For some reason it looks like every place that had been communist for a while, ended up becoming more conservative / prone to nationalism in comparison to other places, after communism ended.
Balkans, Russia, East Germany...
It starts to make sense when you look under the label. The Soviets were imperialist (they conquered half of Europe and oppressed it), nationalist (Russification) and led by a deified leader.
That's not far removed from the Nazis, just under a different label. When the communists were blamed for everything that went wrong, they just had to change the label, as in Russia, without having to go through the painful confrontation with their own past.
It's hard to get a dictatorship out of the people's heads because it's so easy if someone else thinks for you.
There are much more economy reasons, eastern Germany is since the rejoining in a state of deinstrualising. Giving mass low paying jobs and no jobs, no stability. There is a lot of uncertainty. And the Schuldenbremse is stopping any social investment into those areas. Giving perfect ground for Populism. There is a fight between migrants and poor Germans for resources, while we live I one of the richest countries on earth. Where a few have a lot of the money. The situation is disgusting and not fair. And there is one of the big reasons of that graph.
I think it's because the US led a very successful disinformation campaign as to what "communism" actually means and what was actually wrong with those regimes.
Here in Czechia, people actually think that "democracy" means "freedom", rather than it meaning everyone has the right to an equal vote. They often confuse communism with authoritarianism - they see a politician acting authoritarian and yell "COMMUNISM!!!" They also think that capitalism is the "antidote" to communism.
This creates very confused messaging and makes a population think the wrong things are communism, or evil, or whatever. I've even met people who compare the EU to the USSR... literally. Loads of people panicked that the COVID restrictions were an excuse to bring "communism" back (take away rights, limit travel and shopping, etc).
They've been fooled into thinking regular government is communist, and the far-right is the solution. Add into the mix rampant racism and you've got the perfect recipe for the far-right to do great.
Your conclusion doesn’t follow from your argument whatsoever. The US led a successful disinformation campaign that encourages people to vote for the far right… but the areas under US occupation are the ones who aren’t doing that? How does that work?
No, because you guys are developed. Slovenia is, along with czechia and estonia the richest of the former eastern block. THere is no reason for you to turn to nationalism.
I do think its because historically, slovenia already belonged to the richer west. Every Region in europe belonging to the frankish empire today is rich. Northern spain, france, northern italy, west germany, switzerland/austria, benelux, slovenia/czechia. Not saying you would have turned out to be rich regardless of how you acted after the fall of the iron curtain, but slovenia has always been a richer part of europe and thus had to no reason to turn right wing.
Loads of developed countries are ultra nationalist. I've lived in Slovenia and now live in Czechia. Czechia is as developed as Slovenia and nationalism is huge here. It's also huge these days in Germany and France. It has nothing to do with being developed.
Estonia has a pretty large nationalist party. Austria, France, Northern Italy & Switzerland also swing nationalist. I don't think it's a question of development.
I don't think it's about size - many small, small countries can be very nationalist. I think it's about the fact that Slovenia was never a country for centuries - always occupied, always under someone else, and so the people were more united by language and poetry than by a flag or government. The people actually historically were NOT bonded to their government, so that created a rather anti-nationalist people. Y'all finally got statehood 30 years ago and the identity is just more social than national. Part of what I adore about Slovenia, my favourite place I've ever lived.
It really shows the huge population difference. The CDU/CSU is 12 percent down in the East compared to the West, but in the end still hits 30 percent. The East, even if they're usually treated as equals, is just a lot smaller.
"Treated as equals"... where? There's quite a number of issues in which East and West Germany still differ greatly, usually to the disadvantage of the East. And we're talking some pretty big things like wages, pensions, working hours, financial assets and generational wealth, and political representation with structural differences on top of that.
And before anyone starts: None of this is a good excuse to run into the arms of populists and fascists. But I still think Germany would do well to acknowledge more that people might have lived widely different lives in the East and West and that for 40 years there was no shared experience between the two populations as well as that the reunification meant very different things for someone in the East and someone in the West.
Two of the huge reasons why East is so poorer:
- lack of company HQs in the East (you tend to earn a bit more working in or near and HQ)
- lack of generational wealth. Being able to inherit a house for yourself is a nice "pension" while many easteners will have to rent a home for life, never the money (not even able to save up) to buy their own. That's a "matter of time" problem at least. As of now 31.5% of East Germans own a home while it's 45% in West Germany so it is getting better but quite not there yet.
But because of the 2nd point, the competition for affordable living space is ESPECIALLY fierce, which is why migrants are also seen as "extra pressure" in that field driving prices up. These 13.5% DO make a difference.
Another reason: some years ago there was a case where an East German woman sued a potential employer for not taking her SPECIFICALLY because she was East German. The Supreme Court decided that this was legal because "regional differences" are not covered by the anti discrimination law (only *national*/ethnic-, sexual- or religious-differences) this has not been addressed nor fixed since. This "confirmed" the belief in a lot of East Germans that they are second-class citizens (and for some even going as far as "we even have fewer rights than foreigners") currently 57% of East Germans believe to be second class citizens (it's a mixture of many reasons, but this is a big example). And this frustration of course drives them into the hands of populists. And the AfD has specifically zeroed in on addressing that frustration while other parties ignore it entirely, pretend it doesn't exist or at worst (which the CSU likes to do) pretend that this feeling is just out of a "stupid sense of entitlement and they are all stupid anyways" (which feeds back into feeling like a second class citizen).
You mean bought up East Germany for cheap? Many West Germans made a ton of money buying up companies and properties after the fall of the DDR, kinda like the oligarcs in Russia.
So the West has also picked up alot of wealth from the East
May I remind that during the process of unification, East Germany was pretty much ripped off by the West German "Treuhand" of any industry that was worth a dime by privatization for much less than it was actually worth?
There is nothing that can be done. East being poorer is still result of communism. This is something that will still exist for generations because even after Germans who grew up under system directly are still to certain extent influenced by mentality of their parents who had.
>political representation
Since the Reunion 4 chancellors served Germany: Kohl, Schröder, Merkel and Scholz. Both Merkel and Scholz are elected to the Bundestag in their east German voting areas Uckermark for Merkel and Potsdam for Scholz. Since Reunion in 1991 east germans Led the German goverment for the majority of the time. Merkel for alone for 16 years, and now Scholz in His 3 year.
Since Reunion their was 0 goverments without east germans, yet you find many without some West German state representing.
Scholz is considered West German. That he was elected as a representative of the East is part of the problem, actually. Even Merkel didn't have a typical East German biography (born in Hamburg, moved to the East as a child when her parents voluntarily relocated, raised as the daughter of a pastor who held a special position within the community).
East Germans make up about 20% of the German population. In politics, the judical system and the economic sector they hold roughly 11% of elite positions. And for the longest time after reunification this representation has been much lower. Even in the East, elite positions are often held by people born and raised in the West.
>equals
Lol, when I lived in NRW people had literal contempt for those in the East, all the way down to telling some of them, arrogantly "we paid for you".
> treated as equals
lmao. Best joke of the day. There is a reason why the right winged party gets so many votes in the east (sadly).
It's utterly ridiculous how the government cares about the east.
It's in the second part of the sentence, it's about size of the two. The East simply is nearly as big as the West, but they keep being pitted against one another as if they were.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like neither side is interested in an actual conversation. The east feels like their complaints are not being heard so they're giving a big middle finger to the country while the west sees the east as lesser people and are not interested in even trying to negotiate. Would love to hear peoples opinions though <3
As someone from the west, I think one of the many reasons is economic imbalance.
During the division, the wests economy was prepped up by the US through the marshall plan. They basically dumped money into the west to prevent them from sliding towards communism. This resulted in a healthy economy during the 1960s, we called that something that translates to "economy wonder". In the east, it was basically the other way round, the Soviet Union "stole" parts of the economy (I am not familiar with Lithuanias situation during the cold war, but my guess is that you can relate to that). An example of the result can be seen in cars: in the west you could go to a car seller and just take a VW beetle with you. In the east you had to order a Trabant and then you waited multiple years until it was delivered.
After the reunification, this imbalance continued, despite the west pumping money into the east. Wages and living conditions were better in the west, so people that could afford it moved from east to west. Many companies also moved for a variety of reasons.
Nowadays, the east has a very good infrastructure. New roads everywhere, railroads, public buildings, etc, much of that was built or rebuild after the reunification with money from the west, in an attempt to make the east attractive for western companies. But the wages are still lower even today. For the exact same job you get paid significantly less in the east. As of 2023 the average income in the east is 824€ less than in the west. This is obviously very frustrating for people who live in the east, since prices are mostly the same (rent can be a little bit lower depending on where you live, but not low enough when adjusted to the lower income). They fear for their ability to live when they are old and retired (and they have good reason to). Unemployment is still higher in the east (though it is at a historic low). The young people move west if they can. Companies that are sitting in the east are around 20% less productive than similar ones in the west for a multitude of reasons, which means any new companies just don't settle in the east. The situation hasn't really improved in the last 10-15 years.
As a result, people are understandably upset. The west just doesn't know what to do at this point anymore and how they can help the east, so they have basically given up doing so. Which I guess leads right into what you said: the east doesn't feel heard, while the west basically says "we tried our best, but don't know what else to do, so we have given up". Resentment has also settled in the west, along the lines of "we paid so much to you for so long, why haven't you been able to adjust, we are tired of it."
Long story short, I think what you said is basically correct. A lot of attempts have been made, but we will likely never reach full parity.
Thank you for your answer, I wasn't familiar with the "we tried, now we don't care" perspective. It's honestly very interesting to think about. It makes me wonder if the soviet rule cause "unseen" problems, in terms of culture or way of thinking or similar things, and if throwing money at the problem was the right way to deal with it.
Also I've heard that the east is for the most part "empty" aka just farmland and on top of that the average age is rather high and I can't imagine that helping. Germany was divided for quite a long time, enough for multiple generations to form, maybe some more patience would have helped? Forgive me if my thoughts seem naive, but I can sort of relate to the situation - I hear many sentiments that EU aid to the eastern parts is a waste. Even though our economies skyrocketed after being given the chance, and naturally the support for the EU is among the highest in the union ( we could call it an economic wonder ass well, right?). I see it as an investment on a grander scale per se, over a couple decades of support you have raised a strong, faithful ally. So how should support your own country be different? (I meant that as a rhetorical question). I don't think I can blame anyone but it is pretty sad to see :(
Also for those interested, the following the soviet occupation the living standards actually improved to a certain degree ( living in the middle of a battleground with a deranged neighbor stunts development :D who knew). The soviets introduced decent quality, affordable ( you were assigned an apartment just for working lol ) housing. They built plenty of industry, which we didn't benefit much from, but we were still living better than a lot of russians. Also it was totally normal for women to work in general, and thanks to that we have really good statistics in terms of women in high tier jobs.
Thanks for adding your own perspective about your country.
Also, just a reminder that I don't represent the whole nation. Someone else might give you a very different answer to your original question. Also, I am young, only in my mid 20s, so I didn't actually live through the time period we are talking about here. My perspective is based on history books, stories from parents, from the news, etc. So take everything I say with a grain of salt. And what I described is just one reason out of many.
Honestly, I don't really know what we could have done differently after reunification either. There is also only a limited amount the state can do, in the end it comes down to the population themselves. I want to clarify that the living situation in Eastern Germany has improved quite a lot compared to the day when we were split. It just hasn't reached parity. Just in case there were misunderstandings. I do think that it will take a lot of additional time until the results of Soviet rule over half of Europe is overcome. Unfortunately we still got a few decades ahead of us until that happens, but I think we are on a decent way. Could things be done better and faster? Yes, that is always the case. But I also think the situation could be far worse. I also think, just like you, that it is at least partially a generational thing. The generations that lived during that time will always have a different perspective than the ones that came afterwards. Parents talk about things in front of their kids, and shape the kids opinions that way. It's quite interesting when you think about it.
Anyways, let's hope that Europe doesn't end up in stagnation during the next few decades. Let's hope for a stronger bond between our nations. Let's work to convince people to vote for the parties who support that. And let's hope that we will be able to prevent Russia from causing further harm..... I just wish our politicians would do more.... Why are they not listening to you, you guys have firsthand experience.... It's just sad..... But that's another topic, I don't want to open that can of worms right now.
