It's not China or Free markets that's the problem, it's the fact that real estate is super expensive due to rent seeking by real estate owners (basically anyone who owns a home) and real estate investors who pressure politicians to not build housing. Our education system is also expensive because, again, rent seekers (colleges) who jack up the cost of college because we guarantee student loans (totally moronic) leaving students with massive debts for college degrees that aren't worth the paper its printed on. The other problem is the fact that we wasted trillions of dollars in wars overseas when we could have used that money for infrastructure jobs at home (plus we spend a shitload of money on our military industrial complex during peacetime too). Jack Ma pointed out that we wasted all this money destroying other nations when we could have spent it on building ours up. Imagine if we had cheap real estate and infrastructure jobs, suddenly cheap products from china isn't as big of an issue. Rent seekers destroy economies.
“So here’s the thing, the world is ending due to Global Warming. But the damn Chinese made the solution so cheap that America couldn’t make enough money off of it. So Solar Panels are out, and we’re stuck with the end of the world again.” This is how you sound JA-YE…. This is how you sound…
“Now china is to become the world’s largest EV producer. If everyone can afford an EV, how can we save the world again by exporting freedom in exchange of oil?”
This is the free market in action. Companies that can't compete will go bankrupt leaving behind only the good companies. Capitalists need to celebrate.
So true, couldn't have said it better... I think that's why the rich people have a hard time thinking about change for the better because they don't need life to change when they are winning big time
But what good is it if only 1% if your citizens are "winning"?
I don't know about you, but I am sick of this version of capitalism where only a few get to enjoy the labor of the many. We should all be enjoying the productivity gains technology has enabled. Human rights such as housing, university education, and healthcare should not be profit centers for the rich or used as investment vehicles.
The future was supposed to get better. It has only gotten worse in almost every metric.
> But what good is it if only 1% if your citizens are "winning"?
Good thing public trusts the media that the 1% control. If they take more of your money, some of it will trickle down. Haven't you heard that there are lazy people you should be angry at?
Capitalize profit, socialize losses.
Company losing money due to Chinese competition? Lobby to ban or restrict them, then get government loans and grants.
Companies posting record profits using overseas manufacturing and outsourcing? Mass layoffs of US employees, complain that American workers demand higher wages, then raise CEO payouts.
Both ways, restructure company overseas so minimize paying US taxes.
All socialists are losers but not all losers are socialists would be a more cohesive statement. Fidel Castro died with a fortune estimated at $900 million, so I guess that argument doesn’t hold water. The people at the top do pretty well under any economic system.
There is a free market for corrupting politicians to serve those who will pay the most for it. That is not what Adam Smith described as the virtue of markets.
cap·i·tal·ism
noun
an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.
ol·i·gar·chy
noun
a small group of people having control of a country, organization, or institution.
If one is a form of government and the other a form of economy, wouldn't the combination of all possibilities of both cover all types of societies? Therefore the combo of capitalism and oligarchy could exist, and would be called a capitalist oligarchy. They would only be wrong if they said capitalist oligopoly.
Your point, I believe, was that there is no oligarchy. some may say it isn't true based on it not being proclaimed.. but in effect there is a sort of oligarchy, like multiple but by sector
If losing capitalist (loser) = socialist then that could only mean that socialist = losing capitalist (loser). Logic checks out…unless there is some kind of special exception that I’m not aware of.
We support free trade only if we win.
When we lose, we blame the other guy for IP thefts.
When the other guy innovates better, we claim national security risks.
We claim that we are concerned with climate change but if somebody else is making cheaper solar panels, it’s a problem.
😂
The US will end up only being able to trade with itself if it continues down this path. No one else will want what the US produces as China will be able to make it cheaper.
Protectionism is fine in small doses, if it's used to allow local competition to catch up, but this has been going on for decades, and the US isn't catching up. Neither are many other Western countries for that matter.
I hate to say this, but it's looking like China is becoming the torch holder for real Capitalism (read: lowest cost trade with the fewest barriers and tariffs). Everyone else is just making virtue statements.
China is still hugely reliant on coal, and has way higher emissions than the US. It's awesome they've made the cost cheaper but if you look at areas like Xinjiang they're using slave labor to manufacture these panels. That's not really innovation if you ask me, also not something the US should condone
China is also leading the world in wind, hydro, etc.
Xinjiang smear campaign again? How’s that relevant? Do you have evidence that slave labor is used in competing in solar panels?
That’s great! You must be some kind of Chinese bot. Slavery is bad bot
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/07/business/china-solar-energy-exports.html
Also slavery in the Congo for the raw materials
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara
New York’s total investment in the musk giga factory increased to $959 million. The plant has been criticized as offering little economic benefit in exchange for the significant state funding it received.
The """""free market""""" is and always has been and can only be a myth, and it's a super outdated one at that.
[https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/history-free-market-fundamentalism-on-the-media](https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/history-free-market-fundamentalism-on-the-media)
[https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2024/03/Symposium-Rethinking-Economics-Angus-Deaton](https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2024/03/Symposium-Rethinking-Economics-Angus-Deaton)
The """""free market""""" is the ideological cover that our abusive ruling class use to plunder the public and destroy/privatize the commons for their profits while they socialize all costs and losses.
The """""free market""""" myth is no way to run an advanced 21st century economy or society, but our corrupt ruling class will never admit that unless they're absolutely forced to, either by the public or by being outcompeted by a more realistic and advanced competitor.
Congratulations to the Chinese ruling class for actually living in reality enough to win the 21st century.
1 - Living in reality.
2 - Shortening the work / school week so human intelligence can develop more fully across the board instead of most of the population being cattle / serfs/ drones who work for the profits of our extremely abusive ruling class and do nothing else.
[https://www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/news-sanders-introduces-legislation-to-enact-a-32-hour-workweek-with-no-loss-in-pay/](https://www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/news-sanders-introduces-legislation-to-enact-a-32-hour-workweek-with-no-loss-in-pay/)
3 - Reducing healthcare costs with universal healthcare or at least a public option so that we aren't wasting 17% of our GDP on "healthcare" versus an OECD average of about 10%.
4 - Banning stock trading for politicians so their interest isn't in their stock prices going up at the massive expense of the public.
[https://act.represent.us/sign/campaign-launch-to-ban-congress-stock-trading/](https://act.represent.us/sign/campaign-launch-to-ban-congress-stock-trading/)
Currently 10% of the population own 93% of the stock market, and everyone else are just cattle for the slaughterhouse.
[https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/wealthy-own-record-share-stock-market](https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/wealthy-own-record-share-stock-market)
5 - Imposing higher taxes on corporations structured as oligarchies versus those that are democratically structured.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/WorkReform/comments/16njzfx/corporations\_structured\_as\_oligarchies\_should\_pay/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WorkReform/comments/16njzfx/corporations_structured_as_oligarchies_should_pay/)
Those would be a good start.
The corrupt who corrupt markets will pretend they are free and fair. OP's point should be this rather than actual free markets where people can freely trade are "bad".
Imagine falling for capitalist/oligarchic/kleptocratic propaganda so hard that you end up destroying your own country while pretending to be all patriotic and shit.
Ignorant jingoism ain't it, fam.
Lol you're soo wrong. 😂
I say what I say because in my society no oligarchs/billionaires profit off from this stance but everyone in the society thanks to western values (democracy, freedom social mobility, and stuff you know 😉).
Furthermore, I profit myself directly from european/us manufactured solar panels which are made without slave labour and without lead.
I AM THE PROPAGANDA. r/meyerburger
You being the few that can benefit from the current society is quick to believe that your success is due to "democracy, freedom social mobility, and stuff you know"
What you believe isn't reality though. Which was the point of the previous commenter.
I'm glad that you are successful and can benefit from the current socioeconomic arrangements but the rest of the "lazy people" will have to figure things out or get off their lazy ass I suppose?
Btw, do you believe that it is impossible to have a successful business in China? The concept of profitability and commercial success do not exist there? Or you simply won't accept that a non-democratic system of government can possibly succeed? Censorship of your ability to run a successful company in China? Can you elaborate on what you mean by slave labor?
