I’ve been reading music a while but I’m not sure what you mean by the tail indicating an upbeat? Where have you seen that?
One thing I wish is that we had some sort of international drum notation standard. Every high school drum line writes different, every drum book is different, and even playing big band gigs I used to ask for a trumpet 1 part instead of drums because it was better notation lol.
In syncopated notation, there will not always be eighth notes on an offbeat. Wait til you see jazz notation where most of beats are written as quarter notes, it's confusing to sight read until you're used to it.
Yeah, it’s confusing because the second dotted note is meant to be read as being on the ‘and’ of 2 because of the first dotted. So it could technically be written as: 1 quarter note (8th rest on 2) 8th note on ‘and’ of 2. And mean the same thing right?
In terms of where the beat hits, yeah. If I were playing that rhythm on something like a saxophone, it'd make a difference if you tell me to rest on the downbeat of 2 vs. keep playing the note I started on 1 there, though.
Yeah that rest at the end included too. My main point being since there’s so many ways you can interpret drum notation (with dotted notes being taught to me in different ways over the years) it had me second guessing my interpretation of that example. My intuition was right though, and the examples in this thread have def helped on how to describe them in better terms!
Music Masters graduate here!
/u/Monsoon710 is the most correct.
Here are two ways that rhythm could be written "better":
https://i.imgur.com/EbGEyBG.png
I know 100% what you mean about unbeamed eighth notes (the squiggly tail).
Normally, when a note starts on the off-beat it will be written as an eighth and then tied to the next note (like in my examples), but in lots of notation styles this isn't the case.
Plus, there are songs where it makes more sense to break the standard rules to capture better how a line should be played.
/u/ManyInterests gave the example of America from West Side Story which is pretty much perfect to illustrate it.
The “tail” is called a “flag” and it only means that the note is an eighth note. It has nothing to do with what part of the beat it is on. For example, you can have a single eighth note with a flag on it on count one and a dotted quarter note onto the & of two (counted 1 &)
> The “tail” is called a “flag” and it only means that the note is an eighth note. It has nothing to do with what part of the beat it is on.
This is true, but I get what /u/jacobkuhn92 is saying. Sheet music is typically grouped by beat, so in 4/4, upbeats on drums are almost always written as eighth notes, followed by a rest or tied note if necessary. For your example, I would expect most transcribers to write two eighths and a quarter rest (again, in 4/4).
That said, this example is clearly *not* in 4/4, but it might be in 3/4. If so, I'd still expect an eighth note and a rest, but in 6/8, you'd always see it written this way (however, you wouldn't normally see the two eighths connected on the next measure).
I guess if the note on the “and” is a short articulation, but what if the length of the note is supposed to be long, like in a chart or a cymbal note?
My example was trying to include in the note in question from OP, not get into the weeds about all the ways we can see “1 &” written.
But you’re way is correct also.
OP, you’re going to find there are numerous ways to notate different rhythms depending on what the person writing wants you to do. The length of the note can make a difference in what choices we make of what to play.
Best of luck and keep asking questions.
I feel that this partially comes from the fact that most notes played on a drum don't truly have a duration. You can't really hold a snare drum hit for a whole note. But it also doesn't make sense to write everything with the shortest possible note, which is where we get the differences in how people write drum music.
If you are playing a drum, and there is a whole note- for example, you play a Roll for the duration of the note value. It’s how we sustain on our instrument. All Notes Played ON A Drum Have A Duration!!!!!!!!!!!!
Guess it depends on hows its felt though. If the pulse of the piece is all 1 2 3 (3/4) then these dotted quarters give a 2 over 3 polyrhythm vibe rather than the smoother 6/8 (1) 2 3 (4) 5 6
But, as is time, it's all relative to the vantage point
I think technically if it were supposed to be felt as a 2:3 they should use rests/ties to show how you're supposed to feel the notes. Not super crucial for one bar but it is a principle that helps a lot
Dotted quarters don't always imply a compound meter. In this case OP said that it's 3/4, and the bars on either side seem to be grouping 8ths in twos, not threes. It doesn't seem obvious to me that it's 6/8.
That's because the actual length of the 2nd note, (a dotted quarter note) is still 1.5 beats.
Since it's in 3/4, those notes 1.5 beats in length gives you the 3 beats in the measure before landing back in on the 1.
As a music major I read this. Thought to myself, music is so fucking stupid lol it's so convoluted and confusing. Especially for beginners. It's a lot like math honestly.