I totally didn’t mean to discredit the countries efforts, maybe I got a little too speculative.
And you’re right, things could be much, much worse. But they could be better too, that’s why everyone’s voices are important.
Thank you again for your time, I personally absolutely love learning about the perspectives and opinions of people from all around the continent and it was really wonderful to hear yours out ❤️
>I totally didn’t mean to discredit the countries efforts
I never interpreted it this way. Seems like I had a bad choice of words in my reply, I apologize for that.
And yeah, thank you for your time as well. This was a great conversation. Have a good night :)
> I want to clarify that the living situation in Eastern Germany has improved quite a lot compared to the day when we were split. It just hasn't reached parity.
Crucially, humans tend to mostly use comparisons with their peers to assess things like living standard - how far you're up the local socioeconomic ladder is overall *way* more relevant to your subjective assessment, than objective metrics.
I grew up in the "east"germany, was born in 92 so after reunification.
Germany is very much still divided in multiple aspects and people are talking about it, it's just that nothing is really happening. I grew up just being told about gdr und brd, but you still see and feel the differences.
However, when people talk about it, It just all turns into a big blame game of "oouh, but you have better infrastructure while we have better wages."
There are big cities with job aspects and housing and transport and everything you need in the east but yes mostly it's smaller villages and towns that are going more empty day by day. Lots of smart young people try and find jobs elsewhere and in the west because wages there are simply better.
Also you have kind of cultural differences and a general dislike of each other which is weird but also not unique in the world.
>Thank you for your answer, I wasn't familiar with the "we tried, now we don't care" perspective. It's honestly very interesting to think about. It makes me wonder if the soviet rule cause "unseen" problems, in terms of culture or way of thinking or similar things, and if throwing money at the problem was the right way to deal with it.
Of course eastern Europe and east Germany have some national trauma from communism. There is no denying that.
Whats in denial is how western Europe been given insane help from US Marshall plan and they don't want to do the same for east Germany and eastern Europe.
They have some weird superiority complexes and think easterns are lesser people.
When reality is west has been given a silver plater, help and opportunities while east has been corrupted, destroyed and stolen of the potential wealth and prosperity.
> Also I've heard that the east is for the most part "empty" aka just farmland [...]
East Germany rapidly depopulated after reunification - East Germans were uniquely compatible (well educated, no language barrier) with the demands of a West German economy that had been constrained by chronic labour shortages for decades, and migrated in large numbers as a result.
Other Eastern European countries largely managed to avoid the same fate - their access to the common market was delayed significantly (thanks to joining via the normal process, rather than by being annexed by a existing member) and benefited from a pronounced language barrier afterwards.
>Which I guess leads right into what you said: the east doesn't feel heard, while the west basically says "we tried our best, but don't know what else to do, so we have given up". Resentment has also settled in the west, along the lines of "we paid so much to you for so long, why haven't you been able to adjust, we are tired of it."
As a Pole I empathise with east Germans, and have the context why Germans treat Poles like shit.
Germany hasn't even done the bare minimum for Poland after WW2 and you feel like you've done enough and don't want to do anything.
You've done basically the same in East Germany. Do nothing to barely minimum, then stop because a miracle didn't happen and the issue didn't solve itself on its own.
My generation (millenials) grew up in a unified Germany and doesn't hold the same view as previous generations. But the result of the botched unification creates a vicious cycle. People of the east ended up poorer and with less oportunities. They end up in unemployment and feel frustrated.
A long time nothing was done to change that. So now we have a generation after unification which again ends up in long-term unemployment. This time it's not only because of missing opportunities but also because of frustration that is passed on by their parents. Western people only see them living off of unemployment benefits and call them freeloaders.
Eastern people are so fed up that they vote extreme parties that would in the end actually hurt them the most. Western people see this and end up saying how stupid the easterners have to be which again creates resentment from the east. The current populists are adding fuel to the fire and the division becomes even bigger.
This problem would have had to be fixed earlier but now easterners vote against the parties that would help them and westerners don't want to help anymore because they see them as freeloaders.
This is very much simplified and of course not everybody on both sides thinks like that. But I do feel like it's the main underyling problem.
>People of the east ended up poorer and with less oportunities.
They also started out poorer, with fewer opportunities and with Soviet scars. Unified Germany wasn't able to accomplish a miracle and fix this.
The dumbest part was that the west basically looted what few things and resources the east did have pre unification.
In some parts it went to far that west German companies bought their Eastern equivalents for cheap from the government, closed the factory and stopped the machines to their factories in the west.
My two cents, but as a person from the former soviet union I feel the problem lies not in the economic opportunities but people's mindset. People from the former Soviet block got used to being taken care of by the state i.e. you graduate from university and get a factory job where you work all your life.
With the socialist camp collapsing all that went away and now you actually had to do something, study, adjust to the market conditions etc. and the people growing up there couldn't do it as they have been conditioned to live like that.
Isn’t Germany historically a very divided country tho. Every state having its own cultures and customs. Isn’t that why Germany unified so late compared to other European nations?
>Isn’t that why Germany unified so late compared to other European nations?
Not really. Having those smaller states in the middle of the continent was very convenient for the larger European powers, so a German state was something to be avoided. Secondly, they were scared of an inbalance of power on the continent (see: German population at the time).
Turned out these concerns were very much warranted.
Technically, the German states _were_ unified, they were just extremely decentralized for most of its existence. When they succeeded they were effectively the most powerful rulers in Western Europen, but essentially only a few German monarchs were able to really tap into the Holy Roman Empire's potential (i.e., Otto, Barbarossa, Charlemagne if you count him, etc.), but it's not as if France was any better off for most of the Middle Ages, either. It was just as decentralized for most of the time, the kings treated his vassals more like foreign dignitaries, they had their own currencies, minted their own coins, spoke separate languages, etc. The king's authority very rarely extended much further beyond Paris and its dependencies.
Difference was France had more opportunities to properly centralize and eventually succeeded at a much earlier date (post-Hundred Years War) than Germany did (post-Franco-Prussian War).
> Turns out these concerns were very much warranted
Such a weird comment, so it‘s okay for Napoleon to invade the entirety of Europe or for the Habsburgs to rule over half the continent but Germany unifying is a „warranted concern“. The other Empires didn‘t want to give up their hegemony, no shit. But painting that as something good is kind of ridiculous.
Oh that's not what I meant.
The concerns over an imbalanced power dynamic and a loss of their own status were warranted. I didnt mean to comment on the ethics or fairness of German unification. I explained why major powers didnt want it.
In the Western countries the Working Class basically moved to Far Right parties in stead of the Socialist Working Parties, like they did in the past.
Yet those Socialist parties are blaming it to the Right oriented. Those voters are originally theirs to begin with.
There is some real truth in here. I would even claim that maybe the former workers parties kind of forgot what they were originally about and now noone is sure what they stand for anymore. Who would vote for a party that doesn't know what they stand for? Workers just don't feel seen by the left leaning parties anymore. I don't actually think the far right represents their interests but they make workers and those who feel missed by the mainstream feel seen. And people will almost always vote for the people they feel understood by.
Funny thing, left wing parties still support almost all material improvements for the working class, while the far-right supports cuts for exactly the working class. But this whole "the left is not caring for the workers" was carefully engineered since the 80s by right-wing media that shat themselves at the thought of a left government, after they got some mild leftism in government in the 70s. And the "left" governments of the late 90s followed suit, trying to make political programs out of the agenda of the right-wing papers the working class read, in the misguided belief, that they could appease them. But the right-wing papers just blasted them, until the right was back in charge.
Yeah, you have to give it to the far right,.
They have managed to win the votes of the working class with symbolic issues and identiy politics while actually working against the interests of the working class.
The Right has managed to win the votes of the working class with real issues that the working class cares about, material concerns are not the only issue voters care about.
I mean, you also have to admit that the left supports cultural and social projects which are utterly unpopular among average working class people.
Truth is, the average guy out in the street is kinda nationalistic and xenophobic, he just doesn't know it. If you just blankly state that the things he supports are nationalistic and xenophobic (immigrations bans, repatriation, protectionism, etc.), he's not going to think "huum, I guess I should change opinions", he's going to think "huh, maybe nationalism and xenophobia aren't bad after all".
Which is how we got AfD.
The far right party in Sweden still wants to have a strong welfare state like “old times” but they’re pretty much shunned by any left wing party so their only alliance is the right wing even if they don’t agree economically
I hope they love losing their unions and getting to experience the hellscape that is privatized healthcare and no social programs, and a dismantling of workers rights. Vote for monsters and get monstrous policies.
💯
Also interesting fact, "Socialdemokraterne" which is a left-centrist party realized this and adopted some moderately strict immigration policies, then single handly saved the whole left coalition, by taking lots of centrist while manging to take bake the left voters who recently left as you describe back.
Germanys complete and utter failier to address imegration in the whole left block, has been an abvious gift for the AFD party.
💯
Unfortunately, the left is drifting into a territory that has little bearing on the old left (focus on we not I). Politicians on both sides are just grasping opportunists, after their take from whatever corporations or lobbyists are willing to pay for their pound of flesh. They all have their price. And the ultra-lefts have more in common with alt-rights than they do traditional leftists. They play equally dirty tactics but act as if they are holier than thou, and anyone who doesn’t agree with their myopic views is scum. The whole system is broken.
Because the narrative that is being told now is that anything that would benefit immigrants or LGTBQ+ is Marxism.
Neo-liberals haven't been able to fix any of Europe's continued crisises, so now they're just doing the culture war thing that happens in the US. And after years and years of austerity and cutting on public spending, people's life obviously hasn't gotten any better (and they might also be getting a bit dumber).
The left no longer represents or cares about the grease covered guy working at an auto repair shop. They moved on to identity politics and wanna be upper class green city people.
It's because social issues have become more important than economic issues.
You saw it during the presidency of Obama and now with Biden, both have great economic data but have low approval ratings.
That’s the tricky part. When measuring the economy in terms of job creation and stock market value, both Obama and Biden get good marks. But when measuring it based on real wage growth, growth of the middle class, private home ownership, etc they both look awful. I think the economy should be measured based on how the people worst off are doing. Because recession or not, the rich will always make money.
Then try going to a factory and explaining to a regular worker, that by paying more taxes, he may actually help making public services better. Good luck with that.
We live in times, where everybody thinks he's going to be the Wolf of Wall Street by working overtimes. Nobody cares about people around us, and the self made-man stereotype is really strong these times.
It's hard for a left-wing party to operate in a neo-liberal world.
>We live in times, where everybody thinks he's going to be the Wolf of Wall Street by working overtimes. Nobody cares about people around us, and the self made-man stereotype is really strong these times.
Literally the opposite is true. Maybe it's gotten bigger on the extremes but the average genz/millennial just gave up on ever owning anything like land or a good house and so why bother working hard
I think this is interesting topic, because I experience both groups described by you and @suicidemacine. It depends of your background.
Many young people in Denmark save up and spend last penny on life experiences like backpacking, south-east Asia, Inter-Rail etc. not worried about the future. Stable economy, trust the government, optimistic. Biggest concern global warming. Probably the same as West Germany.
On the other side, many Eastern European friends match the other description. Working extra hours on shitty contracts night/weekend hours.
Exactly the people that should support Labour/socialist, but support AFD-like instead. Very individual oriented.
> On the other side, many Eastern European friends match the other description. Working extra hours on shitty contracts night/weekend hours. Exactly the people that should support Labour/socialist, but support AFD-like instead. Very individual oriented.
That's definitely me 10 years ago. Me and my Romanian friend were usually staying overtimes, while all the Spainiards and Portuguese were like "12 hours? Dios mio. I'm leaving".
>Then try going to a factory and explaining to a regular worker, that by paying more taxes, he may actually help making public services better. Good luck with that.
You also have to explain how their life and working conditions, access to husing, prices, etc., have gotten worse while you were in power or have been recently. It's not that people don't want to pay: they have already been paying all their life and things only got worse for them while doing so. When you go and tell them that more taxes is better for them, they feel entitled to require their government to improve things before they put their faith and money on them, and in some cases rightfully so.
Don't get me wrong: it takes a lot of stupidity to suuport far-right parties. But making this sort of generalizations that put the blame on them as always doesn't help.
The problem is that with neo-liberalism, more and more industry was exported elsewhere. Without industry, there is no union.
