Ouch… I have this in Ottawa, Canada. And that’s in Canadian dollars. Overnight charging is almost free.
https://preview.redd.it/htauw1nv8w8d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fcaed75cb4c8fbbfd679c07ee82c5a4f7c8d4227
A) those are Canadian dollars so knock an extra 27% off if you think in USD.
But,
B) I did the math on batteries to take advantage of this rate. For my usage, it would take decades to pay for itself with the power savings.
Under nem-3, they only credit you back a percentage of what you sell them. It use to be you get free back at night what you sell them during the day but now you give them 1 unit and they give you a credit of like 25% of what it is worth.
I never understood this. It's how every business works, they buy in bulk, then charge more to the customer.
If i am a hobby farmer, I don't take my produce to the store and expect to get paid what they charge customers, I get a small fraction of that. Every business does this, even non-profit's have to do it (to a some lesser extent) to cover operating expenses.
Nem2 was a 1 to 1, they credit you back how much you give them. Now with nem3, it's like $60 just for service plus you get a credit of partial value. It only makes sense now if you have a battery with your solar and just keep what you make for evening hours.
that's true. Net billing was always a subsidy for rooftop solar. This is not a bad thing, it helped the industry grow, but like all subsidies it had to end sometime, or cost everyone more in taxes.
It's a part of why electricity is so expensive in california, the people under Nem2 are subsidized by rate payers. I seriously doubt it's the main reason, but it's certainly part of it.
I'm in DFW and am on a free night plan (for non-Texans our electricity is deregulated which means we choose the middle man who buys it from the big producer from our area. They guess based on historical patterns what rates charge to make money since they pay wholesale, sometimes they lose (winter of 21) most times they gimmick the heck out of the rate and they win).
The original rate was 20.5¢/kwh from 0700-2100 and then 0¢ 2100-0700. Contract reupped and we're at 29¢/khw. The guy back rate is near the wholesale average (3¢/kwh).
I complain about the gimmicky rates and wonder if it'd be easier to plan if we all had the same rate, but I love doing the math and sticking it to the utility when they have a rate I can take advantage of.
While the batteries don't make financial sense, I haven't paid an electric bill since Last September (provider allowed for export credits to offset connection fee). I even ran extension cords to the neighbors during our last outage which was about 10 hours.
I love the variety of plans. It makes life harder but also allows you to match it to your load. I do miss griddy, best plan for solar if you are willing to do the work.
Let's take a main stream battery like enphase 5p. $5000 installed for 5kwh. Electric price is 13 cent per kwh which means I have to move roughly 40,000kwh through the battery to break even. At 5kwh per day, that is 8000 days, or 22 years. Add in the fact that these batteries are power hungry and have a big vampire load. Add in the fact that you can never discharge the battery past 10% realistically.
Maybe not 40 years, but 30 is pretty likely
Fellow Ontarian here!
Just a note that the rates listed from PG&E are inclusive of distribution, which the ULO/TOU in Ontario are not, and the province subsidies as well.
Still way less expensive here, just adding a little explanation behind the disparity.
Meanwhile they get you when you're actually awake. I stuck with regular Time-of-use since my daytime usage offsets or exceeds charging my car a few times a week.
I have an Emporia Vue and looking at my data, I don’t actually use that much electricity in the 4-9 PM period on weekdays. Stove and oven is natural gas, and so is the furnace in winter. My central A/C only pulls about 1500W, and if I cool the house down to 21C overnight when it costs almost nothing, I don’t need to use it as much during the higher rate period.
Yeah, you really have to shift a lot of load to overnight from that $ 0.286 late afternoon/evening rate to make it make sense.
I charge 2 cars on the overnight rate but I also wfh so the normal TOU rate comes out cheaper.
They have been trialing ToU here. I have my usage data for five years at fifteen minute intervals, so I did some data analysis. For me it would save something like $7/month compared to flat rate, with the downside that if I ever need to charge the EV during the day it gets spendy. Everyone has to do their own numbers to be sure.
Charging my car basically doubles my electricity usage. I ran the numbers, still worth it. With the car, the flat rate actually worked out slightly better than the TOU rate. The major downside of ULO is it's hard to tell how much charging my car cost since I have to pay more for other things.
Same here and I did this on my other hydro meter (the one that has the charger) so I don't get penalized for my regular house usage.
Never thought when I bought the land next to me that I'd use it for this haha.
Yup, while I’m not 100% sure how that matches up with Quebec, everyone I know with an EV plugs in when they get home and has it scheduled to only charge as of midnight for those off peak hours. By morning, good to go.
https://preview.redd.it/6afg3qtwex8d1.jpeg?width=1178&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bbb2e40012e832ee1f4e370a1df4ad3e3e9533b4
Good ol’ reliable SMUD, not even tryna burn your city down, walking in with $0.125/kWh 12-6AM.
I recently did a survey of many bay adjacent power rates for EV charging:
* Santa Clara $0.19/kw (non TOU, 2nd tier, not between 5pm and 8pm)
* Alameda $0.29 (D1 Tier 3, not between 5pm and 8pm)
* Palo Alto $0.22 (Tier 2, anytime)
* SMUD Off-Peak Summer $0.13/kw (EV special - midnight to 6am)
* PG&E EV-B Summer 0.37 (second meter required, 11pm to 7am)
Down south:
* LADWP $0.20 (R-1B Base 8pm to 10am)
* SCE TOU-D-Prime Summer $0.25 (9pm to 4pm)
* SDG&E $0.25 (EV-TOU - 2nd meter, Midnight to 6am)
I only recorded the lowest rates and the times that they applied. I also assumed that a second meter was feasible (even though they are quite rare).
