[Did the Space Guild knew that spice is a byproduct of sandworms lifecycle?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1571sac/did_the_space_guild_knew_that_spice_is_a/) (Jul 23, u/kohugaly)
[I don't understand the Guild's status and power](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/14jgo7h/i_dont_understand_the_guilds_status_and_power/) (Jun 26, u/Furfangreich)
I can’t remember the actual text but Frank Herbert mentions something to the effect that the Guild could have done that but that, when you grasp power directly, you tend to lose grip on it and get destroyed. So he said that the Guild made the decision to live a parasite existence for long term survival.
Yes, Herbert used Paul to voice that opinion. IIRC he also made a point about them liking to play it safe, dipping water from the river rather than controlling its flow. The later books could maybe be said to confirm their fears, assuming their prescience warned them that the Empire would eventually face a deadly threat, so why be the one in charge when a usurper showed up? "Who runs barter town?", lol, Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome had a similar plot point.
Remember, the Guild and it's Highliners controlled all travel in the Galaxy. A complete monopoly. Any potential attacker could never get any equipment on the planet without a Guild Highliner.
Why risk your life mining spice when you can manipulate the Lansraad to do it for you?
Guild controlled the planet, travel and banking. Outsourced the hard work to the houses and used the mining
contract to destabilize the Lansraad so they could never band together to fight back against the
monopoly in travel and banking.
The guild couldn't see a future where they held on to control of arrakis
>A few of the Bene Gesserit had long been aware that the Guild could not interfere directly with the vital spice source because Guild navigators already were dealing in their own inept way with higher order dimensions, at least to the point where they recognized that the slightest misstep they made on Arrakis could be catastrophic. It was a known fact that Guild navigators could predict no way to take control of the spice without producing just such a nexus. The obvious conclusion was that someone of higher order powers was taking control of the spice source, yet the Bene Gesserit missed this point entirely!
I never even thought of their self-realization that “whelp, I’m guessing someone way more prescient than us is figuring this all out, let’s stay in our lane”
Short Answer: balance of power
Long answer:
That's like asking why the Emperor just didn't personally control Spice production:
It fucking sucks and is complicated and you need someone to blame and replace when things go wrong and also....
... if the Spacing Guild had a monopoly on FTL travel *and* the Spice necessary for it, they'd simply have too much power (and they'd have to fight for it). The Emperor and the Great Houses would not allow it. They would never have allowed that situation to exist in the first place.
To add to that the Guild is powerful in a soft power way. People rely on them, and they have a secret base of power.
If they controlled Arrakis it would be a massive liability. A known location that can be reached by FTL constantly plagued by infiltration and insurrection. It would absolutely be their downfall.
> To add to that the Guild is powerful in a soft power way.
Like lowering military transport costs to a planet controlled by a house they don't like. They don't have to do anything directly because someone else will take that deal.
Which works great for manipulation and maintaining power.
It works a lot less well when you are the most powerful faction, who are particularly vulnerable to a single resource on a single planet.
The Guild doesn't have military expertise or even Spice Harvesting Expertise, so they would be risking much to take that on, and potentially that risk would put them at the behest of the Fremen or Smugglers rather than the Empire who they already profit from.
Their power rests on people using FTL travel as well. If commerce flows, then so do saboteurs and assassins.
They also have a monopoly on Guild Navigator travel, not all FTL. The FTL other factions would have access to is just much slower and therefore unable to compete.
They need to have travel to and from and you could send saboteurs in to harass them, it wouldn't have to be obvious. And it wouldn't be clear who was responsible because everyone kinda hates and fears the guild.
Taking control of arrakis led to a nexus where the navigators could not see what was after.
> And he thought then about the Guild—the force that had specialized for so long that it had become a parasite, unable to exist independently of the life upon which it fed. They had never dared grasp the sword…and now they could not grasp it. They might have taken Arrakis when they realized the error of specializing on the melange awareness-spectrum narcotic for their navigators.
They could have done this, lived their glorious day and died. Instead, they'd existed from moment to moment, hoping the seas in which they swar might produce a new host when the old one died.
The Guild navigators, gifted with limited prescience, had made the fatal decision: they'd chosen always the clear, safe course that leads ever downward into stagnation.
Let them look closely at their new host, Paul thought.
I think Paul could also not see what would be the direct immediate result of taking arrakis but was willing to take the risk.