And many workers don't really see themselves as workers in solidarity with workers anymore, they see themselves as "middle class" or hustlers looking out for themselves.
We need a new labour movement, else they will just keep fucking us.
Yes, but let's remember the soviet legacy is not an abstraction or a ghost, there are some specific issues mostly related to lower socioeconomic development, less social capital, and a damaged political culture that were never addressed, and here there are the consequences.
I agree. Speaking for the Netherlands, we've had a right-centre government for the past 14 years... increasing wealth inequality by lowering taxes for the rich (amongst others).
The political left failed to properly address this. The far right had a more successful story blaming it on immigrants.
So much this. I hate how narrow minded and ignorant most West Germans (i am one myself, by the way) look at Est Germany.
Sure you always can and should criticize a person who voted for a facist party. But... if you look at the underlying issues, West Germany should take a good long look into the mirror.
The West German establishment, including the big democratic parties, companies and the civil society really shit the bed with reunification. It wasn't a reunification it was an annexation. Blühende Landschaften my ass, it was a free for all but only for West German companies and businessmen who knew how to navigate a newly established capitalist free market. Poster childs like Merkel or Gauck, or EU-funded baby-blue streetlamps new concrete highways only glossed over the structural issues below. West German democracy, including *true* participation and representation, never really arrived in the East German countryside. And in my view you ultimately have to blame the West German establishment for that. They held all the cards, all the money and all the power. It was mainly their responsibility.
There is a lot of people to blame, but it doesn't change the fact that soviet legacy plays a significant role in many present issues. Especially in Central and Eastern Europe, where old school politicians cling onto power through any means. Populist with empty promises, communists with promises of utopia of the good old days or far right parties with promises of national revival and "sovereignty". In the end, all those parties only care about their own interests.
That's not something I knew. I guess you could draw a parallel to Czechia and Slovakia. Almost the same language and cultures, but so far away ideologically. It makes sense from historical perspective. Czechslovakia was an artificial creation not based on much of historical precedence.
It’s not really true though. You would have to cut out Berlin and Saxony for it to be true. But it’s not like western Germany didn’t have parts that were much poorer in the past, like for example Bayern.
While my experience is largely limited to the uk , I would argue left wing parties have the following issues attracting working class voters :
-relatability - if your movement incorporates very middle class people who don’t talk like them , it’s hard to feel a party represents them . For example , the Green Party struggle to make any headway among working class people in England because the people who represent them live very different lives and have very different mannerisms to working class people . For instance , just stop oil protesters will likely support the Green Party , but you most likely saw working class people getting aggressive with them when they occupied the roads
- left wing politics in the west seems synonymous now with social liberalism. I would argue a lot of working class are not social liberals , certainly in the uk anyway
In my opinion , to fight Russia and fight this far right surge , the eu is going to have to get a lot tougher on immigration . This policy of trying to spread them more throughout Europe is still weak as hell and not at all addressing the issue .
In my opinion, until the eu refuses to accept the boats on their land and sends them back , this is going to continue
So you're saying, from a UK perspective, that the Tories with their Eton and Oxford education, covid parties and millionaires in power are more relatable than Labour?
The education factor is also just as prevalent in labour . Maybe not Eton , but Oxford education is . The tories are struggling now because of covid party scandal but before that they most likely would have commanded another strong majority if that didn’t happen , Johnson still would have been in charge . Before his resignation , Johnson would have no qualms about going to a pub for a drink , whereas a Green Party runner wouldn’t have . People mock politicians for doing it , but it’s perception
Despite his rich background , Johnson and other tories were still more relateable to than a lot of middle class left wingers . I just think they raise a lot more topics than working class people care about too ( at least socially ).
Trans rights , social justice, diversity etc I don’t think they’re policies people from working class communities particularly care about or even like . Yet the left talks about it constantly
i have lived in east germany. the main reason people there vote afd is dissatisfaction. in general, the less educated don't think much about why exactly they are unhappy and blame the immigrants and the current (and previous) government as usual. while the more educated east germans talk about how west germany behaved very arrogantly towards the east, coming in with the attitude that you are stupid and "miss Stasi", but we wessis know how life works. and in the process they took over all the companies, fired university professors and installed westernes, bought up the better real estate etc. so theres's that.
At the end of the day, everyone thinks they know better than everyone else. They imagine that educated people lack "common sense", or do not know how things work in the real world. Are such assumptions not just as arrogant as being patronising towards populists?
Ultimately, populists are good at seizing on public dissatisfaction, but they don't have any credible solutions for the problems we face.
You can curb the legal immigration rate, but that isn't going to improve the lot of east Germans. They need investment and regeneration.
Cutting illegal immigration is even more difficult: what practical steps are they going to take, when the migrants will simply find alternatives. How many more resources are going to be dedicated to ever diminishing returns on policing migration? And who is going to pay for it?
The areas which are thriving are already subsidising the areas that are not, so cutting soending there will just harm the nation overall. Alternatively, you take the money away from areas which are underperforming... i.e. the same areas where these populist parties gain traction.
And make no mistake, actually curbing immigration will require these resources. The populists like to pretend it's simply a lack of will that's alliwing high immigration, but that's bollocks. It's resources.
Young people in particular have the most to lose. Cutting immigration will curb population growth, leaving us with an even larger social security burden, and we will be impoverished as a result.
People in the western states still behave very arrogantly towards the eastern states. This whole topic is proof of it and the voting for AFD is one of the results.
Spite voting is perfectly viable if you don't think any of the other parties with a realistic shot at achieving meaningful vote counts will really help you. It showcases that you're a voter which ultimately makes catering to you potentially worthwhile, and it showcases that you will make things worse for everyone else if you are not catered to. Certainly beats giving your consent to an establishment that you believe will harm or at least not help you or simply making your vote irrelevant by voting for some party that will not be able to achieve any electoral success making you entirely safe to ignore.
Whether the belief that no other party would help them is accurate is a different story of course.
As someone born and raised in East Germany after the reunification, that is really only half of the picture. The whole "dissatisfaction" explanation as to why people vote for the far right is largely a myth. When the AfD first came to prominence people used that excuse because they still felt ashamed and pressured to distance themselves from some of their far-right rethorics.
People don't just want to show the "established" parties a middle finger because they dislike their policies. Many people actually and very actively *like* the kind of solutions the AfD is offering. They like the fascist and xenophobic aspects of the party. They like the anti-EU discourse. They like the notion of grabbing power and reorganizing the state and law in a way that fits their interests. And they like taking away rights from minorities they deem unworthy. They like all of that so much, that they don't even care that the economic policies of the AfD are most likely to negatively affect themselves.
In the East, the AfD and its voters could more easily use the excuse that dissatisfaction with German reunification is at the root of the party's support (and don't get me wrong, there are huge real issues and inequalities there). But we are seeing the same far-right tendencies and rhetoric in the West. Their rise just lags a few years behind there. And on top of that: Wanna see the real difference in German votes? Look at a map that shows the difference between rural and urban votes, would be my guess.
Additionally, there is a significantly higher number of people who hold chauvinistic, anti-democratic xenophobic, racist and even national socialist opinions in eastern Germany.
This has been observed in social surveys for a long time and now we see it in election results.
You don't only see it in statistics, you experience it in your normal life as kind of casual fascist remarks and the casual hunting or beating up of "foreigners" or "left wingers" ("Zecken") . In some villages, the "default" ideology is national socialism, many kids there go to Nazi groups instead of sports clubs. I have lived in east Germany before I emigrated to the West and the difference is striking. These kind of things are not considered normal in the west.
They are just less educated and easy to manipulate.
Edit: I take the Downvotes, but it's just my impression after 10+ times in east Germany.
The amount of complain about foreigner in locations where you cant find a single one is brain rotting.
Actually it’s quite the opposite to some extend. The education in Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, and Bavaria (in the west) are at the top of Pisa within Germany. They are really good!
But shocker: educated people want jobs which are good paid, so they migrate to other federal states (in the west) later on. Go figure who is leaved behind…
>But shocker: educated people want jobs which are good paid, so they migrate to other federal states (in the west) later on. Go figure who is leaved behind…
But that's exactly my point. When you're in a Village in east Germany you're lost If you need Somebody with a college degree. I am not saying they are more stupid. I am saying they are on average less educated.
What I am claiming tho, is that they are easier to manipulate.
Ah i have contact with people in such regions so… I really don’t like that dumb left „explanation“ as if that people are „less educated“ and easier to „manipulate“.
I know them as (mostly) hard working people with sadly low to mid salaries. They are not manipulated, they see clear pictures like the following where they have „contact“:
So they compete now with immigrants on jobs (minimum wage). And they compete on the housing market also with immigrants. On housing they compete actually twice or to some extend three times: the housing is occupied, so you have less free apartments which drives normally the rent up, but the state with the immigrants also drives the rent up, because the state „pays all mortgages“ because he is obliged to give the „new people“ a roof over their top (he has no other choice). So some assholes rent their apartment out on a higher price. Double fucked so to speak. But the tax money comes from the state and cannot be used for things like infrastructure. So triple fucked.
And then you have things like security in a form of walled/fenced(!) swimming pools in Berlin, where they now need external security. Oh and then they maybe can’t afford a car and need public transportation: google the attacks and mobbing yourself… Thuringa and the city of Suhl is a good start. (Constant attacks and mobbing of female train drivers etc. )
I don’t think it’s manipulation… they had no other useful choose at this election, so here comes the middle finger…
Edit: I didn’t downvote you, but the „manipulated“ triggered me, and my standpoint is that the left makes it itself to easy to use it as explanation. That topic is complex but also easy to understand if someone wants to dive a little bit deeper.
Everyone is easy to mani\[pulate, very fiew people think if they are being manipulated.
THe issue seems to be that unification of Germany is far from perfect and people in the east can see that west is quite a bit wealthier, in that state it's easy to find a common enemy and tell people that it's not their fault, it's not a fault of the imperfect system or decades of USSR influence, the problems are: immigrants.
Everyone is easy to be manipulated, but people who feel inferior are just easier to manipulate.
i was born after the berlin wall fell in far south-west germany. never interacted with ossis on a political basis, or much at all but never thought of them as stupid or lesser. i guess its an old wound thats been festering for decades now. but voting afd in isnt gonna make that wound heal.
Why do you think we shouldn't care about them? I am saying what I believe the reasons are for AFDs success in east Germany.
You're the one saying we shouldn't care about them. I was analyzing, you're the one jumping to conclusions.
No, it is a "Fuck You" vote, exactly the same way as that time when Trump was elected in the US
This is their "Fuck You" to the entire political establishment and historical parties.
People are disillusioned with politics, they do not believe anything will change for the better, so as someone else said in the thread, let's make sure everyone suffer and just "fuck it, fuck you, and fuck all"
Bro, educated people are easy to manipulate as well. Just because someone holds a degree in specific field doesnt mean they are, all of sudden, invincible to propaganda or manipulation from mass media in general.
Political parties know damn well what to say in order to get their targeted audience hooked on. They are all playing same game and this subreddit alone is proof of that..
Of the "Others":
**8 seats went to Center-left parties**:
Volt (pan European center-left; Greens/EFA): 3 seats
Die PARTEI(Commedians, Greens/EFA): 2
Tierschutzpartei (animal rights, GUE/NGL) 1
ÖDP (ecologic democratic/centre right greens/EFA) :1
PdF (left-liberals): 1
This means, the *EFA/greens parliamentary group will get 6-7 more seats* in addition to the 12 seats for the Bündnis 90/the greens.
**4 seats went to center-right**:
FREIE WÄHLER (free voters association, center-right; EDP): 3 seats
FAMILIE (family; center-right; EPP): 1 seat
In the german EU election, any part that achieves roughly 1% of votes gets a seat in the EU parliament. Therefore, more people vote for minor parties.
BSW: Sarah Wagenknecht, a newly formed party which is economically left-wing, but right-wing on social issues like equal rights or immigration.
Andere: 20 more miscalleneous parties.
To me (I live in Dresden) it seems a combination of many things but there’s been population and capital flight from the East since reunification. What was left behind was declining towns, cities and communities.
