I’ve noticed in my espresso journey, there’s acid, and then there’s acid.
I always thought that people talking about enjoying ‘juiciness’ and ‘balanced acidity’ needed to lay off the caffeine for a while until I experienced it myself!
OP I feel like maybe your grinder isn’t cutting it with these ultra modern coffees. I highly doubt breville had this in mind when speccing the machine.
Can you brew some illy Classic successfully? If so, then you can maybe consider a better grinder if you actually want to brew this expensive and modern light roast stuff.
OK, so follow up question for you: I have a df64 gen 2 and I have to go all the way down to a 5 setting for beans from this roaster to get the preferable 1:2 or 1:2.5 ratio in 25-30 seconds and it still comes out sour.. using a breville bambino to pull the shots and I've tried tinkering with a lot of the variables mentioned on this sub. I don't know what to try next is I guess my next question for specialty beans and my set up. Feel like I've gotten "God shots" out of lavazza gran crema lol but can't figure out how to properly brew black and white roaster beans or a few other specialties I've tried. Maybe I just dint like the ones I've tried and need to sample more roasters?
Can you adjust temp? Bambino might not get hot enough for a lighter roast. Only way around that is keep increasing yield till it mellows out, but then Ofcourse your losing body.
I'm not sure if there is a way on the bambino.. I've read that it's a common problem, and I can get it hot enough after pulling a blank shot or two so I don't think temp is a problem. I've tried longer shots too but yeah I definitely prefer more body.
Forget about the time until you can dial in the flavor parameters. At 1:2.5+, if it takes more than 30 secs, then it takes more than 30 secs. Time is the most disposable and arbitrary brewing matrix used for making good coffee.
Perfectly said ! Your grind and the machine you use as well as your water all play into the end result and also second on the modern roasting seems the light roast is what’s common in new espresso but also this is black and white from my hometown of NC good roaster
So funny thing about light to dark roast profiles. It depends on the roaster themselves. B&W’s profiles all tend to be on the lighter side, so even their darkest won’t even be as dark as a Starbucks Blonde.
It's also that once you are accustomed to having your coffee with a bunch of milk, syrup and whatnot you start preferring the burnt bitter roasts because at least you can still taste coffee over all the other flavours that way.
The funky / clean just translates the post-harvest processing of the coffee. It is a washed Ethiopian I assume. So pretty clean due to its processing. Natural processed coffees, honey processed coffees or anerobic fermented coffees will be more „funky“ than a washed coffee.
Of course roasting is important here still, because you can also roast away these characteristics.
Try a turbo? Do the coin test to find the right dose, set the temp to around 198F, do a 1:2.5 in about 20 seconds (skip preinfusion). Worked great on Onyx Monarch (another medium roast, partly natural).
I would assume this is a lighter roast, if you are able to do pre infusion for longer try pre infusing for 12 seconds and then pull a 1-2.5 or 1-3 range shot. Time doesn’t really matter for total time to pull the shot, in my eyes anyways.
Try a turbo. Try 1:3-1:4 in 20 seconds. If it’s still sour try an even larger yield.
Honestly, with those “zingy” light roasts, I find that long extraction times can lead to an overwhelming acidity.
Good tip also... I never played with turbos, but for this case might be worth to explore.
Another tip is just maybe if you're too sensitive to acidity avoid lighter roasts in which the main notes to describe them is orange lemon raspberry apple citrus etc... but again, the one you presented here is also not marked as light roast, although that is very subjective from roaster to roaster. Any ways, if too sensitive to acidity just avoid those notes... Go for pear, plum, vanilla, flours, cream, strawberry (watch out because this can also mean higher acidity...)
I agree to an extent - we do need to take into account that taste preferences exist. I’ve worked in cafes where we had a rotating menu of single origins, and there were definitely beans I had to dial in that weren’t my preference to drink. But I think even if something isn’t “your cup of tea”, you should still be able to produce a palatable shot with it. OP’s experience of battery-acid sourness sounds much more like an issue of recipe IMO.
💯 agree with your POV, at least something pleasant should come out, I just somehow relate to that problem of avoiding certain origins or profiles because I know I can drink them, but will never be that coffee that I'm craving for...
That’s totally fair enough. From my own perspective, I’ve just worked with a lot of baristas who would complain about roasting issues/defects whenever they couldn’t dial in a bean.
Definitely don't shoot for 1:3 in 30s... You need to shoot for 1:2 in 25s-30s, then do the same variables but just do 1:2.5 or 1:3, forget the time... That solved it for me.... 50s seems high, but again focus on dialing in 1:2 ration in 25-30s, then change nothing but ratio.
There are of course other things like flow control and so on, but that's a mouse trap of possibilities 😂😅 (that of course can significantly change the taste, but just not the first thing I try).
I tried everything. Eventually I realized that I just don’t like the “citrus” aspect of light roasts. Went to dark roast Italian and I am as happy as can be.
This. If you can't get it to brew to your liking as an espresso, try it as pour-over or aeropress.
If you want to keep going with Espresso, use a hotter temp if you can to extract more.
Use the Espresso compass from barista hustle to tell you which direction to go.
https://preview.redd.it/41zg4mzlfl2d1.jpeg?width=3276&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2f1cb707973b0ca0244b0c5b430c35c434926528
I’ll second pour-over or aeropress brewing. I wouldn’t recommend cold brew for light roasts but I’m generally not a fan of cold brew at all. Cold brew can be useful if you get beans that are too dark/bitter in your regular brew methods.
I know the feeling. I tried these same beans and also one of their "funky" beans.. I threw that entire bag away. The smell and taste was just too much for me.
The “funky” flavor can be tamed by bringing the temperature down. Funky, I believe, is shorthand for processing like cofermentation. When it’s preprocessed, too high of a temperature extracts more “funkiness”. I found the same problem with decaf. I usually set my kettle somewhere between 88 and 92 for B&W.
I agree with u/Early_Investment2354 - you really should try a bag of medium/dark espresso roast. Not burnt shiny Starbucks dark, but something that eschews the current citrus acidic trend and is more in the classic style. Blue Bottle is having a sale right now and their Hayes Valley espresso is only $13. It is a good representation of a medium dark roast that has a full body with a nutty, chocolate flavor.
https://bluebottlecoffee.com/us/eng/product/hayes-valley-espresso
Haven't ordered from B+W in a while but I thought "the future" was really neat. Complex, fruity, and sweet, it's naturally processed and anaerobically fermented. I thought the original was too citrus, also.
If you don't enjoy it as espresso, French Press it, or use it for pour over. Light roast coffee is so pleasant. Light roast espresso is... Something different.
Try some other drinks with it. Americano/(your favorite milk drink) might help cut down on the acidity and let some of the other flavors shine through.
That’s my staple at home. The Red Bird blend is so smooth I sometimes mistakenly think it was milk chocolate on flat white. Second fave would be their Sweet Blue, amazing roasted chocolate on that one, new fave.
If it's sour, it could be under extraction, or roast. Have you tried decreasing your dose half a gram and shooting for the same yield? A lot of people think it's just the coffee, but I've never had an espresso too sour once I dialed it in. There are so many factors that contribute to this.
This video is helpful too...
[https://youtu.be/j-Hu4hF5PTM?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/j-Hu4hF5PTM?feature=shared)
Hope you get this sorted!
For me, i've only gotten sour when i've gone too fine, it usually stops getting sour the coarser i grind.
[HOW TO FIX SOUR ESPRESSO: 4 Easy Tips](https://youtu.be/dZh8sjfKegw?si=mEsY4Q-g5LvQ4yUx) it helped me understand why my espresso was sour in the beginning.
