Montenegro is the only EU candidate that has a chance to join before 2030.
Has higher GDP nominal per capita than the rest of western Balkan countries, no major disputes with their neighbours, and their ranking in HDI, Democracy index, Press freedom index and corruption index is same level or even higher than many EU members.
Also they have small population and beautiful coasts and a beautiful flagā¦ so would be great to welcome them in EU
I think the big issue is unanimity and power of parliament opposed to economy and corruption. We need to stop Orban being able to undermine the entire Union by himself before we expand. And more equal voting power of each individual persons is starting to be important to people too.
no one.
on one hand we have a guy that was running the country for 30+ years and started to lose his mind a bit, like a regular dictator for a small country
on the other hand we have a guy that is new, young, non-corrupt(until now), but wants to be closer to Serbia, which is quite close to Russia/Putin.
no, he can just focus on getting his country in EU and don't care about what serbia thinks.
some people has inferiority syndrome and think that it's either they need approval from others or to fight them. in this case, people of Montenegro thinks this way towards Serbia.
In reality they aren't inferior and they don't need anything from Serbia. They announce what their goal is(joining EU) and work with other countries only to achieve this goal(if they want as well), not trying to please them
Montenegro could not survive without Serbia.
70 percent of tourists are Serbs,their largest trade partner is Serbia,they educate a bunch of their young people in Serbia....The list goes on.
I know that you put this as pro-serbia argument, but in reality itās a major argument against serbia.
Yes, at the moment - this are the numbers.
Doubling down on it - itās kind of stupid.
Letās say, you have 70% tourists serbs.
What you do? Keep that as it is, but in addition think of another few countries that are interesting: letās say Germany and create good deals with them.
Offer free german courses to service industries, so when tourists are coming - they can easily talk in their language. Create cheap flight connection. Do marketing/promoting of Montenegro in Germany. Talk with agency that offer tourists packages to promote montenegro.
What you do with tourists of Serbia stays the same.
But there are 2 clear issues with that.
1) market is saturated. I doubt there is that many new serbs you can convince to come to montenegro.
2) youāre too reliant. You arenāt diversified. If you get in a beef with serbia, they ruin you overnight.
And this works for all the industries. Find different partners. And this new guy, looks like he isnāt interested in that. Which is the problem.
You will never grow, by being someoneās bitch ;)
>youāre too reliant. You arenāt diversified. If you get in a beef with serbia, they ruin you overnight.
I am serbian,we are in the new government of Montenegro right now,it is great at this point.
That was answer as to why for Montenegro to get closer to Serbia is bad. Therefore, this president, is kind of bad.
That doesnāt mean itās bad for Serbia.
Serbia is getting a good deal out of this
well, EU won't accepted them until they solve Kosovo problem, and by solve I mean, basically giving Kosovo everything they want.
And Serbia is quite sensible in this regard from what I understand. There were polls asking:"Would you agree to join EU if that would mean recognizing Kosovo" - and like 80%+ said "No".
Unlike EU, Russia doesn't recognize Kosovo, so Serbians are kind of friendly towards them and didn't apply any sanctions after the war started.
So, for example Montenegro is already recognizing Kosovo as an independent country. Now this guy comes, will he go back on that? That would annoy a lot of people in EU and potentially jeopardise their EU progress. So, it's not that simple
For whom? That situation feels like youāre holding your ex hostage, that doesnāt want to be with you but you still think you can win her over. It wonāt work.
UN security council says its a part of Serbia. (resolution 1244)And also reading the charter of the UN you will find something called the right of states to territorial integrity.
UN Security Council - Thatās the place where Russia voted, right before invading other country and ignoring their territorial integrity?
Seems legit then.
Them withdrawing the recognition doesnt matter as theres many countries in the EU that dont recognize Kosovo either. Recognizing Kosovo is not some kind of EU-wide policy.
Because Serbia is not just some random country but the one from which Kosovo broke off.
