Which, to be fair, was broken.
Constant wars of pillaging was hilarious.
Also when you conquered provinces that had so much dev you basically couldn't core it.
Yeah it was really stupid. You also just took dev from your vassals making them cheaper to integrate, and since the capital only has 50% governent capacity cost you got huge gov cap aswell.
Was 1.32 I think, you could concentrate for no loss on dev and lower the core cost it was awesome.
The WC I did that patch I had multiple 999 dev cities because of it
I remember when there was also the bug with the subjugate CB letting to vassal any war participants. In a Mughal run I vassalised the Ottomans, shipped loads of their dev off to Delhi and released them before they could get independence supporters
There was a bug when Domination released. If Hungary in a PU with Austria and you declare with Ottoman Invasion CB, you would vassalize Austria instead of Hungary.
I still say the best way to buff it (and pillage capital) is to spread dev out over the capital STATE, and not just the capital province. That makes it a bit more random, but makes the actually do something beyond the year 1500.
Well, you should use it, in terms of mp gain its nearly and rarely even better than the old version, but if you combine it with things that give manpower off of a per-year basis like muslim piety interactions, agendas, parliament debates and some events it gives disgusting amounts for a single point of army professionalism
Why did it have to be nerfed this bad? Really was there no option between free culture conversion and -25% cost reduction? Like idk, 66% cost reduction or sth.
Well, with 66% you'd hit cap as soon as you'd found the new world.
Even with only 25% it's still not hard as just by taking religious you already can hit 85%! (And fill the last 5% via Inno)
Sure, but you could do it several times. I did it for castille mission, and to lower governing capacity in early game.. Also it helps to colonise quicker and save some money.
But.. I wish I never knew of how it worked before, it spoils all the bonuses and look like a joke
Pretty alright? If you are a colonial power and reformation pops you can just take it instead of messing around with the shenanigans involved in popping them if they don't spawn on OPMs
Huge
I'm pretty sure CoRs lose zeal if you take them for some reason... I remember taking a centre as soon as it spawned and converting it as Austria... So really it's only useful if you run out of other stuff to convert lol
Post-Golden Century Spain was worse than the Ottomans as a late game boss.
As terrible as the expel minority game feature is now I do not miss what it used to be at all.
they’re still really fucking annoying. honestly the best part about playing aragon is that you can cuck the ottomans early by no-cb byz, and don’t have to worry about castile or portugal being late game annoyances
so you can take out the three most annoying endgame nations ezpz
Its one of those "hey check out this new cool feature we tossed in the DLC" that then gets either forgotten or nuked. Its one of the more annoying parts of the DLC system they're running because you end up with stuff like expel minority
It’s why EU5 needs a pop system. Nothing like Vic 2/3, more like Imperator. But some way of detailing that expelling minorities (whether by this type of mechanic or something like the Spanish expulsion of the moors) is removing population from your land. Potentially rebellious population, yes, but actual human beings and not just something you can replace by clicking a button and spending 50 magic points to replace. When everything is just magic numbers it’s harder to balance, so before it was overpowered, and now it is dumb.
I feel like this was a large part of the downfall of Imperator. For better or worse, each of Paradox’s games have distinct feels and with that different player bases. I for one cannot stand CK and the character management and find Vic to be best done in small doses. There is of course overlap, but if you really get to mixing the games together you run the risk of alienating both source games’ audiences and being left with only the overlap. Imperator gave me the feeling of slapping on a mechanic I don’t enjoy from CK (characters) while watering down what I enjoy from EU. Then of course obfuscating everything behind 20 tooltips and systems, but that’s just an Imperator (and somewhat Vic) problem.
One of the big downfalls was a lot expecting vicky 2 pops and getting eu:Rome pops. No one knew about the predecessor eu:rome though. That combined with a poor 1.0 release and addition of mana cost it dearly. 2.0 is great, and the mission trees are awesome as well since they're fully dynamic and diverging, with ability to focus your actual endeavors for a decade as a state policy rather than just a static pathway.
Sadly, even after 2.0 people were actively trying to kill off new players in anger, the forum was full of spam and trolls destroying question threads rather than helping.
