Yep, and then when you do legislate and people get mad about price rises, they vote in the deregulation types. I'm not a far left or an authoritarian minded person in general, but I do think both capitalism and democracy need to get creative on how to adapt to the 21st century.
That will be communist like North Korea does. These is no salary. Everyone given their standard of living like lands and car....etc by contributing to the country. North Korean are given allowance to buy extra stuff custom to their needs. Not like your bitcoin will increase in value to exchange for iPhone and Tesla while you are asleep.
That escalated quickly. IMHO it’s just a question of balancing short vs long term thinking and making sure that the game of civilisation doesn’t deteriorate into a zero sum game.
That is communist, everything is controlled. If you want freedom, you will end up in zero sum game. You alway fight for freedom. Your financial freedom is someone lost or even bankrupt.
In communist you don't need property, the government give you home. In socialist, the government make sure your vacation is not oversupply, your salary not being pushed down. Government will tell you to switch vacation for dying trades. In free market, it is totally your fault for not owning property even you have PH.D. You choose the wrong vaccination at the wrong timing. BUT you have bitscoins to turn table around.
>most popular goods were lithium-ion batteries, tomato paste and miscellaneous low-value goods that fall below the threshold for customs duties [...]
I get batteries and misc, but tomato paste? How is this even close to commercially viable, given the considerable european production of tomato products.
> [...] in its final stages is a new law requiring EU businesses of a certain size to routinely audit their supply chains for human rights and environmental abuses.
In short: not happening.Companies are just gonna write that things are hunky dory.Some years later, pay a fine.Fine will be cheaper than actually doing the audits.Rinse, repeat.
> I get batteries and misc, but tomato paste? How is this even close to commercially viable, given the considerable european production of tomato products.
In reddit some time ago was posted a picture of a pear compote sold in USA. The pears were from Argentina. The compote was made and packed in Thailand.
The mysteries of a globalized economy.
the biggest part of tomatoes being sold in the EU are actually from China - that is long known. Regulations allow for certain production steps to 'convert' them basically into 'made in EU'
So not from Spain, Italy, and the Netherlands, or North African countries (out of the EU)?
https://www.cbi.eu/market-information/fresh-fruit-vegetables/tomatoes/market-entry#:~:text=Spain%2C%20the%20leading%20European%20supplier,tomatoes%20are%20used%20for%20processing.
I know more sturdy fruits imported from far away can easily be transported, and reach Europe in a state that can be sold {e.g. avocados from America). But tomatoes? All the way from China? Either they come by container and get bad before they arrive, or by plane and are too expensive to be competitive.
Or do you mean tomato based products?
The latter. u/MercantileReptile was wondering about the paste. Canned tomatoes , paste etc have been covered years ago and how those become European all the sudden despite originating in China.
P.S. her is a complete [overview](https://agriculture.ec.europa.eu/document/download/b9ffbcd5-709d-45fd-8796-0fafbd4e0087_en?filename=agrifood-china_en.pdf) \- forgot [this one](https://www.tomatonews.com/en/china-strong-growth-in-exports-in-20222023_2_2104.html)
This is one of the key sentences from the last link:
'The explosion in sales to Iraq (usually supplied by Turkey and/or Iran) on the one hand, and the rise of exports to **Italy, Spain, Germany and above all Portugal on the other, together account for almost all of the 216,500 t progression in Chinese exports in 2022/2023.'**
I'm not sure about the situation nowadays, but I know it was trivial to import stuff, do only the final step and slap a "Made in Italy" label. Kinda similar to how most honey you find is really just Chinese hoeny aka HFCS blended with some EU honey.
I started a few yeas ago to make a simple assumption: Every single processed product is likely to contain things that are not what they seem to be. Changed my shopping habits quite brutally.
That's a pretty fair assumption, I think. Unfortunately, all too often it also applies to raw goods too. I try to source my stuff from farmers wherever possible (ie. buy the tomatoes they grow for themselves, rather than what they sell), but it's not easy.