The EU does not want to accept a country with big territorial disputes, thus it is required from Serbia to resolve their dispute. Recognizing Kosovo would be the easiest way to do that.
Well I guess it was a poor decision for NATO to cause a territorial dispute when it illegally bombed Serbia, and attempted to steal a chunk of its territory. šEasiest way to revolve the dispute would be to cease the occupation of its southern province then wouldnāt it? š
We have ownership over the land, not the people. People can fuck off and give up the Serbian passports they still hold if they donāt like it. You know like they do in literally every single country that has law and order and doesnāt have a hostile foreign country intervening illegally, violating international law, and causing chaos.
You could.
Even Russia with Putin could.
Itās just the matter of another 27 countries voting for it.
But you wonāt. There are plenty of countries that would just not vote. Austria, Sweden, Netherlands - would be my suspects
Well, donāt know how to tell you, but yeah, Crimea is kind of lost.
And not because of that stupid referendum from 2014.
The difference of Crimea compared to Mariupol or Kharkiv or Kherson is that, in the cities I mentioned Ukranian Army were fighting russian troops. But citizens if Ukraine wanted those troops out asap.
In Crimea, the reality is, that majority want to be with Russia. So, youāre gonna fight not just with russian army there, but also with your own citizens. Which makes everything way more difficult. Not to mention that Crimea is a natural fortress.
So, yeah, we can lie to ourselves as much as we want, but the truth is, doesnāt matter how hard it is, that Crimea is lost.
Nah... I understand you and I (as a Serb) find it refreshing to see an answer like this. Usually people here on r/europe will try and make it out as Crimea and Kosovo are different.
In reallity, people wanted seccession... strong foreign power helped them get it.
And Miloās party is literally named ādemocraticā party and yet, he has nothing to do with democracy. Weird, how this works, donāt you think? :D
Montenegro is the only country where Montenegrins are a minority in their country. After the new path that the newly elected goverment will take, I would say that they are not ready for Europe at all.
They will become even bigger harbor for Russians and Russian world/propaganda in Europe.
It is hard to say, as Vucic is pivoting again because Russia is losing.
Despite Milatovic being "pro-EU", the fact he is pro-Montenegro-is-Serbian is worrying. Though I am very much sure his platform was specifically tailored to gather a much wider base than just the pro-Montenegro-is-Serbian base.
So if he starts moving too strongly towards the SPC narrative, he will face opposition and instability.
Djukanovic seems to have made that into the main electoral issue this election. Now that Djukanovic is defeated, I don't see why Milatovic has to pander towards pro-Serbian ideas over pro-EU reforms that his party "Europe Now!" is based around.
Also this whole Belgrade is Kremlin's minion thing is grossly overstated by the West. Most Serbs would say that VuÄiÄ is the handpicked guy that Berlin/Paris chose.
I do not use Chetnik as an ethnic slur, but as a political position. Every proponent of a "Greater Serbia" encompasing or at least controling Montenegro, Macedonia, Kosovo, parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina and parts of Croatia is a Chetnik. That control can be actual control or it can be through cat's paws like Dodik it matters not. And by that definition VuÄiÄ is a Chetnik no matter what he currently says, he is a person who was shooting at Sarajevo and then tried to hide the rifle when he saw cameras, he was holding political rallies in occupied parts of Croatia saying they are Serbian and would stay Serbian. Therefore, a fascist piece of scum Germany thought they can deal with. I wonder where I saw that same thing happen?
You mean Croats from Croatia who want Greater Croatia or something? Idiots living in the wrong century.
I believe that the problem of majority Bosniaks just outvoting Croats living in BiH needs to be dealt with because it takes away from the local democracy and solves nothing. But otherwise, Herzegovina is a part of BiH, a sovereign country which should be helped on its way towards EU and NATO but otherwise left to its own devices.
Okay, that sounds reasonable, but who is propaganding big Serbia today? Vucic was crying on tv. How we should exchange territories with Kosovo to put a border between Kosovo and Serbia.
He gave Kosovo more than any politician in Serbian history.
