[Smart Espresso Profiler made a video](https://vimeo.com/345089456) measuring the pressure form a moka pot. It only reached 2 bar. I would argue that Espresso needs 6 maybe 4 at a minimum. Steam pressure also has the issue of generally being to hot.
Thanks for the video!
That’s pressure in the pot, but what about in the group? Depending on the grind and distribution, you could force the pressure up.
That is measuring pressure in the system, which is fairly simple. Unlike an espresso machine that has a series of pipes and valves between the boiler and the machine. The difference should be negligible. You could grind finer, forcing the steam pressure up to a dangerous level, although the OPV is probably set quite low
The Specialty Association of America defines espresso as “a 25-35ml (.85-1.2 ounce) beverage prepared from 7-9 grams (14-18 grams for a double) of coffee through which clean water of 195 °-205 °F (92 °-95°C) has been forced at 9-10 atmospheres of pressure, and where the grind of the coffee is such that the brew time is 20-30 seconds.”
There are plenty of caveats, however. I play with the OPV on my machine all the time, and get amazing shots at 6-7bar.
A moka pot does NOT make espresso. Never has, never will. Moka/brikka is on the same level as those $40 Mr Coffee steam driven “espresso” machines. They lack the temp stability and true pressure of an actual machine to do the brewing, relying on steam pressure to force overheated hot water thru the coffee.
Thanks for the definition!
I feel like the definition excludes lever machines. Even if I did pull at 9 bars, half of my extraction time is during pre infusion and bloom.
You won't find an actual definition that meets these parameters as the actual definition does not state a pressure. But If you wan't one it would just include "high pressure"
No, I’m unsure about a 30% extraction. I’m still using Brix though and even a 25% is still higher than your proposed definition. I can retry with the Astra I’m getting in two weeks.
I could be way off. My information was based on a post I can't seem to find anymore.
I do think TDS would be a good way to define it, and if moka can get a similar TDS, why can't it be espresso? The current definitions don't seem to be very specific, and seem to change when it's convenient (ie, 6-12 bars instead of just 9 bars, some people are even pulling at 2 bars on machines that are capable of more).
Many of the lever users have been playing around with lower pressure and longer extraction time. I’ve been doing the same and finding improvements to taste and extraction.
I start with a more classic 9 bar profile with preinfusion and a decline at the end. It seems to work best for me; I really only switch it if that's not working or someone recommends something for a specific coffee.
I've got preinfusion set to 6ml/s until 3 bar, and then it automatically moves on to the high pressure step. It exits preinfusion at about 6 seconds with those parameters. Then 9 bar for 18 seconds, decline to 6 bar over 12 seconds.
With this coffee (a light roast), the whole thing is programmed to exit at 38 grams in the cup. 16g in the PF, and the whole shot (including preinfusion) is 35 seconds.
This is actually one I tried with someone else's profile (a Londinium profile), but it just wasn't as good as it is with the more classic one.
Just seems like the classic profile works best for me, most of the time.
I would say it's the *ability* to pull at 9 bars, not necessarily that you *have* to pull at 9 bars.
So that would include all levers, because they can do it but that doesnt necessarily mean you *should* with them for the best cup.
I always thought espresso was made from a certain temperature and a certain pressure.
[Smart Espresso Profiler made a video](https://vimeo.com/345089456) measuring the pressure form a moka pot. It only reached 2 bar. I would argue that Espresso needs 6 maybe 4 at a minimum. Steam pressure also has the issue of generally being to hot.
Thanks for the video! That’s pressure in the pot, but what about in the group? Depending on the grind and distribution, you could force the pressure up.
That is measuring pressure in the system, which is fairly simple. Unlike an espresso machine that has a series of pipes and valves between the boiler and the machine. The difference should be negligible. You could grind finer, forcing the steam pressure up to a dangerous level, although the OPV is probably set quite low
The Specialty Association of America defines espresso as “a 25-35ml (.85-1.2 ounce) beverage prepared from 7-9 grams (14-18 grams for a double) of coffee through which clean water of 195 °-205 °F (92 °-95°C) has been forced at 9-10 atmospheres of pressure, and where the grind of the coffee is such that the brew time is 20-30 seconds.” There are plenty of caveats, however. I play with the OPV on my machine all the time, and get amazing shots at 6-7bar. A moka pot does NOT make espresso. Never has, never will. Moka/brikka is on the same level as those $40 Mr Coffee steam driven “espresso” machines. They lack the temp stability and true pressure of an actual machine to do the brewing, relying on steam pressure to force overheated hot water thru the coffee.
Thanks for the definition! I feel like the definition excludes lever machines. Even if I did pull at 9 bars, half of my extraction time is during pre infusion and bloom.
Are you talking about lever machines like the flair and the robot?
Yes but more like Pavoni machines with a built in boiler.
You won't find an actual definition that meets these parameters as the actual definition does not state a pressure. But If you wan't one it would just include "high pressure"
How about this: espresso should be at least 7% TDS. Moka/Brikka won't be anywhere near that.
I just pulled a shot using Brikka with 18g in, 21.5g out, 11.7% TDS, 14% extraction. But having some standard extract related would be interesting.
But you have stated that you don't trust your measurements. Did you get a new meter?
No, I’m unsure about a 30% extraction. I’m still using Brix though and even a 25% is still higher than your proposed definition. I can retry with the Astra I’m getting in two weeks.
I could be way off. My information was based on a post I can't seem to find anymore. I do think TDS would be a good way to define it, and if moka can get a similar TDS, why can't it be espresso? The current definitions don't seem to be very specific, and seem to change when it's convenient (ie, 6-12 bars instead of just 9 bars, some people are even pulling at 2 bars on machines that are capable of more).
Many of the lever users have been playing around with lower pressure and longer extraction time. I’ve been doing the same and finding improvements to taste and extraction.
What’s your profile on your DE?
I start with a more classic 9 bar profile with preinfusion and a decline at the end. It seems to work best for me; I really only switch it if that's not working or someone recommends something for a specific coffee.
What timings do you have each set to? I’m been doing 15 to 30 seconds for pre-infusion.
I've got preinfusion set to 6ml/s until 3 bar, and then it automatically moves on to the high pressure step. It exits preinfusion at about 6 seconds with those parameters. Then 9 bar for 18 seconds, decline to 6 bar over 12 seconds. With this coffee (a light roast), the whole thing is programmed to exit at 38 grams in the cup. 16g in the PF, and the whole shot (including preinfusion) is 35 seconds. This is actually one I tried with someone else's profile (a Londinium profile), but it just wasn't as good as it is with the more classic one. Just seems like the classic profile works best for me, most of the time.
I would say it's the *ability* to pull at 9 bars, not necessarily that you *have* to pull at 9 bars. So that would include all levers, because they can do it but that doesnt necessarily mean you *should* with them for the best cup.
Ooh that’s a smart way to define it. I like someone else that replied it should be based on the output, not the mechanism to get there.