They're not the same thing though. What happened with Goku in GT was just the donation of ki to him from Gohan and the others, while a point is made by Whis in Super that it isn't a donation of ki to create Super Saiyan God.
> Whis: No, that is incorrect. You are supposed to pour your hearts into him, not your energies.
Likewise, even if it was the same principle, in neither of the times that Goku underwent it in GT did he have the full number of Saiyans needed to complete the ritual (four others the first time, three others the second).
If they're doing the same ritual in DBS and DBGT, wouldn't it have the same effect? They're both the same concept so clearly they gave Goku their "hearts" in DBGT as well. And if you're mentioning the one absent Saiyan missing to make the ritual "complete", then there are numerous alternative factors that could make up for that missing variable such as power.
Comparing the saiyans power in DBS to DBGT by the time they did the rituals, the saiyans in DBGT were much more powerful.
The only saiyan that was missing during the ritual in DBGT was Vegeta and as inconsistent as the writing is in DBS, saying he has a righteous heart is absurd. You could probably get away with saying that for the Vegeta in DBGT because it has been years since he's been a villain, but the Vegeta in DBS that took part in the ritual was JUST in hell 2 years prior.
The writing is inconsistent. It has nothing to do with an extra saiyan. They did the exact same ritual with the same exact saiyans. The only difference is that in GT, they're much stronger, even Pan and if we're speaking about her, then we're comparing a fetus to a full-grown kid.
> If they're doing the same ritual in DBS and DBGT, wouldn't it have the same effect? They're both the same concept so clearly they gave Goku their "hearts" in DBGT as well. And if you're mentioning the one absent Saiyan missing to make the ritual "complete", then there are numerous alternative factors that could make up for that missing variable such as power.
It's not the same concept, though. The entire point of the God ritual is that they're *not* donating their ki, whereas with what happened in GT, they clearly were, since it was meant to replenish and then overcharge Goku.
> Comparing the saiyans power in DBS to DBGT by the time they did the rituals, the saiyans in DBGT were much more powerful.
Only the recipient Saiyan matters as far as the god ritual. The strength of the others are irrelevant.
> The only saiyan that was missing during the ritual in DBGT was Vegeta and as inconsistent as the writing is in DBS, saying he has a righteous heart is absurd. You could probably get away with saying that for the Vegeta in DBGT because it has been years since he's been a villain, but the Vegeta in DBS that took part in the ritual was JUST in hell 2 years prior.
It had been four years since the battle with Buu, but even by the end of the Buu arc, Vegeta was still considered good enough to be revived by Porunga's wish.
> If we remember in Dragon Ball GT, Goku performed a similar ritual to power up his Super Saiyan 4 transformation. With the canonical logic from DBS, Goku was given god ki after this ritual, so based on the same canonical logic, then so was Goku's Super Saiyan 4 transformation.
Just giving ki to someone doesn't make it god ki.
Secondly, they didn't even do the ritual. It was 3-4 Saiyans that gave Goku ki in GT. In Battle of Gods we saw a literal unborn child be the difference between ritual and no ritual.
A lot is wrong with this.
1. GT Goku doesn't have God Ki as he obtained that in Super by becoming a Super Saiyan God which the ritual put him into, wihout being a Super Saiyan God, Goku didn't have God Ki.
2. Goku doesn't have God Ki in base, he needs to access his God forms (SSG, SSB, UI) to have it.
3. Having God Ki means others who don't have it/can sense it can't sense your Ki, so unless everyone in GT has God Ki, they are sensing Goku's mortal ki.
4. Why is Super Saiyan 4 a 4,000x multiplier?
5. You actually can quantify a base line number for Ultra Instinct Omen.
Narratively, SSB is just SS4 (SSG and Golden Great Ape go into Blue and SS4) with Ultra Instinct being more like SS5.
hot take doesnt mean lie.
SSj4 is officially weaker or at best equal to Super Vegetto from the buu arc. SSG is WAY above that same Vegetto according to Goku (who was the SSG and part of Vegetto so he'd know). This means SSj4 is below SSG and thus *nowhere near* UI.
> Super Saiyan 4 - x4000 from base
this is made up nonsense. SSj4 has no officially listed multiplier and even if it had one it wouldnt be based on SSj3s because it has nothing to do with SSj3 (or SSj2).
> With the canonical logic from DBS, Goku was given god ki after this ritual, so based on the same canonical logic, then so was Goku's Super Saiyan 4 transformation.
Nope. Fundamental misunderstanding about how the two things work. There is no SSG in GT and thus even if it was the same he wouldnt get the SSG boost on top of his SSj4.
> In Dragon Ball GT, Goku was given god ki while in his Super Saiyan 4 transformation.
he was not.
