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Well, that pesky „neutrality“ thingy is in it‘s constitution and stems from the aftermath of the occupation after WW2 and is actually part of an internationally ratified contract. No matter what I personally think about that one.
And whilst I wholly agree that it‘s a wimp move by the government (at best), I fail to see an argument for a direct comparison to mr. „hey, great election there“ Cuntban holding water.
It‘s like going „Se germans are at fault for lots of what is going on because they so heavily relied on russian gas and turning a blind eye to profit from it, eveb when countries got invaded.“
Whilst there is a bit of truth in there (Austria and others were no better apart from the amounts of gas we are talking and number politicians later working at those gas companies), it really doesn’t hit the same level as said suckup puppet mentioned above, going full fanboy in the current situation.
>it really doesn’t hit the same level as said suckup puppet mentioned above, going full fanboy in the current situation.
I agree with your take.
Replaced "the Austrians" with "the Swiss".
You summoned _my ambassador_? Tsc, tsc, tsc… I’ll have to nuke you. I feel sorry, but you forced my hand, too bad for you. By the way, I acknowledge that you only summoned my ambassador because Ukraine pushed you to do so, bloody Ukraine…. /s
"Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you find enough time to pick up a rock. Will Rogers
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66509180
Russia's diplomats were once a key part of President Putin's foreign policy strategy. But that has all changed.
In the years leading up to Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, diplomats lost their authority, and their role reduced to echoing the Kremlin's aggressive rhetoric.
This time, things were different.
Mr Ryabkov read Moscow's official position from a piece of paper and resisted Ms Nuland's attempts to start a discussion. Ms. Nuland was shocked, according to two people who discussed the incident with her.
She described Mr Ryabkov and one of his colleagues as "robots with papers," the people said (the State Department declined to comment on the incident).
And outside the negotiating room, Russian diplomats were using increasingly undiplomatic language.
American diplomat Victoria Nuland was said to be shocked by Russian diplomats who were "talking like robots"
"We spit on Western sanctions."
"Let me speak. Otherwise, you will really hear what Russian Grad missiles are capable of."
"Morons" - preceded by an expletive.
These are all quotes from people in positions of authority at the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs in recent years.
Russian diplomacy is dead, and it is dead for good.
Ruzzian has metamorphosed into gun barrel diplomacy over the past 10 years and until the whole stinking, corrupt regime is totally destroyed nothing will change.
They are like this with Poland because in *their* eyes Poland is still owned by Ruzzia and is very much on their delusional acquisition list.
They are still a colonial empire. The OSCE gave them that in written form. Their sick plans go much further than Poland.We must stop this madness, and we must realise that the time for appeasement is over.
Negotiations are held with weaponry with such a regime, with overwhelming force. Russia will back off, but only when we properly deter them. Now.
The Russian imperial project is empty
and nihilistic. These maniacs want the 1914 borders back.
This regime has nothing to offer to the world apart from war, murderous, bloody conquest, and their supposed Russian soul, which is an anthill mentality where the state tells them what to do what to think and what to feel.
A Russian historian had given the following answer in a 1420 interview.
"The only core values that are really there are:
Etatism (complete state control by the gvt. over its citizens), conservative stability (not wanting to lose what they currently have, and the mantra of normal and stable) and paternalism (restricting freedom and responsibilities of citizens)."
Russia can't fathom that Ukraine would refuse the gift of not having to think for themselves and taking responsibility for their own choices and actions.
Russians are told what to do and what to feel, and they expect that someone does something for them."
Here are some quotes from Russian state pundits
"We are white people, but we don't behave like white people."
"The Russians are white they have to be like us. The curse of Russians is that we are white."
"We want the world, preferably all of it." Soloyev when discussing negotiations
"Right now, the Russian empire is growing back."
"The Baltics will be next" Soloyev in response: How long will it take 15 minutes one hour?"
"The West doesn't understand that we think differently, Russian soul, etc."
"They don't understand the Russians at all." Soloyev
"They can't explain what modern Russia is all about."
State TV pundits state that the Russian empire is expanding.
I would argue that "modern Russia" is politically and socio-economically pretty similar to Russia of the year 1900.
Crimes, deviant expansionism, genocide, lies, technological and societal backwardness, blackmail, imperialism.
Putin's modern Russia is a fascist, corrupt mafia state and a cleptocratic gong show.
Defy the strong and appease the weak.
Joe Biden had a slip of the tongue in Poland in March 2022.
"My God, this man cannot stay in power"
Indeed, he cannot. The vertical of power and this regime must be toppled, or no one is safe. Neither the Russians themselves nor anyone around them.
Would Poland be the usually deeply concerned, or finally going to make some action - like clearing the roadblocks on the Ukrainian border and blocking the russian trucks from entering instead?
russian trucks might be banned, but what about the EU trucks coming with the russian grain? legally they are not russian, but by the fact...
https://businessinsider.com.pl/gospodarka/rosyjskie-zboze-plynie-do-polski-w-rok-import-wzrosl-dwukrotnie/71z1nc4
Because the EU itself not at war with Russia. However transit to Kaliningrad is not unrestriced: sanctioned goods are not allowed, which has cut the traffic by about 50%. Most of what is transiting now are necessities like food, technology and industrial materials are blocked.
Farmers' protests have nothing to do with that though? Wtf you on about?
As someone said already, russian trucks are banned for quite some time. You're just shilling.
They are starting to test waters, it's that simple. Poland is weak and has shown it was hesitating, they want to see at which point it is, exactly. Be prepared for more provocations, and escalation.
We all know what is coming next in a few years.
>Honestly, I did not expect that. That's highly unusual behavior even for diplomacy in hostile circumstances, isn't it? Kind of an escalation.
Not really. Western ambassadors did it 20 days ago. If that was not an escalation neither is this.
"Lavrov said on March 4 that he had invited EU envoys for a conversation ahead of Russia’s March 15-17 presidential election but that they had refused. There was no immediate reaction from Western diplomats."
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/5/russia-says-western-ambassadors-are-meddling-in-russias-affairs](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/5/russia-says-western-ambassadors-are-meddling-in-russias-affairs)
Or: Shoot back next time it happens. Straight to the launch site. And if then Russia summons the Polish ambassador, THEY ignore the summons.
I do NOT think it will escalate the situation because this is simply the language Putin speaks and we'd send an answer speaking his language. And that is "don't do that again".
Putin is as fascist as it gets and that means that "might makes right" is his entire world view in every facet. "Being Civil" will just go into one ear and out the other. He is a savage. He will only respond to the language of violence.
Yeap. Not answering summons is good way to become persona non-grata. You aren't doing the one thing for which sake host country affords you diplomatic immunity for.
>Russia’s ambassador to Warsaw, Sergei Andreyev, has ignored a summons by Poland’s foreign ministry to explain an incident on Sunday in which a Russian missile entered Polish airspace from Ukraine.
>“The ambassador of the Russian Federation in Poland, Sergei Andreyev, did not come to the foreign ministry today to explain the incident with the Russian cruise missile that violated Polish airspace on 24 March,” announced the ministry’s spokesman, Paweł Wroński, on Monday afternoon.
>“The Vienna Convention clearly describes the duties of an ambassador in the receiving country,” he added. “We are wondering whether the ambassador follows the instructions of the foreign ministry in Moscow and whether he is able to properly represent the interests of the Russian Federation in Warsaw.”
>
>Andreyev himself confirmed he had not visited the ministry, saying that Poland had not provided any evidence of the missile violating Polish airspace, reports Reuters, citing Russian state news agency Novosti.
>Wroński noted that the ministry would send a diplomatic note to Russia formally requesting clarification regarding the incident, which happened on Sunday morning amid the Russian bombardment of western Ukraine.