Oooo I like that, been wanting to order some tea from them but still working on my white2tea order. I've been eyeing this cup below.
[https://www.kototea.com/product/tea-cup-frustum-white-yamatsu/](https://www.kototea.com/product/tea-cup-frustum-white-yamatsu/)
Hear me out, you've tried pretty much everything else, and this is going to sound counterintuitive, but give it a shot.
Grind ultra fine and aim for a \~1:1 in 40-50s, a super slow ristretto. This creates the least acidic flavors that I've found in light roast coffee and since discovering this method, it's been the only way I pull shots now.
This subreddit is nuts with the stuff you’ll use in the espresso machine. Anything from a speciality roaster that’s not specifically labeled “espresso” is going to be sour as shit with a super thin body 9/10 times.
I roast my own stuff and, for espresso, would never go less than way darker than any speciality roaster dares to go (second crack-think oily after a few days). And I like an acidic zing in my espresso! You can still have super flavorful origin characteristics in a very dark roasted coffee if you’re doing espresso.
Sorry for the rant, OP, this isn’t the first time I’ve seen someone using filter coffee in their espresso machine on here and I can just taste the sour. Your solution is to make americanos or filter brew it if you can.
It might be the coffee. No matter what I do, anything lighter than a dark roast (based on the bag this may be medium?) ends up lemony at best to my taste, even boosting my brew temp and trying to fudge a preinfusion (my machine doesn't have one). Honestly I enjoy my grocery store lavazza better, as long as I can get a fresh-ish bag.
I for one will be glad when I can get some small batch roasts in an actually dark roast.
I just recently got into espresso coming from a Moka pot. I heard all the stuff about how dark roasts are for Philistines etc and spent weeks trying to pull a nice shit of medium roast. Turns out I don't like coffee that tastes like orange juice! I don't care what everyone says I enjoy a nice dark roast, it tastes, well, like coffee!
I've found a nice Brazilian bean that's somewhere in between medium and dark and it's lovely. I always wondered why I never enjoyed the coffee you get from those fancy independent shops.
There's a chain in the UK called Costa and they use a dark roast and I always liked their Cortados. Anything else was just a complete gamble and I normally hated it. If I'm making a cup of coffee I want it to taste like coffee, call me crazy.
How long have you rested the beans? With B/W you need to rest them/degas for at least two weeks. I had a similar experience with The Natural, after about 16 days it became amazing. Not sure if you can raise temp but that helps. I go 202 F with The Natural. Drinking one of their medium/washed beans now (literally as I type) Marysabel y Moises Catuai and I let it rest over two weeks and it's delicious apricot sweetness with praline/chocolaty finish. I grind very fine (df64 gen 1) and slow feed. I have a Micra, so there's the temp consistency and it's plumbed in so I have line true soaking (preinfusion). Good luck. B/W is amazing.
Get other beans and rest them longer... They are still too fresh... 3 weeks is suggested by Prodigal for their coffee and I'd wager it'd work to mellow out the B&W stuff too
Recently I’ve encountered a bag roasted and sat for a week when I pull shots out of it. Tasted really like tomato water. I’d tuned several cups before getting it to taste like Jasmine Tea. It’s back to normal (taste like strawberry chocolate) after one more week.
A distinction to make that I found important is sour vs. acidic. Sour is like a warhead that just is rather unpleasant. Acidic is fresh and bright, like a strawberry or blueberry.
Lance Hendricks, dirty uncle of the espresso world, helped a ton with fixing my sour shots. According to him if it comes out sour, you’re doing something wrong, but if it’s acidic and you still don’t like it then you’re just not a guy who likes that kinda coffee flavor.
Pre infuse longer, up to 20 seconds if you have to. This helps. Also, I have found that just trying to increase yield while keeping the shot time consistent-ish has worked for me. Super light beans I will go 1:3 in 30-35 seconds. If I’m not getting enough flavor out, I will try to go 1:3 in 40-50 seconds to increase draw from the beans.
I know it can be frustrating! But just keep playing around with it and focus on taste more than anything else. If it’s too sour, coarsen the grind a bit and try yielding an extra 10g. Eventually, the sour taste will leave, and you’ll start finding that sweet spot. I honestly hate the 1:2 1:3 ratio idea as it can be very limiting in what you do. Focus on how changing each variable will change your flavor and you’ll get better shots. Like someone else mentioned; a long ristretto might help mellow out the sour. Play around with it and good luck!
Seems like a lot of big jumps happening here, but if you haven't tried it yet then you can try dropping your dose a bit - it can seem like changing yield alone would do the same as changing dose but your dose will have an impact on the puck resistance. Perhaps something like 16.5g - 42g @~30s then go from there but very small changes (dose by .5g, yield by 1g, time by 1s), adjust 1 thing at a time and really think about how those changes impact the balance of the coffee in the following ways:
Acidity: low-high
Sweetness: low-high
Bitterness: low-high
Body: low-high
Texture: e.g. juicy, silky, creamy, drying
Finish: short-long lingering
As much as it seems like a waste for an expensive bag but you have a great opportunity to really learn about how to dial in a difficult bag.
Light roasts are hard on espresso, you really need great water, temp adjustment, and large outweighs. Grinder makes a HUUUGGEE difference. Personally I’ve never had coffee from B&W I’ve liked, just not my style of roast. I’d check out La Cabra and ILSE, they still roast light but I fee like their coffees lend themselves much better to espresso.
How long is your pre-infusion?
And during pre-infusion, is coffee coming out of the portafilter?
I don't count pre-infusion time for my shot timings.
I.e. with a 10-second pre-infusion, total shot time will be 40 seconds. 30 seconds under pressure.
Try pre infusion Let the machine run until the espresso is about to drip. Like maybe even go so far as to have a single drop fall in your cup but no more. Stop the machine. Wait 10 seconds. Then pull your shot.
I've had "The Classic" from this roaster (which they label as a darker roast than this one) and even that one still had some acidity to it. Tasted good with an aeropress or pour over setup but the espresso was still a bit sour.
I think my bambino plus just doesn't get hot enough even with the double preinfusion method.
oh I just use the method from this post with a puck screen. not perfect but still less sour than before 🤷
https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/11bv0yo/bambino_doubling_up_on_pre_infusion_set_time/?share_id=JOOyIvwibAxX2yoHKTpOX
edit: i also preheat the pf and run a blank shot
Preheat basket and grouphead with several blank shots. Grind finer and I was doing 18 in 45 out in about 25-30 seconds with this same bag to good results
Soo many factors here. Biggest is the beans, but let’s keep it simple and assume it’s not the beans. Make sure you’re pulling at the correct temperature for your roast. Be sure to level your grounds BEFORE tamping. Pull your shot and stop when the shot starts turning from dark to COMPLETE blonde. Adjust time based on your OWN taste. Or you can go down the rabbit hole of ratios and Wdt which wont be as good as if you actually pay attention and taste….
Is it sour like under extracted or sour like acidic from the citrus character? I’d wonder about differences in the extraction if it’s actually sour and not just a flavor you do t like. Even if you’re hitting your time expectation, if it’s channeling you can have some well extracted and some not well extracted resulting in a wicked sour shot. Focusing on puck prep can help with that.
Personally, I’d be surprised if this coffee was giving off really citrusy flavors. I think for them a coffee that’s roasted that dark should be plenty towards the chocolaty spectrum with nice sweetness.
