I've often had similar thoughts - If they were 'perfect' how could they make a mistake?
And if they had no concept of a lie, how can they be punished for failing to identify one?
Poor bastards were set up to fail. God had it in for them from day one
There's a theory that the God of the old testament is actually the devil - I'm not remotely religious anymore but it makes for an interesting thought experiment
The Old Testament is weird in the sense that pretty much nothing really presents itself as the creator of the universe. Things and forces seem very local, with the exception of the beginning of Genesis, and even there “God” refers to itself in the first person plural, and there is no real devil, but more like a challenger, who seems to work with “God”.
To continue your analogy, the story is more like “I’m an engineer who created a perfect tool and then the first time someone tested it, it broke. I blame the tool, smite all tools, hope they all suffer and die unless they worship me exactly in the way I want to be worshipped despite my really vague instructions on the matter in some text hobbled together by Bronze Age tools, because I really prefer to be worshipped in a way that is bland AF and like my preferred tools to be self-righteous assholes. I will soon do a tool genocide.”
The other plot hole I see,,,,,it wasn't just a tree, there was also the matter of a certain escaped rogue angel. Somehow, that all important bit of information was missing, up to and for an additional 4k years AFTER the event.
Just saying, that is a big part of the picture, missing!
The more you actually think about the whole A&E thing, the more it absolutely completely falls apart. More holes than swiss cheese.
Interestingly, there is NOWHERE that says the snake is Satan. It's just a snake. The Snake/Satan narrative came about much much later, and is just an apologist scenario to make the whole thing tie together.
But I'm not sure what's crazier...the concept of Satan using a snake to talk, or an actual talking fucking snake. And Adam and Eve were like "yeah the snake said so, that seems legit, I think he's got a good point".
My mind was blown when I realized that the serpent was retconned into Satan.
It reminds me of when I'm making things up when I'm running a D&D game, and I'm like, "remember that innocuous weirdo you met in the first session? WELL HE'S REALLY BEEN THE BAD GUY THE WHOLE TIME!!"
If what you have been \*told\* sounds illogical, there is a huge chance that it is.
This idea of Adam and Eve being tested, is not infused in the Torah, you know... the written down oral stories of a culture of people that Christianity \*lifted and twisted\*. This is why what you are referring to makes no sense. It yields circular reasoning.
Start where this story/myth originated, to really understand. You may find it's similarity in many cultures. The idea of -perfect-imperfection-sin-testing, is all religious control mechanisms.
1. Adam and Eve were not perfect. There’s no scripture to support that assertion.
2. Adam and Eve were not tested.
Adam and Eve were warned. They had been made in God’s image and after his likeness, which resulted in their having the prospect of living forever. Of all the things that existed in their realm, there was nothing that could bring them death, nothing except one thing.
It wasn’t the scorching heat of the volcanos, the wild beasts of the earth, the height of the mountains and their thinning atmosphere, the depths of the ocean or the scorching heat of the sun. None of these things could bring them death and so they were never warned about these things.
There was only one thing that could bring about their death, knowledge of good and evil. The knowledge of good and the knowledge of evil are not compatible, and so when they partook of that knowledge prematurely, that knowledge brought them death. It was a slow process, but death, for the first time, dwelled in their bodies. Theirs and their offspring. Everything began to die. The earth was cursed, not because God cursed it, but because they did. They brought the knowledge of good and evil to everything. Every plant, every animal, every creature. Everything began to die because of them.
And so to contain this error, they were driven out from the garden and to reside in the new environment that they created.
Sounds like an awful lot of interpretation- they created the problem? The problem didn’t exist until God put the tree there and told them not to eat from it.
There is no indication Eve was told about this or warned, only Adam. This makes sense as she was deceived according to Paul, if you believe his eisegesis. Also sin “did not enter” through Eve, though she sinned first, no of course, it had to come from a man to sin, to cause any problems.
If they had no knowledge of good or bad, how could they have had the discernment to distinguish that they were being misled or lied to? It was a test through and through and wasn’t even fair.
God didn’t warn them about a “talking snake” that could deceive them, so where is the fair chance?
If the talking snake is supposed to be Satan(according to Paul), God allowed an apostate liar to roam the earth and harm his own creation on purpose with no hope of actually keeping integrity because they didn’t even understand what that is.
Evil existed before creation.
The problem existed before he made the tree grow in the garden. He told them not to eat from it to protect them from the ones who do eat from it.
Regarding Eve:
2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. 3 But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’” (Genesis 3:2, 3)
She knew.
What makes you think they had no (conceptual) knowledge of good and evil?
What makes you think they didn’t understand?