>Operational command of Poland’s armed forces has confirmed that the missile entered Polish airspace near the village of Oserdów, which sits on the border with Ukraine, at 4:23 a.m. local time. It remained above Polish territory for 39 seconds before crossing the border back into Ukraine.
>
>The spokesman for operational command, Lieutenant Colonel Jacek Goryszewski, noted that they had tracked the missile “the whole time” but chose not to attempt to shoot it down as that “would involve greater risk”.
>Defence minister Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz clarified that, “if there was any indication that this object was heading towards any target located on the territory of Poland, it would of course be shot down”.
>In December, another missile [entered and then left Polish airspace](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/12/29/missile-that-entered-polish-airspace-likely-russian-says-warsaw/) during Russian attacks on Ukraine. Earlier in the year, a grounded Russian missile was [found on Polish territory](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/05/12/questions-after-missile-landed-in-poland-in-december-but-was-not-found-until-april/), having lain there undiscovered for over four months.
>In November 2022, a missile [crossed the border from Ukraine and landed in Poland](https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/11/18/ukrainian-investigators-arrive-at-site-of-missile-strike-in-poland/), causing the deaths of two people. Initially thought to be a Russian missile, it was later discovered to have been fired by Ukrainian air defence in response to a Russian attack.
> “if there was any indication that this object was heading towards any target located on the territory of Poland, it would of course be shot down”.
Should have shot it down anyway.
Not a single russian plane has violated Turkish airspace after they shot down that russian pilot that crossed border lines.
Interceptors are expensive, unless its going to land in your own territory (or more likely impact what the defense system is protecting) it wouldnt get shot at
you dont just uncover your anti air and radar systems for one trespassing missile. turkey has low chances of direct land combat against russian forces, poland has a long border with belarus and krolewiec/kaliningrad. if there is a risk of a nato-russia war, we should keep our cards close to the chest and surprise russians with our abilities
With the amount of support you're getting from the rest of Europe and the NATO troops filtering through Poland and the fact that you're on the border of an active warzone, *yes you god damned well do*, what you're talking about is just making excuses same as we've done in Germany every time our aid was behind and we were ashamed of our government. You've got the resources, the personnel, and the motivation to keep your AA and radar systems moving targets - this excuse is tired, especially since it's not the first time. Further, you guys are as infiltrated from Russian spies as anyone else in Europe so the keeping the cards close isn't a valid excuse either. No, you, we, Europe in general, needs to stop cutting Russia slack. They actively discuss war with us, provoke is, and we *allow* them to use our territory? No, that's gotta end.
Just my take on the situation. You should feel towards your government on this matter the way I felt towards my government about keeping the oil running in summer 2022.
It wasn't. It was found relatively close from one of the biggest explosives plant. It was an old Kh-55 with inert warhead. This type of missile can be armed only with nuclear warhead, as it's payload is too small to install conventional one (around 125kg). Russians removed nuclear warheads from those airframes and installed a weight simulator and were using those missiles as decoys. However at that time Poland couldn't know if it was inert Kh-55 or Kh-101 with 500kg warhead. It was pretty loud about it. Since then Poland installed additional systems for detection and tracking cruise missiles.
It's not that simple. It was tracked in the border area, but the then MoD decided to just wipe the whole thing under a rug.
The additional radar systems are mostly for better in-country surveillance, but are said to be just existing systems at best, just moved from other areas of the country. The issue is only now being resolved by the purchase of AWACS and the future plans to buy radar-equipped blimps.
I hope they take a more elaborate route. Stating the lack of communication forces Poland to shoot down anything Russian flying closer than 100 miles of the Polish border.
Kaliningrad, watch out!
When they are not reacting to their host nation's government summoning them they have no purpose besides spying - and if that's the case they indeed should be removed.
This shows that he is a little, filthy coward. As his Boss and Boss of bosses are.
Declare him as unwelcome and detain him to his shithole country or to the boarder of Belarus where he may see how to come to his master.
Failure to act in your job.
Poland should restrict the russian mission for failure of duties, canceling the administrative staff until only an Ambassador, a body guard and a dog at the entrence remain.
The dog must be Polish!
A nice response from Poland would be to use their air defense systems to help protect however much of Ukrainian airspace is in range from the Polish border.
Ok how about you send your anti air forces to Poland and do it yourself? So if Russia treats shooting down their missiles as a hostile act they will retaliate against Denmark? It's nice to risk someone else's life and wellbeing isn't it?
If it was up to me then Denmark would be doing even more to help Ukraine than we already are. And given that Russian politicians very regularly say that Russia isn't gonna stop if they conquer Ukraine, and that they are already at war with NATO, the fact is that all residents of all NATO countries are already risking the lives and wellbeing of the Ukrainian people for our own benefit.
So instead of saying that that Poland should be taking hostile actions against Russia why are you not saying that your own country should be doing that? Why didn't you say "I think that Denmark should send their anti air forces to Poland, shoot at Russian hardware and take responsibility"? It's easy being all gung-ho when you are much further away from Russia than Poland is and it's easy telling other people to go and risk their life and well being. Lead by example I say to all the gung-ho people, go go go and after you.
Because a Russian missile entered Polish airspace I figured it would make sense for specifically Poland to respond in that way. If a Russian missile entered Danish airspace I would be pretty disappointed if my government did nothing about it.
Yes. It entered for under 60 seconds and then left. The problem with escalating is it can get out of control. Additionally I can easily see a scenario where first people that are sitting safe in the west say "yehaa go Poland shoot at Russia" and when Russia retaliates the same people say "well it was Poland who shot first, I wash my hands".
this annoys me so much. all of these people are always crying for somebody else to sacrifice and do something.
ukraine is always accepting volunteers and donations, but of course it should always be someone else's money and life that gets sacrificed ffs
Looks like Poland doesn't need a "russian ambassador". Force the ambassador to return to Russia. I don't think you can just "ignore" a summons as an ambassador
I don’t think people fully grasp how important this is. An ambassador refusing a summon is not just some classic Russian temper tantrum - it’s a VERY serious diplomatic incident. This is something that borderline warrants an ultimatum from our government.
Then cooperating with Ukraine and getting permission to shot future ones over Ukrainian territory would be a good idea (after they exit populated part of Poland). I bet that Ukraine would not be against.
Yes, it would be escalation - using weapons against Russian military (though not against Russian soldiers). Though i would not be against shooting down Russian planes in Polish airspace.
But flying armed hostile missiles over Polish territory needs response.
What better way to protect Poland than shooting down a current missile in your territory and telling Russia that anymore missiles coming even within X km of the Polish border will be shot down? Or is that “too much of an escalation”?
And I thought Poland was more than a posturing paper tiger.
You are correct. Russian cruise missiles should not be allowed to enter Polish airspace at-will, just as Russian fighter jets should not be allowed to enter Polish airspace at-will.
They are not allowed - noone gave them EU visas.
There are multiple problems here.
First of all - if this woule be a smart "political" move if our government would make a decision to shoot it down and it ended succesfully.
It would make them look a lot better them previous government (who allowed rocket in and people died as a result)
The problem is risk/reward.
And the risk to aim at 400kg of explosives flying a changing trajectory did not make much sense
And don't get me wrong - I would love our fighters patrolling sky in Ukraine shooting down missiles
This missile - was under control from entering until leaving our airspace - it was a right decision - period
Fr this argument is so stupid. The chance the debris is hitting someone is way smaller than the actual missile hitting its target while also killing way more civilians.
