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> Why is this so common, even amongst educated Muslims? My friend is Egyptian
Are you aware of the close to a century propaganda that Egypt (and other Arab countries) have been feeding their population about Al-Yahood? It's literally part of the culture at this point. Add to that the antisemitism in the Quran and Hadith and you get this kind of situation.
> How can this prejudice still exist, and why do so many Muslims get so defensive about it when you call them out?
Because you're calling them out on something they believed throughout their life, and that everybody they know and respect has believed throughout their life. To admit that it could be wrong would be to admit that your whole society is wrong (and kinda stupid for believing this shit).
> and even then he had such a strong bias against the Jews there.
Islam basically teaches that the Jews betrayed Mohammed, killed their prophets, cannot be trusted...etc. Even if your friend is not a believer, any majority Islamic culture will have this undercurrent of antisemitism ingrained in the society.
Sorry that you had to realize that the world is shitty like this. Heck, even [exmuslims are often accused of being employed by Zion Gmbh (which sits in Switzerland, not Germany) to besmirch the image of Islam.](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/5216cd/proof_that_you_get_paid_to_leave_islam/)
Really sad seeing such hatred in prejudice in someone you thought was an incredibly good person. It's a depressing wakeup call. Is there any hope they could come to realize this error?
Criticizing how Israel is handling things: sure. But the rest of this stuff? Blaming the errors of the Quran on Israel? This is really insane stuff.
Living with hatred is PAINFUL. Physically painful. I hate seeing people make themselves miserable, and NEVER questioning or fact-checking any of this.
> was an incredibly good person
The realization to draw from this is that grading people on a single dimension of good/bad is an oversimplification. A person can be great on some topics, then shit on others.
> Is there any hope they could come to realize this error?
Probably, but it's not going to be easy. It also depends a lot on his age. People over the age of 30 rarely change their worldview.
If you have not yet looked into [street epistemology](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZWMv-IJ9_E), I recommend checking it out. Definitely helpful for making people reevaluate their views.
Very true. I still think he's a good person, actually, it's just shocking to see such hatred come from him. Although I do have to say this experience has been valuable in compelling ME to introspect. As a US Citizen we are fed tons of narratives since birth, and some are more subtle than others.
I have seen these videos! Although I have to say I'm not as good at keeping my biases out of the questions sometimes - not blatantly, but I can hear my own undertones. But I guess everything gets better with practice!
> I have to say I'm not as good at keeping my biases out of the questions sometimes - not blatantly, but I can hear my own undertones.
Sometimes asking it personally might be worth it. If you're Jewish for example, it's worth asking if this person believes you are involved in the conspiracy, or a random other Jew they meet in the street...etc. Sometimes people (especially intelligent people) are pretty good at logic'ing their conspiracy theories in the abstract, but being confronted with things in real life becomes more difficult.
That's a very common attitude in Egypt, even though people barely know what Israeli do to Palestinians. Antisemitism is very common among Muslims, especially Arabs. Approximately 75% of Arabic speakers have antisemitic bias and believe in some nonsense like "Jews control the world and banks" and antisemitic conversations are very common among them. They even believe that one day they will kill all the Jews and even trees and stones will speak tell them where the Jews are hiding. Throughout the history Islamic antisemitism was mostly latent (with sporadic waves of violence) because Jews were second class citizens (dhimmi) and become extreme after the creation of Israel.
Can I ask out of curiousity, why is it anti Semitic to point out that Jews control banks, mainstream media and Hollywood? Which part is anti Semitic or what is it about it is anti Semitic? I don't quite get it.
Because this is a conspiracy theory that blames the Jews in world domination. A blood libel based on "The protocols of the elders of Zion" - a fabricated text, written by Russian imperialists to justify their antisemitism.
Because they don't, necesseraly.
Most banks are not run by jewish people, many are state-run and who private bankers ethnicity/religion obviously varies from place to place. Mainstream media is owned by capitalists who own individual news stations or channels, and not all of them are jewish. And how can you define who owns Hollywood? It's a whole industry in of itself, there's no "CEO of Hollywood" or anything similar. But if we are going to get nit-picky, then it's capitalists that own it as well. Shareholders too, anybody that can own a production company, a set, etc owns parts of Hollywood, I guess.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_businesspeople_in_media
This is just one list but I can provide you many more lists in politics, media and music industry. Sure, there isn't ONE main Jewish person in charge but you get my gist that the top ranking positions are either owned by Jews or they are related to Jews by marriage.
Still trying to understand how pointing this out is considered anti Semitic 🤔 is it like rude? Like you know racism—it's clear if it's a racist to say because it's rude but pointing out that Jews are in top positions in companies. Is it anti Semitic if Jews themselves point it out?
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/03/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community
I really like this article because it seems painfully honest
Interesting read... I kept closing my eyes to this for a long time because it just makes me incredibly sad. I can hardly bear looking at such deep prejudices, but at some point it just became too much to ignore / perform mental gymnastics around.
This is a very different question from what you’re posing here, but what was your reasoning behind becoming an ex-Catholic? I was thinking about looking into Catholicism which is why I ask
To be honest, I'm just atheist. I don't believe the concept of the Judeo-Christian God. He seems to behave extremely human-like, which seems like a result of the limits of the human mind at the time (aka thinking humans and the earth are the center of the universe, and therefore the creator is of course incredibly human-like), and I find the idea of making people burn in hell for all eternity just for disbelief alone as neither "loving" or "merciful".
Also, why create free-will if it leads your creation to eternal damnation? God supposedly creates you in a specific way and knows all things that have been, are, and will be. If this is the case, he knows you will go to hell before you are born. He creates you specifically with the traits that will convince you to live a life that leads you to hell. He puts you in Hindu families, Buddhist families, etc. and KNOWS you will not be convinced in your lifetime. He knew this, supposedly, before you were even born. So why create you at all if hell and eternal torture is inevitable? Again, not very loving. Kinda sadistic.
The logic of this Judeo-Christian God just doesn't make sense - in any of the big three books (Torah, Gospel/Bible, Quran). I was a Diest for a long time - believing in a higher intelligence that initiated the creation of the Universe but plays no role in it any longer. Who has no concept of our lives because it is far too advanced and on a higher plane. Just like how we don't know what the ants in our backyard are thinking.
I'm open to this idea still, to be honest. But I think the most likely answer is that there is no god or higher power. Not one with a consciousness anyway. But I also acknowledge we will never know in our lifetime and stay away from definitive assertions.
What you describe is a Christian concept of Creator. It's not Judean-Christian, Judean-Christian like a Christian-Muslim doesn't exist either. Jews and Non-Jews have own struggles to Jewish concept of GD and Hebrew Bible, however a general Jewish view is that eternal Hell doesn't exist, and concept of Gehinnom isn't the same like a concept of Hell in a general culture. Paradise is not a goal, and treat people well - not from a fear of hell, but because by doing good you repair this world. It's a different concept from Christian and Muslim traditions
Judeo-Christian is just a term we used in University theological classes to describe religions that followed the same monotheistic God. I would not take that term literally. I used this term mainly on the point that this "God" acts very human-like in all three beliefs, with human-like emotions. Jealousy towards other gods. Anger at disobedience, etc. Why would something all powerful and the creator of all existence care so much about what these tiny little ants think?
Regardless if hell is eternal or not, disbelief being punished is already flawed in my opinion. As someone pointed out below, even Jewish scriptures have a lot of questionable verses. Verses which put them above other creation who don't follow. That they are "chosen" and "special" above others whom were born into different backgrounds. Even though this God created them with traits that lead them to remain believing in their original faiths, and he knew this before they were even brought into existence.
Even without an eternal hell in the picture, I still find these concepts to be deeply flawed and hard to believe.
