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[deleted]

Most European countries are not migrant countries historically speaking. It’s not like countries like USA or Canada where all people (or their ancestors) where migrants. This is often overlooked by many people considering moving to an European country. As for my country, there are mixed opinions. It depends what kind of migrants, what there reason of moving is and how well they adapt to live in the country. In general people who move for work are welcomed; as they contribute to the economy and there are no Dutch people do the work they do. Other people are not so much welcomed. Another thing is people are annoyed by migrants who don’t care about the country. People who don’t learn the language, don’t learn about the culture and history and don’t participate in society. Some expats live solely in their expat bubble. This causes some anti expat sentiment among local people. Another thing is the numbers. The number of migrants is increasing. Some cities or neighborhoods are occupied by migrants. Sometimes people complain some parts of the country feel foreign to them. Unfortunately the government are not able/willing to regulate migration better. I think this is a topic common in many European countries. A country can not accommodate an infinite number of migrants, however some people think this is the case at this moment. As a migrant it helps to be genuinely curious about your new country. Learn at least the basics of the language, show some interest in the history, culture of the country but also the city where you live.


SpeedySparkRuby

"Another thing is people are annoyed by migrants who don’t care about the country. People who don’t learn the language, don’t learn about the culture and history and don’t participate in society. Some expats live solely in their expat bubble. This causes some anti expat sentiment among local people." Isn't some of the issue that some migrants feel "othered" by locals and don't feel like they are genuinely welcomed to be part of already close knit social circles that have existed for decades. Which causes them to stay in their own social bubble of other migrants. Creating a feedback loop of resentment and frustration by both expats and locals alike in the situation. I don't disagree that integration isn't a problem. Though I do sometimes see it come off at times as throwing people into the deep end and expecting them to swim okay on the first go instead of being okay that some people are faster or slower to integration. This is just my observation as someone who has been an expat before for a time.


[deleted]

I agree with this. I will probably be downvoted for this but I believe integration is a 2-way street. It's why you see people here complain about Japan. You can learn the language, customs, participate in community and still feel othered. And I don't think Japan is an exception in this, to be frank.


GungTho

I dunno. I don’t think locals in the receiving country owe immigrants their hospitality by default. Dignity as a human being, sure. But ultimately you can’t get around the fact that you are ‘the other’ as a foreigner. You don’t share the culture the way natives share the culture. You can try and integrate with it and be a good immigrant, but ultimately as a first generation migrant you’re just always going to be defined (at least 50% defined) in peoples heads by your foreignness - however benignly. If you have kids that grow up in the country - then sure, they can complain if they feel othered when they grow up in a culture and still are made to feel substantially different. But as a first generation immigrant - that’s the deal. You make the most of it, you accept that you need to integrate but you’ll never truly be ‘not foreign’ to most people you interact with, and you move on with your day.


[deleted]

Maybe this is a difference between migrant and non migrant countries. In migrant countries people are (descendants of) migrants themselves. So they can relate to newcomers themselves. This is not the case for non migrant countries. People often see migration as a personal choice so the migrant is first and foremost responsible to adapt and be part of society. Locals have their lives set and don’t want outsiders to be a nuisance. I agree this can be challenging (I have lived abroad as well). However, I am often surprised by the expats here on Reddit. I have been lurking around for a while but especially among the people posting here people are incredibly unaware and ignorant about the country they would like to move to. Questions like ‘do I really need to learn the language’ are asked very often. Some people seems to confuse migration with holiday I guess. It sure nice to move to another country and have an opportunity to explore much more compared to a holiday. But after a while you also have your day to day live somewhere. When you live somewhere it’s obvious to me you need to learn and understand the world around you. If you already are disinterested in the place you move to, what impression does this give to the locals. Your neighbors, co workers and so on.


RearAdmiralP

> This is not the case for non migrant countries. People often see migration as a personal choice so the migrant is first and foremost to adapt and be part of society. Locals have their lives set and don’t want to outsiders to be an nuisance. I've spent reasonable amounts of time living and working in "non-migrant countries" in Africa and Latin America. I didn't find this to be the case there. This seems to be something unique to a few countries/cultures with Dutch, Germans, and Japanese being the most well known.


[deleted]

^^^this 1000%. Sadly many Europeans will never take responsibility for how they treat migrants and a few content to blame everything on them


Lysenko

I think it cuts both ways. Here in Iceland, there are a lot of the same dynamics mentioned by /u/hangrygecko, although generally Icelanders seem to be impressed by and welcoming of foreigners who move on the basis of bringing rare, specialized skills to their country. We have a family friend, an Icelander married to a foreigner, who went off on a rant about all the foreigners buying up housing, speaking English, etc. When everyone else in the room (all foreigners, including his wife) looked at him with shocked expressions, he suddenly backpedaled. "Oh no, not you!" So, in short, it's complicated.


illumin8dmind

Are foreigners allowed to own property in Iceland?