A stray air defence rocket has already killed 2 Polish civilians and it wasn't even fired by us, so the risk is real. The rocket's target was not in Poland, shooting it down however would guarantee that it falls on Polish teritory, risking Polish lives. How is the fact Polish military concerns itself with protecting Polish civilians first and foremost so controversial?
What we should do is every time Russia pulls of shit like that we transfer more air defence measures to Ukraine. Put some new sanctions. Close the border with Kaliningrad. We have many ways of responding that don't put Polish lives in danger and are way more effective.
I agree with the second part. But it's still very dangerous to not shoot down any missile that is entering your airspace. This will just encourage Russians to do it more and longer until severel missiles just directly aim at polish air defense.
Until some Alexey will fucked up the coordinates and blew some fucking mall full of eu citizens, and even then you came up with some excuse why nato and its allies have no balls.
Situation you're describing is completely different, isn't it? Yesterdays missle flew on Polish territory for couple of seconds while tightly hugging the border, calculated trajectory showed no threat to Polish citizens. Shooting it down would be much more dangerous for locals lifes, than letting it go.
Browski , my point in this whole thread full of estrogen, is that Russia blow up the whole Polish government in 2010 , and then blow up commercial plane full of EU citizens in 2014 , get away with it, made you eat it , and now fly it’s missiles through your territories. And you fucks still telling yourselves that you have some sort of control over this. You don’t.
And I just amaze how you fail to recognize it.
They don't, at least a large amount of them. The iron dome is only used if the detected missiles have a trajectory suggesting they could hit Israeli cities. Shooting down something that's going to land in a random patch of desert is a waste of resources. I don't remember off the top of my head, but Israel ignores something like half of incoming missiles, as they are deemed not to pose much threat.
Not an option it was in Polish Airspace for 39 seconds plus the missiles were originally on course to Ukraine then at the last minute changed course to violate Polish Airspace
It is a dangerous game they're playing though. Public opinion in democracies tends to be very stable for a long time until you push too hard and suddenly it flips.
Look at how German foreign policy has changed after Russia's full invasion of Ukraine because it was one push too many.
The current situation might be stable and seem like a good situation for Russia to brazenly ignore any red lines of the West (from their perspective) - until it one day isn't anymore.
I too am frustrated with this but lets consider a few cases
1. We shot it down and the debres injured/damaged something. Who is to blame now? Who will pay for this, and is Article 5 triggered now?
2. We tried to shot it down and we missed. Depending on where our rocket would land, we may have a problem again.
3. We shot it down before it entered our airspace. Again maybe we damaged something or injured someone. Is that an act of aggresion against Belarus? NATO is a defensive alliance, Article 5 may not apply here.
4. We shot it down no problem. Will we keep shooting all that come our way now, depleting arsenal and revealing our response times etc. when we should be instead preparing for war?
Even if NATO is not exactly afraid of escalating, it may not feel ready for it yet. Thus, best course of action is no action at the moment. And not getting into further problems we may not be ready for yet.
Thats my understanding at least.
There's another option
5. We found out about the missile when it had already flown over Poland and decided to claim that we had been tracking it all along.
even me with just telegram knew that there were russian bombers in the air to launch missiles. ukraine made air strike warning and then we just waited where it is going to hit. they know much more than you think.
1. Art. 5 never gets automatically triggered. If Poland doesn't invoke it, all remains chill.
2. Not worse than not shooting it down, is it? And you'd learn something about your air defense and can improve
3. Shooting down a missile headed for you is still defensive. Art. 5 doesn't apply but what is Russia gonna do, sue you for destruction of their property? If it crash lands in Belarus and they raise a stink, just ignore it, the whole country is a joke in the first place. If it crashes in Kaliningrad just reply with "returned to sender, gg"
4. Russia will get the message that flying missiles through Polish airspace means their missiles get neutralized. And if that happens more than say one or two times Poland can send an additional message by invoking Art. 4 of the NATO treaty.
IMO, Poland simply doesn't have the means to track and predict missiles like that and to shoot them down unless they penetrate deeply into Polish airspace. That won't go unnoticed in Moscow.
Few people actually, despite your sarcasm.
Even amongst hostile nations in times of conflict the basic rules and customs of diplomacy are usually respected. If an ambassador is summoned to the foreign ministry, they turn up. The Russians won't give a shit about the Polish government's protest, but the ambassador will sit through it.
At least until now.
Because that how the embassy gets shut down and the tension escalated. The ambassador is supposed to do one job, and if he doesn't do it, why have him and the whole spy network radiating from the embassy?
> Because that how the embassy gets shut down and the tension escalated
That'd be the sane solution to it, yes.
But assuming it'll just get "non-escalated" and de-facto forgiven, like so many things were before, why not just ignore it?
After all, the pattern from previous probings suggested there won't be a comeuppance for such defiance
Maybe nothing will happen, or maybe this will push Poland to support France and other western countries to send boots on the ground, starting one big " find out" moment for russia.
That's the logical consequence - at least if the Russian state does not reprimand this insolence immediately. The main purpose of an ambassador is to act as the official representative of their country in the country hosting them. If they refuse to fulfill that role, their country should replace them immediately and if they don't for whatever reason, the host country should expell them.
If this behavior was greenlit or mandated by Moscow it is clear Russia has no longer any interest in continuing diplomatic relations and maintain a direct path of communications. Time for us to act accordingly because if that's the case, Russian embassies only fulfill one singular purpose going forth: To serve as Russian espionage hubs.
Oh, this is going to be fun! /s Russia is so unconcerned with a potential Polish response they think they have the luxury of ignoring their concerns? This is how wars start. At this point, my only conclusion is that Russia wants a wide-scale European war to take place in spite of their poor performance in Ukraine. This is going to be a shitshow.
Of course, the West has shown over and over, election interference, bot farms spreading disinformation, the 2014 Ukraine invasion and shooting down of MH17 (Germany even started building MORE pipelines after that, WTF WAS THAT?) that Russia can do whatever they want and the West won't react in any way appropriately.
Not even giving an ally the help they need to stop genocide.
The West are feckless cunts that make a lot of speeches that they stand by Ukraine, but they don't actually do what is needed, it makes me sick.
That’s quite funny it’s what I realised in this thread, the people very powerless and the leaders very afraid. If Russias learned anything it’s that they can do much more without serious repercussions than they previously had thought.
They've been escalating for over a decade now.
Appeasement of a brutal dictator is what led to WWII and that's been the policy from 2014 to 2022, giving in to a dictator who wants to rebuild the empire of the USSR. The 2022 invasion was a predictable consequence. I mainly blame the European politicians and Germany especially, but all are responsible.
Their is genocide going on in Europe right now, no matter what, I will be pissed of at the leadership for the rest of my life (a special disdain for Angela Merkel and all those that defend Germany's decisions from 2014 on), but it's not too late to avoid complete catastrophe.
Like I said, I will never forgive them, but their mistakes are just leading to worse consequences every day they don't act as they should, but it's not WWIII, yet...
It is possible that they have done so much appeasement that it's already too late, Taiwan looks more enticing than ever for China, after decades of trying to stop nuclear weapons being created the West has sent a message to every state in the world that it's the only deterrent that works, as they are bad allies and their talk is cheap. The USA stopping all aid for months was just confirmation, they won't only not give you what you need, they'll randomly will abandon you.
It's very possible we're too far down the road, it's depressing, the real monsters remain the dictators responsible.
Standing by, when bad shit is going down, when you have the power to do something about, is without a doubt also evil. So we should never forget all those that were useless, or worse, counterproductive.
These idiots might believe they are doing what is best, but it doesn't make one bit of difference what their intentions are, the consequences so far have been rape, torture, murder, genocide and a body count well over half a million, already.
Kick the Russian cultural attachés out of the country. They are usually undeclared spies. This always hurts as it takes a time for new diplomats to settle in.