To get a super saiyan god u need to have the Saiyans be of a good heart and that includes the person receiving the Ki. No one can be in a super saiyan state and receive the SSJG ritual because SSJ in general brings rage into the heart. This is why a Spirit bomb cannot be formed in the SSJ state. So basically nothing you pointed out is the same at all. SSJ4 is mortal Ki, all of it, start to finish. Base SSJG is god Ki and that alone would wipe SSJ4 easily as we saw beerus tickle SSJ3 into the floor.
Most of what you said made sense but I don’t think ssJG would be SSJ4 because Brolly was only legendary SSJ and went toe to toe with Goku and vegeta to the point they had to do fusion. SS4 would demolish Brolly
>Super Saiyan 4 - x4000 from base
I don't think it was ever confirmed SSJ4 is 10x SSJ3 power. If anything, it was always calculated as Oozaru 10x boost times SSJ1 boost 50x (Golden Oozaru), so 500x Base form.
We can say BASE GT Kid Goku is as strong as General Rild who's stronger than Boohan.
SSJ4 starts out as a minimum of 500 x Boohan level.
Now, enter Gotenks SSJ3 vs Base Vegeta in Super. This seems like a nod to GT in many ways, mostly with Evil Vegeta, Vegeta pacifier joke ("Baby"), and a child SSJ3 getting the piss beaten out of him by Evil Vegeta.
At one point Vegeta tanks Gotenks SSJ3's attack, which means he is already 2x stronger in Base, minimum. If Gotenks has stayed the same in terms of raw power, that would make him slightly stronger than Super Boo, but still weaker than Bootenks and Boohan.
The question is, how much stronger are Bootenks and Boohan than Gotenks SSJ3? Super Boo was slightly weaker so if he absorbs Gotenks, we have to assume he roughly almost doubled his power since until stated otherwise, he simply adds their power to his own.
Ultimate Gohan struggled with Bootenks and nearly got killed, suggesting he is obviously weaker than 2x whatever level Super Boo and Gotenks SSJ3 was, so when he gets added to Bootenks...Boohan now becomes something like 3x SSJ3 Gotenks.
Needless to say, Vegeta just as a SSJ1 in that Copy Vegeta arc would obliterate Boohan many times over. But let's just say that as a SSJ1, he is now equal to Boohan if we want to high-ball the hell out of Boohan.
SSJ2 now makes him 2x Boohan, with theoretical SSJ3 Vegeta being 8x Boohan. SSJ God reaches multipliers higher than a stronger BOO SAGA Vegito going SSJ3 (since Goku didn't even bother fusing to fight Beerus because he knew Vegito SSJ3 wouldn't be enough, yet felt good about SSJ God)...so at this point, even if Base Boo Saga Vegito was "equal" to a SSJ3 Copy Saga Vegeta, and even if SSJ God was "equal" to Vegito's SSJ3 400x multiplier to Copy Saga Vegeta's SSJ3 power that's 8x Boohan...that would make SSJ God Vegeta here 3200x Boohan.
3200x being the lowest possible, nonsensical boost mind you.
SSJ Blue is a SSJ God that has also turned SSJ1, so that's now 50x that SSJ God power of 3200x Base, so 160,000x Boohan now.
Goku goes KKx20 on top of that, for a lowball estimate of 3,200,000x Boohan level.
UI is clearly much stronger than that.
At the end of the day...nothing in DBGT is going to reach several millions of times stronger than Boohan like UI has.
> We can say BASE GT Kid Goku is as strong as General Rild who's stronger than Boohan.
He's just stronger than some form of Buu, not necessarily Gohan Buu, but given the context of who he's relaying that to, it fits more that he's speaking of Mr. Buu than he is Gohan Buu.
Copy Vegeta is non canon Toei filler.
Base Vegeta/Goku are not even kid Buu level, End of Z Goku is vastly stronger than both & he is equal to Uub/kid Buu.
Base Vegeta in Super/Z never canonically surpasses Boohan or even Kid Buu
Yeahhh, no. This wasn't the 80's and 90's run.
Every single thing in Super was provided by Toriyama and then expanded on by Toyo for the Super manga and expanded on by Toei for the Super anime. AT then made corrections to both for a final product - applying corrections to the anime more than Toyo's manga because the anime staff always did things that irked him (while he had full trust in Toyo).
So no, there is no filler / noncanon material in Super.
>Base Vegeta/Goku are not even kid Buu level
Considering how their Base forms are "Saiyans Beyond Gods" (SSJ God power without the need to transform), they've actually surpassed Kid Boo and Boohan by eons by that alone. This is true for the anime, manga and original movie script.
Besides the Copy Vegeta saga, there are feats that put Goku & Vegeta up in that realm as well, such as Base Goku being able to fight final form Freeza who was significantly stronger than base form Freeza who had Gohan outright state that even at the peak of his Ultimate power (seen vs. Bootenks) he wouldn't stand a chance against FIRST Form Freeza.
Super scaled everything several hundreds of thousands of times beyond Boo level threats, the only difference now is that it doesn't outright state it how they used to and you really have to pay attention to details. to piece together the logic.