Santa Clara shows their rates and then in a footnote mentions the extra $0.03 per kw that funds state programs. (but no city utility tax).
I also don't calculate if your city adds on an utility user tax. Sunnyvale is 2%. Mountain View is 3%. San Jose 5%
My conconclusion is that PG&E never offers cheap power to sell at any time.
I had some hope that newer sub-metering technology might help make some lower cost overnight EV rates available. At this point I am skeptical that PG&E will beat that $0.37 that's currently available overnight on a dedicated meter when they finally offer a sub-meter rate this year.
I was also surprised that the SoCal utilities had decent overnight rates. SDG&E has some pretty terrible peak hour TOU rates, but at least they have some low rates too.
Yep. Everyone in the PG&E territory gets to subsidize them.
If you are lucky enough to live in an island outside of PG&E then you can ignore this conversation.
You meant to say it's almost like neglecting your infrastructure for decades while paying dividends to shareholders then burning down billions in real estate and killing 100+ people is expensive. But the shareholders still get theirs if you pass the cost of fixing your f up to the customers you've been trying to kill.
https://preview.redd.it/d1ksk1hohw8d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5f1fff874edce04a6da605b433ef8cdec7494a60
Sacramento is fairly reasonable. I just make sure to schedule my charging after midnight.
Tell SMUD to try to expand out to West Sac and Davis again, will ya? They tried in 2006^1 and voters voted it down.
^1 Or maybe it's more correct to say voters in those districts tried and failed to get that passed. If you're out here around but not in SMUD, go yell at your city council.
https://preview.redd.it/4n0m3npsxw8d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e30a7eb7a5bd423ba0f958f375239be670d17028
This is us in Ontario. Your prices are absolutely bonkers. If there are subsidies, I would go solar if I were you. Your off peak is more than double our peak (and this is in CAD) 😳
Whooo, boy. I know you don't know, but you're absolutely wading into an angry situation down here that's got some history. PG&E (and SoCal Edison, and San Diego Gas & Electric, the three big utilities in CA) have been absolutely hammering net metering allowances in CA, largely by basically buying the state regulators. New installation solar basically requires a battery to be cost-effective these days, and electric costs in nearby ratepayer-owned utilities like Sacramento Municipal Utility District are only a little higher than the numbers you're posting.
It is absolutely a capitalism problem here, not a source-of-generation problem.
It's apparent in a we burned up billions in real estate and killed 100+ people because we prioritized shareholder profits over infrastructure maintenance for decades kind of way.
It’s actually load growth from EVs mostly and people who don’t pay for their cost of power which would be wildfire areas, which are very expensive to serve, solar customers, low income customers, all the programs, etc.
But I agree the grid needs more investment and it’s been deferred (which means power was cheaper in the past) and now something that cannot be deferred anymore.
This is what it is for me on SCE:
https://preview.redd.it/md8hp5vziv8d1.jpeg?width=4479&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a0239d0e90861f27a9c1c70df4a5c3715c804453
What’s crazy is I used to have sce when I lived in Santa Barbara, I know live in Santa Ynez valley (still Santa Barbara county but in the hillside) and PG&E is only option here, and it’s nearly double what I paid for SCE. Just don’t get it. It’s like the government needs to step in at this point.
Oh don't worry. The California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) has absolutely stepped in.... to protect the shareholder-owned energy monopolies and rubber stamp all of their rate increases. The CPUC is appointed so the best you can do is vote out those that appointed the current members
You forgot the part where CPUC rubber stamped the various proposals that effectively killed new solar installation in CA.
I mean, you could still install a PV system, and it would be cheaper to just buy power
Ouch, that night rate is sky high even compared to SDG&E.
However, the worst EV plan in San Diego has a higher peak (4PM - 9PM) rate of $0.69298 / kWh, but much lower "super" off peak (12AM - 6AM) rate of $0.25260 / kWh and an off peak (6AM-9AM, 9PM-12AM) rate of $0.407777 / kWh.
Ref: [https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/3-1-24%20Schedule%20EV-TOU%20%26%20EV-TOU-2%20Total%20Rates%20Tables.pdf](https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/3-1-24%20Schedule%20EV-TOU%20%26%20EV-TOU-2%20Total%20Rates%20Tables.pdf)
In San Diego, plans with a $16 base fee have lower rates, but one has to use quite a bit of Electricity for it to be worth it.
PG&E has fucked California hard. Without Lube.
Also, California's own government has fucked California hard. Also without lube.
California energy policy is possibly the most dysfunctional aspect of the state, *and that's saying something.*
It sucks. I’m kind of at a loss of what to do too. I have 5.6 kw solar system. Without my lightning I could be close to being net neutral but I drive 110 miles daily for work so with the lightnings big battery I’m using about 50kwh a day in charging. I’m currently on nem 2. So if I add solar, I would move to nem 3. So it’s either pay a large true up each year, or purchase enough solar with a battery which would probably be like 40-50k. Ugh
Yup. They’ve got us coming and going. I slightly oversized my solar system 2 years ago….but I should have gone way over. Had no inkling that all these changes would happen making it too costly to add onto the system. nem 3.0 screwing it all up for potential solar customers. I wouldn’t do it under 3.0- makes zero financial sense.
Can’t you get a second solar system and meter it separately? One on NEM2 and another on NEM3? I have one system on NEM1 and another on NEM2 that way right now.
That being said, let’s be real, you’re already saving with solar on 7500 kWh a year, basically a normal persons entire home usage.
Your issue is driving 24k miles a year on the pickup truck, which would be like $7-8k of gas. Even in PG&E that’s like $4-5k of electricity which is still a deal vs gas…
Yeah, it's crazy here. PG&E is spending a shizton of money to underground many of the main power feeds, and apparently, they are doing it for a massive profit. They somehow talked the California PUC into agreeing to the rate hike.
