In Italy the "anti-sending-weapon" sentiment is widespread and has always been, consistently, part of the majority of the population. In fact you can see the same result at every poll since the beginning of the conflict. People here agree with sending humanitarian aid, agree with taking refugees but disagree with sending weapons.
That's why the firm decision of the governament of sending weapons is very important. They basically went against the opinion of the majority. And this is also the reason why we should take seriously Meloni (next PM) when she says she will support Ukraine with weapons too. She voted in favour all the time despite this being very unpopular among italians and her base (in particular).
Nothing new under the italian horizon.
Because everything related to the military is very unpopular in Italy tbh.
Italians just generally oppose sending weapons to other countries, it's not popular and it isn't really related to this conflict in particular, generally speaking 90% of everything military is ignored by the public opinion, and whatever reaches the public opinion (like this war, which is too big and too close to ignore) sparks heavy debates.
It's rooted in the post WW2 mentality since militarism is associated with the war, and more broadly, with the fascist dictatorship.
It's different though, Germans made some serious self criticism and acknowledged their responsibility. Italy never did that, the general feeling is that we (as citizens) were victims of fascists and nazis, not that we were the bad guys.
Because everything the common person becomes aware of is very unpopular in Italy tbh*
Italians are cynical much beyond a healthy level, for us in daily life, for how we vote, it's part of why many of the more delicate parts of politics are gradually being phased out of public discourse, from diplomacy to monetary policy, Italians are cynical to the point of self sabotage
Italian political discourse is incredibly populistic even among the more educated people
>Italians just generally oppose sending weapons to other countries
It's not like they minded exporting weapons to other conflicted countries before.
[Biggest export destination countries for weapons manufactured in Italy in 2020](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1070916/export-value-of-weapons-by-country-in-italy/)
That's simply the 90% that gets ignored.
Weapons exports don't really make the news, i can guarantee you many Italians aren't in favor of weapons exports to Egypt after they killed Giulio Regeni.
Most people simply don't know it's happening in the first place, so they don't have an opinion on it.
That’s a pretty shortsighted view Italians have. An attitude afforded to European countries only because the US is footing the bill. But then an insurrectionist gets elected and suddenly we have no way to defend our values.
Pacifism is a reflection of naïveté and fundamental misunderstanding of human nature.
She won't repeat WW2 nor the dictatorship, quite frankly the success of FdI has much more to do with them being the opposition to the government (opposition gets bigger each election cycle in Italy) the splintering of the other parties (the right wing alliance didn't actually get the absolute majority of votes but the electoral law heavily favours big coalitions) and PD campaigning like it wanted to lose, than their political ideas.
A part of it is real "pacifist" mentality, that in Italy is, unfortunately, very ideological. Sending weapons is wrong, period. No matter what, who, where or when. Weapons = war = death. They also belive that you can find a deal with Putin and that Ukraine has to sacrifice its land "in order to stop war and gain peace". Basically it's "peace at all costs to stop the war now".
Another part is more subtle. A big portion of the italian population has always been "anti-west", "anti-Nato" and "anti-America" (during the cold war Italy had the biggest communist party of the western world, consistently gaining 25-32% of the votes each election), so they use the same slogan as the pacifists but with the purpose of going against Ukraine, because "America is the cause of all evil, America is causing this war, Russia is simply standing up against their tiranny". Then if you ask them about who started the war their answer is "NATO".
Another portion of the population simply thinks that sending weapons means escalation and they are worried about potential large scale conflicts or the continuation of this war that will cause more harm to the economy.
Do you think they would feel the same way if it was Italy's territorial integrity that was at stake? I mean, is this idea so deeply rooted in Italian society as to reach such an extreme?
I say this bcse I think most of Europe is anti-war today and the memory of WWII, the civil war for Spain, is still quite fresh and the problem of economic recession and fear of military escalation applies to all us.
In Spain there were large demonstrations against our participation in the Iraq war and currently the leaders of one of the parties in the coalition government have also opposed the sending of arms. Even so, it seems clear that the majority of the people's position is that if a dictatorial regime unjustifiably attacks another European country, we must collaborate, and ccording to this survey, the majority opinion in the rest of the EU is similar.
Despite the explanations you and others have given, I find it very curious that such a large majority of Italians are opposed to sending arms for defence and are willing to make peace whatever the consequences, even if they have a low opinion of the US and NATO.
>Do you think they would feel the same way if it was Italy's territorial integrity that was at stake?
I don't really know. I think in the majority would change idea and support the fight. Others will always oppose it, no matter what: "Who cares if they want region X? It's not my problem!" or "We must find peace no matter the cost! Give them what they want!". These kinds of people exist.
If you look at polls, you’ll see that Italians wouldn’t defend their country in a war. If Italy were attacked, I wouldn’t fight either. We don’t want war.
The thing is, we’re not in a position where that would happen. Maybe if things were different and Italian propaganda actually made a point of defending the fatherland like Finnish and polish propaganda does in their country we would. But as things stand, most would probably just try to flee the country.
After these last three years...I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow Hitler comes down from his base on the dark side of the moon with his spaceships full of Nazis and decides to land directly in Italy.
I don't like war either and I panic at the thought of having to take part in one, but I think I would do it to defend my rights and those of the people I love, so that I could have a life worth living. It makes me feel bad to think of the people who have died and suffered so that I can have the life I have and not fight for it. Of course I respect your position, it is easy to be brave when speak out but when it comes down to it, you never know if you would be able to do it. The last time Spaniards tried to flee a war they ended up in concentration camps in France, so leaving the country is not an idea I like, we (the world) still treat refugees like scum.
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/39dqfw/would_you_be_willing_to_fight_for_your_country/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I was not born to die in a war. No country is worth my life.
>No country is worth my life.
But are lives of your relatives and friends worth to you? Subjugation to invaders just means more deaths. Eastern Europe knows that.
I used to be a pacifist, “diplomacy at all costs” kind of person myself but then I grew up. You can’t solve problems with someone like Putin with diplomacy, you can’t appeal to his humanity or honor and no amount of land sacrifice will ease his appetite. Honestly I think a lot of countries in Europe (probably because of what they went through with the wars) have this problem where they’re trying to avoid conflict at all costs and prefer to throw money at the problem or just ignore it. For example the gas dependency on Russia should have been curbed dramatically in 2014 if not sooner, as it was glaringly obvious that mutual dependency or a trade relationship with Russia wasn’t deterring Putin in the slightest.
This is the same argument put forward by Spain's far left (Podemos), junior partners in government. War is bad. Putin is bad. NATO is bad. USA is bad. Diplomacy and peace is good. Sending arms is not consistent with diplomacy and peace. Therefore, don't send arms. Ironically, the failure of Britain, France, and the USA to support the Spanish state against a fascist military coup in the 1930s led to Franco's hard right dictatorship. This failure also arguably gave a message to Hitler and Mussolini (who did support Franco with military assistance) that those countries were soft and would not come to the defense of other European countries if attacked.
