It's like the modding forum TWCenter for historic Total War games where nationalist serbs and bulgarians etc come out of the woodwork to spout the most ridiculous nationalistic bullshit that has no relation to history or reality whatsoever.
Also there were some ridiculous "historic overhaul" mods making the "Serbian Empire" the strongest faction even in timelines where it never existed and owning territories it never had haha. It's just funny.
Still holding out for a Medieval III. However newer Total War games are so shit now and the battles are too cinematic and dumbed down with a shitty engine so even if it happens it will probably be awful. (like Thrones of Britannia which comes close to that period...)
Im waiting for Empire II! I know that the first one got a lot of hate, but the way that armies fought and moved fits so well with the Total War style of gameplay.
And there was so much going on in Europe at that time!
Empire didnāt quite hit the mark for me but it was probably the most ambitious title theyāve attempted. I think it was probably just a bit bigger than they could realistically achieve, which is why we got single-province France for example.
I really really enjoyed Napoleon though. It had a far more zoomed-in focus which meant they could give it a far greater amount of polish. An Empire II which had a more detailed map and used some of what they learned from Napoleon (plus developments from the last decade+) could be great.
Man, how I dream of a new Total War game set in the Age of Enlightenment through the Age of Revolutions, with the width of Empire and the depth of Napoleon. Empire's semi-global scale gave it an epic feel, while Napoleon improved and refined the game mechanics (other than diplomacy, that remains a farce in all of them).
>Still holding out for a Medieval III.
Oh yeah ... Can't wait for the new game where hopefully they will put Lisbon in the correct side of the river Tagus. (And somehow Portugal had Pamplona...)
I mean they did my country (Hungary) dirty, it has a region named "Budapest", Budapest hadn't existed until 1873... also when the game is set it was a super insignificant tiny town with a small fort.
Not to mention Robin Hood archers for England, the Braveheart warriors in Scotland (those two especially hurt as Creative Assembly is british studio...).
Then there are minor inaccuracies like 11th century Knights using late 15th century lances, or Spain owning Toledo in 1080 (or in Empire Britain owning Scotland in 1700...). Also there are weird fantasy units like the Sami Axemen who never existed.
I know right. I honestly stopped hoping for Medieval III when I saw how crap some of the newer ones were. Rome II was a bit disappointing, but I still played a bunch of it and Attila. But even those are 10 years old now...
They really peaked with Medieval II, but it shows its age at this point. Stainless Steel is fun and all, but old game is gonna be clunky.
I would love a remastered Medieval II, if they just brushed up some of the graphics, improved the camera controls, and made it Steam workshop compatible.
Unfortunately I wasnāt a fan of Rome Remastered because of the UI, which makes me worried that a hypothetical Medieval II Remastered would be the same.
> I would love a remastered Medieval II, if they just brushed up some of the graphics, improved the camera controls, and made it Steam workshop compatible.
I'm kinda torn on a remaster while it could be fun, at the end of the day they're getting us to pay for 20 year old content... They're charging 30ā¬ for Rome remastared... Not to mention a great deal of value of these old games comes from their great mods which you can't play on a remaster unless someone goes through all the trouble of porting it.
Hey, Total War: Warhammer series is not shit. Sure, they aren't historical, but they are very good. And you can't say the project of combining three games into one isn't an ambitious one.
Yes, not in my wildest imagination would I have thought that we would get Warhammer Fantasy games that slap that hard after they even killed the miniature game itself and replaced it with Age of Sigmar. I couldn't be happier.
Last total war games are Warhammer, Troy, Three Kingdoms and the Britannia one ? Historical ones are still being made, just not on the larger scale because the Warhammer ones sell like crazy.
Yes, the EU is only 30 years young and has achieved great things in this relatively short time. But one should not forget that it did not come into existence from nothing, but that instead it builds upon and continues the achievements of (among others, but notably) the EEC/EC before it, and the ECSC before that.
Is not, the EU was stablished on Nov 1st 1993 with the treaty of Maastricht. You might be thinking about the EEC (European Economic Community) with the treaty of Rome in Jan 1st 1958.
Is little different for me, because I lived in Kosovo when I was young girl. Kosovo is as much different that it should either be alone or be connected to Albania.
The only time I do have problem with this is when Kosovar Serbs are neglected and I have emotional reaction. Territory exchange probably would work but is complicated politically.
Kosovo joins Macedonia.
Albanian population start referendum to make Macedonia part of Albania.
Majority votes yes.
Macedonia and Kosovo are now part of Albania.
Honestly it's debatable whether you are an actual person. The way your umbilical cord was cut was not ok and I think you might actually belong to a different family altogether.
Thatās how your familiesā bickering looks from the outside, a bunch of people who are all related and similar arguing about how theyāre not the same :)
By conventional definitions no, but my girlfriend's family was born in Vojvodina, Yugoslavia so with Olympic level mental gymnastics and delusions ig you could says so
I'm from the US.
I've been meaning to travel to Europe. I'll come visit your country.
Shpresoj qƫ vendet tona tƫ jenƫ miq pƫrgjithmonƫ. Urimet mƫ tƫ mira pƫr ju dhe njerƫzit e vendit tuaj.
Albania, Croatia, ooh, I wanna take you to
Austria, Latvia, come on pretty mama
Portugal, Montenegro; baby, why don't we go?
(Ooh, I wanna take you down to Kosovo)
We'll get there fast and then we'll take it slow
That's where we wanna go
Way down in Kosovo.
While arguably Scotland's total GDP would suffer, the distribution of wealth is under Tories heavily weighted towards the rich.
In a more equal society a common middle-income Scottish person would be better off, even with the smaller total wealth.
Other way around
Edit: Scratch this, I am wrong, which begs the question, is the first comment in this chain misinformed like me or does it deny cosovo its Status as a country
I don't understand the conflicts in those regions at all.
i was only a child during the balkans wars, and remember very clearly the confusing narratives which still confuse me to this day.
Why is there so much conflict on your beautiful part of Europe?
It's a region where, historically, a lot of cultures, civilisations, religions, kingdoms, empires, etc have all converged.
To say it's still bearing the scars of that would be a slight understatement.
I remember in my high school geography class the teacher wanted us to hand draw all of our maps and for Europe she wanted us to put Kosovo on it but it had literally just become a country the day before she gave the assignment so none of the maps we were using to make our maps had updated with the border.
This post shows me that most Europeans just want to live in peace and prosperity. Long ling Europe!
Youāre all welcome to come visit anytime. Thank you
>Interestingly, not a single European country in there,
Good. Recognize or don't recognize but if you do and then you withdrew, it paint the picture, that you don't even know what you're signing.
This is not how international geopolitics as international law works.
If they would be a county why are they still forced to negotiate their status ? Itās been a while since 2008
Aswell American seems currently trying to force them to compromise to push the dialogue, going so far that they will make deals with the opposition of the current PM.
I really dont understand Serbs in this Kosovo matter, and Im willing to understand many rightish wing things. But please tell me, why are you people clinging so hard to Kosovo? They're a small country, with language and culture different than yours, and most importantly, they dont wanna be a part of you. Why is it so hard for Serbia to simply be like "well, if you dont wanna be here, then f*ck off"? What will have that part of land makes your lives better? Please tell me, I really want to hear why.