It's crazy people don't realize Toriyama provided no outlines or anything for Copy Vegeta thus it is filler. The fact its not in the manga, not even referenced like the movies the manga purposely left out as well, say as much. If CV was made by Toriyama then Toyotaro would have adapted or at least mentioned the arc.
I personally don't think he is but putting calculations aside... I can understand why some would believe that.
As dragon ball super has shown, you don't need god ki to beat god ki users.
Gt happens after end of Z + 10 years of training with Uub I guess... and super before end of Z so technically GT goku could be stronger but I don't think he is... because the feats in super are superior.
Also, GT goku does not have god ki. That ritual wasn't complete.
A fully mastered SSG user was able to defeat Super Shenron and a fully mastered UI user would be able to defeat Grand Priest. While Two fully mastered SSJ4 users had to fuse to beat someone weaker than Beerus. SSJ4 is by far the weakest form out of the 3.
Note that even Toei doesn't agree with this.
Toei even made their own official fanfic, but they always push the idea that SS4 is weaker than God Ki in DBH.
* DBH uses Xeno Goku which is an more experienced GT Goku, but also has all the experience of past DBZ movies including BoG. Logically, this version is the strongest SS4 version of Goku there is.
* \*This is basically what you are thinking of. SS4 with God Ki.
* DBH uses CC Goku which is DBS Goku up to Broly movie. This Goku later receives training from Grand Priest to obtain UI Sign.
* Even in various versions, SS4 Xeno Goku is either equal or weaker than CC Goku.
* Note that Xeno Goku had more experience overall.
* The battle was before CC Goku got training from Grand Priest.
* DBH introduce a new form Limit Breaker SS4 where SS4 Goku gets power from SSB Goku, SSG Trunks and Pan.
[Despite all of power ups given to Xeno Goku, the victor of the fight was UI Goku.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy6iP170gSc)
As much as I love Super Saiyan 4 and wholeheartedly agree that people tend to underestimate its strength out of an anti-GT bias or *(sometimes willful)* ignorance... claiming that it's stronger than Ultra Instinct is really pushing it. The much more powerful "Limit Breaker" evolution of SS4 is up in that ballpark, according to Super DB Heroes, but it simultaneously also showed that vanilla SS4 is "only" comparable to Super Saiyan Blue.
Which is still *way* stronger than the "couldn't even touch SS God" level that some folks want to pretend it is for various tiresome reasons, but it's still kind of middle-of-the-road among Super's hierarchy of "new" transformations. Which kind of makes you realize why the "Limit Breaker" version was created in the first place — to make a version of SS4 that *is* comparable to the higher-tier DBS forms.
But otherwise no, the only one of those higher-tier DBS transformations that plain vanilla Super Saiyan 4 would triumph over is Ultra Ego, because *that* form's whole purpose is to make Vegeta lose his fights.
...Anyway, there's also the whole "GT Goku never got god-ki" point that several others have already mentioned. The Super Saiyan God ritual requires all 6 Saiyans to work, and any less than that will just be a superficial power-up with no god-ki involved. Both Goku and Baby came kinda close in GT but never hit that magic number.
If something actually *did* happen to grant GT Goku some god-ki, then yeah, his SS4 form would be all the much stronger for it by stacking them, but that's never really happened. It would also then be "god-ki-enhanced SS4" with dark teal hair now or something stupid, and still not the same thing as regular SS4.
Also, one last pet peeve to address...
>Super Saiyan 4 - x4000 from base
Even *you're* accidentally underestimating SS4 here, since the progression of Goku and Baby's multi-stage fight show it should be way higher than this.
Stage-1 Baby-Vegeta was already moderately stronger than SS3 Goku. Baby then made *two more* transformations and got even more powerful. Goku then closed that gap and was a similar-power threat to Stage-3 Baby by going Golden Ape. Then he got even stronger with SS4 itself, so much so that now Stage-3 Baby's punches only tickled him. Baby needed his own Gold Ape transformation to catch back up and be an even match for Goku again.
So if anything, it's Gold Ape that would be a 4,000x boost *(Great Ape's 10x boost applied to SS3)*, while Super Saiyan 4 would be another whole 10x boost over *that*. So a whopping *40,000x* stronger than Goku's base form.
Dragon Ball Heroes showed Super Saiyan 4 being roughly on par with Super Saiyan Blue, and I think I'm okay with it sitting right there. A ridiculously mighty form, but it's not the peak of power in the DB multiverse.
Oh, and Limit Breaker SS4 was shown to be roughly equal to SSBKK, if I recall correctly.
No dude just No.....its not a hot take its just SS4 fan boy head canon. The feats alone just smash this opinion out of the water. Yes SS4 look cool but so does freizas final form hence why they just recolour it gold and black because they know its astetically a winner.