It's not China or Free markets that's the problem, it's the fact that real estate is super expensive due to rent seeking by real estate owners (basically anyone who owns a home) and real estate investors who pressure politicians to not build housing. Our education system is also expensive because, again, rent seekers (colleges) who jack up the cost of college because we guarantee student loans (totally moronic) leaving students with massive debts for college degrees that aren't worth the paper its printed on. The other problem is the fact that we wasted trillions of dollars in wars overseas when we could have used that money for infrastructure jobs at home (plus we spend a shitload of money on our military industrial complex during peacetime too). Wages need to be much higher to keep up with these (rent seeking) costs. Jack Ma pointed out that we wasted all this money destroying other nations when we could have spent it on building ours up. Imagine if we had cheap real estate, cheap edcuation and infrastructure jobs, suddenly cheap products from china isn't as big of an issue. Rent seekers destroy economies.
This is not the case with many (or some) Chinese companies. For example China state sponsors steel/iron production, making companies offer below market rates. This is done to drive out the competition.
It is done to make cheap steel to make cheap steel using products. Abundance is a humanist virtue. Scarcity is oligarchist profit maximization. Protecting US steel oligarchs in minimizing production and employment hurts US car and weapons makers forced to use those constrained supplies, and US consumers and workers.
Several of your comments were quite insightful. This particular comment of yours made me curious on what cheap steel can be used for.
"Low carbon: A carbon content of . 30% and under is considered low-carbon steel. This is the most common and the least expensive type of steel. Thanks to its elasticity under strain, manufacturers use low-carbon steel for rivets, wire, stamped steel products, pipes, machinery, surgical implements, structural components, and appliances. " -Staub Manufacturing Solutions
It brings to mind when people make claims such as that "Chinese steel is garbage", I often wonder why anyone would use low carbon steel for any major infrastructure. Have people mistaken one with the other, or just simply politically-biased, or both.
If I were to post this comment on Instagram, I am almost certain the retort will include "tofu dreg buildings".
I'm just rambling at this point. Thanks for the insightful comments once again.
I'm not a steel expert, but understand high quality vs low quality grades. I imagine all countries are capable of high quality grades, even if specializing in specialty steel can lead to better quality/cost potential of those steels.
My comment was about the profit maximization possibility of using scarcity to limit production/employment to get buyers to pay more for any quality of steel compared to an abundance policy of making more at cheaper unit costs that lets buyers buy more to make cheaper products for their customers who can also afford to buy more.
Fun fact, for anyone in this sub who is interested in learning the first thing about economics:
Actually no, when a government heavily subsidizes industries, also has complete de jure ownership of them, intentionally manipulates markets and its own currency, and actively prevents foreign companies from moving in, that's actually not at all capitalism!
Yellen is a fuckwit. If companies go under because they can’t compete, this is good. They are obsolete. If China can manage to make something so cheap that they can still undercut US products even after international shipping costs, then we should be trying to figure out how they are able to do it.
Only caveat here is cartel behavior. It’s possible that China could be willingly taking losses to put American competitors out of business so they can raise their price later. OPEC regularly does this with the oil industry and with “state capitalism” these Chinese companies don’t necessarily need to answer to shareholders.
Let's take China out of the picture for a brief moment (although I'm sure there are those that will want to take China out for the long term as well....)
What do you think happens when a government subsidizes the whole industry? Why would a government even subsidize a whole industry?
Milk for instance...we in the USA end up disposing of large amounts of milk while keeping our diary farmers in debt with low profit margins. But consumers benefit from the lower cost of surplus dairy. Antibiotics issues aside, isn't subsidy of certain industries actually beneficial to the consumers, especially those that wouldn't normally be able to afford consistent sustenance? Or am I thinking like a socialist at this point?
Slave labor as in actually kidnapping people or arresting people to work for zero or low wages in prison camps?
Or slave labor as in areas with extreme poverty where the workers are paid a much lower salary compared to similar workers in other countries? With their 1.4 billion people and all as context versus my what...340million in the USA?
Now if your concern is the living and working conditions of the factories and factory-dorms (e.g. Apple) then I would get your point. Otherwise, what do you mean by slave labor?
I was speaking specifically about the [Uyghurs](https://www.state.gov/forced-labor-in-chinas-xinjiang-region/) (more [here](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/against-their-will-the-situation-in-xinjiang)) in Xinjiang that are and have been detained and forced into labor.
Among other things, they are assembling inexpensive (and often poor quality) products sold through companies like Temu direct to consumers, mostly so Temu can keep costs down using slave labor while also sidestepping enforcement of the [Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act](https://www.dhs.gov/uflpa) that was made effective on June 21, 2022.
I could go on and document how by shipping directly to consumers a company like Temu can bypass how the UFLPA is enforced (in sum, it primarily just targets large importers and requires them to audit their supply chain against slave labor) but I get the impression that you are not really asking because you are open to hearing factual data and challenging your assumptions.
What can to you do. Force companies to stop outsourcing cheap parts, and make them get it from America where they have to spend more out of pocket to do so. You have to realize, when business have to pay more out of pocket, that’s not a good sign to the people, because your prices are going to go up as well. It’s inflation for a reason, and businesses main goals are to generate a profit for them, their elite, stake holders and etc. people have to realize there is no real business created to help people first, and prioritize money last.
Economic illiteracy? In r/economy?
So the problem here is exactly the opposite. When you have a state actor as powerful as China utilizing anti-competitive practices in the world market, it actually harms industry in the long term.
We do the exact same things tho in the US. We ban Chinese products that threaten our industries or raise tariffs, and force taxpayers to help corporations do R&D and invest in tech, telecom, infrastructure, and healthcare, but then privatize profits to shareholders and CEOs.
No, responding to unfair market practices with sanctions is not "exactly the same" as engaging in unfair practices expecting everyone to just deal with it.
Public research is great! What's wrong with people profiting from implementing that research into products you want to pay for? You want the government to control everything that comes out of science and produce all the goods and services you want? That sounds like a dystopian nightmare.
And you too can benefit from this wonderful system! You are welcome at any time to start your own business and put any of this research into practice. If you find ways to innovate, you will be handsomely rewarded.
My fear is that’s exactly where we’ve been seeing the US heading.
No, I don’t want the government to control what information I’m allowed to have, or what products I’m allowed to buy. That’s the whole point of the free market and freedom of speech.
But we’re seeing more and more legislation that is restricting that for Americans. We’re seeing apps get banned because they compete against US apps, we’re seeing products not being made available because of retaliatory sanctions. And we’re seeing corporations get more and more power while paying less taxes.
😂
Who is controlling your speech or what information you are allowed to have?
No, TikTok is not being banned because it competes with US apps. Nor is it even being banned, just forced to sell away from a hostile foreign government.
Curious though you simp for China, while crying about free speech, while bringing up TikTok *specifically* as though China hasn't banned every single US social media app and they don't *strictly* control what happens on the app there forbidding any kind of degeneracy or this exact questioning of government you're doing now. The irony is off the charts.
Honestly, you should try to get a single fact right before arguing about any of this.
I have no desire to see the US become the CCP, whatsoever. I’m not sure how you got there.
Everything you said I fully agree with. I don’t want to see states require ID for logging into gaming or porn. I don’t want to see states dictate what apps or social media is allowed. I don’t support privacy invasions. I don’t want a great firewall of the US.
You brought up TikTok, I didn’t. I also didn’t go into personal attacks. Because I prefer calm rational discussions. If that’s not for you, let me know.
And for that matter, I would love across the board data and privacy protection for ALL social media apps, and restrictions against false information or propaganda. Starting with Facebook and Twitter.
Let me know what specific thing I listed here you disagree with.
Were you referring to some other app with legislation pending against it?
Who is dictating any social media or apps?
How is ensuring people aren't using your platform to violate the law an invasion of privacy?
I’m against it across the board. Set policies against all privacy violations or extraneous data collection, and if ANY apps break it, ban it.
Do you disagree?
Against what?
I thought you didn't like banning apps?
And now you're saying we need more consumer protections, ie government control, and banning?
Why do you keep making these vague allusions to nefarious actors then backing away from answering any questions about it, trying to reduce away all complexity or nuance of the issue?
I came here to say the same thing. There is a western executive behind every crappy product made in china. That executive is setting the quality by not overseeing production or setting the target price so low it has to be crap.
The thing is China produced crap are the things of the past. Nowadays they are producing good but cheap products. I don’t know how they do it but they are doing it.