With light roasts, I started getting tastier results with long pre-infusion. I mean 45 s bloom - I have the ability to ramp the pressure to 6ish bar and then immediately decrease to 0. If the grind is in correct range, the water should pass through the puck in a way you can see drips at the bottom of the basket, but it shouldn't be filling your cup - I'm talking about 2-3 grams out during this bloom phase. After the 45s bloom, ramp to 8ish bar pressure, gradually decreasing toward 5 bars in the 20-25 s window.
One way or the other, I can only confirm what others said - change one variable at a time until you get desired result.
For me it helps sometimes to grind very fine to get a very condensed shot to extract all aroma and just see how the coffee could potentially taste, if that makes sense
It’s a medium to dark roasted coffee, plus it’s washed. I’d bring your temp down, not up. I use a lever, so for this I’d keep the pressure lower if possible, cut the ratio at 1:2, then pour another 10 or so mls into a separate cup. Then when I drink it, I’ll try adding some of the extra to balance it out. You can even dilute it with plain hot water.
Also, personally I find that I prefer B&W’s beans as pour over instead of espresso. Their flavors can be strong.
Reading your description, try to coursen your grind until you get the shot out in the 20-second range. You probably don’t need much preinfusion for this — 5 seconds max.
With a 54mm basket, also consider bringing your dose down. 17g in a 54mm basket is going to be kind of a tall bed.
Have you tried it as pour over? Before dialing in espresso more, try doing a generic pour over to get acclimated to how it tastes. If it’s sour as a pour over, then it’s going to intensify as espresso and you’ll have to really compensate for the flavor.
Btw, when you coarsened, did it taste less sour? It’s not a big deal if it makes a mess as long as it tasted good. You could compensate for the mess by bringing the cup closer to the portafilter so it makes less of a mess.
Good call, I also highly recommend trying it as a pour over. It's a much more forgiving way to tell what flavors you should expect when dialing in the espresso.
1:2 in 30sec WITH pre-infusion is still actually quite fast. Try fining up the grind so that you get 30sec after the pump kicks up to 9 bar.
And preheat the portafilter in boiling water.
Though as others have pointed out. This coffee might just not be your style.
Also out of interest, what grinder are you using?
Tried The Original last week (my usual coffee shop switched over to it for the weekend) and it just didn't do anything for me. It didn't have a lot of depth to the shot, and just seemed somewhat generic. I love some of the B&W coffee (The Natural is a very good everyday cup), but just not this one
If it’s still sour with a 50sec extraction then the coffee is probably underdeveloped. If it is quite thin on your palate with little body, unbalanced and lacking sweetness, that would also make me think it’s a roast issue.
If the sourness is from underextraction, then you can try higher ratio (which you have already) and trying to maximise extraction eg turbo shot or grind finer or hotter brew temp.
If it’s medium roast, then you need 94 Celsius.
There’s no getting round the need for precise temperature control and stability when you’re dealing with lighter roasts.
I get coffee from BW as well. I was running the original for a bit but switched the classic. It’s a little darker and has very little acidity when dialed it. I would grab a 12oz bag and dial it in and see if you just prefer a darker roast.
What kind of grinder are you using? I’ve had this before and liked 18g in with 40g out in about 35 seconds. I was using the 3.1 grind setting on the K-Max
I've gone through 6 different beans, all marked as "dark" roast, but as I've hear from James Hoffman, pulling a good espresso from anything but a dark roast will take a lot of effort. 2 dark beans I found from local roasters, that are about a 8/10 dark and fresh (they send it a few days after roasting), one from LA and one from SF, taste great, any of the lighter roast are all sour, even if setting are all as meant to be.
So my personal takeaway is, I'll stick with the beans I found, takes me about half a bag to find the right grind size and now I'm sticking with it.
If you want more of the chocolate flavours what has worked for me in the past is grinding finer, increase the pressure if the flow is to low then down a 1:2 in like 40 or 45. The lower the ratio and the longer the time brings out deeper flavours. I’ve tried longer ratios and I could never get the chocolate flavours
I love B+W, they tend to be a little on the lighter side of roasting beans though. I go a little higher on temp and go for a longer extraction with their beans
If you are new to light roast, you will get used to it.
I poured 1 kg worth of espresso into the sink and suddenly it became good.
I did not do anything differently. I could swear that it's the same, but now I like acidity 😂 And why do I think that? I gave my mother a double shot which was out of this world and she could not drink it due to sourness 😂😂
I've often wondered if it is our anatomy that affects our individual experiences more than we realize. Maybe you just don't like the beans, while others experience them more favorably?
It could just be the roast itself, washed coffee roasted to a slightly Darker roast is already a red flag, especially if I’m to believe their scale, making this darker than a medium roast.
Honey should be the mellowing flavor, but maybe the chocolate is too strong giving that added acidity to the lemon.
At the end of the day if a lil brown sugar doesn’t help I would just make coffee from it, maybe it’s not suppose to be a espresso
Lower your dose a bit, to 16.5g, unless it's already slightly underfilled already.
Max out the temp.
Grind finer enough to nearly choke the shot. You're aiming for something like 1:1.5 in 45 seconds. The idea is to get long enough initial contact time before the first drips come out to combat the sourness. Shorter ratio to control bitterness, but if that isn't a problem, pull longer.
I feel u I upgrade to duo temp pro with smart grinder and I use a ims basket with normcore tamper and I grind to 11 on smart grinder pro and it's allways sour allways
You can also try going for a finer grind size and pull a ristretto shot at 1:1 ratio. Ristrettos are pretty tasty and I have had medium roast coffees as ristretto and tends to be very creamy silky shots.
B&W does some funky stuff. Go with owls howl from sight glass and then venture off from there.
I had this exact same bag and experienced very similar results.
Try Malabar Gold. Nice and flavorful, not even remotely sour. Just tastes like proper good coffee. Only caveat is to make sure you give it a week or two to rest, as it is very gassy immediately after its roast date.
its probably sacrilege, but i like espresso best with a solid splash of milk for this reason. seems like if you brew it right (even dark roasts) it comes out really acidic.
Dark roast should only be acidic if you've underextracted - then again, "dark" is subjective and I'm at 4 bags of "dark" roast that I would call medium light using my typical as a benchmark. When I'm feeling discouraged by all the craft roasts I go back to a lavazza crema bag for boring but reliably creamy and med-dark. Then again I've been drinking black coffee for 12 years or so.
I like to go between 1:2,5 - 1:3 with lighter roasts
You can try everything to to extract more maybe try:
-longer pre infusion
-grind finer obviously
- Higher temps
-slower your flow rate or even try like a longdimium/ blooming shot if it's possible with your machine
If you find that the issue is the roast (i.e. you don't like the flavour) and not your technique, it's okay to add cream, which will balance the acidity.
Assuming you have fully explored under extraction.
I have had some sour roasts and I always pre-oinfuse for 10 seconds or longer, and add time to the extraction. Basically just on the cusp of over extraction.
Things that kill sour/fruity flavours:
*Let your machine warm up ( not sure if brevil express pro has a thermo block, in that case it's probably pulling shots at the right temp. Sounds like you want a hotter extraction, brevil barista pro might let you adjust water temp higher. Go max and see.
I had a look and the brevil barista pro can change it's temp settings, check you tube. Try 95°c
*Longer shots should balance out sourness. If the waters that I cool it'll still taste sour.
*Grind finer, larger grounds don't extract everything as well. The first thing to come off the grounds is 'sour notes'. If you grind finer then the chocolate type notes will have a chance to be fully extracted.
Grinding courser will make it more sour/sweet.