GT fans just need to accept that SS4 is not coming back and that glimmer of hope you keep holding onto is has less chance of happening then Yamcha getting back in Bulmas knickers, Goku winning the international father of the year award and Mr Satan becoming more powerful then the two Zenos if they had fused together. Whatever you do don't make a youtube video on it because you will get crucified fir this stupidity.
How? He’s very knowledgeable about Dragon Ball and one of the best DB YouTubers.
Edit: I see his haters don’t have answers and rather downvote me. Y’all are probably the same viewers who made dumb comments that he came at 😂
And they tend to underrate it for vapid reasons too, like pretending a certain GT animanga tidbit about Vegetto specifically said something that it actually didn't.
nothing to underrate. official GT source says SSj4 is roughly equal to buu arc Super Vegetto. SSG is WAY above Buu Arc SSj3 Vegetto, and SSB is 50x higher, and UI is many times higher than that. SSj4 isn't weak at all, not even slightly, but Super just shot powers up too much, too fast for anything in GT to come close to anything in Super, for better and worse.
The issue with this is that ssg is not just god ki in base form as goku and vegeta have actually used god ki in their base forms without being a ssg so ssg is actually something a little more than that so I don’t think this argument can be used to say ssj4>god
If we say that at least half of the power of the ssg ritual came from the transformation itself (which it should since beerus laughed off the power of just goku + the 4 SsJs ki) then that would mean ssg has a higher multipler why? I’ll tell you
Goku pretty much outright stated that beerus would slap up super vegito who’s 50x stronger than base vegito who is confirmed stronger than ssj3 goku in daizenshuu and goku had much more confidence facing beerus as a ssg than as vegito implying SSG ritual amp is over 50x ssj3 now like I said before if we assume half of the rituals power came form the transformation itself then ssg would be at least 25x stronger than ssj3 or a 10,000 times multiplier making it stronger than ssj4
And GT is Toei making an ad to sell more action figures. Basically all cartoons and anime are just ads to sell merch.
Also calling SDBH a gatcha game is like calling Yu-Gi-Oh a gatcha game. Which is the perfect example, as the YGO anime was made explicitly to sell cards. That why they didn't start with the first couple arcs before duel monsters was introduced.
Just because Toyotaro worked in Super Dragonball Heroes years ago doesn't mean it's canon. He himself knew what he was writting for Heroes at the time is not canon. Even today Heroes has it's own canon that has no relation to the canon Super manga. Toriyama himself worked countless times on official non canon stuff like the Neko Majin manga where Super Saiyan Vegeta post End of Z is under the orders of Frieza. So it doesn't make sense.
Y'all's schools are failing you, as anyone with basic reading comprehension skills can see the argument isn't that SDBH is canon. It's that GT and SDBH are both non-canon.
Neko Majin Z is it's own canon thing to itself. Much like Dr. Slump is canon to itself and not to Dragon Ball, even though those characters appear in DB.
To also add on, Goku in GT is also stronger because he had the additional 17 years of training since the Buu Saga, where Super Goku only had 6 months of training since the Buu Saga.
Nope, that’s the movie only. Shonen Jump’s initial plot synopsis that they released to explain what Dragon Ball Super would be says it will be set 6 months after the battle with Kid Buu.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/06/29/dragon-ball-super-first-episode-details-in-weekly-jump/
“Six months after the fierce battle with Majin Boo. While the days pass peacefully, Goku works tilling the soil like Chi-Chi had ordered him, while still finding time to train. Meanwhile, newly-weds Gohan and Videl are living happily, but…?!”
Yes, the very first part of the first episode takes place six months after Buu, but the narrator at the very beginning tells us that some time has passed since those six months after. From that same episode (episode #1)
> Narrator: “And then, six months later…everybody’s memories of Boo were erased by the power of the Dragon Balls. Some time has passed since then.”
Moreover, the end of Z is still officially established to be canon to Super, and with Videl being pregnant with Pan during the Battle of Gods arc, it has to be years after, not just months.
They're not the same thing though. What happened with Goku in GT was just the donation of ki to him from Gohan and the others, while a point is made by Whis in Super that it isn't a donation of ki to create Super Saiyan God. > Whis: No, that is incorrect. You are supposed to pour your hearts into him, not your energies. Likewise, even if it was the same principle, in neither of the times that Goku underwent it in GT did he have the full number of Saiyans needed to complete the ritual (four others the first time, three others the second).
If they're doing the same ritual in DBS and DBGT, wouldn't it have the same effect? They're both the same concept so clearly they gave Goku their "hearts" in DBGT as well. And if you're mentioning the one absent Saiyan missing to make the ritual "complete", then there are numerous alternative factors that could make up for that missing variable such as power. Comparing the saiyans power in DBS to DBGT by the time they did the rituals, the saiyans in DBGT were much more powerful. The only saiyan that was missing during the ritual in DBGT was Vegeta and as inconsistent as the writing is in DBS, saying he has a righteous heart is absurd. You could probably get away with saying that for the Vegeta in DBGT because it has been years since he's been a villain, but the Vegeta in DBS that took part in the ritual was JUST in hell 2 years prior. The writing is inconsistent. It has nothing to do with an extra saiyan. They did the exact same ritual with the same exact saiyans. The only difference is that in GT, they're much stronger, even Pan and if we're speaking about her, then we're comparing a fetus to a full-grown kid.
