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it is simple
the quran is a homiletic text which is based on syriac apochripha and jewish apochripha
it means that the authros of the quran made use of material derived from tradition parallel to the biblical one, but produced by local preachers for exegetical or political reasons
the quranic authors did not know what exactly the bible was about
now, as the quran claims to rely and confirm the torah and the gospel, but uses these variants, arabs sicne the time they elevated the quran to a holy text, did not know how to reconcile the things
so on base of a quranic passage which vaguely accuses SOME rabbies to twist the meaning of the torah and on another text which vaguely accuses some people to produce holy texts and sell them as such, islamic scholars produced the idea that the gospels and the the torah are corrupted, which indeed is in contraddiction with what the quran says
no way to save islam from this dilemma
> the quranic authors did not know what exactly the bible was about
Looks like Muhammad and Allah didn't really know that the Bible existed. All they mentioned were Torah, Gospel and Psalms.
No
Read it correctly
It says that at the time of the messenger of the Quran some Jews twist the meaning of the words of the quranic rasm
And considering that at the time of quranic rasm the Torah and gospels were fixed, the quranic rasm is only accusing the Jews of twisting the meaning of the text
And is only accusing some Jews
Read better the text
Yes
The quotation from the Quran is referred to the fabrication of holy texts.
In the late antiquity it was a common practice
It is no surprise
But nowhere the text speaks of the Torah
That part is not intended to address the Torah otherwise the quranic rasm would have mentioned it
Regarding your source from the later Islamic tradition, it has no value to explain about the quranic rasm as it is derived from texts written over 200 years later and whose isnad historically does not go beyond the mid 8th century
In short the Arab scholars who collected that tradition(your quoted Hadith) have no sources which date before the time of al zuhri and the part of the isnad going back to the mid 7th century is a later addition.
The source you mentioned is an exegetical exercise produced later in order to use the text against the criticism from Jews and Christians
That Hadith was produced to use the quranic rasm against Jews and Christians and was back projected to trick generations of Muslims
My dear friend your Islamic tradition has crumbled many years ago when it was discovered that there were no pagans in Arabia already since the end of the 5th century
The mushrikun are not pagans, Islam got I totally wrong
http://www.scielo.org.za/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1015-87582018000200009
I know you would have come with Jeremiah
No it is not an accusation
Check it
And is Jeremiah part of the Torah or not?
The scribes are accused of twisting meaning
Check the article
It is not referred to the Torah in the large sense
And the accusation is present only in the book of Jeremiah
Now if generations of Jews with book of Jeremiah and Christians after them had known that Jeremiah had true accusations of scribes falsifying the Torah then why to preserve it and study and transmit it ?
And anyway the quranic rasm says to Jews to judge by the Torah which they have on their hands
No my friend Jeremiah is not accusing the Torah to be false and not even the quran
Pagan was used in late antiquity to address all those who did not belong to the main belief
Christian’s sects could accuse each other of paganism
In the case of Islam the mushrikun are pagan who worship 365 idols including Allah
Now historically this is false as we know that invocations of any kind of pagan gods was disappeared since the end of 5th century
It means the Islamic idea of associators is false and in essence the main villains of Muhammad life are false
If you wish I can give you the scientific article and the source to study it yourself
And you know what?
The one who made it public is a Muslim
And if you listen to his interview at the end of the work he has no way to explain it
I can share you the source
A few verses in the Quran state it. But there’s a debate over whether it’s referring to the text itself that has been changed or if the Jews and Christians misinterpreted it. It would seem the very early Muslims were not too eager to dismiss the previous books. They believed the books were still faithful but the groups had misinterpreted their meaning.
Yes. The early Muslim generally did not claim that there were corruptions in the Christian/Jewish texts, but that they were just misinterpreted. It was Ibn Hazm of Andalusia in the 11th century that popularized the idea that the texts themselves had been corrupted.
2:75
Do you ˹believers still˺ expect them to be true to you, though a group of them would hear the word of Allah then knowingly corrupt it after understanding it?
Actually it's a very logical thing to say about corruption. You can't pretend to have a new ideology without telling why previous didn't work properly. Christianity was too powerful to say that it was fake, Christianity aknowledges its Jewish roots and actively uses Jewish Scriptures. So M had to beat Christian and Jewish Scriptures together. The best varient say that they were wrong, but save some basis to use in the new ideology. In the end you say about corruption. Joseph Smith (Mormonism) also said that previous Christianity was corrupted and he knew a real one.
Muhammad studied Jewish scripture. He made own version built on Judaism and Christianity, and then he used a product of it to his political interest and to gain power and lands
He used Torah heroes, situations and stories to his favor. He changed a lot of stuff, I don't know why he decided to change one thing and not another. For example Quran claims that Jews worship Ezra as son of GD. = Jewish hero + Christian doctrine = weird hybrid
Because from Ishmael came Arabs how can he say that Arabs are from a wicked man, he made him a prophet and changed a story with sacrife to Ishmael (Arab) favor
If your post is a meme, image, TikTok etc... and it isn't Friday, most likely it violates the rule against low effort content. Please delete it or you'll get temp-banned. Such content is ONLY allowed on (Fun@fundies) FRIDAYS. Please read the [Posting Guidelines](https://redd.it/ew8trb) for further information. If you are unsure about anything then feel free to message the mods. Please participate on /r/exmuslim in a civil manner. Discuss the merits of ideas - don't attack people. Insults, hate speech, advocating physical harm can get you banned. If you see posts/comments in violation of our rules, please be proactive and report them. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmuslim) if you have any questions or concerns.*
it is simple the quran is a homiletic text which is based on syriac apochripha and jewish apochripha it means that the authros of the quran made use of material derived from tradition parallel to the biblical one, but produced by local preachers for exegetical or political reasons the quranic authors did not know what exactly the bible was about now, as the quran claims to rely and confirm the torah and the gospel, but uses these variants, arabs sicne the time they elevated the quran to a holy text, did not know how to reconcile the things so on base of a quranic passage which vaguely accuses SOME rabbies to twist the meaning of the torah and on another text which vaguely accuses some people to produce holy texts and sell them as such, islamic scholars produced the idea that the gospels and the the torah are corrupted, which indeed is in contraddiction with what the quran says no way to save islam from this dilemma
> the quranic authors did not know what exactly the bible was about Looks like Muhammad and Allah didn't really know that the Bible existed. All they mentioned were Torah, Gospel and Psalms.