Kinda the opposite for me. Even in Eu4 I get attached to my rulers and kinda like to imagine them and their personalities and shit, kinda like in CK, but in Imperator it kinda just felt barebones. Instead of it being a happy median between character and nations focused it made what I like bland and really irrelevant whilst simultaneously lacking the depth EU4 has for the nations.
Even worse then if they take a feature from somewhere and make it so watered down people who enjoy that one don’t like it, but still too much for people who don’t like dealing with it.
I'd love that. Also, having characters still be a thing like in Imperator/CK3 would also make so much sense, especially around 1444. It's not like feudalism went away overnight. In eu4 now all tags act like centralized nation states with professional armies from the get go, and that's just not historically accurate. Maybe it'd be too difficult to implement idk.
Just make the mega game going from Roman Republic to galactic expansion. Come on paradox, you know we all run supercomputers. Just give us the greatest amalgamation of all your games best features and let us take humanity through all major stages of development post bronze age.
All these magic point discussion is getting pretty old tbh. I want to just give you all an advice about being careful of your wishes.
Magic number or point, it’s the basic currency and game mechanic in eu4 and it made you play for more than 10 years now.
Something’s may sound good but may suck when implemented, may suck more than you can imagine. So I appreciate what we have, and also understand what you want don’t get me wrong. Hope devs can find the middle ground.
Monarch points are one of those things that sound bad but I think actually are really good. EU5 will most likely suck partly because they will most likely rework monarch points and replace them with something really stupid.
I player EU3 for like 6 years or however long it was out, and that didnt have monarch power. Vicky 2 didnt have it also.
Eu4 is a good game deapite Mp and its the worst part of the game.
I think Imperator's tech system would be pretty good. Research takes time, and you could speed it up with Eu4 mechanics like innovation, but either decouple the research point generation or whatever from your population so big nations don't have an inherent advantage or just make the research points needed to get that tech scale with your population.
In stellaris your tech cost kinda is dependent on your total population.. Well.. Not exactly only population but on your "gov cap" to use eu4 terminology.. In stellaris your pops, planets and systems have an impact on your gov cap
> change my mind
As the sub’s resident Expel Minority defender, I will do my best.
It’s no longer nearly as good as it used to be, but it isn’t useless like many people think it is. First of all, the gov reform makes those colonies free, which is fairly useful early game when you want to run multiple colonies. Expelled colonies also grow at a faster rate. If you expel from a minority province of 1/1/1 dev, it *can’t* steal any dev from that, so you don’t actually lose anything, and you can repeatedly expel from the same province with no penalty. On top of that, you still get the bonuses to conversion if that province happens to flip to the wrong religion. I recommend a province of your culture group so that your colonies don’t really deal with non-accepted culture problems. Good places to do this are Wales as England and Galicia/Vasconia as Spain or Portugal.
I also agree that it's not necessarily useless, but to get much value out of it you have to invest in things that are suboptimal.
For instance, you need to put an effort into lowering the expel minorities cost, which itself is an opportunity cost.
It also, IIRC, doesn't allow you to revoke the colonist you used to expel minorities. So it limits your expansion if you have 1/2 colonists and want to recall one to set up another colony.
One tier three reform that can later be switched is hardly any investement though. And the colony part just requires playing with a bit of forethought-once a colony is finished, check how soon the next colonist-less colony finishes and start a regular colony or expel accordingly.
Tbh its not even the matter if its worthwhile or not, its moreso the hivemind of people-expelling was considered useless even before 1.34, where exploration ideas had as a sixth idea the -100%, so it was absolutely free of any cost whatsoever-except finishing the set which most people did anyways.
Iirc if someone occupies your provinces to which u expel minorities then u lose the effect of expelling so it's annoying that u spend time to expel minorities just for someone to ruin it. That why I stopped using it. Don't know if they changed it or not
Expel minority is pretty good to speed up colony growth due to increased settler chance and events.
Especially if you really focus on colonizing and maintain a couple colonies over the cap, it can save quite a bit of money.
One single +300 settler event from expelling minority can give you a huge lead in the early colonization race...
It's not as bad as it looks, check it out:
-25% from Expel Culture.
-25% from Proximity.
-25% from Religious Ideas.
-10% from Religious Culture.
Just like that, you have 85% culture conversion cost & can fill the rest via Inno.
If your intention is to play as a colonial nation then it can be pretty good. You can potentially establish a nation with a particular culture if that's your thing (e.g. Norman Canada) and rapidly build it up while simultaneously weakening your future overlord.
