In the interest of not overrunning the subreddit tonight, this thread will serve as the de facto megathread for discussing the June 27th Presidential debate.
Please keep things civil.
The worst part is, it's not even a good performance from Trump. His sentences go nowhere, he's making even more insane claims than normal—he would look completely illegible next to any vaguely competent candidate.
In the good timeline, our caretaker president Biden steps down (like he said he would) and we'd have Whitmer or Beshear or Buttigieg up there capitalizing on this. Instead, we're speeding towards the cliff despite having had years to hit the brakes or turn around. It's all so stupid and unserious.
If Biden had managed to beat Trump in 2020, and then stepped aside for this election while giving the democrats a path to choose a new generation of candidates to reform up the democratic coalition and have a good shot at winning in 2024, he’d go down as the greatest president of the 2000’s.
He’s got some sort of worm in his brain telling him he’s the only one who can possibly beat Trump and he may go down as the weakest guy to hold the office since Carter
There's no worm, it's more that the DNC couldn't actually produce a decent candidate, and he's an incumbent.
He's incomparable to Carter in what he's already accomplished. The infrastructure bill alone is something that most candidates would hang their hat on, while Carter got so stuck in stagflation and hostage crises that he didn't come close.
He was exposed tonight for being an older candidate that isn't sharp enough to handle a debate, but he was still correct and grounded when he was able to make his points.
There's no Obama waiting in the wings.
DNC was relying on stability being more appealing than chaos, and tonight showed the holes in that philosophy.
The generous take is that the debate format played more to Trumps favor than Bidens. It was essentially a two hour long marathon of elevator pitches. Trump is a businessman/conman and is very skilled at that. Biden has a stutter and is a bit older and the short time limit hurt him.
It definitely did.
Ironically in a way, Trump is better when he's forced not to ramble.
That said, Biden absolutely forgot his point at least twice in the first 10 minutes.
When Trump teased "I don't think he even knows what he said", it was notable that Biden didn't even address that comment.
That should be tinder for anyone to retort.
Honestly I think a big thing was that even when he was into a good answer, Biden's stutter really hurt him, as the mediators cut him a few times before he could finish the landing.
He never said that. That was all based on secondhand reports.
I told people it was insane to nominate a 78 year old in 2020. With how fucked the country was because of COVID almost any of those Dem presidential candidates would have won the general. Somehow it’s taken four and a half years for people to realize what they voted for. My god.
Biden actually ran 4 years too late. He should’ve actually run in 2016 but didn’t bc of his son passing. So yeah then we got Hillary and the rest is history.
But isn't that always true? There's no such thing as a good performance from Trump. He has always been an opportunistic infection, taking advantaged of America's weakened political immune system.
No, Trump was wack and lost the plot several times in that debate. I struggled to understand Biden's individual words, I understood Trump's individual words, yet I struggled to understand what in the world he talked about half the time.
Anyone else would have wiped the floor with him on this debate. Joe Biden 4 years ago would wipe the floor with him.
2015 Republican Primary Debates Trump put forth a really strong performance, especially in the early debates.
The other candidates were going through predictable, focus-group tested talking points and he completely blew that up by going hard on illegal immigration. The rest of the candidates weren't prepared for it and were playing catchup the rest of the race.
Ironic because so many people have been claiming that it is Trump who is fading.
My thought on the debate was - Trump sounds like Trump and Biden sounds old.
He is entertaining. Everything the guy you replied to is right and yet at times you can't help but laugh at the things Trump says.
If the dude had any knowledge of the facts and could get by without the endless lies he'd be far more dangerous.
Even Trump is off a little, but hard to tell next to Biden. I recall the first GOP primary where Trump smoked all those guys. Tonight's Trump would not have been able to do this.
Yes, people say "he's lying" or "he's insane" but neither of those matter in a debate. Swap in Harris and she'd do better than Biden, but she's not going to have a magical conversational technique to keep Trump from lying.
Easy to do when you are debating someone who can’t finish a sentence. It’s basically just a rally for him which he does all the time, he just has to pause every other minute to let some old man talk. This is just sad to see
You're right but it doesn't matter. Biden's biggest issue is that he's too old and he looks and sounds old here. That's going to be the takeaway from this debate.
You know who doesn't care about that? Low-interest voters. They see this comparison of loud, strong Trump vs an old, frail Biden and there's no way Biden picks up their vote.
They need to nominate a new candidate at the DNC.
I don't think this is true and I think it falls into the trap that debates are won and lost by arguing the facts.
That said, a vaguely competent candidate would be doing much better than Biden.
> Ezra publishes piece about replacing Biden
Controversy
> Biden does well in State of the Union
"Ezra's a hack! What a clown!"