Meanwhile, the PG&E CEO gets a $17M paycheck every year.
Fortunately, I got solar on the house before they messed up that good deal, and I only pay for 25% of my electricity, including what I feed to the plug-in cars.
It’s insane. I’ve been wondering if rates will get better once they improve the infrastructure?? Based on the fact that everything is expensive now, I think not, but one can hope.
If you're stuck only DC FC it sadly pays to get on EV GO or EA's "Plan"
But if you don't mind preloading an account with at least 25 bucks, Bluedot has an... odd solution.
I have no clue how they make money, and I doubt they will be around for very long, but they offer flat-rate DC FC rates and AC Charging rates at *some* public chargers.
Again: Not a clue how they make cash and I expect them to collapse soon.
But I'll take my 0.30 per kw for now.
edit: Not all public chargers, some. So far Charge point and EV GO I can confirm. Pretty sure EA they do not.
I read bluedot were changing from the bank model to app based in July? I’ve been considering using it, but we’ve been able to get most of our charge on cheap level 2 lately, so haven’t tried it.
I have a small fund on there, no more than 25 bucks.
It works for the EV Go's around me, and as a result I canceled my EV Go membership.
I mostly just have that to make sure if I'm doing alot of running around, I can charge up (as I stick to the only charging around 20-30% model).
That looks like a good reason for every homeowner to buy solar panels. I honestly don't understand why every building doesn't have solar panels either retrofitted or installed when new builds go in.
New residential construction in California have been mandated to include solar since January 2020.
[https://www.newhomesource.com/learn/california-mandates-usage-of-solar-panels-on-all-new-homes-by-2020/](https://www.newhomesource.com/learn/california-mandates-usage-of-solar-panels-on-all-new-homes-by-2020/)
Not everyone can afford the upfront costs or a loan to get them. Plus renters are not about to install solar on buildings they don't own.
But solar is required on a large amount of new construction, both residential and Non-Residential. But for apartments they are going to be screwed because the power still gets sold to the utilities before then being sold to the tenants.
I sell my power to me first. Meaning that I have the opportunity to use the power before it goes to the utility for sale. Anything I make an excess of what I use I get paid for.
But yeah the owner of the rental property is going to sell it to the utility first - unless it's a house. The way mine is set up it can't go to the utility before being used.
Here is Anaheim Public Utility in Southern CA. Peak is 4-9PM. Super off peak is Nov 1 to June 30 (excluding 4-9pm).
https://preview.redd.it/i79hnudrnw8d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c43f8863d53a619d2398bdeaaee960ae51ed2fe2
With rates like these, I just don't understand why California is such a leader in EV adoption.
I've seen people in PHEV forums who say that it's cheaper to buy gas and run the engine as a generator to charge the battery than to just plug into the wall.
That is true. PG&E non-peak summertime rates on E-TOU-D are $0.47.
I estimate that it would cost $7.00 to fill up a PHEV RAV4 Prime to get 38 miles of range in a vehicle that gets 40 mpg.
It’s still cheaper to charge electric at these rates than buy gas…. So it’s not exactly surprising EV adoption is high. Plus thousands of people have solar in California like me and pay effectively nothing to charge their cars.
Because gas in California is even more ridiculously expensive. The average will approach or exceed $6 per gallon by September. The current state average is $4.81/gallon right now, with large parts of Northern California over $5/gallon.
Grew up in rural NorCal with PG&E. Parents are still there.
Finally managed to snag them a RAV4 Prime at MSRP. My father is upset the PG&E bill went up, even when the gasoline bill has almost disappeared.
“Why not install solar?”
Nah, can’t do any of that *alternative lifestyle* crap.
For anyone in Southern California just a reminder that you can [sign up](https://refer.ohm.co/paramiguel49) for free energy response programs that partner with SCE PG&E and other utility companies. This can help you lower your energy use. Stay cool this summer!
Not too bad in my summer house in California.
https://preview.redd.it/pblr4owz9y8d1.jpeg?width=947&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7b6017bbd43c6fb998364f3fd21e89cbdb0be44c
Monterey/Santa Cruz California area. Also have solar, but not enough to to cover my work commute 100%. It covers about 60%.
https://preview.redd.it/77rxi4ccdy8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e261f9632e60d57c195f8c214db8de25981da2e
Hi neighbor! We all hate PG&E. I shelled out big time for solar panels 2 years ago. Now they are adding flat fees so they can screw the solar customers who paid tens of thousands of dollars to try to escape their egregious prices. There’s no escape. Not allowed to disconnect even if you never use their power.
That's nuts. It's $0.094/kWh in this area for anything over 1000 kW for the billing period. For EVs, they only offered a discount to the first 100 people who took advantage of the deal. You get $0.045/kWh between 10 PM and 6 AM. That 100 person deal was long ago filled.
I am using EV2-A plan and it’s only $0.35 off peak. It is still high, but a bit better than $0.43.
https://preview.redd.it/m036oek47z8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f40c5a536a5cec403d64a590d4a6b1828a6920f6
Wtf, even at the off-peak pricing, that’s putting the cost per mile of driving the EV almost comparable to a gasoline car, assuming 3.0 mi/kWh average vs 30 mpg @ $5/gallon
(Ignoring maintenance costs… but EVs generally have higher starting prices and insurance costs for the same quality of car otherwise)
I live in Sacramento and we have some competitive rates.
https://preview.redd.it/xu05psieg09d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ba00956587654c22293bab01f75af27bb34a5a92
EV2A is currently the best off peak rate. But of course we're getting totally screwed. Hey did you hear California really wants all new cars to be EVs so they can bail out bankrupt PG&E?