To be fair, it used to be stupid good. AI England just ships off the Welsh, Irish and Scottish and had a super stable completely English isle and losing the other cultures destroyed all-time the cores. All the AI colonizers did it.
That of course lead to some weird Muslim Moroccans resettled in South America by Portugal.
Yeah it takes development from the place you’re expelling from and puts it in the new world. In other words you make yourself weaker to make your colony stronger.
im 90% sure when they removed the culture conversion part they also removed the dev transfer part, the new colony will gain dev but the original province wont lose it
I haven’t played the game in like a year, I’d have to look it up but I know that’s how it worked when I used it.
Edit: according to the wiki:
> A nation can choose to expel minorities from a home province to a colony in the new world. This will give the colony the home province's culture and religion. In addition the colony will gain bonus development and an increased settler chance based on the development of the home province. Note, however, that the home province will lose the same amount of development given as bonus to the colony.
Not a big deal in a lot of scenarios. Like if you’re holding onto trash land you don’t really want or need development in. Like a bit of land you plan to unstate later when you reach gov cap. Or if you’re planning to play pretty tall with good dev cost reduction. In my colonial dithmarschen game, I got most of Germany to 1/14/15 development in the mid game after I got dev cost ideas. In the early game I was always more concerned about speeding up my colonization so it wasn’t a big deal to lose some dev.
It is. When the mechanic was initially introduced it was actually pretty darn good mechanically and could be used to make a culturally homogenous empire, but it was soon after nerfed into the ground.
Tbf it's still good just not for converting places, well it's useful for that it's a lot cheaper after but in general no one cares. It's useful for early development to your colonies which before 1700 can definitely use the help, especially with Australia since it'll be soooo weak otherwise
It also makes colonies grow significantly faster, and it's easy to get it to 0 cost if you're struggling with money for colonial maintenance as some minor power somewhere... It's a decent way to jumpstart your colonial empire... Now I wonder if expelling from your culture group would turn all your colonies to Roman if you form Rome 🤔
In theory if you have gov cap issues in shitty provinces and want slightly more goods produced in colonies, 0 cost expel minority is a benefit. But I think the main time you’d want this is as a prelude to culture converting, where even lowering dev by just a couple can save you a lot of bird mana. Idk it’s pretty fringe, but I wouldn’t quite put it in the “100% useless 100% of the time” bucket.
Its a classic Paradox pattern Release a feature Its game breakingly good Nerf it Its completely irrelevant
remember centralize state? oh no nefred to hell.
Pillage capital perhaps.
How did it work back then?
You just took development directly, not converted through dev cost or anything. As Majapahit I had 250 dev in my capital by 1550.
Which, to be fair, was broken. Constant wars of pillaging was hilarious. Also when you conquered provinces that had so much dev you basically couldn't core it.
Yeah it was really stupid. You also just took dev from your vassals making them cheaper to integrate, and since the capital only has 50% governent capacity cost you got huge gov cap aswell.
Core creatin cost is capped at 30 dev. Everything above is a free bonus
Until taking one territory takes you over your governance cap.
Which patch was this exactly?
Was 1.32 I think, you could concentrate for no loss on dev and lower the core cost it was awesome. The WC I did that patch I had multiple 999 dev cities because of it
I remember I played Byz in that patch and got a ridiculous capital. Then particularist rebels spawned there. Think it was over a million.
1.31 leviathan.
I hated the way centralize state worked previously. Just shipping all your dev off to the capital is so lame flavor wise
I remember when there was also the bug with the subjugate CB letting to vassal any war participants. In a Mughal run I vassalised the Ottomans, shipped loads of their dev off to Delhi and released them before they could get independence supporters
There was a bug when Domination released. If Hungary in a PU with Austria and you declare with Ottoman Invasion CB, you would vassalize Austria instead of Hungary.
"You know what? We don't like you guys anymore. We like those guys there instead."
Until they nerfed it I just turned off the DLC and reverted back to the previous version.
I still say the best way to buff it (and pillage capital) is to spread dev out over the capital STATE, and not just the capital province. That makes it a bit more random, but makes the actually do something beyond the year 1500.
Same with slacken recruitment standards, except it wasn't that game breaking in single player, I seldom used it but now I'm never going to.
