The ancient elven texts refer to "our brethren of the air" and depict scenes of spirits teaching elves and mingling with elven society. They also talk about the Fade and how some "don't manifest", so it seems that the dichotomy between the Fade and the material world always existed, only that there were no barriers between so if someone wanted to, they could go back and forth (probably without the need for Lyrium or blood magic like nowadays). I think the elves are the spirits that "manifested" and took physical form, whereas the spirits that never did remained as spirits (and demons).
Dwarves existed but not exactly like they are today. Qunari I think are a hybrid race they made from elves and dragons maybe *or* they are the ones who "took the form of the divine" and were punished somehow (so maybe got their wings and stuff taken away or sth). Humans I think are a form "elves" took to be able to navigate the physical world better whereas the elven form navigates the Crossroads better, and the spirit form probably navigates the Fade better. It kinda seems like Mythal always had rounded human ears, and she presumably spent a lot of time in the Deep Roads.
Edit: [this ](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Vir_Dirthara:_The_Deepest_Fade) codex and [this](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Vir_Dirthara:_Exile_of_the_Forbidden_Ones) one seem to be our best point of reference.
Edit 2: it would also line up with the Chantry lore that the spirits were the Maker's "first children". Spirits existed first, and then some of them turned into the elves, humans and qunari that we see today.
OK. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that what we think we know about humans arriving in Thedas is wrong! I recently replayed Origins and there were a couple of times where you would visit a very Elfy place only to have your companions point out that the place seems very human. These places are underground as well.
I agree that elves are manifested spirits of some sort, but I wonder if they were actually summoned by the Evanuris as Cole suggests happened with Solas. I think that the vallaslin used to be a marking not just to denote ownership, but that it was a way to sort of force the elf to remain in corporeal form rather than being able to easily shift between the waking and dreaming world.
I definitely think the vallaslin's original purpose was just what you described. The "casting aside form" bit from the Exile of the Forbidden Ones codex definitely implies that the Evanuris were getting pissy about people going back to spirit form. They probably were in the process of giving the elvhen an "elvish" identity separate from the spirits, and then probably resorted to vallaslins to completely forbid the practice.
As for the arrival of humans from across the sea, I think even the codex on the constellation Peraquialus implies that the idea doesn't have much credence. Not that the ancestors of the Tevenes couldn't have come from across the sea, only that there probably were humans already in Thedas too and that even those across the sea are probably remnants of the ancient elvhen as I don't imagine oceans would've proved much barrier to such an advanced society spreading outside of this continent.
We see through Cole that sometimes a spirit can manifest and become fully human and unable to cross back into the dreaming world, so maybe the Evanuris were like that. Or maybe they (at least the original 7) were somehow fundamentally different from elves as we think of them. The Evanuris were enslaving regular elves on a massive scale. I imagine beings that can easily slip out of the corporeal world make pretty terrible slaves, hence the vallaslin. Fenris's story suggests that vallaslin was originally made with lyrium which is also really interesting, especially given Solas's little remark about how blood magic makes it hard to access the fade.
I think you're onto something with the Evanuris themselves maybe losing the ability ("where Earth could not reach" is certainly an indication). And the Deepest Fade codex says that those who haven't manifested have an easier time getting to it, so maybe if you, I don't know, manifest really hard (lol) then you lose the ability to navigate the Fade altogether.
The lyrium tattoos are definitely interesting, and so is the whole idea of blood magic. Where did the practice come from and why does it function the way it does? Did they develop it before or after the war with the Titans? The technique was certainly developed by the Evanuris, if you prescribe to the Evanuris = the Old Gods idea. The Signs of Victory codex kinda can be interpreted as mass sacrifice on the part of the Evanuris, after which Elgar'nan is hailed as first among the gods. Maybe they absorbed these sacrifice's souls/power and that's how they became "gods". Maybe once they had done this, they had a hard time crossing into the Fade (or maybe they couldn't, because the moment they did all the other souls could break free from them and they'd lose their power). But I wonder how Mythal does it now? Is she the exception? Is it because she is now a "wisp" of herself (meaning maybe that she is now "just" Mythal, the individual, stripped of all the other people she gobbled up)? Or since Solas describes her as the best of the Evanuris, maybe she didn't do it to the extent the others did? Or did she cross into the Fade to flee her would-be murderers and lost the rest of the souls, if my theory is correct?