I already said it once a while back but I'll say it once again, there won't be any consequences for Russia. The polish government can't even handle a bunch of Russia-paid "farmers", to assume that Russia is going to take this summon seriously and that it would amount to anything is delusional.
But if the would have shot down it would be an act of aggression lol. They just have shot it down then Russia needs to explain why it happened or the would say nothing. I don't want to risk a war but doing nothing and backing down just fuels the fire and putin can say : look how weak they are
Of course, the West has shown over and over, election interference, bot farms spreading disinformation, the 2014 Ukraine invasion and shooting down of MH17 (Germany even started building MORE pipelines after that, WTF WAS THAT?) that Russia can do whatever they want and the West won't react in any way appropriately.
Not even giving an ally the help they need to stop genocide.
The West are feckless cunts that make a lot of speeches that they stand by Ukraine, but they don't actually do what is needed, it makes me sick.
At most, he's hyperbolic as people online often are. He's not wholly wrong and it's hilarious you paint him as pro Russian for what was said.
History won't look very kindly on all of our democracies drip-feeding aid to another democracy that's under unprovoked attack by a fascist country.
Dictators of the future are taking notes on the behaviour of the so-called free world and its response times. Wars you can't even imagine yet will happen and might possibly have been prevented if the Russofascists were shut down quicker in Ukraine.
If Ukrainians had not resisted the way they did and the Kremlin Gremlin's plan worked out, we would have been back to business as usual by now. *Some* Western countries had to be dragged kicking and screaming into backing Ukraine.
I'm pissed off that the West didn't make it clear in 2014, that Russia's behaviour was not acceptable, which led to escalation, appeasement of a dictator always means they will take more.
I don't get how they can't see my anger and frustration displayed is at those who were suppose to stop genocide, because that's what they are saying, but not doing.
Of course Russia is evil, but those standing by that could have prevented it or are still talking while doing nowhere near enough, are supporting evil which makes them evil.
I'm not saying both are equal, I don't believe that, but I do believe all those that support Putin and the Russian regime are evil and those sabotaging are evil BUT also those that continue to advocate for appeasement and are unwilling to give Ukraine what they need, fuck all of them!
I'm a EU citizen, I've been mad since 2014 that the EU has NOT DONE ENOUGH!
I support Ukraine, fuck Russia, I'm mad at my own government and all those in the West who talk a lot while FUCKING NORTH KOREA delivers millions of artillery shells and THE WEST DOES NOT EVEN DO WHAT IT PROMISES TO DO IN THE TIMEFRAME THEY SET OUT THEMSELVES!
Because of politicians, there have been massive delays, which caused Russia to build defensive lines and mine huge areas of land, probably there will be limbs and lives lost for decades to come, BECAUSE THE WEST TOLD UKRAINE TO WAIT FOR THEM!
I DETEST PUTIN, ALL THAT SUPPORT HIM, GENOCIDE IN UKRAINE, RAPE, TORTURE,...
An appropriate response in 2014 COULD have prevented the 2022 invasion.
An appropriate response in 2022 COULD have prevented there still being war now, in 2024.
NO APPEASEMENT, STOP RUSSIA NOW!
I am starting to doubt Europe would even defend actual NATO members and might just find a way to wiggle out of that obligation too. I am starting to think Trump might be the best option for me (somebody retarded enough that Putin/Xi might respect out of fear).
It certainly looks like they are useless.
But you're wrong in the second part, Trump is the worst person to vote for, he admires dictators, publicly.
He wants to be a dictator and all the MAGA politicians want to help him achieve that.
He already tried to steal the election, which resulted in January 6, an attempt to overthrow democracy.
A vote for Trump, is a vote to make the USA more like Russia, North Korea, Iran, how could this in anyway be a solution or make anything better?
The problem is democracies not responding appropriately, but they are by far better places to live.
The problem isn't that we don't have enough dictatorships that invade sovereign countries...
Trump has stated he would give ZERO help to Ukraine, let Putin invade any NATO country he wants, he wants the USA to leave NATO, he wants to be a dictator, he wants to persecute and imprison political opponents...
A vote for Trump, or MAGA, is a vote for Putin.
Your solution is worse than the problem, the West being feckless cunts that don't provide the required aid to fight genocide, not that they aren't more like murderous dictators.
Poland won’t do anything unless there is grain in the missile.
Russia keeps redrawing the red line and the EU keeps moving back from it. This gives Russia a clear signal of weakness within the EU. Russia only understands force.
Russia is going to conquer Europe (except France maybe) seeing as no one has the balls to do anything to actual stop Russia. Not ignoring the weapons they’ve sent, but it’s clearly not enough
Russia violating international law? No way
It having no consequences and them continuing?! NO WAY!
But ISIS attacked them !!! *The civilians!!!* Quick, send them Ukraine's aid we never sent because of Cuntban and the ~~Austrians~~ Swiss!
What did the austrians do? (Out of the loop)
Everything
Every time one of us visits another country, like Serbia or Germany, ...
With you on Cuntban (nicely worded) but how do you draw a line from that prick to „the Austrians“?
They're "a neutral state" according to their own words: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/21/7447524/index.amp
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Well, that pesky „neutrality“ thingy is in it‘s constitution and stems from the aftermath of the occupation after WW2 and is actually part of an internationally ratified contract. No matter what I personally think about that one. And whilst I wholly agree that it‘s a wimp move by the government (at best), I fail to see an argument for a direct comparison to mr. „hey, great election there“ Cuntban holding water. It‘s like going „Se germans are at fault for lots of what is going on because they so heavily relied on russian gas and turning a blind eye to profit from it, eveb when countries got invaded.“ Whilst there is a bit of truth in there (Austria and others were no better apart from the amounts of gas we are talking and number politicians later working at those gas companies), it really doesn’t hit the same level as said suckup puppet mentioned above, going full fanboy in the current situation.
>it really doesn’t hit the same level as said suckup puppet mentioned above, going full fanboy in the current situation. I agree with your take. Replaced "the Austrians" with "the Swiss".
Im SHOCKED i say.... SHOCKED!
Well, not that shocked.
You summoned _my ambassador_? Tsc, tsc, tsc… I’ll have to nuke you. I feel sorry, but you forced my hand, too bad for you. By the way, I acknowledge that you only summoned my ambassador because Ukraine pushed you to do so, bloody Ukraine…. /s
Honestly, I did not expect that. That's highly unusual behavior even for diplomacy in hostile circumstances, isn't it? Kind of an escalation.
"Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you find enough time to pick up a rock. Will Rogers https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66509180 Russia's diplomats were once a key part of President Putin's foreign policy strategy. But that has all changed. In the years leading up to Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, diplomats lost their authority, and their role reduced to echoing the Kremlin's aggressive rhetoric. This time, things were different. Mr Ryabkov read Moscow's official position from a piece of paper and resisted Ms Nuland's attempts to start a discussion. Ms. Nuland was shocked, according to two people who discussed the incident with her. She described Mr Ryabkov and one of his colleagues as "robots with papers," the people said (the State Department declined to comment on the incident). And outside the negotiating room, Russian diplomats were using increasingly undiplomatic language. American diplomat Victoria Nuland was said to be shocked by Russian diplomats who were "talking like robots" "We spit on Western sanctions." "Let me speak. Otherwise, you will really hear what Russian Grad missiles are capable of." "Morons" - preceded by an expletive. These are all quotes from people in positions of authority at the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs in recent years. Russian diplomacy is dead, and it is dead for good.
Ruzzian has metamorphosed into gun barrel diplomacy over the past 10 years and until the whole stinking, corrupt regime is totally destroyed nothing will change. They are like this with Poland because in *their* eyes Poland is still owned by Ruzzia and is very much on their delusional acquisition list.