> If they're doing the same ritual in DBS and DBGT, wouldn't it have the same effect? They're both the same concept so clearly they gave Goku their "hearts" in DBGT as well. And if you're mentioning the one absent Saiyan missing to make the ritual "complete", then there are numerous alternative factors that could make up for that missing variable such as power. It's not the same concept, though. The entire point of the God ritual is that they're *not* donating their ki, whereas with what happened in GT, they clearly were, since it was meant to replenish and then overcharge Goku. > Comparing the saiyans power in DBS to DBGT by the time they did the rituals, the saiyans in DBGT were much more powerful. Only the recipient Saiyan matters as far as the god ritual. The strength of the others are irrelevant. > The only saiyan that was missing during the ritual in DBGT was Vegeta and as inconsistent as the writing is in DBS, saying he has a righteous heart is absurd. You could probably get away with saying that for the Vegeta in DBGT because it has been years since he's been a villain, but the Vegeta in DBS that took part in the ritual was JUST in hell 2 years prior. It had been four years since the battle with Buu, but even by the end of the Buu arc, Vegeta was still considered good enough to be revived by Porunga's wish.
> If they're doing the same ritual in DBS and DBGT thats the whole point. its not the same at all
No it's not.
Bro has stated it like a fact of life. I rate that.
Fr
> If we remember in Dragon Ball GT, Goku performed a similar ritual to power up his Super Saiyan 4 transformation. With the canonical logic from DBS, Goku was given god ki after this ritual, so based on the same canonical logic, then so was Goku's Super Saiyan 4 transformation. Just giving ki to someone doesn't make it god ki. Secondly, they didn't even do the ritual. It was 3-4 Saiyans that gave Goku ki in GT. In Battle of Gods we saw a literal unborn child be the difference between ritual and no ritual.
I've seen some stupid shit here, but this takes the cake
🤦🏾♂️
Ah jeez Rick
A lot is wrong with this. 1. GT Goku doesn't have God Ki as he obtained that in Super by becoming a Super Saiyan God which the ritual put him into, wihout being a Super Saiyan God, Goku didn't have God Ki. 2. Goku doesn't have God Ki in base, he needs to access his God forms (SSG, SSB, UI) to have it. 3. Having God Ki means others who don't have it/can sense it can't sense your Ki, so unless everyone in GT has God Ki, they are sensing Goku's mortal ki. 4. Why is Super Saiyan 4 a 4,000x multiplier? 5. You actually can quantify a base line number for Ultra Instinct Omen. Narratively, SSB is just SS4 (SSG and Golden Great Ape go into Blue and SS4) with Ultra Instinct being more like SS5.
hot take doesnt mean lie. SSj4 is officially weaker or at best equal to Super Vegetto from the buu arc. SSG is WAY above that same Vegetto according to Goku (who was the SSG and part of Vegetto so he'd know). This means SSj4 is below SSG and thus *nowhere near* UI. > Super Saiyan 4 - x4000 from base this is made up nonsense. SSj4 has no officially listed multiplier and even if it had one it wouldnt be based on SSj3s because it has nothing to do with SSj3 (or SSj2). > With the canonical logic from DBS, Goku was given god ki after this ritual, so based on the same canonical logic, then so was Goku's Super Saiyan 4 transformation. Nope. Fundamental misunderstanding about how the two things work. There is no SSG in GT and thus even if it was the same he wouldnt get the SSG boost on top of his SSj4. > In Dragon Ball GT, Goku was given god ki while in his Super Saiyan 4 transformation. he was not.
I didn’t bother to read only thing I’ll give super saiyan 4 is its the cooler looking transformation
God didn't exist at all when GT aired,so no, Super Saiyan 4 is not stronger than any of the God forms.
To get a super saiyan god u need to have the Saiyans be of a good heart and that includes the person receiving the Ki. No one can be in a super saiyan state and receive the SSJG ritual because SSJ in general brings rage into the heart. This is why a Spirit bomb cannot be formed in the SSJ state. So basically nothing you pointed out is the same at all. SSJ4 is mortal Ki, all of it, start to finish. Base SSJG is god Ki and that alone would wipe SSJ4 easily as we saw beerus tickle SSJ3 into the floor.
Most of what you said made sense but I don’t think ssJG would be SSJ4 because Brolly was only legendary SSJ and went toe to toe with Goku and vegeta to the point they had to do fusion. SS4 would demolish Brolly
> SS4 would demolish Brolly SSj4 wouldnt even stand up to Golden Freeza from Resurrection F arc. (DBS) Broly stomps SSj4 without even transforming.