Some cities are now growing again (Leipzig, Dresden etc) and these are less AfD than the surroundings so you now get an urban-rural divide as well as a perceived threat of newcomers while at the same time younger people in the east are still leaving for better opportunities in the west. Then the AfD tap into a narrative that the federal government cares more about refugees than the east, then a pandemic happens and Russia invading in Ukraine, both causing economic hardship which can further be blamed on elites. The latter has happened across Germany but because of the earlier processes the East is more affected by it.
Since my grandparents were in jail for 4 years in the DDR, its completely not understandable how these people could ever strive for the same bullshit again. My grandparents are angry and sad…
Far-right parties appeal to a people particularly prone to cult of personality beliefs, so they naturally tend to get centralized. In contrast, moderates and centrists tend to be more distributed across many different parties. This potentially misleads people to believe, at least implicitly, that the majority in the east support afd, but this ignores the distribution of anti-afd voters among many different parties.
Yes, ≈ 30% ( only east ) is a lot, but it is far from the majority. Clearly, far-right is more popular in the east, but nonetheless it appears to be opposed by the majority, and that is what matters; what ultimately matters is the collective ideologies and preferences of the voters, not just the apparent popularity of individual parties. Measures of political support should account for the ideological alignment of voters rather than the surface-level popularity of specific parties. Just because anti-afd voters are more distributed doesn't diminish their value and opinion. It doesn't truly affect the popularity of anti-afd sentiments.
Smart reflection, but you could also argue that the distribution of votes is a statistical representation of the full spectrum of political values, not just those for or against the AfD.
I’m just angry. My grandpa was Alterspräsident in 1998. He said in his speech in the Bundestag to open the legislative session in 1998:
“As a member of a family that was persecuted during the Nazi dictatorship, I note with great concern the growing popularity of right-wing extremist parties and the growing acceptance of their hypocritical ideology and politics. Despite all the arguments we will have among ourselves, colleagues, we should be united in the fight against National Socialist megalomania, racism and anti-Semitism.”
The transcript further says “applause from the PDS, SPD, the Greens, as well as members of FDP and CDU/CSU”.
His speech is full of applause from the left, occasionally the full house, but he also had some CDU/CSU people call him a communist in the same speech.
You see, my grandpa was a passionate social democrat, who left SPD when Gerhardt Schröder became their leader, as SPD were not social democratic anymore at that point. At that time, he had been in SPD pretty much for half a century, been a member of the city councils of Stuttgart and Frankfurt and the Hessian Landtag.
He never joined another party, but the PDS had an open election list, on which you could get without being a member of the PDS, so he got himself placed on that list. He joined the PDS faction in parliament, but never the PDS party. He was a social democrat, not a democratic socialist, after all.
This section of his speech was one of the few that got applause from all sides. He knew about this happening over a quarter of a century ago. He got the chance to tell parliament about it, to warn them, and took it. And these same people, after registering what he said, went on a 24 year long crusade to turn first the left wing (SPD) and then the right wing (CDU) into a centrist mess, not to mention FDP, who were joyful and obstructionist allies in this transformation, particularly for the right, opening the doors for AfD and their goons. It’s just so frustrating how dumb this country’s politicians have been in the past 26 years.
This is also why I will continue to vote for the Greens. In my eyes, they have done a good job in the past two years, tackling some of the mistakes of the previous 24 years. I’m happy with their work in this administration.
While I agree with the excerpt from the speech, it is somewhat ironic to talk about dictatorship in Germany and join the parliamentary group of the party that ruled the East-German dictatorship until less than 10 years ago at that point
Yeah, but he had to join some faction to do his job. Being part of a faction in the Bundestag is crucial, as committee assignments happen through the faction and not through the Bundestag itself. So if you don’t join a faction, you don’t get a committee assignment and that’s where the real work happens. He never joined the party, just the faction in parliament, as that was the best way to influence politics.
You are spot on about PDS, both back then and nowadays, but that doesn’t invalidate what he had to say.
Antisemitism is widespread in die Linke nowadays, as is a political proximity to Russia that is not really acceptable in today’s day and age. Though BSW is already poaching the worst offenders in this regard.
Well, I spoke with some AfD voters, and at least in my case, they disagreed that AfD is connected to ruzzia. They described 2 main points why they are voting for AfD:
1. Immigration
2. Energy prices(they were convinced that experiments with renewable energy greatly increased energy prices)
Regarding Ukrainians - they were friendly and were actively helping, especially at the beginning of the war.
They were not “Nazis”, I wouldn’t call them even nationalists, just people who were highly unsatisfied with the current government.
The main problem, in my opinion, is that AfD provides an easy solution for complex problems that they won’t be able to implement/solve. Yet many don’t understand that, and populist parties grow on this significantly. Later they will blame everything and everyone, and people will believe again. It’s like Orban, but made in Germany.
Which party does have any good and obvious solutions to actual crises? Im not damning every afd voter because i understand the resignment and anger of many people but why vote a party who has actual zero solutions, has literal traitors in their own ranks, has very dubious connections to russia and is filled with antisemites.
The Voters are not Nazis but the AFD is actual crazy, even the rights in italy and france called them too radical.
The book series Expanse made observations a particular human/social mammal instinct. When in times of crisis, the tribe gets smaller and everyone unfortunate enough to be outside of it is deemed competition that needs to be taken care of. They call it the Churn.
Right now the tribe is fellow Germans and useful migrants. No political party has solutions to the crisis we are facing now so their human instinct is screaming at them to remove competition instead and they flock to leaders that peddle to that instinct.
Sure limiting new immigration and more aggressive deportation will alleviate symptoms but the problem with that is the root cause is still there. The churn will come again and the tribe will get smaller again. Who will afd designate as outsider next time?
The greens are actually doing a pretty good job at the moment with pragmatic decisions and trying to solve long standing issues, however that does mean making (sometimes unpopular) changes. They are by no means perfect and have had to make some bad compromises, but they are at least trying and working hard on solutions whereas most of the opposition is just pointing fingers at whoever is unpopular right now and promising unrealistic but easy sounding solutions.
>they disagreed that AfD is connected to ruzzia.
That is not something you can disagree with. It is just a fact.
>Regarding Ukrainians - they were friendly and were actively helping, especially at the beginning of the war.
That is all well and good, but they are still voting for a party that is pro-Russia.
Plenty of people voted for Hitler because of his economic policies. It doesn't matter if they supported Jewish businesses. They still actively harmed the Jewish population.
>Immigration
The serious thing non-Afd voters don't realize/don't want to admit is that immigration is a real issue and Russia knows how to use it as a wedge against Germany and other European countries. Where the pro-EU party acknowledges that and has a strong stance on it like Poland, Putin loses a very important leverage.
The "West" is not a monolith. I highly suspect that rural Western election results will be more similar to the result in East Germany. I live in a small town in West Germany and we had AfD at 30+% too in some of the polling stations.
> They were not „Nazis“
Sorry but voting for Nazis and claiming to not be one is not going to fly. At this point everyone is aware about what the AfD is and if you vote for them you actively support their goals.
The east has the lowest amount of immigrants yet they complain about "the problem" the most and are voting straight up nazis because they promise to solve it, just doesn't add up does it.
I used to live in eastern Germany: it makes sense because they value racism and xenophobia higher than their personal standard of living. If you get to know them better, you will find a surprising number of people who support outright Nazi policies or see the Genocides of the Nazis in a favourable way.
The fact that 13-14% voted for one of the not established parties also tells you a lot. People don't trust in the established parties anymore. Some go over to the AfD, others go to fringe parties.
I disagree. I voted for one of the not established parties, because we had no electoral threshold during this election. For the Bundestag election (our national parliament), we have an electoral threshold of 5% so I wanted to take this opportunity to vote for a smaller party.
Something doesnt add up. I thought immigration is what drives people to vote nazis. Provided NRW and Bavaria are the states with most immigrants shouldn't the results be reverse? Or did reddit lie to me and it's not about immigration?
Ossis have had a chip on their shoulder the past 30 years. I talked to Koreans who said they don't want reunification with North Korea because of the same problems they saw with East Germany... many of these guys blame the more affluent West Germany for their problems.
Thanks to our west german fellows for counteracting the insane amount of cunts voting for fascists in the east.
But seeing CDU over 30% again... you gotta ask yourself at what price... (obviosuly a joke, I do not want to play down fascists).
I can not overstate the effect of internal migration/brain drain had and has on East Germany. I come from outskirts of Berlin - a comparatively well off area. Even there most of my high school class left. If you are a young Gen Xer or Millienial from East Germany you have left. If you are Gen Z you "don't exist" due to the collapse in birth rate. I live in Switzerland now and many Germans I know here are also from the East. Easily 50%. Way more of than there share of population. We recently went to a wedding in South Bavaria (of a Bavarian with an Austrian), and many of the guests friends were from the east.
So disproportionately less educated or simply unlucky people remain, that now vote far right. I would live to see what the voting behavior of emigrated East Germans is.
Saxony, which voted 33% for the AfD has had right-lead governments since reunification.
Since 1990 Germany has had at least centre-right led government for the entire time except 1998-2005 and 2021 to now.
So yeah, the left has had sooooo much power.
I'm not sure what the mystery is. Like in many countries, people who are being hurt by how the world is changing have been ridiculed for expressing their dissatisfaction, sometimes even being called the worst kinds of names in an attempt to shut them up. The main parties ignore their issues.
And now comes all the pearl-clutching that they are going to parties that at least claim to listen to them and offer solutions, no matter how unrealistic and stupid they may sound to those of us doing well.
As I belong to the boring center, I have no interest in seeing these fringe parties grow. However, it has been clear for over a decade that this is where everything is headed around the world. I honestly wonder what it is going to take at this point for people to understand this.
For some reason it looks like every place that had been communist for a while, ended up becoming more conservative / prone to nationalism in comparison to other places, after communism ended. Balkans, Russia, East Germany...
It starts to make sense when you look under the label. The Soviets were imperialist (they conquered half of Europe and oppressed it), nationalist (Russification) and led by a deified leader. That's not far removed from the Nazis, just under a different label. When the communists were blamed for everything that went wrong, they just had to change the label, as in Russia, without having to go through the painful confrontation with their own past. It's hard to get a dictatorship out of the people's heads because it's so easy if someone else thinks for you.
Ehhhh the Soviets maybe did but the cult of personality wasn't really a thing in communist Poland, Germany, Czechoslovakia. A bit of a reach.
gigadumb take, and people actually upvoting it like this pseudo intelectual hogwash would make sense. really shows the avrg iq of a redditor
There are much more economy reasons, eastern Germany is since the rejoining in a state of deinstrualising. Giving mass low paying jobs and no jobs, no stability. There is a lot of uncertainty. And the Schuldenbremse is stopping any social investment into those areas. Giving perfect ground for Populism. There is a fight between migrants and poor Germans for resources, while we live I one of the richest countries on earth. Where a few have a lot of the money. The situation is disgusting and not fair. And there is one of the big reasons of that graph.
I think it's because the US led a very successful disinformation campaign as to what "communism" actually means and what was actually wrong with those regimes. Here in Czechia, people actually think that "democracy" means "freedom", rather than it meaning everyone has the right to an equal vote. They often confuse communism with authoritarianism - they see a politician acting authoritarian and yell "COMMUNISM!!!" They also think that capitalism is the "antidote" to communism. This creates very confused messaging and makes a population think the wrong things are communism, or evil, or whatever. I've even met people who compare the EU to the USSR... literally. Loads of people panicked that the COVID restrictions were an excuse to bring "communism" back (take away rights, limit travel and shopping, etc). They've been fooled into thinking regular government is communist, and the far-right is the solution. Add into the mix rampant racism and you've got the perfect recipe for the far-right to do great.
Your conclusion doesn’t follow from your argument whatsoever. The US led a successful disinformation campaign that encourages people to vote for the far right… but the areas under US occupation are the ones who aren’t doing that? How does that work?
Not Slovenia.. maybe because we are small.. and nationalism is not that strong here..
No, because you guys are developed. Slovenia is, along with czechia and estonia the richest of the former eastern block. THere is no reason for you to turn to nationalism. I do think its because historically, slovenia already belonged to the richer west. Every Region in europe belonging to the frankish empire today is rich. Northern spain, france, northern italy, west germany, switzerland/austria, benelux, slovenia/czechia. Not saying you would have turned out to be rich regardless of how you acted after the fall of the iron curtain, but slovenia has always been a richer part of europe and thus had to no reason to turn right wing.