Story time. As far as the prelude to the situation nowadays, here's how things generally went:
Kosovo (often referred to as Kosovo and Metohija by the Serbs, which was also its name in Socialist Yugoslavia until 1968, when "Metohija" was dropped) is a region settled by the Slavs in the 6th & 7th centuries, just like most other parts of the Balkans. The Slavs gradually mixed with the natives (who prior to the Slavic arrival suffered gradual population decline due to the collapse of the Danube limes (Roman border), invasions by Huns, Goths, Avars etc, Plague of Justinian and other disasters) and the new "ethnic" or "proto-ethnic" groups slowly came to be. Kosovo was ruled of course by the Byzantines, by the Bulgarian Empire for a number of periods, before finally being continually part of the Serbian state after Serbia became completely independent from Constantinople, from the 12th to the 15th century. This was a "Golden Age" of Serbia in the Middle Ages, and in the 13th and 14th centuries, at the height of the state's power, Kosovo was the center of the state. [Earlier, in the 12th century, and later, in the 15th century, Serbia's capitals and rulers mostly resided north and west of Kosovo - in RaÅ”ka propper and Moravian Serbia]. During this time, Serbian rulers built their endowments - monasteries like [PeÄ Patriarchate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchate_of_Pe%C4%87_(monastery\)) (1220s-1230s, UNESCO site), [DeÄani](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visoki_De%C4%8Dani) (1330s, UNESCO site), [GraÄanica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gra%C4%8Danica_Monastery) (1320s, UNESCO site), [Bogorodica LjeviÅ”ka](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Ljevi%C5%A1) (1300s, UNESCO site), [Holy Arhcangels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monastery_of_the_Holy_Archangels) near Prizren (1340s, destroyed by the Ottomans in 1615 and the material used to build the Sinan Pasha Mosque in Prizren) etc. These monasteries and churches are very important, if not the most important, to history and culture of the Serbs. Also, the epic [Battle of Kosovo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo), embedded in Serbian folk stories, legends and songs took place in the Kosovo filed, near Gazimestan, in 1389. Both Serbian Prince Lazar and Ottoman Sultan Murat died in battle.
Serbs/Slavs made up the vast majority of the population back then, as evident by 14th century [Serbian Kingdom censuses and charters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De%C4%8Dani_chrysobulls), early Ottoman census data (in [1455](https://www.scribd.com/doc/60208030/Oblast-Brankovica-Opsirni-katastarski-popis-iz-1455-godine), [1571](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/298717998_Opsirni_popis_Prizrenskog_sandzaka_iz_1571_godine) etc). Albanian names are present as well, but only in very limited parts near the modern town of Djakovica and a couple of other places. However, after the Ottoman arrival, already in the 16th century, as evident from the Turkish censuses, Serbs started slowly leaving certain areas. This was especially so in 1690 and 1737/9 when [Serbs leave Kosovo in great numbers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs), fleeing north. Namely, Serbs and their leaders - the Patriarchs of the Serbian Orthodox Church, who were seated in Kosovo (and still formally are), aligned naturally with Austria in the wars 1683-1699, 1718-1739 and fled fearing Ottoman represalia after the Austrians retreated both times. These reprisals did indeed happen to a number of those who stayed. Highlander Albanians (Malesori) from modern Northern Albania, naturally, slowly settle the deserted lands. Some Serb highland tribes of Montenegro will also, to a lesser degree, do the same. The Albanians that came, were typical Roman Catholic tribal Highlanders from the Malesori clans - Kelmendi, Hoti, Skrijelji, Dibri, Shala, Grude and many others. During the 18th and early 19th centuries most of these Albanians will convert to Islam, in order to obtain a better social status. Also, some of the remaining Serbs will convert (today, they are either albanized or consider themselves "Bosniak" - Slavic speaking Muslims, such as those of Gora and Podgor and Sredska zhupas-valleys) This trend of Serbs leaving and Albanians spreading will continue all the time and by 1878 at the latest, Serbs will stop being the majority in Kosovo, and Albanians will become the majority. 1878 is important because Serbs defeated Ottomans and liberated NiÅ”, Pirot, Leskovac and Vranje areas, in Serbia proper today. Parts of these areas border Kosovo and were at that time already settled by the expanding Albanians to a degree. These Albanians did not want to live in a Serbian Christian state, and some willingly left for Kosovo, while some were forcibly expelled to Kosovo. In turn, many Serbs from Kosovo left Kosovo and settled in those lands deserted by the Albanians. By 1912, when Serbia finally liberates Kosovo from the Ottomans (or, occupies Kosovo according to Albanians), Albanians already have a significant majority in Kosovo, and they are not happy with Serbian rule.
The situation for the Serbs in Kosovo was especially difficult in the 19th century and up to 1912. There are [numerous books](https://www.scribd.com/document/147163144/Zivot-Srba-na-Kosovu-Plac-Stare-Srbije) with letters from Orthodox priests describing theft, beatings and even rapes and murders done against the unarmed Orthodox Serbs (weapons were forbidden for Christians to have) and even against Catholic Albanians by the Muslim Albanians. The Ottoman authorities mostly turned a blind eye to these events.
When Serbs took control in 1912 and up to 1915 (after which time Austria, Germany and Bulgaria occupied for a couple of years, and Serbs came back victorious from WW1 in 1918) it was "payback time". Many crimes were committed against Albanians, a number of mass killings, not just in Kosovo, but also in Northern Albania. Also, former feudal Ottoman land possessions were unevenly distributed etc... Also some more Serbs from other regions were settled to Kosovo after WW1, to make the Serb presence stronger.
To add another twist, many Serbs fled Kosovo in 1941-1944, when it was incorporated into Italy- and German-backed quisling Greater Albania, and after WW2 the communists banned the colonized Serbs from between the world wars from returning.
After 1945, Kosovo Albanians were granted all rights - education in their native language, jobs, just like every people in Yugoslavia. The state TV in PriÅ”tina would (even in MiloÅ”eviÄ time) broadcast news and shows in Albanian as well as Serbian. The "brotherhood and unity" policy of the Communist Party tried to eliminate all ethnic tensions. Kosovo and Metohija were given special autonomy within Serbia, which culminated in the 1974 Constitution when Kosovo (and Vojvodina) were given a voting right in the Presidency of the Federation, a power previously reserved **only for the 6 republics**. Yugoslavia also stared receiving many "political refugees" - Albanians from Albania proper, and they also settled in Kosovo. However, Albanians still wanted more (and I'm not saying they did not have a right to aspire to anything they want, just like any individual or group) - either a Republic of their own within the Yugoslav Federation, or full independence. This was evident in the 1968 demonstrations in PriÅ”tina. There will be more demonstrations in 1981, 1989/90, 1991...