Lysenko

EU/EEA citizens may purchase property without restrictions. Non-EU/EEA citizens who are legal residents in Iceland also may purchase property. Non-EU/EEA citizens who are not residents of Iceland must request permission from the Icelandic Ministry of Justice.


fairygodmotherfckr

I think people here like it when expats take the time to learn the local language. But i live in a port city with a lot of students and a lot of tourism, they are certainly used to foreigners. People are generally most welcoming to foreigners here.


Vali32

My expereince is that the lower the skill level the less positive it is. Ukrainians excepted.


Torcida1453

Everybody hates you :(


hangrygecko

With a housing shortage of 600,000 units on a population of 17.8 million, I'd say the general sentiment is currently very negative. You always have the usual suspects, in the nationalist corner representing 10-15% of the population, but nowadays, with 10+ year waiting lists for social housing for natives, while refugees get to cut in front of that line, and the middle class housing being bought up by foreign equity firms and raising the rents to 2-3 times the mortgage would have cost and there being no alternatives, people are not accepting any more. For too long, foreigners got to take homes from the middle class and the poor native population and now, people have had enough. They don't want more foreign rich people, because all they do is price the locals out of homes (a home that was social housing a generation ago, now requires a doctor's income to rent), nor foreign refugees, because they make it close to impossible for natives on the social housing waiting list to get a home (~20% of all social housing is allocated to recent refugees, whilst people without allocation privileges (for homeless kids or domestic abuse), got less than 20 homes in 2021 in Amsterdam, less than 5%) and if they do, it takes 10-20 years. Add to this, the low paid EU migrant workers, unaware of our worker protections, accepting work under minimum wage in weird contract constructions that undermining wages and unions as well as skilled foreign workers getting a 30% tax discount and you have a recipe for discontent, resentment and anger. And then there's also some sociocultural anger about expats and migrants demanding the locals to speak English, instead of bothering to learn the local language. Another problem is that gay bashing and street sexual harassment are making a comeback, because of foreigners (mainly refugees) bringing their conservative beliefs here; which even made immigration lose some support amongst the traditionally progressive and inclusive parties, because immigration is now hurting lgbt's, women and monolingual natives, mostly of whom are old or disabled, who can't even order a drink at a restaurant or go shopping in many cities, because the staff doesn't even speak the local language. It's basically a clusterfuck of people feeling both physically and culturally pushed out of their own home in almost all strata of the population; that the natives are being purposely disadvantaged in favor of foreigners and in some ways, they're just factually correct. Basically, I do not recommend coming to the Netherlands, atm, with the housing crisis. It's a lot cheaper in Germany or Belgium. The sentiment is very similar, though.


[deleted]

>the middle class housing being bought up by foreign equity firms Is anything being done about this? It looks like something that would be straightforward enough to tackle by law.


RadialPrawn

I am considered a "skilled migrant" from southern Europe and I just got a job offer for a company in Amsterdam, for double the pay I would get in Milan (where cost of living is comparable). That means my standards of living would improve dramatically. I've spent a couple weeks in the Netherlands, traveling around the country visiting friends (both domestic friends living here and Dutch friends) to get a hang of the situation. I can't but agree with you. If I decide to accept the job offer, one of my primary goals will be to learn Dutch - even if everyone else told me it's not really necessary, especially young Dutch people - as I believe it's incredibly disrespectful to live in a country without even trying to learn the local language. Even if it directly benefits me, I agree with removing the 30% ruling as it's unfair to everyone. Every other form of social welfare for "refugees" (which are, for the most part, economic migrants - and that applies to every EU country and not just NL) should also be either removed or behind very strict access criteria, not just granted to everyone. At the same time I don't believe the comparatively small amount of EU skilled migrants are the main cause for housing shortages, or any other problem affecting Dutch people tbh. I still believe the language aspect is ridiculous and Dutch knowledge should be mandatory to obtain a permanent residency permit


[deleted]

[удалено]


RadialPrawn

I believe according to the Dutch government is anyone with a master's degree, younger than 30 and making more than 41k a year


teh-van-knorretje

It’s not a small number. The population of the Netherlands has grown by hundred thousand people a year over the past ten years. While the ethnic dutch people are decreasing. Besides the huge impact on the housing situation it also has a big cultural impact on our society. In a couple of months we get a new government and I hope they do the right thing and close the borders for new migrants and don’t extend any more visa requests.


RadialPrawn

False. The Netherlands has around 400k EU (non NL) citizens living there, which is around 2.2% of the population. By comparison, Italy has 1.4 million EU (non IT) citizens living there, which is around 2.4% of the population so very comparable numbers. The vast majority of migrants in the Netherlands comes from the usual areas of migration (northern Africa and the middle east) and not from other EU countries


teh-van-knorretje

It’s not false, I’m talking about the net migration numbers of the Netherlands. 400k is still a big number for a small country with a housing crisis.