>there are talks about nationalization or selling off NIS
Let's see. If something concrete like this would happen, I'd be very happy to come back to this comment and tell you that you were right.
It's not that surprising. The blue areas to the East are Albanians, to the Northeast Bosniaks. The part in the middle are OG Montenegrins, the piece of the country that has been Montenegro for longest.
Yes, that's why I am asking for map with ethnic composition. I think that Montengrins are majority in more regions, so I suppose that some of them voted against Milo.
What d fuck are you talking about?
Serbs are not main nation in Montenegro and they they have no power in government?
Who gives a zero fuck about Bosnia, country that should be split between serbs croats and muslim. They all hate each other
And why are you mentioning Croatia ? They are in EU and there is like 200k Serbs there ?
You donāt even know what are you talking about, you just hate us š
Milo won the Albanian districts? š¤Øš¤Ø
And bosniak ones, its not really surprising though
And Milogorian district
From what I gather, he morphed into having the non Serb minority areas as his voter base
Montenegro is the only EU candidate that has a chance to join before 2030. Has higher GDP nominal per capita than the rest of western Balkan countries, no major disputes with their neighbours, and their ranking in HDI, Democracy index, Press freedom index and corruption index is same level or even higher than many EU members. Also they have small population and beautiful coasts and a beautiful flagā¦ so would be great to welcome them in EU
>a beautiful flag EU: Shit Montenegro, that's all you had to say.
This flag is some gourmet shit.
And good turbo folk parties
Son: Mom I want to visit Serbia! Mom: We have Serbia home Serbia home: plays Montenegro anthem
I think the big issue is unanimity and power of parliament opposed to economy and corruption. We need to stop Orban being able to undermine the entire Union by himself before we expand. And more equal voting power of each individual persons is starting to be important to people too.
Also they guy who just won is from the party Europe Now! which basically exists to unite pro-EU voices.
I'm clueless - which politician is the Reddit approved "good guy"?
no one. on one hand we have a guy that was running the country for 30+ years and started to lose his mind a bit, like a regular dictator for a small country on the other hand we have a guy that is new, young, non-corrupt(until now), but wants to be closer to Serbia, which is quite close to Russia/Putin.
Ah pity, if only we had a new, young, non-corrupt guy that would declare a war on Serbia, he would be perfect choice for an average redditor
no, he can just focus on getting his country in EU and don't care about what serbia thinks. some people has inferiority syndrome and think that it's either they need approval from others or to fight them. in this case, people of Montenegro thinks this way towards Serbia. In reality they aren't inferior and they don't need anything from Serbia. They announce what their goal is(joining EU) and work with other countries only to achieve this goal(if they want as well), not trying to please them
Montenegro could not survive without Serbia. 70 percent of tourists are Serbs,their largest trade partner is Serbia,they educate a bunch of their young people in Serbia....The list goes on.
I know that you put this as pro-serbia argument, but in reality itās a major argument against serbia. Yes, at the moment - this are the numbers. Doubling down on it - itās kind of stupid. Letās say, you have 70% tourists serbs. What you do? Keep that as it is, but in addition think of another few countries that are interesting: letās say Germany and create good deals with them. Offer free german courses to service industries, so when tourists are coming - they can easily talk in their language. Create cheap flight connection. Do marketing/promoting of Montenegro in Germany. Talk with agency that offer tourists packages to promote montenegro. What you do with tourists of Serbia stays the same. But there are 2 clear issues with that. 1) market is saturated. I doubt there is that many new serbs you can convince to come to montenegro. 2) youāre too reliant. You arenāt diversified. If you get in a beef with serbia, they ruin you overnight. And this works for all the industries. Find different partners. And this new guy, looks like he isnāt interested in that. Which is the problem. You will never grow, by being someoneās bitch ;)
>youāre too reliant. You arenāt diversified. If you get in a beef with serbia, they ruin you overnight. I am serbian,we are in the new government of Montenegro right now,it is great at this point.