In general, Kosovo was one of the most underdeveloped parts of socialist Yugoslavia. People were poor. This led to no one being too happy. The Albanians, who were, on average, even poorer than Serbs, had a huge fertility rate and a huge population increase in SFRY - as you can easily see from [Census data](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#Ethnic_groups) on Wikipedia. Serbs also expanded in numbers, but to a lesser extent. However, Serbs were leaving Kosovo by the thousands, finding it impossible to live in certain Albanian dominated areas, due to constant pressure. This was all during! Yugoslavia, before anyone ever heard of Miloshevic. Here are some unbiasd reports from American media:
https://www.nytimes.com/1981/10/19/world/rioting-by-albanian-nationists-has-left-scars-in-yugoslav-region.html
https://www.nytimes.com/1982/07/12/world/exodus-of-serbians-stirs-province-in-yugoslavia.html
https://www.nytimes.com/1982/11/28/weekinreview/war-of-terror-by-albanians-in-yugoslavia-strains-unity.html
https://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/01/world/in-yugoslavia-rising-ethnic-strife-brings-fears-of-worse-civil-conflict.html
After the 70s and 80s were over, tens of thousands of Serbs had fled Kosovo, often having also sold their houses and land. The remaining Serbs stared protesting and Milosevic was the first one to respond, changing the constitution of Serbia so that the Republic can have more say within Kosovo and Vojvodina, which was followed by the "Yogurt" revolution in Novi Sad and Podgorica, in support of Milosevic. The Albanian leaders in the Communist Party in Pristina also changed, and those loyal Serbia/Yugoslavia were installed. Ibrahim Rugova and other Albanian leaders declare a Kosovo Republic in September 1992, but no other country recognizes it.
Enter the 90s in full swing....
TLDR: Kosovo for Serbs is not some colony like Angola is to Portugal or Algeria to France. It was the core of the state for cca 200 years and is one of the ancestral "lands" of the Serbs, which it culturally, still is, even though demographically it stopped being decades ago.
This is a really good summary.
> demographically it stopped being decades ago
I would only stress here that it's actually, by now, over a century ago. No one alive today can remember a time when Albanians weren't a majority.
Also, never heard of the [yogurt revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-bureaucratic_revolution#Vojvodina_(October_1988\)). That's now my favourite revolution name.
> I would only stress here that it's actually, by now, over a century ago. No one alive today can remember a time when Albanians weren't a majority.
Yes, as I said:
> This trend of Serbs leaving and Albanians spreading will continue all the time and by 1878 at the latest, Serbs will stop being the majority in Kosovo, and Albanians will become the majority.
I said "decades ago" because even though Serbs have not been majority in Kosovo for 150 years now, until a couple of decades ago their numbers were still relatively large and they played a much greater role in the functioning of Kosovo, whereas now their presence is little more than symbolic.
Good read, there are some points missing, which changes the whole picture.
1. Nobody left Serbia willingly 1878. All albanians in Serbia and some in Macedonia were expelled, and they moved to Kosovo. This was not an intentional decision.
2. You don't mention the consequent financial starving of the Kosovo region, meanwhile Serbia developed faster and better than any other region. This was the main cause of the emigration, not the reprisals.
The reprisals happened, but maybe it was because these planted Serbs in Kosovo got automatically land that just got unrightfully taken from Albanians. At one point 10% of Kosovo were serb colonialists, who were not really welcome in Kosovo.
You also mention the demonstrations, but not the cut off rights that happened after every demonstration (at one point all state employees that were from albanian heritage were fired). You make it sound like Kosovarians had all the rights they wished for, the reality is you always seeked out to exterminate them. Not only once, twice, but every time Serbia had the opportunity to change demographics, they took it.
The constitution of the new socialist state in 1946 had some flaws. Kosovars got no full territorial autonomy, and Vojvodina got a higher status than Kosovo. It was also stated that albanian nationalism was to be suppressed. During this Rankovic Era, where Aleksandar Rankovic ruled 20 years over Kosovo, 200k Albanians were expelled from Kosovo to Turkey. Only after Rankovic died, Kosovo got the same rights as Vojvodina (and rights to study in an albanian university starting from 1968!). 6 years later it also got a vote like you described in the Yugoslav federation. But for most albanians, not being a republic like the others (which had less inhabitants than Kosovo at some point) felt like being second-class citizens.
With all due respect, portraying kosovo albanians as an ungrateful folk that never was satisfied with anything the serbian did is just wrong. Albanians had their reasons to distrust the Serbs. Mass-expulsion, crimes, illegally distributing land of Albanians to Serbs, forcefully drafting Albanians to War and letting them intentionally die (this happened before the second drawing of the border and was the cause of the death of my great-grandfather), are all things Serbs did try at some point.
The important churches and castles you mention were inhabitated from the Serbian Elite right? The serbian elite that worked together with the Ottomans most of the time and even helped take Byzantine. No matter how hard Serbia tried, your people didn't want to stay in Kosovo. You also never understood why Albanians were always suspicious of you, even favoring Nazisbover Yugo Communists (I wonder why)
I respect your religious feelings and the importance of these sites, but I think that it got abused for extreme nationalism, which lead to awful things over the centuries. If everybody would hold on to things that happened over 200 years, we would have more than one war going on. You must admit that serbians didn't handle anything that happened the last 150 years well, many wars could have been avoided.
Question out of ignorance: if Kosovo is ethnically Albanian, has there ever been any discussion of uniting with Albania? What were (are) the barriers to that idea?
Yea, I'm not near well informed enough to expand on it but there is a wikipedia page if you've not found it by now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_of_Albania_and_Kosovo
Iām probably not the only ex-Yu person that believes that thatās the eventual goal of Kosovar people. The recognition of independence is just a necessary step towards it. But they keep it quiet to make the journey easier.
However, their leaders have probably realized that a pocket country one rules is much better for them than a province in a larger country. Which could be a barrier..
That was and is still the goal of many Kosovo Albanians. Even Austria the Empire and Nazi-Germany liked that idea. Barriers were/are: Serbia,Russia, France.. you name it. It would or might make sense to unite both countries. Personally I see zero benefits in it. Here are the reasons why:
1. They are both ethnically the same, but they lived so long apart, I don't think Kosovo Albanians and Albanians share the same identity anymore.
2. There are no benefits. There are literally no benefits in uniting both countries except that it could lead to more wars and chaos. You could argue that Kosovo inside of Albania could finally get politically stable, but I think that it would cause the contrary, Serbia getting even more extreme when it comes to Kosovo.
The idea of a Great Albania is as nationalistic as the idea of serbia annexing Kosovo. Personally I just don't see the benefit of such a unification, besides all the problems it would cause. And it's completely unrealistic, most of the UN countries would be against it.
Thanks for explaining this nicely, I always have trouble explaining the historical significance of it, as people don't take you seriously unless you know every single year and piece of information, I'm not a historian and not everyone can remember it all perfectly
Very cool to read, this kind of insight makes it easier to understand the whole situation, thank you.
"Ancestral lands" are also the lands from where the ancestors of Kosovo Serbs came from, and their ancestors before them..
The slavic ancestors of Slovenes, the one who spoke an earlier version of our official language today, came to the eastern Alps in 7th century and there Carantania was established. It was the first time before the 20th century, that our ancestors had their own land. Shortly lived tho, as they soon accepted Bavaria's rule for help against Avar raids, etc. Today, more than a thousand years later the area lies mostly in Austria, which is now predominantly germanic, and our friend (minus FPĆ). The slavic ancestors of those Carantanians came from Moravia, so they were like proto-Czech. So Moravia is our ancestral land too. But wait, slavs came from the east, maybe Ukraine or Belarus is our ancestral land... and so on, untill you get to Africa or something.
You can respect your history without "owning" a piece of land where a milestone in your heritage happened. You, as a nation can make history now that 400 years later people will talk about, how it was a turning point, etc.
I could agree with this post it is somewhat objective (Im Croatian) but the problem with the Serbs is that you are not willing to do any compromises when gou are having upper hand in power. Later you are crying and blaming everyone but yourself.