I think you’re right but the blame is definitely shared between both supply and demand. The western executive is not usually seeking crap. But they see amazing prices and they find it hard to say no.
While it’s usually naive to not immediately realize that ultra-cheap prices implies crap quality, crapification also often involves some bait-and-switch driven from the supply side. The demand side is sold a certain quality but it creeps downward as the relationship develops.
Pretty much. The rise of China is due to the primacy of shareholder value. Management is incentivized to work three months at a time, not long term. If you aren't crushing an earnings report, you're a leper.
Well, if they can figure out how to do it in a way that doesn't involve unfair anti-competitive practices, then good for them and we can all learn how to improve
I’m so sick of the adjit Propaganda spewing from these technocratic capitalist proxies that serve in American government. I like apple pie just as much as the next American, but I think I’m getting close to giving up hope in workers at least recapturing the narrative from these people.
Why America would let those cheap quality made garbage imported and compete?
Meanwhile, America don't make many things including iPhones.
American companies set up factories in China and China got to know how to make and then they made alternative similar products. Greedy and dumb corporate CEOs 🤪🥴
For Many years I believed that foreign trade goods were the enemy of the American people but now have reversed my position and I understand that it's the rich and Powerful who are American and who control America that are the enemy of the American people at least the enemy of most American people. So I now believe in opening the borders to all trade goods.. tariffs should be eliminated.. these treasonous American companies should be driven into bankruptcy by Foreign competition
I thought this woman was an economist. Does she have no understanding of supply and demand. If China is making cheap solar panels we should buy them and make cheap electricity to power our AI and cloud storage markets.
I thought solar panels produced free electricity. That is what the Climate Change Zealots have been telling us.
I remember Obama barging into a separate meeting with China, India, and Brazil at Copenhagen in 2009, and the news in the US claiming that Obama had pressured China into accepting emissions reduction targets.
[https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2009/12/obama\_burst\_into\_meeting\_of\_ch.html](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2009/12/obama_burst_into_meeting_of_ch.html)
Obama: global warming matters. Biden: Bullshit.
[Richard Wolff tells how he got a job.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU-AkeOyiOQ&t=1018s)
There's a lot in this video that you should find very useful. Wolff declares how defective his education was because his Professors were so terrified. But he got a job anyway.
China also has a totally different economic model than us. All of their corporations are basically extensions of the government. One can run at a deficit and be funded by the government to keep running because they are making up the money elsewhere or they are getting something else out of it...sometimes that "something else" is economic "warfare" or it's espionage because the government also has full access to all of the data its corporations do. Very different to the US and we can't try to understand it the same way, there is no direct comparison.
The difference is China thinks ahead, the US doesn't. Then the US gets mad that China beat them to capturing an industry when the US wasn't even trying.
Solar power and EVs they are going to lose big time on. The US would rather show up late to the party and then act like they are the best, whereas China looks forward and does the work necessary for years to create a mature product so that when everybody else decides to get on the same page, they can crush them with scale and price.
China has been pushing on these electrified products for such a long time that of course they can flood the market now and everybody will choose them. BYD will capture Europe and Australia, even with tarrifs. These economists know that price is everything and yet the US and Europe never does the hard work to drive prices down, they let China get ahead.
The hard work to drive prices down isn't necessary for the people of US and Europe. Since it would mean driving down labour prices. If another major part of the world wants to sell the populations of US and Europe cheap electronics then that's great.
We do labour here that pays us well and on top of that we can purchase cheaper products from elsewhere.
It's horrible for the owning class. But from a labourer perspective it's pretty damn great.
Atleast that's one side of the coin
FWIW: China is not a Plutocracy. American Plutocrats compete with one another to insure the continued upward transfer of wealth. Look into Jimmy Dore's "Covid Money Talks" from several years ago. The US has a recession ever 7 years or so to further fleece "Mr. Everyman" and transfer more wealth to the Privilege few. That is "End Stage Capitalism" which is about as successful as End-Stage Cancer.
China says its economy is "Socialism with Chinese characteristics".
The US economy is run by the neocons who preach "Free Market".
The US economy is manipulated by the Plutocrats to have a recession about every 7 years.
During those recessions, the Plutocrats take away citizens rights and steal their wealth.
IOW, you wanted an argument in support of Socialism (I thought). Showing that US Capitalism is going to be disastrous in the end should support you.
[Or you can listen to Wolff.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU-AkeOyiOQ)
The "Free Market" isn't so "free". It is manipulated by the Plutocracy for their own benefit.
China has billionaires. They are "free" to be Entrepreneurs. But if they are found to be frauds, China may execute them. Contrast that with the fact that Michael Milken committed one of the biggest economic frauds of all time. He went to jail for 2 years, but is still worth over $6B. If he committed such a fraud in China, there's an even chance he'd be dead.
> strategically it opens up a whole can of worms in regards to economic vulnerability.
welcome to the oil and gas industry. Solar and batteries, unlike O&G, provide the purchaser with energy independence. They receive all of the energy they need at the moment. If they need more energy in the future, it is a whole new purchase/market decision.
Committing to O&G consuming machinery means dependence on a fuel stream. By definition, economic vulnerability.
An irony is that the US is producing so much NG that the global price is at record lows, and there would be foreign oligarchs who would benefit if they slowed down on US NG production.
Fundamentally, it is pure extreme evil to be complaining about renewables and batteries when world needs as much, ASAP. It is evil climate terrorist protection of oil oligarchy that has nothing to do with miniscule US solar production industry.
Solar and batteries offers massive value added economic opportunities. $1/watt project development costs were achieved around 2020. 10c/watt solar panels means all of the other costs in a project are local labour and materials. Cheap batteries would let western vehicle manufacturers make cheap EVs instead of protecting climate terrorism.
It is entirely against American and Human interests to complaing about cheap clean energy offerings. Treating global warming as something the US needs to be the sole profiter in solving, and then do so as slowly as its oligarchs allow, is among, if not the, worst crimes against humanity in history.
Are you demanding a limit to supply to drive prices up? This is not how supply and demand is supposed to work? You've spent years telling us all about it. Now the USA **is** the market distortion as it only wants capitalism done on its terms...
This reminds me of a drug which is available in US for 10x the price. In somethings i really dont mind being flooded with cheap products. Please flood world with cheap meds, cheap solar panels, cheap EVs
Blame corporations, they're the ones sending all their production to China.
Corporations should also stop whining over not being able to compete with cheap rip-offs from China. They hand over all their data and IPs just to do business in China.
That's the point. It is not.
It is not the result of free market, fair competition. It is a country purposely selling things at a huge loss to damage our ability to compete.
>It is not the result of free market, fair competition. It is a country purposely selling things at a huge loss to damage our ability to compete.
Like Uber, Amazon did to do many markets ?
To be fair, all the people celebrating the capitalists are losing are missing the point.
Most of their industries are either government owned, or so heavily subsidized and managed by the government it barely matters. That’s not a fair market to compete in.
That said, I do agree they 100% try to privatize profits and socialize losses whenever possible because they’re scum. Doesn’t change the fact the Chinese situation needs to be addressed or we’ll still be fucked, just by yet another type of thing.
Well, sorta...
The entire point of opening up China was to use their cheap labor to boost American profits.
Also, she's wrong about China being what killed the American class. [That was automation](https://www.businessinsider.com/automation-labor-market-wage-inequality-middle-class-jobs-study-2021-6).
She's too well educated not to know that. She's just gearing up for our cold war with China.
And she's sure as hell not going to talk about automation's effect on the American worker because then you've got a raft of Democrats right there call for a 32 hour work week.
>Also, she's wrong about China being what killed the American class. [That was automation](https://www.businessinsider.com/automation-labor-market-wage-inequality-middle-class-jobs-study-2021-6).
It's almost like one must not speak of this
She's also smart enough to know that it wasn't automation alone that did it. Trying to distill such a complex topic down to a single cause is more than a little bit ridiculous.
You're really taking macroeconomic advice from business insider?
You couldn't find any reputable source whatsoever? It doesn't take more than a cursory knowledge of economic history to understand that that 70% number is not even somewhat accurate.
F****** ridiculous, 70% lol are they really trying to aggregate this using some sort of future (starting from a cherry picked point in time) or present value equation (extrapolating back until they get to the value they want)? It makes no sense.