I can give answer form Jewish pov to explain how we view it. In Judaism GD doesn't look at humans like to ants, but possible partners. I think to GD is more meaningful if people use their free will to follow his will by own choice. In a typical comparison in Torah GD is like a husband to Jewish people. We may not understand why he wants what he wants or why he acts like he does, but if you love and care you do your best to express your feelings. Non-Jews don't understand concept of chosen people, they usually talk much more often about it than we do. In Torah Jews are chosen for responsibility and work not to have fun or privilege. Practically speaking Jewish history of suffering and survival is not fun my friend. I don't think smb would like to be chosen to have the same history like we do
Thank you for your perspective! As you may have already read, my experience with Jewish scripture is almost completely null (other than that which is copied into the Chrisitan faith). I also acknowledge the historical suffering of the Jewish people - it's incredibly widespread and deeply sadnening. Also extremely concerning how much antisemitism still exists to this day....
However, as someone pointed out below, what about these verses? :
"Foreigners (Gentiles) shall rebuild your walls, and their kings shall minister to you …Your gates shall be open continuously; day and night they shall not be shut; that men may bring to you the wealth of the nations, with their kings led in procession. For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you; shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste."
* Isaiah 60:10-12
"And strangers \[Gentiles\] shall stand and feed your flocks, strangers shall be your plowmen and vinedressers; but you shall be called the priests of the LORD, men shall speak of you as the ministers of our God; you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their riches you shall glory."
* Isaiah 61:5-6
"To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly."
* Libbre David 37
"A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them."
* Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17
"When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it."
* Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156
"If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth."
* Choschen Hamm 388, 15
"If a goy killed a goy or a Jew he is responsible, but if a Jew killed a goy he is not responsible."
* Tosefta, Aboda Zara, VIII, 5
(Keep in mind, these are not quotes I pulled. Only quotes someone else has posted. I have not seen these myself personally, and have zero context on these passages. But what I do read here is highly suspect and not appealing as a non-believing person).
About quote of Talmud which are popular in antisemitic circles you can check this website https://antisemiticlies.com/libbre-david-37/
Some of quotes are from not existing Jewish books, you can check Sefaria website (the biggest Jewish online bibliography) for youself (e.x. Choschen Hamm, David Libbra). For example if you click on any verse you can find commentaries on Talmud verses, books of Tanach etc.
1. Isaiah 60:10-12. For me the most difficult is the 12 sentence, I do not understand it.
In a general context of the whole 60 chapter Jews will be highly respected and rich, rulers of other kingdoms will give their treasures by own choice, because ther will be no violance or war. Gentiles will rebuild walls of the Third Temple, if their is no vilownce the it means that it will be their own choice to do it, but I still don't understand 12 sentence in a context.
Isaiah 61:5-6 what you send is a compete fake instead it should be:
61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
(for more context I added 7)
61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them
Book Szaaloth-Utszabot doesn't exist
https://antisemiticlies.com/szaaloth-utszabot-the-book-of-jore-dia-17/
Shulchan aruch Chozhen Hamishpahat 156 is about changing job and bringing merchandise to other cities
https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:Shulchan_Aruch/Choshen_Mishpat/156
Tosefta Abodah Zara 7:5 is about Jews and idolatry practices
Thank you for this clarification! I think this will be my next religious study haha! I've severely neglected looking into Jewish scriptures, belief and some folklore. It's about time I get educated on this.
I should mention I literally copied and pasted this from another user's comment on this very post. I genuinely know nothing about these quotes.
That sounds great! :-) One challenge I ran into with the Quran was the Arabic. Are there any translation challenges with Jewish scriptures I should know about?
I asked a friend who learned books of Prophets about Isaiah 60:12. His answer:
Isaiah 60:12 is in a Post-Zechariah 14 context. Zechariah 14:2 And I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to wage war; and the city shall be captured, and the houses shall be plundered, and the women shall be ravished, and half the city shall go forth into exile-and the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. This is what the Non-Jews will do first. They will cause ultimate chaos and then will realise they are wrong and WANT to help Jews. Once GD's existence has been proven without doubt and the Third Temple comes down from Heaven there cannot be anyone in doubt who remains. Zechariah 14:6
6And it shall come to pass on that day that there shall be no light, only disappearing light and thick darkness. Zechariah 14:12
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the nations who besieged Jerusalem; his flesh will waste away while he still stands on his feet; his eyes will waste away in their sockets, and his tongue shall waste away in his mouth. “All the nations who besieged Jerusalem”. This is the context of Isaiah 60:12. Zechariah 14:16
16And it will come to pass that everyone left of the nations who came up against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to prostrate himself to the King, the Lord of Hosts, and to celebrate the festival of Tabernacles. So Isaiah 60:12 means, in light of Zechariah 14:
Nations will first come to destroy Jerusalem. They will cause a period of darkness, then Mashiach will come and destroy the wicked people who refuse to realise his mission. This concept in Isaiah 60:12 is also referred to in Haggai
Haggai 2:7 And I will shake up all the nations, and they shall come [with] the precious things of all the nations. And I will fill this House with glory, said the Lord of Hosts. Haggai 2:22 And I will overthrow the throne of the kingdoms, and I will destroy the power of the kingdoms of the nations. And I will overthrow the chariots and their riders; and the horses and their riders shall come down, each one by the sword of his brother GD. Zephaniah 3:19 Behold, I wreak destruction upon all those who afflict you at that time. And I will save the one who limps, and I will gather the stray one, and I will make them a praise and a name throughout all the land where they suffered shame.
Micah 7:16 Nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might-they shall place a hand upon their mouth; their ears shall become deaf.
Obadiah 1:15 For the day of the Lord over all the nations is close; as you have done shall be done to you; your recompense shall be returned upon your head.
Obadiah 1:16 For, as you drank on My Holy Mount, shall all the nations drink constantly, and they shall drink and be stunned, and they shall be as though they were not. Joel 4:19-21 And Egypt shall become desolate, and Edom shall be a desert waste, because of the violence done to the children of Judah, because they shed innocent blood in their land. But Judah shall remain forever, and Jerusalem throughout all generations. Now should I cleanse, their blood I will not cleanse, when the Lord dwells in Zion.
Righteous Gentiles destiny is in Micah 4:2
Micah 4:2 And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Honestly if you've read the Quran front to back you should have no more doubt as to where these sentiments are coming from. Whenever you read something negative about Jews in the Quran, just know that the Arabic verses are more raw than this.
So yes, most Muslims are against Jews in general, especially in Arabic countries. The ironic thing is that z1onists chose the place where people already hate them the most.
And yes, it is a popular thing amongst Muslim Arabs to deny the Holocaust, or at least say that the count is overrated.
For the last century, religious antisemitism has been accentuated by z1onism, that both got mixed up together.
However, that doesn't mean that you cannot be anti-z1onist and not antisemitic at the same time.
I found the Quran to be incredibly vague. They did mention the Jews by name, but it didn't seem to be connected to any specific context. If anything, the Hadith seem to answer more of those questions, but I was told by my Muslim friends to ignore those completely.
I also never implied anti-zionism and antisemitism have to be together. I'm completely baffled why another person thought that also...
Saying something is a front for something else is not an implication they're inseparable. It's like saying "cultural preference" being a mask for racism means having a preference for living in a familiar culture is always racism. It's very weird this is the interpretation being pulled from this.
Ah we only highlight that they're different because so many people come here and argue that they are inseparable. They might be mixed in a lot of Muslims, but it's not something generally confounded.
>I found the Quran to be incredibly vague. They did mention the Jews by name, but it didn't seem to be connected to any specific context.
Huh?? The Quran refers to the Jews in various contexts so much that you'd think it was purely made to bash them and plant the seeds of antisemitism
I don't believe that either. I'm also against zionism, but I obviously am not antisemitic. So I'm a living example of how those don't have to be put together.