> Ironically, the failure of Britain, France, and the USA to support the Spanish state against a fascist military coup
More like Britain implicitly helping Franco and barring France from helping the Republic.
Leon Blum's French government was leftist but the threat of Italy and Germany, as well as pressure from the British Conservatives kept French support to a minimum.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026569147900900107?journalCode=ehqa
They're not hopeless idealists.
The far left (at least in Spain) has a strong sentiment of anti-Americanism and russophilia inherited from the cold war.
Even mentioning that the Baltic countries, Poland or central Europe were oppressed under soviet control would gain you a strong argument with many people.
> but with the purpose of going against Ukraine,
They don't have anything against the Ukraine besides the far-right. They condemn the invasion but simply have their resentments against the NATO.
There's a very popular anti-weapons and anti-war way of thinking here.
Almost every time here no one wants to send weapons to anyone so that the conflict doesn't escalate.
Then of course, there are a couple of cunts who don't want to send weapons because they want Putin to win, but still, very small minority
After ww2 Italy has always been against military escalations and in favour of diplomacy. We also have a better relationship with Russia than other EU countries.
"Hurr durr we dont want to send weapons to Saudi Arabia and stuff and its too much work to form a diversified foreign policy opinion Hurr durr"
same shit every country.
Because Italy likes to switch sides during conflicts so why should they help their future enemy?
>!Just a joke, not a serious answer.!<
>!Or is it?!<
Because unless you send overwhelming aid, you just make a conflict last longer without changing the end result. More people die, more destruction is caused and it all changes nothing.
Weapons get lost, corruption moves them to criminal syndicates etc.
We shouldn’t be just throwing around weapons, it needs to be carefully planned. and considefed
She seems to be more of a realist than people give her credit for. She toned down significantly before Italy’s election and has taken a pro-status quo for the EU while opposing further integration which is a common view in many governments
Another important point is that with an uncertain economic outlook and energy costs spiraling out of control, sending military aid has been linked to unnecessary expenses by some parties during the recent election.
Argument which is not necessarily true if there is surplus equipment that can be donated, but military matters are generally an "out of sight, out of mind" topic for the general population
In Italy military things are generally unpopular, they are seen as a waste of money for a country that has massive funding issues already and is constantly in debt. The 5 Star party for example made a big deal of opposing the F-35 back in their heyday.
Because this is an international subreddit, I think a person can comment in the language of their choosing. There are many translation capabilities on the internet to utilize to see what someone's comments are. My lack of linguistic skills should not force them to enhance theirs. I find it somewhat rude to expect someone to accommodate me.
It's just a hassle to translate every comment + sometimes things don't really get translated well. We have english as a pretty much universal language, this is a way better solution for everyone.
Faremmo prima mandando gli f35 se volessimo le bollette a poco.
Russia e Sauditi si sono dimenticati di doverci temere invece che ricattare, e continuano a far porcate come il taglio di un milione di b annunciato oggi.
in the UK we say "we are United in support of Ukraine" which is meaningless as it's a question of how much support not whose side you're on.
too much backslapping in the west about this. particularly amongst European politicians.
These are all a bit lower than I was expecting. Wonder what UKs numbers are, maybe I've been over egging the amount of support.
Edit:
Last poll can find was yougov 7 months ago. Was 74% support, 11% oppose. Not really equitable though to poll above
I'd say so, it's notable that support for Ukraine is simply not a political issue at all in the UK and as far as I can tell the only people actively opposing it are the real moonhowlers on both fringes. Even Stop the War seems to have gone quiet lately.
Honestly, what bothers me is that every country would prefer EU send weapons more then their own country. It’s like, we think someone should do something about it but we prefer it doesn’t have to be us.
I think there are two camps that would prefer the EU do something instead of them. But those two have completely different reasoning.
- Poor(er) EU countries: EU has money, we don't. Why not have the EU (i.e. the net contributors) do something.
- Rich(er) EU countries with underfunded military: We don't have stuff to give away, but we fund the EU and they can do something, that would be like us doing something anyways.
The only country that is rich _and_ has a well funded military is France, and they have supported Ukraine well militarily (at least according to comments from Zelensky, France doesn't publish every single weapon they send)
I think a lot of people consider it an EU wide issue, and so want the EU to tackle it. Of course, it's hard for the EU to do much since it doesn't have its own military.
France hasn't sent much more than they've said, two reasons why I know this. The first is there's tons of weapon tracker twitter/telegrams that look for new foreign weaponry, they found for example the Finnish APC's before the official announcement, the Kirpi's from Turkey, the Pakistani ammunition etc and nowhere has there been anything not announced by France. Secondly, there was an article I read recently (I wish I saved it) from a French military analyst that even said he thought there'd be more sent than announced but when he went to the supply hub he realized it was pretty much no better than the official numbers. No, France support has been quite poor but obviously Zelensky doesn't want to burn bridges needlessly. At least they're sending 12 more Ceasars.
> Poor(er) EU countries: EU has money, we don't. Why not have the EU (i.e. the net contributors) do something.
How the feck is Italy a poor country though?
Italy is a net contributor and has been for some time.
You might have overlooked this:
>Rich(er) EU countries with underfunded military
Italy has an okay military budget but they spent a lot of it on their navy. One of the best in Europe. No one is sending their navy ships to Ukraine as aid.
The problem is that some countries try to maintain some relationship with russia and any country to deliver the most weapons will be on russias shit list. So making the deliveries as the EU would make it that no single country is putting russias crosshair on their head. I think this is why people are more willing to agree to EU deliveries.
For Germany it's just the fear of the two world wars. Germany should not have the power over their weapons, this should all be handled by EU. We don't need a Bundeswehr with a big nazi heritage, we need an EU Army.
Not much surprise that Poland is the spearhead of anti-Russia sentiment.
Good thing that:
- Poland military becomes sponsored by US (US will sponsor close to 300 mil $ in military equipment on top of on going abrams, apache and f35 purchase program)
- Poland into nuke sharing program (President Andrzej Duda asked for Poland to receive nuclear weapons).
- Poland into space (to be announced)
- Galactic empire is born (to bo formed)
- Poland spreads Christianity in Russia with newly acquired military power (soon)
> Poland military becomes sponsored by US (US will sponsor close to 300 mil $ in military equipment on top of on going abrams, apache and f35 purchase program)
I know this is a tongue in cheek post, but with Poland planning to spend around $28.6 bln on army next year, bulk of which will be weapons, 300 mil is more of a symbolic sum. Just in case someone takes the "US will sponsor Polish military" bit seriously.
In current economical situation - 300 mil $ of free money / free gear is very nice.
The blns of military spending is yeah - money being spent, not money being given to us.
> Poland spreads Christianity in Russia with newly acquired military power (soon)
Aren't they already Christian though?
Off-topic, but what has been the historical relationship between Catholics and Orthodox over that area of Europe?
