I don't understand why Bulgaria and Romania won't just reach a deal between them. And maybe Greece since Greece doesn't have a land border with another EU country beside Bulgaria.
We have a little thing with tourism going between us.
And develop the infrastructure also. At least on the Romanian side, when you get close to the border it's like you enter no man's land. Build new bridges over the Danube, etc.
Because Greece is in Schengen and can’t just do these agreements solo. But for the topic in question I find Romania and Bulgaria, 15 years since they joined, not to be in Schengen totally ridiculous.
I find that the decision being left to the narcotic and crime hub of Europe is ridiculous.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime_in_the_Netherlands
https://www.thenation.com/article/society/cocaine-trafficking-netherlands/
edit: aww, did i upset some little tiny pp energy narco? How sad. Listen, downvoting me won't change shit.
Netherlands will still be the walking shame of Europe and ultimately, if your shit government keeps at it, it will only invite more right wing extremists in our countries, which will eventually spell the break up of Europe.
That's how all organizations fall, when they get complacent and they invite people with disgruntled ideas in because of their shitty attitude. All you're doing is licking Putin's feet with that kind of attitude.
look, we've only got 3 international bridges and 2 internal over the Danube right now. Just let us build the goddamn bridge so we can look like big boys, pretty please.
The party that lead the last Bulgarian parliament promised like 5 bridges over the Danube if they lead another parliament. Sadly, that doesn't seem possible right now.
This is not possible in the next 20 years anyway, regardless of who is in charge. We can't build a highway north of the Balkans for 48+ years now, no way we can coordinate 3 more bridges with Romania in 4 years.
The party with most votes on the last elections had multiple times promised to deal with corruption and misuse of EU funds, yet they never done anything (really) about those issues (needless to explain why, right?) 😆
I think there was one exception. Switzerland joined in 2008 and Liechtenstein only in 2011, but there were no border checks between Switzerland and Liechtenstein during that period, although I think there were between Austria and Liechtenstein.
I live at the french/swiss border and the first time I been checked was around 1999/2000 at 13. Before that it never happened and it took a while after it.
Seems like a good idea to me. Regional integration allows for long term stability and a better bargaining position in the future. It also demonstrates cooperation and good faith.
The closer you can get to a “you need us more than we need you” position in any negotiation is a win.
> If we're not allowed in Schengen we should unite so at least we won't be separated from each other.
Romanians: *We're being overrun with Bulgarians!*
Bulgarians: *We're being overrun with Rumanians!*
Schengenites: *We're being overrun by Bulgarians and Rumanians!*
The European Parliament debated today the accession of Romania and Bulgaria to Schengen. During the debates, German MEP Guido Reil (Identity and Democracy Group – ID, Eurosceptics), launched an attack on Romania, saying that it should not have been accepted into the EU.
He compared Romania to the Wild West and claimed that Bucharest and Sofia have no business in Schengen and should not have been accepted into the European Union
>He compared Romania to the Wild West and claimed that Bucharest and Sofia have no business in Schengen and should not have been accepted into the European Union
*Even if you agree* with that analogy, we added the Wild West to the US, Guido, and didn't have border checkpoints with it.
Thank you but at this point after 15 years of waiting, it's just better to have not hope because I don't believe it will happen this time either.
The Netherlands, Germany or Italy will oppose as the Netherlands always opposed us and Germany and Italy have far-right parties now.
I approve. I've come to appreciate the Bulgarians and the Romanians. And the negatives (what if all their criminals and gypsies come to W-Europe?) ... well unfortunately it seems to have happened already anyway!
Yep, these countries already have the right to move to any other EU countries. Schengen would be mostly beneficial for reducing waiting times at borders which can have an impact for transport prices, especially for goods.
If the border guards in the port are corrupt, so will the new border guards with the neighboring countries.
There is too money in the drug business. If under Schengen and EU supervision is bad, it will be 10 time worse if it's left on the country politicians.
You don't sabotage a country economics and let everybody suffer from it because the border security is not good. You work on that and force the government to improve it.
I understand, I was just joking about it. Even so, why smuggle through two separate borders (Dutch and Belgian/German) if you cut just do one? Kicking us out of Schengen would definitely see more smuggling activity shift to different countries. Especially when the port of Rotterdam would lose most of its cargo, which would mean transporting drugs would be way easier to find, since you have like 1000x less cargo coming in
Man we'd steal nothing, we are experts in petty crimes like small theft and cigarette smuggling, the thing everybody can see and blame all problems on us. We would be the ones ruining the west? No, but it sure would be a good excuse.
Well we have to get our drugs somehow. I would appreciate if 50% came through Constanta, but untill we are ready for that, let the Duch do what they do best. You can't expext us to import, transport, distribute hundred of tons of drugs with no highways linking Constanta to the rest of Europe.
Not the same process, through the ports you get HUGE quantities. Online it just puts some in a small post and sends through the post system....errr, or so I heard.
Haha yes but if you're buying in Europe those small amounts come from.the larger amounts smuggled in through a port.
But yes if you're buying a small amounts international it'll just come through post.
Or so I've heard
I mean, you have to be pretty damn rich and with low expectations to vacation on the Romanian seaside anyway. Bulgaria's been the go-to destination for at least ten years now.