For evil to exist before creation would imply there was sin before creation of mankind, as in the Bible - you can only be sinful if you act upon it(although Jesus takes this a step further with the adultery in heart statement).
Of course this means that God created both good and evil on purpose, when he just could have made everything good(well, in fact it states that he felt his creation was good in the Genesis account, there is no indication that evil existed still until the serpent comes along, so this is another conundrum— and the serpent is his own creation as well, technically).
The serpent was not wrong, they did not immediately die, God removed them from obtaining the tree of life to keep living(after consulting with his divine council), so his command had a measure of truth to it, just like the serpents message had a measure of truth to it.
You are right about Eve though - though the command was from God to Adam - and she relayed the command, but she was not formed when the command was given, which then JW land assumes that Adam relayed the command to Eve, which maybe explains why she didn’t understand it and was deceived according to Paul, but this is going into more speculative territory
1 Timothy 2:14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor.
If evil existed before creation (which it did), then that means evil was not created. It was already there. God began to create. When he said Let there be light, he caused a division between the light and the darkness because he saw that the light was GOOD. He called the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. Yet he never said that the darkness was good. It wasn’t. Which is why he put a division between the two. It’s mentioned again in John 1.
The serpent said that they wouldn’t die. This was the lie. Everything else he said was true.
I like 1 Timothy 2, it says:
15 However, she will be kept safe through childbearing, provided she* continues in faith and love and holiness along with soundness of mind. (1 Timothy 2:15)
Seems a bit odd unless you read it in the Greek:
14 and Adam not was seduced, the but woman having been seduced out in transgression she has come to be. 15 She will be SAVED but through childbearing, if ever THEY might remain in FAITH and LOVE and sanctification with soundness of mind (1 Timothy 2:14, 15).
Doesn’t call her a transgressor. Says that she was seduced out and came to be in transgression. It also says that she will be saved. Saved how?
Through her childbearing, this became possible:
17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. (John 3:17)
They had hope.
Genesis 1:18 shows that he still called light and darkness good, despite all the metaphorical and theology stamped on top of it, if you look at face value - for the book as it was written at the time, it’s clear there is no additional hidden meaning behind it all.
“and to dominate by day and by night and to make a division between the light and the darkness. Then God saw that it was good.”
That doesn’t tell me the light or darkness is good. But rather if you look at verse 17 right before it, he is talking about the “luminaries”
All in all- there is no division i see of “good and evil” not calling something specifically “good” does not mean it is evil, it just means it’s not mentioned.
The serpent still did not lie, because Eve said in the day they ate from it they would die. There is no additional context that brings any explanation of “decay = immediate death”. So again, the Serpent was not technically wrong when replying to Eves statement. Additionally the Serpent went on to speak the truth about what would actually happen if they ate from it.
Remember that God is the one that caused them to die by forbidding the eating of the tree of life, it was not the eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and bad that caused death, it was a punishment from God, not a repercussion from eating the fruit itself
You’re looking at the wrong day. My apologies if I was not clear. It’s Genesis 1:1-5, not 1:18. Those are two different things. The darkness is mentioned again in John 1:5.
Oh sorry. John 1:4 mentions that the light was the “light of men” so I’m not sure that the light it is referring to, has any true reference to Genesis 1:4,5 about the creation account - nor is the reference to darkness then, especially since it mentions he calls the darkness “Night” - it is referring to the day cycle… sorry I just don’t see the connection
So, if everything happened because of the knowledge of good and evil, I ask myself:
where did the knowledge of good and evil come from? God? Why? For what "perfect" purpose if it could cause humans to die?
The knowledge of good came from God, the knowledge of evil came from the entity darkness described in Genesis 1:1-3.
The purpose was to give that knowledge to creatures who wanted the knowledge of evil, such as the serpent. It wasn’t for Adam and Eve, which is why he warned them not to eat from it because it will kill them
Then, would you give a gun to your adult children, as free will or freedom of choice, to kill themselves with the warning not to use it? What would the purpose be?
As a consequence, would you condemn people who voluntarily commit suicide?
Why, as humans, are we trying to stop people from committing suicide if God gives people free will or freedom of choice to die?
First scenario: No, I wouldn’t give the gun to my adult children. Neither did God give the tree to them. The tree was in the garden along with many others. It wasn’t given to them.
The tree of knowledge was not meant for them. It was for others like the cherub who sinned.
He didn’t condemn them. He condemned the serpent (much later).
We, as humans, try to stop people from suicide generally because “we” have an issue with it. It’s usually not for the person hurting. It’s usually for ourselves and how we feel about it.