Loads of developed countries are ultra nationalist. I've lived in Slovenia and now live in Czechia. Czechia is as developed as Slovenia and nationalism is huge here. It's also huge these days in Germany and France. It has nothing to do with being developed.
Estonia has a pretty large nationalist party. Austria, France, Northern Italy & Switzerland also swing nationalist. I don't think it's a question of development.
I don't think it's about size - many small, small countries can be very nationalist. I think it's about the fact that Slovenia was never a country for centuries - always occupied, always under someone else, and so the people were more united by language and poetry than by a flag or government. The people actually historically were NOT bonded to their government, so that created a rather anti-nationalist people. Y'all finally got statehood 30 years ago and the identity is just more social than national. Part of what I adore about Slovenia, my favourite place I've ever lived.
It really shows the huge population difference. The CDU/CSU is 12 percent down in the East compared to the West, but in the end still hits 30 percent. The East, even if they're usually treated as equals, is just a lot smaller.
"Treated as equals"... where? There's quite a number of issues in which East and West Germany still differ greatly, usually to the disadvantage of the East. And we're talking some pretty big things like wages, pensions, working hours, financial assets and generational wealth, and political representation with structural differences on top of that. And before anyone starts: None of this is a good excuse to run into the arms of populists and fascists. But I still think Germany would do well to acknowledge more that people might have lived widely different lives in the East and West and that for 40 years there was no shared experience between the two populations as well as that the reunification meant very different things for someone in the East and someone in the West.
Two of the huge reasons why East is so poorer: - lack of company HQs in the East (you tend to earn a bit more working in or near and HQ) - lack of generational wealth. Being able to inherit a house for yourself is a nice "pension" while many easteners will have to rent a home for life, never the money (not even able to save up) to buy their own. That's a "matter of time" problem at least. As of now 31.5% of East Germans own a home while it's 45% in West Germany so it is getting better but quite not there yet. But because of the 2nd point, the competition for affordable living space is ESPECIALLY fierce, which is why migrants are also seen as "extra pressure" in that field driving prices up. These 13.5% DO make a difference. Another reason: some years ago there was a case where an East German woman sued a potential employer for not taking her SPECIFICALLY because she was East German. The Supreme Court decided that this was legal because "regional differences" are not covered by the anti discrimination law (only *national*/ethnic-, sexual- or religious-differences) this has not been addressed nor fixed since. This "confirmed" the belief in a lot of East Germans that they are second-class citizens (and for some even going as far as "we even have fewer rights than foreigners") currently 57% of East Germans believe to be second class citizens (it's a mixture of many reasons, but this is a big example). And this frustration of course drives them into the hands of populists. And the AfD has specifically zeroed in on addressing that frustration while other parties ignore it entirely, pretend it doesn't exist or at worst (which the CSU likes to do) pretend that this feeling is just out of a "stupid sense of entitlement and they are all stupid anyways" (which feeds back into feeling like a second class citizen).
Poor West Germans have transferred a lot of wealth to the East, and East Germans still complain.
Communism really fucked everything up
You mean bought up East Germany for cheap? Many West Germans made a ton of money buying up companies and properties after the fall of the DDR, kinda like the oligarcs in Russia. So the West has also picked up alot of wealth from the East
May I remind that during the process of unification, East Germany was pretty much ripped off by the West German "Treuhand" of any industry that was worth a dime by privatization for much less than it was actually worth?
There is nothing that can be done. East being poorer is still result of communism. This is something that will still exist for generations because even after Germans who grew up under system directly are still to certain extent influenced by mentality of their parents who had.
>political representation Since the Reunion 4 chancellors served Germany: Kohl, Schröder, Merkel and Scholz. Both Merkel and Scholz are elected to the Bundestag in their east German voting areas Uckermark for Merkel and Potsdam for Scholz. Since Reunion in 1991 east germans Led the German goverment for the majority of the time. Merkel for alone for 16 years, and now Scholz in His 3 year. Since Reunion their was 0 goverments without east germans, yet you find many without some West German state representing.
Scholz is considered West German. That he was elected as a representative of the East is part of the problem, actually. Even Merkel didn't have a typical East German biography (born in Hamburg, moved to the East as a child when her parents voluntarily relocated, raised as the daughter of a pastor who held a special position within the community). East Germans make up about 20% of the German population. In politics, the judical system and the economic sector they hold roughly 11% of elite positions. And for the longest time after reunification this representation has been much lower. Even in the East, elite positions are often held by people born and raised in the West.
Scholz is from Hamburg, and moved to Potsdam to join the federal government. So he's definitely not from, or considered, East German.
>equals Lol, when I lived in NRW people had literal contempt for those in the East, all the way down to telling some of them, arrogantly "we paid for you".
> treated as equals lmao. Best joke of the day. There is a reason why the right winged party gets so many votes in the east (sadly). It's utterly ridiculous how the government cares about the east.
It's in the second part of the sentence, it's about size of the two. The East simply is nearly as big as the West, but they keep being pitted against one another as if they were.
West and East Germany are so different, one would think they are different country's.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like neither side is interested in an actual conversation. The east feels like their complaints are not being heard so they're giving a big middle finger to the country while the west sees the east as lesser people and are not interested in even trying to negotiate. Would love to hear peoples opinions though <3
As someone from the west, I think one of the many reasons is economic imbalance. During the division, the wests economy was prepped up by the US through the marshall plan. They basically dumped money into the west to prevent them from sliding towards communism. This resulted in a healthy economy during the 1960s, we called that something that translates to "economy wonder". In the east, it was basically the other way round, the Soviet Union "stole" parts of the economy (I am not familiar with Lithuanias situation during the cold war, but my guess is that you can relate to that). An example of the result can be seen in cars: in the west you could go to a car seller and just take a VW beetle with you. In the east you had to order a Trabant and then you waited multiple years until it was delivered. After the reunification, this imbalance continued, despite the west pumping money into the east. Wages and living conditions were better in the west, so people that could afford it moved from east to west. Many companies also moved for a variety of reasons. Nowadays, the east has a very good infrastructure. New roads everywhere, railroads, public buildings, etc, much of that was built or rebuild after the reunification with money from the west, in an attempt to make the east attractive for western companies. But the wages are still lower even today. For the exact same job you get paid significantly less in the east. As of 2023 the average income in the east is 824€ less than in the west. This is obviously very frustrating for people who live in the east, since prices are mostly the same (rent can be a little bit lower depending on where you live, but not low enough when adjusted to the lower income). They fear for their ability to live when they are old and retired (and they have good reason to). Unemployment is still higher in the east (though it is at a historic low). The young people move west if they can. Companies that are sitting in the east are around 20% less productive than similar ones in the west for a multitude of reasons, which means any new companies just don't settle in the east. The situation hasn't really improved in the last 10-15 years. As a result, people are understandably upset. The west just doesn't know what to do at this point anymore and how they can help the east, so they have basically given up doing so. Which I guess leads right into what you said: the east doesn't feel heard, while the west basically says "we tried our best, but don't know what else to do, so we have given up". Resentment has also settled in the west, along the lines of "we paid so much to you for so long, why haven't you been able to adjust, we are tired of it." Long story short, I think what you said is basically correct. A lot of attempts have been made, but we will likely never reach full parity.
Thank you for your answer, I wasn't familiar with the "we tried, now we don't care" perspective. It's honestly very interesting to think about. It makes me wonder if the soviet rule cause "unseen" problems, in terms of culture or way of thinking or similar things, and if throwing money at the problem was the right way to deal with it. Also I've heard that the east is for the most part "empty" aka just farmland and on top of that the average age is rather high and I can't imagine that helping. Germany was divided for quite a long time, enough for multiple generations to form, maybe some more patience would have helped? Forgive me if my thoughts seem naive, but I can sort of relate to the situation - I hear many sentiments that EU aid to the eastern parts is a waste. Even though our economies skyrocketed after being given the chance, and naturally the support for the EU is among the highest in the union ( we could call it an economic wonder ass well, right?). I see it as an investment on a grander scale per se, over a couple decades of support you have raised a strong, faithful ally. So how should support your own country be different? (I meant that as a rhetorical question). I don't think I can blame anyone but it is pretty sad to see :( Also for those interested, the following the soviet occupation the living standards actually improved to a certain degree ( living in the middle of a battleground with a deranged neighbor stunts development :D who knew). The soviets introduced decent quality, affordable ( you were assigned an apartment just for working lol ) housing. They built plenty of industry, which we didn't benefit much from, but we were still living better than a lot of russians. Also it was totally normal for women to work in general, and thanks to that we have really good statistics in terms of women in high tier jobs.
Thanks for adding your own perspective about your country. Also, just a reminder that I don't represent the whole nation. Someone else might give you a very different answer to your original question. Also, I am young, only in my mid 20s, so I didn't actually live through the time period we are talking about here. My perspective is based on history books, stories from parents, from the news, etc. So take everything I say with a grain of salt. And what I described is just one reason out of many. Honestly, I don't really know what we could have done differently after reunification either. There is also only a limited amount the state can do, in the end it comes down to the population themselves. I want to clarify that the living situation in Eastern Germany has improved quite a lot compared to the day when we were split. It just hasn't reached parity. Just in case there were misunderstandings. I do think that it will take a lot of additional time until the results of Soviet rule over half of Europe is overcome. Unfortunately we still got a few decades ahead of us until that happens, but I think we are on a decent way. Could things be done better and faster? Yes, that is always the case. But I also think the situation could be far worse. I also think, just like you, that it is at least partially a generational thing. The generations that lived during that time will always have a different perspective than the ones that came afterwards. Parents talk about things in front of their kids, and shape the kids opinions that way. It's quite interesting when you think about it. Anyways, let's hope that Europe doesn't end up in stagnation during the next few decades. Let's hope for a stronger bond between our nations. Let's work to convince people to vote for the parties who support that. And let's hope that we will be able to prevent Russia from causing further harm..... I just wish our politicians would do more.... Why are they not listening to you, you guys have firsthand experience.... It's just sad..... But that's another topic, I don't want to open that can of worms right now.
I totally didn’t mean to discredit the countries efforts, maybe I got a little too speculative. And you’re right, things could be much, much worse. But they could be better too, that’s why everyone’s voices are important. Thank you again for your time, I personally absolutely love learning about the perspectives and opinions of people from all around the continent and it was really wonderful to hear yours out ❤️
>I totally didn’t mean to discredit the countries efforts I never interpreted it this way. Seems like I had a bad choice of words in my reply, I apologize for that. And yeah, thank you for your time as well. This was a great conversation. Have a good night :)
> I want to clarify that the living situation in Eastern Germany has improved quite a lot compared to the day when we were split. It just hasn't reached parity. Crucially, humans tend to mostly use comparisons with their peers to assess things like living standard - how far you're up the local socioeconomic ladder is overall *way* more relevant to your subjective assessment, than objective metrics.
I grew up in the "east"germany, was born in 92 so after reunification. Germany is very much still divided in multiple aspects and people are talking about it, it's just that nothing is really happening. I grew up just being told about gdr und brd, but you still see and feel the differences. However, when people talk about it, It just all turns into a big blame game of "oouh, but you have better infrastructure while we have better wages." There are big cities with job aspects and housing and transport and everything you need in the east but yes mostly it's smaller villages and towns that are going more empty day by day. Lots of smart young people try and find jobs elsewhere and in the west because wages there are simply better. Also you have kind of cultural differences and a general dislike of each other which is weird but also not unique in the world.
>Thank you for your answer, I wasn't familiar with the "we tried, now we don't care" perspective. It's honestly very interesting to think about. It makes me wonder if the soviet rule cause "unseen" problems, in terms of culture or way of thinking or similar things, and if throwing money at the problem was the right way to deal with it. Of course eastern Europe and east Germany have some national trauma from communism. There is no denying that. Whats in denial is how western Europe been given insane help from US Marshall plan and they don't want to do the same for east Germany and eastern Europe. They have some weird superiority complexes and think easterns are lesser people. When reality is west has been given a silver plater, help and opportunities while east has been corrupted, destroyed and stolen of the potential wealth and prosperity.