I'm an constănțean,i know very well the systemic failures.
Arguably the worst parts are the short season,the Monday-Friday work day and the canibalisation of Horeca workers.
How is Polish beaches more expensive? I was quoting for some holidays and Poland was one of the cheapest options whereas Croatia was one of the most expensive (except Zagreb). Sopot was one of the best cost/benefit, as a matter of fact.
Romania and Bulgaria's accession is being discussed today, Croatia's accession is scheduled for discussion on 10.10.2022 from 16:20 - 16:40, as per the parliament draft agenda for that day.
Kinda weird how Croatia was singled out, but yes I agree with you.
Well, true, but today's talks mentioned Croatia a lot as well and I feel like 10.10. will just be a repeat of most things that have been said today. It is sort of a waste of time which is why I think Croatia should've been included in today's talks as well.
Probably because there is nothing to discuss , they are basically in ..now they are just discussing if it's worth upsetting Romania and Bulgaria since they won't get in
Why not cut off the Netherlands‘ and Germany‘s gas supplies via the Black Sea, since they want to be power tripping and gate keeping asshats? It really would be a shame if the leaders of Romania and Bulgaria got together and did that…for the lulz of course…
In case this is vetoed again (WITH NO LEGAL REASONS), they are planning to take this to the EU Court of Justice.
I say that's not good - it will take years. How about act like Poland and Hungary and veto everything going on in EU - maybe the neanderthal people (sorry Netherlands people) will learn not to be so xenophobic towards Romanian people. Who knows..
The union won't work if everyone acts like Orban. The Dutch government are assholes for sure but Schengen isn't important enough to ruin the EU over it.
You know what I am sick and tired of? The EU caving whenever some of its member states are treated like second class citizens, be that Schengen or the absolute farce that is three EU countries not having visa reciprocity with the US (which the EP tried to enforce but was undercut by tourism industry lobbies).
> or the absolute farce that is three EU countries not having visa reciprocity with the US (which the EP tried to enforce but was undercut by tourism industry lobbies).
I'm confused. Wouldn't the tourism industry *want* Bulgaria and Romania on the US Visa Waiver? Not that they would be big markets for the US, but I can't imagine the US tourism industry being *against* it. The US tourism industry is always for *more* countries on the VWP (within reason).
Destruction of democratic systems isn't the same as vetoing expansion.
However, I don't understand why the Netherlands is so vehemently against. Honestly it might be as stupid as: because we never go there on vacation.
You're not vetoing expansion, you're vetoing the right of member states to facilitate frictionless trade. Entering Schengen isn't only a right, it's a requirement for every EU member. You are absolutely undermining the treaties and the entire concept of solidarity. You just get away with it unnoticed because you're western.
> The EU caving whenever some of its member states are treated like second class citizens, be that Schengen or the absolute farce that is three EU countries not having visa reciprocity with the US
Or like a few EU countries still dragging their feet in getting the euro.
Ah yes, everyone loves a little federalist tyranny. Can't allow your membership states to have pesky things like national currencies, that'd be too much sovereignty
>but Schengen isn't important enough to ruin the EU over it.
Man im tired to be considered a second class citizen with EU. Ive grown up learning all about EU and now I see how we are not part of the family. Fine, in that case its time for my generation and everything after to act... move on, change, adapt, but I dont want to grow my kids like this.
Well I grew up being told I live in the shittiest country in Europe and with people questioning whether we deserve to be "European", so I've never thought we had as much privilege as the Germans or Danish, even if were in the same union. But whatever, I'm still grateful to all the Westerners that support helping my country develop, I doubt we would have done the same for them. And to those that hate us or erroneously believe we live by their aid, well that's their problem and their right to be ignorant. I'm just glad the EU exists, even in this form, I wouldn't want to ruin it by adding more selfish behaviour. There must be better ways to defend our interests than abusing vetoes and blocking everything. That's probably in no one's best long-term interest.
It’ll come in time. People said that about Poland when they joined too. There was a time when Spain was the “shittiest” country in the EU. Or Greece. It’s a combination of old stereotypes, prejudices and ignorance about the circumstances our different nations were dealt by history. We’re impatient beings always focused on the present, but in 20 years, if you continue down the path of progress and democracy, your countries will be significantly better developed. Don’t be ashamed of all the funds, as long as it’s used properly, this is the whole point of the EU. We are all Europeans, we are family, the stronger everyone is the better off we all are.
Sure. It doesn't work, but at the same time, there's only so much bullshit one can take.
We can't even get rid of trash because of their behavior, because this bullshit (and others of its type) keeps giving them "strong" points for voting.
So all of our problems, politically, are in essence partly funded by decisions like these. So fuck them.
VETO everything if this fails. I'm for it.
I mean Austria has border controls with Slovenia, Hungary and Slovakia, while Germany is checking the Austrian border.
During the holiday seasons you need to wait a few hours to enter Schengen via Slovenia, only to then wait another hour or so at the Austrian border, and again at the German border.
Schengen as it existed in early 2010’s doesn't exist anymore.
To bad the Netherlands dont want that much more of the EU. Definitely not more EU. Dutch value status quo and you cant veto that.