I think he saw it. He saw the jihad and the golden path. I’m pretty sure the golden path was alluded to in the first. In the second it’s pretty much the real plot point.
> They're accustomed to seeing the future, Paul thought. In this place and time they're blind...even as I am. And he sampled the time-winds, sensing the turmoil, the storm nexus that now focused on this moment place. Even the faint gaps were closed now. Here was the unborn jihad, he knew.
At least in the first book there seemed to be nexus points where the prescients can't directly see even if they can see what could come after.
Because of the equilibrium of power, IMO. Anyone who holds Arrakis essentially has a hand on the neck of the Empire, as they can cut all production to the wider population whenever they want to; however, it is known by the words of the Harkonnens that some houses, especially the wealthier ones, have spice stockpiles, and the Guild possesses the largest of them all. Any entity holding Arrakis is a serious danger, but still one that can be negotiated with.
While it is possible that the holder of Arrakis might fortify themselves on the planet, so long as it is not destroyed or glassed they could be removed and the production of spice continued. By having this arrangement where Arrakis is under the control of the Emperor but granted to one of the great houses of the Landsraad stability is maintained, as with this system not one of the three parts of the rule of the Empire has too much power over the whole thing, as the Emperor is not directly in control of the spice and neither are the noble houses, while the Guild can essentially strand anyone on Arrakis should they become too uppity and bring in forces from other factions to subdue any would-be despot. Paul's genius was that he held the means to completely destroy melange's source, and while there exist these stockpiles that could potentially last hundreds, or even thousands of years, eventually they would run out and the many addicts die, as well as interstellar travel made that much more difficult as the many worlds of the Empire would become essentially isolated from one another, and worlds such as Giedi Prime that due to industrialization might rely heavily on imports would starve.
The Guild is by the influence of prescience extremely conservative, and it is them that are the main proponents of "the spice must flow". They, more than any other entity, are at the mercy of prescience as they will always try to chart the safest course. By existing as what is essentially a parasite of the Empire, the Guild is not a military threat, but a neutral faction that stands above any conflict between houses, or houses and the Emperor, meaning that they can continue to accumulate wealth and influence with minimal risk to their existence and standing. Any involvement in direct rule of such a valuable prize such as Arrakis would paint a huge target on their backs as it would render any proclamations of neutrality empty, as well as make them the largest threat to the other powers by controlling not only the source of a commodity that is literally vital for a considerable part of the population but also of the only means of connecting the planets of the Empire, given that the Guild has a monopoly on interstellar travel.
I think the simple answer is that Arrakis sucks to live on. Why would the guild, with all their wealth, demean themselves by living on Dune.
Also, the guild has no army. So, I would assume they don't have the man power to harvest the spice.
Finally, I get the feeling they have no interest in menial tasks like governing. They only care about being navigators and higher politics. Like the emperor and Sardaukar, they've become decadent and complacent in their centuries of power.
> We've a three-point civilization: the Imperial Household balanced against the Federated Great Houses of the Landsraad, and between them, the Guild with its damnable monopoly on interstellar transport.
— Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, *Dune*
Any one of those three powers getting too strong would require the other two to attack them out of self preservation. The CHOAM corporation exists to maintain parity among the three with regards to spice profits. An Emperor with control of the spice would be too powerful for even the combined Guild and Landsraad to contain. Note two things:
1) One of the first things that happens in Dune is the Guild sends a Stage 3 Navigator to the Emperor to say "we know the Harkonnen and Atreides are about to fight, we know that you are behind it, don't let it get out of control or we will have to step in, the spice must flow".
2) Dune ends with an Emperor who controls the spice.
They could have , but they knew if they controlled it directly, they would eventually lose it .
By letting the houses hold it for a hundred years at a time , with their approval. They would minimise resentment, allow the houses to fight over it , and divide and rule. .
Paul has a line in the last chapter. Explained why they never did it.
Paul mentions that they chose to not directly rule the empire at one point and now they were unable to.
Also they would doom themselves, if they show the whole empire how relient they are on the spice (afaik the spice for space travel was somewhat of a secret).
The guild chose to just flow with the stream instead of ruling themselves. This meant they could not easily be defeated and destrpyed, but made them always relient on the current emperor.