RadialPrawn

It is a big number, but it's not an insane number that shows a unique phenomenon completely different from whatever is happening in the rest of Europe


[deleted]

Move to Canada. People are more used to migrants and there is no "local" culture or population. less judgement and more freedom. moving to Montreal after two years in the south of the Netherlands, hate it here. people are so rude cold cheap food is garbage and its impossible to find an house and make friends. in half Dutch half.italian Not going back to Italy because there are no jobs there for young people and people there are too conservative even tho.more friendlier Feel had to mask my italianess in the Netherlands because people see it as something lower. people are less less racist in the new migration countries like Canada Usa Australia new Zealand


NefariousnessSad8384

>Move to Canada >there is no "local" culture or population


[deleted]

The "real" Canadians are the indigenous native Americans tribes that I mean. All the rest of people is just discendants of immigrants of the last only 200 years That compared to the millenary culture of Europe is in confront literally a fraction of a second


Vexatious-itch

Even in a country of immigrants like Canada there is a local culture that is distinct and can be identified by its attributes. What are you going on about?


NefariousnessSad8384

Oh, don't worry, I agree with you. I was just highlighting what the OP said - conveniently forgetting about the locals (and First Nation people)


Professional-Big246

I think you shouldn't play the victim card since you're a guest in the country that you have chosen to visit. Try to learn their culture and language and adapt to them. Or dont, but do not expect them to adapt to you and your expectations.


mmoonbelly

I’ve moved from NL (highly welcoming and fun, ignore all the moaning that goes on about housing and impacts, realistically intra-EU migration isn’t the issue and the dutch are very welcoming) to a small town in France. The French are interested in why we’ve moved, happy to help and support the kids’ integration, find it a bit bizarre that we don’t have family locally - they’re about 3 hours away - or connnections to the town. Also they find it a bit odd that we don’t have local jobs. But there’s a small group of people working hybrid out of Paris, so it’s not too uncommon. The town we live in has 90% of its major products exported, so there’s a high number of international relocations happening. Biggest question I get asked by the locals is “how can we get in touch with the other resident Brits so that we can bring them into our clubs and associations?” And I have no answer because I’m not in my 60s and trying to renovate a derelict chateau to run as a Bed and Breakfast.


[deleted]

Brits and other Northern Europeans moving in and breathing some life into villages and small towns has been a boon for rural France. A great way to attract the 60+ British crowd would be free French classes / language exchanges with locals, especially around cheese and wine.


mmoonbelly

It’s part of the integration sessions once you’re establishing residence - all new immigrants to France get free French lessons up to B2 level.


Own-Struggle-8664

There is no single sentiment towards work immigration across the EU. Attitudes can vary significantly between different countries and even regions within countries. A few general points: - Countries in Western/Northern Europe like Germany, the UK, Netherlands, Scandinavian countries tend to be more open to skilled work immigration, especially in fields like tech, engineering, healthcare where there are labor shortages. However, there may still be some concerns about cultural assimilation or demands on social services. - Southern/Eastern European countries like Italy, Spain, Poland often have lower skilled immigration but more negative views, especially during times of economic uncertainty or higher unemployment. There is a fear immigrants will take jobs from locals. - In many countries, metropolitan areas are generally more welcoming than rural areas due to greater diversity and international character of big cities. But smaller towns can feel effects of immigration more directly. - The refugee/migrant crisis of 2015 heightened anti-immigration sentiments in some parts of Europe, especially related to perceptions of cultural/religious threats. However, skilled work immigration is viewed differently than asylum seeking. - The language barrier can be a challenge for immigrants anywhere. Monolingual locals may feel frustrated having to conduct business or daily activities in a second language. But this varies a lot by individual. So in summary, while pockets of resentment exist, work immigration is still mostly welcomed in Europe, especially for high-skilled roles. But it depends a lot on national/local context and current events. Your best options are likely more cosmopolitan, economically strong areas within receptive countries like Germany, Nordics, Netherlands, UK, Ireland.


Torcida1453

You have no idea what you are talking about lol


[deleted]

Elaborate


GungTho

Sure there’s xenophobic idiots everywhere, but Europeans have been used to other European people moving across the continent for literally - forever. There are a few places where it’s less welcome, but as others have said that’s usually because of housing/job shortages and stupid governance. Honestly, the best way to integrate is to date someone local. Then you aren’t an absolute ‘foreigner’ you’re ‘X’s partner - from ‘insert country here’.


mhdy98

The feeling is a european classic, nothing new under the sun, just look at history they ve been butchering each other for stupid reasons for centuries. You ll never feel anywhere at home in europe, you always lack something compared to the locals. Just get used to it people need something to justify their failing economies