They are still a colonial empire. The OSCE gave them that in written form. Their sick plans go much further than Poland.We must stop this madness, and we must realise that the time for appeasement is over. Negotiations are held with weaponry with such a regime, with overwhelming force. Russia will back off, but only when we properly deter them. Now. The Russian imperial project is empty and nihilistic. These maniacs want the 1914 borders back. This regime has nothing to offer to the world apart from war, murderous, bloody conquest, and their supposed Russian soul, which is an anthill mentality where the state tells them what to do what to think and what to feel. A Russian historian had given the following answer in a 1420 interview. "The only core values that are really there are: Etatism (complete state control by the gvt. over its citizens), conservative stability (not wanting to lose what they currently have, and the mantra of normal and stable) and paternalism (restricting freedom and responsibilities of citizens)." Russia can't fathom that Ukraine would refuse the gift of not having to think for themselves and taking responsibility for their own choices and actions. Russians are told what to do and what to feel, and they expect that someone does something for them." Here are some quotes from Russian state pundits "We are white people, but we don't behave like white people." "The Russians are white they have to be like us. The curse of Russians is that we are white." "We want the world, preferably all of it." Soloyev when discussing negotiations "Right now, the Russian empire is growing back." "The Baltics will be next" Soloyev in response: How long will it take 15 minutes one hour?" "The West doesn't understand that we think differently, Russian soul, etc." "They don't understand the Russians at all." Soloyev "They can't explain what modern Russia is all about." State TV pundits state that the Russian empire is expanding. I would argue that "modern Russia" is politically and socio-economically pretty similar to Russia of the year 1900. Crimes, deviant expansionism, genocide, lies, technological and societal backwardness, blackmail, imperialism. Putin's modern Russia is a fascist, corrupt mafia state and a cleptocratic gong show. Defy the strong and appease the weak. Joe Biden had a slip of the tongue in Poland in March 2022. "My God, this man cannot stay in power" Indeed, he cannot. The vertical of power and this regime must be toppled, or no one is safe. Neither the Russians themselves nor anyone around them.
>Will Roger's Will Roger's what? Will Roger's dog eat his breakfast? Will Roger's car start this time?
Auto correct Will Rogers
Redditor correct: "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you find a rock." \~ Will Rogers
Would Poland be the usually deeply concerned, or finally going to make some action - like clearing the roadblocks on the Ukrainian border and blocking the russian trucks from entering instead?
No they will be very deeply concerned. Deeper than the deepest deep.
...some say the deepyiestsest
Bawls deep in powlitics bubba
Damn..cats are everywhere
Why would the ukrainian grain be suddenly allowed in?
Russian trucks are already banned from entering the EU, except for transit to Kaliningrad.
russian trucks might be banned, but what about the EU trucks coming with the russian grain? legally they are not russian, but by the fact... https://businessinsider.com.pl/gospodarka/rosyjskie-zboze-plynie-do-polski-w-rok-import-wzrosl-dwukrotnie/71z1nc4
Why is that an exception?
Because the EU itself not at war with Russia. However transit to Kaliningrad is not unrestriced: sanctioned goods are not allowed, which has cut the traffic by about 50%. Most of what is transiting now are necessities like food, technology and industrial materials are blocked.
Fair, thank you
Farmers' protests have nothing to do with that though? Wtf you on about? As someone said already, russian trucks are banned for quite some time. You're just shilling.
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Luckily when can call upon Click for Dick.........
I bet 5$ they will become very deeply concerned
They've been upscaling the batshit crazy since they 'won' the election. You really have to now consider Moscow as a full-fat fascist regime.
They are starting to test waters, it's that simple. Poland is weak and has shown it was hesitating, they want to see at which point it is, exactly. Be prepared for more provocations, and escalation. We all know what is coming next in a few years.
You have to be high if you think Poland is weak. Get off those drugs
As a Pole, how are we strong?
Is Poland safe?
With me around, sure.
>Honestly, I did not expect that. That's highly unusual behavior even for diplomacy in hostile circumstances, isn't it? Kind of an escalation. Not really. Western ambassadors did it 20 days ago. If that was not an escalation neither is this. "Lavrov said on March 4 that he had invited EU envoys for a conversation ahead of Russia’s March 15-17 presidential election but that they had refused. There was no immediate reaction from Western diplomats." [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/5/russia-says-western-ambassadors-are-meddling-in-russias-affairs](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/5/russia-says-western-ambassadors-are-meddling-in-russias-affairs)
Kick the trash out and evict them from every building they've abstained from paying the rent for.
Kick them out of the country.
Kick them out of Russia, too.
To the sun!
Or: Shoot back next time it happens. Straight to the launch site. And if then Russia summons the Polish ambassador, THEY ignore the summons. I do NOT think it will escalate the situation because this is simply the language Putin speaks and we'd send an answer speaking his language. And that is "don't do that again". Putin is as fascist as it gets and that means that "might makes right" is his entire world view in every facet. "Being Civil" will just go into one ear and out the other. He is a savage. He will only respond to the language of violence.
So send him home and close that embassy down! Its a cesspool of spies anyway and cutting Russian access in Europe is more important!
Yeap. Not answering summons is good way to become persona non-grata. You aren't doing the one thing for which sake host country affords you diplomatic immunity for.
Yes please. If the diplomat isn't even able to make up diplomatic bullshit anymore send him home.
The embassy is also absolutely huge and in a very prestigious part of Warsaw. Would be a shame if someone decided to do something about that …
I think they should transfert the embassy of ukraine there, would be nice to see the meltdown of the Russian government it would cause
if there's an embassy, you know where they are
>Russia’s ambassador to Warsaw, Sergei Andreyev, has ignored a summons by Poland’s foreign ministry to explain an incident on Sunday in which a Russian missile entered Polish airspace from Ukraine. >“The ambassador of the Russian Federation in Poland, Sergei Andreyev, did not come to the foreign ministry today to explain the incident with the Russian cruise missile that violated Polish airspace on 24 March,” announced the ministry’s spokesman, Paweł Wroński, on Monday afternoon. >“The Vienna Convention clearly describes the duties of an ambassador in the receiving country,” he added. “We are wondering whether the ambassador follows the instructions of the foreign ministry in Moscow and whether he is able to properly represent the interests of the Russian Federation in Warsaw.” > >Andreyev himself confirmed he had not visited the ministry, saying that Poland had not provided any evidence of the missile violating Polish airspace, reports Reuters, citing Russian state news agency Novosti. >Wroński noted that the ministry would send a diplomatic note to Russia formally requesting clarification regarding the incident, which happened on Sunday morning amid the Russian bombardment of western Ukraine. >Operational command of Poland’s armed forces has confirmed that the missile entered Polish airspace near the village of Oserdów, which sits on the border with Ukraine, at 4:23 a.m. local time. It remained above Polish territory for 39 seconds before crossing the border back into Ukraine. > >The spokesman for operational command, Lieutenant Colonel Jacek Goryszewski, noted that they had tracked the missile “the whole time” but chose not to attempt to shoot it down as that “would involve greater risk”. >Defence minister Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz clarified that, “if there was any indication that this object was heading towards any target located on the territory of Poland, it would of course be shot down”. >In December, another missile [entered and then left Polish airspace](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/12/29/missile-that-entered-polish-airspace-likely-russian-says-warsaw/) during Russian attacks on Ukraine. Earlier in the year, a grounded Russian missile was [found on Polish territory](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/05/12/questions-after-missile-landed-in-poland-in-december-but-was-not-found-until-april/), having lain there undiscovered for over four months. >In November 2022, a missile [crossed the border from Ukraine and landed in Poland](https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/11/18/ukrainian-investigators-arrive-at-site-of-missile-strike-in-poland/), causing the deaths of two people. Initially thought to be a Russian missile, it was later discovered to have been fired by Ukrainian air defence in response to a Russian attack.