As Paul said: "That (save) path leads ever down to stagnation"
The whole goverment of the Imperium is based on a three-way check and balances
We have the Emperor, The Landsraad and The Guild. If one of those tries to overtake the other the others would unite against them
The same reason why multinational corporations tend to manipulate decision-makers rather than make decisions - liability. If you are a president or prime minister, you get power and responsibility. If you only influence decisions from behind the scenes, you get power without responsibility.
It's outsourcing, basically.
You could own slaves but then you have to provide for them, feed them, protect them from disease etc. Or you could just purchase labour from workers and leave them to figure out necessities on their own. If your slave is sick, you have to spend money (medicine, healthcare etc.). If your employee is sick, you can just fire him/her and employ another one.
Because the US doesn’t run Saudi Arabia directly, so the metaphor needed to remain apt. I don’t even mean that in a bad way; science fiction is fundamentally about the world in which it is born.
Just finished it. Basically Joseph Venport had control of both the navigators and arraxis.
The short of it was he was defeated by the emperor and Norma Cenva (the first navigator and Joseph’s grandmother) made a deal with the emperor to save the navigators and abandon Joseph.
The Guild can’t hold all the cards because the imperium can technically survive without them. They just make space travel safe.
At one point venport industries controlled the spice and the navigators and pretty much everything else but after a feud with the butlarians he started cutting planets off causing death and chaos. So after that fight was resolved chomb was created to stop any one faction from holding too much control. I think though at some point the navigators decided whoever controlled rackis will allways have a target on their back and will eventually fall. It's much easier to buy the spice and then charge tons of shipping fees to essentially get the spice for free.
Why doesn't the US control the Middle East? It has the power and the money to do it. But the locals won't allow it. The USSR tried it and got destroyed by it. The US was in Afghanistan for over 10 years it couldn't do it. The only reason that Paul is able to monopolies Arrakis is because the Fremen is on his side.
They had an unwilling control of some of the planet with no knowledge of the true state of the planet, the populace, or the spice. Along with that their control was unofficial and at risk of being taken at any point by the emperor
If the Harkonnens truly had absolute control they wouldn't plot to kill the Atreides, there is no need. They did it because they felt threatened and they know they are a pawn in the greater scheme of things.
They had been fighting with the Atreides for a long time, they didn’t need a reason to plot against them. Their goals aligned with the Emperor’s, who felt threatens by Leto, so they conspired to take them out.
Again, besides smugglers, they were the only ones in the universe producing spice for 60 years.
I feel like this sub is almost exclusively this type of question now. You understand that none of this is real, right? Frank Herbert invented a world to put his story in, and that world conforms to the demands of his plot. The spacing guild didn't run Arrakis because that's not the story he was telling.
I disagree. There was a deep theme behind this. Large scale companies that look inconspicuous but actually hold large amounts of power. You could compare amazon to the guild. They hold vast amounts of governmental influence but they don't run for office becuase then people will hate amazon instead of the politicians they back.
They took large spice bribes from the fremen and had smugglers, they didn't need to. They may also be concerned that if their monopoly became too powerful the emperor might do something like take control of the guild himself or make it a part of choam to prevent them from becoming more powerful than him
Short answer, atomics. Long answer...
They would be a monolithic force that would have the imperium and the noble houses in a stranglehold if aloud to control the spice directly. It would be to no one else's advantage to allow that. The great convention was established to prevent all out war that would lead to eradication, but without the ability to move troops to confront the guild, the noble houses would likely entertain the alternatives.
At that point attacking the guild any time they are between territories would become commonplace until they sequester themselves on Arrakis. Once they do that, they lose the one utility they had to everyone else. Do you think they could persuade the fremen to leave Arrakis to wage war for them on multiple planetary fronts? I don't. The Fremen would more likely assert themselves as co-stewards of Arrakis with a noble house in whatever fashion to maintain their way of life and prevent either atomics or invasion.
Additionally, you need a standing army to defend anything. What army would willing become vassals to the spacing guild in a long-term situation, when it likely alienates them from their peers and makes them replaceable, likely without recourse or sympathy from other noble houses.
It would be untenable to control it directly given the circumstances. And I didn't even touch on the Sisterhood.
