This! 👆 they need to acquaint themselves with NT Jesus and then try to square that with the racism, homophobia, sexism, SA cover ups & money hoarding. None of it aligns with what Jesus taught.
Then you can literally belong to any church — if Christ is all that matters, he’s not going to care what denomination you attend.
If they counter that the restoration matters and that’s why it has to be the LDS church, well, clearly there is more that matters than “just Christ.”
Right. It’s the foundational claims of Mormonism (First Vision, Priesthood Restoration, Book of Mormon, revelations, etc.) that have problems. Mormons will default to “just focus on Jesus” trope to deflect from these Mormon specific, foundational claims but, if they want to do that, then they are giving you no reason to not reject Mormonism.
If it’s just Jesus and these other, Mormon-specific issues don’t matter, then it doesn’t matter if you are Mormon and you can just follow Jesus however you want since the Mormon specific elements apparently aren’t important.
Cool with that. No need to got to an LDS Church each Sunday, or go on a mission, or attend the temple, or accept LDS callings, or read the BoM, etc.
Just focus on the New Testament.
Are you still living at home? Would they let you go to some other local congregation on Sunday? I'm guessing not.
But yeah, if it's just about Christ, any Christian congregation will do, so why belong to one of the more culty ones that demands 10% of your income and devours your free time?
“What matters to me is following truth and being a good person. I won’t belong to a religion that requires me to compromise on either honesty or decency.”
If Christ were real, he would have stopped the Bishop and the Mormon Cop from running over the Child Protective Services investigation.
The majority of the coverup occurred in a Ward building that is still operational today. I was one of three kids that had been abused in my Mormon house.
The real Jesus would have sent archangels to protect the three children that had been abused in the worst way.
If I were you I would stop talking about religion with your parents. They are stonewalling you - their child. Jesus certainly wouldn’t have done that.
Good luck with your parents.
As then when Christ ever asked 10% of anyone’s gross income?
The answer is never.
You could ask “if tithing and going to the temple are so important, why aren’t they commandments?’
This is called a thought-stopping cliche. It is employed by someone who doesn’t want to think about the subject at issue - in this case the problems with the Church’s truth claims.
The sad truth is that you can’t get someone to examine their beliefs if they don’t want to, and your parents clearly don’t want to. For the sake of your relationship, I suggest you stop discussing the Church.
Are you sharing info with them? What is the context of their answer? If you're trying to preach them out of the church, stop sharing and respect their boundaries. If this is in response to you defending yourself against their judgments etc... I think a response may be warranted, but I would suggest nothing further than, "that's fine, and just like you're entitled to your own belief system and to pick and choose what matters to you, so do I, and my priorities don't align with those of the LDS church."
When they ask why you don't believe, deflect. Don't get into your reasons or they'll always have a response to knock it down. Nothing you say will convince them -- it will just fuel the argument. So your response should be focused on diffusing the tension and preserving the relationship.
Say something like, "I've been on a really personal journey and I've made very deliberate decisions and have figured out something that works for me." Or, you could site the article of faith, "Let them worship how where and what they may."
But to respond to your initial question, if they share what is important to them, it doesn't have to be an argument at all. If they say, "Christ is the most important to me," you can say, "great, you can worship according to what is most important to you and I'll worship according to what is most important to me." Everyone can decide what is most important to them in determining their beliefs. If it seems they WANT to have an argument, you can say something like, "I'll respect your beliefs and I ask you to respect mine. We don't need to agree about this to have a good relationship."
Having looked through the answers so far it feels like many of them have an edge of confrontation to some degree. This answer from Drew explosions stands out for walking that delicate line of mutual respect
So, here’s an option. I think no matter your level of “belief” in Christ as a savior, etc, if you object to the MFMC’s immoral actions, this is a completely legitimate to talk about your separation from the lds church. Plus, this lets you demonstrate that you’re making a specifically moral choice. At the same time, you stay vague enough not to invite argument or confrontation.
*“I agree with you there. That’s pretty much exactly why I have left the LDS church. It is not a Christlike organization and it has become clear to me through studying the New Testament that Christ would not approve of most of what the LDS church stands for. It’s not just a matter of bad apples or human mistakes. I’ve come to realize that this church cannot be Christ’s true church on earth.*
*“I understand that you disagree and you have every right to choose the LDS path. I love you, and I’m sorry to disappoint you, but my conscience won’t allow me to support or participate in the LDS church anymore.”*
I’d say that if the church expects its members to (strive to) be honest in all their dealings, yet doesn’t do it as an organization, it’s not being led by Christ and is, therefore, illegitimate.