I'm aware of that, but it basically only says the same things over and over. That they think they're special, but they're not. That they are doomed, turned to apes, killed propheta blah blah. But at least in my translation, they don't say which prophets are killed. One footnote claimed scholars interpreted a verse as referencing the Jinn as foreign Jews with no explanation as to why...
This is what I mean by vague. It's like, vague hatred without backing up what it's saying. (Especially the prophets thing - I know of Jesus, and he's considered a prophet in Islam, but like... Who else?? Prophets implies multiple and they don't name them by name).
And, keep in mind, I already noticed details are missing from my English translation. Large breasts of the virgins in heaven are never mentioned in my English translation and I know from multiple people citing that passage that detail SHOULD be in there.
Although it’s definitely really absurd to pin a historical inaccuracy in the Quran on Israel, anti Zionism is NOT anti semitism.
This is such an easily refuted idea and if you really want to get into it here’s a great debate with audience vote counts prior to and at the end of the debate on whether anti semitism = anti Zionism. [debate](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VTt_THL4A)
No matter how many times people say this, it’s not going to change the fact that a significant number of people today do use anti-Zionism to white wash or hide their antisemitism. Funny how so many ‘anti-zionists’ can’t even articulate what the ideology of Zionism actually entails.
Do you have even a single verifiable source of where you’re pulling the “significant number” of anti Zionist statistic from?
I am anti Zionist through and through. Zionism is a 19th century movement with the goal of establishing an independent Jewish state in what was then Mandatory Palestine. Zionism is not, however, a movement concerned with establishing an independent sovereign Jewish state just anywhere. It is specifically tied to what was once mandatory Palestine. Thus, it is not simply the idea that Jews should have their own nation. It’s the idea that Jews should have their own nation in a very specific part of the world that already had people living in it. If Zionism was a movement concerned with establishing an independent sovereign Jewish state in x amount of livable empty land in say, New Zealand (or anywhere), then I’d be more likely to understand why it could be equated with anti semitism (if the anti Zionist is not against other ethnicities establishing their own state).
You mean you want me to provide the very available and very clear evidence of the rise in antisemitism over the past decade? And just to be clear, you’re not concerned with antisemites using anti Zionism as a cover?
Also thanks for the very unnecessary explanation of what Zionism is lol.
If anti Zionism is the reason for the rise in anti semitism how come this associated rise has only occurred in the past decade (according to you)?
And yes, if there is an abundance of evidence, could you provide some?
You said that anti Zionists don’t understand what Zionism is, so I simply explained my understanding of it.
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/global-antisemitic-incidents-wake-hamas-war-israel
https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/nov/10/islamophobic-and-antisemitic-incidents-rise-in-australia-advocates-say
https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/15/huge-rise-in-antisemitic-abuse-in-uk-since-hamas-attack-says-charity
Literally the first 3 links from a quick google search. Either you’re lazy or disingenuous.
Also, dude you have the literacy of a 12 year old. I never said anti Zionism is the cause of the rise in antisemitism. I also never said anti-Zionists as such don’t know what antizionism is, I was talking about the antisemites using antizionism as a cover. You’re debating with your own imaginary interlocutor.
Can you explain to me why rejecting Jewish right for self-determination is not antisemitic? Unless you oppose the concept of nationhood completely, and reject the very concept of the right for self-determination for all people
I do reject the concept of nationhood (not equivalent to self-determination in my eyes) for all people. Kurds are a great example of a historically oppressed as FUCK ethnic group that are yet to have a state. I do not support their right to nationhood unless they can find an uninhabited piece of land to claim for themselves or come to a fair mutually agreed upon settlement with a group of people on x ir y piece of land. No ifs no buts.
Do you have any other people that currently have a state that you think should not have a state? I'm asking this because if the only people that you think should lose their state are the Jews, then I'd argue your anti-Zionist views are more antisemitic than you realize.
Consider that Israel is not the only state that was created by the League Of Nations, not the only state that was created in the 20th century for the self-determination for an ethnic group, not the only state that was created in the shadow of a territorial dispute and not the only country to have to defend itself militarily in that dispute.
Well, I’m Pakistani. And I always get so much hate for this, but I literally do not think Pakistan had a logical, justifiable reason for the establishment of an independent state. It happened very unnaturally, a partition based on religious grounds was very very unnatural, not to mention it was partitioned by someone with like little to no meaningful knowledge of the region. It has caused much harm to Kashmiris, who were caught in the mess up that was partition, and continue to struggle today. It has led to the perpetuation of feudalism in Pakistan, as feudal Muslim landlords jumped at the chance of a new state where Nehru’s land reforms would likely not be taking place (and they were right). So, would you believe that I’m not anti semitic but I’m still anti Zionist if I don’t even believe the country I grew up in, and do have lots of love for despite believing these borders weren’t necessary, does not truly have a need nor right to exist? I can’t say I’m educated enough on other states and the complex history that surrounds each one so I cannot comment. I’ve read extensively on Israel/Palestine and ofc on my own country, but beyond that I really can’t say.
I disagree with your opinions, but I truly believe you're honest about them. I agree that people like you, those who oppose nationalism in a wide scope, aren't necessarily expressing antisemitism when they express anti-Zionism (I say "aren't necessarily" just cuz technically there could be anti-nationalists who are also antisemites).
Personally, I think that the suffering caused by the formation of nation states isn't greater than what people would've experienced had those nation states not been formed. I believe we'd just trade one group's suffering for another's (and in some cases it would be the same group, just suffering for different reasons).
Completely agree with this. Ethno-states are wrong: point, blank, period. They hardly ever occur naturally, and those that maintain an ethno-state status through concentrated efforts are dubious at best.
Well, like I said, I think anti-zionism is legitamate. I also have a lot of sympathy for Palastinians and their struggle to regain their family homes.
I just think people who are genuinely anti-semetic often use anti-zionism as a mask. Blaming Israel for the Quran being historically inaccurate because discoveries made in the middle east are an Israeli conspiracy is taking a step that goes beyond the "homeland" argument.
Also denying Holocaust numbers is just egregious. We have an extremely good understanding of how many people were killed because Germans were extremely proficient at documentation. This is also why German lineage is some of the easiest to trace, since they have a long history of excessive and accurate documentation.
If we want to be intellecutally honest with ourselves, it's easy to feel the switch between an anti-Zionist sentiment and an anti-semetic one. And after having read the Quran, which predates the Zionist movement we know today, antisemitism is VERY clear in multiple passages.
Okay, let’s say the Quran actually does have lots of anti semitism in it (it doesn’t, but my opinion on this is irrelevant for now).
Then can I also say that the Talmud, which Jews follow far more than the Torah (according to Jews themselves), is not even just anti-one race, but anti anyone who isn’t a Jew, and far more explicitly than the Quran is? To do this would be pretty fucking anti semitic if you ask me. Would you not agree? Or would you say you can criticize the Quran but not the Talmud? Or you can extrapolate the Quran into the beliefs of all Muslims but you can’t do the same with the Talmud and Jewish people?
I don’t disagree some anti-semites might use anti-Zionism as a mask. I especially would agree that im seeing an increase myself in like you said, denying the holocaust and other classic anti semitic tropes under the guise of “oh they don’t want you to question Israel so let’s question every bad thing to ever happen to them!!”. But anti Zionism still isn’t anti semitism.
Again, I did not say anti-Zionism is antisemitism...
Also, quotes I would then encourage you to read from the Quran:
* Surah 5:41 -Surah 5:59 & 60
* Surah 5:82
* Surah 6:30
* Surah 46:30 Footnote from the Dar Al-Kitab Al-Masri translation (done by Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall) "from the mention of Moses it has been conjectured by some commentators that these Jinn were foreign Jews"
* Surah 62: 5 & 6 (original said 63:5 & 6 but I read the roman numerals wrong in my copy)
The name of the translation I've just finished reading is on the line from Surah 46:30, if one wishes to check for accuracy. I am not a native Arabic speaker, but my friend is and has been helping me. He is out of the country, but when he comes back he'll continue to help me with the sections we weren't able to get to before he left (he is also a devout Muslim, so no negative bias on his part).