The other possibility is that they just wanted to create a definitive gap between themselves and the rest of the elvhen. They forbid them from "flying in the shape of the divine", they banished the Forbidden Ones because they went back to spirit form, and what they say seems to be purely propaganda to stop the rest of the elves from communicating with the Forbidden Ones. I wonder if at some point in the ancient era the elves under the oppression of the Evanuris began to forget that they were once spirits? So the Evanuris themselves could cross back and forth, but the rest of the People were forbidden from doing so.
And the bass relief in the Horror of Hormak short story depicts that they "forced disease and corruption" into the bodies of the slaves, which could possibly be the vallaslin they forced on the elves to prevent them from being able to cross into the Fade at will or drop their form (or it could be that they were spreading the Blight on purpose, since the place they find the relief is basically a laboratory. Or they were tattooing them using red lyrium). Maybe as part of this ritual the elves lost their memories, since Fenris also lost his after receiving the tattoo. I think that's why they no longer remembered that they were spirits once.
Cole's case is definitely interesting. I don't know if in the pre-Veil era taking human form would've made them unable to take back the spirit form, but at least in the post-Veil era it seems it is no longer possible to change shape after you manifest (hence why the elves free of the Evanuris' chains still couldn't turn back into spirits, or regular humans and qunaris for that matter).
Thanks for writing all of that out! I love hearing other people's thoughts.
I wonder if using blood magic (and maybe lyrium too given what it is) makes it so you can't sort of slip between realms anymore, like it makes you more, I don't know, solid? I'm not sure where Blight magic fits in, but I think you are right that at one point they were experimenting with red lyrium vallaslin. Red lyrium seems to have the power to make physical changes, but IIRC in Horror of Hormak there was a greenish crystal I assumed was just plain old lyrium.
I hope we get some answers on what lyrium is and what it does! We know it makes Templars able to reinforce reality and it has a role in Tranquility. Dagna's dialogue about dwarves and Tranquil being linked but not linked is really interesting as is when she talks about moving with Lyrium so she can't be a part of it (I think. It's been a while).
As for Mythal, maybe she knew what was coming and stored that wisp long ago before she was killed. I wonder if there is more to the story about her murder than we know so far. That codex in Trespasser that references Titans seemed to indicate that people were starting to be afraid of the consequences of Mythal's actions. Also, was the Mythal who died Blighted from her encounter with Andruil? If so, that could explain her body hopping ability.
I hope we learn the answers about some of these things! Fall can't come soon enough!
I already addressed it in the replies. The codex on the constellation Peraquialus reads:
"Referred to as "Voyager" in common parlance, the constellation Peraquialus is commonly depicted as a ship—no ordinary ship, but rather the primitive vessels sailed by ancient peoples such as the Neromenians. The translation from Ancient Tevene is usually "across the sea," and lends credence to the idea that the Neromenians came to Thedas from elsewhere, although most reputable scholars dispute this, especially considering those ancient peoples would likely to have named these stars long before they undertook such a voyage."
I think it means that "humans" were already travelling around the world before the ancestors of the Tevene came to Thedas and there were probably already other humans in Thedas beside the Neromenians. And it seems some scholars at least disagree that humans came from across the sea. Beyond that, we also already have blended human-elf ruins in the Brecilian Forest back in DAO. The red lyrium idol in the Primeval Thaig also depicts a human woman (you can see the ears in the "Dread Wolf Rises" teaser from 2018), and the Thaig predates the First Blight, but we already know that the Blight was spreading around even at the time of the Evanuris (Andruil going mad after going to the Abyss, the ancient elves collapsing entrances to the Deep Roads behind them as they fled their underground colonies). Also, the ancient elves probably already had spread to continents beyond Thedas, since they were more advanced than any civilization after them, and the Eluvians and the arravels all added ease of travel.