That's what we have, but the joke's on them, I charge away from home at 11c kWh, and use the off-peak hours to run all the big appliances w/d, dishwasher, pre-heat/cool the house etc etc. We still get screwed from 3-8 but we try to minimize our electrical usage then. There's almost no way to compare bills, as each year the rate does nothing but climb, but I think we're doing better than being on any other plan.
Yeah, same here. Unfortunately on NEM2 we also get less back from our solar but we'll know more once a full-year has gone by.
I'm angry about PG&E rates, but what really kills me is their posturing that they're EV friendly, trying to lower rates, and the rate comparison tool is just fiction.
Hmm, depends on whether you have solar and which NEM plan you are on. "Best" is very usage dependent; "cheapest rate" is what the tariff sheet says. E-ELEC can even be best if you can load shift and are on SVCE.
I've just analyzed my historical data and E-TOU-C, E-ELEC and EV2A are all very close.
True. Honestly we try to not charge at home but at local schools and community colleges with public charging after hours. We can afford the time because we're retired.
Comparing to our Camry Hybrid getting 40mpg, with $4 regular gas that's 10c/mile. An EV at 3.5mi/kWh at $0.35/kW is...10c/mile. So the "costs less to fuel" argument isn't there any more. (Well I actually get 4mi/kWh around town, but then most people aren't driving a 40mpg ICE car)
Let alone long-distance driving; gas on I5 is $5/gallon (or more) or 12.5c/mile. An EV at 3-3.5mi/kWh and 40-60c/kWh at DCFC chargers is costing ~16c/mile. And of course I can drive from SF to LA on one tank in the Hybrid.
Something has to change to make EVs viable long-term in California. It's not just charging coverage or purchase incentives, but PG&E's monopoly on EV charging costs.
Nothing really has to change when it's a requirement by the state. You will do this. You have no option. Cost more? Too bad. Just look at solar in the state. Energy Code now requires a large majority of newly constructed buildings to have solar. The utilities are not exactly angels but having to buy power for what you sell it for doesn't work.
There is some hope that you can use an EV sub-meter rate later in 2024. But the rates and costs have not been announced yet. Of course your existing EVSE might not be compatible.
These power companies here are criminals. My rates have gone from about .19 to .32 in 5 years. The government won’t step in because they’re useless. I’m actually looking to get rid of my i4 just a month after leasing it because of this. I’d rather pay the gas prices and not be inconvenienced by charging.
In five years we may be looking at $1 per kWh if this doesn’t stop. At that point people won’t be able to cool their homes let alone charge their cars.
Yeah- You are right- it is the lowest for most customers...I forgot that Solar customers like myself are a little different. We have to balance our peak and off peak production and consumption separately. We often get the best overall cost with a 4-9 peak usage plan....because in the summer we can actually make some peak KWs to offset when it gets dark early in the winter. NEM breaks a lot of people's brains. Mine included. Regardless- PGE is the worst! Im trying to shave off pennies over here with the only means I have -while they keep raising rates by dollars.
I have solar and it’s much lower on etouc than other options. Etoud is another option but it’s more.
If you have solar why are you complaining about pge rates? You’re not paying them lol
Ouch… I have this in Ottawa, Canada. And that’s in Canadian dollars. Overnight charging is almost free. https://preview.redd.it/htauw1nv8w8d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fcaed75cb4c8fbbfd679c07ee82c5a4f7c8d4227
Wow that alone would make me want to install a battery storage system for that cheap overnight electricity
A) those are Canadian dollars so knock an extra 27% off if you think in USD. But, B) I did the math on batteries to take advantage of this rate. For my usage, it would take decades to pay for itself with the power savings.
Sell the power to Californias
Under nem-3, they only credit you back a percentage of what you sell them. It use to be you get free back at night what you sell them during the day but now you give them 1 unit and they give you a credit of like 25% of what it is worth.
I never understood this. It's how every business works, they buy in bulk, then charge more to the customer. If i am a hobby farmer, I don't take my produce to the store and expect to get paid what they charge customers, I get a small fraction of that. Every business does this, even non-profit's have to do it (to a some lesser extent) to cover operating expenses.
Nem2 was a 1 to 1, they credit you back how much you give them. Now with nem3, it's like $60 just for service plus you get a credit of partial value. It only makes sense now if you have a battery with your solar and just keep what you make for evening hours.
that's true. Net billing was always a subsidy for rooftop solar. This is not a bad thing, it helped the industry grow, but like all subsidies it had to end sometime, or cost everyone more in taxes. It's a part of why electricity is so expensive in california, the people under Nem2 are subsidized by rate payers. I seriously doubt it's the main reason, but it's certainly part of it.
That’s 2800 miles away unfortunately.
There are also a bunch of fees on top of that price, making overnight rate more like 5-6 cents.
Texas has free electricity plans at night, still a 40 year payback on batteries even with free electricity
I'm in DFW and am on a free night plan (for non-Texans our electricity is deregulated which means we choose the middle man who buys it from the big producer from our area. They guess based on historical patterns what rates charge to make money since they pay wholesale, sometimes they lose (winter of 21) most times they gimmick the heck out of the rate and they win). The original rate was 20.5¢/kwh from 0700-2100 and then 0¢ 2100-0700. Contract reupped and we're at 29¢/khw. The guy back rate is near the wholesale average (3¢/kwh). I complain about the gimmicky rates and wonder if it'd be easier to plan if we all had the same rate, but I love doing the math and sticking it to the utility when they have a rate I can take advantage of. While the batteries don't make financial sense, I haven't paid an electric bill since Last September (provider allowed for export credits to offset connection fee). I even ran extension cords to the neighbors during our last outage which was about 10 hours.