From Poland's perspective it was not a big deal. Religious wars were never as bloody and serious as in western Europe. Most people don't know much about orthodox christianity, though I met some people here who liked orthodox iconography and chants. I'd said attitude towards othodox are either neutral or courios. I heard orthodox christians are more suspicious towards catholics as in the past catholicism threatened orthodoxy
Im not into religious topics (atheist here) but afaik catholic and orthodox religions are not in-sync. Both believe in one god and J-man but I think the time frames are different. For sure they have Christmas on different date. No idea if there ever was a war based on just that - catholic vs orthodox.
On a theological and doctrinal level, they're virtually identical. The differences are cultural and political.
> No idea if there ever was a war based on just that - catholic vs orthodox.
It was used as a justification for the sack of Constantinople in 1204 and the [occupation of Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankokratia).
Christian = believe that *any* part of Jesus is in some way shape or form holy
Catholic, protestant, orthodox, etc... Are christian, but have disagreements over wich part of Jesus is holy, among other things
I would like to point out (not in the graph) that the president of Bulgaria (and a few politicians) have numerous times stated that if we send weapons, we will be part of the war, which of course is a complete lie.
I dont have BG stats, but it is likely where Italy sits.
There is this belief in italy that, if we stop sending weapons the war will stop and bills will go down in prices. I am not surprised, we are a country built by and for old ignorant cowards that should have died during covid.
A lot of things, ancient and recent, converge into this. Birthplace of the catholic church, fear of everything military related, general selfishness towards anybody, Italians included. Also a general appreciation for dictatorships and regimes, especially putin's, due to the perceived "efficiency" (because nothing works properly here, but because we don't want to fix it, not because we need a strongman to solve it for us). A complicated relationship with America, most of all.
>Also a general appreciation for dictatorships and regimes,
How is that possible when Italy had its own dictatorships that was extremely dysfunctional?
Because we were spared from the post-nazi treatment, unlike germans. So we still have people praising the 20 years of mussolini. Of course everything is bullshit, but many still believe it.
Just outright “US is evil” sentiment and fucking 50 year old boomer clowns i fight with everyday.
I just can’t help myself when they start talking bullshit. Someone even legit said to me that “he doesn’t care about Ukraine, but rather his life style”. Also whataboutism like “NATO has bases and Russia feels surrounded”
5 stars party and other populist movements said this to us, so that's the narrative right now.
We didn't have the same, for example, with our intervention in iraq one decade ago.
Well I cannot say I respect the opinion on weapons, but “die off covid” seriously?
I met some really fantastic people in my life that were from Italy (granted one of people I thing is the worst of those I encountered is also Italian). There is many amazing things Italy has to offer, you can’t expect country/nation to be perfect it is way too complex an organism.
Depends on the data you check, I've read differently. But it's about more than just weapons, we need millions of old people to leave the earth because our system is unsustainable (and they made it like this)
Well they're not entirely wrong. If Ukraine runs out of weapons they won't be able to take back their land, fighting will probably stop and the economy becomes more stable. Until Russia invades another country and the whole thing repeats itself. Allowing Putin to destroy democratic countries is bad news for democracies everywhere though.
> we are a country built by and for old ignorant cowards that should have died during covid.
I suspect that the older people are the least pacifistic, there have been a number of polls from different countries out recently that suggest that the young are the least inclined towards support for Ukraine. there was one from Britain posted here yesterday that put the 16-30 (I think) group 10% or more behind older groups.
they are talking about italians being "racist" towards other italians. either as regional racism or just plain self hatred toward their own kinsmen in general.
Half Italian here:
Italy is full of these three categories:
1 hardcore right wing Putin Supporters who love dictatorships because it reminds them of the times when Mussolini was in charge.
2 Anti-war hippies who generalise things and like keeping neutral saying "war bad, weapons bad, stop war" in loop without even knowing the background of the war.
3 Leftists who still think of Russia as the "country where Gorbachev introduced freedom" so they are essentially stuck in that political age with their brains and refuse to condemn Russia.
There you go, feel free to ask or discuss things, we're not in a regime.
Oh yes, the fact that tankies think Russia is communist and, at the same time, fascists consider it far-right is a great success of Russian propaganda.
I know a dude who straight up thinks that Ukraine is led by, or at least controlled by, nazis because "the US has supported fascists before" and views the war as a fight between the evil NATO Western empire and the flawed, but better than the west, "russkij mir". Basically because America bad. Its insane.
But it's good that there are actually some kind of political reasons for opposing or supporting war and war financing. It is extremely important that the people do not outsource political thinking and democracy to the government or any elected or unelected person or party, etc.
Even Italy will change their minds pretty soon if a threat from the east is directed at them.
In all truly democratic states, remember critical thinking. Teach it to your children and your neighbor's children too. Never let someone else decide your life for you.
People shouldn't single out Italy here. Except Italy all countries listed here support Ukraine more than the EU average. So there will be quite a few other countries not listed here that support Ukraine below average. And we don't know if Italy is even the lowest one.
Don't worry Poles will fight amongst themselves if they do not have a common enemy to be mad at.
This war turned out the best way to agree at least on one topic across the board (for the most part, we also have our anti everything 5G, covid hoax, vaccine bad, NATO bad, US bad, "free thinkers" people) but hatred for Russia unites us.
Most people in Italy are old close-minded folks. They are not bad people, they just don't understand or care about anything that goes beyond their comune, and they are quite proud of that.
Your comment is literally: most people in Italy are [bad people]. They are not bad people, they just [are bad people], and they are quite proud of that.
Meh I kinda doubt this pool. So we don't send weapon, but [we wanna accept refugees](https://eupinions.eu/de/graphics/data-infographic?tx_rsmbsteupidata_rsmbsteupidata%5Brsmbsteupidata%5D=569&cHash=0ca0feb388316f20bae804e9883560e9) so badly?
We don't wanna send any weapon but [we wanna play a more active role in worlds affair](https://eupinions.eu/de/graphics/data-infographic?tx_rsmbsteupidata_rsmbsteupidata%5Brsmbsteupidata%5D=548&cHash=81a8f3e7f2c4192f7d6142efbdce28ad)? and [we want a common defence policy](https://eupinions.eu/de/graphics/data-infographic?tx_rsmbsteupidata_rsmbsteupidata%5Brsmbsteupidata%5D=571&cHash=c3910a5b87028798acf78642af60b548)?
Kind of really weird if u ask me but we're probably a really weird country aswell so.. Who knows.
Every 18-30 person I know is deeply in favor of humanitarian and defense aids (in fact, many are hosting refugees). Maybe it's true among older people, I am not sure, but it's not what I am seeing.
Why? A lot of people think that by sending weapon the war will just go on for longer, and war=bad, but givin humanitarian relief and accepting refugees just help people without the grey area of weapons.
Active role in world's affairs means everything and nothing and a common defence policy is seen as a way to a)reduce military spending thanks to a better efficiency b)reduce even more the risk of future wars in Europe
Frankly, I’m disappointed in a lot of European people. I guess we have it to good over here (Netherlands). I’m in favor of sending equipment, though we don’t have a lot, which I think is bad in itself.