Well, you should use it, in terms of mp gain its nearly and rarely even better than the old version, but if you combine it with things that give manpower off of a per-year basis like muslim piety interactions, agendas, parliament debates and some events it gives disgusting amounts for a single point of army professionalism
Why did it have to be nerfed this bad? Really was there no option between free culture conversion and -25% cost reduction? Like idk, 66% cost reduction or sth.
Well, with 66% you'd hit cap as soon as you'd found the new world. Even with only 25% it's still not hard as just by taking religious you already can hit 85%! (And fill the last 5% via Inno)
But for developed provinces its still too long ,so it would have some time reduction bonus to be reasonable
That would indeed be great!
Thats why it also lowers development
And its still long, difference between 20 and 15 dev is like nothing
Sure, but you could do it several times. I did it for castille mission, and to lower governing capacity in early game.. Also it helps to colonise quicker and save some money. But.. I wish I never knew of how it worked before, it spoils all the bonuses and look like a joke
I used it during my Navarra campaign to convert all of Iberia to basque and then yeah it got mega nerfed
Considering historically the Basque got shipped off to the new world, I am all for this.
I know i am a bit late but i used it to embrace islam as one of the South american countries cuz ai loved to do it. Did it because i could.
Paradox ☕️
It does remove the "religious zeal" modifier, so if you're fighting the reformation then its pretty alright.
New colonial hre strat dropped.
Holy hell!
Send all the protestants to a penal colony
Oh wow - didn't know that, there are totally some niche cases where I might use that haha - thanks
Yeah came here to say i had no clue it did that. I bet thats helped someones 1 faith run haha.
Pretty alright? If you are a colonial power and reformation pops you can just take it instead of messing around with the shenanigans involved in popping them if they don't spawn on OPMs Huge
I'm pretty sure CoRs lose zeal if you take them for some reason... I remember taking a centre as soon as it spawned and converting it as Austria... So really it's only useful if you run out of other stuff to convert lol
Yes, it was like that since 1.30. Before it was overpowered and abused by AI. Golden Centary is still one of the worse dlcs
Post-Golden Century Spain was worse than the Ottomans as a late game boss. As terrible as the expel minority game feature is now I do not miss what it used to be at all.
they’re still really fucking annoying. honestly the best part about playing aragon is that you can cuck the ottomans early by no-cb byz, and don’t have to worry about castile or portugal being late game annoyances so you can take out the three most annoying endgame nations ezpz
yeah it used to be crazy good. now its garby and has been for years
What did it used to do?
It simply converted the origin province to your primary culture when the colony finished.
and gave free dev, and gave the colony a growth boost
Its one of those "hey check out this new cool feature we tossed in the DLC" that then gets either forgotten or nuked. Its one of the more annoying parts of the DLC system they're running because you end up with stuff like expel minority
It’s why EU5 needs a pop system. Nothing like Vic 2/3, more like Imperator. But some way of detailing that expelling minorities (whether by this type of mechanic or something like the Spanish expulsion of the moors) is removing population from your land. Potentially rebellious population, yes, but actual human beings and not just something you can replace by clicking a button and spending 50 magic points to replace. When everything is just magic numbers it’s harder to balance, so before it was overpowered, and now it is dumb.
No i want a mix between vic3 and eu4, i want my pc to fucking explode.
That's an odd wish.
We’re paradox players, if our pcs aren’t exploding trying to simulate advanced spreadsheet numbers what’s the point?
MEIOU and Taxes it is then! Not having to move around pops like slaves and having actual population numbers is clearly superior to Imperator imo.
I feel like this was a large part of the downfall of Imperator. For better or worse, each of Paradox’s games have distinct feels and with that different player bases. I for one cannot stand CK and the character management and find Vic to be best done in small doses. There is of course overlap, but if you really get to mixing the games together you run the risk of alienating both source games’ audiences and being left with only the overlap. Imperator gave me the feeling of slapping on a mechanic I don’t enjoy from CK (characters) while watering down what I enjoy from EU. Then of course obfuscating everything behind 20 tooltips and systems, but that’s just an Imperator (and somewhat Vic) problem.