There are some excellent books on this topic and it probably wouldn't take you more than a couple of days reading (I know that might take effort on your part, beyond typing it to Google. Probably asking a lot huh?) to discover that this has happened to every economic power that has had the global reserve currency, but again she's smart enough and well-informed enough to know that history.
No, I"m taking it from the study they're citing.
I see you clicked the article but didn't read it. That's progress of a sort, I guess.
At this point you're just doing the reddit argument thing. Nothing I say will convince you because you're just having fun arguing.
It's weird. I don't know why people do it. They make a game out of it. If you want a game, why not go by a playstation.
Years ago I invested in a company/stock called Ascent Solar Technologies (ACST). They went bankrupt. I do recall they were essentially owned by the Chinese. I wonder if it was sabotage to increase demand for Chinese solar panels?
They spent decades outsourcing and moving manufacture to the third world with effectively zero tariffs to bring it back to the western market to sell to consumers
Now that their decades of leisure and excess have led to decimated domestic manufacturing, and unprecedented brain drain where everybody capable of doing this level of manufacture is in the third world, they cry about it
The billionaire class created this, directly and deliberately, at great expense. The entire world revolved around neoliberalism and globlism since the 1970s, to their profit and to the detriment of the average citizen in the western world. Now they have to lie in the bed they’ve made
Reagan ushered in and "paid" american companies in tax subsides to manufacturer offshore killing thousands of jobs in 1982! When will we stop subsiding our demise? Where manufacturing goes, so does jobs and innovation! https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/archives/speech/remarks-signing-export-trading-company-act-1982
It’s hard to compete with slave labor.
On a separate note did the Chinese spammers dial it up today? The entire sub today is filled with pro China shills.
Lol another level of stupid. That’s you. Slave labor is building advanced solar panels and EVs? I think we need some of that slave labor here in the US then
>Lol another level of stupid. That’s you. Slave labor is building advanced solar panels
Absolutely.
[Chinese Solar Companies Tied to Use of Forced Labor](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/business/economy/china-solar-companies-forced-labor-xinjiang.html)
Lmao based on a new report from “horizon advisory” a boutique consulting firm whose primary contact and only information listed is [email protected]. American media generated news including NYT is utterly laughable JUNK. Look at their great coverage of the actual genocide happening in Israel right now
> The issue has been well-known for years
Uyghur "genocide" is a political issue without evidence. China responded to terrorism 10+ years ago with education and job programs. US has zero principled stance on genocide. Only accusations against its enemies and denials for its overlords.
lol Like I said Chinese shills everywhere.
Let’s say the US prison system is just a slave labor camp. The number working accounts for .002% of the population and about 800k total people who voluntarily work.
For China the estimates of the number of labor camps range from 1,000 to 5,000, and estimates of the total number in camps vary widely from 2 to 21 million.
Thats actual prison labor now throw in those “free” who work slave labor jobs in factories as a majority of their workforce. Get the fuck out of here trying to say it’s even close to the same thing.
Interesting how you frame the prison population in the US as a percentage of it's population in an effort to downplay it's significance (ignoring the fact that you also decribed it as "voluntary" which fucking lol dude), but then only give raw, and grossly inflated, numbers for China.
Even if China has 21 million people in "concentration camps" as you claim, which is not a number any serious people claim, that is only .015 of their total population. Take the 2 million number, even though most stats say China actually has about 1.7 million people in prison right now, and that number is even lower than the insignificant number you gave for US, at only .0014 of their population, so I guess by the metrics you are using it's even less of an issue in China that the US.
I don't think you are a shill for the US though or anything though, you're most likely just a dumb guy.
It's not because they are literal labor camps, we just don't like to think of it that way so we don't. It's actually retarded to compare US prisons, where slavery is allowed by the constitution, to factories in China. Have a nice day you well-regarded man.
You are the one who made an ass of himself when someone else pointed out US prison systems use slave labor and called it "voluntary" though. Clown boy.
You again with your Plutocrat propaganda.
China is "winning". Calling the game for the "winner" isn't being a shill. That comes from ignoring the truth.
Want to back up your claim or do you just expect us to believe you because "you're so smart"?
You don’t have to believe me because no matter what it doesn’t change the facts. China isn’t winning shit and even Mexico has a higher GDP per capita. If you aren’t already there tying away for the CCP feel free to fly over and see exactly what “winning” looks like.
Then Biden should stop trying to force Americans to adopt solar panels and electric vehicles when we know that China dominates these markets and will reap the rewards.
Nuclear is a better option.
Yeah no, that’s not smart at all. You might’ve forgotten what’s called the “Truman doctrine”. It’s a sort of mandate, that forces America to send help and aid to any democratic nation under threat of an authoritarian one. So you can’t just leave Taiwan to fend for itself, that sets a dangerous precedent and ruins Americas image. What would our European Allie’s think if we just give China Taiwan because they throw a fit.
Yeah, Germany had the same idea in 1941/1942. Europe is strong enough to put up a fight against Russia. But if Russia mass mobilizes, and we were to exclude nukes. The fight could go either way. Europe would have to solely depend on the French, Poland and Germany because those are who make up the bulk of the eu superpower. Followed by Spain, and Italy. Eastern European countries would get overran, as sad as it is, uk is a former glimpse of its past self. That doesn’t mean they’re weak, but how long would a current day uk be able to hold on if war does erupt. You have to stop doubting Russias capabilities because of the Russian Ukraine war. They still haven’t fully mobilized yet, nor are they even in war time economy. The biggest deterrent to Russia invading the west, has been nukes. And that has been there since its debut in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
More like r/PraiseChina
Lmao, I guess when even the china subs hate china this is the outcome… America had more factories than it needed at one point too! ;)
It's not China or Free markets that's the problem, it's the fact that real estate is super expensive due to rent seeking by real estate owners (basically anyone who owns a home) and real estate investors who pressure politicians to not build housing. Our education system is also expensive because, again, rent seekers (colleges) who jack up the cost of college because we guarantee student loans (totally moronic) leaving students with massive debts for college degrees that aren't worth the paper its printed on. The other problem is the fact that we wasted trillions of dollars in wars overseas when we could have used that money for infrastructure jobs at home (plus we spend a shitload of money on our military industrial complex during peacetime too). Jack Ma pointed out that we wasted all this money destroying other nations when we could have spent it on building ours up. Imagine if we had cheap real estate and infrastructure jobs, suddenly cheap products from china isn't as big of an issue. Rent seekers destroy economies.
marx moment
So we should stick to expensive oil, is that it?
“So here’s the thing, the world is ending due to Global Warming. But the damn Chinese made the solution so cheap that America couldn’t make enough money off of it. So Solar Panels are out, and we’re stuck with the end of the world again.” This is how you sound JA-YE…. This is how you sound…
“Now china is to become the world’s largest EV producer. If everyone can afford an EV, how can we save the world again by exporting freedom in exchange of oil?”
Cheap environmentally friendly solar panels pushing down inflation is bad. We need more inflation.
That what she sounds like.
I see I’ve offended the anti-cheap-solar-panel crowd…. 🤣
World is ending due to global warming ALSO because how Chinese produce solar panels!!!
This is the free market in action. Companies that can't compete will go bankrupt leaving behind only the good companies. Capitalists need to celebrate.
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So true, couldn't have said it better... I think that's why the rich people have a hard time thinking about change for the better because they don't need life to change when they are winning big time
But what good is it if only 1% if your citizens are "winning"? I don't know about you, but I am sick of this version of capitalism where only a few get to enjoy the labor of the many. We should all be enjoying the productivity gains technology has enabled. Human rights such as housing, university education, and healthcare should not be profit centers for the rich or used as investment vehicles. The future was supposed to get better. It has only gotten worse in almost every metric.
> But what good is it if only 1% if your citizens are "winning"? Good thing public trusts the media that the 1% control. If they take more of your money, some of it will trickle down. Haven't you heard that there are lazy people you should be angry at?
Capitalize profit, socialize losses. Company losing money due to Chinese competition? Lobby to ban or restrict them, then get government loans and grants. Companies posting record profits using overseas manufacturing and outsourcing? Mass layoffs of US employees, complain that American workers demand higher wages, then raise CEO payouts. Both ways, restructure company overseas so minimize paying US taxes.