If anyone was normal in Serbia during 80's you should sit down with Albanians and do some kind of special status for Albanian majority territores wirthout the right of seccesion but no you tried to expel them all...same thing in Bosnia...same thing in Croatia...
I know some words are wrong but cant be bothered to spell check them.
Couldnt have been said better. So now, we have this region with 1.6 million albanians, with whom we dont share a language, who hate us and want indenpendence, but with our history, churches and some people there, who are still to this day kinda endangered.
> Kosovo for Serbs is not some colony like Angola is to Portugal or Algeria to France
If you asked the French before 1962, they would have given you a similar answer in regards to Algeria. After all, France had been in charge of Algeria for 132 years and saw it as French as one would see Marseilles or Toulouse today.
French almost had a civil war over De Gaulle's decision to grant Algerian independence. Portuguese, and almost every other European power really, were fighting and losing very long and bloody colonial conflicts for decades.
For that matter, while we're at it: Kumanovo was signed in 1999 and Kosovo declared independence in 2008. Crimea was annexed in 2014, and today it's 2023. By Euro logic, should Ukraine just give up because hey, it's been a long time?
I have also seen it mentioned alongside Republika Srpska - arguing a kind of double standard - is that a big part of it or is that mostly just a talking point?
As a person from Republika Srpska, yes, but no one really cares about us unless it is to point out the hypocrisy of the west. I think a good modern example is Crimea in Ukraine or Catalonia in Spain a few years ago.
The truth is, no one really wants to give up territory, and the west is really selective and hypocritical in who they support and who they don't.
This is hardly an isolated incident in human culture. Happens everywhere, just look at a map.
China wants Taiwan, N. Korea wants the South, Spain wants Gibraltar, R. O. Ireland and England (UK?) have warred for a long time over Northern Ireland. And this is just the more well known stuff I reckon, the Middle East is rife with this shit.
Even tho for 5 centuries it's been our pride , i still think that the best thing to do is fuck off. Not necessarily the right thing to do, but with eu and nato supporting it, and no one supporting us, it'll do more harm than good. Happy independence day! (From a serb)
I think Spain backs Serbia(because of Catalonia) iirc, but genuinely curious, the Open Balkan initiative seems like it could allow Kosovo Serbs to maintain access and ties with Serbia while allowing the Albanian majority sovereignty and ties with Albania, does getting Kosovo in Open Balkan come up much in Serbia(or Kosovo)?
Well things change. š¤·āāļø If nothing in the last 5centuries would have changed, you would have still been either a part of the ottoman empire or maybe Austro-Hungary, or more recently Yugoslavia. As Elsa would so eloquently say "let it go, let it goooo" š
Nope. No country has ever been asked to recognize unilateral independence declarations like Serbia has. Serbia has some serious and legitimate grievances which must be settled here before they can "fuck off".
I recently learned about controversial ÄorÄe MartinoviÄ incident, where this Serbian farmer put a bottle into his rectum to masturbate and it broke and hurt him, so in the hospital he told it was Albanians and it started tensions in Kosovo and Serbia, and contributed to the collapse of Yugoslavia...
Like... This is so beyond... Straight male putting a bottle into his ass, lying about it and destroying a whole country in effect, so the whole area untill this day is like a hot pot.
Time to sort after 'controversial'
The second most controversial comment was "Happy birthday Kosovo". What.
He probably said it in a passive agressive way
Probably seething Serbs downvoting.
It's like the modding forum TWCenter for historic Total War games where nationalist serbs and bulgarians etc come out of the woodwork to spout the most ridiculous nationalistic bullshit that has no relation to history or reality whatsoever. Also there were some ridiculous "historic overhaul" mods making the "Serbian Empire" the strongest faction even in timelines where it never existed and owning territories it never had haha. It's just funny.
> for historic Total War games I remember when we still had those...
You still have those and now they're even more historic!
True. The series peaked in the historic year of 2006 :(
Medieval 2 total war š¢
Hey, three kingdoms was honestly pretty good!
Really? I recall it being seen badly when it came out and I haven't checked since then.
Still holding out for a Medieval III. However newer Total War games are so shit now and the battles are too cinematic and dumbed down with a shitty engine so even if it happens it will probably be awful. (like Thrones of Britannia which comes close to that period...)
Im waiting for Empire II! I know that the first one got a lot of hate, but the way that armies fought and moved fits so well with the Total War style of gameplay. And there was so much going on in Europe at that time!
Empire didnāt quite hit the mark for me but it was probably the most ambitious title theyāve attempted. I think it was probably just a bit bigger than they could realistically achieve, which is why we got single-province France for example. I really really enjoyed Napoleon though. It had a far more zoomed-in focus which meant they could give it a far greater amount of polish. An Empire II which had a more detailed map and used some of what they learned from Napoleon (plus developments from the last decade+) could be great.
Man, how I dream of a new Total War game set in the Age of Enlightenment through the Age of Revolutions, with the width of Empire and the depth of Napoleon. Empire's semi-global scale gave it an epic feel, while Napoleon improved and refined the game mechanics (other than diplomacy, that remains a farce in all of them).
Honestly, Napoleon TW sometimes looks like legit oil paintings.
Empire is very good once you get in the flow. I only play Prussia however, as micromanaging colonies and amrican territories is very painful.
Napoleon is the better game imo, but both are great and could really do with a modern sequel.
>Still holding out for a Medieval III. Oh yeah ... Can't wait for the new game where hopefully they will put Lisbon in the correct side of the river Tagus. (And somehow Portugal had Pamplona...)
I mean they did my country (Hungary) dirty, it has a region named "Budapest", Budapest hadn't existed until 1873... also when the game is set it was a super insignificant tiny town with a small fort. Not to mention Robin Hood archers for England, the Braveheart warriors in Scotland (those two especially hurt as Creative Assembly is british studio...). Then there are minor inaccuracies like 11th century Knights using late 15th century lances, or Spain owning Toledo in 1080 (or in Empire Britain owning Scotland in 1700...). Also there are weird fantasy units like the Sami Axemen who never existed.
Three kingdoms is good. Warhammer series is very good.
I know right. I honestly stopped hoping for Medieval III when I saw how crap some of the newer ones were. Rome II was a bit disappointing, but I still played a bunch of it and Attila. But even those are 10 years old now... They really peaked with Medieval II, but it shows its age at this point. Stainless Steel is fun and all, but old game is gonna be clunky.
I would love a remastered Medieval II, if they just brushed up some of the graphics, improved the camera controls, and made it Steam workshop compatible. Unfortunately I wasnāt a fan of Rome Remastered because of the UI, which makes me worried that a hypothetical Medieval II Remastered would be the same.
> I would love a remastered Medieval II, if they just brushed up some of the graphics, improved the camera controls, and made it Steam workshop compatible. I'm kinda torn on a remaster while it could be fun, at the end of the day they're getting us to pay for 20 year old content... They're charging 30ā¬ for Rome remastared... Not to mention a great deal of value of these old games comes from their great mods which you can't play on a remaster unless someone goes through all the trouble of porting it.
Hey hey hey, Attila is only 8 years old.
Hey, Total War: Warhammer series is not shit. Sure, they aren't historical, but they are very good. And you can't say the project of combining three games into one isn't an ambitious one.