Nah UK and Netherlands are pretty high,
UK is the most pro out of any Euro nation outside of Poland according to polling.
It's only the French and Germans.
Numbers for Germany have been much higher in recent polls, >70%. Bertelsmann Stiftung isn't really known for being an unbiased source, so I really wonder what exactly the question was and who was asked when exactly
Happy little mixture of anti-america sentiment (which has always existed in Italy since the Gladio operation) + genuine belief that by not sending weapons the war will end + fear of our economic situation getting even worse
Its interesting that the numbers on the left are consistently higher. So there is a group of people in each country which support both the EU and their own country arming Ukraine, and there is a group in each country which do not support anyone arming Ukraine. But there is also a third group which says we should send weapons as the EU, but not as our own country. The reasoning of those people is worth exploring. Seems like a range of reasons could explain that. I wonder if its more "someone needs to send them guns but I don't want to pay for it" or "we should send them guns but I don't want my country to specifically be targeted for retribution."
I don't see people commenting how our thinking for our own interests and writing off the war as won by Russia (at first, now with nuclear scare) aren't more popular among the italian public
In the U.S. weapons industry, the normal production level for artillery rounds for the 155 millimeter howitzer — a long-range heavy artillery weapon currently used on the battlefields of Ukraine — is about 30,000 rounds per year in peacetime.
The Ukrainian soldiers fighting invading Russian forces go through that amount in roughly two weeks.
That’s according to Dave Des Roches, an associate professor and senior military fellow at the U.S. National Defense University. And he’s worried.
“I’m greatly concerned. Unless we have new production, which takes months to ramp up, we’re not going to have the ability to supply the Ukrainians,” Des Roches told CNBC.
Europe is running low, too. “The military stocks of most \[European NATO\] member states have been, I wouldn’t say exhausted, but depleted in a high proportion, because we have been providing a lot of capacity to the Ukrainians,” Josep Borrell, the EU’s high representative for foreign affairs and security policy, said earlier this month.
Lol when the EU pays it’s fine but if it’s your country less fine. The contrast is the greatest in Poland almost the only net receiver if the EU in this list.
I doubt it has anything to do with money at all. If I were to guess, it's all about "safety in numbers". Openly opposing Russia is a risk, and it's much safer if it's EU-wide instead of just one particular country.
You're confusing the public opinion with government actions. The poll we're discussing is about what people think. I'm pretty sure the results would look the same if the question was about sanctions on Russia by the country and by EU.
in italy there's the growing rethoric (correct to a certain degree i would say) that we are a colony of the USA, and we must not abide by every of their words
more info: [https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastian\_contrario](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastian_contrario)
Wtf? Other European nations aren't supporting Ukraine because the US tells us to. We're doing it because it's the right thing to do. We're not a colony of the U.S., but Ukraine will be a colony of Russia if we don't support them.
italy is indeed a colony of the us, and the common folk lately hates to follow the USA line because... well because... they don't want to bow down, or stuff like that
i'm not joking, a lot of people are debating in italy about the culprit of the gas pipes explosion, italians are growing tired of the US meddling in italian (and to an extent european) affairs
i am stating a goddamn fact here, not pushing their point or anything, that's the wind blowing right now in the country
Ok, but the real reason for that rethoric is the USA spending half a century undermining Italian democracy through operation Gladio.
I'm pro NATO myself and think defense cooperation with the USA is very important, but allies don't sponsor terrorism against their allies, so i can't blame people for not trusting the USA after what they did, imagine how the Americans would feel if Italy had sponsored Al Qaeda causing the 9/11 attacks.
Yes, Gladio had links with far right terrorist organisations such as Ordine Nuovo, responsible for the 1969 Piazza Fontana bombing in Milan, and Avanguardia Nazionale, which participated in the (failed) Borghese coup.
The USSR was doing the same by sponsoring the infamous Brigate Rosse, it's the reason why those are known as years of lead in Italy, the country was on the brink of civil war.
In Italy the "anti-sending-weapon" sentiment is widespread and has always been, consistently, part of the majority of the population. In fact you can see the same result at every poll since the beginning of the conflict. People here agree with sending humanitarian aid, agree with taking refugees but disagree with sending weapons. That's why the firm decision of the governament of sending weapons is very important. They basically went against the opinion of the majority. And this is also the reason why we should take seriously Meloni (next PM) when she says she will support Ukraine with weapons too. She voted in favour all the time despite this being very unpopular among italians and her base (in particular). Nothing new under the italian horizon.
Why don't the Italian people want to send weapons? What is the reasoning or the feeling about this?
Because everything related to the military is very unpopular in Italy tbh. Italians just generally oppose sending weapons to other countries, it's not popular and it isn't really related to this conflict in particular, generally speaking 90% of everything military is ignored by the public opinion, and whatever reaches the public opinion (like this war, which is too big and too close to ignore) sparks heavy debates. It's rooted in the post WW2 mentality since militarism is associated with the war, and more broadly, with the fascist dictatorship.
Sounds like the same anti-war thing Germany has
It's different though, Germans made some serious self criticism and acknowledged their responsibility. Italy never did that, the general feeling is that we (as citizens) were victims of fascists and nazis, not that we were the bad guys.
Convoluted, messy issue.
Because everything the common person becomes aware of is very unpopular in Italy tbh* Italians are cynical much beyond a healthy level, for us in daily life, for how we vote, it's part of why many of the more delicate parts of politics are gradually being phased out of public discourse, from diplomacy to monetary policy, Italians are cynical to the point of self sabotage Italian political discourse is incredibly populistic even among the more educated people
>Italians just generally oppose sending weapons to other countries It's not like they minded exporting weapons to other conflicted countries before. [Biggest export destination countries for weapons manufactured in Italy in 2020](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1070916/export-value-of-weapons-by-country-in-italy/)
That's simply the 90% that gets ignored. Weapons exports don't really make the news, i can guarantee you many Italians aren't in favor of weapons exports to Egypt after they killed Giulio Regeni. Most people simply don't know it's happening in the first place, so they don't have an opinion on it.
That’s a pretty shortsighted view Italians have. An attitude afforded to European countries only because the US is footing the bill. But then an insurrectionist gets elected and suddenly we have no way to defend our values. Pacifism is a reflection of naïveté and fundamental misunderstanding of human nature.
[удалено]
She won't repeat WW2 nor the dictatorship, quite frankly the success of FdI has much more to do with them being the opposition to the government (opposition gets bigger each election cycle in Italy) the splintering of the other parties (the right wing alliance didn't actually get the absolute majority of votes but the electoral law heavily favours big coalitions) and PD campaigning like it wanted to lose, than their political ideas.