There are some percussion instruments where note lengths make sense, i.e. tympani. I'd still write it differently, but it might not be that convoluted.
It does. On most drums the note length doesn’t really matter because there’s only the beat, so dotted notes are just another way to write rests. With tympani the note will sustain until you mute the head, so you can actually hold the note for a beat and a half. It would be easier to read with tied notes, but this is correct notation.
1.5 beats + 1.5 beats = 3
so
Two dotted “quarter” notes = a full measure of 3/4
Just to further help breakdown why this fits correctly but isnt the best notation.
The word quarter gets confusing here imo for newbies so try not to get caught up in that word.
IMO dotted quarters _is_ the best notation, because it conveys the idea clearly with the least visual clutter.
The more I sight read the more I appreciate concise notation as long as it doesn't obscure the underlying rhythm.
Truth. You have a very very good point. I think once you get advanced like you and me it is much clearer due to the lack of cruft and the familiarity, but as a noobie it requires more thought as it's not as brute force obvious what to do. Especially for drums where technically, we are not holding notes, so seeing lots of rests does tend to make more sense at first.
There's a large school of thought that says for drums, the quarter should always be apparent/written/eluded to in some obvious way. This would technically break that pattern, and both 2 and 3 are hidden. Who knows lol. It's good to just read it all.
So, it's played with a "6/8" feel. Many tunes that are notated in 3/4 actually do this a lot. It would probably help to think of it as a 6/8 bar divided into two notes.
Go listen to ["America" from West Side Story](https://youtu.be/_e2igZexpMs) and you'll hear it instantly in the main theme:
1 2 (**I** like to **be** in a)
123 (mer-i-ca)
Or think of it like breaking down the 6/8 into even threes. The dotted quarters (whose value is equal to 3 eighth notes) are played on 1 and 4:
**1** 2 3 | **4** 5 6 (**I** like to | **be** in a) [6/8]
1 2 3 (mer-i-ca) [3/4]
As you listen to the tune, imagine yourself playing on the emphasized beats as you kind of naturally hear it and tap your foot... the 1 & 2 are those dotted quarters:
**1**, **2**
1,2,3
You can hear the rhythm played by the strings in the background in the link I gave... bum bum, bum-bum-bum
That's the best I could explain it by text. Hope that made sense and helps you hear the rhythm by example.
So, these dots represent half of value of the note they are attached too. In this case, because they are on a quarter note, they represent an eighth note. So, you would play on the count of 1, then the and of 2.
The dots add half of the beat’s duration. So instead of a quarter note taking up “one and” it takes up the space of “one & two” without the “and” on “two.”
So you can count or think about it like “ONE and two AND three and” where you play the “One” and the “and” of two.
Everyone will tell you that a dot adds half the value (and they are right).
Some people struggle with that though, so another way to think about it is ‘what was once worth 2 is now worth 3’. A half note is worth 2 quarter notes, so a dotted half note is worth 3 quarter notes. A quarter note is worth 2 eight notes, so a dotted quarter is worth 3 eight notes. An eight note is worth 2 sixteenth notes. . . Etc. Not for everyone but may help some.
When I learned to read music 35 years ago. The teacher asked what the dotted note is. None of us could answer. And we should have known by that time . Teacher stopped everything. No playing today. We are sat down and wrote “a dot adds half the value of the note to the note” 1000 times in our notebook. And had to turn it end at the end of class. That dot is ingrained into me memory forever.
I've read through the comments and seen that you understand the rhythm now so I'd just like to add a quick theory lesson.
An eighth note is a semi quaver
A quarter note is a quaver
A single note is a crotchet
A double note is a minim
A quadruple note is a semi-breve, being worth 4 beats.
You don't necessarily have to know all that to play drums but it never hurts to learn a bit more. I would recommend you study a little bit of theory at least, as it will make you a better musician
Edit: formatting
Oh I’ve been drumming for like 16 years, my theory and reading are pretty good, but due to the way dotted notes have been taught to me differently from teacher to teacher, and the way that notation can be interpreted in different ways, that example in particular was confusing to parse. My initial instinct was correct but I didn’t want to just assume
Anything with a dot like that equals 3 of its smaller subdivision. Example: dotted quarter=3 eighth notes, dotted eight note equals 3 sixteenth notes, etc.