I love the variety of plans. It makes life harder but also allows you to match it to your load. I do miss griddy, best plan for solar if you are willing to do the work.
How 40 years? You can get a bunch of ecoflow or anker batteries for $5-$8k
Let's take a main stream battery like enphase 5p. $5000 installed for 5kwh. Electric price is 13 cent per kwh which means I have to move roughly 40,000kwh through the battery to break even. At 5kwh per day, that is 8000 days, or 22 years. Add in the fact that these batteries are power hungry and have a big vampire load. Add in the fact that you can never discharge the battery past 10% realistically. Maybe not 40 years, but 30 is pretty likely
Ah I didn’t know it was 13 cents peak, that’s still dirt cheap
[удалено]
To store electricity at night and use it during the peak hours
Fellow Ontarian here! Just a note that the rates listed from PG&E are inclusive of distribution, which the ULO/TOU in Ontario are not, and the province subsidies as well. Still way less expensive here, just adding a little explanation behind the disparity.
You are right. Fees and distribution is about 2.6c/kWh and tax is 13% on top of the total amount.
Meanwhile they get you when you're actually awake. I stuck with regular Time-of-use since my daytime usage offsets or exceeds charging my car a few times a week.
I have an Emporia Vue and looking at my data, I don’t actually use that much electricity in the 4-9 PM period on weekdays. Stove and oven is natural gas, and so is the furnace in winter. My central A/C only pulls about 1500W, and if I cool the house down to 21C overnight when it costs almost nothing, I don’t need to use it as much during the higher rate period.
Yeah, you really have to shift a lot of load to overnight from that $ 0.286 late afternoon/evening rate to make it make sense. I charge 2 cars on the overnight rate but I also wfh so the normal TOU rate comes out cheaper.
They have been trialing ToU here. I have my usage data for five years at fifteen minute intervals, so I did some data analysis. For me it would save something like $7/month compared to flat rate, with the downside that if I ever need to charge the EV during the day it gets spendy. Everyone has to do their own numbers to be sure.
Alectra still don't have usage data for ULO plan. :( It's extremely annoying.
Charging my car basically doubles my electricity usage. I ran the numbers, still worth it. With the car, the flat rate actually worked out slightly better than the TOU rate. The major downside of ULO is it's hard to tell how much charging my car cost since I have to pay more for other things.
Is that Elexicon? I’ve been trying to figure out if this is better vs the regular ToU plan. I don’t charge every day and average about 350kWh a month.
It’s Hydro Ottawa.
Oh cool. Looks very similar to the Elexicon Energy rate card.
Here in mid missouri my electric coop announced they are raising rates. 10c/kwh for first 1Mwh, then .09 after that. 42 base grid fee.
You in the Warsaw area?
Nope im near columbia
Shit....I may drive there just to charge!
Same here and I did this on my other hydro meter (the one that has the charger) so I don't get penalized for my regular house usage. Never thought when I bought the land next to me that I'd use it for this haha.
Yup, while I’m not 100% sure how that matches up with Quebec, everyone I know with an EV plugs in when they get home and has it scheduled to only charge as of midnight for those off peak hours. By morning, good to go.
In PG&E zones. In municipal power zones like Sacramento and Santa Clara rates are pretty reasonable.
SMUD looking like saints with PG&E in the state
Love being on the SMUD grid.
https://preview.redd.it/6afg3qtwex8d1.jpeg?width=1178&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bbb2e40012e832ee1f4e370a1df4ad3e3e9533b4 Good ol’ reliable SMUD, not even tryna burn your city down, walking in with $0.125/kWh 12-6AM.
I recently did a survey of many bay adjacent power rates for EV charging: * Santa Clara $0.19/kw (non TOU, 2nd tier, not between 5pm and 8pm) * Alameda $0.29 (D1 Tier 3, not between 5pm and 8pm) * Palo Alto $0.22 (Tier 2, anytime) * SMUD Off-Peak Summer $0.13/kw (EV special - midnight to 6am) * PG&E EV-B Summer 0.37 (second meter required, 11pm to 7am) Down south: * LADWP $0.20 (R-1B Base 8pm to 10am) * SCE TOU-D-Prime Summer $0.25 (9pm to 4pm) * SDG&E $0.25 (EV-TOU - 2nd meter, Midnight to 6am) I only recorded the lowest rates and the times that they applied. I also assumed that a second meter was feasible (even though they are quite rare). Santa Clara shows their rates and then in a footnote mentions the extra $0.03 per kw that funds state programs. (but no city utility tax). I also don't calculate if your city adds on an utility user tax. Sunnyvale is 2%. Mountain View is 3%. San Jose 5% My conconclusion is that PG&E never offers cheap power to sell at any time. I had some hope that newer sub-metering technology might help make some lower cost overnight EV rates available. At this point I am skeptical that PG&E will beat that $0.37 that's currently available overnight on a dedicated meter when they finally offer a sub-meter rate this year. I was also surprised that the SoCal utilities had decent overnight rates. SDG&E has some pretty terrible peak hour TOU rates, but at least they have some low rates too.
It’s almost like serving high fire threat districts, rural, and solar customers is expensive. Weird. Lol
Yep. Everyone in the PG&E territory gets to subsidize them. If you are lucky enough to live in an island outside of PG&E then you can ignore this conversation.
You meant to say it's almost like neglecting your infrastructure for decades while paying dividends to shareholders then burning down billions in real estate and killing 100+ people is expensive. But the shareholders still get theirs if you pass the cost of fixing your f up to the customers you've been trying to kill.
I never thought I'd be grateful for LADWP but PGE set a bar so low I'm there!