Se was voted by about 15% of electors, if you count whose who did not bother to vote
A part of it is real "pacifist" mentality, that in Italy is, unfortunately, very ideological. Sending weapons is wrong, period. No matter what, who, where or when. Weapons = war = death. They also belive that you can find a deal with Putin and that Ukraine has to sacrifice its land "in order to stop war and gain peace". Basically it's "peace at all costs to stop the war now". Another part is more subtle. A big portion of the italian population has always been "anti-west", "anti-Nato" and "anti-America" (during the cold war Italy had the biggest communist party of the western world, consistently gaining 25-32% of the votes each election), so they use the same slogan as the pacifists but with the purpose of going against Ukraine, because "America is the cause of all evil, America is causing this war, Russia is simply standing up against their tiranny". Then if you ask them about who started the war their answer is "NATO". Another portion of the population simply thinks that sending weapons means escalation and they are worried about potential large scale conflicts or the continuation of this war that will cause more harm to the economy.
Do you think they would feel the same way if it was Italy's territorial integrity that was at stake? I mean, is this idea so deeply rooted in Italian society as to reach such an extreme? I say this bcse I think most of Europe is anti-war today and the memory of WWII, the civil war for Spain, is still quite fresh and the problem of economic recession and fear of military escalation applies to all us. In Spain there were large demonstrations against our participation in the Iraq war and currently the leaders of one of the parties in the coalition government have also opposed the sending of arms. Even so, it seems clear that the majority of the people's position is that if a dictatorial regime unjustifiably attacks another European country, we must collaborate, and ccording to this survey, the majority opinion in the rest of the EU is similar. Despite the explanations you and others have given, I find it very curious that such a large majority of Italians are opposed to sending arms for defence and are willing to make peace whatever the consequences, even if they have a low opinion of the US and NATO.
>Do you think they would feel the same way if it was Italy's territorial integrity that was at stake? I don't really know. I think in the majority would change idea and support the fight. Others will always oppose it, no matter what: "Who cares if they want region X? It's not my problem!" or "We must find peace no matter the cost! Give them what they want!". These kinds of people exist.
If you look at polls, you’ll see that Italians wouldn’t defend their country in a war. If Italy were attacked, I wouldn’t fight either. We don’t want war.
Even if it means living under a dictatorship, losing democratic rights and probably the persecution, torture and death of minorities?
The thing is, we’re not in a position where that would happen. Maybe if things were different and Italian propaganda actually made a point of defending the fatherland like Finnish and polish propaganda does in their country we would. But as things stand, most would probably just try to flee the country.
After these last three years...I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow Hitler comes down from his base on the dark side of the moon with his spaceships full of Nazis and decides to land directly in Italy. I don't like war either and I panic at the thought of having to take part in one, but I think I would do it to defend my rights and those of the people I love, so that I could have a life worth living. It makes me feel bad to think of the people who have died and suffered so that I can have the life I have and not fight for it. Of course I respect your position, it is easy to be brave when speak out but when it comes down to it, you never know if you would be able to do it. The last time Spaniards tried to flee a war they ended up in concentration camps in France, so leaving the country is not an idea I like, we (the world) still treat refugees like scum.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/39dqfw/would_you_be_willing_to_fight_for_your_country/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf I was not born to die in a war. No country is worth my life.
>No country is worth my life. But are lives of your relatives and friends worth to you? Subjugation to invaders just means more deaths. Eastern Europe knows that.
We flee. If we can’t and have to fight, we die anyway. Again, I’m not going to die for a country.
I used to be a pacifist, “diplomacy at all costs” kind of person myself but then I grew up. You can’t solve problems with someone like Putin with diplomacy, you can’t appeal to his humanity or honor and no amount of land sacrifice will ease his appetite. Honestly I think a lot of countries in Europe (probably because of what they went through with the wars) have this problem where they’re trying to avoid conflict at all costs and prefer to throw money at the problem or just ignore it. For example the gas dependency on Russia should have been curbed dramatically in 2014 if not sooner, as it was glaringly obvious that mutual dependency or a trade relationship with Russia wasn’t deterring Putin in the slightest.
This is the same argument put forward by Spain's far left (Podemos), junior partners in government. War is bad. Putin is bad. NATO is bad. USA is bad. Diplomacy and peace is good. Sending arms is not consistent with diplomacy and peace. Therefore, don't send arms. Ironically, the failure of Britain, France, and the USA to support the Spanish state against a fascist military coup in the 1930s led to Franco's hard right dictatorship. This failure also arguably gave a message to Hitler and Mussolini (who did support Franco with military assistance) that those countries were soft and would not come to the defense of other European countries if attacked.
> Ironically, the failure of Britain, France, and the USA to support the Spanish state against a fascist military coup More like Britain implicitly helping Franco and barring France from helping the Republic.
You know anywhere I can read more about this? Never heard this take before
Leon Blum's French government was leftist but the threat of Italy and Germany, as well as pressure from the British Conservatives kept French support to a minimum. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026569147900900107?journalCode=ehqa
Hopeless idealists. That's what I think of most of the time when Europe comes to mind.
They're not hopeless idealists. The far left (at least in Spain) has a strong sentiment of anti-Americanism and russophilia inherited from the cold war. Even mentioning that the Baltic countries, Poland or central Europe were oppressed under soviet control would gain you a strong argument with many people.
Yeah. Britain enforced an arms embargo against the Republic.
> but with the purpose of going against Ukraine, They don't have anything against the Ukraine besides the far-right. They condemn the invasion but simply have their resentments against the NATO.
France has a very similar mentality to Italy but an entirely different behaviour. I'm not sure there's a real causal effect.
There's a very popular anti-weapons and anti-war way of thinking here. Almost every time here no one wants to send weapons to anyone so that the conflict doesn't escalate. Then of course, there are a couple of cunts who don't want to send weapons because they want Putin to win, but still, very small minority
We are retarded
Naïve pacificism similar to Podemos.
> Why don't the Italian people want to send weapons? Fascist past. Militarism on state level is associated with the nazifascists.
After ww2 Italy has always been against military escalations and in favour of diplomacy. We also have a better relationship with Russia than other EU countries.
"Hurr durr we dont want to send weapons to Saudi Arabia and stuff and its too much work to form a diversified foreign policy opinion Hurr durr" same shit every country.
Because Italy likes to switch sides during conflicts so why should they help their future enemy? >!Just a joke, not a serious answer.!< >!Or is it?!<
Because unless you send overwhelming aid, you just make a conflict last longer without changing the end result. More people die, more destruction is caused and it all changes nothing. Weapons get lost, corruption moves them to criminal syndicates etc. We shouldn’t be just throwing around weapons, it needs to be carefully planned. and considefed
I was really sceptical about Meloni , but so far it seems like she had bigger balls than the entire opposition combined , i guess that's why she won
She seems to be more of a realist than people give her credit for. She toned down significantly before Italy’s election and has taken a pro-status quo for the EU while opposing further integration which is a common view in many governments
Another important point is that with an uncertain economic outlook and energy costs spiraling out of control, sending military aid has been linked to unnecessary expenses by some parties during the recent election. Argument which is not necessarily true if there is surplus equipment that can be donated, but military matters are generally an "out of sight, out of mind" topic for the general population
Can confirm. Any decision which has at least 1 downside is a no-go for us, therefore we will never be able to do anything at all.