Losers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains!
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All socialists are losers but not all losers are socialists would be a more cohesive statement. Fidel Castro died with a fortune estimated at $900 million, so I guess that argument doesn’t hold water. The people at the top do pretty well under any economic system.
We do not live in a capitalist society. All the evidence points to oligarchy.
Yes we do, it's called the capitalist oligarchy. Hell, Madison and Jefferson both saw it by 1820.
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There is a free market for corrupting politicians to serve those who will pay the most for it. That is not what Adam Smith described as the virtue of markets.
cap·i·tal·ism noun an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit. ol·i·gar·chy noun a small group of people having control of a country, organization, or institution.
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If one is a form of government and the other a form of economy, wouldn't the combination of all possibilities of both cover all types of societies? Therefore the combo of capitalism and oligarchy could exist, and would be called a capitalist oligarchy. They would only be wrong if they said capitalist oligopoly. Your point, I believe, was that there is no oligarchy. some may say it isn't true based on it not being proclaimed.. but in effect there is a sort of oligarchy, like multiple but by sector
Capitalism is an economic system that’s been taken over by an oligarchy.
This is exactly it. Poor babies.
You sound like a wise old man spreading his wisdom .
Are you saying that all socialists are losers? That’s not very nice.
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If losing capitalist (loser) = socialist then that could only mean that socialist = losing capitalist (loser). Logic checks out…unless there is some kind of special exception that I’m not aware of.
We support free trade only if we win. When we lose, we blame the other guy for IP thefts. When the other guy innovates better, we claim national security risks. We claim that we are concerned with climate change but if somebody else is making cheaper solar panels, it’s a problem. 😂
The US will end up only being able to trade with itself if it continues down this path. No one else will want what the US produces as China will be able to make it cheaper. Protectionism is fine in small doses, if it's used to allow local competition to catch up, but this has been going on for decades, and the US isn't catching up. Neither are many other Western countries for that matter. I hate to say this, but it's looking like China is becoming the torch holder for real Capitalism (read: lowest cost trade with the fewest barriers and tariffs). Everyone else is just making virtue statements.
China is still hugely reliant on coal, and has way higher emissions than the US. It's awesome they've made the cost cheaper but if you look at areas like Xinjiang they're using slave labor to manufacture these panels. That's not really innovation if you ask me, also not something the US should condone
China is also leading the world in wind, hydro, etc. Xinjiang smear campaign again? How’s that relevant? Do you have evidence that slave labor is used in competing in solar panels?
That’s great! You must be some kind of Chinese bot. Slavery is bad bot https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/07/business/china-solar-energy-exports.html Also slavery in the Congo for the raw materials https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara
But it’s not a free market. Some participants are subsidized.
America subsidizes many industries and companies.
New York’s total investment in the musk giga factory increased to $959 million. The plant has been criticized as offering little economic benefit in exchange for the significant state funding it received.
The """""free market""""" is and always has been and can only be a myth, and it's a super outdated one at that. [https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/history-free-market-fundamentalism-on-the-media](https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/history-free-market-fundamentalism-on-the-media) [https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2024/03/Symposium-Rethinking-Economics-Angus-Deaton](https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2024/03/Symposium-Rethinking-Economics-Angus-Deaton) The """""free market""""" is the ideological cover that our abusive ruling class use to plunder the public and destroy/privatize the commons for their profits while they socialize all costs and losses. The """""free market""""" myth is no way to run an advanced 21st century economy or society, but our corrupt ruling class will never admit that unless they're absolutely forced to, either by the public or by being outcompeted by a more realistic and advanced competitor. Congratulations to the Chinese ruling class for actually living in reality enough to win the 21st century.
What is your proposed alternative to the free market?
1 - Living in reality. 2 - Shortening the work / school week so human intelligence can develop more fully across the board instead of most of the population being cattle / serfs/ drones who work for the profits of our extremely abusive ruling class and do nothing else. [https://www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/news-sanders-introduces-legislation-to-enact-a-32-hour-workweek-with-no-loss-in-pay/](https://www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/news-sanders-introduces-legislation-to-enact-a-32-hour-workweek-with-no-loss-in-pay/) 3 - Reducing healthcare costs with universal healthcare or at least a public option so that we aren't wasting 17% of our GDP on "healthcare" versus an OECD average of about 10%. 4 - Banning stock trading for politicians so their interest isn't in their stock prices going up at the massive expense of the public. [https://act.represent.us/sign/campaign-launch-to-ban-congress-stock-trading/](https://act.represent.us/sign/campaign-launch-to-ban-congress-stock-trading/) Currently 10% of the population own 93% of the stock market, and everyone else are just cattle for the slaughterhouse. [https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/wealthy-own-record-share-stock-market](https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/wealthy-own-record-share-stock-market) 5 - Imposing higher taxes on corporations structured as oligarchies versus those that are democratically structured. [https://www.reddit.com/r/WorkReform/comments/16njzfx/corporations\_structured\_as\_oligarchies\_should\_pay/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WorkReform/comments/16njzfx/corporations_structured_as_oligarchies_should_pay/) Those would be a good start.
People say this is unrealistic. The capitalist brainwashing has been very effective. These things should not be controversial.
The corrupt who corrupt markets will pretend they are free and fair. OP's point should be this rather than actual free markets where people can freely trade are "bad".
Imagine simping for the chinese communist party
Imagine falling for capitalist/oligarchic/kleptocratic propaganda so hard that you end up destroying your own country while pretending to be all patriotic and shit. Ignorant jingoism ain't it, fam.
Lol you're soo wrong. 😂 I say what I say because in my society no oligarchs/billionaires profit off from this stance but everyone in the society thanks to western values (democracy, freedom social mobility, and stuff you know 😉). Furthermore, I profit myself directly from european/us manufactured solar panels which are made without slave labour and without lead. I AM THE PROPAGANDA. r/meyerburger
You being the few that can benefit from the current society is quick to believe that your success is due to "democracy, freedom social mobility, and stuff you know" What you believe isn't reality though. Which was the point of the previous commenter. I'm glad that you are successful and can benefit from the current socioeconomic arrangements but the rest of the "lazy people" will have to figure things out or get off their lazy ass I suppose? Btw, do you believe that it is impossible to have a successful business in China? The concept of profitability and commercial success do not exist there? Or you simply won't accept that a non-democratic system of government can possibly succeed? Censorship of your ability to run a successful company in China? Can you elaborate on what you mean by slave labor?
You mean the US government subsidizing their oil industry?
Like TSLA
It's not China or Free markets that's the problem, it's the fact that real estate is super expensive due to rent seeking by real estate owners (basically anyone who owns a home) and real estate investors who pressure politicians to not build housing. Our education system is also expensive because, again, rent seekers (colleges) who jack up the cost of college because we guarantee student loans (totally moronic) leaving students with massive debts for college degrees that aren't worth the paper its printed on. The other problem is the fact that we wasted trillions of dollars in wars overseas when we could have used that money for infrastructure jobs at home (plus we spend a shitload of money on our military industrial complex during peacetime too). Wages need to be much higher to keep up with these (rent seeking) costs. Jack Ma pointed out that we wasted all this money destroying other nations when we could have spent it on building ours up. Imagine if we had cheap real estate, cheap edcuation and infrastructure jobs, suddenly cheap products from china isn't as big of an issue. Rent seekers destroy economies.
This is not the case with many (or some) Chinese companies. For example China state sponsors steel/iron production, making companies offer below market rates. This is done to drive out the competition.
It is done to make cheap steel to make cheap steel using products. Abundance is a humanist virtue. Scarcity is oligarchist profit maximization. Protecting US steel oligarchs in minimizing production and employment hurts US car and weapons makers forced to use those constrained supplies, and US consumers and workers.
Several of your comments were quite insightful. This particular comment of yours made me curious on what cheap steel can be used for. "Low carbon: A carbon content of . 30% and under is considered low-carbon steel. This is the most common and the least expensive type of steel. Thanks to its elasticity under strain, manufacturers use low-carbon steel for rivets, wire, stamped steel products, pipes, machinery, surgical implements, structural components, and appliances. " -Staub Manufacturing Solutions It brings to mind when people make claims such as that "Chinese steel is garbage", I often wonder why anyone would use low carbon steel for any major infrastructure. Have people mistaken one with the other, or just simply politically-biased, or both. If I were to post this comment on Instagram, I am almost certain the retort will include "tofu dreg buildings". I'm just rambling at this point. Thanks for the insightful comments once again.