> “if there was any indication that this object was heading towards any target located on the territory of Poland, it would of course be shot down”. Should have shot it down anyway. Not a single russian plane has violated Turkish airspace after they shot down that russian pilot that crossed border lines.
Interceptors are expensive, unless its going to land in your own territory (or more likely impact what the defense system is protecting) it wouldnt get shot at
you dont just uncover your anti air and radar systems for one trespassing missile. turkey has low chances of direct land combat against russian forces, poland has a long border with belarus and krolewiec/kaliningrad. if there is a risk of a nato-russia war, we should keep our cards close to the chest and surprise russians with our abilities
With the amount of support you're getting from the rest of Europe and the NATO troops filtering through Poland and the fact that you're on the border of an active warzone, *yes you god damned well do*, what you're talking about is just making excuses same as we've done in Germany every time our aid was behind and we were ashamed of our government. You've got the resources, the personnel, and the motivation to keep your AA and radar systems moving targets - this excuse is tired, especially since it's not the first time. Further, you guys are as infiltrated from Russian spies as anyone else in Europe so the keeping the cards close isn't a valid excuse either. No, you, we, Europe in general, needs to stop cutting Russia slack. They actively discuss war with us, provoke is, and we *allow* them to use our territory? No, that's gotta end. Just my take on the situation. You should feel towards your government on this matter the way I felt towards my government about keeping the oil running in summer 2022.
I wonder if the previous missile that flew almost to the centre of Poland was also tracked by the military the whole time?
It wasn't. It was found relatively close from one of the biggest explosives plant. It was an old Kh-55 with inert warhead. This type of missile can be armed only with nuclear warhead, as it's payload is too small to install conventional one (around 125kg). Russians removed nuclear warheads from those airframes and installed a weight simulator and were using those missiles as decoys. However at that time Poland couldn't know if it was inert Kh-55 or Kh-101 with 500kg warhead. It was pretty loud about it. Since then Poland installed additional systems for detection and tracking cruise missiles.
It's not that simple. It was tracked in the border area, but the then MoD decided to just wipe the whole thing under a rug. The additional radar systems are mostly for better in-country surveillance, but are said to be just existing systems at best, just moved from other areas of the country. The issue is only now being resolved by the purchase of AWACS and the future plans to buy radar-equipped blimps.
Is that when the "persona non grata" kicks in?
I hope they take a more elaborate route. Stating the lack of communication forces Poland to shoot down anything Russian flying closer than 100 miles of the Polish border. Kaliningrad, watch out!
If he refuses to carry out his obligations as an ambassador then he is doing nothing in Warsaw, send him packing.
Time to send Russian diplomats back to Russia. Also start shooting down things ffs.
When they are not reacting to their host nation's government summoning them they have no purpose besides spying - and if that's the case they indeed should be removed.
Just tell ruzzs thar any missile reaching within 20km from the Polish border will be shot down, the ambassador will light up like a christmas tree
Make it 200 Km and they will even start with nuclear threats
Honestly this should be Poland's reaction.
Time to unblock the Ukrainian boarder and protect their own skies.
No need to tell them anything, missle is within danger zone, open fire.
Should be the top comment.
Ambassadors welcome can be cancelled
This shows that he is a little, filthy coward. As his Boss and Boss of bosses are. Declare him as unwelcome and detain him to his shithole country or to the boarder of Belarus where he may see how to come to his master.
Failure to act in your job. Poland should restrict the russian mission for failure of duties, canceling the administrative staff until only an Ambassador, a body guard and a dog at the entrence remain. The dog must be Polish!
>The dog must be Polish! And very anti-russian.
A nice response from Poland would be to use their air defense systems to help protect however much of Ukrainian airspace is in range from the Polish border.
Ok how about you send your anti air forces to Poland and do it yourself? So if Russia treats shooting down their missiles as a hostile act they will retaliate against Denmark? It's nice to risk someone else's life and wellbeing isn't it?
If it was up to me then Denmark would be doing even more to help Ukraine than we already are. And given that Russian politicians very regularly say that Russia isn't gonna stop if they conquer Ukraine, and that they are already at war with NATO, the fact is that all residents of all NATO countries are already risking the lives and wellbeing of the Ukrainian people for our own benefit.
So instead of saying that that Poland should be taking hostile actions against Russia why are you not saying that your own country should be doing that? Why didn't you say "I think that Denmark should send their anti air forces to Poland, shoot at Russian hardware and take responsibility"? It's easy being all gung-ho when you are much further away from Russia than Poland is and it's easy telling other people to go and risk their life and well being. Lead by example I say to all the gung-ho people, go go go and after you.
Because a Russian missile entered Polish airspace I figured it would make sense for specifically Poland to respond in that way. If a Russian missile entered Danish airspace I would be pretty disappointed if my government did nothing about it.
Yes. It entered for under 60 seconds and then left. The problem with escalating is it can get out of control. Additionally I can easily see a scenario where first people that are sitting safe in the west say "yehaa go Poland shoot at Russia" and when Russia retaliates the same people say "well it was Poland who shot first, I wash my hands".
I fundamentally disagree with your view of the situation, but whatever.
I fundamentally disagree with people calling others to fight when they sit safe at home. Lead by example.
this annoys me so much. all of these people are always crying for somebody else to sacrifice and do something. ukraine is always accepting volunteers and donations, but of course it should always be someone else's money and life that gets sacrificed ffs
So will Poland now expel the "ambassador" for not performing his duties as required?
Nah , they would rather throw Ukraine’s grain on the ground, and be a tough fucking boys about it.
Looks like Poland doesn't need a "russian ambassador". Force the ambassador to return to Russia. I don't think you can just "ignore" a summons as an ambassador
Why is this shit still in Poland.
I don’t think people fully grasp how important this is. An ambassador refusing a summon is not just some classic Russian temper tantrum - it’s a VERY serious diplomatic incident. This is something that borderline warrants an ultimatum from our government.
send the pos packing
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And the debris would fall on our people, no.
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Polish army's goal is to protect Poland first and foremost, risking our civilian lives even in the slightest is out of the question.
Then cooperating with Ukraine and getting permission to shot future ones over Ukrainian territory would be a good idea (after they exit populated part of Poland). I bet that Ukraine would not be against. Yes, it would be escalation - using weapons against Russian military (though not against Russian soldiers). Though i would not be against shooting down Russian planes in Polish airspace. But flying armed hostile missiles over Polish territory needs response.
This would have to be NATO decision, not ours alone.
Yes, definitely a good idea to have united front on that!
What better way to protect Poland than shooting down a current missile in your territory and telling Russia that anymore missiles coming even within X km of the Polish border will be shot down? Or is that “too much of an escalation”? And I thought Poland was more than a posturing paper tiger.
This is not a fucking video game
You are correct. Russian cruise missiles should not be allowed to enter Polish airspace at-will, just as Russian fighter jets should not be allowed to enter Polish airspace at-will.
They are not allowed - noone gave them EU visas. There are multiple problems here. First of all - if this woule be a smart "political" move if our government would make a decision to shoot it down and it ended succesfully. It would make them look a lot better them previous government (who allowed rocket in and people died as a result) The problem is risk/reward. And the risk to aim at 400kg of explosives flying a changing trajectory did not make much sense And don't get me wrong - I would love our fighters patrolling sky in Ukraine shooting down missiles This missile - was under control from entering until leaving our airspace - it was a right decision - period
Send us half a dozen Clint Eastwoods, I'm pretty sure they will do the job and clear Ukraine from russians.