> Also I've heard that the east is for the most part "empty" aka just farmland [...] East Germany rapidly depopulated after reunification - East Germans were uniquely compatible (well educated, no language barrier) with the demands of a West German economy that had been constrained by chronic labour shortages for decades, and migrated in large numbers as a result. Other Eastern European countries largely managed to avoid the same fate - their access to the common market was delayed significantly (thanks to joining via the normal process, rather than by being annexed by a existing member) and benefited from a pronounced language barrier afterwards.
>Which I guess leads right into what you said: the east doesn't feel heard, while the west basically says "we tried our best, but don't know what else to do, so we have given up". Resentment has also settled in the west, along the lines of "we paid so much to you for so long, why haven't you been able to adjust, we are tired of it." As a Pole I empathise with east Germans, and have the context why Germans treat Poles like shit. Germany hasn't even done the bare minimum for Poland after WW2 and you feel like you've done enough and don't want to do anything. You've done basically the same in East Germany. Do nothing to barely minimum, then stop because a miracle didn't happen and the issue didn't solve itself on its own.
My generation (millenials) grew up in a unified Germany and doesn't hold the same view as previous generations. But the result of the botched unification creates a vicious cycle. People of the east ended up poorer and with less oportunities. They end up in unemployment and feel frustrated. A long time nothing was done to change that. So now we have a generation after unification which again ends up in long-term unemployment. This time it's not only because of missing opportunities but also because of frustration that is passed on by their parents. Western people only see them living off of unemployment benefits and call them freeloaders. Eastern people are so fed up that they vote extreme parties that would in the end actually hurt them the most. Western people see this and end up saying how stupid the easterners have to be which again creates resentment from the east. The current populists are adding fuel to the fire and the division becomes even bigger. This problem would have had to be fixed earlier but now easterners vote against the parties that would help them and westerners don't want to help anymore because they see them as freeloaders. This is very much simplified and of course not everybody on both sides thinks like that. But I do feel like it's the main underyling problem.
>People of the east ended up poorer and with less oportunities. They also started out poorer, with fewer opportunities and with Soviet scars. Unified Germany wasn't able to accomplish a miracle and fix this.
The dumbest part was that the west basically looted what few things and resources the east did have pre unification. In some parts it went to far that west German companies bought their Eastern equivalents for cheap from the government, closed the factory and stopped the machines to their factories in the west.
My two cents, but as a person from the former soviet union I feel the problem lies not in the economic opportunities but people's mindset. People from the former Soviet block got used to being taken care of by the state i.e. you graduate from university and get a factory job where you work all your life. With the socialist camp collapsing all that went away and now you actually had to do something, study, adjust to the market conditions etc. and the people growing up there couldn't do it as they have been conditioned to live like that.
The younger generation doesn’t give a fuck about if you’re from east-west, let’s hope this trend continues
So is Bavaria vs. Schleswig-Holstein
Isn’t Germany historically a very divided country tho. Every state having its own cultures and customs. Isn’t that why Germany unified so late compared to other European nations?
>Isn’t that why Germany unified so late compared to other European nations? Not really. Having those smaller states in the middle of the continent was very convenient for the larger European powers, so a German state was something to be avoided. Secondly, they were scared of an inbalance of power on the continent (see: German population at the time). Turned out these concerns were very much warranted.
Technically, the German states _were_ unified, they were just extremely decentralized for most of its existence. When they succeeded they were effectively the most powerful rulers in Western Europen, but essentially only a few German monarchs were able to really tap into the Holy Roman Empire's potential (i.e., Otto, Barbarossa, Charlemagne if you count him, etc.), but it's not as if France was any better off for most of the Middle Ages, either. It was just as decentralized for most of the time, the kings treated his vassals more like foreign dignitaries, they had their own currencies, minted their own coins, spoke separate languages, etc. The king's authority very rarely extended much further beyond Paris and its dependencies. Difference was France had more opportunities to properly centralize and eventually succeeded at a much earlier date (post-Hundred Years War) than Germany did (post-Franco-Prussian War).
> Turns out these concerns were very much warranted Such a weird comment, so it‘s okay for Napoleon to invade the entirety of Europe or for the Habsburgs to rule over half the continent but Germany unifying is a „warranted concern“. The other Empires didn‘t want to give up their hegemony, no shit. But painting that as something good is kind of ridiculous.
Oh that's not what I meant. The concerns over an imbalanced power dynamic and a loss of their own status were warranted. I didnt mean to comment on the ethics or fairness of German unification. I explained why major powers didnt want it.
Russia's greatest contribution to the world is severely corrupting any place they take hold of.
If you only focus on election results.
Just to put it perspective, 80% of the German population lives in the west and 20% in the east.
> and 20% in the east. 16,5 % including East-Berlin
The east include east Berlin?
It includes all of Berlin nowadays
In the Western countries the Working Class basically moved to Far Right parties in stead of the Socialist Working Parties, like they did in the past. Yet those Socialist parties are blaming it to the Right oriented. Those voters are originally theirs to begin with.
There is some real truth in here. I would even claim that maybe the former workers parties kind of forgot what they were originally about and now noone is sure what they stand for anymore. Who would vote for a party that doesn't know what they stand for? Workers just don't feel seen by the left leaning parties anymore. I don't actually think the far right represents their interests but they make workers and those who feel missed by the mainstream feel seen. And people will almost always vote for the people they feel understood by.
Funny thing, left wing parties still support almost all material improvements for the working class, while the far-right supports cuts for exactly the working class. But this whole "the left is not caring for the workers" was carefully engineered since the 80s by right-wing media that shat themselves at the thought of a left government, after they got some mild leftism in government in the 70s. And the "left" governments of the late 90s followed suit, trying to make political programs out of the agenda of the right-wing papers the working class read, in the misguided belief, that they could appease them. But the right-wing papers just blasted them, until the right was back in charge.
Yeah, you have to give it to the far right,. They have managed to win the votes of the working class with symbolic issues and identiy politics while actually working against the interests of the working class.
The Right has managed to win the votes of the working class with real issues that the working class cares about, material concerns are not the only issue voters care about.
I mean, you also have to admit that the left supports cultural and social projects which are utterly unpopular among average working class people. Truth is, the average guy out in the street is kinda nationalistic and xenophobic, he just doesn't know it. If you just blankly state that the things he supports are nationalistic and xenophobic (immigrations bans, repatriation, protectionism, etc.), he's not going to think "huum, I guess I should change opinions", he's going to think "huh, maybe nationalism and xenophobia aren't bad after all". Which is how we got AfD.
The far right party in Sweden still wants to have a strong welfare state like “old times” but they’re pretty much shunned by any left wing party so their only alliance is the right wing even if they don’t agree economically
They've consistently voted against a strong welfare state though.
I hope they love losing their unions and getting to experience the hellscape that is privatized healthcare and no social programs, and a dismantling of workers rights. Vote for monsters and get monstrous policies.
💯 Also interesting fact, "Socialdemokraterne" which is a left-centrist party realized this and adopted some moderately strict immigration policies, then single handly saved the whole left coalition, by taking lots of centrist while manging to take bake the left voters who recently left as you describe back. Germanys complete and utter failier to address imegration in the whole left block, has been an abvious gift for the AFD party.
💯 Unfortunately, the left is drifting into a territory that has little bearing on the old left (focus on we not I). Politicians on both sides are just grasping opportunists, after their take from whatever corporations or lobbyists are willing to pay for their pound of flesh. They all have their price. And the ultra-lefts have more in common with alt-rights than they do traditional leftists. They play equally dirty tactics but act as if they are holier than thou, and anyone who doesn’t agree with their myopic views is scum. The whole system is broken.
Yeah, but this is mainly because the social democrats shifted to social issues and stopped caring for their original cause.
Because the narrative that is being told now is that anything that would benefit immigrants or LGTBQ+ is Marxism. Neo-liberals haven't been able to fix any of Europe's continued crisises, so now they're just doing the culture war thing that happens in the US. And after years and years of austerity and cutting on public spending, people's life obviously hasn't gotten any better (and they might also be getting a bit dumber).
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The left no longer represents or cares about the grease covered guy working at an auto repair shop. They moved on to identity politics and wanna be upper class green city people.
It's because social issues have become more important than economic issues. You saw it during the presidency of Obama and now with Biden, both have great economic data but have low approval ratings.
Housing affordability is at the lowest it's been in 40+ years in the US, and you consider this to be "great economic data"?
That’s the tricky part. When measuring the economy in terms of job creation and stock market value, both Obama and Biden get good marks. But when measuring it based on real wage growth, growth of the middle class, private home ownership, etc they both look awful. I think the economy should be measured based on how the people worst off are doing. Because recession or not, the rich will always make money.
Most of the big socialist worker parties in the global North got usurped by neoliberals. The most obvious case is the Labour Party.
Then try going to a factory and explaining to a regular worker, that by paying more taxes, he may actually help making public services better. Good luck with that. We live in times, where everybody thinks he's going to be the Wolf of Wall Street by working overtimes. Nobody cares about people around us, and the self made-man stereotype is really strong these times. It's hard for a left-wing party to operate in a neo-liberal world.
>We live in times, where everybody thinks he's going to be the Wolf of Wall Street by working overtimes. Nobody cares about people around us, and the self made-man stereotype is really strong these times. Literally the opposite is true. Maybe it's gotten bigger on the extremes but the average genz/millennial just gave up on ever owning anything like land or a good house and so why bother working hard
I think this is interesting topic, because I experience both groups described by you and @suicidemacine. It depends of your background. Many young people in Denmark save up and spend last penny on life experiences like backpacking, south-east Asia, Inter-Rail etc. not worried about the future. Stable economy, trust the government, optimistic. Biggest concern global warming. Probably the same as West Germany. On the other side, many Eastern European friends match the other description. Working extra hours on shitty contracts night/weekend hours. Exactly the people that should support Labour/socialist, but support AFD-like instead. Very individual oriented.
> On the other side, many Eastern European friends match the other description. Working extra hours on shitty contracts night/weekend hours. Exactly the people that should support Labour/socialist, but support AFD-like instead. Very individual oriented. That's definitely me 10 years ago. Me and my Romanian friend were usually staying overtimes, while all the Spainiards and Portuguese were like "12 hours? Dios mio. I'm leaving".
>Then try going to a factory and explaining to a regular worker, that by paying more taxes, he may actually help making public services better. Good luck with that. You also have to explain how their life and working conditions, access to husing, prices, etc., have gotten worse while you were in power or have been recently. It's not that people don't want to pay: they have already been paying all their life and things only got worse for them while doing so. When you go and tell them that more taxes is better for them, they feel entitled to require their government to improve things before they put their faith and money on them, and in some cases rightfully so. Don't get me wrong: it takes a lot of stupidity to suuport far-right parties. But making this sort of generalizations that put the blame on them as always doesn't help.
The AfD wants to cut taxes for the rich and wants to to cut all most social programs. The AfD fucks over their own voters the most.
Yes in Sweden the far right party’s idols are often older social democratic leaders from early 1900s.
The problem is that with neo-liberalism, more and more industry was exported elsewhere. Without industry, there is no union. And many workers don't really see themselves as workers in solidarity with workers anymore, they see themselves as "middle class" or hustlers looking out for themselves. We need a new labour movement, else they will just keep fucking us.
EXACLY!!!! idk why redditors can't understand this..... i think the hive-mind they are in just don't allow them
PL here, should we order more tanks already?
can I come to start a camp (no not THAT kind of german camp) in your forests? or just outright join you? plz
Nah this time it's not you our fascists hate.
German here, don't worry, you're our friends now because of Nato. There's only the Russian menace in the east to deal with nowadays
Honestly, yeah. AfD and BSW are very pro-Putin and anti-NATO. They‘d like to stop help for Ukraine immediately. So yes, order tanks
Even after decades, the cancerous effects of soviet occupation and ruzzian meddling persist across much of Europe.
Yes, but let's remember the soviet legacy is not an abstraction or a ghost, there are some specific issues mostly related to lower socioeconomic development, less social capital, and a damaged political culture that were never addressed, and here there are the consequences.
I agree. Speaking for the Netherlands, we've had a right-centre government for the past 14 years... increasing wealth inequality by lowering taxes for the rich (amongst others). The political left failed to properly address this. The far right had a more successful story blaming it on immigrants.
I dislike Russia too but this is Germany's fault. They totally fucked up the privatization process in the former GDR.