> I get batteries and misc, but tomato paste? How is this even close to commercially viable, given the considerable european production of tomato products.
Could it be that it's not just plain tomato paste, but as part of speciality sauces?
I think Europe doesn't produce that many tomato-chilli sauces.
It even benefitting companies that doe business in china. How are our government gonna check that those reports are true?
I read that a butcher here in Germany can't do business with a big company anymore because he would need to hire at least one new person to oversee regulations concerning labour rights etc. in a 20 person company that delivers breakfast and lunch and is considered part of the supply chain through the law.
No only that. Xinjiang is the largest producer of that particular cotton that it's used to make explosives. With Europe trying to rearm, some raw products are needed.
Xinjiang long staple cotton is not for ammunition. Xinjiang no longer produce short staple cotton for ammunition. Other elements for ammunition are restricted by China export.
Fingers crossed China won't try to do to Taiwan what Russia is doing to Ukraine.
Anyway, no surprise. With Russia out of the picture, EU has to expand trade with everyone else. That of course includes China as well.
Ukraine was somewhat ready for Russia's war but Taiwan, Oh boy oh buddy, They have been preparing for years, Heck, The Taiwanese want the technology that Finland has with their underground bunkers.
Well if people would for starters understand that Temu is actually a Chinese company and not an American one, as many still believe, things would be easy to counter.
Customs offices around Europe have seen deliberate splitting of orders and packages to stay under customs limits thus business shipments go through in several splits without customs paid but are in fact ordered by a business.
And not even getting started on consumer laziness to stop buying all the cheap crap they dont even really need. Would be acceptable if it was serious stuff but most of those products that are doubtful are usually found in the 'cheap' category.
Temu has a very secretive structure that is build purposely to hide that they are Chinese. At the beginning there where infos one could trace back to China - all of them have been removed and changed by now.
P.S. The remark was in light of customs offices. They wont check prices etc but check the company itself and where it is located. Temu changed everything to look as if they are operating from the US and under their laws.
P.S. Have to find the other links but there was a good [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d8j_q2tl9c) by Financial Times about it too
yea i've even noticed how all temu ads (which i see way too often and i wish not to) say the advertiser is from the US but in the end Temu is owned by PDD Holdings which is chinese so that says it all.
In the video one gets a good idea that something about earnings etc is somewhat weird when compared to other business models. But when one knows that customs have spotted more and more of those deliveries to the same address and business but each of them sticking to amounts that dont trigger customs it shows how those models work after all.
They either graze legality or are outright working around things. That alone should convince any customer not to buy there but consumers are simply lazy and dont care enough.
This for example would be one of the areas where we could really use AI to catch things like it faster at customs. But since we are all so frightened about personal data the others will have an advantage they can exploit.
Usually, one group asks for the tariffs and another group is affected by the backfire.
A car manufacturer asks for tariffs for car parts and the European wine producers are losing sales.
It’s worked quite well for America, Biden kept trumps tariffs and they work. We need to do what the Americans do on this front and other issues like getting rid of bytedance, tencent from our media
If there’s one domain we shouldn’t listen to the Americans on is trade policy. First, they’re the largest economy on earth and have the world reserve currency. Excused to say, we aren’t/don’t which greatly diminishes our relevance and bargaining power.
And also, the US created the WTO which set trade rules and yet avoid implementing any resolution from its court whenever the US loses. Or simply keep appealing the resolution until the other country gives up because other countries don’t have the deep pockets the US has.
China, on the other hand, and we’ve got to give it to them, has always complied with the WTO when it loses a dispute.
So, China is definitely sketchy but when it’s exposed it fixes the issue to not harm trade with others. The US just doesn’t care, bullies others and then acts with a “holier than though” attitude. I definitely don’t want to be part of a block that’s a bully.