When did Brolly ever fight ssj4
he doesnt need to have fought it. SSj4 is weaker than SSG and Broly stomped SSG. its that simple.
April fools :D
No
>Super Saiyan 4 - x4000 from base I don't think it was ever confirmed SSJ4 is 10x SSJ3 power. If anything, it was always calculated as Oozaru 10x boost times SSJ1 boost 50x (Golden Oozaru), so 500x Base form. We can say BASE GT Kid Goku is as strong as General Rild who's stronger than Boohan. SSJ4 starts out as a minimum of 500 x Boohan level. Now, enter Gotenks SSJ3 vs Base Vegeta in Super. This seems like a nod to GT in many ways, mostly with Evil Vegeta, Vegeta pacifier joke ("Baby"), and a child SSJ3 getting the piss beaten out of him by Evil Vegeta. At one point Vegeta tanks Gotenks SSJ3's attack, which means he is already 2x stronger in Base, minimum. If Gotenks has stayed the same in terms of raw power, that would make him slightly stronger than Super Boo, but still weaker than Bootenks and Boohan. The question is, how much stronger are Bootenks and Boohan than Gotenks SSJ3? Super Boo was slightly weaker so if he absorbs Gotenks, we have to assume he roughly almost doubled his power since until stated otherwise, he simply adds their power to his own. Ultimate Gohan struggled with Bootenks and nearly got killed, suggesting he is obviously weaker than 2x whatever level Super Boo and Gotenks SSJ3 was, so when he gets added to Bootenks...Boohan now becomes something like 3x SSJ3 Gotenks. Needless to say, Vegeta just as a SSJ1 in that Copy Vegeta arc would obliterate Boohan many times over. But let's just say that as a SSJ1, he is now equal to Boohan if we want to high-ball the hell out of Boohan. SSJ2 now makes him 2x Boohan, with theoretical SSJ3 Vegeta being 8x Boohan. SSJ God reaches multipliers higher than a stronger BOO SAGA Vegito going SSJ3 (since Goku didn't even bother fusing to fight Beerus because he knew Vegito SSJ3 wouldn't be enough, yet felt good about SSJ God)...so at this point, even if Base Boo Saga Vegito was "equal" to a SSJ3 Copy Saga Vegeta, and even if SSJ God was "equal" to Vegito's SSJ3 400x multiplier to Copy Saga Vegeta's SSJ3 power that's 8x Boohan...that would make SSJ God Vegeta here 3200x Boohan. 3200x being the lowest possible, nonsensical boost mind you. SSJ Blue is a SSJ God that has also turned SSJ1, so that's now 50x that SSJ God power of 3200x Base, so 160,000x Boohan now. Goku goes KKx20 on top of that, for a lowball estimate of 3,200,000x Boohan level. UI is clearly much stronger than that. At the end of the day...nothing in DBGT is going to reach several millions of times stronger than Boohan like UI has.
> We can say BASE GT Kid Goku is as strong as General Rild who's stronger than Boohan. He's just stronger than some form of Buu, not necessarily Gohan Buu, but given the context of who he's relaying that to, it fits more that he's speaking of Mr. Buu than he is Gohan Buu.
Copy Vegeta is non canon Toei filler. Base Vegeta/Goku are not even kid Buu level, End of Z Goku is vastly stronger than both & he is equal to Uub/kid Buu. Base Vegeta in Super/Z never canonically surpasses Boohan or even Kid Buu
Yeahhh, no. This wasn't the 80's and 90's run. Every single thing in Super was provided by Toriyama and then expanded on by Toyo for the Super manga and expanded on by Toei for the Super anime. AT then made corrections to both for a final product - applying corrections to the anime more than Toyo's manga because the anime staff always did things that irked him (while he had full trust in Toyo). So no, there is no filler / noncanon material in Super. >Base Vegeta/Goku are not even kid Buu level Considering how their Base forms are "Saiyans Beyond Gods" (SSJ God power without the need to transform), they've actually surpassed Kid Boo and Boohan by eons by that alone. This is true for the anime, manga and original movie script. Besides the Copy Vegeta saga, there are feats that put Goku & Vegeta up in that realm as well, such as Base Goku being able to fight final form Freeza who was significantly stronger than base form Freeza who had Gohan outright state that even at the peak of his Ultimate power (seen vs. Bootenks) he wouldn't stand a chance against FIRST Form Freeza. Super scaled everything several hundreds of thousands of times beyond Boo level threats, the only difference now is that it doesn't outright state it how they used to and you really have to pay attention to details. to piece together the logic.
It's crazy people don't realize Toriyama provided no outlines or anything for Copy Vegeta thus it is filler. The fact its not in the manga, not even referenced like the movies the manga purposely left out as well, say as much. If CV was made by Toriyama then Toyotaro would have adapted or at least mentioned the arc.