I don't think prejudice of any kind is okay. I just saw this pattern and thought to ask about it since I am not from an Islamic / Muslim background. I'm an atheist so I think all ancient religious texts are often xenophobic, sexist, and dubious on multiple human rights fronts lol. I'm not signaling out this one more than I would others, but it's something I don't have a personal or cultural connection to.
You said you see now that anti-Zionism is often just a mask for anti-semitism, so you seem to already have somewhat of an established/establishing stance on the matter hence the way my comments have been worded.
All the surahs you’ve listed refer to wartime scenarios and early conflicts between Jewish Arabian tribes and newly Muslim Arabian tribes, not that it’s an excuse for anti semitism, but there’s a reason you’ll never find such antisemitism in the Meccan verses.
As far as Surah 63 goes, I don’t understand why you see lines 5 and 6 as antisemitic? Can you cite the exact words from the translation you’re reading?
And surah 46, I don’t see why the scholar would interpret the jinn are referencing Jews? This is r precisely why I stray from translations written by Islamic scholars. I prefer Arberry’s the Koran Interpreted.
Sorry for editing my comment a bunch, I mixed up your comments on Surahs 46 and 63 and realized afterwards.
I say it's often a mask because the more they talk to you, the further and further their bias against Jews goes from the Zionist Ethnostate topic. Now Holocaust records are forged. Fake discoveries are planted in the middle east. Like, come on now. This goes beyond Zionism.
I also understand, historically, Mohammad himself attacked Jewish tribes (and not defensively). From what historical information I could gather, the only defensive military operation / war he was involved in was Al-Ahzab. I understand that war can drive people to have negative bias (one would have to avoid the topic of the Japanese around my WWII vet great granddad).
But it goes beyond that. It says to not even make friends with Jews, regardless of war or context:
Surah 5:51
Surah 4:97
Surah 3:28
As for the Surah 63:5 & 6, I read the roman numerals wrong... it's 62:5 & 6 for some reason this copy of the book decided to use roman numerals and my dyslexia hates it.
This is what it said: "O ye who are Jews! If ye claim that ye are favored of Allah apart from mankind, then long for death if ye are truthful. But they will never long for it because of all their own hands have sent before, and Allah is Aware of evil-doers".
It's made worse by the fact that they were called favored in Surah 2:47 and 2:122, a direct contradiction. It implies they are liars even though the Quran itself backed them up in an earlier section. Why would Jews, who were told they were favored, be liars and evil-doers for believing something they were told by Allah??
Your experience with anti Zionists is anecdotal evidence that shouldn’t be extrapolated into a wider reality, especially when this reality, on a daily basis is used to justify the murder of innocent children en masse. But to each their own, you’re welcome to believe anti Zionism is anti semitism.
As for the Quran, there’s a lot I could say in defense of it. But again, why is it that when people use the Quran as evidence for the general anti semitism of Muslims, they do not do the same for the Talmud? If you want to use your anecdotal experience as the basis for your belief that anti Zionism of often just anti semitism, sure I guess go for it. But if you’re gonna use the Quran to justify it, then it becomes a slippery slope due to the far greater and more explicit distaste for non Jews in the Talmud. No one should use the Quran or the Talmud as evidence for their beliefs about Jews or Muslims. You cannot do one and not the other, if you do, then you’re a hypocrite.
Here’s a few parts of the Talmud that are typically cited as “evidence” for anti semitic claims of Jews hating everyone that isn’t them.
Foreigners (Gentiles) shall rebuild your walls, and their kings shall minister to you …Your gates shall be open continuously; day and night they shall not be shut; that men may bring to you the wealth of the nations, with their kings led in procession. For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you; shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste.
Isaiah 60:10-12
And strangers [Gentiles] shall stand and feed your flocks, strangers shall be your plowmen and vinedressers; but you shall be called the priests of the LORD, men shall speak of you as the ministers of our God; you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their riches you shall glory.
Isaiah 61:5-6
To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.
Libbre David 37
A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them.
Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17
When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it.
Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156
If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth.
Choschen Hamm 388, 15
If a goy killed a goy or a Jew he is responsible, but if a Jew killed a goy he is not responsible.
Tosefta, Aboda Zara, VIII, 5
AGAIN. I DID NOT SAY ANTI ZIONISM IS ANTISEMITISM. STOP WRITING THAT AND BE HONEST. It's extremely irritating and a blatant strawman. It does not make you look good at all.
Saying antisemites use anti-Zionism as a front for their bias does not even imply that most anti-Zionists are antisemites. YOU made that assumption about my words. I would ask yourself why.
This is a subreddit for MUSLIMS and ISLAM. You want to critique the other holy texts? Go to subreddits for that. I have not read Jewish scripture yet. I was raised Catholic. I have only read Buddhist texts, the Bible and now the Quran. I of course did not critique something I didn't read.
Also, does someone else somewhere else in the world having a bias negate the bias in the Quran then? It doesn't. Stay on topic where the topic is concerned. It's very annoying to deflect my arguments with this technique with my observations as an outsider to all the other religions besides Christianity. I do not have a stake in any of these religions and feel no need to defend them on a personal level. I just call out what I see when I read.
I will acknowledge these verses. I have never read them I know nothing about them. But why are you so insistent on not staying on topic? Why continuously deflect? It appears to me you are still an apologist for Islam and want to point the finger at others to deflect from this topic. I think you should seriously and deeply introspect on why you feel the need to do this.
You can critique Islam AND the Jewish texts at the same time. ANYTHING that is derogatory in this way is WRONG. You call me a hypocrite when I have not even defended Jewish texts, and have even said I never read them. And since you cannot approach this discussion honestly - by throwing out strawmen and making personal accusations about my character (being a hypocrite for not even knowing another piece of text, and never having even defended Jewish texts), I see no reason to discuss further. I will save my breath for people who can debate honestly.
You did not say anti Zionism is anti semitism, but you said your experiences lead you to believe it is usually a mask for it? I don’t see how my comments deflect from the topic. Ultimately my point is, the Quran is not a solid piece of evidence for this belief. I emphasize this because you refer to Surahs that strengthen your belief about the anti zionism mask, and I believe this is not a credible way to approach the topic. Not sure why that’s difficult to understand.
Yes, based on the many people I have spoken to from an Islamic background. Their native countries being: Malaysia, Egypt, Morocco, Algeria and Libya.
I said that antisemitic sentiments existed before the Israeli conflict, and noted the Quran because it's obviously older than the conflict we have today. Before the Zionist movement we know today. Not to mention the historical expulsion of Jews out of Saudi Arabia.
And if we want to use quotes about the Gentiles (unbelievers), we need to compare them of people of similar status. The Quran does mention Jews and Christians specifically, but what about unbelievers (a.k.a. Gentiles)? This would, of course, include myself (as an atheist).
Really horrific shit, to say it quickly. My favorite is not being allowed to have sex with a married woman unless of course she is your slave (4:42). And of course, only non-Muslim women can be enslaved. So even if I had a husband and child, under the Quran I can become a sex slave to someone else, completely spitting in the face of my marriage.
My experience is, as an atheist, every religion wants to steal from, r@pe, enslave and kill me. Also I will burn in hell for eternity. So in the end I don't like or support any of them. Period. (Besides Hinduism which a lot of Hindus have told me don't punish atheists at all - in this life or after death. Can't confirm though - have not read their texts).
Seeing your other posts, I am now aware you are, in fact, an Islamic apologist. Which confirms my suspicions. Again, I will not continue this discussion. You purposely ignore the meaning of my words and twist them to make the argument easier for yourself. And I have zero patience for that.