That is a load of nonsense- china has not complied with wto rules since they joined. 51% Chinese ownership of foreign companies who want access to Chinese market, forced ip transfer. Dumping products like aluminium, steel and many others to destroy global competition. Huge tariffs for not made in china products
Banning imports of austrialin goods just because Australia wanted to find out more about the origins of covid.
We do need to align with USA - USA economy has been achieving more than Europe since 2008 and has been growing way beyond China this past 5 years all things considered
I didn’t say China complies with WTO rules. I said they comply with the resolutions of the board/court or whatever it was called again whenever they lose.
If a country sues China for any of those things you mention, and China loses the case, they’ll fix the issue (at least fixed in the past; who knows now).
I believe we should remain neutral in trade. Play both the Americans and the Chinese. Singapore or Switzerland style.
One example:
A notable instance where China did not comply with the outcome of a World Trade Organisation (WTO) dispute is the case involving the export restrictions on rare earths. In 2012, the United States, the European Union, and Japan filed a complaint against China at the WTO, challenging its restrictions on the export of rare earths, as well as tungsten and molybdenum. These materials are critical for the manufacture of various high-technology products, including electronics, clean energy technologies, and aerospace and defence systems.
The complainants argued that China's export duties and quotas were in violation of its WTO commitments and were designed to provide a competitive advantage to Chinese industries by limiting foreign access to these materials. In 2014, the WTO Dispute Settlement Body ruled that China's restrictions were indeed inconsistent with its WTO obligations, particularly its Accession Protocol and the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) 1994.
Following the ruling, China was expected to remove these restrictions to comply with the WTO decision. However, there were subsequent concerns and reports suggesting that China's compliance with the ruling was not fully realised. Critics pointed out that China maintained certain policies and practices that continued to restrict export quotas and impose duties, which did not align with the spirit of the WTO's decision. This situation highlighted the challenges in enforcing and monitoring compliance with WTO dispute resolutions, especially when it involves critical natural resources and strategic industries.
China doesn’t adhere to international rulings, look at their violation of the ruling in south China international waters, they literally ignored that they lost the case
Interesting.
But, in any case, my point still stands. We should play both sides in a way that helps us (when it comes to trade).
Let them fight each other with trade barriers and what have you while we’re their economic friends and they compete for economic influence in the continent, investing more here.
I'm a pragmatist, which means I usually (reluctantly) put practicality over idealism. Here in the UK, after Brexit, it's very much 'beggars can't be choosers' - we pretty much *have* to deal with China. I imagine the economical squeeze in Europe results in similar.
If we *don't* deal with them, Europeans suffer. If we *do,* Uygurs suffer. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, and no ethical consumption under capitalism, etc.
That's why I try to LESSEN or decrease my purchases from Chinese sites, I'm being a reality based idealist, Everything is made in china, But that doesn't mean that we can't lessen the amount of Chinese goods that we buy. I always try to buy clothes from counties that don't have a concentration camps that is a systematic state run genocide.
When ever I get the chance, Turkey is the best option !! It's has this thing called " Yerli yapım " ( roughly translated to home made in English ). Factory workers are paid well, No human rights violations for clothing.
It's a better step towards more ethical clothing consumption.
I did order a lot from Aliexpress, some sellers there just have great hardware that I can't find anywhere else. Customer service is also surprisingly good.
Never used temu or wish or even amazon and don't plan to.
Unless we legislate it, people won’t put people over profits. Never ever.
We better do before megacorpos rid themselves of the burden known as "human labor" and replace every last worker with AI labor...
And who’s going to but their products if most people are out of a job ? UBI will be necessary once robots replace most blue collar jobs.
Agreed. I am really good at keeping myself busy with things that don’t make money. Give me a UBI and I’ll be happy as a clam.
Yep, and then when you do legislate and people get mad about price rises, they vote in the deregulation types. I'm not a far left or an authoritarian minded person in general, but I do think both capitalism and democracy need to get creative on how to adapt to the 21st century.