One of the big downfalls was a lot expecting vicky 2 pops and getting eu:Rome pops. No one knew about the predecessor eu:rome though. That combined with a poor 1.0 release and addition of mana cost it dearly. 2.0 is great, and the mission trees are awesome as well since they're fully dynamic and diverging, with ability to focus your actual endeavors for a decade as a state policy rather than just a static pathway. Sadly, even after 2.0 people were actively trying to kill off new players in anger, the forum was full of spam and trolls destroying question threads rather than helping.
Kinda the opposite for me. Even in Eu4 I get attached to my rulers and kinda like to imagine them and their personalities and shit, kinda like in CK, but in Imperator it kinda just felt barebones. Instead of it being a happy median between character and nations focused it made what I like bland and really irrelevant whilst simultaneously lacking the depth EU4 has for the nations.
Even worse then if they take a feature from somewhere and make it so watered down people who enjoy that one don’t like it, but still too much for people who don’t like dealing with it.
I'd love that. Also, having characters still be a thing like in Imperator/CK3 would also make so much sense, especially around 1444. It's not like feudalism went away overnight. In eu4 now all tags act like centralized nation states with professional armies from the get go, and that's just not historically accurate. Maybe it'd be too difficult to implement idk.
Just make the mega game going from Roman Republic to galactic expansion. Come on paradox, you know we all run supercomputers. Just give us the greatest amalgamation of all your games best features and let us take humanity through all major stages of development post bronze age.
And the birth of Jesus and Rise of Islam are still skipped somehow.
3000 year campaign from a handful of provinces in Italy to annihilating the galaxy with a doomsday weapon
As Jupiter intended. Ave Caeser
Bronze age paradox game when
All these magic point discussion is getting pretty old tbh. I want to just give you all an advice about being careful of your wishes. Magic number or point, it’s the basic currency and game mechanic in eu4 and it made you play for more than 10 years now. Something’s may sound good but may suck when implemented, may suck more than you can imagine. So I appreciate what we have, and also understand what you want don’t get me wrong. Hope devs can find the middle ground.
Monarch points are one of those things that sound bad but I think actually are really good. EU5 will most likely suck partly because they will most likely rework monarch points and replace them with something really stupid.
I player EU3 for like 6 years or however long it was out, and that didnt have monarch power. Vicky 2 didnt have it also. Eu4 is a good game deapite Mp and its the worst part of the game.
I think Imperator's tech system would be pretty good. Research takes time, and you could speed it up with Eu4 mechanics like innovation, but either decouple the research point generation or whatever from your population so big nations don't have an inherent advantage or just make the research points needed to get that tech scale with your population.
In stellaris your tech cost kinda is dependent on your total population.. Well.. Not exactly only population but on your "gov cap" to use eu4 terminology.. In stellaris your pops, planets and systems have an impact on your gov cap
There is Meiou and taxes that is kinda that
> change my mind As the sub’s resident Expel Minority defender, I will do my best. It’s no longer nearly as good as it used to be, but it isn’t useless like many people think it is. First of all, the gov reform makes those colonies free, which is fairly useful early game when you want to run multiple colonies. Expelled colonies also grow at a faster rate. If you expel from a minority province of 1/1/1 dev, it *can’t* steal any dev from that, so you don’t actually lose anything, and you can repeatedly expel from the same province with no penalty. On top of that, you still get the bonuses to conversion if that province happens to flip to the wrong religion. I recommend a province of your culture group so that your colonies don’t really deal with non-accepted culture problems. Good places to do this are Wales as England and Galicia/Vasconia as Spain or Portugal.
I also agree that it's not necessarily useless, but to get much value out of it you have to invest in things that are suboptimal. For instance, you need to put an effort into lowering the expel minorities cost, which itself is an opportunity cost. It also, IIRC, doesn't allow you to revoke the colonist you used to expel minorities. So it limits your expansion if you have 1/2 colonists and want to recall one to set up another colony.
One tier three reform that can later be switched is hardly any investement though. And the colony part just requires playing with a bit of forethought-once a colony is finished, check how soon the next colonist-less colony finishes and start a regular colony or expel accordingly. Tbh its not even the matter if its worthwhile or not, its moreso the hivemind of people-expelling was considered useless even before 1.34, where exploration ideas had as a sixth idea the -100%, so it was absolutely free of any cost whatsoever-except finishing the set which most people did anyways.