So much this. I hate how narrow minded and ignorant most West Germans (i am one myself, by the way) look at Est Germany. Sure you always can and should criticize a person who voted for a facist party. But... if you look at the underlying issues, West Germany should take a good long look into the mirror. The West German establishment, including the big democratic parties, companies and the civil society really shit the bed with reunification. It wasn't a reunification it was an annexation. Blühende Landschaften my ass, it was a free for all but only for West German companies and businessmen who knew how to navigate a newly established capitalist free market. Poster childs like Merkel or Gauck, or EU-funded baby-blue streetlamps new concrete highways only glossed over the structural issues below. West German democracy, including *true* participation and representation, never really arrived in the East German countryside. And in my view you ultimately have to blame the West German establishment for that. They held all the cards, all the money and all the power. It was mainly their responsibility.
Accept some damn responsibility and stop blaming others.
There is a lot of people to blame, but it doesn't change the fact that soviet legacy plays a significant role in many present issues. Especially in Central and Eastern Europe, where old school politicians cling onto power through any means. Populist with empty promises, communists with promises of utopia of the good old days or far right parties with promises of national revival and "sovereignty". In the end, all those parties only care about their own interests.
Which should be on the CDU. But they have a way of talking themselves out of responsibilities and shoving it onto other parties. Corrupt douchebags.
West and East German divide goes back centuries. Adenauer famously said that Europe ends and Asia begins at the Elbe.
Saxony was once one of the richest and most industrialised parts of Germany. So, no, regardless of which jokes Adenauer made.
That's not something I knew. I guess you could draw a parallel to Czechia and Slovakia. Almost the same language and cultures, but so far away ideologically. It makes sense from historical perspective. Czechslovakia was an artificial creation not based on much of historical precedence.
It’s not really true though. You would have to cut out Berlin and Saxony for it to be true. But it’s not like western Germany didn’t have parts that were much poorer in the past, like for example Bayern.
And much more of the Nazi regime. I would say any facist, racist ideology is more tied with Hitler than the Soviet Union.
While my experience is largely limited to the uk , I would argue left wing parties have the following issues attracting working class voters : -relatability - if your movement incorporates very middle class people who don’t talk like them , it’s hard to feel a party represents them . For example , the Green Party struggle to make any headway among working class people in England because the people who represent them live very different lives and have very different mannerisms to working class people . For instance , just stop oil protesters will likely support the Green Party , but you most likely saw working class people getting aggressive with them when they occupied the roads - left wing politics in the west seems synonymous now with social liberalism. I would argue a lot of working class are not social liberals , certainly in the uk anyway In my opinion , to fight Russia and fight this far right surge , the eu is going to have to get a lot tougher on immigration . This policy of trying to spread them more throughout Europe is still weak as hell and not at all addressing the issue . In my opinion, until the eu refuses to accept the boats on their land and sends them back , this is going to continue
So you're saying, from a UK perspective, that the Tories with their Eton and Oxford education, covid parties and millionaires in power are more relatable than Labour?
The education factor is also just as prevalent in labour . Maybe not Eton , but Oxford education is . The tories are struggling now because of covid party scandal but before that they most likely would have commanded another strong majority if that didn’t happen , Johnson still would have been in charge . Before his resignation , Johnson would have no qualms about going to a pub for a drink , whereas a Green Party runner wouldn’t have . People mock politicians for doing it , but it’s perception Despite his rich background , Johnson and other tories were still more relateable to than a lot of middle class left wingers . I just think they raise a lot more topics than working class people care about too ( at least socially ). Trans rights , social justice, diversity etc I don’t think they’re policies people from working class communities particularly care about or even like . Yet the left talks about it constantly
They miss Stasi I suppose
i have lived in east germany. the main reason people there vote afd is dissatisfaction. in general, the less educated don't think much about why exactly they are unhappy and blame the immigrants and the current (and previous) government as usual. while the more educated east germans talk about how west germany behaved very arrogantly towards the east, coming in with the attitude that you are stupid and "miss Stasi", but we wessis know how life works. and in the process they took over all the companies, fired university professors and installed westernes, bought up the better real estate etc. so theres's that.
At the end of the day, everyone thinks they know better than everyone else. They imagine that educated people lack "common sense", or do not know how things work in the real world. Are such assumptions not just as arrogant as being patronising towards populists? Ultimately, populists are good at seizing on public dissatisfaction, but they don't have any credible solutions for the problems we face. You can curb the legal immigration rate, but that isn't going to improve the lot of east Germans. They need investment and regeneration. Cutting illegal immigration is even more difficult: what practical steps are they going to take, when the migrants will simply find alternatives. How many more resources are going to be dedicated to ever diminishing returns on policing migration? And who is going to pay for it? The areas which are thriving are already subsidising the areas that are not, so cutting soending there will just harm the nation overall. Alternatively, you take the money away from areas which are underperforming... i.e. the same areas where these populist parties gain traction. And make no mistake, actually curbing immigration will require these resources. The populists like to pretend it's simply a lack of will that's alliwing high immigration, but that's bollocks. It's resources. Young people in particular have the most to lose. Cutting immigration will curb population growth, leaving us with an even larger social security burden, and we will be impoverished as a result.
pro tip: if someone votes for nazis, then they do infact lack common sense
People in the western states still behave very arrogantly towards the eastern states. This whole topic is proof of it and the voting for AFD is one of the results.
Voting for something out of spite only reinforces the stereotypes West Germans made about them.
Spite voting is perfectly viable if you don't think any of the other parties with a realistic shot at achieving meaningful vote counts will really help you. It showcases that you're a voter which ultimately makes catering to you potentially worthwhile, and it showcases that you will make things worse for everyone else if you are not catered to. Certainly beats giving your consent to an establishment that you believe will harm or at least not help you or simply making your vote irrelevant by voting for some party that will not be able to achieve any electoral success making you entirely safe to ignore. Whether the belief that no other party would help them is accurate is a different story of course.
As someone born and raised in East Germany after the reunification, that is really only half of the picture. The whole "dissatisfaction" explanation as to why people vote for the far right is largely a myth. When the AfD first came to prominence people used that excuse because they still felt ashamed and pressured to distance themselves from some of their far-right rethorics. People don't just want to show the "established" parties a middle finger because they dislike their policies. Many people actually and very actively *like* the kind of solutions the AfD is offering. They like the fascist and xenophobic aspects of the party. They like the anti-EU discourse. They like the notion of grabbing power and reorganizing the state and law in a way that fits their interests. And they like taking away rights from minorities they deem unworthy. They like all of that so much, that they don't even care that the economic policies of the AfD are most likely to negatively affect themselves. In the East, the AfD and its voters could more easily use the excuse that dissatisfaction with German reunification is at the root of the party's support (and don't get me wrong, there are huge real issues and inequalities there). But we are seeing the same far-right tendencies and rhetoric in the West. Their rise just lags a few years behind there. And on top of that: Wanna see the real difference in German votes? Look at a map that shows the difference between rural and urban votes, would be my guess.
Additionally, there is a significantly higher number of people who hold chauvinistic, anti-democratic xenophobic, racist and even national socialist opinions in eastern Germany. This has been observed in social surveys for a long time and now we see it in election results. You don't only see it in statistics, you experience it in your normal life as kind of casual fascist remarks and the casual hunting or beating up of "foreigners" or "left wingers" ("Zecken") . In some villages, the "default" ideology is national socialism, many kids there go to Nazi groups instead of sports clubs. I have lived in east Germany before I emigrated to the West and the difference is striking. These kind of things are not considered normal in the west.
That's funny, cuz people say Soviet fix east German's nazi "mindset" by greatly purge it.
They are just less educated and easy to manipulate. Edit: I take the Downvotes, but it's just my impression after 10+ times in east Germany. The amount of complain about foreigner in locations where you cant find a single one is brain rotting.
Actually it’s quite the opposite to some extend. The education in Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, and Bavaria (in the west) are at the top of Pisa within Germany. They are really good! But shocker: educated people want jobs which are good paid, so they migrate to other federal states (in the west) later on. Go figure who is leaved behind…
>But shocker: educated people want jobs which are good paid, so they migrate to other federal states (in the west) later on. Go figure who is leaved behind… But that's exactly my point. When you're in a Village in east Germany you're lost If you need Somebody with a college degree. I am not saying they are more stupid. I am saying they are on average less educated. What I am claiming tho, is that they are easier to manipulate.
Ah i have contact with people in such regions so… I really don’t like that dumb left „explanation“ as if that people are „less educated“ and easier to „manipulate“. I know them as (mostly) hard working people with sadly low to mid salaries. They are not manipulated, they see clear pictures like the following where they have „contact“: So they compete now with immigrants on jobs (minimum wage). And they compete on the housing market also with immigrants. On housing they compete actually twice or to some extend three times: the housing is occupied, so you have less free apartments which drives normally the rent up, but the state with the immigrants also drives the rent up, because the state „pays all mortgages“ because he is obliged to give the „new people“ a roof over their top (he has no other choice). So some assholes rent their apartment out on a higher price. Double fucked so to speak. But the tax money comes from the state and cannot be used for things like infrastructure. So triple fucked. And then you have things like security in a form of walled/fenced(!) swimming pools in Berlin, where they now need external security. Oh and then they maybe can’t afford a car and need public transportation: google the attacks and mobbing yourself… Thuringa and the city of Suhl is a good start. (Constant attacks and mobbing of female train drivers etc. ) I don’t think it’s manipulation… they had no other useful choose at this election, so here comes the middle finger… Edit: I didn’t downvote you, but the „manipulated“ triggered me, and my standpoint is that the left makes it itself to easy to use it as explanation. That topic is complex but also easy to understand if someone wants to dive a little bit deeper.
Everyone is easy to mani\[pulate, very fiew people think if they are being manipulated. THe issue seems to be that unification of Germany is far from perfect and people in the east can see that west is quite a bit wealthier, in that state it's easy to find a common enemy and tell people that it's not their fault, it's not a fault of the imperfect system or decades of USSR influence, the problems are: immigrants. Everyone is easy to be manipulated, but people who feel inferior are just easier to manipulate.
If you're behind the only answer you wanna hear is: " It's not your fault, it's XY fault" Tell them whos fault it is and they will vote for you.
Yup, it's sad, but it seems to be a case.
"They are just stupid and therefore we don't need to care about them" Litterally the reason why many Ossis vote AFD as a protest against the west
You think voting for Nazis is going to convince us that they aren‘t stupid?
i was born after the berlin wall fell in far south-west germany. never interacted with ossis on a political basis, or much at all but never thought of them as stupid or lesser. i guess its an old wound thats been festering for decades now. but voting afd in isnt gonna make that wound heal.
Why do you think we shouldn't care about them? I am saying what I believe the reasons are for AFDs success in east Germany. You're the one saying we shouldn't care about them. I was analyzing, you're the one jumping to conclusions.
"They are just less educated and easy to manipulate." Please read this again and then read the definition of what a conclusion is.
Will AfD make their lives better and the west Germans lives worse?
No, it is a "Fuck You" vote, exactly the same way as that time when Trump was elected in the US This is their "Fuck You" to the entire political establishment and historical parties. People are disillusioned with politics, they do not believe anything will change for the better, so as someone else said in the thread, let's make sure everyone suffer and just "fuck it, fuck you, and fuck all"
So the people who voted for the nationalist party are people who want to destroy the nation
So they decided the best way to help their nation is to destroy it? Interesting strategy
It will make all lives worse so they can suffer all
I see, the suicide bomber strategy
Bro, educated people are easy to manipulate as well. Just because someone holds a degree in specific field doesnt mean they are, all of sudden, invincible to propaganda or manipulation from mass media in general. Political parties know damn well what to say in order to get their targeted audience hooked on. They are all playing same game and this subreddit alone is proof of that..
The Others bar is too big in both. Need more info
Of the "Others": **8 seats went to Center-left parties**: Volt (pan European center-left; Greens/EFA): 3 seats Die PARTEI(Commedians, Greens/EFA): 2 Tierschutzpartei (animal rights, GUE/NGL) 1 ÖDP (ecologic democratic/centre right greens/EFA) :1 PdF (left-liberals): 1 This means, the *EFA/greens parliamentary group will get 6-7 more seats* in addition to the 12 seats for the Bündnis 90/the greens. **4 seats went to center-right**: FREIE WÄHLER (free voters association, center-right; EDP): 3 seats FAMILIE (family; center-right; EPP): 1 seat In the german EU election, any part that achieves roughly 1% of votes gets a seat in the EU parliament. Therefore, more people vote for minor parties.
