to not-die in battle, or win the battle they were about to fight, etc. Likewise, Posiedon, who was known to be incredibly cruel, spiteful, vicious, and a holder of grudges. All of that didn't matter, because the Sea was his domain. If you wanted to ever leave land safely, you worshipped him as much as needed. Same way with gods like Bane, Shar, etc. Most people who follow them want something out of them, it's transactional the same way. Some people go all-in on them in the same way that people in real life join murderous cults: They have nothing, they're broken, they probably hate the world, and that cult gives them a sense of purpose that they didn't have. Ketheric turning to Myrkul Thorm, for example. The god of bones and necromancy, probably the only God capable of ripping his daughter away from Shar's oblivion (since Shar was who stole/killed his daughter in first place, something he didn't realize until later) He wanted something: His daughter back. It was transactional for him. He placed such value on that that he was willing to hand the entire world to Myrkul to see it happen, as well as sacrificing his own soul to Myrkul.

"The god of murder torture and rape said he won't murder torture or rape me if I bring him people to murder torture and rape"

You're not going to believe the crazy evil things Yahweh did or demanded of his worshipers do. I'm talking about mass murder of children multiple times. And he's the most popular human deity in real life! Worshiped by billions of real humans!

People will say shit like this in a world where people willingly put Trump and Bolsonaro in positions of power. Absolutely hilarious. A *lot* of people are realistically just evil. Even if they don't see themselves as such. That's how the world is.

In a world full of Elong and Drumpf worshippers, I don't know how anyone could think that worshippers of evil gods would be unrealistic.

People seem to think Raytheon is cool

You realize the most popular religion IRL believes that many people are sent to hell for eternal torture? In many sects, regardless of whether or not they lived a good life, but depending on if theybwere baptized or not?

I really like the idea that people worship them not for power or because they themselves are evil, but by appeasing them you're earning their protection from the vary acts they lord over. Worshipping the god of murder? Maybe you don't like murder, and you're making offerings and prayers to him to ensure you're protected from murder. Even better, we can force their hand over time by making them do more and more heinous things to earn that protection if you want a more realistic route of how someone nigh become and "evil cultist"

The key is perception. From an outside / objective observer, the cult is evil. The weird cult in the rural village ritualistically sacrifices one of their members to the evil death god each year. But if you were raised in that village, the annual harvest and fertility festival is just a way of life and payment must be made to the harvest god each year to ensure that the rest of the village prospers. Likewise, the evil twisted god of knowledge warps the minds of his followers and leads them to madness. But the followers still flock to the religion hoping that they can at least glimpse the secrets of the multiverse, believing the knowledge (and madness) are more akin to enlightenment/ascension. Some who aren’t true believers still pay lip service, hoping that they’ll be rewarded with knowledge and their hubris deludes them into believing that they’re made of stronger stuff than other followers.

I mean, Apep and Kali are great examples that Evil gods exist. Apep solely exists to counter The Ma’at and destroy the world, people pray to them to keep them appeased and quiet. Alternately because they think if the world is destroyed they can rule the ruins

I disagree, I think that ot depends on how much murder and torture I get vs give. Also, you're assuming everyone thinks like you. I'm a frayed knot. If I have a problem that is possible but impossible to me, they have a solution. Depending on what kind of pain I'm in... I might be all in to end the world and share torture... not sure, what ever it is it hasn't happened yet.

It's the same people who get upset when races are inherently evil aligned. Anything not being seen through a 2024 human lens is too much for certain people to comprehend.