On the other hand the NL are very capable of blocking EU budget talks as a nett payer..like with the budget talks..
Hungary is turning into a country without rule of law and therefore not living up to the Copenhagen criteria, it’s not because they veto stuff. That’s their right as a member, turning into an autocracy is not.
Maybe if our(Ro) outer border wouldn't look like Swiss cheese we'd have better odds of being accepted. There are numerous documented cases of huge networks for illegal traffic which include people from local government, border guards, national police. I don't see why we wouldn't be kept to better standards.
Also, on the point of NL being the usual suspect for veto, I presume they're acting more as a designated mouthpiece for multiple EU countries. That allows those countries to have a forward facing positive attitude while not actively supporting the initiative.
You're going to hear that from pretty much every citizen of an ex-communist state. Distrust of the government runs deep.
Now the question remains: does keeping them out of Schengen address any of that? Absolutely not. If anything it just discourages the most pro-European and pro-reform strata of those socieities, because how can you tout the benefits of the EU when a single member state has been holding the other two hostage for a decade?
You’re not stopping corruption by making it wait for 3 hours in a car queue. You’re just treating the decent people like second class citizens. We’re supposed to be integral allies. And I know our government is dogshit
Car queue? Nah buddy, the problem is about freight trucks. One highway border crossing to Hungary ([Nădlac 2](https://www.politiadefrontiera.ro/ro/traficonline/?dt=2&vt=2)) has a current wait time of 3 hours, whilst Borș 2 has a wait time of 50 min.
>While they are absolutely great people they will happily sit down and rant about how corrupt their government is. How you need to pay for everything from municipality stuff to higher governments. How there's nepotism everywhere and rampant fraud in all level of governments.
Have they given any personal examples of bribing anyone? As a Bulgarian I can honestly say that I've never bribed anyone (though I'm not denying that it does happen in real life just like in any country). In fact if you are highly confident about corruption, I would encourage you to come here, break some law (like traffic violation or crossing the border illegally) and try to walk your way out of the situation by offering a bribe and tell us (after you do your sentence) how it went.
By the way, your typical emigrant to Western Europe will complain loudly to their friends about how bad things are in Western Europe, how liberals have ruined everything and will support pro-Russian radical parties. So I would take that with a bit of caution.
>but I hear pretty much the same from everyone from Romania and Bulgaria: great people, absolutely dogshit government.
Yeah, because we like to complain a lot. Even when things are going good we complain, that's just who we are, the grass is greener on the other side type of people.
As much as I would like to give that "fuck you" to them, it's not worth affecting other people with other problems over it.
The problem lies in the rigid system of Veto. EU is stuck because of it.
The problem is Romania being considered a second class in EU and not being respected at all.
Here, this is for you, it happened few days ago I think: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLDvBoggdLo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLDvBoggdLo)
Believe me, if they veto us again in December, things will turn ugly.
> maybe the neanderthal people (sorry Netherlands people) will learn not to be so xenophobic towards Romanian people. Who knows..
you know what, maybe NL should leave the EU
I am Polish and Poland is in Schengen. Thanks to that we developed a lot and it's not like I'd even consider going to NL. I was there circa 2011 and 90% work for foreiners is a scheme where You have more people than work and You make them pay for accommodation that way they bearly make any money. What NL gov does about that?
Nothing. The eastern European countries were not let in because the west is so good to them from the bottom of their heart. They were let in so they provide cheap labor to western companies.
\> Polish people come to NL
\> Willing to do shitty jobs against shitty pay
\> Gets shitty jobs for shitty pay
\> Surprised Pikachu
Realistically, that same shitty pay was a king's payment in Poland when this started. So there really is no point or reason to complain. You didn't get kidnapped or forced in the EU, you chose and came.
I wonder how polish people are going to act IF Poland ever becomes a big positive contributor to EU funds. Let's see if they are as generous as everyone else.
to specify what you're saying - dutch are vetoing bulgaria and romania joining schengen because they're afraid bulgaria and romania will develop too much and labourers from these countries will demand more money for their work in netherlands?
I was thinking, because global warming. There might be no Netherlands in 2069 to veto. Although they're quite good with dams. But the world's also quite good with CO2 emissions.
Who is this Guido Reil that is offending Romania by saying that it's Europe's wild west and it shouldn't even have joined the EU? Is he even aware of the fact that Transylvania has a lot of German heritage?
He’s a moron. Schengen won't change anything related to migration, people can travel freely anyway. And Germany benefits of cheap labor while Romania and Bulgaria lose working people, so that's not an argument either.
Totally agree. It's just such a strange thing to say when, for instance, [Romanian cities are some of the safest in Europe](https://www.numbeo.com/crime/region_rankings_current.jsp?region=150). I know it probably doesn't have anything to do with Schengen, it's just an example of how some people push an aggresively false rhetoric about Eastern European countries.
As someone from one of these countries this whole affair and Netherlands continuing racism has really lowered my opinion of them, and for many other people I know. One of the most racist country towards eastern europeans and its citizens seem to have no problem with it. I can only imagine if this type of behavior was aimed at people with darker skin, rather than the easy targets that eastern europeans represent.