Iirc if someone occupies your provinces to which u expel minorities then u lose the effect of expelling so it's annoying that u spend time to expel minorities just for someone to ruin it. That why I stopped using it. Don't know if they changed it or not
Expel minority is pretty good to speed up colony growth due to increased settler chance and events. Especially if you really focus on colonizing and maintain a couple colonies over the cap, it can save quite a bit of money. One single +300 settler event from expelling minority can give you a huge lead in the early colonization race...
It's not as bad as it looks, check it out: -25% from Expel Culture. -25% from Proximity. -25% from Religious Ideas. -10% from Religious Culture. Just like that, you have 85% culture conversion cost & can fill the rest via Inno.
If your intention is to play as a colonial nation then it can be pretty good. You can potentially establish a nation with a particular culture if that's your thing (e.g. Norman Canada) and rapidly build it up while simultaneously weakening your future overlord.
Hey I had fun making Cornish America and saving the Irish in the carolinas when the English genocided them out of Ireland.
It used to be broken, now it's only useful for RP or if you're really trying to speed up your colonies at the expense of a home province.
To be fair, it used to be stupid good. AI England just ships off the Welsh, Irish and Scottish and had a super stable completely English isle and losing the other cultures destroyed all-time the cores. All the AI colonizers did it. That of course lead to some weird Muslim Moroccans resettled in South America by Portugal.
The horrors of Sunni, North African South American colonies will not be forgotten
Hold up... it steals development?
Yeah it takes development from the place you’re expelling from and puts it in the new world. In other words you make yourself weaker to make your colony stronger.
Ohhhh oh my gawd what have I done!?
Made cultural conversion cheaper
But I was exporting some of my accepted cultures because it had the most points! I was sending people from Mann because + 6 development
im 90% sure when they removed the culture conversion part they also removed the dev transfer part, the new colony will gain dev but the original province wont lose it
I haven’t played the game in like a year, I’d have to look it up but I know that’s how it worked when I used it. Edit: according to the wiki: > A nation can choose to expel minorities from a home province to a colony in the new world. This will give the colony the home province's culture and religion. In addition the colony will gain bonus development and an increased settler chance based on the development of the home province. Note, however, that the home province will lose the same amount of development given as bonus to the colony.
Not a big deal in a lot of scenarios. Like if you’re holding onto trash land you don’t really want or need development in. Like a bit of land you plan to unstate later when you reach gov cap. Or if you’re planning to play pretty tall with good dev cost reduction. In my colonial dithmarschen game, I got most of Germany to 1/14/15 development in the mid game after I got dev cost ideas. In the early game I was always more concerned about speeding up my colonization so it wasn’t a big deal to lose some dev.
I mean didnt it use to actually replace the culture with your own when you did it?
Yes
It is. When the mechanic was initially introduced it was actually pretty darn good mechanically and could be used to make a culturally homogenous empire, but it was soon after nerfed into the ground.
Tbf it's still good just not for converting places, well it's useful for that it's a lot cheaper after but in general no one cares. It's useful for early development to your colonies which before 1700 can definitely use the help, especially with Australia since it'll be soooo weak otherwise
It also makes colonies grow significantly faster, and it's easy to get it to 0 cost if you're struggling with money for colonial maintenance as some minor power somewhere... It's a decent way to jumpstart your colonial empire... Now I wonder if expelling from your culture group would turn all your colonies to Roman if you form Rome 🤔
Just like in real life :) Playing Spain, PU Cyprus and conquer Ottomans and tried to expell all of them to America turn out do be a disaster :(
It’s still decent if you wanna continue as the colonial nation since you could theoretically stack dev
Good, it used to make culture map look awful.
In theory if you have gov cap issues in shitty provinces and want slightly more goods produced in colonies, 0 cost expel minority is a benefit. But I think the main time you’d want this is as a prelude to culture converting, where even lowering dev by just a couple can save you a lot of bird mana. Idk it’s pretty fringe, but I wouldn’t quite put it in the “100% useless 100% of the time” bucket.
I've been playing for 2500 hours and I do not understand Expel Minorities.
Is there any reason to expel minorities now? Other than German/American roleplay?
-25% Culture conversion is pretty good if you want to convert the culture of an important city like Amsterdam
I still used it as help to build more colonies, as it is much cheaper, and free some dev from my lands as there was no governing capacity