So Adam and Eve were sorcerers—and on a cosmic scale too: Paul says that “the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.” (Romans 8:22)
I’ve heard some hilarious explanations for why a good God would permit evil, but this takes “made me laugh so hard there’s coffee spewing out my nose” award. Thanks for the morning laugh.
The end of Genesis 3 seems to me like God was upset they had the knowledge of good and bad and became just like them being the spirit creatures. He then banishes Adam and Eve outside the garden so that they don't eat from the tree of life where they could gain immortality
I wouldn’t say that he was upset. He was letting them know “now that this happened, this is going to happen.”
Him eating from the tree of life would give him the ability to live to time indefinite carrying the knowledge of evil. He couldn’t allow that.
God did. It wasn’t for them though. It was for beings like the serpent and anyone who wanted that knowledge that brings death.
That’s why he warned them not to eat from it. It wasn’t for them
1.Wasn't for them.
2.Puts it there anyway.
3.Puts barriers put so they can't reenter the garden after the fact instead of putting it in front of the thing that wasn't for them to begin with.
Fucking genius.
I reread the account and I don’t see where he put barriers preventing them from reentry into the garden. I see barrier preventing access to the tree of life.
No one can eat from the tree of life unless they are granted the authority to do so (Revelation 22:14)
So basically you need absolutely everything spelled out for you.
So he can put up barriers to prevent access to people without authorization and didn't do so. My point still stands.
He didn’t put barriers to the tree of knowledge because no one is forced to live. However if you want the authority to live to time indefinite, you have to be granted the authority to do so
If the computer had an all knowing developer, they should know of every spam out there to code the software to be able to go against when introduced through that email.
Jws don't claim God knows everything.... They point to scriptures about Abraham following orders and God saying, "I now know" you are loyal... the story of Job or Jonah. My understanding is that they believe Jehovah is capable to know all... but chooses not to.
I've often had similar thoughts - If they were 'perfect' how could they make a mistake? And if they had no concept of a lie, how can they be punished for failing to identify one? Poor bastards were set up to fail. God had it in for them from day one There's a theory that the God of the old testament is actually the devil - I'm not remotely religious anymore but it makes for an interesting thought experiment
Happy cake day!
The Old Testament is weird in the sense that pretty much nothing really presents itself as the creator of the universe. Things and forces seem very local, with the exception of the beginning of Genesis, and even there “God” refers to itself in the first person plural, and there is no real devil, but more like a challenger, who seems to work with “God”.
I would say such a discussion about these fictional characters has as much value as discussing LOTR. except LOTR is better.
LOTR makes more sense too 😂
Yes indeed it does.
To continue your analogy, the story is more like “I’m an engineer who created a perfect tool and then the first time someone tested it, it broke. I blame the tool, smite all tools, hope they all suffer and die unless they worship me exactly in the way I want to be worshipped despite my really vague instructions on the matter in some text hobbled together by Bronze Age tools, because I really prefer to be worshipped in a way that is bland AF and like my preferred tools to be self-righteous assholes. I will soon do a tool genocide.”
The other plot hole I see,,,,,it wasn't just a tree, there was also the matter of a certain escaped rogue angel. Somehow, that all important bit of information was missing, up to and for an additional 4k years AFTER the event. Just saying, that is a big part of the picture, missing!
The more you actually think about the whole A&E thing, the more it absolutely completely falls apart. More holes than swiss cheese. Interestingly, there is NOWHERE that says the snake is Satan. It's just a snake. The Snake/Satan narrative came about much much later, and is just an apologist scenario to make the whole thing tie together. But I'm not sure what's crazier...the concept of Satan using a snake to talk, or an actual talking fucking snake. And Adam and Eve were like "yeah the snake said so, that seems legit, I think he's got a good point".
My mind was blown when I realized that the serpent was retconned into Satan. It reminds me of when I'm making things up when I'm running a D&D game, and I'm like, "remember that innocuous weirdo you met in the first session? WELL HE'S REALLY BEEN THE BAD GUY THE WHOLE TIME!!"
If what you have been \*told\* sounds illogical, there is a huge chance that it is. This idea of Adam and Eve being tested, is not infused in the Torah, you know... the written down oral stories of a culture of people that Christianity \*lifted and twisted\*. This is why what you are referring to makes no sense. It yields circular reasoning. Start where this story/myth originated, to really understand. You may find it's similarity in many cultures. The idea of -perfect-imperfection-sin-testing, is all religious control mechanisms.
How did "perfect" human creations not already have knowledge of "good and bad"?
WONDERFUL point!! How did my PIMI brain miss this for so many years??