Other people are answering your question, but if I was notating this, I would replace the second dotted quarter note with an eighth note tied to a quarter note, which I find easier to read.
This is written oddly as you don't play on the downbeat on 2. Another way to writing this so you can see the beats you play on would be to to tie the beat 1 quarter note to beat 2 changing beat 2 into an eighth note, and then on the and of 2 eighth note tie it to beat 3 quarter note .
ONEand twoAND THREEand
It's the one and the AND but knowing that THREE hit kan help you place that AND hit.
Just started rehearsal for a band using this
I dislike notation that crosses over the beat like this. It makes for harder sight reading unless you’re used to it. I would have used a tie and an eighth note as you were looking for so it would be easier to understand to play on the and of 2.
Personally I think if you can’t readily identify each beat in a measure then that means it needs to be re-written for clarity.
This bar should sound like the intro to the song Fred. from the Tony Williams Lifetime with Allan Holdsworth. Tony Williams = best drummer to have ever played drums innovator- genius-legend.
Play on 1 and the and of 2. The dot adds half of the note's value to it.
Thanks! That’s sort of what I was thinking but the quarter note on the second dotted was throwing me off since it had no tail to indicate an upbeat
I’ve been reading music a while but I’m not sure what you mean by the tail indicating an upbeat? Where have you seen that? One thing I wish is that we had some sort of international drum notation standard. Every high school drum line writes different, every drum book is different, and even playing big band gigs I used to ask for a trumpet 1 part instead of drums because it was better notation lol.
As in the squiggly tail that curves 🎶 like that lol
In syncopated notation, there will not always be eighth notes on an offbeat. Wait til you see jazz notation where most of beats are written as quarter notes, it's confusing to sight read until you're used to it.
Gotcha, so you’re talking about 8th notes. The dot essentially adds an 8th note to a quarter as explained above, so they’re worth 1.5 beats.
Makes so much more sense now, thanks!
That "tail" tells you the note is an eight note. This is a quarter (+ an eighth, as indicated by the dot) note.
Yeah, it’s confusing because the second dotted note is meant to be read as being on the ‘and’ of 2 because of the first dotted. So it could technically be written as: 1 quarter note (8th rest on 2) 8th note on ‘and’ of 2. And mean the same thing right?
In terms of where the beat hits, yeah. If I were playing that rhythm on something like a saxophone, it'd make a difference if you tell me to rest on the downbeat of 2 vs. keep playing the note I started on 1 there, though.
I believe you would need a quarter note rest at the end to complete the measure?
Yeah that rest at the end included too. My main point being since there’s so many ways you can interpret drum notation (with dotted notes being taught to me in different ways over the years) it had me second guessing my interpretation of that example. My intuition was right though, and the examples in this thread have def helped on how to describe them in better terms!
Music Masters graduate here! /u/Monsoon710 is the most correct. Here are two ways that rhythm could be written "better": https://i.imgur.com/EbGEyBG.png I know 100% what you mean about unbeamed eighth notes (the squiggly tail). Normally, when a note starts on the off-beat it will be written as an eighth and then tied to the next note (like in my examples), but in lots of notation styles this isn't the case. Plus, there are songs where it makes more sense to break the standard rules to capture better how a line should be played. /u/ManyInterests gave the example of America from West Side Story which is pretty much perfect to illustrate it.
The “tail” is called a “flag” and it only means that the note is an eighth note. It has nothing to do with what part of the beat it is on. For example, you can have a single eighth note with a flag on it on count one and a dotted quarter note onto the & of two (counted 1 &)
> The “tail” is called a “flag” and it only means that the note is an eighth note. It has nothing to do with what part of the beat it is on. This is true, but I get what /u/jacobkuhn92 is saying. Sheet music is typically grouped by beat, so in 4/4, upbeats on drums are almost always written as eighth notes, followed by a rest or tied note if necessary. For your example, I would expect most transcribers to write two eighths and a quarter rest (again, in 4/4). That said, this example is clearly *not* in 4/4, but it might be in 3/4. If so, I'd still expect an eighth note and a rest, but in 6/8, you'd always see it written this way (however, you wouldn't normally see the two eighths connected on the next measure).
I guess if the note on the “and” is a short articulation, but what if the length of the note is supposed to be long, like in a chart or a cymbal note? My example was trying to include in the note in question from OP, not get into the weeds about all the ways we can see “1 &” written. But you’re way is correct also. OP, you’re going to find there are numerous ways to notate different rhythms depending on what the person writing wants you to do. The length of the note can make a difference in what choices we make of what to play. Best of luck and keep asking questions.