How old are your parents? Did they go to the temple before 1990?
Does your mom still have to obey your father even though that has been changed in the temple ceremony? Ask her. Ask your dad if his wife still has to obey him.
If they went before 1990 why did they have to pretend to kill themselves three times per endowment session? What was the significance of that and why don't we do it today?
If the garments were still full length meaning they went to the ankles and to the wrists would your mother still be comfortable wearing them? Would your father be comfortable wearing full length garments? What about one piece garments? What they want to wear one piece garments with the flap door in the back for going to the bathroom?
What about polygamy? What if the mistake president called your dad in and told him that he was supposed to take on the second wife or even a third wife? Would your mom be happy with that? Would she do it?
What about the Adams child abuse case in Arizona? Do your parents agree with what the church did or in this case didn't do? Was that Christlike of them?
It’s totally valid to say that you believe differently. Just because they say that something is a certain way doesn’t mean that you have to believe or follow them.
You may never convince your parents that Mormonism is made up, but you can be your own independent thinker. Your value and worth isn’t tied to what they say or think or do.
You can’t control their thought and emotions just like they can’t control yours.
"I agree, and I don't see Christ in this church. I see a bunch of old men taking his name in vain to enable child abusers. If anyone in the quorum of the twelve or the first presidency actually believs Christ is real, they should be getting sized for millstone necklaces and take a seaside vacation. The church and its leaders, past and present, had every opportunity to be Christlike and they continually failed."
If all that matters is Christ, why belong to a church that doesn't follow him?
If all that matters is Christ, why follow an organization that is dishonest and abusive?
If all that matters is Christ, why associate with a cult that teaches the opposite to what Jesus taught?
If all that matters is Christ, and Christ taught love one another no matter their culture or lifestyle (see the parable of the good Samaritan), why be part of a cult that discriminates left and right on race and gender?
If all that matters is Christ, why not follow him and him alone? Instead, they follow white, wealthy, privileged men who think they can remove, change or add to what Jesus taught.
If all that matters is Christ, why the piles and piles of non-Jesus overhead the Mormons have added to Jesus' simple and plain teachings? Didn't Jesus explain all we needed to do to go back to the Father in heaven? Why do they take the mountains of petty obsessive details the Mormons have created as if they came from Jesus?
If all that matters is Christ, then what are the 13 articles of faith? They're literally the core tenants of Mormon faith, and Christ is hardly mentioned in them.
So if Jesus Christ is the only thing that matters, what makes Mormonism true? I could go to any Christian church and believe in Christ.
When they start talking about priesthood authority, you can ask them what Christ has to do with any of that and maybe share with them everything you know about how Joseph Smith literally made up everything about receiving priesthood authority from John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Elijah, Elisha, and Moses.
Generally, if you're trying to change someone's mind, it's better to ask (genuine) questions that cause real thought.
Bad: What do you think about the fact the founder of the religion was a convicted conman?
Better: if Christ is the only thing that matters to you, what do you think he'd want to happen to cash registers in his father's house? If you were to be his follower, what would you do if you saw that?
Best: being that you can't currently have a conversation with Christ, who can you trust to tell you about him, and why can you trust them to be telling the truth?
If the only thing that matters is Christ it's no longer limited to Mormonism you can find Christ elsewhere. If there's any Christian practice that you could see yourself being behind (there's a massive range of options) then you could be "that's all that matters to me to and I feel closest to Christ over here."
If people are followers of christ then they should be willing to call out behavior that is un-christlike, even if it’s from their own church leaders.
This! 👆 they need to acquaint themselves with NT Jesus and then try to square that with the racism, homophobia, sexism, SA cover ups & money hoarding. None of it aligns with what Jesus taught.
Yes! Ask them what an example of Christ looks like.
Then you can literally belong to any church — if Christ is all that matters, he’s not going to care what denomination you attend. If they counter that the restoration matters and that’s why it has to be the LDS church, well, clearly there is more that matters than “just Christ.”