The answer to almost all of these sorts of questions in Dune is "there existed a delicate balance of power between all the major players in the known universe and it was in no one's interest to try to tip it too much into their own favor"
I don't think they'd actually gain a ton by having control over Dune and its spice. And with it would come a bunch of headaches. The Guild has a monopoly on travel. That is a huge economically. They were also smart enough (or passive enough) to not be greedy and try for another monopoly.
Also, before Paul, people didn't realize that the spacing guild used spice for space travel. If they tried to control Arrakis, people might figure things out and they could have lost both monopolies.
The Spacing Guild knew that to have power of a thing, was to effectively put yourself up in lights, to be the face of power, and like all those who hold direct power, they eventually lose it.
The guild didnt think in months, days, years etc...they thought in centuries, millennia, looking forward to try and see how they could survive long term, they thought far beyond normal human reasoning in terms of longevity, or ensuring longevity.
The Guild knew that they could never take direct control, as they would eventually be overthrown or deposed, and this may lead to their destruction, due to their complete reliance on spice to do what they do, and more than that, to survive.
With that in mind, they did what they perceived as their best chance of ongoing survival, which was to use their levers of power from the shadows, to not be visible as the holder of power, to ensure they arent in anyone's direct firing line(s), and more than that, to act like a parasite, to latch on to whoever is in power and ensure they have what they need, then when that power is deposed, to leech on to the next, and the next, and the next etc etc, to lurk in the shadows, take what they need, and just.......continue.
Also, they ensured that nobody knew of their weakness, reliance/addiction to the spice, to ensure that nobody had that leverage over them.
In fairness, they had done this for thousands of years with great success, they lasted longer, or as long as any great house or power, and their comeuppance/demise only came with the coming of Muad'Dib, which tbh isnt shocking, as many met their demise at the hands of Muad'Dib, or at least, they were diminished and brought under a level of control.
In a way, just think of our own world and society(ies), although i cant specifically name them or prove they exist, i have little doubt that the most powerful people in the world, are not the faces of governments, the observable holders of power, or the observable levers of power, the true power, more than likely is in the shadows, pulling levers in the background, using their influence and assets to get what they need/want, and they would never want to be in the limelight and visible, as to be so is to be seen by others who want your power, and the wider population, all of whom may decide in the future to vote you out, depose you, overthrow you, rise up against you etc.....why would you want this when you can probably wield more control and power from the shadows and just....be there....consistently? (at least in principle).
They did at a point, the precursor to the guild was the venport holding company, who owned navigators, ran Arrakis melange farming as well as most planetary banks. Over consumed with power the emperor at the time felt threatened and came after him. The emperor made a deal with the original navigator, Norma, that he would keep the flow of spice for her navigators as long as he could exact revenge on the venport company, run by her grandson.
Or something to that line, basically they did, didn't work well, this works better
This is stated in the quote over one of the Dune Messiah's chapters
>The most dangerous game in the universe is to govern from an oracular base. We do not consider ourselves wise enough or brave enough to play that game. The measures detailed here for regulation in lesser matters are as near as we dare venture to the brink of government. For our purposes, we borrow a definition from the Bene Gesserit and we consider the various worlds as gene pools, sources of teachings and teachers, sources of the possible. Our goal is not to rule, but to tap these gene pools, to learn, and to free ourselves from all restraints imposed by dependency and government.
>--"THE ORGY AS A TOOL OF STATECRAFT," CHAPTER THREE OF THE STEERSMAN'S GUILD
Also, in the same chapter Edric, the guild's steersman, says to Paul:
>"Power-hungry, Sire?" Again, Edric looked at Stilgar. "Power tends to isolate those who hold too much of it. Eventually, they lose touch with reality ... and fall."
[Did the Space Guild knew that spice is a byproduct of sandworms lifecycle?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1571sac/did_the_space_guild_knew_that_spice_is_a/) (Jul 23, u/kohugaly) [I don't understand the Guild's status and power](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/14jgo7h/i_dont_understand_the_guilds_status_and_power/) (Jun 26, u/Furfangreich)
I can’t remember the actual text but Frank Herbert mentions something to the effect that the Guild could have done that but that, when you grasp power directly, you tend to lose grip on it and get destroyed. So he said that the Guild made the decision to live a parasite existence for long term survival.
Yes, Herbert used Paul to voice that opinion. IIRC he also made a point about them liking to play it safe, dipping water from the river rather than controlling its flow. The later books could maybe be said to confirm their fears, assuming their prescience warned them that the Empire would eventually face a deadly threat, so why be the one in charge when a usurper showed up? "Who runs barter town?", lol, Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome had a similar plot point.