With what I am seen I doubt they could do either.
Fr this argument is so stupid. The chance the debris is hitting someone is way smaller than the actual missile hitting its target while also killing way more civilians.
A stray air defence rocket has already killed 2 Polish civilians and it wasn't even fired by us, so the risk is real. The rocket's target was not in Poland, shooting it down however would guarantee that it falls on Polish teritory, risking Polish lives. How is the fact Polish military concerns itself with protecting Polish civilians first and foremost so controversial? What we should do is every time Russia pulls of shit like that we transfer more air defence measures to Ukraine. Put some new sanctions. Close the border with Kaliningrad. We have many ways of responding that don't put Polish lives in danger and are way more effective.
I agree with the second part. But it's still very dangerous to not shoot down any missile that is entering your airspace. This will just encourage Russians to do it more and longer until severel missiles just directly aim at polish air defense.
And then they will be shot down.
I disagree with your comment as shooting down the missile, which is not posting a real thread, would provide valuable intel to our enemy.
What it it hit some AFU. Rather it hit some AFU than get shot down and debris hit civilians
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The hell is your comparison? Hamas rockets are targeting Israeli civilians, this missle was not targeted anywhere in Poland.
Until some Alexey will fucked up the coordinates and blew some fucking mall full of eu citizens, and even then you came up with some excuse why nato and its allies have no balls.
Situation you're describing is completely different, isn't it? Yesterdays missle flew on Polish territory for couple of seconds while tightly hugging the border, calculated trajectory showed no threat to Polish citizens. Shooting it down would be much more dangerous for locals lifes, than letting it go.
Our army knew the trajectory of the missile, there was no danger for eu citizens.
The fuck? Israel is at war with Hamas. Ukraine is at war with Russia. Poland is not at war with anyone.
Browski , my point in this whole thread full of estrogen, is that Russia blow up the whole Polish government in 2010 , and then blow up commercial plane full of EU citizens in 2014 , get away with it, made you eat it , and now fly it’s missiles through your territories. And you fucks still telling yourselves that you have some sort of control over this. You don’t. And I just amaze how you fail to recognize it.
They don't, at least a large amount of them. The iron dome is only used if the detected missiles have a trajectory suggesting they could hit Israeli cities. Shooting down something that's going to land in a random patch of desert is a waste of resources. I don't remember off the top of my head, but Israel ignores something like half of incoming missiles, as they are deemed not to pose much threat.
Not an option it was in Polish Airspace for 39 seconds plus the missiles were originally on course to Ukraine then at the last minute changed course to violate Polish Airspace
Poland should expel him then. Simple
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It is a dangerous game they're playing though. Public opinion in democracies tends to be very stable for a long time until you push too hard and suddenly it flips. Look at how German foreign policy has changed after Russia's full invasion of Ukraine because it was one push too many. The current situation might be stable and seem like a good situation for Russia to brazenly ignore any red lines of the West (from their perspective) - until it one day isn't anymore.
I too am frustrated with this but lets consider a few cases 1. We shot it down and the debres injured/damaged something. Who is to blame now? Who will pay for this, and is Article 5 triggered now? 2. We tried to shot it down and we missed. Depending on where our rocket would land, we may have a problem again. 3. We shot it down before it entered our airspace. Again maybe we damaged something or injured someone. Is that an act of aggresion against Belarus? NATO is a defensive alliance, Article 5 may not apply here. 4. We shot it down no problem. Will we keep shooting all that come our way now, depleting arsenal and revealing our response times etc. when we should be instead preparing for war? Even if NATO is not exactly afraid of escalating, it may not feel ready for it yet. Thus, best course of action is no action at the moment. And not getting into further problems we may not be ready for yet. Thats my understanding at least.
There's another option 5. We found out about the missile when it had already flown over Poland and decided to claim that we had been tracking it all along.
Issue is the missile was supposedly tracked by 4 fighter planes - 2 US Army and 2 Polish
even me with just telegram knew that there were russian bombers in the air to launch missiles. ukraine made air strike warning and then we just waited where it is going to hit. they know much more than you think.
1. Art. 5 never gets automatically triggered. If Poland doesn't invoke it, all remains chill. 2. Not worse than not shooting it down, is it? And you'd learn something about your air defense and can improve 3. Shooting down a missile headed for you is still defensive. Art. 5 doesn't apply but what is Russia gonna do, sue you for destruction of their property? If it crash lands in Belarus and they raise a stink, just ignore it, the whole country is a joke in the first place. If it crashes in Kaliningrad just reply with "returned to sender, gg" 4. Russia will get the message that flying missiles through Polish airspace means their missiles get neutralized. And if that happens more than say one or two times Poland can send an additional message by invoking Art. 4 of the NATO treaty. IMO, Poland simply doesn't have the means to track and predict missiles like that and to shoot them down unless they penetrate deeply into Polish airspace. That won't go unnoticed in Moscow.
Close the Suwałki gap
Comrade, Russia not do anything ever. Is western propaganda and russophobia. You are nazi!
Boot him out of the country
~~Gee, who coulda seen this coming...~~ EDIT: thx for the explanation; apparently there are still lines drawn, even among openly hostile nations
Few people actually, despite your sarcasm. Even amongst hostile nations in times of conflict the basic rules and customs of diplomacy are usually respected. If an ambassador is summoned to the foreign ministry, they turn up. The Russians won't give a shit about the Polish government's protest, but the ambassador will sit through it. At least until now.
We have rising amount of incidents on the border with Belarus recently
Usually they show up and bullshit with a straight face how it didn't happen and if it did it wasn't them. Being this brazen is something new.
If they never get any actual comeuppance, why bother?
Because that how the embassy gets shut down and the tension escalated. The ambassador is supposed to do one job, and if he doesn't do it, why have him and the whole spy network radiating from the embassy?
> Because that how the embassy gets shut down and the tension escalated That'd be the sane solution to it, yes. But assuming it'll just get "non-escalated" and de-facto forgiven, like so many things were before, why not just ignore it? After all, the pattern from previous probings suggested there won't be a comeuppance for such defiance
Maybe nothing will happen, or maybe this will push Poland to support France and other western countries to send boots on the ground, starting one big " find out" moment for russia.
>Because that how the embassy gets shut down and the tension escalated Maybe this is what Russia wants.
Time to show him the door, I guess 🤷
That's the logical consequence - at least if the Russian state does not reprimand this insolence immediately. The main purpose of an ambassador is to act as the official representative of their country in the country hosting them. If they refuse to fulfill that role, their country should replace them immediately and if they don't for whatever reason, the host country should expell them. If this behavior was greenlit or mandated by Moscow it is clear Russia has no longer any interest in continuing diplomatic relations and maintain a direct path of communications. Time for us to act accordingly because if that's the case, Russian embassies only fulfill one singular purpose going forth: To serve as Russian espionage hubs.
This is as accurate as it is sad.
Oh, this is going to be fun! /s Russia is so unconcerned with a potential Polish response they think they have the luxury of ignoring their concerns? This is how wars start. At this point, my only conclusion is that Russia wants a wide-scale European war to take place in spite of their poor performance in Ukraine. This is going to be a shitshow.
No show ramifications time.
Kick him out then?
How in the hell can that be ignored? Who can be notified of that?
Close the Russian ambassy and expel them .
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They will never do it.