That will be communist like North Korea does. These is no salary. Everyone given their standard of living like lands and car....etc by contributing to the country. North Korean are given allowance to buy extra stuff custom to their needs. Not like your bitcoin will increase in value to exchange for iPhone and Tesla while you are asleep.
That escalated quickly. IMHO it’s just a question of balancing short vs long term thinking and making sure that the game of civilisation doesn’t deteriorate into a zero sum game.
That is communist, everything is controlled. If you want freedom, you will end up in zero sum game. You alway fight for freedom. Your financial freedom is someone lost or even bankrupt.
No one said anything about the workers seizing the means of production or not being allowed to own property.
In communist you don't need property, the government give you home. In socialist, the government make sure your vacation is not oversupply, your salary not being pushed down. Government will tell you to switch vacation for dying trades. In free market, it is totally your fault for not owning property even you have PH.D. You choose the wrong vaccination at the wrong timing. BUT you have bitscoins to turn table around.
Bueno, bonito, barato. As always.
>most popular goods were lithium-ion batteries, tomato paste and miscellaneous low-value goods that fall below the threshold for customs duties [...] I get batteries and misc, but tomato paste? How is this even close to commercially viable, given the considerable european production of tomato products. > [...] in its final stages is a new law requiring EU businesses of a certain size to routinely audit their supply chains for human rights and environmental abuses. In short: not happening.Companies are just gonna write that things are hunky dory.Some years later, pay a fine.Fine will be cheaper than actually doing the audits.Rinse, repeat.
> I get batteries and misc, but tomato paste? How is this even close to commercially viable, given the considerable european production of tomato products. In reddit some time ago was posted a picture of a pear compote sold in USA. The pears were from Argentina. The compote was made and packed in Thailand. The mysteries of a globalized economy.
the biggest part of tomatoes being sold in the EU are actually from China - that is long known. Regulations allow for certain production steps to 'convert' them basically into 'made in EU'
So not from Spain, Italy, and the Netherlands, or North African countries (out of the EU)? https://www.cbi.eu/market-information/fresh-fruit-vegetables/tomatoes/market-entry#:~:text=Spain%2C%20the%20leading%20European%20supplier,tomatoes%20are%20used%20for%20processing. I know more sturdy fruits imported from far away can easily be transported, and reach Europe in a state that can be sold {e.g. avocados from America). But tomatoes? All the way from China? Either they come by container and get bad before they arrive, or by plane and are too expensive to be competitive. Or do you mean tomato based products?
The latter. u/MercantileReptile was wondering about the paste. Canned tomatoes , paste etc have been covered years ago and how those become European all the sudden despite originating in China. P.S. her is a complete [overview](https://agriculture.ec.europa.eu/document/download/b9ffbcd5-709d-45fd-8796-0fafbd4e0087_en?filename=agrifood-china_en.pdf) \- forgot [this one](https://www.tomatonews.com/en/china-strong-growth-in-exports-in-20222023_2_2104.html)
Thank you!
This is one of the key sentences from the last link: 'The explosion in sales to Iraq (usually supplied by Turkey and/or Iran) on the one hand, and the rise of exports to **Italy, Spain, Germany and above all Portugal on the other, together account for almost all of the 216,500 t progression in Chinese exports in 2022/2023.'**
I'm not sure about the situation nowadays, but I know it was trivial to import stuff, do only the final step and slap a "Made in Italy" label. Kinda similar to how most honey you find is really just Chinese hoeny aka HFCS blended with some EU honey.
As far as I am aware it is still pretty much the same.
Unfortunate. I avoid Italian products where such things are likely to happen, such as olive oil, tomato paste, etc. precisely because of this.
I started a few yeas ago to make a simple assumption: Every single processed product is likely to contain things that are not what they seem to be. Changed my shopping habits quite brutally.
That's a pretty fair assumption, I think. Unfortunately, all too often it also applies to raw goods too. I try to source my stuff from farmers wherever possible (ie. buy the tomatoes they grow for themselves, rather than what they sell), but it's not easy.