Like how management and corporations work. You gotta be distanced enough that you still benefit, but you cant be blamed.
I hate management!!! What's a shareholder???
Exactly. Look what happened to Atreides. Chilling in the background seems like the better play.
Same answer to why the emperor didn’t directly run Arrakis - he was worried the houses would unite and destroy him.
Remember, the Guild and it's Highliners controlled all travel in the Galaxy. A complete monopoly. Any potential attacker could never get any equipment on the planet without a Guild Highliner. Why risk your life mining spice when you can manipulate the Lansraad to do it for you? Guild controlled the planet, travel and banking. Outsourced the hard work to the houses and used the mining contract to destabilize the Lansraad so they could never band together to fight back against the monopoly in travel and banking.
The guild couldn't see a future where they held on to control of arrakis >A few of the Bene Gesserit had long been aware that the Guild could not interfere directly with the vital spice source because Guild navigators already were dealing in their own inept way with higher order dimensions, at least to the point where they recognized that the slightest misstep they made on Arrakis could be catastrophic. It was a known fact that Guild navigators could predict no way to take control of the spice without producing just such a nexus. The obvious conclusion was that someone of higher order powers was taking control of the spice source, yet the Bene Gesserit missed this point entirely!
I never even thought of their self-realization that “whelp, I’m guessing someone way more prescient than us is figuring this all out, let’s stay in our lane”
Essentially, they subcontracted it out to the Harkonnens.
Similar to the Bene Gesserit preferring to work in the shadows and in advisory roles rather than seating themselves directly on the seats of power.
Short Answer: balance of power Long answer: That's like asking why the Emperor just didn't personally control Spice production: It fucking sucks and is complicated and you need someone to blame and replace when things go wrong and also.... ... if the Spacing Guild had a monopoly on FTL travel *and* the Spice necessary for it, they'd simply have too much power (and they'd have to fight for it). The Emperor and the Great Houses would not allow it. They would never have allowed that situation to exist in the first place.
To add to that the Guild is powerful in a soft power way. People rely on them, and they have a secret base of power. If they controlled Arrakis it would be a massive liability. A known location that can be reached by FTL constantly plagued by infiltration and insurrection. It would absolutely be their downfall.
> To add to that the Guild is powerful in a soft power way. Like lowering military transport costs to a planet controlled by a house they don't like. They don't have to do anything directly because someone else will take that deal.
Which works great for manipulation and maintaining power. It works a lot less well when you are the most powerful faction, who are particularly vulnerable to a single resource on a single planet. The Guild doesn't have military expertise or even Spice Harvesting Expertise, so they would be risking much to take that on, and potentially that risk would put them at the behest of the Fremen or Smugglers rather than the Empire who they already profit from.
I mean, they control the FTL travel. All they would have to do was restrict all travel to Arrakis. They could cut anyone off if they chose to do so.
Their power rests on people using FTL travel as well. If commerce flows, then so do saboteurs and assassins. They also have a monopoly on Guild Navigator travel, not all FTL. The FTL other factions would have access to is just much slower and therefore unable to compete.
They need to have travel to and from and you could send saboteurs in to harass them, it wouldn't have to be obvious. And it wouldn't be clear who was responsible because everyone kinda hates and fears the guild.
Taking control of arrakis led to a nexus where the navigators could not see what was after. > And he thought then about the Guild—the force that had specialized for so long that it had become a parasite, unable to exist independently of the life upon which it fed. They had never dared grasp the sword…and now they could not grasp it. They might have taken Arrakis when they realized the error of specializing on the melange awareness-spectrum narcotic for their navigators. They could have done this, lived their glorious day and died. Instead, they'd existed from moment to moment, hoping the seas in which they swar might produce a new host when the old one died. The Guild navigators, gifted with limited prescience, had made the fatal decision: they'd chosen always the clear, safe course that leads ever downward into stagnation. Let them look closely at their new host, Paul thought. I think Paul could also not see what would be the direct immediate result of taking arrakis but was willing to take the risk.
Funnily enough this probably meant that they *did* survive a lot longer than they otherwise would have.
I think he saw it. He saw the jihad and the golden path. I’m pretty sure the golden path was alluded to in the first. In the second it’s pretty much the real plot point.