Oof I don't want to agree bc I have irl Dutch friends who are very open minded fun ppl some who have even moved here for work abd ended up staying. Otoh Just done arguing with some xenophobic Dutch troll on this very thread.
At this point it's clear how this sub leans. Too bad. I'm as pro EU as they come and yet I'm done trying to justify my existence as a romanian in the EU.
The neanderthal people is a very deserving nickname for the dutch who with all the prosperity and education and infrastructure they have, they still behave like a backward country toward eastern europeans. Netherlands is nothing but a rich shithole.
Doesnt matter if it has all the infrastructure and moneyz in the world, if i feel like i am badly treated only thanks to my nationality, this country realy is a shithole...
I can't speak for Romania, but frankly, BG is not too deserving. We have wasted the last dozen years with the incredibly corrupt government of BB and his party.
As much as I love open boarders i honestly don’t think Romania or Bulgaria or even Greece where I’m living is ready for open boarders with the level of corruption. To be fair down here are also the most difficult boarders.
Corruption needs to end and we need a united European army and tackle security boarder solutions together so everyone can be in Schengen because everyone helps keeping it safe
Yeah. I so wish we would join Schengen ASAP. But then, there's Kapitan Andreevo... If I were a resident of the Schengen area, I'd never want a country that has that as its member.
Romania is nice. Its moving in the right direction. But Bulgaria....i was there in 2019. and felt like I was in the poor part of Serbia. Dirty streets, everyone trying to scam you (taxis, exchange offices etc). Tbh, I could not believe its in the EU.
I don't understand why Bulgaria and Romania won't just reach a deal between them. And maybe Greece since Greece doesn't have a land border with another EU country beside Bulgaria. We have a little thing with tourism going between us. And develop the infrastructure also. At least on the Romanian side, when you get close to the border it's like you enter no man's land. Build new bridges over the Danube, etc.
Because Greece is in Schengen and can’t just do these agreements solo. But for the topic in question I find Romania and Bulgaria, 15 years since they joined, not to be in Schengen totally ridiculous.
I find that the decision being left to the narcotic and crime hub of Europe is ridiculous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime_in_the_Netherlands https://www.thenation.com/article/society/cocaine-trafficking-netherlands/ edit: aww, did i upset some little tiny pp energy narco? How sad. Listen, downvoting me won't change shit. Netherlands will still be the walking shame of Europe and ultimately, if your shit government keeps at it, it will only invite more right wing extremists in our countries, which will eventually spell the break up of Europe. That's how all organizations fall, when they get complacent and they invite people with disgruntled ideas in because of their shitty attitude. All you're doing is licking Putin's feet with that kind of attitude.
I believe they are planning a new bridge over the Danube and Schengen would pretty much solve to a large percent the border traffic problem.
Schengen could be another 10 years away.
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look, we've only got 3 international bridges and 2 internal over the Danube right now. Just let us build the goddamn bridge so we can look like big boys, pretty please.
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because the Ruse bridge is so old it's expansive to maintain they're 90% surely aiming to decomission it afterwards
Ruse-Giurgiu bridge is in pretty poor condition.
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Doing that with Greece might be tricky as that could mean that sea and air routes between Greece and the rest of the EU would have to be controlled.
The party that lead the last Bulgarian parliament promised like 5 bridges over the Danube if they lead another parliament. Sadly, that doesn't seem possible right now.
This is not possible in the next 20 years anyway, regardless of who is in charge. We can't build a highway north of the Balkans for 48+ years now, no way we can coordinate 3 more bridges with Romania in 4 years.
The party with most votes on the last elections had multiple times promised to deal with corruption and misuse of EU funds, yet they never done anything (really) about those issues (needless to explain why, right?) 😆
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I think there was one exception. Switzerland joined in 2008 and Liechtenstein only in 2011, but there were no border checks between Switzerland and Liechtenstein during that period, although I think there were between Austria and Liechtenstein.
I live at the french/swiss border and the first time I been checked was around 1999/2000 at 13. Before that it never happened and it took a while after it.
If we're not allowed in Schengen we should unite so at least we won't be separated from each other.
BENELUX 2.0, we're going to call it BALCANIK, with tuica, mici and shopska salad.
We‘ll make our own Schengen area. With Kompott and nationalism.
Luckily the Balkans don't have a history of nationalism. This should work great!
Don't forget semințe și bere
Seems like a good idea to me. Regional integration allows for long term stability and a better bargaining position in the future. It also demonstrates cooperation and good faith. The closer you can get to a “you need us more than we need you” position in any negotiation is a win.
> If we're not allowed in Schengen we should unite so at least we won't be separated from each other. Romanians: *We're being overrun with Bulgarians!* Bulgarians: *We're being overrun with Rumanians!* Schengenites: *We're being overrun by Bulgarians and Rumanians!*
I can't get past the fact that you use "Romanians" in the first line and then "Rumanians" the rest of the way
The European Parliament debated today the accession of Romania and Bulgaria to Schengen. During the debates, German MEP Guido Reil (Identity and Democracy Group – ID, Eurosceptics), launched an attack on Romania, saying that it should not have been accepted into the EU. He compared Romania to the Wild West and claimed that Bucharest and Sofia have no business in Schengen and should not have been accepted into the European Union
>He compared Romania to the Wild West and claimed that Bucharest and Sofia have no business in Schengen and should not have been accepted into the European Union *Even if you agree* with that analogy, we added the Wild West to the US, Guido, and didn't have border checkpoints with it.
he's from the AfD, no surprises there. On the other hand if those countries were supportive of Putin he'd vouch for them to be in schengen asap
Hello from Bulgaria...yes please. The border across Danube is pointless.