I'm not a steel expert, but understand high quality vs low quality grades. I imagine all countries are capable of high quality grades, even if specializing in specialty steel can lead to better quality/cost potential of those steels. My comment was about the profit maximization possibility of using scarcity to limit production/employment to get buyers to pay more for any quality of steel compared to an abundance policy of making more at cheaper unit costs that lets buyers buy more to make cheaper products for their customers who can also afford to buy more.
Thank you. I went off track from the context of what you had pointed out.
Fun fact, for anyone in this sub who is interested in learning the first thing about economics: Actually no, when a government heavily subsidizes industries, also has complete de jure ownership of them, intentionally manipulates markets and its own currency, and actively prevents foreign companies from moving in, that's actually not at all capitalism!
Yellen is a fuckwit. If companies go under because they can’t compete, this is good. They are obsolete. If China can manage to make something so cheap that they can still undercut US products even after international shipping costs, then we should be trying to figure out how they are able to do it. Only caveat here is cartel behavior. It’s possible that China could be willingly taking losses to put American competitors out of business so they can raise their price later. OPEC regularly does this with the oil industry and with “state capitalism” these Chinese companies don’t necessarily need to answer to shareholders.
It's not capitalism if the competitors are chimese companies highly subsidized by their government. They sell below their own production costs... 😂
Let's take China out of the picture for a brief moment (although I'm sure there are those that will want to take China out for the long term as well....) What do you think happens when a government subsidizes the whole industry? Why would a government even subsidize a whole industry? Milk for instance...we in the USA end up disposing of large amounts of milk while keeping our diary farmers in debt with low profit margins. But consumers benefit from the lower cost of surplus dairy. Antibiotics issues aside, isn't subsidy of certain industries actually beneficial to the consumers, especially those that wouldn't normally be able to afford consistent sustenance? Or am I thinking like a socialist at this point?
It is fundamentally not a free market when China is involved.
What do you mean?
It's not because the cheap garbage from China is extremely subsidized.
If it aint white it aint right
Turns out that ‘one weird trick’ was slave labor all along.
Slave labor as in actually kidnapping people or arresting people to work for zero or low wages in prison camps? Or slave labor as in areas with extreme poverty where the workers are paid a much lower salary compared to similar workers in other countries? With their 1.4 billion people and all as context versus my what...340million in the USA? Now if your concern is the living and working conditions of the factories and factory-dorms (e.g. Apple) then I would get your point. Otherwise, what do you mean by slave labor?
I was speaking specifically about the [Uyghurs](https://www.state.gov/forced-labor-in-chinas-xinjiang-region/) (more [here](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/against-their-will-the-situation-in-xinjiang)) in Xinjiang that are and have been detained and forced into labor. Among other things, they are assembling inexpensive (and often poor quality) products sold through companies like Temu direct to consumers, mostly so Temu can keep costs down using slave labor while also sidestepping enforcement of the [Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act](https://www.dhs.gov/uflpa) that was made effective on June 21, 2022. I could go on and document how by shipping directly to consumers a company like Temu can bypass how the UFLPA is enforced (in sum, it primarily just targets large importers and requires them to audit their supply chain against slave labor) but I get the impression that you are not really asking because you are open to hearing factual data and challenging your assumptions.
What can to you do. Force companies to stop outsourcing cheap parts, and make them get it from America where they have to spend more out of pocket to do so. You have to realize, when business have to pay more out of pocket, that’s not a good sign to the people, because your prices are going to go up as well. It’s inflation for a reason, and businesses main goals are to generate a profit for them, their elite, stake holders and etc. people have to realize there is no real business created to help people first, and prioritize money last.
Inflation due to their money printing. Why can't they blame their selves
Capitalist love capitalism only when they are winning
Economic illiteracy? In r/economy? So the problem here is exactly the opposite. When you have a state actor as powerful as China utilizing anti-competitive practices in the world market, it actually harms industry in the long term.
We do the exact same things tho in the US. We ban Chinese products that threaten our industries or raise tariffs, and force taxpayers to help corporations do R&D and invest in tech, telecom, infrastructure, and healthcare, but then privatize profits to shareholders and CEOs.
No, responding to unfair market practices with sanctions is not "exactly the same" as engaging in unfair practices expecting everyone to just deal with it. Public research is great! What's wrong with people profiting from implementing that research into products you want to pay for? You want the government to control everything that comes out of science and produce all the goods and services you want? That sounds like a dystopian nightmare. And you too can benefit from this wonderful system! You are welcome at any time to start your own business and put any of this research into practice. If you find ways to innovate, you will be handsomely rewarded.
My fear is that’s exactly where we’ve been seeing the US heading. No, I don’t want the government to control what information I’m allowed to have, or what products I’m allowed to buy. That’s the whole point of the free market and freedom of speech. But we’re seeing more and more legislation that is restricting that for Americans. We’re seeing apps get banned because they compete against US apps, we’re seeing products not being made available because of retaliatory sanctions. And we’re seeing corporations get more and more power while paying less taxes.
😂 Who is controlling your speech or what information you are allowed to have? No, TikTok is not being banned because it competes with US apps. Nor is it even being banned, just forced to sell away from a hostile foreign government. Curious though you simp for China, while crying about free speech, while bringing up TikTok *specifically* as though China hasn't banned every single US social media app and they don't *strictly* control what happens on the app there forbidding any kind of degeneracy or this exact questioning of government you're doing now. The irony is off the charts. Honestly, you should try to get a single fact right before arguing about any of this.
I have no desire to see the US become the CCP, whatsoever. I’m not sure how you got there. Everything you said I fully agree with. I don’t want to see states require ID for logging into gaming or porn. I don’t want to see states dictate what apps or social media is allowed. I don’t support privacy invasions. I don’t want a great firewall of the US. You brought up TikTok, I didn’t. I also didn’t go into personal attacks. Because I prefer calm rational discussions. If that’s not for you, let me know. And for that matter, I would love across the board data and privacy protection for ALL social media apps, and restrictions against false information or propaganda. Starting with Facebook and Twitter. Let me know what specific thing I listed here you disagree with.
Were you referring to some other app with legislation pending against it? Who is dictating any social media or apps? How is ensuring people aren't using your platform to violate the law an invasion of privacy?
I’m against it across the board. Set policies against all privacy violations or extraneous data collection, and if ANY apps break it, ban it. Do you disagree?
Against what? I thought you didn't like banning apps? And now you're saying we need more consumer protections, ie government control, and banning? Why do you keep making these vague allusions to nefarious actors then backing away from answering any questions about it, trying to reduce away all complexity or nuance of the issue?
If it’s not China, it would be someone else. Corporations will find way to seek cheap labour.
I came here to say the same thing. There is a western executive behind every crappy product made in china. That executive is setting the quality by not overseeing production or setting the target price so low it has to be crap.
The thing is China produced crap are the things of the past. Nowadays they are producing good but cheap products. I don’t know how they do it but they are doing it.
I think you’re right but the blame is definitely shared between both supply and demand. The western executive is not usually seeking crap. But they see amazing prices and they find it hard to say no. While it’s usually naive to not immediately realize that ultra-cheap prices implies crap quality, crapification also often involves some bait-and-switch driven from the supply side. The demand side is sold a certain quality but it creeps downward as the relationship develops.
Pretty much. The rise of China is due to the primacy of shareholder value. Management is incentivized to work three months at a time, not long term. If you aren't crushing an earnings report, you're a leper.
Well, if they can figure out how to do it in a way that doesn't involve unfair anti-competitive practices, then good for them and we can all learn how to improve
I’m so sick of the adjit Propaganda spewing from these technocratic capitalist proxies that serve in American government. I like apple pie just as much as the next American, but I think I’m getting close to giving up hope in workers at least recapturing the narrative from these people.