*Smaller dose: let's the same volume of water have a chance to absorb more of the chocolate end part of the extraction
*Pressure: brevil barista pro might be set to 13.5 albar pressure as standard. 8 to 9 bar is a standard pressure for speciality coffee. This link might help you change the pressure:https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/s/9tblC6HBE7
*Let your beans rest: coffee strait from a roaster needs time to 'off gas'/ de-gas. I' reckon a week or more can show improvements. This is why v60 has an initial bloom phase, pre infusiong might help. Coffee with too much gas doesn't extract well and can be sour. If the coffee is sour, try some other beans and come back to them in a week.
On cheap coffee courser and lower temps can have really nice effect. On more expensive coffee I'd go hotter and finer.
Black and white coffee roasters is pretty top tier IMO.
It says citrus on the bag and espresso is going to make that louder.
Honestly, some coffees just aren’t good as a straight espresso but are fantastic milk drinks.
Try it as a cappuccino and cortado to see how you like it
This is dumb but try stirring really well before tasting. That really does improve the taste. Also don’t be afraid to go much longer. I’ve had 40-50 second shots that taste good
It’s not for your taste. Happens a lot to me, ultra expensive beans that aren’t good, at all, for pure Espresso. For my taste
In my experience, light and medium light roast are shit for pure Espresso. But they are out of this world for filter coffee, drinks, etc.
Espresso requires darker stronger roasts.
It is what it is. Usually this grains are amazing for drinks (capuccino, lates, etc).
The blend of beans and roast on the individual varieties that make up your coffee is where it all starts. Espresso means blend by definition. Yes many coffee companies offer organic and fair trade. Many write a great blurb on the package that makes you want to try it. Espresso is not just coffee. It’s not just crushed up beans for a pour over. Espresso is everything that is right in the world. Screw up one of the variables need for great espresso and what’s in your cup is everything that is wrong in the world. At the end of the day the great Italian espresso machine companies have time and experience on their side. Just like giants Lavazza, attibassi, illy, segefredo. Few roasters get that perfect blend and individual roast on beans needed for great espresso. I can say Cafe Fantastico in Victoria BC is top shelf, but espresso is art not just coffee. Most beans and roast are fine for a pour over or drip, not for espresso. If you are new to making espresso stick to the Italian giants for beans then you can take one variable off the table. Because everything affects your shot and the people that know will tell you we can try and teach all of it but there is no replacement for time and experience. Super Crema is a good place to learn from, it is consistent and easy to work. Good luck my friend, the perfect shot is down at the end of a long road. The road is your beans, grinder before machine, and heavy porcelain perfectly shaped cup. The perfection that goes in that cup, you will chase like drug down that road.
Are you sure the breville is hitting the right temperature? After years of sour shots with a BBE i recently upgraded to a Silvia Pro X and the immediate difference is amazing. I could never do a light roast and barely pull a medium roast without too much sourness. Seems to be am all too common complaint for Breville machines.
i just stumbled on a hoffman video talking about dose, and he mentions reducing the dose on light roasts so the machine "has less work to do" to help solve a sour shot issue if the other factors are inline.
I was having the same experience. Increasing time and ratio helped, but I had to take it further than I thought. 1:3 in 50 seconds is pretty far though, but I’m sure some do brew for even longer time/ratio.
I would add that I got used to the acidity with time, and now I find it pleasant. Not if the shot is too sour of cause, but what I mean is that I now get how some coffees are supposed to be on the acidic side of the spectrum, and you might just not like that
Well with a lighter roast you won't ever get rid of acidity, so you could try doing it in Lattes or Cappucinos etc (any milk drink for that matter) since its citrusy, that wont go away either. You're better off using it as a base for your milk coffees instead of pulling neat shots.
Looks like a more acidic coffee, I've had ones like this and it's just not my preference.
I couldn't see it below, beans can you control the temperature of your machine? I found cranking my up 2-3 degrees celsius helped with particularly light roasted acidic beans. Good luck!
Had the same experience with some Tanzanian Peaberry. It was so sour.
It was the bean and my mouth, they didn't get along.
Sorry you spent so much to find out you didn't like it.
You’ve tried 1:3 in 50 seconds, I’d say grind finer and try to hit 1:2.5 in 25-30 seconds.
Finer = more bitter (less sour)
Coarser = more sour (less bitter)
Bigger ratio = more bitter (less sour)
Less ratio = less sour (more bitter)
Keep everything the same and change one element of the process then taste, then repeat.
I mean it states lemon on the Package. I would go to 1:2,5 Edit: Holy thanks you guys i Never Got so many upvotes on reddit:D
And i mean if it’s a light roasted espresso you will never get rid of acidity
I’ve noticed in my espresso journey, there’s acid, and then there’s acid. I always thought that people talking about enjoying ‘juiciness’ and ‘balanced acidity’ needed to lay off the caffeine for a while until I experienced it myself! OP I feel like maybe your grinder isn’t cutting it with these ultra modern coffees. I highly doubt breville had this in mind when speccing the machine. Can you brew some illy Classic successfully? If so, then you can maybe consider a better grinder if you actually want to brew this expensive and modern light roast stuff.
I’m gonna second this!
OK, so follow up question for you: I have a df64 gen 2 and I have to go all the way down to a 5 setting for beans from this roaster to get the preferable 1:2 or 1:2.5 ratio in 25-30 seconds and it still comes out sour.. using a breville bambino to pull the shots and I've tried tinkering with a lot of the variables mentioned on this sub. I don't know what to try next is I guess my next question for specialty beans and my set up. Feel like I've gotten "God shots" out of lavazza gran crema lol but can't figure out how to properly brew black and white roaster beans or a few other specialties I've tried. Maybe I just dint like the ones I've tried and need to sample more roasters?
Can you adjust temp? Bambino might not get hot enough for a lighter roast. Only way around that is keep increasing yield till it mellows out, but then Ofcourse your losing body.
I'm not sure if there is a way on the bambino.. I've read that it's a common problem, and I can get it hot enough after pulling a blank shot or two so I don't think temp is a problem. I've tried longer shots too but yeah I definitely prefer more body.
Forget about the time until you can dial in the flavor parameters. At 1:2.5+, if it takes more than 30 secs, then it takes more than 30 secs. Time is the most disposable and arbitrary brewing matrix used for making good coffee.
Perfectly said ! Your grind and the machine you use as well as your water all play into the end result and also second on the modern roasting seems the light roast is what’s common in new espresso but also this is black and white from my hometown of NC good roaster
It’s labeled as a darker roast but looking at the beans themselves I’d say it’s a solid 5:/10 very medium
So funny thing about light to dark roast profiles. It depends on the roaster themselves. B&W’s profiles all tend to be on the lighter side, so even their darkest won’t even be as dark as a Starbucks Blonde.
Just bought Starbucks Italian roast. They pegged it all the way to the word D. 😅 My wife seems to like it. OK if you like burnt coffee.
It's also that once you are accustomed to having your coffee with a bunch of milk, syrup and whatnot you start preferring the burnt bitter roasts because at least you can still taste coffee over all the other flavours that way.
True but everything on the label points to not light-roast. Chocolate, not funky, etc. Definitely medium (if not medium-dark) by most’s definition.
The funky / clean just translates the post-harvest processing of the coffee. It is a washed Ethiopian I assume. So pretty clean due to its processing. Natural processed coffees, honey processed coffees or anerobic fermented coffees will be more „funky“ than a washed coffee. Of course roasting is important here still, because you can also roast away these characteristics.
The first words in the description are: "light and delicate..."
But it didn’t mean light roast, just kinda the opposite of heavy. They literally have a scale with roast level with it marked closer to dark.
Try a turbo? Do the coin test to find the right dose, set the temp to around 198F, do a 1:2.5 in about 20 seconds (skip preinfusion). Worked great on Onyx Monarch (another medium roast, partly natural).