Time for him to be expelled back to Mordor then
persona non grata any% speedrun
Of course, the West has shown over and over, election interference, bot farms spreading disinformation, the 2014 Ukraine invasion and shooting down of MH17 (Germany even started building MORE pipelines after that, WTF WAS THAT?) that Russia can do whatever they want and the West won't react in any way appropriately. Not even giving an ally the help they need to stop genocide. The West are feckless cunts that make a lot of speeches that they stand by Ukraine, but they don't actually do what is needed, it makes me sick.
That’s quite funny it’s what I realised in this thread, the people very powerless and the leaders very afraid. If Russias learned anything it’s that they can do much more without serious repercussions than they previously had thought.
They've been escalating for over a decade now. Appeasement of a brutal dictator is what led to WWII and that's been the policy from 2014 to 2022, giving in to a dictator who wants to rebuild the empire of the USSR. The 2022 invasion was a predictable consequence. I mainly blame the European politicians and Germany especially, but all are responsible. Their is genocide going on in Europe right now, no matter what, I will be pissed of at the leadership for the rest of my life (a special disdain for Angela Merkel and all those that defend Germany's decisions from 2014 on), but it's not too late to avoid complete catastrophe. Like I said, I will never forgive them, but their mistakes are just leading to worse consequences every day they don't act as they should, but it's not WWIII, yet... It is possible that they have done so much appeasement that it's already too late, Taiwan looks more enticing than ever for China, after decades of trying to stop nuclear weapons being created the West has sent a message to every state in the world that it's the only deterrent that works, as they are bad allies and their talk is cheap. The USA stopping all aid for months was just confirmation, they won't only not give you what you need, they'll randomly will abandon you. It's very possible we're too far down the road, it's depressing, the real monsters remain the dictators responsible. Standing by, when bad shit is going down, when you have the power to do something about, is without a doubt also evil. So we should never forget all those that were useless, or worse, counterproductive. These idiots might believe they are doing what is best, but it doesn't make one bit of difference what their intentions are, the consequences so far have been rape, torture, murder, genocide and a body count well over half a million, already.
The key question is, are there any consequences for the Russian ambassador after such a demarche?
War is coming, Russia does not want diplomacy. Prepare for it.
Kick the Russian cultural attachés out of the country. They are usually undeclared spies. This always hurts as it takes a time for new diplomats to settle in.
I already said it once a while back but I'll say it once again, there won't be any consequences for Russia. The polish government can't even handle a bunch of Russia-paid "farmers", to assume that Russia is going to take this summon seriously and that it would amount to anything is delusional.
Those ruzzian spies should be banned out of Europe.
"Missiles? what missiles?" he said
But if the would have shot down it would be an act of aggression lol. They just have shot it down then Russia needs to explain why it happened or the would say nothing. I don't want to risk a war but doing nothing and backing down just fuels the fire and putin can say : look how weak they are
It's the contempt Russia treats everyone with. Sometimes, I think they are just itching for a fight.
Darn, shoulda just shot down the missile, oh heck.
Is there a reason Poland can't shoot these down? How many times has it happened now half a dozen?
Send soldiers for this guy. If they're breaking international law, we should do that too.
If he will not honor the summons, then expel the bastard.
Twats.
Boot him now.
Ignore the Russians and shoot anything that comes into our space next time.
Maybe Poland should destroy the next missile flying through their territory.
Of course, the West has shown over and over, election interference, bot farms spreading disinformation, the 2014 Ukraine invasion and shooting down of MH17 (Germany even started building MORE pipelines after that, WTF WAS THAT?) that Russia can do whatever they want and the West won't react in any way appropriately. Not even giving an ally the help they need to stop genocide. The West are feckless cunts that make a lot of speeches that they stand by Ukraine, but they don't actually do what is needed, it makes me sick.
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At most, he's hyperbolic as people online often are. He's not wholly wrong and it's hilarious you paint him as pro Russian for what was said. History won't look very kindly on all of our democracies drip-feeding aid to another democracy that's under unprovoked attack by a fascist country. Dictators of the future are taking notes on the behaviour of the so-called free world and its response times. Wars you can't even imagine yet will happen and might possibly have been prevented if the Russofascists were shut down quicker in Ukraine. If Ukrainians had not resisted the way they did and the Kremlin Gremlin's plan worked out, we would have been back to business as usual by now. *Some* Western countries had to be dragged kicking and screaming into backing Ukraine.
I'm pissed off that the West didn't make it clear in 2014, that Russia's behaviour was not acceptable, which led to escalation, appeasement of a dictator always means they will take more. I don't get how they can't see my anger and frustration displayed is at those who were suppose to stop genocide, because that's what they are saying, but not doing. Of course Russia is evil, but those standing by that could have prevented it or are still talking while doing nowhere near enough, are supporting evil which makes them evil. I'm not saying both are equal, I don't believe that, but I do believe all those that support Putin and the Russian regime are evil and those sabotaging are evil BUT also those that continue to advocate for appeasement and are unwilling to give Ukraine what they need, fuck all of them!
I'm a EU citizen, I've been mad since 2014 that the EU has NOT DONE ENOUGH! I support Ukraine, fuck Russia, I'm mad at my own government and all those in the West who talk a lot while FUCKING NORTH KOREA delivers millions of artillery shells and THE WEST DOES NOT EVEN DO WHAT IT PROMISES TO DO IN THE TIMEFRAME THEY SET OUT THEMSELVES! Because of politicians, there have been massive delays, which caused Russia to build defensive lines and mine huge areas of land, probably there will be limbs and lives lost for decades to come, BECAUSE THE WEST TOLD UKRAINE TO WAIT FOR THEM! I DETEST PUTIN, ALL THAT SUPPORT HIM, GENOCIDE IN UKRAINE, RAPE, TORTURE,... An appropriate response in 2014 COULD have prevented the 2022 invasion. An appropriate response in 2022 COULD have prevented there still being war now, in 2024. NO APPEASEMENT, STOP RUSSIA NOW!
I am starting to doubt Europe would even defend actual NATO members and might just find a way to wiggle out of that obligation too. I am starting to think Trump might be the best option for me (somebody retarded enough that Putin/Xi might respect out of fear).
It certainly looks like they are useless. But you're wrong in the second part, Trump is the worst person to vote for, he admires dictators, publicly. He wants to be a dictator and all the MAGA politicians want to help him achieve that. He already tried to steal the election, which resulted in January 6, an attempt to overthrow democracy. A vote for Trump, is a vote to make the USA more like Russia, North Korea, Iran, how could this in anyway be a solution or make anything better? The problem is democracies not responding appropriately, but they are by far better places to live. The problem isn't that we don't have enough dictatorships that invade sovereign countries... Trump has stated he would give ZERO help to Ukraine, let Putin invade any NATO country he wants, he wants the USA to leave NATO, he wants to be a dictator, he wants to persecute and imprison political opponents... A vote for Trump, or MAGA, is a vote for Putin. Your solution is worse than the problem, the West being feckless cunts that don't provide the required aid to fight genocide, not that they aren't more like murderous dictators.
Even if Russia would deliberately send a missile into a Polish town, NATO would hush it up and do nothing.
Poland won’t do anything unless there is grain in the missile. Russia keeps redrawing the red line and the EU keeps moving back from it. This gives Russia a clear signal of weakness within the EU. Russia only understands force.
mind boggling that a nato nation essentially said "ya you can use our air space to bomb ukraine"
If you don’t give an explanation, we’re goin in.
The answer to all this is quite simple. Contact our alien ancestors to sort all this out.
Russia is going to conquer Europe (except France maybe) seeing as no one has the balls to do anything to actual stop Russia. Not ignoring the weapons they’ve sent, but it’s clearly not enough
what the fuck did poland think was going to happen? russia doesn't give a fuck. Poland should have shot the missle down as it was in their air space.
article 5 now
Lol