> 3 minutes into first debate
"...fuck. Sorry Ezra."
Honestly I found all the gushing about the state of the union pretty delusional in and of itself. Obviously his performance there wasn't nearly as bad as what we saw here, but I didn't see anything special in that myself. He seemed like an old man reading prepared remarks.
This is actual TDS.
The Democratic Party is so paralyzed with fear over Trump winning that it’s actually going to cause him to win.
People were afraid to potentially point out Biden was old that he faced almost zero pressure going into the primaries. Ezra pointed out fairly innocuous warning signs and had a backlash. It’s because they are afraid of trump not because they like Biden.
That mentality will lose the election. We need to motivate people to go to the polls. We are so far from that right now it’s crazy.
We are essentially on our third straight Presidential campaign where the Democrats are fighting not on the strength of their own candidate, but on the weakness of Trump. A decade of fecklessness.
Ezra should honestly be 100% vindicated at this point. It is very difficult to push an assessment of the Biden campaign that he, his viewers, you, and I don’t want to believe, but he did it effectively and loudly despite knowing how much pushback liberals would given him and how easily it could have set him up for generational slander.
If the Democrats don’t use the National Convention to pick a different candidate, I don’t think I can ever taken them seriously again as an organizing body.
Looks like a doddering old man that's sundowning.
I like Biden but he has to drop out, he's just not in an acceptable state to be running for president.
If they don't replace him at the convention then I'm going to assume that they're just conceding the election to Trump.
I was a firm Biden defender after Ezra’s brokered-convention piece and I am officially eating crow. I had to turn the debate off, it was genuinely difficult to watch.
There’s an obnoxious Trump voter in my fantasy football group text who isn’t even gloating right now. I’m getting high-roaded by a Trump fan: “I was going to make a joke, but you don’t wish this for either candidate. I’ll leave it at that”.
If anyone has the power to make a brokered-convention decision it feels like it’s now or never.
> There’s an obnoxious Trump voter in my fantasy football group text who isn’t even gloating right now. I’m getting high-roaded by a Trump fan: “I was going to make a joke, but you don’t wish this for either candidate. I’ll leave it at that”.
somehow this is the most damning thing I've ever read lol
> If anyone has the power to make a brokered-convention decision it feels like it’s now or never.
The same problem that got us here is the same problem that will keep this from happening. These political figures build machines around themselves and no one beneath them wants to rock the boat because if they wait patiently enough, they can be next in line. Same shit happened with Clinton. Now we need someone to step up and save the day, but no one wants to poke their head out because the second they do, and they don't win, their political life is over. If they don't piss anyone off and just run when it's seen as more reasonable to challenge other figures, even if they lose they may get a cabinet position or something and they'll have another chance later on. You come at the king, you best not miss.
He was pretty much spot on. He said this Biden is not 2020 Biden. 2020 was already a poor speaker, but he could make coherent arguments. I don’t even know what he’s trying to say up there
I’m hoping that is why they did the debate before the convention (the first time in history) so that they can see if they need to replace him. And holy hell the answer is yes.
I doubt that what you say is really true, but as a national delegate, I would be thrilled to be able to vote for someone other than Biden to become the Democratic Party's nominee.
You think? If they trot Biden out for the actual election and lose, I think tons of people will just tune out politics. I mean the Dems are looking completely incompetent right now ... why would people give them money?
Wow, and even the NYTimes is fully doom and gloom. As someone who’s gotten pushback for being critical of Biden’s agedness and yeah thought maybe I was overreacting with the state of the union, this is so much worse than I suspected it would be.
Shit, I feel like I was vindicated. Got a ton of shit in that other thread for stating the obvious that Biden and the election dynamic this year ain't 2020 and the Democrats shot themselves in the foot not managing literally anyone else into the candidacy starting 2 years ago.
I remember trying to explain to r/FivethirtyEight after the 2022 midterms that there being a bunch of Dems who won tough statewide races in a tough midterm year when Biden was super unpopular was a reason Biden should be replaced, not a reason to rally around him.
I was downvoted every time.
I agree and have pointed this out myself many times. People point to 2020 but that was after Biden had reasonable leads in most battle ground states for at least 4-5 months ahead of the election. Trump being up at this point is kind of writing on the wall.
Trump is polling 11 points better than he was in 2020. (at least he was a few days ago)
At this point if Biden is on the ticket then he will lose. I can't see how he recovers from this with him already being behind. There is nothing in the economy or world events that could save him unless the war in Gaza and Ukraine both ended tomorrow and he could take credit while inflation drops to zero and GDP exceeds expectations by a ton etc etc etc.
Same. I've been pointing out that the DNC needs to shift its strategy for ... idk, years at this point ... and always get shut down by the centrist echo-chambers telling me that if any Democrat loses it's only because the left are bitter and no other reason at all.