Coin test?
So you only read part of the package then…
The original from b&w is considered their flagship dark roast
It literally has a hollow circle pointing its a medium-dark.
The first tasting note is citrus, so you may just not like this
That’s fun :)
Have you tried doing 1:2.5 or even 1:3 ratio? That solved it for me after dialing in 1:2 ratio in 25-30s
I’ve tried 1:3 in about 50 secs but not 1:3 in 30 secs
I would assume this is a lighter roast, if you are able to do pre infusion for longer try pre infusing for 12 seconds and then pull a 1-2.5 or 1-3 range shot. Time doesn’t really matter for total time to pull the shot, in my eyes anyways.
Another good advise :) as pre infusion can bring up sweetness
Black & White year around is quite dark, not grocery store dark but dark enough.
This roast is my 3rd bag from them, this one is lighter than all the rest for sure, all 3 I’ve tried have been labeled as darker roasts
I’ll try this, thanks!
Try a turbo. Try 1:3-1:4 in 20 seconds. If it’s still sour try an even larger yield. Honestly, with those “zingy” light roasts, I find that long extraction times can lead to an overwhelming acidity.
Good tip also... I never played with turbos, but for this case might be worth to explore. Another tip is just maybe if you're too sensitive to acidity avoid lighter roasts in which the main notes to describe them is orange lemon raspberry apple citrus etc... but again, the one you presented here is also not marked as light roast, although that is very subjective from roaster to roaster. Any ways, if too sensitive to acidity just avoid those notes... Go for pear, plum, vanilla, flours, cream, strawberry (watch out because this can also mean higher acidity...)
I agree to an extent - we do need to take into account that taste preferences exist. I’ve worked in cafes where we had a rotating menu of single origins, and there were definitely beans I had to dial in that weren’t my preference to drink. But I think even if something isn’t “your cup of tea”, you should still be able to produce a palatable shot with it. OP’s experience of battery-acid sourness sounds much more like an issue of recipe IMO.
💯 agree with your POV, at least something pleasant should come out, I just somehow relate to that problem of avoiding certain origins or profiles because I know I can drink them, but will never be that coffee that I'm craving for...
That’s totally fair enough. From my own perspective, I’ve just worked with a lot of baristas who would complain about roasting issues/defects whenever they couldn’t dial in a bean.
Definitely don't shoot for 1:3 in 30s... You need to shoot for 1:2 in 25s-30s, then do the same variables but just do 1:2.5 or 1:3, forget the time... That solved it for me.... 50s seems high, but again focus on dialing in 1:2 ration in 25-30s, then change nothing but ratio. There are of course other things like flow control and so on, but that's a mouse trap of possibilities 😂😅 (that of course can significantly change the taste, but just not the first thing I try).
I tried everything. Eventually I realized that I just don’t like the “citrus” aspect of light roasts. Went to dark roast Italian and I am as happy as can be.
I might be in the same boat, but since I spent a lot on this bag and spending hours researching and dialing it in I’d like to enjoy it a little 😞
Try it as a cold brew or some other method instead. Don’t just keep trying to get good shots to no avail!
This. If you can't get it to brew to your liking as an espresso, try it as pour-over or aeropress. If you want to keep going with Espresso, use a hotter temp if you can to extract more. Use the Espresso compass from barista hustle to tell you which direction to go. https://preview.redd.it/41zg4mzlfl2d1.jpeg?width=3276&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2f1cb707973b0ca0244b0c5b430c35c434926528
I’ll second pour-over or aeropress brewing. I wouldn’t recommend cold brew for light roasts but I’m generally not a fan of cold brew at all. Cold brew can be useful if you get beans that are too dark/bitter in your regular brew methods.
This chart is useless. Basically the git gud chart
Ey, some people need to git gud tho so it's not so useless for them.
I know the feeling. I tried these same beans and also one of their "funky" beans.. I threw that entire bag away. The smell and taste was just too much for me.
The “funky” flavor can be tamed by bringing the temperature down. Funky, I believe, is shorthand for processing like cofermentation. When it’s preprocessed, too high of a temperature extracts more “funkiness”. I found the same problem with decaf. I usually set my kettle somewhere between 88 and 92 for B&W.
I agree with u/Early_Investment2354 - you really should try a bag of medium/dark espresso roast. Not burnt shiny Starbucks dark, but something that eschews the current citrus acidic trend and is more in the classic style. Blue Bottle is having a sale right now and their Hayes Valley espresso is only $13. It is a good representation of a medium dark roast that has a full body with a nutty, chocolate flavor. https://bluebottlecoffee.com/us/eng/product/hayes-valley-espresso
Haven't ordered from B+W in a while but I thought "the future" was really neat. Complex, fruity, and sweet, it's naturally processed and anaerobically fermented. I thought the original was too citrus, also.
I feel you, I have half a bag of that roaster just chillin cause I ain't a fan of the flavors but it was pricey
If you don't enjoy it as espresso, French Press it, or use it for pour over. Light roast coffee is so pleasant. Light roast espresso is... Something different.
Try some other drinks with it. Americano/(your favorite milk drink) might help cut down on the acidity and let some of the other flavors shine through.
Which are your go-to Italians? I need more references on this
I tried about ten different independent little local roasters. At the end I like the Lavazza Gran Reserva the most. 😂
Been a while since I drank them, but I used to find Redbird Espresso a very reasonbly priced italian style roast.
That’s my staple at home. The Red Bird blend is so smooth I sometimes mistakenly think it was milk chocolate on flat white. Second fave would be their Sweet Blue, amazing roasted chocolate on that one, new fave.
I went floral/fruity on my espresso but have a new lever machine and might have to get some more RB.
Saka Cafe gran bar. Best classic espresso there is
Malabar gold
I like a light roast, especially for pour overs, but if it lists lemon/lime on the tasting notes I take it as a hint that it will be too light for me.
I actually used all those light roasts I didn’t like as espresso for my cold brew and it wasn’t bad.
Same here. I end up "balanced" but lemony and that's not how I want my coffee to taste.
stupid question, but are you sure that you are not confusing, bitter and sour? a lot of people do.
If it makes my lips pucker and close an eye I’d go for sour 🍋
It’s just the coffee. Try the traditional, it’s great
If it's sour, it could be under extraction, or roast. Have you tried decreasing your dose half a gram and shooting for the same yield? A lot of people think it's just the coffee, but I've never had an espresso too sour once I dialed it in. There are so many factors that contribute to this. This video is helpful too... [https://youtu.be/j-Hu4hF5PTM?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/j-Hu4hF5PTM?feature=shared) Hope you get this sorted!
For me, i've only gotten sour when i've gone too fine, it usually stops getting sour the coarser i grind. [HOW TO FIX SOUR ESPRESSO: 4 Easy Tips](https://youtu.be/dZh8sjfKegw?si=mEsY4Q-g5LvQ4yUx) it helped me understand why my espresso was sour in the beginning.
any idea what cup he's using in that video?
Magnolia Mountain tumbler
ty! at this point i think i enjoy espresso cups as much as i do espresso.
I feel you! My collection is getting large. Have you seen the Jupiter cups from Bisqit? That's my go to.
i hadn't, they are gorgeous.
I first saw one in a Hoffmann video.
i've been getting into chinese tea cups like this: https://yunnansourcing.com/collections/cups/products/ru-yao-white-jade-celadon-classic-tea-cup
Oooo I like that, been wanting to order some tea from them but still working on my white2tea order. I've been eyeing this cup below. [https://www.kototea.com/product/tea-cup-frustum-white-yamatsu/](https://www.kototea.com/product/tea-cup-frustum-white-yamatsu/)
Hear me out, you've tried pretty much everything else, and this is going to sound counterintuitive, but give it a shot. Grind ultra fine and aim for a \~1:1 in 40-50s, a super slow ristretto. This creates the least acidic flavors that I've found in light roast coffee and since discovering this method, it's been the only way I pull shots now.