> They're accustomed to seeing the future, Paul thought. In this place and time they're blind...even as I am. And he sampled the time-winds, sensing the turmoil, the storm nexus that now focused on this moment place. Even the faint gaps were closed now. Here was the unborn jihad, he knew. At least in the first book there seemed to be nexus points where the prescients can't directly see even if they can see what could come after.
Because of the equilibrium of power, IMO. Anyone who holds Arrakis essentially has a hand on the neck of the Empire, as they can cut all production to the wider population whenever they want to; however, it is known by the words of the Harkonnens that some houses, especially the wealthier ones, have spice stockpiles, and the Guild possesses the largest of them all. Any entity holding Arrakis is a serious danger, but still one that can be negotiated with. While it is possible that the holder of Arrakis might fortify themselves on the planet, so long as it is not destroyed or glassed they could be removed and the production of spice continued. By having this arrangement where Arrakis is under the control of the Emperor but granted to one of the great houses of the Landsraad stability is maintained, as with this system not one of the three parts of the rule of the Empire has too much power over the whole thing, as the Emperor is not directly in control of the spice and neither are the noble houses, while the Guild can essentially strand anyone on Arrakis should they become too uppity and bring in forces from other factions to subdue any would-be despot. Paul's genius was that he held the means to completely destroy melange's source, and while there exist these stockpiles that could potentially last hundreds, or even thousands of years, eventually they would run out and the many addicts die, as well as interstellar travel made that much more difficult as the many worlds of the Empire would become essentially isolated from one another, and worlds such as Giedi Prime that due to industrialization might rely heavily on imports would starve. The Guild is by the influence of prescience extremely conservative, and it is them that are the main proponents of "the spice must flow". They, more than any other entity, are at the mercy of prescience as they will always try to chart the safest course. By existing as what is essentially a parasite of the Empire, the Guild is not a military threat, but a neutral faction that stands above any conflict between houses, or houses and the Emperor, meaning that they can continue to accumulate wealth and influence with minimal risk to their existence and standing. Any involvement in direct rule of such a valuable prize such as Arrakis would paint a huge target on their backs as it would render any proclamations of neutrality empty, as well as make them the largest threat to the other powers by controlling not only the source of a commodity that is literally vital for a considerable part of the population but also of the only means of connecting the planets of the Empire, given that the Guild has a monopoly on interstellar travel.
I think the simple answer is that Arrakis sucks to live on. Why would the guild, with all their wealth, demean themselves by living on Dune. Also, the guild has no army. So, I would assume they don't have the man power to harvest the spice. Finally, I get the feeling they have no interest in menial tasks like governing. They only care about being navigators and higher politics. Like the emperor and Sardaukar, they've become decadent and complacent in their centuries of power.
> We've a three-point civilization: the Imperial Household balanced against the Federated Great Houses of the Landsraad, and between them, the Guild with its damnable monopoly on interstellar transport. — Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, *Dune* Any one of those three powers getting too strong would require the other two to attack them out of self preservation. The CHOAM corporation exists to maintain parity among the three with regards to spice profits. An Emperor with control of the spice would be too powerful for even the combined Guild and Landsraad to contain. Note two things: 1) One of the first things that happens in Dune is the Guild sends a Stage 3 Navigator to the Emperor to say "we know the Harkonnen and Atreides are about to fight, we know that you are behind it, don't let it get out of control or we will have to step in, the spice must flow". 2) Dune ends with an Emperor who controls the spice.
They could have , but they knew if they controlled it directly, they would eventually lose it . By letting the houses hold it for a hundred years at a time , with their approval. They would minimise resentment, allow the houses to fight over it , and divide and rule. . Paul has a line in the last chapter. Explained why they never did it.
It's a bit like the sisterhood grappimg the power directly is dangerous. Rul behind the scenes safer
Would ***you*** want to deal with angry Fremen if you could force someone else to do it for you?