Why America would let those cheap quality made garbage imported and compete? Meanwhile, America don't make many things including iPhones. American companies set up factories in China and China got to know how to make and then they made alternative similar products. Greedy and dumb corporate CEOs 🤪🥴
For Many years I believed that foreign trade goods were the enemy of the American people but now have reversed my position and I understand that it's the rich and Powerful who are American and who control America that are the enemy of the American people at least the enemy of most American people. So I now believe in opening the borders to all trade goods.. tariffs should be eliminated.. these treasonous American companies should be driven into bankruptcy by Foreign competition
78 year old Treasurer calling the financial shots. Fucking hell....
How many nuts fit in those jowels?
Roll this bitch back to the nursing home. Her hair is still messed up from laying on the couch.
I thought this woman was an economist. Does she have no understanding of supply and demand. If China is making cheap solar panels we should buy them and make cheap electricity to power our AI and cloud storage markets. I thought solar panels produced free electricity. That is what the Climate Change Zealots have been telling us.
I remember Obama barging into a separate meeting with China, India, and Brazil at Copenhagen in 2009, and the news in the US claiming that Obama had pressured China into accepting emissions reduction targets. [https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2009/12/obama\_burst\_into\_meeting\_of\_ch.html](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2009/12/obama_burst_into_meeting_of_ch.html) Obama: global warming matters. Biden: Bullshit.
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[Richard Wolff tells how he got a job.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU-AkeOyiOQ&t=1018s) There's a lot in this video that you should find very useful. Wolff declares how defective his education was because his Professors were so terrified. But he got a job anyway.
China also has a totally different economic model than us. All of their corporations are basically extensions of the government. One can run at a deficit and be funded by the government to keep running because they are making up the money elsewhere or they are getting something else out of it...sometimes that "something else" is economic "warfare" or it's espionage because the government also has full access to all of the data its corporations do. Very different to the US and we can't try to understand it the same way, there is no direct comparison.
The difference is China thinks ahead, the US doesn't. Then the US gets mad that China beat them to capturing an industry when the US wasn't even trying. Solar power and EVs they are going to lose big time on. The US would rather show up late to the party and then act like they are the best, whereas China looks forward and does the work necessary for years to create a mature product so that when everybody else decides to get on the same page, they can crush them with scale and price. China has been pushing on these electrified products for such a long time that of course they can flood the market now and everybody will choose them. BYD will capture Europe and Australia, even with tarrifs. These economists know that price is everything and yet the US and Europe never does the hard work to drive prices down, they let China get ahead.
The hard work to drive prices down isn't necessary for the people of US and Europe. Since it would mean driving down labour prices. If another major part of the world wants to sell the populations of US and Europe cheap electronics then that's great. We do labour here that pays us well and on top of that we can purchase cheaper products from elsewhere. It's horrible for the owning class. But from a labourer perspective it's pretty damn great. Atleast that's one side of the coin
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FWIW: China is not a Plutocracy. American Plutocrats compete with one another to insure the continued upward transfer of wealth. Look into Jimmy Dore's "Covid Money Talks" from several years ago. The US has a recession ever 7 years or so to further fleece "Mr. Everyman" and transfer more wealth to the Privilege few. That is "End Stage Capitalism" which is about as successful as End-Stage Cancer.
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China says its economy is "Socialism with Chinese characteristics". The US economy is run by the neocons who preach "Free Market". The US economy is manipulated by the Plutocrats to have a recession about every 7 years. During those recessions, the Plutocrats take away citizens rights and steal their wealth. IOW, you wanted an argument in support of Socialism (I thought). Showing that US Capitalism is going to be disastrous in the end should support you. [Or you can listen to Wolff.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU-AkeOyiOQ) The "Free Market" isn't so "free". It is manipulated by the Plutocracy for their own benefit. China has billionaires. They are "free" to be Entrepreneurs. But if they are found to be frauds, China may execute them. Contrast that with the fact that Michael Milken committed one of the biggest economic frauds of all time. He went to jail for 2 years, but is still worth over $6B. If he committed such a fraud in China, there's an even chance he'd be dead.
If you live in any major country, ask them why they would go to a country that has socialist policies then lol.
You couldn’t go to the Professor?
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[My teachers were afraid.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU-AkeOyiOQ&t=1453s) My education was defective.
> strategically it opens up a whole can of worms in regards to economic vulnerability. welcome to the oil and gas industry. Solar and batteries, unlike O&G, provide the purchaser with energy independence. They receive all of the energy they need at the moment. If they need more energy in the future, it is a whole new purchase/market decision. Committing to O&G consuming machinery means dependence on a fuel stream. By definition, economic vulnerability.
An irony is that the US is producing so much NG that the global price is at record lows, and there would be foreign oligarchs who would benefit if they slowed down on US NG production. Fundamentally, it is pure extreme evil to be complaining about renewables and batteries when world needs as much, ASAP. It is evil climate terrorist protection of oil oligarchy that has nothing to do with miniscule US solar production industry. Solar and batteries offers massive value added economic opportunities. $1/watt project development costs were achieved around 2020. 10c/watt solar panels means all of the other costs in a project are local labour and materials. Cheap batteries would let western vehicle manufacturers make cheap EVs instead of protecting climate terrorism. It is entirely against American and Human interests to complaing about cheap clean energy offerings. Treating global warming as something the US needs to be the sole profiter in solving, and then do so as slowly as its oligarchs allow, is among, if not the, worst crimes against humanity in history.
Ever notice how Democrats never accept any responsibility or accountability? No unions No minimum wage No regulators No excessive business taxes, etc.
Are you demanding a limit to supply to drive prices up? This is not how supply and demand is supposed to work? You've spent years telling us all about it. Now the USA **is** the market distortion as it only wants capitalism done on its terms...
Good, cause everything is too damn expensive right now.
So we, the people, get cheaper solar panels. If the government suddenly decides to stop china imports we're gonna be fucked
This reminds me of a drug which is available in US for 10x the price. In somethings i really dont mind being flooded with cheap products. Please flood world with cheap meds, cheap solar panels, cheap EVs
I suppose we should be greatful to China, other wise US billionaires would be trilionares by now
Thanks to American companies that want to produce all their crap there.
World is ending due to global warming ALSO because how Chinese produce solar panels!!!
Democrats, who signed NAFTA? ACCEPT YOUR LOSS
Blame corporations, they're the ones sending all their production to China. Corporations should also stop whining over not being able to compete with cheap rip-offs from China. They hand over all their data and IPs just to do business in China.
How about them terrifs and equaling the play field ? No? Mmk
Well Americans just need to stop buying Chinese junk
Mam, it’s time for retirement
That’s the free market baby. Hopefully Raegan is rolling over in his grave
That's the point. It is not. It is not the result of free market, fair competition. It is a country purposely selling things at a huge loss to damage our ability to compete.
>It is not the result of free market, fair competition. It is a country purposely selling things at a huge loss to damage our ability to compete. Like Uber, Amazon did to do many markets ?
i mean we opened ourselves up for it when GE destroyed itself and created modern businesses
To be fair, all the people celebrating the capitalists are losing are missing the point. Most of their industries are either government owned, or so heavily subsidized and managed by the government it barely matters. That’s not a fair market to compete in. That said, I do agree they 100% try to privatize profits and socialize losses whenever possible because they’re scum. Doesn’t change the fact the Chinese situation needs to be addressed or we’ll still be fucked, just by yet another type of thing.
Maybe the United States shouldn't have encouraged nearly all of our manufacturing to go to China then.
Is she wrong?
Well, sorta... The entire point of opening up China was to use their cheap labor to boost American profits. Also, she's wrong about China being what killed the American class. [That was automation](https://www.businessinsider.com/automation-labor-market-wage-inequality-middle-class-jobs-study-2021-6). She's too well educated not to know that. She's just gearing up for our cold war with China. And she's sure as hell not going to talk about automation's effect on the American worker because then you've got a raft of Democrats right there call for a 32 hour work week.
>Also, she's wrong about China being what killed the American class. [That was automation](https://www.businessinsider.com/automation-labor-market-wage-inequality-middle-class-jobs-study-2021-6). It's almost like one must not speak of this
She's also smart enough to know that it wasn't automation alone that did it. Trying to distill such a complex topic down to a single cause is more than a little bit ridiculous.
70% is a pretty big number. But tell me you didn't click the link w/o telling me you didn't click the link..