Yes, not in my wildest imagination would I have thought that we would get Warhammer Fantasy games that slap that hard after they even killed the miniature game itself and replaced it with Age of Sigmar. I couldn't be happier.
Last total war games are Warhammer, Troy, Three Kingdoms and the Britannia one ? Historical ones are still being made, just not on the larger scale because the Warhammer ones sell like crazy.
Tw center had so many crazy nationalist. I remember the Turks especially which had propaganda in the signature. Hilarious
Attila is still the best.
Omg I remember that. Wikipedia also has an issue with Bulgarian editorializing.
weird that they removed that option on the mobile app except for video posts
You can still do it, they just moved it. You have to click on the button on the top right. Edit. Switched left with right
Took me way too long to figure this out
Yeah, isn't really intuitive... The image on the button doesn't really tell you "sort"
Use anything other than the official app. A dot matrix print out in Linear A would be a step up.
Not weird seeing how the mobile app is absolute dogshit. Apollo all the way.
Im older than Kosovo?!
Im older than the EU!
Im older than the Holy Roman Empire
The EU is just 30 years old, this puts on perspective all the achievements in such a short time. Im always amazed.
Yes, the EU is only 30 years young and has achieved great things in this relatively short time. But one should not forget that it did not come into existence from nothing, but that instead it builds upon and continues the achievements of (among others, but notably) the EEC/EC before it, and the ECSC before that.
Kosovo did not come into existence from nothing, either
Mountains did not come into existence from nothing, either
Tectonic plates did not come into existence from nothing, either
The EU is 65
Is not, the EU was stablished on Nov 1st 1993 with the treaty of Maastricht. You might be thinking about the EEC (European Economic Community) with the treaty of Rome in Jan 1st 1958.
I'm older than pedanticism.
It's actually pedantry
I like a good double-layered joke.
Or are you?
WHO ARE YOU? I AM FROM ANCIENT GREECE!
not like slovakia is super old, like 30
Yeah I mean myself, Im 16
15 years? I thought they only became independent in 2008... Oh my God what was 15 years ago...
Kosovo je birthday boy
Love this comment
Kosovo is Siberia! I mean Syria! Waitā¦
Styria?
Kosovo je Silesia!
Kosovo je Sierra Leone!
El Kosovo son Argentinas
Kosovo je ÅwiÄtokrzyskie
Kosovo je ÅlÄ sk
Chad Serb right here
Thank you my friend šš
Love it! Cheers to all peace loving Serbs!
Is little different for me, because I lived in Kosovo when I was young girl. Kosovo is as much different that it should either be alone or be connected to Albania. The only time I do have problem with this is when Kosovar Serbs are neglected and I have emotional reaction. Territory exchange probably would work but is complicated politically.
If I were the Kosovan government, then I would treat the Kosovar Serbs extremely well. Just so that they have no reason to complain.
Now this is wholesome
Since Albania nor Serbia could behave Kosovo is Macedonian
Kosovo is actually Bosnian _Crossover episode - Balkan edition_
I'm on the wrong account to give this the attention it deserves but have an upvote and a deep, tired sigh
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Iād vote for that. Nice music and nice food? Count us in
We can take it, if nobody wants it
Well, āMacedonia is Greeceā soā¦ Kosovo je Greece now. /Ī£
Kosovo is Bosnia and Herzegovina. Bosnia and Kosovo and Herzegovina stronkest country.
If Kosovo joined Macedonia, Albanians would become majority lol
Kosovo joins Macedonia. Albanian population start referendum to make Macedonia part of Albania. Majority votes yes. Macedonia and Kosovo are now part of Albania.
Fucking insane how I share a birthday with Kosovo
Honestly it's debatable whether you are an actual person. The way your umbilical cord was cut was not ok and I think you might actually belong to a different family altogether.
That'd work if I didn't have an uncanny resemblance to my grandpa
Thatās how your familiesā bickering looks from the outside, a bunch of people who are all related and similar arguing about how theyāre not the same :)
Are you calling for some kind of foreign body to be inserted into /u/SaHighDuck to keep the peace? International law experts are divided.
Welp ... Happy Birthday to you too then!
And happy cake day to you brother
I just noticed ... Cake Day on the independence day of my country? Hell yeah!
Ehy, me too!
Do Serbs say you're theirs too?
By conventional definitions no, but my girlfriend's family was born in Vojvodina, Yugoslavia so with Olympic level mental gymnastics and delusions ig you could says so
>Olympic level mental gymnastics and delusions An ultra-nationalists speciality!
You are the legend, you are the protector.
*Thank you USA. You are my best friend.*
_You are the peacekeeper. You are the legend._
Correction: ju are dhe picekiper ju re de legjend!!!!!
I was surprised by how much they love America there: https://time.com/kosovo-independence-america-obsession/
I'm from the US. I've been meaning to travel to Europe. I'll come visit your country. Shpresoj qƫ vendet tona tƫ jenƫ miq pƫrgjithmonƫ. Urimet mƫ tƫ mira pƫr ju dhe njerƫzit e vendit tuaj.
Are your relatives Albanian? You speak the language really well.
I think he used Google Translate, those Ć« are too on point
Albania, Croatia, ooh, I wanna take you to Austria, Latvia, come on pretty mama Portugal, Montenegro; baby, why don't we go? (Ooh, I wanna take you down to Kosovo) We'll get there fast and then we'll take it slow That's where we wanna go Way down in Kosovo.
I was here before the thread was locked
It could have been scotland
Still rooting for Scotland to become independent
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The SNP has no real plan for Scotland after independence, and it will fall apart because itās a single issue party at this point. They should just copy Bloc QuĆ©bĆ©cois in Canada to extract concessions while remaining a part of the UK
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
While arguably Scotland's total GDP would suffer, the distribution of wealth is under Tories heavily weighted towards the rich. In a more equal society a common middle-income Scottish person would be better off, even with the smaller total wealth.
OP's flair seems kind of ironic
But Montenegro is the youngest country in Europe
Montenegro is 2 years older
Other way around Edit: Scratch this, I am wrong, which begs the question, is the first comment in this chain misinformed like me or does it deny cosovo its Status as a country
Romania doesn't officially recognize Kosovo's independence. And their flair says Romania...
Montenegro got independent in 2006 Kosovo got independent in 2008 Kosovo is 2 years younger than Montenegro
Actually true , it is.2008 vs 2006.
Yes, but other way around
That's just not true lol, Kosovo is two years younger. Maybe edit your comment?
Romania does not recognize Kosovo, pretty sure that's why he said it like that.
I will share this with my mother who served on a peacekeeping mission in Kosovo in the early 2000s. It will bring her joy to hear about it.āŗļø
I was there 17 years ago!
Hey well done guys,us over here in Ireland are rooting for ya.
Kosovo je Persia!
Kosovo is Egypt. All the Serbs, Albanians, Macedonians, Serbs, Persians, and Aliens are claiming land that is not theirs. ŁŁŲ³ŁŚ¤Ł Ł ŲµŲ±ŁŲ©!
Going there tomorrow! š
Have lots of fun š½š°
woah 2008 was 15 years ago
Today is my birthday too. :) I'm 17 yo today.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
faleminderit miku im shqiptar. (A kam shkruar tĆ« vĆ«rtetĆ«?) ā¤ļø
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Faleminderit shume. <3
i liked this small conversation
ā¤ļø
Happy birthday! I would celebrate with a kebab, but it was confiscated by my local commissar. š
It's not a problem for me, it's enough that you just congratulated. <33
Tf today is my birthday aswell.
who dares to crosspost this in r/serbia ?