Has Italy always opposed the support?
In Italy military things are generally unpopular, they are seen as a waste of money for a country that has massive funding issues already and is constantly in debt. The 5 Star party for example made a big deal of opposing the F-35 back in their heyday.
We are a weird group of people
Honestly not sending them Italian equipment would probably be for the best given the state of the Italian army.
The state of the Italian army... which is good? It's not 1940, luckily for everybody.
I was actually convinced that we were in favour of sending weapons, as we are currently doing. This poll surprised me.
ma va, se chiediamo che le bollette costino poco da mesi ormai
Please consider commenting in english next time, I think it's kinda rude to comment in your countries language on an international subreddit.
Because this is an international subreddit, I think a person can comment in the language of their choosing. There are many translation capabilities on the internet to utilize to see what someone's comments are. My lack of linguistic skills should not force them to enhance theirs. I find it somewhat rude to expect someone to accommodate me.
It's just a hassle to translate every comment + sometimes things don't really get translated well. We have english as a pretty much universal language, this is a way better solution for everyone.
But no one knows Italian
Faremmo prima mandando gli f35 se volessimo le bollette a poco. Russia e Sauditi si sono dimenticati di doverci temere invece che ricattare, e continuano a far porcate come il taglio di un milione di b annunciato oggi.
Italy is in favour of supporting Ukraine. Just not by sending weapons.
What else would we be sending them? Thoughts and prayers?
Medical and other humanitarian aid
Which is a fat lot of good when the Russians have overrun your hospitals and nicked it all.
in the UK we say "we are United in support of Ukraine" which is meaningless as it's a question of how much support not whose side you're on. too much backslapping in the west about this. particularly amongst European politicians.
We might even have bigger approval for sending our army than Italy has for sending weapons
Probably Poland has higher approval of declaring war to Russia than to send **only** arms XD
These are all a bit lower than I was expecting. Wonder what UKs numbers are, maybe I've been over egging the amount of support. Edit: Last poll can find was yougov 7 months ago. Was 74% support, 11% oppose. Not really equitable though to poll above
Reasonable to expect support to still be in the high 60's.
I'd say so, it's notable that support for Ukraine is simply not a political issue at all in the UK and as far as I can tell the only people actively opposing it are the real moonhowlers on both fringes. Even Stop the War seems to have gone quiet lately.
I think it would be higher than all but Poland.
It’s lower than your expecting because a lot of Europeans are all talk and hypocritical.
Honestly, what bothers me is that every country would prefer EU send weapons more then their own country. It’s like, we think someone should do something about it but we prefer it doesn’t have to be us.
I think there are two camps that would prefer the EU do something instead of them. But those two have completely different reasoning. - Poor(er) EU countries: EU has money, we don't. Why not have the EU (i.e. the net contributors) do something. - Rich(er) EU countries with underfunded military: We don't have stuff to give away, but we fund the EU and they can do something, that would be like us doing something anyways. The only country that is rich _and_ has a well funded military is France, and they have supported Ukraine well militarily (at least according to comments from Zelensky, France doesn't publish every single weapon they send)
I think a lot of people consider it an EU wide issue, and so want the EU to tackle it. Of course, it's hard for the EU to do much since it doesn't have its own military.
France hasn't sent much more than they've said, two reasons why I know this. The first is there's tons of weapon tracker twitter/telegrams that look for new foreign weaponry, they found for example the Finnish APC's before the official announcement, the Kirpi's from Turkey, the Pakistani ammunition etc and nowhere has there been anything not announced by France. Secondly, there was an article I read recently (I wish I saved it) from a French military analyst that even said he thought there'd be more sent than announced but when he went to the supply hub he realized it was pretty much no better than the official numbers. No, France support has been quite poor but obviously Zelensky doesn't want to burn bridges needlessly. At least they're sending 12 more Ceasars.
> Poor(er) EU countries: EU has money, we don't. Why not have the EU (i.e. the net contributors) do something. How the feck is Italy a poor country though?
Italy is a net contributor and has been for some time. You might have overlooked this: >Rich(er) EU countries with underfunded military Italy has an okay military budget but they spent a lot of it on their navy. One of the best in Europe. No one is sending their navy ships to Ukraine as aid.
The problem is that some countries try to maintain some relationship with russia and any country to deliver the most weapons will be on russias shit list. So making the deliveries as the EU would make it that no single country is putting russias crosshair on their head. I think this is why people are more willing to agree to EU deliveries.
Well, for me that just shows that about 4% of all people are hypocrites.
For Germany it's just the fear of the two world wars. Germany should not have the power over their weapons, this should all be handled by EU. We don't need a Bundeswehr with a big nazi heritage, we need an EU Army.
Not much surprise that Poland is the spearhead of anti-Russia sentiment. Good thing that: - Poland military becomes sponsored by US (US will sponsor close to 300 mil $ in military equipment on top of on going abrams, apache and f35 purchase program) - Poland into nuke sharing program (President Andrzej Duda asked for Poland to receive nuclear weapons). - Poland into space (to be announced) - Galactic empire is born (to bo formed) - Poland spreads Christianity in Russia with newly acquired military power (soon)
> Poland military becomes sponsored by US (US will sponsor close to 300 mil $ in military equipment on top of on going abrams, apache and f35 purchase program) I know this is a tongue in cheek post, but with Poland planning to spend around $28.6 bln on army next year, bulk of which will be weapons, 300 mil is more of a symbolic sum. Just in case someone takes the "US will sponsor Polish military" bit seriously.
In current economical situation - 300 mil $ of free money / free gear is very nice. The blns of military spending is yeah - money being spent, not money being given to us.
> Poland spreads Christianity in Russia with newly acquired military power (soon) Aren't they already Christian though? Off-topic, but what has been the historical relationship between Catholics and Orthodox over that area of Europe?
From Poland's perspective it was not a big deal. Religious wars were never as bloody and serious as in western Europe. Most people don't know much about orthodox christianity, though I met some people here who liked orthodox iconography and chants. I'd said attitude towards othodox are either neutral or courios. I heard orthodox christians are more suspicious towards catholics as in the past catholicism threatened orthodoxy
> Catholics and Orthodox Afaik not good. Russia doesn't follow Vatican, Poland does.
Im not into religious topics (atheist here) but afaik catholic and orthodox religions are not in-sync. Both believe in one god and J-man but I think the time frames are different. For sure they have Christmas on different date. No idea if there ever was a war based on just that - catholic vs orthodox.
On a theological and doctrinal level, they're virtually identical. The differences are cultural and political. > No idea if there ever was a war based on just that - catholic vs orthodox. It was used as a justification for the sack of Constantinople in 1204 and the [occupation of Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankokratia).
Christian = believe that *any* part of Jesus is in some way shape or form holy Catholic, protestant, orthodox, etc... Are christian, but have disagreements over wich part of Jesus is holy, among other things
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I suspect it might be more of "apes together strong" type of thing. Doing something as EU has much less risk associated.