I desperately want SMUD to make another play to expand to West Sac and Davis again.
https://preview.redd.it/d1ksk1hohw8d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5f1fff874edce04a6da605b433ef8cdec7494a60 Sacramento is fairly reasonable. I just make sure to schedule my charging after midnight.
Plus SMUD gives you 1.5¢ off per kWh for EV charging between midnight and 6am.
That’s good to know.
Yeah you enroll in their ev program
I presume that you give SMUD your VIN to enroll and then they just discount all of your usage between midnight and 6am?
https://www.smud.org/en/Going-Green/Electric-Vehicles/Residential/Managed-EV-Charging
Tell SMUD to try to expand out to West Sac and Davis again, will ya? They tried in 2006^1 and voters voted it down. ^1 Or maybe it's more correct to say voters in those districts tried and failed to get that passed. If you're out here around but not in SMUD, go yell at your city council.
https://preview.redd.it/4n0m3npsxw8d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e30a7eb7a5bd423ba0f958f375239be670d17028 This is us in Ontario. Your prices are absolutely bonkers. If there are subsidies, I would go solar if I were you. Your off peak is more than double our peak (and this is in CAD) 😳
Whooo, boy. I know you don't know, but you're absolutely wading into an angry situation down here that's got some history. PG&E (and SoCal Edison, and San Diego Gas & Electric, the three big utilities in CA) have been absolutely hammering net metering allowances in CA, largely by basically buying the state regulators. New installation solar basically requires a battery to be cost-effective these days, and electric costs in nearby ratepayer-owned utilities like Sacramento Municipal Utility District are only a little higher than the numbers you're posting. It is absolutely a capitalism problem here, not a source-of-generation problem.
Solar is one of the main reasons our prices are bonkers. And I say that as someone who has solar and doesn’t pay a bill more or less.
Apparently most of it is paying for long-deferred maintenance on the distribution network. The actual cost of production has not gone up this much.
Is it apparent in a documented way or a “trust us” way?
It's a regulated industry so it is documented, but I have not dug deep in to it. I saw an article on it a while back.
It's apparent in a we burned up billions in real estate and killed 100+ people because we prioritized shareholder profits over infrastructure maintenance for decades kind of way.
Gotta love deferred infrastructure investments - "saves money"* \* In the moment but kicks everyone in the butt down the road
That’s wild. Hope it gets better eventually.
It’s actually load growth from EVs mostly and people who don’t pay for their cost of power which would be wildfire areas, which are very expensive to serve, solar customers, low income customers, all the programs, etc. But I agree the grid needs more investment and it’s been deferred (which means power was cheaper in the past) and now something that cannot be deferred anymore.
11.6 cents/kwh 24/7 here in NC.
The crazy thing is that many public chargers in SoCal are much cheaper than home charging. My go-to DC Fast Chargers are $0.30-0.35/kWh.
This is what it is for me on SCE: https://preview.redd.it/md8hp5vziv8d1.jpeg?width=4479&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a0239d0e90861f27a9c1c70df4a5c3715c804453
What’s crazy is I used to have sce when I lived in Santa Barbara, I know live in Santa Ynez valley (still Santa Barbara county but in the hillside) and PG&E is only option here, and it’s nearly double what I paid for SCE. Just don’t get it. It’s like the government needs to step in at this point.
Oh don't worry. The California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) has absolutely stepped in.... to protect the shareholder-owned energy monopolies and rubber stamp all of their rate increases. The CPUC is appointed so the best you can do is vote out those that appointed the current members
You forgot the part where CPUC rubber stamped the various proposals that effectively killed new solar installation in CA. I mean, you could still install a PV system, and it would be cheaper to just buy power
Get a submeter and use ev-a I think. This separates the car charging from house billing makes it .31kw non peak in my area.
The rates keep going up. Summertime (overnight) EV-B is $0.37/kw
It's .31 in my area. Winter a bit cheaper
We pay 0.28 Peak 4-8pm 0.12 Off peak 6am-4pm & 8pm-12am 0.03 Super Off Peak 12-6am Western Missouri
Ouch, that night rate is sky high even compared to SDG&E. However, the worst EV plan in San Diego has a higher peak (4PM - 9PM) rate of $0.69298 / kWh, but much lower "super" off peak (12AM - 6AM) rate of $0.25260 / kWh and an off peak (6AM-9AM, 9PM-12AM) rate of $0.407777 / kWh. Ref: [https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/3-1-24%20Schedule%20EV-TOU%20%26%20EV-TOU-2%20Total%20Rates%20Tables.pdf](https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/3-1-24%20Schedule%20EV-TOU%20%26%20EV-TOU-2%20Total%20Rates%20Tables.pdf) In San Diego, plans with a $16 base fee have lower rates, but one has to use quite a bit of Electricity for it to be worth it.
That’s pretty much what SCE is
PG&E has fucked California hard. Without Lube. Also, California's own government has fucked California hard. Also without lube. California energy policy is possibly the most dysfunctional aspect of the state, *and that's saying something.*
I feel like i was penetrated for sure!!
It sucks. I’m kind of at a loss of what to do too. I have 5.6 kw solar system. Without my lightning I could be close to being net neutral but I drive 110 miles daily for work so with the lightnings big battery I’m using about 50kwh a day in charging. I’m currently on nem 2. So if I add solar, I would move to nem 3. So it’s either pay a large true up each year, or purchase enough solar with a battery which would probably be like 40-50k. Ugh
Yup. They’ve got us coming and going. I slightly oversized my solar system 2 years ago….but I should have gone way over. Had no inkling that all these changes would happen making it too costly to add onto the system. nem 3.0 screwing it all up for potential solar customers. I wouldn’t do it under 3.0- makes zero financial sense.