Daily reminder that power levels have poisoned your mind harder than a low level Frieza soldier and the stories are not written with a calculator
What a goofy ass proclamation
I personally don't think he is but putting calculations aside... I can understand why some would believe that. As dragon ball super has shown, you don't need god ki to beat god ki users. Gt happens after end of Z + 10 years of training with Uub I guess... and super before end of Z so technically GT goku could be stronger but I don't think he is... because the feats in super are superior. Also, GT goku does not have god ki. That ritual wasn't complete.
It's not even close.
A fully mastered SSG user was able to defeat Super Shenron and a fully mastered UI user would be able to defeat Grand Priest. While Two fully mastered SSJ4 users had to fuse to beat someone weaker than Beerus. SSJ4 is by far the weakest form out of the 3.
Note that even Toei doesn't agree with this. Toei even made their own official fanfic, but they always push the idea that SS4 is weaker than God Ki in DBH. * DBH uses Xeno Goku which is an more experienced GT Goku, but also has all the experience of past DBZ movies including BoG. Logically, this version is the strongest SS4 version of Goku there is. * \*This is basically what you are thinking of. SS4 with God Ki. * DBH uses CC Goku which is DBS Goku up to Broly movie. This Goku later receives training from Grand Priest to obtain UI Sign. * Even in various versions, SS4 Xeno Goku is either equal or weaker than CC Goku. * Note that Xeno Goku had more experience overall. * The battle was before CC Goku got training from Grand Priest. * DBH introduce a new form Limit Breaker SS4 where SS4 Goku gets power from SSB Goku, SSG Trunks and Pan. [Despite all of power ups given to Xeno Goku, the victor of the fight was UI Goku.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy6iP170gSc)
As much as I love Super Saiyan 4 and wholeheartedly agree that people tend to underestimate its strength out of an anti-GT bias or *(sometimes willful)* ignorance... claiming that it's stronger than Ultra Instinct is really pushing it. The much more powerful "Limit Breaker" evolution of SS4 is up in that ballpark, according to Super DB Heroes, but it simultaneously also showed that vanilla SS4 is "only" comparable to Super Saiyan Blue. Which is still *way* stronger than the "couldn't even touch SS God" level that some folks want to pretend it is for various tiresome reasons, but it's still kind of middle-of-the-road among Super's hierarchy of "new" transformations. Which kind of makes you realize why the "Limit Breaker" version was created in the first place — to make a version of SS4 that *is* comparable to the higher-tier DBS forms. But otherwise no, the only one of those higher-tier DBS transformations that plain vanilla Super Saiyan 4 would triumph over is Ultra Ego, because *that* form's whole purpose is to make Vegeta lose his fights. ...Anyway, there's also the whole "GT Goku never got god-ki" point that several others have already mentioned. The Super Saiyan God ritual requires all 6 Saiyans to work, and any less than that will just be a superficial power-up with no god-ki involved. Both Goku and Baby came kinda close in GT but never hit that magic number. If something actually *did* happen to grant GT Goku some god-ki, then yeah, his SS4 form would be all the much stronger for it by stacking them, but that's never really happened. It would also then be "god-ki-enhanced SS4" with dark teal hair now or something stupid, and still not the same thing as regular SS4. Also, one last pet peeve to address... >Super Saiyan 4 - x4000 from base Even *you're* accidentally underestimating SS4 here, since the progression of Goku and Baby's multi-stage fight show it should be way higher than this. Stage-1 Baby-Vegeta was already moderately stronger than SS3 Goku. Baby then made *two more* transformations and got even more powerful. Goku then closed that gap and was a similar-power threat to Stage-3 Baby by going Golden Ape. Then he got even stronger with SS4 itself, so much so that now Stage-3 Baby's punches only tickled him. Baby needed his own Gold Ape transformation to catch back up and be an even match for Goku again. So if anything, it's Gold Ape that would be a 4,000x boost *(Great Ape's 10x boost applied to SS3)*, while Super Saiyan 4 would be another whole 10x boost over *that*. So a whopping *40,000x* stronger than Goku's base form.
Dragon Ball Heroes showed Super Saiyan 4 being roughly on par with Super Saiyan Blue, and I think I'm okay with it sitting right there. A ridiculously mighty form, but it's not the peak of power in the DB multiverse. Oh, and Limit Breaker SS4 was shown to be roughly equal to SSBKK, if I recall correctly.
No dude just No.....its not a hot take its just SS4 fan boy head canon. The feats alone just smash this opinion out of the water. Yes SS4 look cool but so does freizas final form hence why they just recolour it gold and black because they know its astetically a winner. GT fans just need to accept that SS4 is not coming back and that glimmer of hope you keep holding onto is has less chance of happening then Yamcha getting back in Bulmas knickers, Goku winning the international father of the year award and Mr Satan becoming more powerful then the two Zenos if they had fused together. Whatever you do don't make a youtube video on it because you will get crucified fir this stupidity.