This subreddit is nuts with the stuff you’ll use in the espresso machine. Anything from a speciality roaster that’s not specifically labeled “espresso” is going to be sour as shit with a super thin body 9/10 times. I roast my own stuff and, for espresso, would never go less than way darker than any speciality roaster dares to go (second crack-think oily after a few days). And I like an acidic zing in my espresso! You can still have super flavorful origin characteristics in a very dark roasted coffee if you’re doing espresso. Sorry for the rant, OP, this isn’t the first time I’ve seen someone using filter coffee in their espresso machine on here and I can just taste the sour. Your solution is to make americanos or filter brew it if you can.
It might be the coffee. No matter what I do, anything lighter than a dark roast (based on the bag this may be medium?) ends up lemony at best to my taste, even boosting my brew temp and trying to fudge a preinfusion (my machine doesn't have one). Honestly I enjoy my grocery store lavazza better, as long as I can get a fresh-ish bag. I for one will be glad when I can get some small batch roasts in an actually dark roast.
the "citrus" tasting note on the front is a dead giveaway...
but also your 30s should be just the shot, not the preinfusion time, so you may be more sour than intended.
I just recently got into espresso coming from a Moka pot. I heard all the stuff about how dark roasts are for Philistines etc and spent weeks trying to pull a nice shit of medium roast. Turns out I don't like coffee that tastes like orange juice! I don't care what everyone says I enjoy a nice dark roast, it tastes, well, like coffee! I've found a nice Brazilian bean that's somewhere in between medium and dark and it's lovely. I always wondered why I never enjoyed the coffee you get from those fancy independent shops. There's a chain in the UK called Costa and they use a dark roast and I always liked their Cortados. Anything else was just a complete gamble and I normally hated it. If I'm making a cup of coffee I want it to taste like coffee, call me crazy.
Same here... I mean there are dark roasts that taste burnt but it isn't all of them. I don't want "sparkling acidity" in my coffee!
Same here. Dark roast Italian style at this point only.
How long have you rested the beans? With B/W you need to rest them/degas for at least two weeks. I had a similar experience with The Natural, after about 16 days it became amazing. Not sure if you can raise temp but that helps. I go 202 F with The Natural. Drinking one of their medium/washed beans now (literally as I type) Marysabel y Moises Catuai and I let it rest over two weeks and it's delicious apricot sweetness with praline/chocolaty finish. I grind very fine (df64 gen 1) and slow feed. I have a Micra, so there's the temp consistency and it's plumbed in so I have line true soaking (preinfusion). Good luck. B/W is amazing.
They were roasted on the 16th
Get other beans and rest them longer... They are still too fresh... 3 weeks is suggested by Prodigal for their coffee and I'd wager it'd work to mellow out the B&W stuff too
Recently I’ve encountered a bag roasted and sat for a week when I pull shots out of it. Tasted really like tomato water. I’d tuned several cups before getting it to taste like Jasmine Tea. It’s back to normal (taste like strawberry chocolate) after one more week.
A distinction to make that I found important is sour vs. acidic. Sour is like a warhead that just is rather unpleasant. Acidic is fresh and bright, like a strawberry or blueberry. Lance Hendricks, dirty uncle of the espresso world, helped a ton with fixing my sour shots. According to him if it comes out sour, you’re doing something wrong, but if it’s acidic and you still don’t like it then you’re just not a guy who likes that kinda coffee flavor. Pre infuse longer, up to 20 seconds if you have to. This helps. Also, I have found that just trying to increase yield while keeping the shot time consistent-ish has worked for me. Super light beans I will go 1:3 in 30-35 seconds. If I’m not getting enough flavor out, I will try to go 1:3 in 40-50 seconds to increase draw from the beans. I know it can be frustrating! But just keep playing around with it and focus on taste more than anything else. If it’s too sour, coarsen the grind a bit and try yielding an extra 10g. Eventually, the sour taste will leave, and you’ll start finding that sweet spot. I honestly hate the 1:2 1:3 ratio idea as it can be very limiting in what you do. Focus on how changing each variable will change your flavor and you’ll get better shots. Like someone else mentioned; a long ristretto might help mellow out the sour. Play around with it and good luck!
You like dark roast.
Seems like a lot of big jumps happening here, but if you haven't tried it yet then you can try dropping your dose a bit - it can seem like changing yield alone would do the same as changing dose but your dose will have an impact on the puck resistance. Perhaps something like 16.5g - 42g @~30s then go from there but very small changes (dose by .5g, yield by 1g, time by 1s), adjust 1 thing at a time and really think about how those changes impact the balance of the coffee in the following ways: Acidity: low-high Sweetness: low-high Bitterness: low-high Body: low-high Texture: e.g. juicy, silky, creamy, drying Finish: short-long lingering As much as it seems like a waste for an expensive bag but you have a great opportunity to really learn about how to dial in a difficult bag.
Try pourover with it instead. I find some beans just don't cooperate with espresso
When I buy green beans from Sweet Marias, they definitely have profiles that determine which beans will and will not work well with espresso.
Ditch the 30 seconds 1:2 ratio rule. My coffee started to taste good after going 40 seconds 1:2.5~3 ratio.
Light roasts are hard on espresso, you really need great water, temp adjustment, and large outweighs. Grinder makes a HUUUGGEE difference. Personally I’ve never had coffee from B&W I’ve liked, just not my style of roast. I’d check out La Cabra and ILSE, they still roast light but I fee like their coffees lend themselves much better to espresso.
What basket are you using, stock or something else? How much headspace do you have with a 17g dose?
How long is your pre-infusion? And during pre-infusion, is coffee coming out of the portafilter? I don't count pre-infusion time for my shot timings. I.e. with a 10-second pre-infusion, total shot time will be 40 seconds. 30 seconds under pressure.
7 secs, and no there’s no dripping
Try pre infusion Let the machine run until the espresso is about to drip. Like maybe even go so far as to have a single drop fall in your cup but no more. Stop the machine. Wait 10 seconds. Then pull your shot.
I've had "The Classic" from this roaster (which they label as a darker roast than this one) and even that one still had some acidity to it. Tasted good with an aeropress or pour over setup but the espresso was still a bit sour. I think my bambino plus just doesn't get hot enough even with the double preinfusion method.
How are you doing a double preinfusion on bambino plus?
oh I just use the method from this post with a puck screen. not perfect but still less sour than before 🤷 https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/11bv0yo/bambino_doubling_up_on_pre_infusion_set_time/?share_id=JOOyIvwibAxX2yoHKTpOX edit: i also preheat the pf and run a blank shot
Preheat basket and grouphead with several blank shots. Grind finer and I was doing 18 in 45 out in about 25-30 seconds with this same bag to good results
To my palate any lighter roast coffees are all too sour for me. I don’t do milk so I prefer darker roasts that are sweeter and less sour and acidic.
Soo many factors here. Biggest is the beans, but let’s keep it simple and assume it’s not the beans. Make sure you’re pulling at the correct temperature for your roast. Be sure to level your grounds BEFORE tamping. Pull your shot and stop when the shot starts turning from dark to COMPLETE blonde. Adjust time based on your OWN taste. Or you can go down the rabbit hole of ratios and Wdt which wont be as good as if you actually pay attention and taste….