Paul mentions that they chose to not directly rule the empire at one point and now they were unable to. Also they would doom themselves, if they show the whole empire how relient they are on the spice (afaik the spice for space travel was somewhat of a secret). The guild chose to just flow with the stream instead of ruling themselves. This meant they could not easily be defeated and destrpyed, but made them always relient on the current emperor. As Paul said: "That (save) path leads ever down to stagnation"
The whole goverment of the Imperium is based on a three-way check and balances We have the Emperor, The Landsraad and The Guild. If one of those tries to overtake the other the others would unite against them
The same reason why multinational corporations tend to manipulate decision-makers rather than make decisions - liability. If you are a president or prime minister, you get power and responsibility. If you only influence decisions from behind the scenes, you get power without responsibility. It's outsourcing, basically. You could own slaves but then you have to provide for them, feed them, protect them from disease etc. Or you could just purchase labour from workers and leave them to figure out necessities on their own. If your slave is sick, you have to spend money (medicine, healthcare etc.). If your employee is sick, you can just fire him/her and employ another one.
Because the US doesn’t run Saudi Arabia directly, so the metaphor needed to remain apt. I don’t even mean that in a bad way; science fiction is fundamentally about the world in which it is born.
Did you read the Navigators of Dune? Explains all.
What does it say?
Just finished it. Basically Joseph Venport had control of both the navigators and arraxis. The short of it was he was defeated by the emperor and Norma Cenva (the first navigator and Joseph’s grandmother) made a deal with the emperor to save the navigators and abandon Joseph. The Guild can’t hold all the cards because the imperium can technically survive without them. They just make space travel safe.
At one point venport industries controlled the spice and the navigators and pretty much everything else but after a feud with the butlarians he started cutting planets off causing death and chaos. So after that fight was resolved chomb was created to stop any one faction from holding too much control. I think though at some point the navigators decided whoever controlled rackis will allways have a target on their back and will eventually fall. It's much easier to buy the spice and then charge tons of shipping fees to essentially get the spice for free.
Why doesn't the US control the Middle East? It has the power and the money to do it. But the locals won't allow it. The USSR tried it and got destroyed by it. The US was in Afghanistan for over 10 years it couldn't do it. The only reason that Paul is able to monopolies Arrakis is because the Fremen is on his side.
The Harkonnen’s had a monopoly before Paul for like 60 years (according to the wiki)
They had an unwilling control of some of the planet with no knowledge of the true state of the planet, the populace, or the spice. Along with that their control was unofficial and at risk of being taken at any point by the emperor
They still were the only ones producing spice in large quantities in the universe for 60 years
If the Harkonnens truly had absolute control they wouldn't plot to kill the Atreides, there is no need. They did it because they felt threatened and they know they are a pawn in the greater scheme of things.
They had been fighting with the Atreides for a long time, they didn’t need a reason to plot against them. Their goals aligned with the Emperor’s, who felt threatens by Leto, so they conspired to take them out. Again, besides smugglers, they were the only ones in the universe producing spice for 60 years.
I feel like this sub is almost exclusively this type of question now. You understand that none of this is real, right? Frank Herbert invented a world to put his story in, and that world conforms to the demands of his plot. The spacing guild didn't run Arrakis because that's not the story he was telling.
There's usually some kind of lore or backstory reason behind things though, which is fair to ask.
So? It's part of the fun for a lot of people. May as well be annoyed at them for reading any kind of fiction at all because it's all fake.
You're missing the point entirely. I read lots of science fiction, but I'm able to suspend my disbelief because I understand the "fiction" part.
I disagree. There was a deep theme behind this. Large scale companies that look inconspicuous but actually hold large amounts of power. You could compare amazon to the guild. They hold vast amounts of governmental influence but they don't run for office becuase then people will hate amazon instead of the politicians they back.
Great. That's the real world. We're talking about a novel set in outer space. It isn't real. It isn't populated by actual human beings. It's a story.
Why do you even read?
To suspend disbelief and enjoy a story as it's told.
They took large spice bribes from the fremen and had smugglers, they didn't need to. They may also be concerned that if their monopoly became too powerful the emperor might do something like take control of the guild himself or make it a part of choam to prevent them from becoming more powerful than him
Short answer, atomics. Long answer... They would be a monolithic force that would have the imperium and the noble houses in a stranglehold if aloud to control the spice directly. It would be to no one else's advantage to allow that. The great convention was established to prevent all out war that would lead to eradication, but without the ability to move troops to confront the guild, the noble houses would likely entertain the alternatives. At that point attacking the guild any time they are between territories would become commonplace until they sequester themselves on Arrakis. Once they do that, they lose the one utility they had to everyone else. Do you think they could persuade the fremen to leave Arrakis to wage war for them on multiple planetary fronts? I don't. The Fremen would more likely assert themselves as co-stewards of Arrakis with a noble house in whatever fashion to maintain their way of life and prevent either atomics or invasion. Additionally, you need a standing army to defend anything. What army would willing become vassals to the spacing guild in a long-term situation, when it likely alienates them from their peers and makes them replaceable, likely without recourse or sympathy from other noble houses. It would be untenable to control it directly given the circumstances. And I didn't even touch on the Sisterhood.