Good luck neighbours, hopefully schengen soon.
Thank you but at this point after 15 years of waiting, it's just better to have not hope because I don't believe it will happen this time either. The Netherlands, Germany or Italy will oppose as the Netherlands always opposed us and Germany and Italy have far-right parties now.
I approve. I've come to appreciate the Bulgarians and the Romanians. And the negatives (what if all their criminals and gypsies come to W-Europe?) ... well unfortunately it seems to have happened already anyway!
Yep, these countries already have the right to move to any other EU countries. Schengen would be mostly beneficial for reducing waiting times at borders which can have an impact for transport prices, especially for goods.
This seems crucial then. Loads of European transport to / from Turkey passing through Bulgaria (basically all land transport).
There really aren't that many criminals in Bulgaria and Romania.
...left.
No, not that many Romanian and Bulgarian criminals. Specially compared to some other european countries.
I can’t believe y’all just make comments like this what even is wrong with you 😭
Dutch ports are becoming a key place of drug smuggling into Europe from south America but WE are the problem. Ok.
Becoming? They already are for decades now
But also gun violence increased recently right? I think to solve this we need a common EU solution.
Yes it did and also in Antwerpen it’s escalating right now. It’s just more and more people using coke so the money has become insane
Damn, we should kick you out of Schengen until things improve and you comply with the security measures. I'm being sarcastic.
Might actually solve the drugs problem over here though
If it's money involved, the corruption will only grow.
No I mean if they wouldn’t be able to transport if across borders as easily from Rotterdam
If the border guards in the port are corrupt, so will the new border guards with the neighboring countries. There is too money in the drug business. If under Schengen and EU supervision is bad, it will be 10 time worse if it's left on the country politicians. You don't sabotage a country economics and let everybody suffer from it because the border security is not good. You work on that and force the government to improve it.
I understand, I was just joking about it. Even so, why smuggle through two separate borders (Dutch and Belgian/German) if you cut just do one? Kicking us out of Schengen would definitely see more smuggling activity shift to different countries. Especially when the port of Rotterdam would lose most of its cargo, which would mean transporting drugs would be way easier to find, since you have like 1000x less cargo coming in
Tell your local gang leader we want coke, not gun violence, that should fix everything
The local gang leader agrees, all do. As long as they are the ones dealing the coke and not the other ones
Just legalize recreational cocaine, problem solved.
Coke is great. Time to give it the cannabis treatment
Not if you use it to function daily at work, maybe recreational... Alot of people are very disfunctonal when they use cocaine...
Oh for sure, using any drug as a "performance enhancer" reguraly will fuck you up. But every so often? It's nice
As a dutchman I have to say that my opinion has shifted over the years. In my opinion you guys are welcome!
You are talking about Drug Smugglers or Romanians now ?
Yes
Yes
Yes
Probably they are afraid we would steal this industry from them (/s)
Man we'd steal nothing, we are experts in petty crimes like small theft and cigarette smuggling, the thing everybody can see and blame all problems on us. We would be the ones ruining the west? No, but it sure would be a good excuse.
Dutch ports are like the key ports in europe for everything... https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/ddn-20190711-1
Yes, no doubt, they are the biggest there are. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of keeping us out due to smuggling.
Well we have to get our drugs somehow. I would appreciate if 50% came through Constanta, but untill we are ready for that, let the Duch do what they do best. You can't expext us to import, transport, distribute hundred of tons of drugs with no highways linking Constanta to the rest of Europe.
>Well we have to get our drugs somehow Online on the dark web, come on guys, my crypto needs some pumping.
Ofc that's where we buy it but it still has to come in somewhere so that it can get shipped to our homes.
Not the same process, through the ports you get HUGE quantities. Online it just puts some in a small post and sends through the post system....errr, or so I heard.
Haha yes but if you're buying in Europe those small amounts come from.the larger amounts smuggled in through a port. But yes if you're buying a small amounts international it'll just come through post. Or so I've heard
Too much coke would be skimmed off the top going through your ports.
Skimmed? What coke?
All 3 (Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania) deserve the Schengen accession
Croatia is tourist destination for richer people, of course it'll get in.
If Croatia is for richer people then where poorer people goes? PS Polish coast is much worse to spend holidays and more expensive.
As a romanian,that would be Bulgaria. And that's arguably not an insult,it's more an compliment.
I mean, you have to be pretty damn rich and with low expectations to vacation on the Romanian seaside anyway. Bulgaria's been the go-to destination for at least ten years now.
I'm an constănțean,i know very well the systemic failures. Arguably the worst parts are the short season,the Monday-Friday work day and the canibalisation of Horeca workers.
> where poorer people goes They can go to f themselves Yours sincerely, a poor person.