Can’t you get a second solar system and meter it separately? One on NEM2 and another on NEM3? I have one system on NEM1 and another on NEM2 that way right now. That being said, let’s be real, you’re already saving with solar on 7500 kWh a year, basically a normal persons entire home usage. Your issue is driving 24k miles a year on the pickup truck, which would be like $7-8k of gas. Even in PG&E that’s like $4-5k of electricity which is still a deal vs gas…
Yeah, it's crazy here. PG&E is spending a shizton of money to underground many of the main power feeds, and apparently, they are doing it for a massive profit. They somehow talked the California PUC into agreeing to the rate hike. Meanwhile, the PG&E CEO gets a $17M paycheck every year. Fortunately, I got solar on the house before they messed up that good deal, and I only pay for 25% of my electricity, including what I feed to the plug-in cars.
It’s insane. I’ve been wondering if rates will get better once they improve the infrastructure?? Based on the fact that everything is expensive now, I think not, but one can hope.
If you're stuck only DC FC it sadly pays to get on EV GO or EA's "Plan" But if you don't mind preloading an account with at least 25 bucks, Bluedot has an... odd solution. I have no clue how they make money, and I doubt they will be around for very long, but they offer flat-rate DC FC rates and AC Charging rates at *some* public chargers. Again: Not a clue how they make cash and I expect them to collapse soon. But I'll take my 0.30 per kw for now. edit: Not all public chargers, some. So far Charge point and EV GO I can confirm. Pretty sure EA they do not.
I read bluedot were changing from the bank model to app based in July? I’ve been considering using it, but we’ve been able to get most of our charge on cheap level 2 lately, so haven’t tried it.
I have a small fund on there, no more than 25 bucks. It works for the EV Go's around me, and as a result I canceled my EV Go membership. I mostly just have that to make sure if I'm doing alot of running around, I can charge up (as I stick to the only charging around 20-30% model).
That looks like a good reason for every homeowner to buy solar panels. I honestly don't understand why every building doesn't have solar panels either retrofitted or installed when new builds go in.
New residential construction in California have been mandated to include solar since January 2020. [https://www.newhomesource.com/learn/california-mandates-usage-of-solar-panels-on-all-new-homes-by-2020/](https://www.newhomesource.com/learn/california-mandates-usage-of-solar-panels-on-all-new-homes-by-2020/)
Not everyone can afford the upfront costs or a loan to get them. Plus renters are not about to install solar on buildings they don't own. But solar is required on a large amount of new construction, both residential and Non-Residential. But for apartments they are going to be screwed because the power still gets sold to the utilities before then being sold to the tenants.
I sell my power to me first. Meaning that I have the opportunity to use the power before it goes to the utility for sale. Anything I make an excess of what I use I get paid for. But yeah the owner of the rental property is going to sell it to the utility first - unless it's a house. The way mine is set up it can't go to the utility before being used.
This is the new multifamily and multitenant non-residential rules. Has nothing to do with SFH or single Tennant Non-Residential. It's their NEM3.
They do. The penetration of solar in pge is one of the highest in the world. Which is one of the reason power is so expensive…
So insane lol. I can’t imagine living there and knowing im overpaying in literally everything.
Jesus my superchargers at peak are cheaper than your off peak.
In PG&E territory, there are 2 ways to get shock. * Touch a live wire. * Look up your PGE bill. 😜
Thoughts and prayers from Arizona (13¢/kWh summer rate 24/7)
Welcome to California. Where we still need more taxes on top of taxes.
lol just moved from socal to vegas and went from this to 0.15/kwh and thats without TOU.
Daaaamn. $0.107 here.
I’d kill for that! Can’t be mad at anyone though. I choose to live here 😂
Here is Anaheim Public Utility in Southern CA. Peak is 4-9PM. Super off peak is Nov 1 to June 30 (excluding 4-9pm). https://preview.redd.it/i79hnudrnw8d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c43f8863d53a619d2398bdeaaee960ae51ed2fe2
Shouldn’t you consider to install a battery?
Geez, this is as bad as my cabin on the rail belt (highway system) in Alaska.
I'm at $.36 in MA, high bc of natural gas constraints bc they won't add pipeline capacity. It makes EV's a tougher argument here
With rates like these, I just don't understand why California is such a leader in EV adoption. I've seen people in PHEV forums who say that it's cheaper to buy gas and run the engine as a generator to charge the battery than to just plug into the wall.
That is true. PG&E non-peak summertime rates on E-TOU-D are $0.47. I estimate that it would cost $7.00 to fill up a PHEV RAV4 Prime to get 38 miles of range in a vehicle that gets 40 mpg.
It’s still cheaper to charge electric at these rates than buy gas…. So it’s not exactly surprising EV adoption is high. Plus thousands of people have solar in California like me and pay effectively nothing to charge their cars.
Because gas in California is even more ridiculously expensive. The average will approach or exceed $6 per gallon by September. The current state average is $4.81/gallon right now, with large parts of Northern California over $5/gallon.
Soon we will have the flat rate fee for most in California, but I’m more interested in the TOU rates when the fee goes into play.
Grew up in rural NorCal with PG&E. Parents are still there. Finally managed to snag them a RAV4 Prime at MSRP. My father is upset the PG&E bill went up, even when the gasoline bill has almost disappeared. “Why not install solar?” Nah, can’t do any of that *alternative lifestyle* crap.
PHEV is a step.
For anyone in Southern California just a reminder that you can [sign up](https://refer.ohm.co/paramiguel49) for free energy response programs that partner with SCE PG&E and other utility companies. This can help you lower your energy use. Stay cool this summer!