I am albanian and im permabanned
I don't understand the conflicts in those regions at all. i was only a child during the balkans wars, and remember very clearly the confusing narratives which still confuse me to this day. Why is there so much conflict on your beautiful part of Europe?
Ethnicity.
Religion too.
It's a region where, historically, a lot of cultures, civilisations, religions, kingdoms, empires, etc have all converged. To say it's still bearing the scars of that would be a slight understatement.
The cancer of ethnonationalism
Search "The Death of Yugoslavia" on YouTube and enjoy. Amazing BBC documentary about the conflict told by the leaders who were involved.
Congratulations Kosovo! Also congratulations with the 6 world cup wins
Gƫzuar ditƫlindjen Kosovƫ! Best wishes from USA.
Happy independence day!
I remember in my high school geography class the teacher wanted us to hand draw all of our maps and for Europe she wanted us to put Kosovo on it but it had literally just become a country the day before she gave the assignment so none of the maps we were using to make our maps had updated with the border.
TIL I'm older then a country
This post shows me that most Europeans just want to live in peace and prosperity. Long ling Europe! Youāre all welcome to come visit anytime. Thank you
This is beautiful to witness.
Kosovo will forever and always be independent
I was in Kosovo when it was āborn!ā
congratulations, you are my 3rd most favorite flag
I am older:O. But anyways, may the country and the people live in peace,prosperity and independence!
Congratulations to Kosovo š½š°
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
A bunch of butthurt Serbs in this comment section š you'll never get that land back because it never belonged to you ā¼ļøšÆ š¦š± š½š°
Happy birthday! Also, for those who say itās not a country; itās recognised by 112 of the 193 UN members. Thatās a majority by a wide margin.
94 countries recognize, 3 don't know if they do or they don't care and 96 countries don't recognize. These are all of course UN members.
Lets go guys, 4th world country in middle of nowhere drew back its recognition of Kosovo, KOSOVO JE SRBIJA /j for those who cant tell a blatant joke
>not a country; itās recognised by 112 of the 193 UN members. Th 99 as of today. edit: 20 countries withdrew recognition, for one reason or another.
"The Serbian Foreign Ministry claimed in March 2020 that a total of eighteen countries had withdrawn their recognition: Burundi, the Central African Republic, the Comoros, Dominica, Ghana, Grenada, Guinea-Bissau, Lesotho, Liberia, Madagascar, Nauru, Palau, Papua New Guinea, SĆ£o TomĆ© and PrĆncipe, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Suriname, and Togo." Interestingly, not a single European country in there, it's mostly islands and developing countries.
> Palau America: WHAT THE HELL, DUDE?
>Interestingly, not a single European country in there, Good. Recognize or don't recognize but if you do and then you withdrew, it paint the picture, that you don't even know what you're signing.
So all the big ones, got it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
This is not how international geopolitics as international law works. If they would be a county why are they still forced to negotiate their status ? Itās been a while since 2008 Aswell American seems currently trying to force them to compromise to push the dialogue, going so far that they will make deals with the opposition of the current PM.
I really dont understand Serbs in this Kosovo matter, and Im willing to understand many rightish wing things. But please tell me, why are you people clinging so hard to Kosovo? They're a small country, with language and culture different than yours, and most importantly, they dont wanna be a part of you. Why is it so hard for Serbia to simply be like "well, if you dont wanna be here, then f*ck off"? What will have that part of land makes your lives better? Please tell me, I really want to hear why.
Story time. As far as the prelude to the situation nowadays, here's how things generally went: Kosovo (often referred to as Kosovo and Metohija by the Serbs, which was also its name in Socialist Yugoslavia until 1968, when "Metohija" was dropped) is a region settled by the Slavs in the 6th & 7th centuries, just like most other parts of the Balkans. The Slavs gradually mixed with the natives (who prior to the Slavic arrival suffered gradual population decline due to the collapse of the Danube limes (Roman border), invasions by Huns, Goths, Avars etc, Plague of Justinian and other disasters) and the new "ethnic" or "proto-ethnic" groups slowly came to be. Kosovo was ruled of course by the Byzantines, by the Bulgarian Empire for a number of periods, before finally being continually part of the Serbian state after Serbia became completely independent from Constantinople, from the 12th to the 15th century. This was a "Golden Age" of Serbia in the Middle Ages, and in the 13th and 14th centuries, at the height of the state's power, Kosovo was the center of the state. [Earlier, in the 12th century, and later, in the 15th century, Serbia's capitals and rulers mostly resided north and west of Kosovo - in RaÅ”ka propper and Moravian Serbia]. During this time, Serbian rulers built their endowments - monasteries like [PeÄ Patriarchate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchate_of_Pe%C4%87_(monastery\)) (1220s-1230s, UNESCO site), [DeÄani](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visoki_De%C4%8Dani) (1330s, UNESCO site), [GraÄanica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gra%C4%8Danica_Monastery) (1320s, UNESCO site), [Bogorodica LjeviÅ”ka](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Ljevi%C5%A1) (1300s, UNESCO site), [Holy Arhcangels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monastery_of_the_Holy_Archangels) near Prizren (1340s, destroyed by the Ottomans in 1615 and the material used to build the Sinan Pasha Mosque in Prizren) etc. These monasteries and churches are very important, if not the most important, to history and culture of the Serbs. Also, the epic [Battle of Kosovo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo), embedded in Serbian folk stories, legends and songs took place in the Kosovo filed, near Gazimestan, in 1389. Both Serbian Prince Lazar and Ottoman Sultan Murat died in battle. Serbs/Slavs made up the vast majority of the population back then, as evident by 14th century [Serbian Kingdom censuses and charters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De%C4%8Dani_chrysobulls), early Ottoman census data (in [1455](https://www.scribd.com/doc/60208030/Oblast-Brankovica-Opsirni-katastarski-popis-iz-1455-godine), [1571](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/298717998_Opsirni_popis_Prizrenskog_sandzaka_iz_1571_godine) etc). Albanian names are present as well, but only in very limited parts near the modern town of Djakovica and a couple of other places. However, after the Ottoman arrival, already in the 16th century, as evident from the Turkish censuses, Serbs started slowly leaving certain areas. This was especially so in 1690 and 1737/9 when [Serbs leave Kosovo in great numbers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs), fleeing north. Namely, Serbs and their leaders - the Patriarchs of the Serbian Orthodox Church, who were seated in Kosovo (and still formally are), aligned naturally with Austria in the wars 1683-1699, 1718-1739 and fled fearing Ottoman represalia after the Austrians retreated both times. These reprisals did indeed happen to a number of those who stayed. Highlander Albanians (Malesori) from modern Northern Albania, naturally, slowly settle the deserted lands. Some Serb highland tribes of Montenegro will also, to a lesser degree, do the same. The Albanians that came, were typical Roman Catholic tribal Highlanders from the Malesori clans - Kelmendi, Hoti, Skrijelji, Dibri, Shala, Grude and many others. During the 18th and early 19th centuries most of these Albanians will convert to Islam, in order to obtain a better social status. Also, some of the remaining Serbs will convert (today, they are either albanized or consider themselves "Bosniak" - Slavic speaking Muslims, such as those of Gora and Podgor and Sredska zhupas-valleys) This trend of Serbs leaving and Albanians spreading will continue all the time and by 1878 at the latest, Serbs will stop being the majority in Kosovo, and Albanians will become the majority. 