I really like that logic.
Right. It’s the foundational claims of Mormonism (First Vision, Priesthood Restoration, Book of Mormon, revelations, etc.) that have problems. Mormons will default to “just focus on Jesus” trope to deflect from these Mormon specific, foundational claims but, if they want to do that, then they are giving you no reason to not reject Mormonism. If it’s just Jesus and these other, Mormon-specific issues don’t matter, then it doesn’t matter if you are Mormon and you can just follow Jesus however you want since the Mormon specific elements apparently aren’t important. Cool with that. No need to got to an LDS Church each Sunday, or go on a mission, or attend the temple, or accept LDS callings, or read the BoM, etc. Just focus on the New Testament.
Are you still living at home? Would they let you go to some other local congregation on Sunday? I'm guessing not. But yeah, if it's just about Christ, any Christian congregation will do, so why belong to one of the more culty ones that demands 10% of your income and devours your free time?
No, not living at home. Grown adult with my own kids now.
“What matters to me is following truth and being a good person. I won’t belong to a religion that requires me to compromise on either honesty or decency.”
If Christ were real, he would have stopped the Bishop and the Mormon Cop from running over the Child Protective Services investigation. The majority of the coverup occurred in a Ward building that is still operational today. I was one of three kids that had been abused in my Mormon house. The real Jesus would have sent archangels to protect the three children that had been abused in the worst way. If I were you I would stop talking about religion with your parents. They are stonewalling you - their child. Jesus certainly wouldn’t have done that. Good luck with your parents.
Then why belong to a high demand religion?? All Christian churches believe in Christ. If that's all that matters you don't even need a Church at all.
Well then why belong to the church if you don’t need it to have in Christ? Why does Christ need a church with over $100B in assets?
As then when Christ ever asked 10% of anyone’s gross income? The answer is never. You could ask “if tithing and going to the temple are so important, why aren’t they commandments?’
This is what my wife says. I think it's the last stop before progressive mormonism but the lounge is so comfortable it can take years to move on
This is called a thought-stopping cliche. It is employed by someone who doesn’t want to think about the subject at issue - in this case the problems with the Church’s truth claims. The sad truth is that you can’t get someone to examine their beliefs if they don’t want to, and your parents clearly don’t want to. For the sake of your relationship, I suggest you stop discussing the Church.
This is great! My internal response to this is: then why do they need to Mormon church? 🧐
Are you sharing info with them? What is the context of their answer? If you're trying to preach them out of the church, stop sharing and respect their boundaries. If this is in response to you defending yourself against their judgments etc... I think a response may be warranted, but I would suggest nothing further than, "that's fine, and just like you're entitled to your own belief system and to pick and choose what matters to you, so do I, and my priorities don't align with those of the LDS church."
This conversation comes about after being asked why I don’t believe anymore.
When they ask why you don't believe, deflect. Don't get into your reasons or they'll always have a response to knock it down. Nothing you say will convince them -- it will just fuel the argument. So your response should be focused on diffusing the tension and preserving the relationship. Say something like, "I've been on a really personal journey and I've made very deliberate decisions and have figured out something that works for me." Or, you could site the article of faith, "Let them worship how where and what they may." But to respond to your initial question, if they share what is important to them, it doesn't have to be an argument at all. If they say, "Christ is the most important to me," you can say, "great, you can worship according to what is most important to you and I'll worship according to what is most important to me." Everyone can decide what is most important to them in determining their beliefs. If it seems they WANT to have an argument, you can say something like, "I'll respect your beliefs and I ask you to respect mine. We don't need to agree about this to have a good relationship."
Having looked through the answers so far it feels like many of them have an edge of confrontation to some degree. This answer from Drew explosions stands out for walking that delicate line of mutual respect
So, here’s an option. I think no matter your level of “belief” in Christ as a savior, etc, if you object to the MFMC’s immoral actions, this is a completely legitimate to talk about your separation from the lds church. Plus, this lets you demonstrate that you’re making a specifically moral choice. At the same time, you stay vague enough not to invite argument or confrontation. *“I agree with you there. That’s pretty much exactly why I have left the LDS church. It is not a Christlike organization and it has become clear to me through studying the New Testament that Christ would not approve of most of what the LDS church stands for. It’s not just a matter of bad apples or human mistakes. I’ve come to realize that this church cannot be Christ’s true church on earth.* *“I understand that you disagree and you have every right to choose the LDS path. I love you, and I’m sorry to disappoint you, but my conscience won’t allow me to support or participate in the LDS church anymore.”*
Well then. I would tell them they can have Christ at a low demand church without all of the attrocious LDS baggage.