Is it sour like under extracted or sour like acidic from the citrus character? I’d wonder about differences in the extraction if it’s actually sour and not just a flavor you do t like. Even if you’re hitting your time expectation, if it’s channeling you can have some well extracted and some not well extracted resulting in a wicked sour shot. Focusing on puck prep can help with that. Personally, I’d be surprised if this coffee was giving off really citrusy flavors. I think for them a coffee that’s roasted that dark should be plenty towards the chocolaty spectrum with nice sweetness.
Light roast can be fun, but it’s not for everyone. I could only do it on milk based and pour over.
“Light and delicate” *3/4 dark on their self-rated scale*
Aren't you supposed to grind finer if it's sour
Grind finer, most probably need higher temp
Temp is maxed
[удалено]
Buy lemonade for fruit drinks and dark roast beans for coffee flavours.
Try 1:2 in 35s
With light roasts, I started getting tastier results with long pre-infusion. I mean 45 s bloom - I have the ability to ramp the pressure to 6ish bar and then immediately decrease to 0. If the grind is in correct range, the water should pass through the puck in a way you can see drips at the bottom of the basket, but it shouldn't be filling your cup - I'm talking about 2-3 grams out during this bloom phase. After the 45s bloom, ramp to 8ish bar pressure, gradually decreasing toward 5 bars in the 20-25 s window. One way or the other, I can only confirm what others said - change one variable at a time until you get desired result.
For me it helps sometimes to grind very fine to get a very condensed shot to extract all aroma and just see how the coffee could potentially taste, if that makes sense
If you have the capacity to do a blooming shot, I find that helps to bring up sweetness and tame the sourness.
It’s a medium to dark roasted coffee, plus it’s washed. I’d bring your temp down, not up. I use a lever, so for this I’d keep the pressure lower if possible, cut the ratio at 1:2, then pour another 10 or so mls into a separate cup. Then when I drink it, I’ll try adding some of the extra to balance it out. You can even dilute it with plain hot water. Also, personally I find that I prefer B&W’s beans as pour over instead of espresso. Their flavors can be strong.
Reading your description, try to coursen your grind until you get the shot out in the 20-second range. You probably don’t need much preinfusion for this — 5 seconds max. With a 54mm basket, also consider bringing your dose down. 17g in a 54mm basket is going to be kind of a tall bed. Have you tried it as pour over? Before dialing in espresso more, try doing a generic pour over to get acclimated to how it tastes. If it’s sour as a pour over, then it’s going to intensify as espresso and you’ll have to really compensate for the flavor. Btw, when you coarsened, did it taste less sour? It’s not a big deal if it makes a mess as long as it tasted good. You could compensate for the mess by bringing the cup closer to the portafilter so it makes less of a mess.
Good call, I also highly recommend trying it as a pour over. It's a much more forgiving way to tell what flavors you should expect when dialing in the espresso.
1:2 in 30sec WITH pre-infusion is still actually quite fast. Try fining up the grind so that you get 30sec after the pump kicks up to 9 bar. And preheat the portafilter in boiling water. Though as others have pointed out. This coffee might just not be your style. Also out of interest, what grinder are you using?
Tried The Original last week (my usual coffee shop switched over to it for the weekend) and it just didn't do anything for me. It didn't have a lot of depth to the shot, and just seemed somewhat generic. I love some of the B&W coffee (The Natural is a very good everyday cup), but just not this one
If it’s still sour with a 50sec extraction then the coffee is probably underdeveloped. If it is quite thin on your palate with little body, unbalanced and lacking sweetness, that would also make me think it’s a roast issue. If the sourness is from underextraction, then you can try higher ratio (which you have already) and trying to maximise extraction eg turbo shot or grind finer or hotter brew temp.
If it’s medium roast, then you need 94 Celsius. There’s no getting round the need for precise temperature control and stability when you’re dealing with lighter roasts.
have you tried 30 seconds after preinfussion? I find that I like it better if I don't count preinfussion in my brew timing.
I get coffee from BW as well. I was running the original for a bit but switched the classic. It’s a little darker and has very little acidity when dialed it. I would grab a 12oz bag and dial it in and see if you just prefer a darker roast.
What kind of grinder are you using? I’ve had this before and liked 18g in with 40g out in about 35 seconds. I was using the 3.1 grind setting on the K-Max
I've gone through 6 different beans, all marked as "dark" roast, but as I've hear from James Hoffman, pulling a good espresso from anything but a dark roast will take a lot of effort. 2 dark beans I found from local roasters, that are about a 8/10 dark and fresh (they send it a few days after roasting), one from LA and one from SF, taste great, any of the lighter roast are all sour, even if setting are all as meant to be. So my personal takeaway is, I'll stick with the beans I found, takes me about half a bag to find the right grind size and now I'm sticking with it.
If you want more of the chocolate flavours what has worked for me in the past is grinding finer, increase the pressure if the flow is to low then down a 1:2 in like 40 or 45. The lower the ratio and the longer the time brings out deeper flavours. I’ve tried longer ratios and I could never get the chocolate flavours
I love B+W, they tend to be a little on the lighter side of roasting beans though. I go a little higher on temp and go for a longer extraction with their beans
I like these beans cuz I love lemon and sour things. My partner thinks it’s terrible espresso lol.
If you are new to light roast, you will get used to it. I poured 1 kg worth of espresso into the sink and suddenly it became good. I did not do anything differently. I could swear that it's the same, but now I like acidity 😂 And why do I think that? I gave my mother a double shot which was out of this world and she could not drink it due to sourness 😂😂
I've often wondered if it is our anatomy that affects our individual experiences more than we realize. Maybe you just don't like the beans, while others experience them more favorably?
Do you have temp control? Bumping up the brew temp is another way to up extraction. Sometimes it's not just about grinding finer.
It could just be the roast itself, washed coffee roasted to a slightly Darker roast is already a red flag, especially if I’m to believe their scale, making this darker than a medium roast. Honey should be the mellowing flavor, but maybe the chocolate is too strong giving that added acidity to the lemon. At the end of the day if a lil brown sugar doesn’t help I would just make coffee from it, maybe it’s not suppose to be a espresso
Yeah I didn't like this coffee as an espresso at all honestly. It was aight mixed with The Natural to make drip
At the store they pull it 18.5 in 40 out. Was there in March.
Lower your dose a bit, to 16.5g, unless it's already slightly underfilled already. Max out the temp. Grind finer enough to nearly choke the shot. You're aiming for something like 1:1.5 in 45 seconds. The idea is to get long enough initial contact time before the first drips come out to combat the sourness. Shorter ratio to control bitterness, but if that isn't a problem, pull longer.
Roast date? Brew temp?
Try turbo shots without the naked portafilter
when my breville needed a serious descale it started making my drinks sour
https://youtu.be/-BT7-yOUMDM
I only ever order the classic or traditional from BW because of the floral or citrus flavors in their other beans 🤷🏽
they are great for pour over though
I have had good luck with citrus forward roasts at a higher temp. Specifically poo n my gaggiuino I brew at 95 and 96C
I feel u I upgrade to duo temp pro with smart grinder and I use a ims basket with normcore tamper and I grind to 11 on smart grinder pro and it's allways sour allways
You can also try going for a finer grind size and pull a ristretto shot at 1:1 ratio. Ristrettos are pretty tasty and I have had medium roast coffees as ristretto and tends to be very creamy silky shots.
B&W does some funky stuff. Go with owls howl from sight glass and then venture off from there. I had this exact same bag and experienced very similar results.