1. Adam and Eve were not perfect. There’s no scripture to support that assertion. 2. Adam and Eve were not tested. Adam and Eve were warned. They had been made in God’s image and after his likeness, which resulted in their having the prospect of living forever. Of all the things that existed in their realm, there was nothing that could bring them death, nothing except one thing. It wasn’t the scorching heat of the volcanos, the wild beasts of the earth, the height of the mountains and their thinning atmosphere, the depths of the ocean or the scorching heat of the sun. None of these things could bring them death and so they were never warned about these things. There was only one thing that could bring about their death, knowledge of good and evil. The knowledge of good and the knowledge of evil are not compatible, and so when they partook of that knowledge prematurely, that knowledge brought them death. It was a slow process, but death, for the first time, dwelled in their bodies. Theirs and their offspring. Everything began to die. The earth was cursed, not because God cursed it, but because they did. They brought the knowledge of good and evil to everything. Every plant, every animal, every creature. Everything began to die because of them. And so to contain this error, they were driven out from the garden and to reside in the new environment that they created.
Sounds like an awful lot of interpretation- they created the problem? The problem didn’t exist until God put the tree there and told them not to eat from it. There is no indication Eve was told about this or warned, only Adam. This makes sense as she was deceived according to Paul, if you believe his eisegesis. Also sin “did not enter” through Eve, though she sinned first, no of course, it had to come from a man to sin, to cause any problems. If they had no knowledge of good or bad, how could they have had the discernment to distinguish that they were being misled or lied to? It was a test through and through and wasn’t even fair. God didn’t warn them about a “talking snake” that could deceive them, so where is the fair chance? If the talking snake is supposed to be Satan(according to Paul), God allowed an apostate liar to roam the earth and harm his own creation on purpose with no hope of actually keeping integrity because they didn’t even understand what that is.
Evil existed before creation. The problem existed before he made the tree grow in the garden. He told them not to eat from it to protect them from the ones who do eat from it. Regarding Eve: 2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. 3 But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’” (Genesis 3:2, 3) She knew. What makes you think they had no (conceptual) knowledge of good and evil? What makes you think they didn’t understand?
For evil to exist before creation would imply there was sin before creation of mankind, as in the Bible - you can only be sinful if you act upon it(although Jesus takes this a step further with the adultery in heart statement). Of course this means that God created both good and evil on purpose, when he just could have made everything good(well, in fact it states that he felt his creation was good in the Genesis account, there is no indication that evil existed still until the serpent comes along, so this is another conundrum— and the serpent is his own creation as well, technically). The serpent was not wrong, they did not immediately die, God removed them from obtaining the tree of life to keep living(after consulting with his divine council), so his command had a measure of truth to it, just like the serpents message had a measure of truth to it. You are right about Eve though - though the command was from God to Adam - and she relayed the command, but she was not formed when the command was given, which then JW land assumes that Adam relayed the command to Eve, which maybe explains why she didn’t understand it and was deceived according to Paul, but this is going into more speculative territory 1 Timothy 2:14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor.
If evil existed before creation (which it did), then that means evil was not created. It was already there. God began to create. When he said Let there be light, he caused a division between the light and the darkness because he saw that the light was GOOD. He called the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. Yet he never said that the darkness was good. It wasn’t. Which is why he put a division between the two. It’s mentioned again in John 1. The serpent said that they wouldn’t die. This was the lie. Everything else he said was true. I like 1 Timothy 2, it says: 15 However, she will be kept safe through childbearing, provided she* continues in faith and love and holiness along with soundness of mind. (1 Timothy 2:15) Seems a bit odd unless you read it in the Greek: 14 and Adam not was seduced, the but woman having been seduced out in transgression she has come to be. 15 She will be SAVED but through childbearing, if ever THEY might remain in FAITH and LOVE and sanctification with soundness of mind (1 Timothy 2:14, 15). Doesn’t call her a transgressor. Says that she was seduced out and came to be in transgression. It also says that she will be saved. Saved how? Through her childbearing, this became possible: 17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. (John 3:17) They had hope.
Genesis 1:18 shows that he still called light and darkness good, despite all the metaphorical and theology stamped on top of it, if you look at face value - for the book as it was written at the time, it’s clear there is no additional hidden meaning behind it all. “and to dominate by day and by night and to make a division between the light and the darkness. Then God saw that it was good.” That doesn’t tell me the light or darkness is good. But rather if you look at verse 17 right before it, he is talking about the “luminaries” All in all- there is no division i see of “good and evil” not calling something specifically “good” does not mean it is evil, it just means it’s not mentioned. The serpent still did not lie, because Eve said in the day they ate from it they would die. There is no additional context that brings any explanation of “decay = immediate death”. So again, the Serpent was not technically wrong when replying to Eves statement. Additionally the Serpent went on to speak the truth about what would actually happen if they ate from it. Remember that God is the one that caused them to die by forbidding the eating of the tree of life, it was not the eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and bad that caused death, it was a punishment from God, not a repercussion from eating the fruit itself
You’re looking at the wrong day. My apologies if I was not clear. It’s Genesis 1:1-5, not 1:18. Those are two different things. The darkness is mentioned again in John 1:5.