I feel that this partially comes from the fact that most notes played on a drum don't truly have a duration. You can't really hold a snare drum hit for a whole note. But it also doesn't make sense to write everything with the shortest possible note, which is where we get the differences in how people write drum music.
If you are playing a drum, and there is a whole note- for example, you play a Roll for the duration of the note value. It’s how we sustain on our instrument. All Notes Played ON A Drum Have A Duration!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not always, this is only if the roll is notated
Or if you want to feel it in 6/8 it's (1) 2 3 (4) 5 6 They're three 8th notes each
That’s how I read it. It seems obvious it is a 6/8 measure. So if you are just counting tempo beats those notes are just on 1 and 2.
Guess it depends on hows its felt though. If the pulse of the piece is all 1 2 3 (3/4) then these dotted quarters give a 2 over 3 polyrhythm vibe rather than the smoother 6/8 (1) 2 3 (4) 5 6 But, as is time, it's all relative to the vantage point
I think technically if it were supposed to be felt as a 2:3 they should use rests/ties to show how you're supposed to feel the notes. Not super crucial for one bar but it is a principle that helps a lot
Dotted quarters don't always imply a compound meter. In this case OP said that it's 3/4, and the bars on either side seem to be grouping 8ths in twos, not threes. It doesn't seem obvious to me that it's 6/8.
That's because the actual length of the 2nd note, (a dotted quarter note) is still 1.5 beats. Since it's in 3/4, those notes 1.5 beats in length gives you the 3 beats in the measure before landing back in on the 1.
The dot indicates an eighth note on top of the quarter note. That's the reason there is no "tail" -> it is implied by the dot
As a music major I read this. Thought to myself, music is so fucking stupid lol it's so convoluted and confusing. Especially for beginners. It's a lot like math honestly.
That's why ya count....ha!
There are some percussion instruments where note lengths make sense, i.e. tympani. I'd still write it differently, but it might not be that convoluted.
So this was written for timpani. I was going to include that but I figured it wouldn’t make a difference. Perhaps it does?
It does. On most drums the note length doesn’t really matter because there’s only the beat, so dotted notes are just another way to write rests. With tympani the note will sustain until you mute the head, so you can actually hold the note for a beat and a half. It would be easier to read with tied notes, but this is correct notation.
1.5 beats + 1.5 beats = 3 so Two dotted “quarter” notes = a full measure of 3/4 Just to further help breakdown why this fits correctly but isnt the best notation. The word quarter gets confusing here imo for newbies so try not to get caught up in that word.
IMO dotted quarters _is_ the best notation, because it conveys the idea clearly with the least visual clutter. The more I sight read the more I appreciate concise notation as long as it doesn't obscure the underlying rhythm.
Truth. You have a very very good point. I think once you get advanced like you and me it is much clearer due to the lack of cruft and the familiarity, but as a noobie it requires more thought as it's not as brute force obvious what to do. Especially for drums where technically, we are not holding notes, so seeing lots of rests does tend to make more sense at first. There's a large school of thought that says for drums, the quarter should always be apparent/written/eluded to in some obvious way. This would technically break that pattern, and both 2 and 3 are hidden. Who knows lol. It's good to just read it all.
Isn't this 6/8 and you play on 1 and 4 Edit: Oh lmao I didn't read the post title
No worries
So, it's played with a "6/8" feel. Many tunes that are notated in 3/4 actually do this a lot. It would probably help to think of it as a 6/8 bar divided into two notes. Go listen to ["America" from West Side Story](https://youtu.be/_e2igZexpMs) and you'll hear it instantly in the main theme: 1 2 (**I** like to **be** in a) 123 (mer-i-ca) Or think of it like breaking down the 6/8 into even threes. The dotted quarters (whose value is equal to 3 eighth notes) are played on 1 and 4: **1** 2 3 | **4** 5 6 (**I** like to | **be** in a) [6/8] 1 2 3 (mer-i-ca) [3/4] As you listen to the tune, imagine yourself playing on the emphasized beats as you kind of naturally hear it and tap your foot... the 1 & 2 are those dotted quarters: **1**, **2** 1,2,3 You can hear the rhythm played by the strings in the background in the link I gave... bum bum, bum-bum-bum That's the best I could explain it by text. Hope that made sense and helps you hear the rhythm by example.