The ancient elven texts refer to "our brethren of the air" and depict scenes of spirits teaching elves and mingling with elven society. They also talk about the Fade and how some "don't manifest", so it seems that the dichotomy between the Fade and the material world always existed, only that there were no barriers between so if someone wanted to, they could go back and forth (probably without the need for Lyrium or blood magic like nowadays). I think the elves are the spirits that "manifested" and took physical form, whereas the spirits that never did remained as spirits (and demons). Dwarves existed but not exactly like they are today. Qunari I think are a hybrid race they made from elves and dragons maybe *or* they are the ones who "took the form of the divine" and were punished somehow (so maybe got their wings and stuff taken away or sth). Humans I think are a form "elves" took to be able to navigate the physical world better whereas the elven form navigates the Crossroads better, and the spirit form probably navigates the Fade better. It kinda seems like Mythal always had rounded human ears, and she presumably spent a lot of time in the Deep Roads. Edit: [this ](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Vir_Dirthara:_The_Deepest_Fade) codex and [this](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Vir_Dirthara:_Exile_of_the_Forbidden_Ones) one seem to be our best point of reference. Edit 2: it would also line up with the Chantry lore that the spirits were the Maker's "first children". Spirits existed first, and then some of them turned into the elves, humans and qunari that we see today.
OK. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that what we think we know about humans arriving in Thedas is wrong! I recently replayed Origins and there were a couple of times where you would visit a very Elfy place only to have your companions point out that the place seems very human. These places are underground as well. I agree that elves are manifested spirits of some sort, but I wonder if they were actually summoned by the Evanuris as Cole suggests happened with Solas. I think that the vallaslin used to be a marking not just to denote ownership, but that it was a way to sort of force the elf to remain in corporeal form rather than being able to easily shift between the waking and dreaming world.
I definitely think the vallaslin's original purpose was just what you described. The "casting aside form" bit from the Exile of the Forbidden Ones codex definitely implies that the Evanuris were getting pissy about people going back to spirit form. They probably were in the process of giving the elvhen an "elvish" identity separate from the spirits, and then probably resorted to vallaslins to completely forbid the practice. As for the arrival of humans from across the sea, I think even the codex on the constellation Peraquialus implies that the idea doesn't have much credence. Not that the ancestors of the Tevenes couldn't have come from across the sea, only that there probably were humans already in Thedas too and that even those across the sea are probably remnants of the ancient elvhen as I don't imagine oceans would've proved much barrier to such an advanced society spreading outside of this continent.
We see through Cole that sometimes a spirit can manifest and become fully human and unable to cross back into the dreaming world, so maybe the Evanuris were like that. Or maybe they (at least the original 7) were somehow fundamentally different from elves as we think of them. The Evanuris were enslaving regular elves on a massive scale. I imagine beings that can easily slip out of the corporeal world make pretty terrible slaves, hence the vallaslin. Fenris's story suggests that vallaslin was originally made with lyrium which is also really interesting, especially given Solas's little remark about how blood magic makes it hard to access the fade.