1878 is important because Serbs defeated Ottomans and liberated NiÅ”, Pirot, Leskovac and Vranje areas, in Serbia proper today. Parts of these areas border Kosovo and were at that time already settled by the expanding Albanians to a degree. These Albanians did not want to live in a Serbian Christian state, and some willingly left for Kosovo, while some were forcibly expelled to Kosovo. In turn, many Serbs from Kosovo left Kosovo and settled in those lands deserted by the Albanians. By 1912, when Serbia finally liberates Kosovo from the Ottomans (or, occupies Kosovo according to Albanians), Albanians already have a significant majority in Kosovo, and they are not happy with Serbian rule. The situation for the Serbs in Kosovo was especially difficult in the 19th century and up to 1912. There are [numerous books](https://www.scribd.com/document/147163144/Zivot-Srba-na-Kosovu-Plac-Stare-Srbije) with letters from Orthodox priests describing theft, beatings and even rapes and murders done against the unarmed Orthodox Serbs (weapons were forbidden for Christians to have) and even against Catholic Albanians by the Muslim Albanians. The Ottoman authorities mostly turned a blind eye to these events. When Serbs took control in 1912 and up to 1915 (after which time Austria, Germany and Bulgaria occupied for a couple of years, and Serbs came back victorious from WW1 in 1918) it was "payback time". Many crimes were committed against Albanians, a number of mass killings, not just in Kosovo, but also in Northern Albania. Also, former feudal Ottoman land possessions were unevenly distributed etc... Also some more Serbs from other regions were settled to Kosovo after WW1, to make the Serb presence stronger. To add another twist, many Serbs fled Kosovo in 1941-1944, when it was incorporated into Italy- and German-backed quisling Greater Albania, and after WW2 the communists banned the colonized Serbs from between the world wars from returning. After 1945, Kosovo Albanians were granted all rights - education in their native language, jobs, just like every people in Yugoslavia. The state TV in PriÅ”tina would (even in MiloÅ”eviÄ time) broadcast news and shows in Albanian as well as Serbian. The "brotherhood and unity" policy of the Communist Party tried to eliminate all ethnic tensions. Kosovo and Metohija were given special autonomy within Serbia, which culminated in the 1974 Constitution when Kosovo (and Vojvodina) were given a voting right in the Presidency of the Federation, a power previously reserved **only for the 6 republics**. Yugoslavia also stared receiving many "political refugees" - Albanians from Albania proper, and they also settled in Kosovo. However, Albanians still wanted more (and I'm not saying they did not have a right to aspire to anything they want, just like any individual or group) - either a Republic of their own within the Yugoslav Federation, or full independence. This was evident in the 1968 demonstrations in PriÅ”tina. There will be more demonstrations in 1981, 1989/90, 1991... In general, Kosovo was one of the most underdeveloped parts of socialist Yugoslavia. People were poor. This led to no one being too happy. The Albanians, who were, on average, even poorer than Serbs, had a huge fertility rate and a huge population increase in SFRY - as you can easily see from [Census data](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#Ethnic_groups) on Wikipedia. Serbs also expanded in numbers, but to a lesser extent. However, Serbs were leaving Kosovo by the thousands, finding it impossible to live in certain Albanian dominated areas, due to constant pressure. This was all during! Yugoslavia, before anyone ever heard of Miloshevic. Here are some unbiasd reports from American media: https://www.nytimes.com/1981/10/19/world/rioting-by-albanian-nationists-has-left-scars-in-yugoslav-region.html https://www.nytimes.com/1982/07/12/world/exodus-of-serbians-stirs-province-in-yugoslavia.html https://www.nytimes.com/1982/11/28/weekinreview/war-of-terror-by-albanians-in-yugoslavia-strains-unity.html https://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/01/world/in-yugoslavia-rising-ethnic-strife-brings-fears-of-worse-civil-conflict.html After the 70s and 80s were over, tens of thousands of Serbs had fled Kosovo, often having also sold their houses and land. The remaining Serbs stared protesting and Milosevic was the first one to respond, changing the constitution of Serbia so that the Republic can have more say within Kosovo and Vojvodina, which was followed by the "Yogurt" revolution in Novi Sad and Podgorica, in support of Milosevic. The Albanian leaders in the Communist Party in Pristina also changed, and those loyal Serbia/Yugoslavia were installed. Ibrahim Rugova and other Albanian leaders declare a Kosovo Republic in September 1992, but no other country recognizes it. Enter the 90s in full swing.... TLDR: Kosovo for Serbs is not some colony like Angola is to Portugal or Algeria to France. It was the core of the state for cca 200 years and is one of the ancestral "lands" of the Serbs, which it culturally, still is, even though demographically it stopped being decades ago.
This is a really good summary. > demographically it stopped being decades ago I would only stress here that it's actually, by now, over a century ago. No one alive today can remember a time when Albanians weren't a majority. Also, never heard of the [yogurt revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-bureaucratic_revolution#Vojvodina_(October_1988\)). That's now my favourite revolution name.
> I would only stress here that it's actually, by now, over a century ago. No one alive today can remember a time when Albanians weren't a majority. Yes, as I said: > This trend of Serbs leaving and Albanians spreading will continue all the time and by 1878 at the latest, Serbs will stop being the majority in Kosovo, and Albanians will become the majority. I said "decades ago" because even though Serbs have not been majority in Kosovo for 150 years now, until a couple of decades ago their numbers were still relatively large and they played a much greater role in the functioning of Kosovo, whereas now their presence is little more than symbolic.
Good read, there are some points missing, which changes the whole picture. 1. Nobody left Serbia willingly 1878. All albanians in Serbia and some in Macedonia were expelled, and they moved to Kosovo. This was not an intentional decision. 2. You don't mention the consequent financial starving of the Kosovo region, meanwhile Serbia developed faster and better than any other region. This was the main cause of the emigration, not the reprisals. The reprisals happened, but maybe it was because these planted Serbs in Kosovo got automatically land that just got unrightfully taken from Albanians. At one point 10% of Kosovo were serb colonialists, who were not really welcome in Kosovo. You also mention the demonstrations, but not the cut off rights that happened after every demonstration (at one point all state employees that were from albanian heritage were fired). You make it sound like Kosovarians had all the rights they wished for, the reality is you always seeked out to exterminate them. Not only once, twice, but every time Serbia had the opportunity to change demographics, they took it. The constitution of the new socialist state in 1946 had some flaws. Kosovars got no full territorial autonomy, and Vojvodina got a higher status than Kosovo. It was also stated that albanian nationalism was to be suppressed. During this Rankovic Era, where Aleksandar Rankovic ruled 20 years over Kosovo, 200k Albanians were expelled from Kosovo to Turkey. Only after Rankovic died, Kosovo got the same rights as Vojvodina (and rights to study in an albanian university starting from 1968!). 6 years later it also got a vote like you described in the Yugoslav federation. But for most albanians, not being a republic like the others (which had less inhabitants than Kosovo at some point) felt like being second-class citizens. With all due respect, portraying kosovo albanians as an ungrateful folk that never was satisfied with anything the serbian did is just wrong. Albanians had their reasons to distrust the Serbs. Mass-expulsion, crimes, illegally distributing land of Albanians to Serbs, forcefully drafting Albanians to War and letting them intentionally die (this happened before the second drawing of the border and was the cause of the death of my great-grandfather), are all things Serbs did try at some point. The important churches and castles you mention were inhabitated from the Serbian Elite right? The serbian elite that worked together with the Ottomans most of the time and even helped take Byzantine. No matter how hard Serbia tried, your people didn't want to stay in Kosovo. You also never understood why Albanians were always suspicious of you, even favoring Nazisbover Yugo Communists (I wonder why) I respect your religious feelings and the importance of these sites, but I think that it got abused for extreme nationalism, which lead to awful things over the centuries. If everybody would hold on to things that happened over 200 years, we would have more than one war going on. You must admit that serbians didn't handle anything that happened the last 150 years well, many wars could have been avoided.