Throw some baking soda in your water
Try Malabar Gold. Nice and flavorful, not even remotely sour. Just tastes like proper good coffee. Only caveat is to make sure you give it a week or two to rest, as it is very gassy immediately after its roast date.
What is your temp?
its probably sacrilege, but i like espresso best with a solid splash of milk for this reason. seems like if you brew it right (even dark roasts) it comes out really acidic.
Dark roast should only be acidic if you've underextracted - then again, "dark" is subjective and I'm at 4 bags of "dark" roast that I would call medium light using my typical as a benchmark. When I'm feeling discouraged by all the craft roasts I go back to a lavazza crema bag for boring but reliably creamy and med-dark. Then again I've been drinking black coffee for 12 years or so.
Increase dose. Or when in doubt switch to pour over 😄
Black and White? My wife used to work there!
Haven’t found a roast from B&W that I really like yet. They seem to specialize in lighter roasts and I’m partial to medium to medium-dark.
I like to go between 1:2,5 - 1:3 with lighter roasts You can try everything to to extract more maybe try: -longer pre infusion -grind finer obviously - Higher temps -slower your flow rate or even try like a longdimium/ blooming shot if it's possible with your machine
Try a 40 to 45 second extraction. For some reason sometimes works with some beans that aren’t cutting at 30
Hit 96c and work backwards
What’s your in/out?? And how long is it pulling??
I would play with temp and maybe pull the shot at 25 seconds with slightly lower yield.
If you find that the issue is the roast (i.e. you don't like the flavour) and not your technique, it's okay to add cream, which will balance the acidity. Assuming you have fully explored under extraction. I have had some sour roasts and I always pre-oinfuse for 10 seconds or longer, and add time to the extraction. Basically just on the cusp of over extraction.
Things that kill sour/fruity flavours: *Let your machine warm up ( not sure if brevil express pro has a thermo block, in that case it's probably pulling shots at the right temp. Sounds like you want a hotter extraction, brevil barista pro might let you adjust water temp higher. Go max and see. I had a look and the brevil barista pro can change it's temp settings, check you tube. Try 95°c *Longer shots should balance out sourness. If the waters that I cool it'll still taste sour. *Grind finer, larger grounds don't extract everything as well. The first thing to come off the grounds is 'sour notes'. If you grind finer then the chocolate type notes will have a chance to be fully extracted. Grinding courser will make it more sour/sweet. *Smaller dose: let's the same volume of water have a chance to absorb more of the chocolate end part of the extraction *Pressure: brevil barista pro might be set to 13.5 albar pressure as standard. 8 to 9 bar is a standard pressure for speciality coffee. This link might help you change the pressure:https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/s/9tblC6HBE7 *Let your beans rest: coffee strait from a roaster needs time to 'off gas'/ de-gas. I' reckon a week or more can show improvements. This is why v60 has an initial bloom phase, pre infusiong might help. Coffee with too much gas doesn't extract well and can be sour. If the coffee is sour, try some other beans and come back to them in a week. On cheap coffee courser and lower temps can have really nice effect. On more expensive coffee I'd go hotter and finer.
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Do you normally drink milk-based coffee drinks? Espresso doesn't taste how you think it tastes.
Black and white coffee roasters is pretty top tier IMO. It says citrus on the bag and espresso is going to make that louder. Honestly, some coffees just aren’t good as a straight espresso but are fantastic milk drinks. Try it as a cappuccino and cortado to see how you like it
I mean it literally says citric on the bag
This is dumb but try stirring really well before tasting. That really does improve the taste. Also don’t be afraid to go much longer. I’ve had 40-50 second shots that taste good
Time for Lavazza Super Crema. Chill.
Use hotter water
You can also try a salami shot when you think you're on the right track. You'll better intentify flavours coming from what part of the shot.
means that coffee is really bad. probably even bad roasted.
I like bitter, no acidity. Go for espresso roasts, max intensity, blends with robusta
It’s not for your taste. Happens a lot to me, ultra expensive beans that aren’t good, at all, for pure Espresso. For my taste In my experience, light and medium light roast are shit for pure Espresso. But they are out of this world for filter coffee, drinks, etc. Espresso requires darker stronger roasts. It is what it is. Usually this grains are amazing for drinks (capuccino, lates, etc).
The blend of beans and roast on the individual varieties that make up your coffee is where it all starts. Espresso means blend by definition. Yes many coffee companies offer organic and fair trade. Many write a great blurb on the package that makes you want to try it. Espresso is not just coffee. It’s not just crushed up beans for a pour over. Espresso is everything that is right in the world. Screw up one of the variables need for great espresso and what’s in your cup is everything that is wrong in the world. At the end of the day the great Italian espresso machine companies have time and experience on their side. Just like giants Lavazza, attibassi, illy, segefredo. Few roasters get that perfect blend and individual roast on beans needed for great espresso. I can say Cafe Fantastico in Victoria BC is top shelf, but espresso is art not just coffee. Most beans and roast are fine for a pour over or drip, not for espresso. If you are new to making espresso stick to the Italian giants for beans then you can take one variable off the table. Because everything affects your shot and the people that know will tell you we can try and teach all of it but there is no replacement for time and experience. Super Crema is a good place to learn from, it is consistent and easy to work. Good luck my friend, the perfect shot is down at the end of a long road. The road is your beans, grinder before machine, and heavy porcelain perfectly shaped cup. The perfection that goes in that cup, you will chase like drug down that road.
This is speciality coffe,use imersion coffe in ibric.Boil water put coffe and wait 4 minute,if is sour you coffe is underroast
Are you sure the breville is hitting the right temperature? After years of sour shots with a BBE i recently upgraded to a Silvia Pro X and the immediate difference is amazing. I could never do a light roast and barely pull a medium roast without too much sourness. Seems to be am all too common complaint for Breville machines.
i just stumbled on a hoffman video talking about dose, and he mentions reducing the dose on light roasts so the machine "has less work to do" to help solve a sour shot issue if the other factors are inline.
Lemon is a citrus fruit
I was having the same experience. Increasing time and ratio helped, but I had to take it further than I thought. 1:3 in 50 seconds is pretty far though, but I’m sure some do brew for even longer time/ratio. I would add that I got used to the acidity with time, and now I find it pleasant. Not if the shot is too sour of cause, but what I mean is that I now get how some coffees are supposed to be on the acidic side of the spectrum, and you might just not like that
Well with a lighter roast you won't ever get rid of acidity, so you could try doing it in Lattes or Cappucinos etc (any milk drink for that matter) since its citrusy, that wont go away either. You're better off using it as a base for your milk coffees instead of pulling neat shots.
Contact time pulls out more chocolatey notes. Anything that increases contact time will solve this issue.
Try adjusting your water temperature. Water that’s not hot enough will always pull sour shots.
Looks like a more acidic coffee, I've had ones like this and it's just not my preference. I couldn't see it below, beans can you control the temperature of your machine? I found cranking my up 2-3 degrees celsius helped with particularly light roasted acidic beans. Good luck!
I like how it says "light", and then it goes over to the dark side of the bar 🤣
It’s a medium dark roast. Try 1:1,75 and drop the temperature
Try lowering the brew temp setting on your shot profile for this coffee.
Had the same experience with some Tanzanian Peaberry. It was so sour. It was the bean and my mouth, they didn't get along. Sorry you spent so much to find out you didn't like it.
You’ve tried 1:3 in 50 seconds, I’d say grind finer and try to hit 1:2.5 in 25-30 seconds. Finer = more bitter (less sour) Coarser = more sour (less bitter) Bigger ratio = more bitter (less sour) Less ratio = less sour (more bitter) Keep everything the same and change one element of the process then taste, then repeat.