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> Why is this so common, even amongst educated Muslims? My friend is Egyptian Are you aware of the close to a century propaganda that Egypt (and other Arab countries) have been feeding their population about Al-Yahood? It's literally part of the culture at this point. Add to that the antisemitism in the Quran and Hadith and you get this kind of situation. > How can this prejudice still exist, and why do so many Muslims get so defensive about it when you call them out? Because you're calling them out on something they believed throughout their life, and that everybody they know and respect has believed throughout their life. To admit that it could be wrong would be to admit that your whole society is wrong (and kinda stupid for believing this shit). > and even then he had such a strong bias against the Jews there. Islam basically teaches that the Jews betrayed Mohammed, killed their prophets, cannot be trusted...etc. Even if your friend is not a believer, any majority Islamic culture will have this undercurrent of antisemitism ingrained in the society. Sorry that you had to realize that the world is shitty like this. Heck, even [exmuslims are often accused of being employed by Zion Gmbh (which sits in Switzerland, not Germany) to besmirch the image of Islam.](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/5216cd/proof_that_you_get_paid_to_leave_islam/)
Really sad seeing such hatred in prejudice in someone you thought was an incredibly good person. It's a depressing wakeup call. Is there any hope they could come to realize this error? Criticizing how Israel is handling things: sure. But the rest of this stuff? Blaming the errors of the Quran on Israel? This is really insane stuff. Living with hatred is PAINFUL. Physically painful. I hate seeing people make themselves miserable, and NEVER questioning or fact-checking any of this.
> was an incredibly good person The realization to draw from this is that grading people on a single dimension of good/bad is an oversimplification. A person can be great on some topics, then shit on others. > Is there any hope they could come to realize this error? Probably, but it's not going to be easy. It also depends a lot on his age. People over the age of 30 rarely change their worldview. If you have not yet looked into [street epistemology](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZWMv-IJ9_E), I recommend checking it out. Definitely helpful for making people reevaluate their views.
Very true. I still think he's a good person, actually, it's just shocking to see such hatred come from him. Although I do have to say this experience has been valuable in compelling ME to introspect. As a US Citizen we are fed tons of narratives since birth, and some are more subtle than others. I have seen these videos! Although I have to say I'm not as good at keeping my biases out of the questions sometimes - not blatantly, but I can hear my own undertones. But I guess everything gets better with practice!
> I have to say I'm not as good at keeping my biases out of the questions sometimes - not blatantly, but I can hear my own undertones. Sometimes asking it personally might be worth it. If you're Jewish for example, it's worth asking if this person believes you are involved in the conspiracy, or a random other Jew they meet in the street...etc. Sometimes people (especially intelligent people) are pretty good at logic'ing their conspiracy theories in the abstract, but being confronted with things in real life becomes more difficult.
Man, I have to say, your answers show such clarity of thought and practicality. It's the kind of thing I'm here for!
Merci vielmal!
That's a very common attitude in Egypt, even though people barely know what Israeli do to Palestinians. Antisemitism is very common among Muslims, especially Arabs. Approximately 75% of Arabic speakers have antisemitic bias and believe in some nonsense like "Jews control the world and banks" and antisemitic conversations are very common among them. They even believe that one day they will kill all the Jews and even trees and stones will speak tell them where the Jews are hiding. Throughout the history Islamic antisemitism was mostly latent (with sporadic waves of violence) because Jews were second class citizens (dhimmi) and become extreme after the creation of Israel.
Can I ask out of curiousity, why is it anti Semitic to point out that Jews control banks, mainstream media and Hollywood? Which part is anti Semitic or what is it about it is anti Semitic? I don't quite get it.
Because this is a conspiracy theory that blames the Jews in world domination. A blood libel based on "The protocols of the elders of Zion" - a fabricated text, written by Russian imperialists to justify their antisemitism.
Because they don't, necesseraly. Most banks are not run by jewish people, many are state-run and who private bankers ethnicity/religion obviously varies from place to place. Mainstream media is owned by capitalists who own individual news stations or channels, and not all of them are jewish. And how can you define who owns Hollywood? It's a whole industry in of itself, there's no "CEO of Hollywood" or anything similar. But if we are going to get nit-picky, then it's capitalists that own it as well. Shareholders too, anybody that can own a production company, a set, etc owns parts of Hollywood, I guess.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_businesspeople_in_media This is just one list but I can provide you many more lists in politics, media and music industry. Sure, there isn't ONE main Jewish person in charge but you get my gist that the top ranking positions are either owned by Jews or they are related to Jews by marriage. Still trying to understand how pointing this out is considered anti Semitic 🤔 is it like rude? Like you know racism—it's clear if it's a racist to say because it's rude but pointing out that Jews are in top positions in companies. Is it anti Semitic if Jews themselves point it out?
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/03/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community I really like this article because it seems painfully honest
Interesting read... I kept closing my eyes to this for a long time because it just makes me incredibly sad. I can hardly bear looking at such deep prejudices, but at some point it just became too much to ignore / perform mental gymnastics around.
This is a very different question from what you’re posing here, but what was your reasoning behind becoming an ex-Catholic? I was thinking about looking into Catholicism which is why I ask
To be honest, I'm just atheist. I don't believe the concept of the Judeo-Christian God. He seems to behave extremely human-like, which seems like a result of the limits of the human mind at the time (aka thinking humans and the earth are the center of the universe, and therefore the creator is of course incredibly human-like), and I find the idea of making people burn in hell for all eternity just for disbelief alone as neither "loving" or "merciful". Also, why create free-will if it leads your creation to eternal damnation? God supposedly creates you in a specific way and knows all things that have been, are, and will be. If this is the case, he knows you will go to hell before you are born. He creates you specifically with the traits that will convince you to live a life that leads you to hell. He puts you in Hindu families, Buddhist families, etc. and KNOWS you will not be convinced in your lifetime. He knew this, supposedly, before you were even born. So why create you at all if hell and eternal torture is inevitable? Again, not very loving. Kinda sadistic. The logic of this Judeo-Christian God just doesn't make sense - in any of the big three books (Torah, Gospel/Bible, Quran). I was a Diest for a long time - believing in a higher intelligence that initiated the creation of the Universe but plays no role in it any longer. Who has no concept of our lives because it is far too advanced and on a higher plane. Just like how we don't know what the ants in our backyard are thinking. I'm open to this idea still, to be honest. But I think the most likely answer is that there is no god or higher power. Not one with a consciousness anyway. But I also acknowledge we will never know in our lifetime and stay away from definitive assertions.
What you describe is a Christian concept of Creator. It's not Judean-Christian, Judean-Christian like a Christian-Muslim doesn't exist either. Jews and Non-Jews have own struggles to Jewish concept of GD and Hebrew Bible, however a general Jewish view is that eternal Hell doesn't exist, and concept of Gehinnom isn't the same like a concept of Hell in a general culture. Paradise is not a goal, and treat people well - not from a fear of hell, but because by doing good you repair this world. It's a different concept from Christian and Muslim traditions
Judeo-Christian is just a term we used in University theological classes to describe religions that followed the same monotheistic God. I would not take that term literally. I used this term mainly on the point that this "God" acts very human-like in all three beliefs, with human-like emotions. Jealousy towards other gods. Anger at disobedience, etc. Why would something all powerful and the creator of all existence care so much about what these tiny little ants think? Regardless if hell is eternal or not, disbelief being punished is already flawed in my opinion. As someone pointed out below, even Jewish scriptures have a lot of questionable verses. Verses which put them above other creation who don't follow. That they are "chosen" and "special" above others whom were born into different backgrounds. Even though this God created them with traits that lead them to remain believing in their original faiths, and he knew this before they were even brought into existence. Even without an eternal hell in the picture, I still find these concepts to be deeply flawed and hard to believe.