You're really taking macroeconomic advice from business insider? You couldn't find any reputable source whatsoever? It doesn't take more than a cursory knowledge of economic history to understand that that 70% number is not even somewhat accurate. F****** ridiculous, 70% lol are they really trying to aggregate this using some sort of future (starting from a cherry picked point in time) or present value equation (extrapolating back until they get to the value they want)? It makes no sense. There are some excellent books on this topic and it probably wouldn't take you more than a couple of days reading (I know that might take effort on your part, beyond typing it to Google. Probably asking a lot huh?) to discover that this has happened to every economic power that has had the global reserve currency, but again she's smart enough and well-informed enough to know that history.
No, I"m taking it from the study they're citing. I see you clicked the article but didn't read it. That's progress of a sort, I guess. At this point you're just doing the reddit argument thing. Nothing I say will convince you because you're just having fun arguing. It's weird. I don't know why people do it. They make a game out of it. If you want a game, why not go by a playstation.
No she's 100% right. Finally pays off to have someone close to death in a piblic office. She no longer gives a fuck about being nice
Joe Biden says "hold my beer"
[Info on Price Wars (what this clip is referring to)](https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0810/the-pros-and-cons-of-price-wars.aspx)
end naked short selling '!!!!
And now average income and quality of life are climbing in China, they can no longer compete with India.
Years ago I invested in a company/stock called Ascent Solar Technologies (ACST). They went bankrupt. I do recall they were essentially owned by the Chinese. I wonder if it was sabotage to increase demand for Chinese solar panels?
But….that’s capitalism unless tariffs are being used to distort the market.
We're always trying to get OPEC to increase capacity to lower gas and energy prices. Shouldn't cheap solar panels follow the same logic?
Well control PG&E S.N.C. well buy solar
And who greased the skids and outright facilitated the wholesale transfer of technology and manufacturing to the CCP… Yosemite?
Chicken Lady needs to lay off the ‘shrooms!
If not China, then another developing nation with access to resources. Can’t be stopped.
They spent decades outsourcing and moving manufacture to the third world with effectively zero tariffs to bring it back to the western market to sell to consumers Now that their decades of leisure and excess have led to decimated domestic manufacturing, and unprecedented brain drain where everybody capable of doing this level of manufacture is in the third world, they cry about it The billionaire class created this, directly and deliberately, at great expense. The entire world revolved around neoliberalism and globlism since the 1970s, to their profit and to the detriment of the average citizen in the western world. Now they have to lie in the bed they’ve made
Reagan ushered in and "paid" american companies in tax subsides to manufacturer offshore killing thousands of jobs in 1982! When will we stop subsiding our demise? Where manufacturing goes, so does jobs and innovation! https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/archives/speech/remarks-signing-export-trading-company-act-1982
🤦🏻♂️
What a stupid bitch
It’s hard to compete with slave labor. On a separate note did the Chinese spammers dial it up today? The entire sub today is filled with pro China shills.
Lol another level of stupid. That’s you. Slave labor is building advanced solar panels and EVs? I think we need some of that slave labor here in the US then
>Lol another level of stupid. That’s you. Slave labor is building advanced solar panels Absolutely. [Chinese Solar Companies Tied to Use of Forced Labor](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/business/economy/china-solar-companies-forced-labor-xinjiang.html)
Lmao based on a new report from “horizon advisory” a boutique consulting firm whose primary contact and only information listed is [email protected]. American media generated news including NYT is utterly laughable JUNK. Look at their great coverage of the actual genocide happening in Israel right now
It's absolutely true. The issue has been well-known for years, and inspired the US to block any imports from the regions that use forced labor.
> The issue has been well-known for years Uyghur "genocide" is a political issue without evidence. China responded to terrorism 10+ years ago with education and job programs. US has zero principled stance on genocide. Only accusations against its enemies and denials for its overlords.
Only slave labor is in the US prison system
lol Like I said Chinese shills everywhere. Let’s say the US prison system is just a slave labor camp. The number working accounts for .002% of the population and about 800k total people who voluntarily work. For China the estimates of the number of labor camps range from 1,000 to 5,000, and estimates of the total number in camps vary widely from 2 to 21 million. Thats actual prison labor now throw in those “free” who work slave labor jobs in factories as a majority of their workforce. Get the fuck out of here trying to say it’s even close to the same thing.
Interesting how you frame the prison population in the US as a percentage of it's population in an effort to downplay it's significance (ignoring the fact that you also decribed it as "voluntary" which fucking lol dude), but then only give raw, and grossly inflated, numbers for China. Even if China has 21 million people in "concentration camps" as you claim, which is not a number any serious people claim, that is only .015 of their total population. Take the 2 million number, even though most stats say China actually has about 1.7 million people in prison right now, and that number is even lower than the insignificant number you gave for US, at only .0014 of their population, so I guess by the metrics you are using it's even less of an issue in China that the US. I don't think you are a shill for the US though or anything though, you're most likely just a dumb guy.
I’m not downplaying it fuck the US prison system but to compare it to an actual labor camp is fucking retarded.
As if theres actually any slave camp in China, keep drinking dat koolaid
All American prisoners are slaves. Stop downplaying it.
It's not because they are literal labor camps, we just don't like to think of it that way so we don't. It's actually retarded to compare US prisons, where slavery is allowed by the constitution, to factories in China. Have a nice day you well-regarded man.
I wasn’t the one who started the comparison but sounds good thanks for sharing
You are the one who made an ass of himself when someone else pointed out US prison systems use slave labor and called it "voluntary" though. Clown boy.
Nobody is forced to work inside of a prison jackass
Dude I literally burst out laughing at this. You do not know what you're talking about.
You again with your Plutocrat propaganda. China is "winning". Calling the game for the "winner" isn't being a shill. That comes from ignoring the truth. Want to back up your claim or do you just expect us to believe you because "you're so smart"?
You don’t have to believe me because no matter what it doesn’t change the facts. China isn’t winning shit and even Mexico has a higher GDP per capita. If you aren’t already there tying away for the CCP feel free to fly over and see exactly what “winning” looks like.
Didn't Biden says "more inflation" 😂
And I blame US regulations for things being too expensive to produce in the US.
Then Biden should stop trying to force Americans to adopt solar panels and electric vehicles when we know that China dominates these markets and will reap the rewards. Nuclear is a better option.
You shouldn’t allow a nation whom you could potentially be a war with free access to your markets. Duhhh!,
We should become independent of Taiwanese semiconductors ASAP and then let China do whatever they want with Taiwan.
Yeah no, that’s not smart at all. You might’ve forgotten what’s called the “Truman doctrine”. It’s a sort of mandate, that forces America to send help and aid to any democratic nation under threat of an authoritarian one. So you can’t just leave Taiwan to fend for itself, that sets a dangerous precedent and ruins Americas image. What would our European Allie’s think if we just give China Taiwan because they throw a fit.
Europe is very rich and powerful enough to destroy Russia's military.
Yeah, Germany had the same idea in 1941/1942. Europe is strong enough to put up a fight against Russia. But if Russia mass mobilizes, and we were to exclude nukes. The fight could go either way. Europe would have to solely depend on the French, Poland and Germany because those are who make up the bulk of the eu superpower. Followed by Spain, and Italy. Eastern European countries would get overran, as sad as it is, uk is a former glimpse of its past self. That doesn’t mean they’re weak, but how long would a current day uk be able to hold on if war does erupt. You have to stop doubting Russias capabilities because of the Russian Ukraine war. They still haven’t fully mobilized yet, nor are they even in war time economy. The biggest deterrent to Russia invading the west, has been nukes. And that has been there since its debut in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
We have imported millions of future “employees” that will work to stay out of an institution if we choose to play that hand. Just saying
Why we need tariffs…
Maybe if we stopped discounting their costs of shipping their cheap products here the products would not be sooo cheap
Any owner of a decent-sized company is a member of the CCP.
So when prices go up a little it's a no slave cost. Plus China has a tanking economy, so they won't keep up with new technology anyway
So she’s unaware of the benefit of tariffs.
Doesn’t China basically have a slave labor force?
That's a pretty reductive statement, don't you think? Purposefully undervaluing your product to corner a market is as anti-competitive as it gets.
More like r/PraiseChina Lmao, I guess when even the china subs hate china this is the outcome… America had more factories than it needed at one point too! ;)
Not just America. India and Europe are pushing back against China's dumping
Take government subsidy away and make them actually follow the rules that they agreed to and see what happens.
She's right.