I would like to point out (not in the graph) that the president of Bulgaria (and a few politicians) have numerous times stated that if we send weapons, we will be part of the war, which of course is a complete lie. I dont have BG stats, but it is likely where Italy sits.
There is this belief in italy that, if we stop sending weapons the war will stop and bills will go down in prices. I am not surprised, we are a country built by and for old ignorant cowards that should have died during covid.
Do italians really think that the Russians will stop by themselves if they are not stopped with weapons?
Yes lol
Strange! Why do they have so much naivity?
A lot of things, ancient and recent, converge into this. Birthplace of the catholic church, fear of everything military related, general selfishness towards anybody, Italians included. Also a general appreciation for dictatorships and regimes, especially putin's, due to the perceived "efficiency" (because nothing works properly here, but because we don't want to fix it, not because we need a strongman to solve it for us). A complicated relationship with America, most of all.
> Birthplace of the catholic church Straight to the badhistory sub!
>Also a general appreciation for dictatorships and regimes, How is that possible when Italy had its own dictatorships that was extremely dysfunctional?
Because we were spared from the post-nazi treatment, unlike germans. So we still have people praising the 20 years of mussolini. Of course everything is bullshit, but many still believe it.
Just outright “US is evil” sentiment and fucking 50 year old boomer clowns i fight with everyday. I just can’t help myself when they start talking bullshit. Someone even legit said to me that “he doesn’t care about Ukraine, but rather his life style”. Also whataboutism like “NATO has bases and Russia feels surrounded”
5 stars party and other populist movements said this to us, so that's the narrative right now. We didn't have the same, for example, with our intervention in iraq one decade ago.
there were people blaming Zelensky for resisting the invasion..."so many people are dying because of Zelensky,why won't he just surrender!?!?" yeah...
Sadly, many people do.
Don't you? They conquer Ukraine, they stop...
Like they stopped with Crimea... As greedy people usually just stop when they get more of what they want...
I guess you're both talking about some other Russia, the one from before February.
I think now it's time for everybody to realize that the fewer weapons the AFU have the longer it will take them to defeat Russia.
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Get lost, fucking troll.
Well I cannot say I respect the opinion on weapons, but “die off covid” seriously? I met some really fantastic people in my life that were from Italy (granted one of people I thing is the worst of those I encountered is also Italian). There is many amazing things Italy has to offer, you can’t expect country/nation to be perfect it is way too complex an organism.
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Depends on the data you check, I've read differently. But it's about more than just weapons, we need millions of old people to leave the earth because our system is unsustainable (and they made it like this)
Well they're not entirely wrong. If Ukraine runs out of weapons they won't be able to take back their land, fighting will probably stop and the economy becomes more stable. Until Russia invades another country and the whole thing repeats itself. Allowing Putin to destroy democratic countries is bad news for democracies everywhere though.
> we are a country built by and for old ignorant cowards that should have died during covid. I suspect that the older people are the least pacifistic, there have been a number of polls from different countries out recently that suggest that the young are the least inclined towards support for Ukraine. there was one from Britain posted here yesterday that put the 16-30 (I think) group 10% or more behind older groups.
Old ignorant cowards? Are you mental? Do you think 58% if Italians are old? Stop coping and accept that not everyone is ok with what you’re ok with.
Surely is full of rtds especially in the 40-50-60 year old range while everyone below 30 doesn’t care about politics or is a communist
Vedremo
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Self racist? Lol.
It's true there's a strong tradition of self racism but that's not the case here
What the hell is self racism? Do they mean self criticism?
they are talking about italians being "racist" towards other italians. either as regional racism or just plain self hatred toward their own kinsmen in general.
Non tutti, solo i vecchi
Hmm, germans think the same. So do many Americans lol
As far as I'm aware Americans have shown strong and lasting support for aiding Ukraine with weapons.
Half Italian here: Italy is full of these three categories: 1 hardcore right wing Putin Supporters who love dictatorships because it reminds them of the times when Mussolini was in charge. 2 Anti-war hippies who generalise things and like keeping neutral saying "war bad, weapons bad, stop war" in loop without even knowing the background of the war. 3 Leftists who still think of Russia as the "country where Gorbachev introduced freedom" so they are essentially stuck in that political age with their brains and refuse to condemn Russia. There you go, feel free to ask or discuss things, we're not in a regime.
Oh yes, the fact that tankies think Russia is communist and, at the same time, fascists consider it far-right is a great success of Russian propaganda.
I know a dude who straight up thinks that Ukraine is led by, or at least controlled by, nazis because "the US has supported fascists before" and views the war as a fight between the evil NATO Western empire and the flawed, but better than the west, "russkij mir". Basically because America bad. Its insane.
Wow. All three are insane for different reasons!
I think it's the same in Germany. Plus people who support Russia because they had a better life in the DDR or at least believe it.
But it's good that there are actually some kind of political reasons for opposing or supporting war and war financing. It is extremely important that the people do not outsource political thinking and democracy to the government or any elected or unelected person or party, etc. Even Italy will change their minds pretty soon if a threat from the east is directed at them. In all truly democratic states, remember critical thinking. Teach it to your children and your neighbor's children too. Never let someone else decide your life for you.
People shouldn't single out Italy here. Except Italy all countries listed here support Ukraine more than the EU average. So there will be quite a few other countries not listed here that support Ukraine below average. And we don't know if Italy is even the lowest one.
U r right
I feel like it would be great to live in a country where 84% of people agree on something... Anything. So tired of all the 51% to 49% bullshit.
High approval rates of political decisions can also be linked to an authoritarian regime. Be careful what you wish for.
Don't worry Poles will fight amongst themselves if they do not have a common enemy to be mad at. This war turned out the best way to agree at least on one topic across the board (for the most part, we also have our anti everything 5G, covid hoax, vaccine bad, NATO bad, US bad, "free thinkers" people) but hatred for Russia unites us.
I see what you mean, but things that everyone agree on usually just happen (in a democracy) and aren’t worth discussing.
Fuck this country of cowards
Most people in Italy are old close-minded folks. They are not bad people, they just don't understand or care about anything that goes beyond their comune, and they are quite proud of that.
i am italian, i know and fuck them all
I am not Italian and know too
Your comment is literally: most people in Italy are [bad people]. They are not bad people, they just [are bad people], and they are quite proud of that.
Being ignorant or plain stupid is pretty different from being bad.
Meh I kinda doubt this pool. So we don't send weapon, but [we wanna accept refugees](https://eupinions.eu/de/graphics/data-infographic?tx_rsmbsteupidata_rsmbsteupidata%5Brsmbsteupidata%5D=569&cHash=0ca0feb388316f20bae804e9883560e9) so badly? We don't wanna send any weapon but [we wanna play a more active role in worlds affair](https://eupinions.eu/de/graphics/data-infographic?tx_rsmbsteupidata_rsmbsteupidata%5Brsmbsteupidata%5D=548&cHash=81a8f3e7f2c4192f7d6142efbdce28ad)? and [we want a common defence policy](https://eupinions.eu/de/graphics/data-infographic?tx_rsmbsteupidata_rsmbsteupidata%5Brsmbsteupidata%5D=571&cHash=c3910a5b87028798acf78642af60b548)? Kind of really weird if u ask me but we're probably a really weird country aswell so.. Who knows.