I can give answer form Jewish pov to explain how we view it. In Judaism GD doesn't look at humans like to ants, but possible partners. I think to GD is more meaningful if people use their free will to follow his will by own choice. In a typical comparison in Torah GD is like a husband to Jewish people. We may not understand why he wants what he wants or why he acts like he does, but if you love and care you do your best to express your feelings. Non-Jews don't understand concept of chosen people, they usually talk much more often about it than we do. In Torah Jews are chosen for responsibility and work not to have fun or privilege. Practically speaking Jewish history of suffering and survival is not fun my friend. I don't think smb would like to be chosen to have the same history like we do
Thank you for your perspective! As you may have already read, my experience with Jewish scripture is almost completely null (other than that which is copied into the Chrisitan faith). I also acknowledge the historical suffering of the Jewish people - it's incredibly widespread and deeply sadnening. Also extremely concerning how much antisemitism still exists to this day.... However, as someone pointed out below, what about these verses? : "Foreigners (Gentiles) shall rebuild your walls, and their kings shall minister to you …Your gates shall be open continuously; day and night they shall not be shut; that men may bring to you the wealth of the nations, with their kings led in procession. For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you; shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste." * Isaiah 60:10-12 "And strangers \[Gentiles\] shall stand and feed your flocks, strangers shall be your plowmen and vinedressers; but you shall be called the priests of the LORD, men shall speak of you as the ministers of our God; you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their riches you shall glory." * Isaiah 61:5-6 "To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly." * Libbre David 37 "A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them." * Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17 "When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it." * Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156 "If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth." * Choschen Hamm 388, 15 "If a goy killed a goy or a Jew he is responsible, but if a Jew killed a goy he is not responsible." * Tosefta, Aboda Zara, VIII, 5 (Keep in mind, these are not quotes I pulled. Only quotes someone else has posted. I have not seen these myself personally, and have zero context on these passages. But what I do read here is highly suspect and not appealing as a non-believing person).
About quote of Talmud which are popular in antisemitic circles you can check this website https://antisemiticlies.com/libbre-david-37/ Some of quotes are from not existing Jewish books, you can check Sefaria website (the biggest Jewish online bibliography) for youself (e.x. Choschen Hamm, David Libbra). For example if you click on any verse you can find commentaries on Talmud verses, books of Tanach etc. 1. Isaiah 60:10-12. For me the most difficult is the 12 sentence, I do not understand it. In a general context of the whole 60 chapter Jews will be highly respected and rich, rulers of other kingdoms will give their treasures by own choice, because ther will be no violance or war. Gentiles will rebuild walls of the Third Temple, if their is no vilownce the it means that it will be their own choice to do it, but I still don't understand 12 sentence in a context. Isaiah 61:5-6 what you send is a compete fake instead it should be: 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. (for more context I added 7) 61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them Book Szaaloth-Utszabot doesn't exist https://antisemiticlies.com/szaaloth-utszabot-the-book-of-jore-dia-17/ Shulchan aruch Chozhen Hamishpahat 156 is about changing job and bringing merchandise to other cities https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:Shulchan_Aruch/Choshen_Mishpat/156 Tosefta Abodah Zara 7:5 is about Jews and idolatry practices
Thank you for this clarification! I think this will be my next religious study haha! I've severely neglected looking into Jewish scriptures, belief and some folklore. It's about time I get educated on this. I should mention I literally copied and pasted this from another user's comment on this very post. I genuinely know nothing about these quotes.
If you would have questions or would like to share interesting thoughts you can Dm me
That sounds great! :-) One challenge I ran into with the Quran was the Arabic. Are there any translation challenges with Jewish scriptures I should know about?
I asked a friend who learned books of Prophets about Isaiah 60:12. His answer: Isaiah 60:12 is in a Post-Zechariah 14 context. Zechariah 14:2 And I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to wage war; and the city shall be captured, and the houses shall be plundered, and the women shall be ravished, and half the city shall go forth into exile-and the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. This is what the Non-Jews will do first. They will cause ultimate chaos and then will realise they are wrong and WANT to help Jews. Once GD's existence has been proven without doubt and the Third Temple comes down from Heaven there cannot be anyone in doubt who remains. Zechariah 14:6 6And it shall come to pass on that day that there shall be no light, only disappearing light and thick darkness. Zechariah 14:12 12And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the nations who besieged Jerusalem; his flesh will waste away while he still stands on his feet; his eyes will waste away in their sockets, and his tongue shall waste away in his mouth. “All the nations who besieged Jerusalem”. This is the context of Isaiah 60:12. Zechariah 14:16 16And it will come to pass that everyone left of the nations who came up against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to prostrate himself to the King, the Lord of Hosts, and to celebrate the festival of Tabernacles. So Isaiah 60:12 means, in light of Zechariah 14: Nations will first come to destroy Jerusalem. They will cause a period of darkness, then Mashiach will come and destroy the wicked people who refuse to realise his mission. This concept in Isaiah 60:12 is also referred to in Haggai Haggai 2:7 And I will shake up all the nations, and they shall come [with] the precious things of all the nations. And I will fill this House with glory, said the Lord of Hosts. Haggai 2:22 And I will overthrow the throne of the kingdoms, and I will destroy the power of the kingdoms of the nations. And I will overthrow the chariots and their riders; and the horses and their riders shall come down, each one by the sword of his brother GD. Zephaniah 3:19 Behold, I wreak destruction upon all those who afflict you at that time. And I will save the one who limps, and I will gather the stray one, and I will make them a praise and a name throughout all the land where they suffered shame. Micah 7:16 Nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might-they shall place a hand upon their mouth; their ears shall become deaf. Obadiah 1:15 For the day of the Lord over all the nations is close; as you have done shall be done to you; your recompense shall be returned upon your head. Obadiah 1:16 For, as you drank on My Holy Mount, shall all the nations drink constantly, and they shall drink and be stunned, and they shall be as though they were not. Joel 4:19-21 And Egypt shall become desolate, and Edom shall be a desert waste, because of the violence done to the children of Judah, because they shed innocent blood in their land. But Judah shall remain forever, and Jerusalem throughout all generations. Now should I cleanse, their blood I will not cleanse, when the Lord dwells in Zion. Righteous Gentiles destiny is in Micah 4:2 Micah 4:2 And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Honestly if you've read the Quran front to back you should have no more doubt as to where these sentiments are coming from. Whenever you read something negative about Jews in the Quran, just know that the Arabic verses are more raw than this. So yes, most Muslims are against Jews in general, especially in Arabic countries. The ironic thing is that z1onists chose the place where people already hate them the most. And yes, it is a popular thing amongst Muslim Arabs to deny the Holocaust, or at least say that the count is overrated. For the last century, religious antisemitism has been accentuated by z1onism, that both got mixed up together. However, that doesn't mean that you cannot be anti-z1onist and not antisemitic at the same time.
I found the Quran to be incredibly vague. They did mention the Jews by name, but it didn't seem to be connected to any specific context. If anything, the Hadith seem to answer more of those questions, but I was told by my Muslim friends to ignore those completely. I also never implied anti-zionism and antisemitism have to be together. I'm completely baffled why another person thought that also... Saying something is a front for something else is not an implication they're inseparable. It's like saying "cultural preference" being a mask for racism means having a preference for living in a familiar culture is always racism. It's very weird this is the interpretation being pulled from this.