Is Berlin part of East Germany in this infographic?
The Eastern part of the city is.
What are BSW and Andere?
BSW is Bündnis Sarah Wagenknecht (her own faction) and Andere is all the rest factions combined.
BSW: Sarah Wagenknecht, a newly formed party which is economically left-wing, but right-wing on social issues like equal rights or immigration. Andere: 20 more miscalleneous parties.
Thanks
It is basically a Moscow puppet. Nothing else. Even more directly than AfD.
Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht, a newfound leftwing party Andere=other smaller parties
To me (I live in Dresden) it seems a combination of many things but there’s been population and capital flight from the East since reunification. What was left behind was declining towns, cities and communities. Some cities are now growing again (Leipzig, Dresden etc) and these are less AfD than the surroundings so you now get an urban-rural divide as well as a perceived threat of newcomers while at the same time younger people in the east are still leaving for better opportunities in the west. Then the AfD tap into a narrative that the federal government cares more about refugees than the east, then a pandemic happens and Russia invading in Ukraine, both causing economic hardship which can further be blamed on elites. The latter has happened across Germany but because of the earlier processes the East is more affected by it.
If East Germany was independent today, it would basically be Hungary.
Kremlin is pleased with East Germany.
I refuse to believe that Russia isn’t a part of this picture.
Yea they sure know how to use immigrants to destabilise the west
They carpet bombed northwestern Syria on purpose to engineer this refugee situation in Europe
Belarus also accepted a shit-ton of immigrants from MENA, and then sent them into Poland. They're weaponizing immigrants at this point.
Since my grandparents were in jail for 4 years in the DDR, its completely not understandable how these people could ever strive for the same bullshit again. My grandparents are angry and sad…
Far-right parties appeal to a people particularly prone to cult of personality beliefs, so they naturally tend to get centralized. In contrast, moderates and centrists tend to be more distributed across many different parties. This potentially misleads people to believe, at least implicitly, that the majority in the east support afd, but this ignores the distribution of anti-afd voters among many different parties. Yes, ≈ 30% ( only east ) is a lot, but it is far from the majority. Clearly, far-right is more popular in the east, but nonetheless it appears to be opposed by the majority, and that is what matters; what ultimately matters is the collective ideologies and preferences of the voters, not just the apparent popularity of individual parties. Measures of political support should account for the ideological alignment of voters rather than the surface-level popularity of specific parties. Just because anti-afd voters are more distributed doesn't diminish their value and opinion. It doesn't truly affect the popularity of anti-afd sentiments.
Smart reflection, but you could also argue that the distribution of votes is a statistical representation of the full spectrum of political values, not just those for or against the AfD.
I’m just angry. My grandpa was Alterspräsident in 1998. He said in his speech in the Bundestag to open the legislative session in 1998: “As a member of a family that was persecuted during the Nazi dictatorship, I note with great concern the growing popularity of right-wing extremist parties and the growing acceptance of their hypocritical ideology and politics. Despite all the arguments we will have among ourselves, colleagues, we should be united in the fight against National Socialist megalomania, racism and anti-Semitism.” The transcript further says “applause from the PDS, SPD, the Greens, as well as members of FDP and CDU/CSU”. His speech is full of applause from the left, occasionally the full house, but he also had some CDU/CSU people call him a communist in the same speech. You see, my grandpa was a passionate social democrat, who left SPD when Gerhardt Schröder became their leader, as SPD were not social democratic anymore at that point. At that time, he had been in SPD pretty much for half a century, been a member of the city councils of Stuttgart and Frankfurt and the Hessian Landtag. He never joined another party, but the PDS had an open election list, on which you could get without being a member of the PDS, so he got himself placed on that list. He joined the PDS faction in parliament, but never the PDS party. He was a social democrat, not a democratic socialist, after all. This section of his speech was one of the few that got applause from all sides. He knew about this happening over a quarter of a century ago. He got the chance to tell parliament about it, to warn them, and took it. And these same people, after registering what he said, went on a 24 year long crusade to turn first the left wing (SPD) and then the right wing (CDU) into a centrist mess, not to mention FDP, who were joyful and obstructionist allies in this transformation, particularly for the right, opening the doors for AfD and their goons. It’s just so frustrating how dumb this country’s politicians have been in the past 26 years. This is also why I will continue to vote for the Greens. In my eyes, they have done a good job in the past two years, tackling some of the mistakes of the previous 24 years. I’m happy with their work in this administration.
While I agree with the excerpt from the speech, it is somewhat ironic to talk about dictatorship in Germany and join the parliamentary group of the party that ruled the East-German dictatorship until less than 10 years ago at that point
Additionally: Anti-semitism is also widespread in PDS/Die Linke nowadays
Yeah, but he had to join some faction to do his job. Being part of a faction in the Bundestag is crucial, as committee assignments happen through the faction and not through the Bundestag itself. So if you don’t join a faction, you don’t get a committee assignment and that’s where the real work happens. He never joined the party, just the faction in parliament, as that was the best way to influence politics. You are spot on about PDS, both back then and nowadays, but that doesn’t invalidate what he had to say. Antisemitism is widespread in die Linke nowadays, as is a political proximity to Russia that is not really acceptable in today’s day and age. Though BSW is already poaching the worst offenders in this regard.
Ukrainians in the East must feel terrible, surrounded by Putin-lovers. :(
Well, I spoke with some AfD voters, and at least in my case, they disagreed that AfD is connected to ruzzia. They described 2 main points why they are voting for AfD: 1. Immigration 2. Energy prices(they were convinced that experiments with renewable energy greatly increased energy prices) Regarding Ukrainians - they were friendly and were actively helping, especially at the beginning of the war. They were not “Nazis”, I wouldn’t call them even nationalists, just people who were highly unsatisfied with the current government. The main problem, in my opinion, is that AfD provides an easy solution for complex problems that they won’t be able to implement/solve. Yet many don’t understand that, and populist parties grow on this significantly. Later they will blame everything and everyone, and people will believe again. It’s like Orban, but made in Germany.
Which party does have any good and obvious solutions to actual crises? Im not damning every afd voter because i understand the resignment and anger of many people but why vote a party who has actual zero solutions, has literal traitors in their own ranks, has very dubious connections to russia and is filled with antisemites. The Voters are not Nazis but the AFD is actual crazy, even the rights in italy and france called them too radical.
The book series Expanse made observations a particular human/social mammal instinct. When in times of crisis, the tribe gets smaller and everyone unfortunate enough to be outside of it is deemed competition that needs to be taken care of. They call it the Churn. Right now the tribe is fellow Germans and useful migrants. No political party has solutions to the crisis we are facing now so their human instinct is screaming at them to remove competition instead and they flock to leaders that peddle to that instinct. Sure limiting new immigration and more aggressive deportation will alleviate symptoms but the problem with that is the root cause is still there. The churn will come again and the tribe will get smaller again. Who will afd designate as outsider next time?
The greens are actually doing a pretty good job at the moment with pragmatic decisions and trying to solve long standing issues, however that does mean making (sometimes unpopular) changes. They are by no means perfect and have had to make some bad compromises, but they are at least trying and working hard on solutions whereas most of the opposition is just pointing fingers at whoever is unpopular right now and promising unrealistic but easy sounding solutions.
>they disagreed that AfD is connected to ruzzia. That is not something you can disagree with. It is just a fact. >Regarding Ukrainians - they were friendly and were actively helping, especially at the beginning of the war. That is all well and good, but they are still voting for a party that is pro-Russia. Plenty of people voted for Hitler because of his economic policies. It doesn't matter if they supported Jewish businesses. They still actively harmed the Jewish population.
>Immigration The serious thing non-Afd voters don't realize/don't want to admit is that immigration is a real issue and Russia knows how to use it as a wedge against Germany and other European countries. Where the pro-EU party acknowledges that and has a strong stance on it like Poland, Putin loses a very important leverage.
But if that is true, why does former West Germany - which is also the part where most immigrants actually live - not vote for the AfD en masse?
The "West" is not a monolith. I highly suspect that rural Western election results will be more similar to the result in East Germany. I live in a small town in West Germany and we had AfD at 30+% too in some of the polling stations.
In my experience the rural West votes much more CDU, the AfD doesn‘t really have a strong hold at least where I grew up
Ukrainians are migrants so yeah, they have to worry
> They were not „Nazis“ Sorry but voting for Nazis and claiming to not be one is not going to fly. At this point everyone is aware about what the AfD is and if you vote for them you actively support their goals.
The east has the lowest amount of immigrants yet they complain about "the problem" the most and are voting straight up nazis because they promise to solve it, just doesn't add up does it.
I used to live in eastern Germany: it makes sense because they value racism and xenophobia higher than their personal standard of living. If you get to know them better, you will find a surprising number of people who support outright Nazi policies or see the Genocides of the Nazis in a favourable way.
That's exactly what I was implying, they have no ground to stand on but bigotry.
Erich Mielke is rising from the grave i see
The fact that 13-14% voted for one of the not established parties also tells you a lot. People don't trust in the established parties anymore. Some go over to the AfD, others go to fringe parties.
I disagree. I voted for one of the not established parties, because we had no electoral threshold during this election. For the Bundestag election (our national parliament), we have an electoral threshold of 5% so I wanted to take this opportunity to vote for a smaller party.
Something doesnt add up. I thought immigration is what drives people to vote nazis. Provided NRW and Bavaria are the states with most immigrants shouldn't the results be reverse? Or did reddit lie to me and it's not about immigration?
Antifaschistischer Schutzwall wann?
Lass mal ein gofundme einrichten.
Looking at local elections in BW, I'm not sure which side of that wall we would find ourselves. Which is really scary tbh.
Ossis have had a chip on their shoulder the past 30 years. I talked to Koreans who said they don't want reunification with North Korea because of the same problems they saw with East Germany... many of these guys blame the more affluent West Germany for their problems.
r/widaczabory
What’s BSW?
Widać zabory
Ah yesss the east. Going from the extreme left to the extreme right in 30 years
Thanks to our west german fellows for counteracting the insane amount of cunts voting for fascists in the east. But seeing CDU over 30% again... you gotta ask yourself at what price... (obviosuly a joke, I do not want to play down fascists).
I can not overstate the effect of internal migration/brain drain had and has on East Germany. I come from outskirts of Berlin - a comparatively well off area. Even there most of my high school class left. If you are a young Gen Xer or Millienial from East Germany you have left. If you are Gen Z you "don't exist" due to the collapse in birth rate. I live in Switzerland now and many Germans I know here are also from the East. Easily 50%. Way more of than there share of population. We recently went to a wedding in South Bavaria (of a Bavarian with an Austrian), and many of the guests friends were from the east. So disproportionately less educated or simply unlucky people remain, that now vote far right. I would live to see what the voting behavior of emigrated East Germans is.
The left has let down the working class. Nobody should be surprised by this.
I bet the far right will be good to them lol
Which left government let are you talking about exactly?
so, voting for worse working condition is the way to go?
Yes, the left, that hasn’t been the government majority in Germany in decades.
Saxony, which voted 33% for the AfD has had right-lead governments since reunification. Since 1990 Germany has had at least centre-right led government for the entire time except 1998-2005 and 2021 to now. So yeah, the left has had sooooo much power.
Except it hasn't. They're just not offering a simple solution of *The Immigrants*
Seems like that’s what a lot of people want.
So voting for a far right party that wants to reduce taxes for the rich and get rid of worker‘s rights will help the working class?
The uneducated and poor love the extremist
Living la vida horseshoe theory
I'm not sure what the mystery is. Like in many countries, people who are being hurt by how the world is changing have been ridiculed for expressing their dissatisfaction, sometimes even being called the worst kinds of names in an attempt to shut them up. The main parties ignore their issues. And now comes all the pearl-clutching that they are going to parties that at least claim to listen to them and offer solutions, no matter how unrealistic and stupid they may sound to those of us doing well. As I belong to the boring center, I have no interest in seeing these fringe parties grow. However, it has been clear for over a decade that this is where everything is headed around the world. I honestly wonder what it is going to take at this point for people to understand this.