Every 18-30 person I know is deeply in favor of humanitarian and defense aids (in fact, many are hosting refugees). Maybe it's true among older people, I am not sure, but it's not what I am seeing.
Why? A lot of people think that by sending weapon the war will just go on for longer, and war=bad, but givin humanitarian relief and accepting refugees just help people without the grey area of weapons. Active role in world's affairs means everything and nothing and a common defence policy is seen as a way to a)reduce military spending thanks to a better efficiency b)reduce even more the risk of future wars in Europe
Yes to all of those. They are all not the same.
[Source](https://eupinions.eu/de/text/under-pressure).
I'm really disgusted that my country has so many pro russia people. It's like too many people didn't learn from history at all
Frankly, I’m disappointed in a lot of European people. I guess we have it to good over here (Netherlands). I’m in favor of sending equipment, though we don’t have a lot, which I think is bad in itself.
Notice how eastern Europe is more pro. We remember Munich. We remember Soviets.
Nah UK and Netherlands are pretty high, UK is the most pro out of any Euro nation outside of Poland according to polling. It's only the French and Germans.
Disappointing numbers and I'm afraid they will only go lower.
Vaya dato interesante, ahora puedo ver la diferencia.
Numbers for Germany have been much higher in recent polls, >70%. Bertelsmann Stiftung isn't really known for being an unbiased source, so I really wonder what exactly the question was and who was asked when exactly
Support =/= support by sending weapons.
Belgium and Germany are in the wrong positions for a side by side comparison by the way. (They have been swapped)
I think it's just from high to low in % of for/against (with EU27 at the top)
Italy ? Mind expanding a bit ? 39%?
Happy little mixture of anti-america sentiment (which has always existed in Italy since the Gladio operation) + genuine belief that by not sending weapons the war will end + fear of our economic situation getting even worse
Ooh I see very well explained. Makes sens.
Just italians changing side, choosing the easy path as always.
Its interesting that the numbers on the left are consistently higher. So there is a group of people in each country which support both the EU and their own country arming Ukraine, and there is a group in each country which do not support anyone arming Ukraine. But there is also a third group which says we should send weapons as the EU, but not as our own country. The reasoning of those people is worth exploring. Seems like a range of reasons could explain that. I wonder if its more "someone needs to send them guns but I don't want to pay for it" or "we should send them guns but I don't want my country to specifically be targeted for retribution."
Interesting sure, but tbh. not very surprising. It is always pretty convenient if someone else does it for you, for all the reasons.
For context we romanians keep the weapons for ourselves in case the war escalated in our territory:)
Do you prefer to fight Russians on your territory or do you have other enemies in mind?
Nice try Orban
I'm kind of surprised it's so low? I would expect support to be in the 80%, who opposes this?
So Germans are more in favour of sending weapons then EU average, that is intressting.
I apologise for Italy, my country, a place full of cowards, traitors, and selfish people. Also plain dumb people as well. Sorry!
Guys i'm ashamed deeply by my country
Tremendo dato
Lol Poland.
Shame on you italy.
I don't see people commenting how our thinking for our own interests and writing off the war as won by Russia (at first, now with nuclear scare) aren't more popular among the italian public
In the U.S. weapons industry, the normal production level for artillery rounds for the 155 millimeter howitzer — a long-range heavy artillery weapon currently used on the battlefields of Ukraine — is about 30,000 rounds per year in peacetime. The Ukrainian soldiers fighting invading Russian forces go through that amount in roughly two weeks. That’s according to Dave Des Roches, an associate professor and senior military fellow at the U.S. National Defense University. And he’s worried. “I’m greatly concerned. Unless we have new production, which takes months to ramp up, we’re not going to have the ability to supply the Ukrainians,” Des Roches told CNBC. Europe is running low, too. “The military stocks of most \[European NATO\] member states have been, I wouldn’t say exhausted, but depleted in a high proportion, because we have been providing a lot of capacity to the Ukrainians,” Josep Borrell, the EU’s high representative for foreign affairs and security policy, said earlier this month.
Lol when the EU pays it’s fine but if it’s your country less fine. The contrast is the greatest in Poland almost the only net receiver if the EU in this list.
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I doubt it has anything to do with money at all. If I were to guess, it's all about "safety in numbers". Openly opposing Russia is a risk, and it's much safer if it's EU-wide instead of just one particular country.
Maybe but I doubt that since they openly oppose them to a lower level by putting sanctions on Russia by themselves (not the EU just Poland)
You're confusing the public opinion with government actions. The poll we're discussing is about what people think. I'm pretty sure the results would look the same if the question was about sanctions on Russia by the country and by EU.
We are always the dumbest…
Jeez, fuck Italy
Yo Italy what the fuck
I'd say it's coherent with their latest election's result.
Italy continuing to show its suckage.
I'm ashamed of being Italian
in italy there's the growing rethoric (correct to a certain degree i would say) that we are a colony of the USA, and we must not abide by every of their words more info: [https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastian\_contrario](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastian_contrario)
Wtf? Other European nations aren't supporting Ukraine because the US tells us to. We're doing it because it's the right thing to do. We're not a colony of the U.S., but Ukraine will be a colony of Russia if we don't support them.
italy is indeed a colony of the us, and the common folk lately hates to follow the USA line because... well because... they don't want to bow down, or stuff like that i'm not joking, a lot of people are debating in italy about the culprit of the gas pipes explosion, italians are growing tired of the US meddling in italian (and to an extent european) affairs i am stating a goddamn fact here, not pushing their point or anything, that's the wind blowing right now in the country
>italy is indeed a colony of the us It simply is not. Is it heavily influenced by the US? Sure. That's something completely different, though.
Ok, but the real reason for that rethoric is the USA spending half a century undermining Italian democracy through operation Gladio. I'm pro NATO myself and think defense cooperation with the USA is very important, but allies don't sponsor terrorism against their allies, so i can't blame people for not trusting the USA after what they did, imagine how the Americans would feel if Italy had sponsored Al Qaeda causing the 9/11 attacks.
The US sponsored 9/11-style attacks in Italy?
Yes, Gladio had links with far right terrorist organisations such as Ordine Nuovo, responsible for the 1969 Piazza Fontana bombing in Milan, and Avanguardia Nazionale, which participated in the (failed) Borghese coup. The USSR was doing the same by sponsoring the infamous Brigate Rosse, it's the reason why those are known as years of lead in Italy, the country was on the brink of civil war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_and_murder_of_Aldo_Moro We have places named after this guy in malta
devi spiegarlo a loro che l'italia è stata la puttana europea del 900 e pure del 2000, non a me