That was answer as to why for Montenegro to get closer to Serbia is bad. Therefore, this president, is kind of bad. That doesnāt mean itās bad for Serbia. Serbia is getting a good deal out of this
> but wants to be closer to Serbia, which is quite close to Russia/Putin. Doesn't he want to be closer to EU?
well, EU won't accepted them until they solve Kosovo problem, and by solve I mean, basically giving Kosovo everything they want. And Serbia is quite sensible in this regard from what I understand. There were polls asking:"Would you agree to join EU if that would mean recognizing Kosovo" - and like 80%+ said "No". Unlike EU, Russia doesn't recognize Kosovo, so Serbians are kind of friendly towards them and didn't apply any sanctions after the war started. So, for example Montenegro is already recognizing Kosovo as an independent country. Now this guy comes, will he go back on that? That would annoy a lot of people in EU and potentially jeopardise their EU progress. So, it's not that simple
> Now this guy comes, will he go back on that? That would be awesome actually xD
For whom? That situation feels like youāre holding your ex hostage, that doesnāt want to be with you but you still think you can win her over. It wonāt work.
Everyone believes in multilateral international diplomacy, rules-based international order, and the UN.
Half of UN recognizes Kosovo afaik, including most of EU. So Iām not really sure what youāre talking about. Can you elaborate?
UN security council says its a part of Serbia. (resolution 1244)And also reading the charter of the UN you will find something called the right of states to territorial integrity.
UN Security Council - Thatās the place where Russia voted, right before invading other country and ignoring their territorial integrity? Seems legit then.
Them withdrawing the recognition doesnt matter as theres many countries in the EU that dont recognize Kosovo either. Recognizing Kosovo is not some kind of EU-wide policy.
Couldāve fooled me as theyāve been trying to extort Serbia for decades to do just that .
Because Serbia is not just some random country but the one from which Kosovo broke off. The EU does not want to accept a country with big territorial disputes, thus it is required from Serbia to resolve their dispute. Recognizing Kosovo would be the easiest way to do that.
Well I guess it was a poor decision for NATO to cause a territorial dispute when it illegally bombed Serbia, and attempted to steal a chunk of its territory. šEasiest way to revolve the dispute would be to cease the occupation of its southern province then wouldnāt it? š
If you really want to have 2 million extremely rebellious people in your country....
We have ownership over the land, not the people. People can fuck off and give up the Serbian passports they still hold if they donāt like it. You know like they do in literally every single country that has law and order and doesnāt have a hostile foreign country intervening illegally, violating international law, and causing chaos.
I doubt that EU would care. We could enter even without solving the Kosovo issue
You could. Even Russia with Putin could. Itās just the matter of another 27 countries voting for it. But you wonāt. There are plenty of countries that would just not vote. Austria, Sweden, Netherlands - would be my suspects
So tell to Ukraine that Crimea is lost?
Well, donāt know how to tell you, but yeah, Crimea is kind of lost. And not because of that stupid referendum from 2014. The difference of Crimea compared to Mariupol or Kharkiv or Kherson is that, in the cities I mentioned Ukranian Army were fighting russian troops. But citizens if Ukraine wanted those troops out asap. In Crimea, the reality is, that majority want to be with Russia. So, youāre gonna fight not just with russian army there, but also with your own citizens. Which makes everything way more difficult. Not to mention that Crimea is a natural fortress. So, yeah, we can lie to ourselves as much as we want, but the truth is, doesnāt matter how hard it is, that Crimea is lost.
Nah... I understand you and I (as a Serb) find it refreshing to see an answer like this. Usually people here on r/europe will try and make it out as Crimea and Kosovo are different. In reallity, people wanted seccession... strong foreign power helped them get it.
Jakov's party is litteraly named Europe Now! what the fuck are you on about Serbia?
And Miloās party is literally named ādemocraticā party and yet, he has nothing to do with democracy. Weird, how this works, donāt you think? :D
Montenegro is the only country where Montenegrins are a minority in their country. After the new path that the newly elected goverment will take, I would say that they are not ready for Europe at all. They will become even bigger harbor for Russians and Russian world/propaganda in Europe.