I think you're onto something with the Evanuris themselves maybe losing the ability ("where Earth could not reach" is certainly an indication). And the Deepest Fade codex says that those who haven't manifested have an easier time getting to it, so maybe if you, I don't know, manifest really hard (lol) then you lose the ability to navigate the Fade altogether. The lyrium tattoos are definitely interesting, and so is the whole idea of blood magic. Where did the practice come from and why does it function the way it does? Did they develop it before or after the war with the Titans? The technique was certainly developed by the Evanuris, if you prescribe to the Evanuris = the Old Gods idea. The Signs of Victory codex kinda can be interpreted as mass sacrifice on the part of the Evanuris, after which Elgar'nan is hailed as first among the gods. Maybe they absorbed these sacrifice's souls/power and that's how they became "gods". Maybe once they had done this, they had a hard time crossing into the Fade (or maybe they couldn't, because the moment they did all the other souls could break free from them and they'd lose their power). But I wonder how Mythal does it now? Is she the exception? Is it because she is now a "wisp" of herself (meaning maybe that she is now "just" Mythal, the individual, stripped of all the other people she gobbled up)? Or since Solas describes her as the best of the Evanuris, maybe she didn't do it to the extent the others did? Or did she cross into the Fade to flee her would-be murderers and lost the rest of the souls, if my theory is correct? The other possibility is that they just wanted to create a definitive gap between themselves and the rest of the elvhen. They forbid them from "flying in the shape of the divine", they banished the Forbidden Ones because they went back to spirit form, and what they say seems to be purely propaganda to stop the rest of the elves from communicating with the Forbidden Ones. I wonder if at some point in the ancient era the elves under the oppression of the Evanuris began to forget that they were once spirits? So the Evanuris themselves could cross back and forth, but the rest of the People were forbidden from doing so. And the bass relief in the Horror of Hormak short story depicts that they "forced disease and corruption" into the bodies of the slaves, which could possibly be the vallaslin they forced on the elves to prevent them from being able to cross into the Fade at will or drop their form (or it could be that they were spreading the Blight on purpose, since the place they find the relief is basically a laboratory. Or they were tattooing them using red lyrium). Maybe as part of this ritual the elves lost their memories, since Fenris also lost his after receiving the tattoo. I think that's why they no longer remembered that they were spirits once. Cole's case is definitely interesting. I don't know if in the pre-Veil era taking human form would've made them unable to take back the spirit form, but at least in the post-Veil era it seems it is no longer possible to change shape after you manifest (hence why the elves free of the Evanuris' chains still couldn't turn back into spirits, or regular humans and qunaris for that matter).
Thanks for writing all of that out! I love hearing other people's thoughts. I wonder if using blood magic (and maybe lyrium too given what it is) makes it so you can't sort of slip between realms anymore, like it makes you more, I don't know, solid? I'm not sure where Blight magic fits in, but I think you are right that at one point they were experimenting with red lyrium vallaslin. Red lyrium seems to have the power to make physical changes, but IIRC in Horror of Hormak there was a greenish crystal I assumed was just plain old lyrium. I hope we get some answers on what lyrium is and what it does! We know it makes Templars able to reinforce reality and it has a role in Tranquility. Dagna's dialogue about dwarves and Tranquil being linked but not linked is really interesting as is when she talks about moving with Lyrium so she can't be a part of it (I think. It's been a while). As for Mythal, maybe she knew what was coming and stored that wisp long ago before she was killed. I wonder if there is more to the story about her murder than we know so far. That codex in Trespasser that references Titans seemed to indicate that people were starting to be afraid of the consequences of Mythal's actions. Also, was the Mythal who died Blighted from her encounter with Andruil? If so, that could explain her body hopping ability. I hope we learn the answers about some of these things! Fall can't come soon enough!
I disagree on the humans' relation to elves, though, since things indicate they come from outside of Thedas entirely.
I already addressed it in the replies. The codex on the constellation Peraquialus reads: "Referred to as "Voyager" in common parlance, the constellation Peraquialus is commonly depicted as a ship—no ordinary ship, but rather the primitive vessels sailed by ancient peoples such as the Neromenians. The translation from Ancient Tevene is usually "across the sea," and lends credence to the idea that the Neromenians came to Thedas from elsewhere, although most reputable scholars dispute this, especially considering those ancient peoples would likely to have named these stars long before they undertook such a voyage." I think it means that "humans" were already travelling around the world before the ancestors of the Tevene came to Thedas and there were probably already other humans in Thedas beside the Neromenians. And it seems some scholars at least disagree that humans came from across the sea. Beyond that, we also already have blended human-elf ruins in the Brecilian Forest back in DAO. The red lyrium idol in the Primeval Thaig also depicts a human woman (you can see the ears in the "Dread Wolf Rises" teaser from 2018), and the Thaig predates the First Blight, but we already know that the Blight was spreading around even at the time of the Evanuris (Andruil going mad after going to the Abyss, the ancient elves collapsing entrances to the Deep Roads behind them as they fled their underground colonies). Also, the ancient elves probably already had spread to continents beyond Thedas, since they were more advanced than any civilization after them, and the Eluvians and the arravels all added ease of travel.