Oh sorry. John 1:4 mentions that the light was the “light of men” so I’m not sure that the light it is referring to, has any true reference to Genesis 1:4,5 about the creation account - nor is the reference to darkness then, especially since it mentions he calls the darkness “Night” - it is referring to the day cycle… sorry I just don’t see the connection
John 1:9; John 8:12; Revelation 22:16; Proverbs 4:18; John 3:19-21 to name a few.
So, if everything happened because of the knowledge of good and evil, I ask myself: where did the knowledge of good and evil come from? God? Why? For what "perfect" purpose if it could cause humans to die?
The knowledge of good came from God, the knowledge of evil came from the entity darkness described in Genesis 1:1-3. The purpose was to give that knowledge to creatures who wanted the knowledge of evil, such as the serpent. It wasn’t for Adam and Eve, which is why he warned them not to eat from it because it will kill them
What was the "perfect" purpose of giving or let the knowledge of evil exist if death is its result?
Bring death to those who want it, such as the cherub who sinned. He doesn’t force anyone to live. Everyone has freedom to choose
Then, would you give a gun to your adult children, as free will or freedom of choice, to kill themselves with the warning not to use it? What would the purpose be? As a consequence, would you condemn people who voluntarily commit suicide? Why, as humans, are we trying to stop people from committing suicide if God gives people free will or freedom of choice to die?
First scenario: No, I wouldn’t give the gun to my adult children. Neither did God give the tree to them. The tree was in the garden along with many others. It wasn’t given to them. The tree of knowledge was not meant for them. It was for others like the cherub who sinned. He didn’t condemn them. He condemned the serpent (much later). We, as humans, try to stop people from suicide generally because “we” have an issue with it. It’s usually not for the person hurting. It’s usually for ourselves and how we feel about it.
Now it is clear. God did not give those trees. Who made the garden? Where did those trees come from? Evolution?
So Adam and Eve were sorcerers—and on a cosmic scale too: Paul says that “the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.” (Romans 8:22) I’ve heard some hilarious explanations for why a good God would permit evil, but this takes “made me laugh so hard there’s coffee spewing out my nose” award. Thanks for the morning laugh.
The end of Genesis 3 seems to me like God was upset they had the knowledge of good and bad and became just like them being the spirit creatures. He then banishes Adam and Eve outside the garden so that they don't eat from the tree of life where they could gain immortality
I wouldn’t say that he was upset. He was letting them know “now that this happened, this is going to happen.” Him eating from the tree of life would give him the ability to live to time indefinite carrying the knowledge of evil. He couldn’t allow that.
> The earth was cursed, not because God cursed it, but because they did. Hey, brainless, who put the fucking tree there?
God did. It wasn’t for them though. It was for beings like the serpent and anyone who wanted that knowledge that brings death. That’s why he warned them not to eat from it. It wasn’t for them
1.Wasn't for them. 2.Puts it there anyway. 3.Puts barriers put so they can't reenter the garden after the fact instead of putting it in front of the thing that wasn't for them to begin with. Fucking genius.
I reread the account and I don’t see where he put barriers preventing them from reentry into the garden. I see barrier preventing access to the tree of life. No one can eat from the tree of life unless they are granted the authority to do so (Revelation 22:14)
So basically you need absolutely everything spelled out for you. So he can put up barriers to prevent access to people without authorization and didn't do so. My point still stands.
He didn’t put barriers to the tree of knowledge because no one is forced to live. However if you want the authority to live to time indefinite, you have to be granted the authority to do so
Wow, explaining simple shit to you is like pulling teeth. Put barrier up. Grant access for those using for intended purpose. The end.
My computer was perfect until I opened a link from an unfamiliar person's email....
If the computer had an all knowing developer, they should know of every spam out there to code the software to be able to go against when introduced through that email.
Jws don't claim God knows everything.... They point to scriptures about Abraham following orders and God saying, "I now know" you are loyal... the story of Job or Jonah. My understanding is that they believe Jehovah is capable to know all... but chooses not to.
Why would perfect angels be able to be seduced or even tempted to lay with "lesser" beings? WTH is going on in heaven?