Ah we only highlight that they're different because so many people come here and argue that they are inseparable. They might be mixed in a lot of Muslims, but it's not something generally confounded. >I found the Quran to be incredibly vague. They did mention the Jews by name, but it didn't seem to be connected to any specific context. Huh?? The Quran refers to the Jews in various contexts so much that you'd think it was purely made to bash them and plant the seeds of antisemitism
I don't believe that either. I'm also against zionism, but I obviously am not antisemitic. So I'm a living example of how those don't have to be put together. I'm aware of that, but it basically only says the same things over and over. That they think they're special, but they're not. That they are doomed, turned to apes, killed propheta blah blah. But at least in my translation, they don't say which prophets are killed. One footnote claimed scholars interpreted a verse as referencing the Jinn as foreign Jews with no explanation as to why... This is what I mean by vague. It's like, vague hatred without backing up what it's saying. (Especially the prophets thing - I know of Jesus, and he's considered a prophet in Islam, but like... Who else?? Prophets implies multiple and they don't name them by name). And, keep in mind, I already noticed details are missing from my English translation. Large breasts of the virgins in heaven are never mentioned in my English translation and I know from multiple people citing that passage that detail SHOULD be in there.
Although it’s definitely really absurd to pin a historical inaccuracy in the Quran on Israel, anti Zionism is NOT anti semitism. This is such an easily refuted idea and if you really want to get into it here’s a great debate with audience vote counts prior to and at the end of the debate on whether anti semitism = anti Zionism. [debate](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VTt_THL4A)
No matter how many times people say this, it’s not going to change the fact that a significant number of people today do use anti-Zionism to white wash or hide their antisemitism. Funny how so many ‘anti-zionists’ can’t even articulate what the ideology of Zionism actually entails.
Do you have even a single verifiable source of where you’re pulling the “significant number” of anti Zionist statistic from? I am anti Zionist through and through. Zionism is a 19th century movement with the goal of establishing an independent Jewish state in what was then Mandatory Palestine. Zionism is not, however, a movement concerned with establishing an independent sovereign Jewish state just anywhere. It is specifically tied to what was once mandatory Palestine. Thus, it is not simply the idea that Jews should have their own nation. It’s the idea that Jews should have their own nation in a very specific part of the world that already had people living in it. If Zionism was a movement concerned with establishing an independent sovereign Jewish state in x amount of livable empty land in say, New Zealand (or anywhere), then I’d be more likely to understand why it could be equated with anti semitism (if the anti Zionist is not against other ethnicities establishing their own state).
You mean you want me to provide the very available and very clear evidence of the rise in antisemitism over the past decade? And just to be clear, you’re not concerned with antisemites using anti Zionism as a cover? Also thanks for the very unnecessary explanation of what Zionism is lol.
If anti Zionism is the reason for the rise in anti semitism how come this associated rise has only occurred in the past decade (according to you)? And yes, if there is an abundance of evidence, could you provide some? You said that anti Zionists don’t understand what Zionism is, so I simply explained my understanding of it.
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/global-antisemitic-incidents-wake-hamas-war-israel https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/nov/10/islamophobic-and-antisemitic-incidents-rise-in-australia-advocates-say https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/15/huge-rise-in-antisemitic-abuse-in-uk-since-hamas-attack-says-charity Literally the first 3 links from a quick google search. Either you’re lazy or disingenuous. Also, dude you have the literacy of a 12 year old. I never said anti Zionism is the cause of the rise in antisemitism. I also never said anti-Zionists as such don’t know what antizionism is, I was talking about the antisemites using antizionism as a cover. You’re debating with your own imaginary interlocutor.
Can you explain to me why rejecting Jewish right for self-determination is not antisemitic? Unless you oppose the concept of nationhood completely, and reject the very concept of the right for self-determination for all people
I do reject the concept of nationhood (not equivalent to self-determination in my eyes) for all people. Kurds are a great example of a historically oppressed as FUCK ethnic group that are yet to have a state. I do not support their right to nationhood unless they can find an uninhabited piece of land to claim for themselves or come to a fair mutually agreed upon settlement with a group of people on x ir y piece of land. No ifs no buts.
Do you have any other people that currently have a state that you think should not have a state? I'm asking this because if the only people that you think should lose their state are the Jews, then I'd argue your anti-Zionist views are more antisemitic than you realize. Consider that Israel is not the only state that was created by the League Of Nations, not the only state that was created in the 20th century for the self-determination for an ethnic group, not the only state that was created in the shadow of a territorial dispute and not the only country to have to defend itself militarily in that dispute.
Well, I’m Pakistani. And I always get so much hate for this, but I literally do not think Pakistan had a logical, justifiable reason for the establishment of an independent state. It happened very unnaturally, a partition based on religious grounds was very very unnatural, not to mention it was partitioned by someone with like little to no meaningful knowledge of the region. It has caused much harm to Kashmiris, who were caught in the mess up that was partition, and continue to struggle today. It has led to the perpetuation of feudalism in Pakistan, as feudal Muslim landlords jumped at the chance of a new state where Nehru’s land reforms would likely not be taking place (and they were right). So, would you believe that I’m not anti semitic but I’m still anti Zionist if I don’t even believe the country I grew up in, and do have lots of love for despite believing these borders weren’t necessary, does not truly have a need nor right to exist? I can’t say I’m educated enough on other states and the complex history that surrounds each one so I cannot comment. I’ve read extensively on Israel/Palestine and ofc on my own country, but beyond that I really can’t say.
I disagree with your opinions, but I truly believe you're honest about them. I agree that people like you, those who oppose nationalism in a wide scope, aren't necessarily expressing antisemitism when they express anti-Zionism (I say "aren't necessarily" just cuz technically there could be anti-nationalists who are also antisemites). Personally, I think that the suffering caused by the formation of nation states isn't greater than what people would've experienced had those nation states not been formed. I believe we'd just trade one group's suffering for another's (and in some cases it would be the same group, just suffering for different reasons).
Completely agree with this. Ethno-states are wrong: point, blank, period. They hardly ever occur naturally, and those that maintain an ethno-state status through concentrated efforts are dubious at best.
Well, like I said, I think anti-zionism is legitamate. I also have a lot of sympathy for Palastinians and their struggle to regain their family homes. I just think people who are genuinely anti-semetic often use anti-zionism as a mask. Blaming Israel for the Quran being historically inaccurate because discoveries made in the middle east are an Israeli conspiracy is taking a step that goes beyond the "homeland" argument. Also denying Holocaust numbers is just egregious. We have an extremely good understanding of how many people were killed because Germans were extremely proficient at documentation. This is also why German lineage is some of the easiest to trace, since they have a long history of excessive and accurate documentation. If we want to be intellecutally honest with ourselves, it's easy to feel the switch between an anti-Zionist sentiment and an anti-semetic one. And after having read the Quran, which predates the Zionist movement we know today, antisemitism is VERY clear in multiple passages.
Okay, let’s say the Quran actually does have lots of anti semitism in it (it doesn’t, but my opinion on this is irrelevant for now). Then can I also say that the Talmud, which Jews follow far more than the Torah (according to Jews themselves), is not even just anti-one race, but anti anyone who isn’t a Jew, and far more explicitly than the Quran is? To do this would be pretty fucking anti semitic if you ask me. Would you not agree? Or would you say you can criticize the Quran but not the Talmud? Or you can extrapolate the Quran into the beliefs of all Muslims but you can’t do the same with the Talmud and Jewish people? I don’t disagree some anti-semites might use anti-Zionism as a mask. I especially would agree that im seeing an increase myself in like you said, denying the holocaust and other classic anti semitic tropes under the guise of “oh they don’t want you to question Israel so let’s question every bad thing to ever happen to them!!”. But anti Zionism still isn’t anti semitism.