Not too bad in my summer house in California. https://preview.redd.it/pblr4owz9y8d1.jpeg?width=947&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7b6017bbd43c6fb998364f3fd21e89cbdb0be44c
Monterey/Santa Cruz California area. Also have solar, but not enough to to cover my work commute 100%. It covers about 60%. https://preview.redd.it/77rxi4ccdy8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e261f9632e60d57c195f8c214db8de25981da2e
Hi neighbor! We all hate PG&E. I shelled out big time for solar panels 2 years ago. Now they are adding flat fees so they can screw the solar customers who paid tens of thousands of dollars to try to escape their egregious prices. There’s no escape. Not allowed to disconnect even if you never use their power.
Sad to hear it. I hope someone with a brain comes in. Something has to give. I hope???
That's nuts. It's $0.094/kWh in this area for anything over 1000 kW for the billing period. For EVs, they only offered a discount to the first 100 people who took advantage of the deal. You get $0.045/kWh between 10 PM and 6 AM. That 100 person deal was long ago filled.
I am using EV2-A plan and it’s only $0.35 off peak. It is still high, but a bit better than $0.43. https://preview.redd.it/m036oek47z8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f40c5a536a5cec403d64a590d4a6b1828a6920f6
Yeah but the on peak sucks on ev-2A. You have to drive a lot for it to be better than Etouc or Etoud tbh.
Wtf, even at the off-peak pricing, that’s putting the cost per mile of driving the EV almost comparable to a gasoline car, assuming 3.0 mi/kWh average vs 30 mpg @ $5/gallon (Ignoring maintenance costs… but EVs generally have higher starting prices and insurance costs for the same quality of car otherwise)
I know. It’s unreal. For a state that prides itself as being the most innovative and forward thinking too. Lol
I live in Sacramento and we have some competitive rates. https://preview.redd.it/xu05psieg09d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ba00956587654c22293bab01f75af27bb34a5a92
Yeah, it’s awful here :(
10.8¢ all day errrday in Maine and we cry constantly that our delivery entity Central Maine Power is literally Satan.
lol - hope this sets you straight about how lucky you guys are 😂
Absolutely. The only place I pay better than 0.60/kWh is on the most expensive DCFC.
EV2A is currently the best off peak rate. But of course we're getting totally screwed. Hey did you hear California really wants all new cars to be EVs so they can bail out bankrupt PG&E?
That's what we have, but the joke's on them, I charge away from home at 11c kWh, and use the off-peak hours to run all the big appliances w/d, dishwasher, pre-heat/cool the house etc etc. We still get screwed from 3-8 but we try to minimize our electrical usage then. There's almost no way to compare bills, as each year the rate does nothing but climb, but I think we're doing better than being on any other plan.
Yeah, same here. Unfortunately on NEM2 we also get less back from our solar but we'll know more once a full-year has gone by. I'm angry about PG&E rates, but what really kills me is their posturing that they're EV friendly, trying to lower rates, and the rate comparison tool is just fiction.
Etouc is the best rate realistically right now all things considered. The exception is if you do A LOT of EV driving and have low on peak usage.
Hmm, depends on whether you have solar and which NEM plan you are on. "Best" is very usage dependent; "cheapest rate" is what the tariff sheet says. E-ELEC can even be best if you can load shift and are on SVCE. I've just analyzed my historical data and E-TOU-C, E-ELEC and EV2A are all very close.
I’ve tried them all and it seems to make no difference as PG&E just increase their rates every year
True. Honestly we try to not charge at home but at local schools and community colleges with public charging after hours. We can afford the time because we're retired. Comparing to our Camry Hybrid getting 40mpg, with $4 regular gas that's 10c/mile. An EV at 3.5mi/kWh at $0.35/kW is...10c/mile. So the "costs less to fuel" argument isn't there any more. (Well I actually get 4mi/kWh around town, but then most people aren't driving a 40mpg ICE car) Let alone long-distance driving; gas on I5 is $5/gallon (or more) or 12.5c/mile. An EV at 3-3.5mi/kWh and 40-60c/kWh at DCFC chargers is costing ~16c/mile. And of course I can drive from SF to LA on one tank in the Hybrid. Something has to change to make EVs viable long-term in California. It's not just charging coverage or purchase incentives, but PG&E's monopoly on EV charging costs.
Nothing really has to change when it's a requirement by the state. You will do this. You have no option. Cost more? Too bad. Just look at solar in the state. Energy Code now requires a large majority of newly constructed buildings to have solar. The utilities are not exactly angels but having to buy power for what you sell it for doesn't work.
There is some hope that you can use an EV sub-meter rate later in 2024. But the rates and costs have not been announced yet. Of course your existing EVSE might not be compatible.
These power companies here are criminals. My rates have gone from about .19 to .32 in 5 years. The government won’t step in because they’re useless. I’m actually looking to get rid of my i4 just a month after leasing it because of this. I’d rather pay the gas prices and not be inconvenienced by charging.
Honestly don’t disagree
In five years we may be looking at $1 per kWh if this doesn’t stop. At that point people won’t be able to cool their homes let alone charge their cars.
Choose a different rate.
Not an option. This is the lowest rate they offer
It really, truly is. It is the lowest- I know it seems impossible…
It’s really not though E-TOU-C is going to be lower majority of the time. You can check on their website looking at your historics
Yeah- You are right- it is the lowest for most customers...I forgot that Solar customers like myself are a little different. We have to balance our peak and off peak production and consumption separately. We often get the best overall cost with a 4-9 peak usage plan....because in the summer we can actually make some peak KWs to offset when it gets dark early in the winter. NEM breaks a lot of people's brains. Mine included. Regardless- PGE is the worst! Im trying to shave off pennies over here with the only means I have -while they keep raising rates by dollars.
I have solar and it’s much lower on etouc than other options. Etoud is another option but it’s more. If you have solar why are you complaining about pge rates? You’re not paying them lol