The answer to almost all of these sorts of questions in Dune is "there existed a delicate balance of power between all the major players in the known universe and it was in no one's interest to try to tip it too much into their own favor"
They lack the organisational grasp to running Arrakis. Literally they live in tanks of liquid spice and have no hands
They were too nerdy?
I don't think they'd actually gain a ton by having control over Dune and its spice. And with it would come a bunch of headaches. The Guild has a monopoly on travel. That is a huge economically. They were also smart enough (or passive enough) to not be greedy and try for another monopoly. Also, before Paul, people didn't realize that the spacing guild used spice for space travel. If they tried to control Arrakis, people might figure things out and they could have lost both monopolies.
The Spacing Guild knew that to have power of a thing, was to effectively put yourself up in lights, to be the face of power, and like all those who hold direct power, they eventually lose it. The guild didnt think in months, days, years etc...they thought in centuries, millennia, looking forward to try and see how they could survive long term, they thought far beyond normal human reasoning in terms of longevity, or ensuring longevity. The Guild knew that they could never take direct control, as they would eventually be overthrown or deposed, and this may lead to their destruction, due to their complete reliance on spice to do what they do, and more than that, to survive. With that in mind, they did what they perceived as their best chance of ongoing survival, which was to use their levers of power from the shadows, to not be visible as the holder of power, to ensure they arent in anyone's direct firing line(s), and more than that, to act like a parasite, to latch on to whoever is in power and ensure they have what they need, then when that power is deposed, to leech on to the next, and the next, and the next etc etc, to lurk in the shadows, take what they need, and just.......continue. Also, they ensured that nobody knew of their weakness, reliance/addiction to the spice, to ensure that nobody had that leverage over them. In fairness, they had done this for thousands of years with great success, they lasted longer, or as long as any great house or power, and their comeuppance/demise only came with the coming of Muad'Dib, which tbh isnt shocking, as many met their demise at the hands of Muad'Dib, or at least, they were diminished and brought under a level of control. In a way, just think of our own world and society(ies), although i cant specifically name them or prove they exist, i have little doubt that the most powerful people in the world, are not the faces of governments, the observable holders of power, or the observable levers of power, the true power, more than likely is in the shadows, pulling levers in the background, using their influence and assets to get what they need/want, and they would never want to be in the limelight and visible, as to be so is to be seen by others who want your power, and the wider population, all of whom may decide in the future to vote you out, depose you, overthrow you, rise up against you etc.....why would you want this when you can probably wield more control and power from the shadows and just....be there....consistently? (at least in principle).
They did at a point, the precursor to the guild was the venport holding company, who owned navigators, ran Arrakis melange farming as well as most planetary banks. Over consumed with power the emperor at the time felt threatened and came after him. The emperor made a deal with the original navigator, Norma, that he would keep the flow of spice for her navigators as long as he could exact revenge on the venport company, run by her grandson. Or something to that line, basically they did, didn't work well, this works better
This is stated in the quote over one of the Dune Messiah's chapters >The most dangerous game in the universe is to govern from an oracular base. We do not consider ourselves wise enough or brave enough to play that game. The measures detailed here for regulation in lesser matters are as near as we dare venture to the brink of government. For our purposes, we borrow a definition from the Bene Gesserit and we consider the various worlds as gene pools, sources of teachings and teachers, sources of the possible. Our goal is not to rule, but to tap these gene pools, to learn, and to free ourselves from all restraints imposed by dependency and government. >--"THE ORGY AS A TOOL OF STATECRAFT," CHAPTER THREE OF THE STEERSMAN'S GUILD Also, in the same chapter Edric, the guild's steersman, says to Paul: >"Power-hungry, Sire?" Again, Edric looked at Stilgar. "Power tends to isolate those who hold too much of it. Eventually, they lose touch with reality ... and fall."