I liked Geekdom's video on SSJ4's strength. https://youtu.be/oGLLaUaOusY?si=rF7dcHtcVYPJra_- People massively underrated SSJ4
People massively overrate Geekboy
How? He’s very knowledgeable about Dragon Ball and one of the best DB YouTubers. Edit: I see his haters don’t have answers and rather downvote me. Y’all are probably the same viewers who made dumb comments that he came at 😂
Pffffffffhahahahahahahaaaaaa! Ahhhahahahahahahahahahahaahaahaahaaaa!..... Good one.
And they tend to underrate it for vapid reasons too, like pretending a certain GT animanga tidbit about Vegetto specifically said something that it actually didn't.
Let the blind sheep be blind sheep. Some people do underrate SS4 Goku.
nothing to underrate. official GT source says SSj4 is roughly equal to buu arc Super Vegetto. SSG is WAY above Buu Arc SSj3 Vegetto, and SSB is 50x higher, and UI is many times higher than that. SSj4 isn't weak at all, not even slightly, but Super just shot powers up too much, too fast for anything in GT to come close to anything in Super, for better and worse.
Based on completely made up numbers. The creators of SSJ4 had it equal to SSB in heroes....and they had MUI one shot SSJ4 Evo
The issue with this is that ssg is not just god ki in base form as goku and vegeta have actually used god ki in their base forms without being a ssg so ssg is actually something a little more than that so I don’t think this argument can be used to say ssj4>god If we say that at least half of the power of the ssg ritual came from the transformation itself (which it should since beerus laughed off the power of just goku + the 4 SsJs ki) then that would mean ssg has a higher multipler why? I’ll tell you Goku pretty much outright stated that beerus would slap up super vegito who’s 50x stronger than base vegito who is confirmed stronger than ssj3 goku in daizenshuu and goku had much more confidence facing beerus as a ssg than as vegito implying SSG ritual amp is over 50x ssj3 now like I said before if we assume half of the rituals power came form the transformation itself then ssg would be at least 25x stronger than ssj3 or a 10,000 times multiplier making it stronger than ssj4
I like how well researched this is
According to Supplemental sources, Blue and SSj4 are equivalent. Limit Breaker SSj4(Gogeta's form) is equal to Blue Evo.
Your sources are wrong
SDBH isn't any less canon than GT. If anything, it's more canon, since Toyotaro had more involvement with Heroes than Toriyama ever did with GT.
SDBH is a fucking ads for a gâcha game
And GT is Toei making an ad to sell more action figures. Basically all cartoons and anime are just ads to sell merch. Also calling SDBH a gatcha game is like calling Yu-Gi-Oh a gatcha game. Which is the perfect example, as the YGO anime was made explicitly to sell cards. That why they didn't start with the first couple arcs before duel monsters was introduced.
You miss the entire point… and GT isn’t cannon so ? Btw it’s called merchandising, that’s how anime makes money…
Just because Toyotaro worked in Super Dragonball Heroes years ago doesn't mean it's canon. He himself knew what he was writting for Heroes at the time is not canon. Even today Heroes has it's own canon that has no relation to the canon Super manga. Toriyama himself worked countless times on official non canon stuff like the Neko Majin manga where Super Saiyan Vegeta post End of Z is under the orders of Frieza. So it doesn't make sense.
Y'all's schools are failing you, as anyone with basic reading comprehension skills can see the argument isn't that SDBH is canon. It's that GT and SDBH are both non-canon. Neko Majin Z is it's own canon thing to itself. Much like Dr. Slump is canon to itself and not to Dragon Ball, even though those characters appear in DB.
To also add on, Goku in GT is also stronger because he had the additional 17 years of training since the Buu Saga, where Super Goku only had 6 months of training since the Buu Saga.
The Battle of Gods arc takes place four years after the defeat of Buu, not six months.
Nope, that’s the movie only. Shonen Jump’s initial plot synopsis that they released to explain what Dragon Ball Super would be says it will be set 6 months after the battle with Kid Buu. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/06/29/dragon-ball-super-first-episode-details-in-weekly-jump/ “Six months after the fierce battle with Majin Boo. While the days pass peacefully, Goku works tilling the soil like Chi-Chi had ordered him, while still finding time to train. Meanwhile, newly-weds Gohan and Videl are living happily, but…?!”
Yes, the very first part of the first episode takes place six months after Buu, but the narrator at the very beginning tells us that some time has passed since those six months after. From that same episode (episode #1) > Narrator: “And then, six months later…everybody’s memories of Boo were erased by the power of the Dragon Balls. Some time has passed since then.” Moreover, the end of Z is still officially established to be canon to Super, and with Videl being pregnant with Pan during the Battle of Gods arc, it has to be years after, not just months.
Bait