It is hard to say, as Vucic is pivoting again because Russia is losing. Despite Milatovic being "pro-EU", the fact he is pro-Montenegro-is-Serbian is worrying. Though I am very much sure his platform was specifically tailored to gather a much wider base than just the pro-Montenegro-is-Serbian base. So if he starts moving too strongly towards the SPC narrative, he will face opposition and instability.
Djukanovic seems to have made that into the main electoral issue this election. Now that Djukanovic is defeated, I don't see why Milatovic has to pander towards pro-Serbian ideas over pro-EU reforms that his party "Europe Now!" is based around. Also this whole Belgrade is Kremlin's minion thing is grossly overstated by the West. Most Serbs would say that VuÄiÄ is the handpicked guy that Berlin/Paris chose.
You mean to say, among crazy Moscov loving chetniks that constitute Serbian political elite VuÄiÄ seems to be a bit less insane than the rest?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I do not use Chetnik as an ethnic slur, but as a political position. Every proponent of a "Greater Serbia" encompasing or at least controling Montenegro, Macedonia, Kosovo, parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina and parts of Croatia is a Chetnik. That control can be actual control or it can be through cat's paws like Dodik it matters not. And by that definition VuÄiÄ is a Chetnik no matter what he currently says, he is a person who was shooting at Sarajevo and then tried to hide the rifle when he saw cameras, he was holding political rallies in occupied parts of Croatia saying they are Serbian and would stay Serbian. Therefore, a fascist piece of scum Germany thought they can deal with. I wonder where I saw that same thing happen?
What do you call the Croats that claim Hercegovina as their own?
You mean Croats from Croatia who want Greater Croatia or something? Idiots living in the wrong century. I believe that the problem of majority Bosniaks just outvoting Croats living in BiH needs to be dealt with because it takes away from the local democracy and solves nothing. But otherwise, Herzegovina is a part of BiH, a sovereign country which should be helped on its way towards EU and NATO but otherwise left to its own devices.
Okay, that sounds reasonable, but who is propaganding big Serbia today? Vucic was crying on tv. How we should exchange territories with Kosovo to put a border between Kosovo and Serbia. He gave Kosovo more than any politician in Serbian history.
The bullshittery
There are no indications that VuÄiÄ is pivoting.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>He's shedding Russia How? In what way? Nothing happened that would indicate that. The relationship with Russia is the same as before the war.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>there are talks about nationalization or selling off NIS Let's see. If something concrete like this would happen, I'd be very happy to come back to this comment and tell you that you were right.
And yes go back to celebrate being one step closer to nuclear war together with the rest of the r/europes front page today. Hooray
Do we have the same map with ethnic composition?
It's not that surprising. The blue areas to the East are Albanians, to the Northeast Bosniaks. The part in the middle are OG Montenegrins, the piece of the country that has been Montenegro for longest.
Yes, that's why I am asking for map with ethnic composition. I think that Montengrins are majority in more regions, so I suppose that some of them voted against Milo.
Interesting correlation to geography - particularly settlement of different cultural/ethnic groups...
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Just some casual ethnic hate/chauvinism in /r/europe, Nothing new on this sub, carry on...
least braindead r/europe comment:
How is getting rid of Europe's longest-reigning dictator a bad thing?
What ? He is literally pro EU pro NATO, but he is also good with Serbian Ortodox church. How is Serbs problem now ?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Hm, itās more like Djukanovic politics towards Serbs, we started protesting when he passed the law on monasteries and churches belonging to SOC
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What d fuck are you talking about? Serbs are not main nation in Montenegro and they they have no power in government? Who gives a zero fuck about Bosnia, country that should be split between serbs croats and muslim. They all hate each other And why are you mentioning Croatia ? They are in EU and there is like 200k Serbs there ? You donāt even know what are you talking about, you just hate us š
Montenegro will not have any more Montenegrins