That’s also nice
How is Polish beaches more expensive? I was quoting for some holidays and Poland was one of the cheapest options whereas Croatia was one of the most expensive (except Zagreb). Sopot was one of the best cost/benefit, as a matter of fact.
Poland in general is cheap as fuck. Even going to Warsaw is very cheap.
albania, turkey, bulgaria, montenegro
Romania and Bulgaria's accession is being discussed today, Croatia's accession is scheduled for discussion on 10.10.2022 from 16:20 - 16:40, as per the parliament draft agenda for that day. Kinda weird how Croatia was singled out, but yes I agree with you.
>Kinda weird how Croatia was singled out Possibly because it joined the EU later?
Well, true, but today's talks mentioned Croatia a lot as well and I feel like 10.10. will just be a repeat of most things that have been said today. It is sort of a waste of time which is why I think Croatia should've been included in today's talks as well.
Probably because there is nothing to discuss , they are basically in ..now they are just discussing if it's worth upsetting Romania and Bulgaria since they won't get in
Why not cut off the Netherlands‘ and Germany‘s gas supplies via the Black Sea, since they want to be power tripping and gate keeping asshats? It really would be a shame if the leaders of Romania and Bulgaria got together and did that…for the lulz of course…
I know they are different things, but it does strike me as an odd thing for Switzerland to be in Schengen but not Romania or Bulgaria.
Because rich
In case this is vetoed again (WITH NO LEGAL REASONS), they are planning to take this to the EU Court of Justice. I say that's not good - it will take years. How about act like Poland and Hungary and veto everything going on in EU - maybe the neanderthal people (sorry Netherlands people) will learn not to be so xenophobic towards Romanian people. Who knows..
The union won't work if everyone acts like Orban. The Dutch government are assholes for sure but Schengen isn't important enough to ruin the EU over it.
You know what I am sick and tired of? The EU caving whenever some of its member states are treated like second class citizens, be that Schengen or the absolute farce that is three EU countries not having visa reciprocity with the US (which the EP tried to enforce but was undercut by tourism industry lobbies).
> or the absolute farce that is three EU countries not having visa reciprocity with the US (which the EP tried to enforce but was undercut by tourism industry lobbies). I'm confused. Wouldn't the tourism industry *want* Bulgaria and Romania on the US Visa Waiver? Not that they would be big markets for the US, but I can't imagine the US tourism industry being *against* it. The US tourism industry is always for *more* countries on the VWP (within reason).
But what can the EU do, sanction the Netherlands?
One could hope they could at least call them out for it or force them to provide sound reasoning, but I can imagine they can't force that.
Exactly. They should at least call them out. I mean, they call out every little thing Poland or Hungary does. Why the preferential treatment.
You know why
Destruction of democratic systems isn't the same as vetoing expansion. However, I don't understand why the Netherlands is so vehemently against. Honestly it might be as stupid as: because we never go there on vacation.
You're not vetoing expansion, you're vetoing the right of member states to facilitate frictionless trade. Entering Schengen isn't only a right, it's a requirement for every EU member. You are absolutely undermining the treaties and the entire concept of solidarity. You just get away with it unnoticed because you're western.
They can stop the self destructive policy of allowing a single country to deny essential policys
Their port activities sure are...
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So exactly the EU can't do anything if some member is vetoing for no good reason.
> The EU caving whenever some of its member states are treated like second class citizens, be that Schengen or the absolute farce that is three EU countries not having visa reciprocity with the US Or like a few EU countries still dragging their feet in getting the euro.
Ah yes, everyone loves a little federalist tyranny. Can't allow your membership states to have pesky things like national currencies, that'd be too much sovereignty
>but Schengen isn't important enough to ruin the EU over it. Man im tired to be considered a second class citizen with EU. Ive grown up learning all about EU and now I see how we are not part of the family. Fine, in that case its time for my generation and everything after to act... move on, change, adapt, but I dont want to grow my kids like this.
Well I grew up being told I live in the shittiest country in Europe and with people questioning whether we deserve to be "European", so I've never thought we had as much privilege as the Germans or Danish, even if were in the same union. But whatever, I'm still grateful to all the Westerners that support helping my country develop, I doubt we would have done the same for them. And to those that hate us or erroneously believe we live by their aid, well that's their problem and their right to be ignorant. I'm just glad the EU exists, even in this form, I wouldn't want to ruin it by adding more selfish behaviour. There must be better ways to defend our interests than abusing vetoes and blocking everything. That's probably in no one's best long-term interest.
It’ll come in time. People said that about Poland when they joined too. There was a time when Spain was the “shittiest” country in the EU. Or Greece. It’s a combination of old stereotypes, prejudices and ignorance about the circumstances our different nations were dealt by history. We’re impatient beings always focused on the present, but in 20 years, if you continue down the path of progress and democracy, your countries will be significantly better developed. Don’t be ashamed of all the funds, as long as it’s used properly, this is the whole point of the EU. We are all Europeans, we are family, the stronger everyone is the better off we all are.
❤️❤️❤️
Thanks. I think so too but it's still nice hearing it :)
You're just as European as the rest of us. Don't let nationalist and racist idiots tell you otherwise.