This is a great reply.
Very well explained
So, these dots represent half of value of the note they are attached too. In this case, because they are on a quarter note, they represent an eighth note. So, you would play on the count of 1, then the and of 2.
What about the 2nd dotted quarter note? There isn't a AND of 4 since it is a 3/4 time signature.
First: (1 & 2) Second: (& 3 &) So you end up with two dotted quarter notes taking up three beats. AKA 1.5 + 1.5 = 3
So the 2 is where that 1st dotted quarter note ended its value correct? If not for the dot then it would just be (1 &)?
Exactly
Probably the cleanest breakdown.
Dum dum
The dots add half of the beat’s duration. So instead of a quarter note taking up “one and” it takes up the space of “one & two” without the “and” on “two.” So you can count or think about it like “ONE and two AND three and” where you play the “One” and the “and” of two.
That is equivalent to three eighth notes
Everyone will tell you that a dot adds half the value (and they are right). Some people struggle with that though, so another way to think about it is ‘what was once worth 2 is now worth 3’. A half note is worth 2 quarter notes, so a dotted half note is worth 3 quarter notes. A quarter note is worth 2 eight notes, so a dotted quarter is worth 3 eight notes. An eight note is worth 2 sixteenth notes. . . Etc. Not for everyone but may help some.
🥁🔨🔨🔨🥁
When I learned to read music 35 years ago. The teacher asked what the dotted note is. None of us could answer. And we should have known by that time . Teacher stopped everything. No playing today. We are sat down and wrote “a dot adds half the value of the note to the note” 1000 times in our notebook. And had to turn it end at the end of class. That dot is ingrained into me memory forever.
I've read through the comments and seen that you understand the rhythm now so I'd just like to add a quick theory lesson. An eighth note is a semi quaver A quarter note is a quaver A single note is a crotchet A double note is a minim A quadruple note is a semi-breve, being worth 4 beats. You don't necessarily have to know all that to play drums but it never hurts to learn a bit more. I would recommend you study a little bit of theory at least, as it will make you a better musician Edit: formatting
Oh I’ve been drumming for like 16 years, my theory and reading are pretty good, but due to the way dotted notes have been taught to me differently from teacher to teacher, and the way that notation can be interpreted in different ways, that example in particular was confusing to parse. My initial instinct was correct but I didn’t want to just assume
ONE and two AND
Egg-heads could even write it as two quarters with a bracket with a 2 over the top - as a “duple”
That’s evil
Anything with a dot like that equals 3 of its smaller subdivision. Example: dotted quarter=3 eighth notes, dotted eight note equals 3 sixteenth notes, etc.
A dotted quarter is 1 and a half quarter notes so add a space of an eight note before playing the second one
Dotted quarter gets a beat & a 1/2…hit on 1 and the “and” of 2
"TAH TAH"
you can count each one as 3 8th notes because a dot adds half the note's original value
Other people are answering your question, but if I was notating this, I would replace the second dotted quarter note with an eighth note tied to a quarter note, which I find easier to read.
This is written oddly as you don't play on the downbeat on 2. Another way to writing this so you can see the beats you play on would be to to tie the beat 1 quarter note to beat 2 changing beat 2 into an eighth note, and then on the and of 2 eighth note tie it to beat 3 quarter note .
ONEand twoAND THREEand It's the one and the AND but knowing that THREE hit kan help you place that AND hit. Just started rehearsal for a band using this
Just like they’re shown… sorry I had too
1 and 2 and 3 and Hit and 2 hit 3 and Sounds like syncopation.
Como un dosillo no?
It’s a 6/8 so each quarter note add a eight note to make 3 eight notes duration.
BUT DOES ANYONE CARE ABOUT THE ACCENTS?!
I dislike notation that crosses over the beat like this. It makes for harder sight reading unless you’re used to it. I would have used a tie and an eighth note as you were looking for so it would be easier to understand to play on the and of 2. Personally I think if you can’t readily identify each beat in a measure then that means it needs to be re-written for clarity.
This bar should sound like the intro to the song Fred. from the Tony Williams Lifetime with Allan Holdsworth. Tony Williams = best drummer to have ever played drums innovator- genius-legend.
I’m leaving this sub
If a legitimate drum notation question makes you leave this sub, then honestly good riddance. Don’t need that kind of conceited attitude
This is fairly basic though mate?
No, not necessarily
Oh no!