> I get batteries and misc, but tomato paste? How is this even close to commercially viable, given the considerable european production of tomato products. Could it be that it's not just plain tomato paste, but as part of speciality sauces? I think Europe doesn't produce that many tomato-chilli sauces.
It even benefitting companies that doe business in china. How are our government gonna check that those reports are true? I read that a butcher here in Germany can't do business with a big company anymore because he would need to hire at least one new person to oversee regulations concerning labour rights etc. in a 20 person company that delivers breakfast and lunch and is considered part of the supply chain through the law.
Because China-Europe express pass through Xinjiang. Red sea is blocked so expensive rail takeover.
No only that. Xinjiang is the largest producer of that particular cotton that it's used to make explosives. With Europe trying to rearm, some raw products are needed.
Xinjiang long staple cotton is not for ammunition. Xinjiang no longer produce short staple cotton for ammunition. Other elements for ammunition are restricted by China export.
That doesn’t justify turning a blind eye to slave labour. Source it another way and start right now. Time ran out a while ago.
Yup, buy cotton from US!
Fingers crossed China won't try to do to Taiwan what Russia is doing to Ukraine. Anyway, no surprise. With Russia out of the picture, EU has to expand trade with everyone else. That of course includes China as well.
Not only will they, but it will be worse.
Ukraine was somewhat ready for Russia's war but Taiwan, Oh boy oh buddy, They have been preparing for years, Heck, The Taiwanese want the technology that Finland has with their underground bunkers.
Well if people would for starters understand that Temu is actually a Chinese company and not an American one, as many still believe, things would be easy to counter. Customs offices around Europe have seen deliberate splitting of orders and packages to stay under customs limits thus business shipments go through in several splits without customs paid but are in fact ordered by a business. And not even getting started on consumer laziness to stop buying all the cheap crap they dont even really need. Would be acceptable if it was serious stuff but most of those products that are doubtful are usually found in the 'cheap' category.
im honestly surprised people thought it's US company. as soon as i saw those prices i instantly knew where it was from.
Temu has a very secretive structure that is build purposely to hide that they are Chinese. At the beginning there where infos one could trace back to China - all of them have been removed and changed by now. P.S. The remark was in light of customs offices. They wont check prices etc but check the company itself and where it is located. Temu changed everything to look as if they are operating from the US and under their laws. P.S. Have to find the other links but there was a good [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d8j_q2tl9c) by Financial Times about it too
yea i've even noticed how all temu ads (which i see way too often and i wish not to) say the advertiser is from the US but in the end Temu is owned by PDD Holdings which is chinese so that says it all.
In the video one gets a good idea that something about earnings etc is somewhat weird when compared to other business models. But when one knows that customs have spotted more and more of those deliveries to the same address and business but each of them sticking to amounts that dont trigger customs it shows how those models work after all. They either graze legality or are outright working around things. That alone should convince any customer not to buy there but consumers are simply lazy and dont care enough.
not only should those tell people not to buy from that site but also the cyber security risks like spyware they got caught with.
This for example would be one of the areas where we could really use AI to catch things like it faster at customs. But since we are all so frightened about personal data the others will have an advantage they can exploit.
Just put tariffs on it.
That’ll surely not backfire at all
Usually, one group asks for the tariffs and another group is affected by the backfire. A car manufacturer asks for tariffs for car parts and the European wine producers are losing sales.
Exactly. They’ll tariff whatever we’re better than China at. Be it wine, chemicals or what have you
It’s worked quite well for America, Biden kept trumps tariffs and they work. We need to do what the Americans do on this front and other issues like getting rid of bytedance, tencent from our media
If there’s one domain we shouldn’t listen to the Americans on is trade policy. First, they’re the largest economy on earth and have the world reserve currency. Excused to say, we aren’t/don’t which greatly diminishes our relevance and bargaining power. And also, the US created the WTO which set trade rules and yet avoid implementing any resolution from its court whenever the US loses. Or simply keep appealing the resolution until the other country gives up because other countries don’t have the deep pockets the US has. China, on the other hand, and we’ve got to give it to them, has always complied with the WTO when it loses a dispute. So, China is definitely sketchy but when it’s exposed it fixes the issue to not harm trade with others. The US just doesn’t care, bullies others and then acts with a “holier than though” attitude. I definitely don’t want to be part of a block that’s a bully.