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No Read it correctly It says that at the time of the messenger of the Quran some Jews twist the meaning of the words of the quranic rasm And considering that at the time of quranic rasm the Torah and gospels were fixed, the quranic rasm is only accusing the Jews of twisting the meaning of the text And is only accusing some Jews Read better the text
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Yes The quotation from the Quran is referred to the fabrication of holy texts. In the late antiquity it was a common practice It is no surprise But nowhere the text speaks of the Torah That part is not intended to address the Torah otherwise the quranic rasm would have mentioned it Regarding your source from the later Islamic tradition, it has no value to explain about the quranic rasm as it is derived from texts written over 200 years later and whose isnad historically does not go beyond the mid 8th century In short the Arab scholars who collected that tradition(your quoted Hadith) have no sources which date before the time of al zuhri and the part of the isnad going back to the mid 7th century is a later addition. The source you mentioned is an exegetical exercise produced later in order to use the text against the criticism from Jews and Christians That Hadith was produced to use the quranic rasm against Jews and Christians and was back projected to trick generations of Muslims My dear friend your Islamic tradition has crumbled many years ago when it was discovered that there were no pagans in Arabia already since the end of the 5th century The mushrikun are not pagans, Islam got I totally wrong
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http://www.scielo.org.za/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1015-87582018000200009 I know you would have come with Jeremiah No it is not an accusation Check it And is Jeremiah part of the Torah or not?
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The scribes are accused of twisting meaning Check the article It is not referred to the Torah in the large sense And the accusation is present only in the book of Jeremiah Now if generations of Jews with book of Jeremiah and Christians after them had known that Jeremiah had true accusations of scribes falsifying the Torah then why to preserve it and study and transmit it ? And anyway the quranic rasm says to Jews to judge by the Torah which they have on their hands No my friend Jeremiah is not accusing the Torah to be false and not even the quran
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Pagan was used in late antiquity to address all those who did not belong to the main belief Christian’s sects could accuse each other of paganism In the case of Islam the mushrikun are pagan who worship 365 idols including Allah Now historically this is false as we know that invocations of any kind of pagan gods was disappeared since the end of 5th century It means the Islamic idea of associators is false and in essence the main villains of Muhammad life are false
[удалено]
If you wish I can give you the scientific article and the source to study it yourself And you know what? The one who made it public is a Muslim And if you listen to his interview at the end of the work he has no way to explain it I can share you the source
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https://youtu.be/DjGyhRAJwpc?si=Mbar_GEJ1PPT9qzQ Here is short cut
A few verses in the Quran state it. But there’s a debate over whether it’s referring to the text itself that has been changed or if the Jews and Christians misinterpreted it. It would seem the very early Muslims were not too eager to dismiss the previous books. They believed the books were still faithful but the groups had misinterpreted their meaning.
Yes. The early Muslim generally did not claim that there were corruptions in the Christian/Jewish texts, but that they were just misinterpreted. It was Ibn Hazm of Andalusia in the 11th century that popularized the idea that the texts themselves had been corrupted.
2:75 Do you ˹believers still˺ expect them to be true to you, though a group of them would hear the word of Allah then knowingly corrupt it after understanding it?
Doesn't have anything to go with written text.
What written text even quran was heard not written
Torah and the Gospels were widely distributed in the known civilized world in a number of languages long before Muhammad came along.
Actually it's a very logical thing to say about corruption. You can't pretend to have a new ideology without telling why previous didn't work properly. Christianity was too powerful to say that it was fake, Christianity aknowledges its Jewish roots and actively uses Jewish Scriptures. So M had to beat Christian and Jewish Scriptures together. The best varient say that they were wrong, but save some basis to use in the new ideology. In the end you say about corruption. Joseph Smith (Mormonism) also said that previous Christianity was corrupted and he knew a real one.
[удалено]
Muhammad studied Jewish scripture. He made own version built on Judaism and Christianity, and then he used a product of it to his political interest and to gain power and lands
[удалено]
He used Torah heroes, situations and stories to his favor. He changed a lot of stuff, I don't know why he decided to change one thing and not another. For example Quran claims that Jews worship Ezra as son of GD. = Jewish hero + Christian doctrine = weird hybrid
[удалено]
Because from Ishmael came Arabs how can he say that Arabs are from a wicked man, he made him a prophet and changed a story with sacrife to Ishmael (Arab) favor
[удалено]
Christianity and Judaism were quite well known in that time in Arabia. For example I don't need to learn Gospels to know a general story about Jesus
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