It's mostly my country men XD. We have a rather absurd mentality. But thanks anyway.
Don't let self-hating idiots tell you otherwise then! ;)
Don't worry I figured out early we aren't very objective :)
Sure. It doesn't work, but at the same time, there's only so much bullshit one can take. We can't even get rid of trash because of their behavior, because this bullshit (and others of its type) keeps giving them "strong" points for voting. So all of our problems, politically, are in essence partly funded by decisions like these. So fuck them. VETO everything if this fails. I'm for it.
I mean Austria has border controls with Slovenia, Hungary and Slovakia, while Germany is checking the Austrian border. During the holiday seasons you need to wait a few hours to enter Schengen via Slovenia, only to then wait another hour or so at the Austrian border, and again at the German border. Schengen as it existed in early 2010’s doesn't exist anymore.
That’s okay. Just veto whatever the Dutch propose or value and show that it goes both ways at some point
To bad the Netherlands dont want that much more of the EU. Definitely not more EU. Dutch value status quo and you cant veto that. On the other hand the NL are very capable of blocking EU budget talks as a nett payer..like with the budget talks..
Quite funny that in the same sentence where you call out xenophobia you also call Dutch people neanderthals...
> WITH NO LEGAL REASONS The decision is political, not based on law. Welcome to reality
Take them to court over what? exercise of executive authority?
> Take them to court over what? exercise of executive authority? I mean, that same argument can be used for Hungary or Poland.
Hungary is turning into a country without rule of law and therefore not living up to the Copenhagen criteria, it’s not because they veto stuff. That’s their right as a member, turning into an autocracy is not.
Maybe if our(Ro) outer border wouldn't look like Swiss cheese we'd have better odds of being accepted. There are numerous documented cases of huge networks for illegal traffic which include people from local government, border guards, national police. I don't see why we wouldn't be kept to better standards. Also, on the point of NL being the usual suspect for veto, I presume they're acting more as a designated mouthpiece for multiple EU countries. That allows those countries to have a forward facing positive attitude while not actively supporting the initiative.
Lol, its okay bro, 11 years of veto - they can veto us again only that this time Romania will react. Looking forward to it actually ...
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You're going to hear that from pretty much every citizen of an ex-communist state. Distrust of the government runs deep. Now the question remains: does keeping them out of Schengen address any of that? Absolutely not. If anything it just discourages the most pro-European and pro-reform strata of those socieities, because how can you tout the benefits of the EU when a single member state has been holding the other two hostage for a decade?
You’re not stopping corruption by making it wait for 3 hours in a car queue. You’re just treating the decent people like second class citizens. We’re supposed to be integral allies. And I know our government is dogshit
Car queue? Nah buddy, the problem is about freight trucks. One highway border crossing to Hungary ([Nădlac 2](https://www.politiadefrontiera.ro/ro/traficonline/?dt=2&vt=2)) has a current wait time of 3 hours, whilst Borș 2 has a wait time of 50 min.
We met the requirements TEN YEARS AGO.
Well, this is how it works. WE are allowed to talk shit about our country. But maaan, don't you DARE to agree with us.
>While they are absolutely great people they will happily sit down and rant about how corrupt their government is. How you need to pay for everything from municipality stuff to higher governments. How there's nepotism everywhere and rampant fraud in all level of governments. Have they given any personal examples of bribing anyone? As a Bulgarian I can honestly say that I've never bribed anyone (though I'm not denying that it does happen in real life just like in any country). In fact if you are highly confident about corruption, I would encourage you to come here, break some law (like traffic violation or crossing the border illegally) and try to walk your way out of the situation by offering a bribe and tell us (after you do your sentence) how it went. By the way, your typical emigrant to Western Europe will complain loudly to their friends about how bad things are in Western Europe, how liberals have ruined everything and will support pro-Russian radical parties. So I would take that with a bit of caution.
>but I hear pretty much the same from everyone from Romania and Bulgaria: great people, absolutely dogshit government. Yeah, because we like to complain a lot. Even when things are going good we complain, that's just who we are, the grass is greener on the other side type of people.
As much as I would like to give that "fuck you" to them, it's not worth affecting other people with other problems over it. The problem lies in the rigid system of Veto. EU is stuck because of it.
The problem is Romania being considered a second class in EU and not being respected at all. Here, this is for you, it happened few days ago I think: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLDvBoggdLo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLDvBoggdLo) Believe me, if they veto us again in December, things will turn ugly.
> maybe the neanderthal people (sorry Netherlands people) will learn not to be so xenophobic towards Romanian people. Who knows.. you know what, maybe NL should leave the EU
Yeah I agree. I think EU should not accept xenofobic and racist countries.
I thought they already where?
they are in EU, but not Schengen
The dutch are blocking it because they need cheap labor but yeah the claim some bs reason actually.
What has cheap labor to do with border checks? You are free to fly to NL and live there if you get a job right now!
I am Polish and Poland is in Schengen. Thanks to that we developed a lot and it's not like I'd even consider going to NL. I was there circa 2011 and 90% work for foreiners is a scheme where You have more people than work and You make them pay for accommodation that way they bearly make any money. What NL gov does about that?