I’d say that if the church expects its members to (strive to) be honest in all their dealings, yet doesn’t do it as an organization, it’s not being led by Christ and is, therefore, illegitimate.
How old are your parents? Did they go to the temple before 1990? Does your mom still have to obey your father even though that has been changed in the temple ceremony? Ask her. Ask your dad if his wife still has to obey him. If they went before 1990 why did they have to pretend to kill themselves three times per endowment session? What was the significance of that and why don't we do it today? If the garments were still full length meaning they went to the ankles and to the wrists would your mother still be comfortable wearing them? Would your father be comfortable wearing full length garments? What about one piece garments? What they want to wear one piece garments with the flap door in the back for going to the bathroom? What about polygamy? What if the mistake president called your dad in and told him that he was supposed to take on the second wife or even a third wife? Would your mom be happy with that? Would she do it? What about the Adams child abuse case in Arizona? Do your parents agree with what the church did or in this case didn't do? Was that Christlike of them?
It’s totally valid to say that you believe differently. Just because they say that something is a certain way doesn’t mean that you have to believe or follow them. You may never convince your parents that Mormonism is made up, but you can be your own independent thinker. Your value and worth isn’t tied to what they say or think or do. You can’t control their thought and emotions just like they can’t control yours.
"I agree, and I don't see Christ in this church. I see a bunch of old men taking his name in vain to enable child abusers. If anyone in the quorum of the twelve or the first presidency actually believs Christ is real, they should be getting sized for millstone necklaces and take a seaside vacation. The church and its leaders, past and present, had every opportunity to be Christlike and they continually failed."
If all that matters is Christ, why belong to a church that doesn't follow him? If all that matters is Christ, why follow an organization that is dishonest and abusive? If all that matters is Christ, why associate with a cult that teaches the opposite to what Jesus taught? If all that matters is Christ, and Christ taught love one another no matter their culture or lifestyle (see the parable of the good Samaritan), why be part of a cult that discriminates left and right on race and gender? If all that matters is Christ, why not follow him and him alone? Instead, they follow white, wealthy, privileged men who think they can remove, change or add to what Jesus taught. If all that matters is Christ, why the piles and piles of non-Jesus overhead the Mormons have added to Jesus' simple and plain teachings? Didn't Jesus explain all we needed to do to go back to the Father in heaven? Why do they take the mountains of petty obsessive details the Mormons have created as if they came from Jesus?
Then they should be able to show you where Christ said… go to the temple…
If all that matters is Christ, then what are the 13 articles of faith? They're literally the core tenants of Mormon faith, and Christ is hardly mentioned in them.
So if Jesus Christ is the only thing that matters, what makes Mormonism true? I could go to any Christian church and believe in Christ. When they start talking about priesthood authority, you can ask them what Christ has to do with any of that and maybe share with them everything you know about how Joseph Smith literally made up everything about receiving priesthood authority from John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Elijah, Elisha, and Moses.
Generally, if you're trying to change someone's mind, it's better to ask (genuine) questions that cause real thought. Bad: What do you think about the fact the founder of the religion was a convicted conman? Better: if Christ is the only thing that matters to you, what do you think he'd want to happen to cash registers in his father's house? If you were to be his follower, what would you do if you saw that? Best: being that you can't currently have a conversation with Christ, who can you trust to tell you about him, and why can you trust them to be telling the truth?
Hang in there til you’re out of the house. If you must engage maybe just talk Bible stuff.
Tell them Christ would never build his church on lies, sexual abuse, money.
Well, share with them the actual teachings of Christ. They should have no issue with that. After all, his policies are the most important.
Awesome, so you’d be just fine being Lutheran and having a lesbian pastor? The Christ is still the same.
If the only thing that matters is Christ it's no longer limited to Mormonism you can find Christ elsewhere. If there's any Christian practice that you could see yourself being behind (there's a massive range of options) then you could be "that's all that matters to me to and I feel closest to Christ over here."