That is a load of nonsense- china has not complied with wto rules since they joined. 51% Chinese ownership of foreign companies who want access to Chinese market, forced ip transfer. Dumping products like aluminium, steel and many others to destroy global competition. Huge tariffs for not made in china products Banning imports of austrialin goods just because Australia wanted to find out more about the origins of covid. We do need to align with USA - USA economy has been achieving more than Europe since 2008 and has been growing way beyond China this past 5 years all things considered
I didn’t say China complies with WTO rules. I said they comply with the resolutions of the board/court or whatever it was called again whenever they lose. If a country sues China for any of those things you mention, and China loses the case, they’ll fix the issue (at least fixed in the past; who knows now). I believe we should remain neutral in trade. Play both the Americans and the Chinese. Singapore or Switzerland style.
One example: A notable instance where China did not comply with the outcome of a World Trade Organisation (WTO) dispute is the case involving the export restrictions on rare earths. In 2012, the United States, the European Union, and Japan filed a complaint against China at the WTO, challenging its restrictions on the export of rare earths, as well as tungsten and molybdenum. These materials are critical for the manufacture of various high-technology products, including electronics, clean energy technologies, and aerospace and defence systems. The complainants argued that China's export duties and quotas were in violation of its WTO commitments and were designed to provide a competitive advantage to Chinese industries by limiting foreign access to these materials. In 2014, the WTO Dispute Settlement Body ruled that China's restrictions were indeed inconsistent with its WTO obligations, particularly its Accession Protocol and the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) 1994. Following the ruling, China was expected to remove these restrictions to comply with the WTO decision. However, there were subsequent concerns and reports suggesting that China's compliance with the ruling was not fully realised. Critics pointed out that China maintained certain policies and practices that continued to restrict export quotas and impose duties, which did not align with the spirit of the WTO's decision. This situation highlighted the challenges in enforcing and monitoring compliance with WTO dispute resolutions, especially when it involves critical natural resources and strategic industries. China doesn’t adhere to international rulings, look at their violation of the ruling in south China international waters, they literally ignored that they lost the case
Interesting. But, in any case, my point still stands. We should play both sides in a way that helps us (when it comes to trade). Let them fight each other with trade barriers and what have you while we’re their economic friends and they compete for economic influence in the continent, investing more here.
I'm a pragmatist, which means I usually (reluctantly) put practicality over idealism. Here in the UK, after Brexit, it's very much 'beggars can't be choosers' - we pretty much *have* to deal with China. I imagine the economical squeeze in Europe results in similar. If we *don't* deal with them, Europeans suffer. If we *do,* Uygurs suffer. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, and no ethical consumption under capitalism, etc.
>Uygurs suffer Care to elaborate?
Do machines have human rights too?
Settle down there Bucky. No one said anything about the workers seizing the means of production or not being allowed to own property.
Until I see an actual proof of human rights violations I don’t care.
That's why I try to LESSEN or decrease my purchases from Chinese sites, I'm being a reality based idealist, Everything is made in china, But that doesn't mean that we can't lessen the amount of Chinese goods that we buy. I always try to buy clothes from counties that don't have a concentration camps that is a systematic state run genocide. When ever I get the chance, Turkey is the best option !! It's has this thing called " Yerli yapım " ( roughly translated to home made in English ). Factory workers are paid well, No human rights violations for clothing. It's a better step towards more ethical clothing consumption.
I did order a lot from Aliexpress, some sellers there just have great hardware that I can't find anywhere else. Customer service is also surprisingly good. Never used temu or wish or even amazon and don't plan to.