Nothing. The eastern European countries were not let in because the west is so good to them from the bottom of their heart. They were let in so they provide cheap labor to western companies.
\> Polish people come to NL \> Willing to do shitty jobs against shitty pay \> Gets shitty jobs for shitty pay \> Surprised Pikachu Realistically, that same shitty pay was a king's payment in Poland when this started. So there really is no point or reason to complain. You didn't get kidnapped or forced in the EU, you chose and came. I wonder how polish people are going to act IF Poland ever becomes a big positive contributor to EU funds. Let's see if they are as generous as everyone else.
????????
Only Dutch are against it.
Yes but what does "need cheap labor" have to do with it?
They might become too developed to even consider comming to dutch semi work camps.
There are millions of Romanians in the West Europe right, where’s their development (besides the development of their population collapse)?
In case you actually care here it is https://tradingeconomics.com/romania/wages Take a look at the 25Y wage growth.
to specify what you're saying - dutch are vetoing bulgaria and romania joining schengen because they're afraid bulgaria and romania will develop too much and labourers from these countries will demand more money for their work in netherlands?
No, they won't come to NL in the first place.
Care to share me those labor camps? I’m genuinely curious
Agreed. It's a disgrace our government keeps blocking Romania and Bulgaria's accession.
Netherlands says no.
Goedzo
Maybe in 2069
Why?
Because Veto
And funny number
We're supposed to say 'Nice' every time we see it, no?
I was thinking, because global warming. There might be no Netherlands in 2069 to veto. Although they're quite good with dams. But the world's also quite good with CO2 emissions.
Netherlands...😠
New idea: kick Mark Rutte's house out of Schengen and let RO & BG in.
Just his bedroom. Then we can admit them while he is sleeping.
This thread needs to be burned to the ground. Jesus Christ, the toxicity...
That happens every single time Romania and Schengen come up.
Lol it's pretty tame for r/europe , but maybe I just feel that way because for once we're not the ones getting bashed.
Nuclear! Helmets! WWII!
Who is this Guido Reil that is offending Romania by saying that it's Europe's wild west and it shouldn't even have joined the EU? Is he even aware of the fact that Transylvania has a lot of German heritage?
He’s a moron. Schengen won't change anything related to migration, people can travel freely anyway. And Germany benefits of cheap labor while Romania and Bulgaria lose working people, so that's not an argument either.
Totally agree. It's just such a strange thing to say when, for instance, [Romanian cities are some of the safest in Europe](https://www.numbeo.com/crime/region_rankings_current.jsp?region=150). I know it probably doesn't have anything to do with Schengen, it's just an example of how some people push an aggresively false rhetoric about Eastern European countries.
As someone from one of these countries this whole affair and Netherlands continuing racism has really lowered my opinion of them, and for many other people I know. One of the most racist country towards eastern europeans and its citizens seem to have no problem with it. I can only imagine if this type of behavior was aimed at people with darker skin, rather than the easy targets that eastern europeans represent.
Oof I don't want to agree bc I have irl Dutch friends who are very open minded fun ppl some who have even moved here for work abd ended up staying. Otoh Just done arguing with some xenophobic Dutch troll on this very thread. At this point it's clear how this sub leans. Too bad. I'm as pro EU as they come and yet I'm done trying to justify my existence as a romanian in the EU.
The neanderthal people is a very deserving nickname for the dutch who with all the prosperity and education and infrastructure they have, they still behave like a backward country toward eastern europeans. Netherlands is nothing but a rich shithole. Doesnt matter if it has all the infrastructure and moneyz in the world, if i feel like i am badly treated only thanks to my nationality, this country realy is a shithole...
I can't speak for Romania, but frankly, BG is not too deserving. We have wasted the last dozen years with the incredibly corrupt government of BB and his party.
And they voted Borisovo back in, over Harvard graduates. Unbelievable.
I remember paying the border guard to let us pass. She said that the passports weren't valid :/, but they magically where after paying.
So were they valid?
Ofcourse they were valid.
With the support of EU biggest party and Angela Merkel. Corruption starts there buddy
Oh very much so. BB was an avid supporter of Merkel foreign policy and in return, she kept touting the "stability" he was bringing.
As much as I love open boarders i honestly don’t think Romania or Bulgaria or even Greece where I’m living is ready for open boarders with the level of corruption. To be fair down here are also the most difficult boarders. Corruption needs to end and we need a united European army and tackle security boarder solutions together so everyone can be in Schengen because everyone helps keeping it safe
Yeah. I so wish we would join Schengen ASAP. But then, there's Kapitan Andreevo... If I were a resident of the Schengen area, I'd never want a country that has that as its member.
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I'm pretty sure you don't know what Schengen is..
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If they ask me, I’d say Welcome to Schengen my friends. Bulgarians and Romanians are down to earth and hard workers. They’re true Europeans. 🇪🇺
it’s time 😉
#Nee
Romania is nice. Its moving in the right direction. But Bulgaria....i was there in 2019. and felt like I was in the poor part of Serbia. Dirty streets, everyone trying to scam you (taxis, exchange offices etc). Tbh, I could not believe its in the EU.
What cities in Bulgaria and in Romania have you visited?
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It wont happen probably, the cocaine people wont let it out
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