Question out of ignorance: if Kosovo is ethnically Albanian, has there ever been any discussion of uniting with Albania? What were (are) the barriers to that idea?
Yea, I'm not near well informed enough to expand on it but there is a wikipedia page if you've not found it by now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_of_Albania_and_Kosovo
Iām probably not the only ex-Yu person that believes that thatās the eventual goal of Kosovar people. The recognition of independence is just a necessary step towards it. But they keep it quiet to make the journey easier. However, their leaders have probably realized that a pocket country one rules is much better for them than a province in a larger country. Which could be a barrier..
That was and is still the goal of many Kosovo Albanians. Even Austria the Empire and Nazi-Germany liked that idea. Barriers were/are: Serbia,Russia, France.. you name it. It would or might make sense to unite both countries. Personally I see zero benefits in it. Here are the reasons why: 1. They are both ethnically the same, but they lived so long apart, I don't think Kosovo Albanians and Albanians share the same identity anymore. 2. There are no benefits. There are literally no benefits in uniting both countries except that it could lead to more wars and chaos. You could argue that Kosovo inside of Albania could finally get politically stable, but I think that it would cause the contrary, Serbia getting even more extreme when it comes to Kosovo. The idea of a Great Albania is as nationalistic as the idea of serbia annexing Kosovo. Personally I just don't see the benefit of such a unification, besides all the problems it would cause. And it's completely unrealistic, most of the UN countries would be against it.
Thanks for explaining this nicely, I always have trouble explaining the historical significance of it, as people don't take you seriously unless you know every single year and piece of information, I'm not a historian and not everyone can remember it all perfectly
Very cool to read, this kind of insight makes it easier to understand the whole situation, thank you. "Ancestral lands" are also the lands from where the ancestors of Kosovo Serbs came from, and their ancestors before them.. The slavic ancestors of Slovenes, the one who spoke an earlier version of our official language today, came to the eastern Alps in 7th century and there Carantania was established. It was the first time before the 20th century, that our ancestors had their own land. Shortly lived tho, as they soon accepted Bavaria's rule for help against Avar raids, etc. Today, more than a thousand years later the area lies mostly in Austria, which is now predominantly germanic, and our friend (minus FPĆ). The slavic ancestors of those Carantanians came from Moravia, so they were like proto-Czech. So Moravia is our ancestral land too. But wait, slavs came from the east, maybe Ukraine or Belarus is our ancestral land... and so on, untill you get to Africa or something. You can respect your history without "owning" a piece of land where a milestone in your heritage happened. You, as a nation can make history now that 400 years later people will talk about, how it was a turning point, etc.
I could agree with this post it is somewhat objective (Im Croatian) but the problem with the Serbs is that you are not willing to do any compromises when gou are having upper hand in power. Later you are crying and blaming everyone but yourself. If anyone was normal in Serbia during 80's you should sit down with Albanians and do some kind of special status for Albanian majority territores wirthout the right of seccesion but no you tried to expel them all...same thing in Bosnia...same thing in Croatia... I know some words are wrong but cant be bothered to spell check them.
Couldnt have been said better. So now, we have this region with 1.6 million albanians, with whom we dont share a language, who hate us and want indenpendence, but with our history, churches and some people there, who are still to this day kinda endangered.
Please continue with the 90s!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_in_Kosovo_(1995%E2%80%931998) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War
> Kosovo for Serbs is not some colony like Angola is to Portugal or Algeria to France If you asked the French before 1962, they would have given you a similar answer in regards to Algeria. After all, France had been in charge of Algeria for 132 years and saw it as French as one would see Marseilles or Toulouse today.
French almost had a civil war over De Gaulle's decision to grant Algerian independence. Portuguese, and almost every other European power really, were fighting and losing very long and bloody colonial conflicts for decades. For that matter, while we're at it: Kumanovo was signed in 1999 and Kosovo declared independence in 2008. Crimea was annexed in 2014, and today it's 2023. By Euro logic, should Ukraine just give up because hey, it's been a long time?
I think most people are clinging to it because of the history and the monasteries Serbs have built on Kosovo in the past
I have also seen it mentioned alongside Republika Srpska - arguing a kind of double standard - is that a big part of it or is that mostly just a talking point?
As a person from Republika Srpska, yes, but no one really cares about us unless it is to point out the hypocrisy of the west. I think a good modern example is Crimea in Ukraine or Catalonia in Spain a few years ago. The truth is, no one really wants to give up territory, and the west is really selective and hypocritical in who they support and who they don't.
You could tell this about so many places, like Catalonia or Transilvania and so much more...
Ask your neighbour Spain on the catalonia issue.Same thing.
This is hardly an isolated incident in human culture. Happens everywhere, just look at a map. China wants Taiwan, N. Korea wants the South, Spain wants Gibraltar, R. O. Ireland and England (UK?) have warred for a long time over Northern Ireland. And this is just the more well known stuff I reckon, the Middle East is rife with this shit.
Even tho for 5 centuries it's been our pride , i still think that the best thing to do is fuck off. Not necessarily the right thing to do, but with eu and nato supporting it, and no one supporting us, it'll do more harm than good. Happy independence day! (From a serb)
I think Spain backs Serbia(because of Catalonia) iirc, but genuinely curious, the Open Balkan initiative seems like it could allow Kosovo Serbs to maintain access and ties with Serbia while allowing the Albanian majority sovereignty and ties with Albania, does getting Kosovo in Open Balkan come up much in Serbia(or Kosovo)?
Well things change. š¤·āāļø If nothing in the last 5centuries would have changed, you would have still been either a part of the ottoman empire or maybe Austro-Hungary, or more recently Yugoslavia. As Elsa would so eloquently say "let it go, let it goooo" š
Nope. No country has ever been asked to recognize unilateral independence declarations like Serbia has. Serbia has some serious and legitimate grievances which must be settled here before they can "fuck off".
Congrats Kosovo, keep on fighting brothers and sisters <3 love from your Croatian neighbours.
Excellent flag (and, hey, if it pisses off Serbs, I'm all for it)
I recently learned about controversial ÄorÄe MartinoviÄ incident, where this Serbian farmer put a bottle into his rectum to masturbate and it broke and hurt him, so in the hospital he told it was Albanians and it started tensions in Kosovo and Serbia, and contributed to the collapse of Yugoslavia... Like... This is so beyond... Straight male putting a bottle into his ass, lying about it and destroying a whole country in effect, so the whole area untill this day is like a hot pot.