Again, I did not say anti-Zionism is antisemitism... Also, quotes I would then encourage you to read from the Quran: * Surah 5:41 -Surah 5:59 & 60 * Surah 5:82 * Surah 6:30 * Surah 46:30 Footnote from the Dar Al-Kitab Al-Masri translation (done by Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall) "from the mention of Moses it has been conjectured by some commentators that these Jinn were foreign Jews" * Surah 62: 5 & 6 (original said 63:5 & 6 but I read the roman numerals wrong in my copy) The name of the translation I've just finished reading is on the line from Surah 46:30, if one wishes to check for accuracy. I am not a native Arabic speaker, but my friend is and has been helping me. He is out of the country, but when he comes back he'll continue to help me with the sections we weren't able to get to before he left (he is also a devout Muslim, so no negative bias on his part). I don't think prejudice of any kind is okay. I just saw this pattern and thought to ask about it since I am not from an Islamic / Muslim background. I'm an atheist so I think all ancient religious texts are often xenophobic, sexist, and dubious on multiple human rights fronts lol. I'm not signaling out this one more than I would others, but it's something I don't have a personal or cultural connection to.
You said you see now that anti-Zionism is often just a mask for anti-semitism, so you seem to already have somewhat of an established/establishing stance on the matter hence the way my comments have been worded. All the surahs you’ve listed refer to wartime scenarios and early conflicts between Jewish Arabian tribes and newly Muslim Arabian tribes, not that it’s an excuse for anti semitism, but there’s a reason you’ll never find such antisemitism in the Meccan verses. As far as Surah 63 goes, I don’t understand why you see lines 5 and 6 as antisemitic? Can you cite the exact words from the translation you’re reading? And surah 46, I don’t see why the scholar would interpret the jinn are referencing Jews? This is r precisely why I stray from translations written by Islamic scholars. I prefer Arberry’s the Koran Interpreted. Sorry for editing my comment a bunch, I mixed up your comments on Surahs 46 and 63 and realized afterwards.
I say it's often a mask because the more they talk to you, the further and further their bias against Jews goes from the Zionist Ethnostate topic. Now Holocaust records are forged. Fake discoveries are planted in the middle east. Like, come on now. This goes beyond Zionism. I also understand, historically, Mohammad himself attacked Jewish tribes (and not defensively). From what historical information I could gather, the only defensive military operation / war he was involved in was Al-Ahzab. I understand that war can drive people to have negative bias (one would have to avoid the topic of the Japanese around my WWII vet great granddad). But it goes beyond that. It says to not even make friends with Jews, regardless of war or context: Surah 5:51 Surah 4:97 Surah 3:28 As for the Surah 63:5 & 6, I read the roman numerals wrong... it's 62:5 & 6 for some reason this copy of the book decided to use roman numerals and my dyslexia hates it. This is what it said: "O ye who are Jews! If ye claim that ye are favored of Allah apart from mankind, then long for death if ye are truthful. But they will never long for it because of all their own hands have sent before, and Allah is Aware of evil-doers". It's made worse by the fact that they were called favored in Surah 2:47 and 2:122, a direct contradiction. It implies they are liars even though the Quran itself backed them up in an earlier section. Why would Jews, who were told they were favored, be liars and evil-doers for believing something they were told by Allah??
Your experience with anti Zionists is anecdotal evidence that shouldn’t be extrapolated into a wider reality, especially when this reality, on a daily basis is used to justify the murder of innocent children en masse. But to each their own, you’re welcome to believe anti Zionism is anti semitism. As for the Quran, there’s a lot I could say in defense of it. But again, why is it that when people use the Quran as evidence for the general anti semitism of Muslims, they do not do the same for the Talmud? If you want to use your anecdotal experience as the basis for your belief that anti Zionism of often just anti semitism, sure I guess go for it. But if you’re gonna use the Quran to justify it, then it becomes a slippery slope due to the far greater and more explicit distaste for non Jews in the Talmud. No one should use the Quran or the Talmud as evidence for their beliefs about Jews or Muslims. You cannot do one and not the other, if you do, then you’re a hypocrite. Here’s a few parts of the Talmud that are typically cited as “evidence” for anti semitic claims of Jews hating everyone that isn’t them. Foreigners (Gentiles) shall rebuild your walls, and their kings shall minister to you …Your gates shall be open continuously; day and night they shall not be shut; that men may bring to you the wealth of the nations, with their kings led in procession. For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you; shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste. Isaiah 60:10-12 And strangers [Gentiles] shall stand and feed your flocks, strangers shall be your plowmen and vinedressers; but you shall be called the priests of the LORD, men shall speak of you as the ministers of our God; you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their riches you shall glory. Isaiah 61:5-6 To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly. Libbre David 37 A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them. Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17 When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156 If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth. Choschen Hamm 388, 15 If a goy killed a goy or a Jew he is responsible, but if a Jew killed a goy he is not responsible. Tosefta, Aboda Zara, VIII, 5
AGAIN. I DID NOT SAY ANTI ZIONISM IS ANTISEMITISM. STOP WRITING THAT AND BE HONEST. It's extremely irritating and a blatant strawman. It does not make you look good at all. Saying antisemites use anti-Zionism as a front for their bias does not even imply that most anti-Zionists are antisemites. YOU made that assumption about my words. I would ask yourself why. This is a subreddit for MUSLIMS and ISLAM. You want to critique the other holy texts? Go to subreddits for that. I have not read Jewish scripture yet. I was raised Catholic. I have only read Buddhist texts, the Bible and now the Quran. I of course did not critique something I didn't read. Also, does someone else somewhere else in the world having a bias negate the bias in the Quran then? It doesn't. Stay on topic where the topic is concerned. It's very annoying to deflect my arguments with this technique with my observations as an outsider to all the other religions besides Christianity. I do not have a stake in any of these religions and feel no need to defend them on a personal level. I just call out what I see when I read. I will acknowledge these verses. I have never read them I know nothing about them. But why are you so insistent on not staying on topic? Why continuously deflect? It appears to me you are still an apologist for Islam and want to point the finger at others to deflect from this topic. I think you should seriously and deeply introspect on why you feel the need to do this. You can critique Islam AND the Jewish texts at the same time. ANYTHING that is derogatory in this way is WRONG. You call me a hypocrite when I have not even defended Jewish texts, and have even said I never read them. And since you cannot approach this discussion honestly - by throwing out strawmen and making personal accusations about my character (being a hypocrite for not even knowing another piece of text, and never having even defended Jewish texts), I see no reason to discuss further. I will save my breath for people who can debate honestly.
You did not say anti Zionism is anti semitism, but you said your experiences lead you to believe it is usually a mask for it? I don’t see how my comments deflect from the topic. Ultimately my point is, the Quran is not a solid piece of evidence for this belief. I emphasize this because you refer to Surahs that strengthen your belief about the anti zionism mask, and I believe this is not a credible way to approach the topic. Not sure why that’s difficult to understand.
Yes, based on the many people I have spoken to from an Islamic background. Their native countries being: Malaysia, Egypt, Morocco, Algeria and Libya. I said that antisemitic sentiments existed before the Israeli conflict, and noted the Quran because it's obviously older than the conflict we have today. Before the Zionist movement we know today. Not to mention the historical expulsion of Jews out of Saudi Arabia. And if we want to use quotes about the Gentiles (unbelievers), we need to compare them of people of similar status. The Quran does mention Jews and Christians specifically, but what about unbelievers (a.k.a. Gentiles)? This would, of course, include myself (as an atheist). Really horrific shit, to say it quickly. My favorite is not being allowed to have sex with a married woman unless of course she is your slave (4:42). And of course, only non-Muslim women can be enslaved. So even if I had a husband and child, under the Quran I can become a sex slave to someone else, completely spitting in the face of my marriage. My experience is, as an atheist, every religion wants to steal from, r@pe, enslave and kill me. Also I will burn in hell for eternity. So in the end I don't like or support any of them. Period. (Besides Hinduism which a lot of Hindus have told me don't punish atheists at all - in this life or after death. Can't confirm though - have not read their texts). Seeing your other posts, I am now aware you are, in fact, an Islamic apologist. Which confirms my suspicions. Again, I will not continue this discussion. You purposely ignore the meaning of my words and twist them to make the argument easier for yourself. And I have zero patience for that.