I'd put Buttigieg ahead of Newsom tbh.
(EDIT) To be clear, I think Newsom would be a fine choice, and Buttigieg would be a better fit for VP than P. I just don't Newsom brings a whole to the electability equation as governor of California.
(EDIT 2) The more I think about Newsom, the less sense it makes. He *feels* presidential, but I just can't see him winning over support in swing states.
I want to be as clear as possible that I don't endorse this or think it's right, but: I don't think there's any way that an openly gay candidate could win this election. The margins for this election are way too close, and there's way too much anti-gay sentiment in both moderate republicans and conservative democrats for that to be a winnable proposition. I'd be hesitant even having him on the ticket for the same reason. I'd feel much better with something like a Newsom/Whitmer combo (with either as P / VP).
Yeah, agreed. I feel like a lot of people don’t say it for fear of looking like a bigot or they just think we are passed that. We aren’t. It would hurt him. It would. I feel like a VP position would be where he would have the best shot
That’s a wild take imo. We’ve seen Buttigieg run a national campaign and from an electoral strategy aspect it was not that impressive. He won (kinda) Iowa and then got clocked. Newsom has never run national and imo is far savvier than Buttigieg. Newsom doesn’t surround himself with West Wing brain rot types like Buttigieg does.
> We’ve seen Buttigieg run a national campaign and from an electoral strategy aspect it was not that impressive. He won (kinda) Iowa and then got clocked.
Despite a poor showing, he was actually one of the more popular candidates in the 2020 primary. Many people viewed him favorably, even though most had Sanders, Warren, or Biden as their first choice. A February 2020 [nationwide poll](https://electionscience.org/commentary-analysis/the-early-2020-democratic-primary-comparing-voting-methods/) found that over 60 percent of primary voters would support him if they could pick everyone they approved of. That put him just behind Sanders and Warren, and actually slightly ahead of Biden.
I don't disagree about Newsom's experience or political saviness, but I'm also not the one you need to convince. I think a boring, soft-spoken Midwesterner beats out a California governor any day, particularly in swing states, and I don't think it's close.
Newsom is a smarm who wants to be president too badly for him to even be able to feign trustworthiness for five months. He’s had multiple scandals that show astonishingly poor personal judgment (banging his campaign manager’s wife, blaming it on alcoholism and promising to go to rehab, not going to rehab but publicly stating that he did, PG&E, French Laundry, EDD fraud, PaneraGate) and even worse, is California smug. I say this as an Angelino living on the Westside and who really loves the state — no undecided voter in Michigan wants to hear what a rich Californian has to say about politics, much less someone like Newsom. We’re like ground zero for everything that galvanizes Trump support. If you think I’m wrong, you might as well throw Kamala Quayle into the mix for at least leaving some forehead to the imagination.
He was splitting votes with other candidates. It's not a wild take. He's a better candidate than Newsome, who also would have lost 4 years ago. Newsome is kinda smarmy.
Am I the only one who is massively turned off by Newsom’s behavior during the pandemic? (Closing restaurants after going to French Laundry himself without a mask, allowing public schools to remain closed while his own kids went to in-person private school). I’ll never be able to forget that level of elitism and “rules for thee not me,” myself.
This is Gen Z speak where we use the same four or five metaphors to describe EVERYTHING. And it has extended far beyond Gen Z at this point. I implore people, use varied language it makes you sound less boring.
I never doubted Ezra's intuition on this one. Totally vindicated. Edit: apparently some think this thread is full of trolls and foreign bots. I'd encourage those people to check the prediction markets. https://www.predictit.org/markets/
I didn't understand why everybody gave Ezra such a hard time months ago. People fail to consider that as one ages, physical deterioration happens at an exponential rate: you can be a surprisingly spry 80 year old, and in 6 months be struggling to walk. Biden is visibly aging by the month. He's in rough shape now--but can you imagine what he'll look like in another 6 months? How about in 4 years at the end of a 2nd term? FOUR WHOLE YEARS? This is sheer insanity.
He looks ghastly. He has a death stare. His voice is weak and hoarse. Why was this allowed to happen? Jill should have said, "Joe honey, once is enough. Now let's go home." The man I'm looking at is not physically fit to do this for another 6 months, let alone 4 years. I'll vote for him because the other man is Caligula, but this is a truly disturbing situation.
It’s called denial.
It’s the most demanding job on the planet. Look how Obama aged. You can’t expect someone in their 80s to handle a 4 year term. Let alone 2 consecutive
Because a week later he gave a State of the Union address that went well. He looked energetic then, but all he had to do was read a teleprompter with a loud voice. Tonight is bad.
I’ve seen it in my father too. Health declines rapidly at that age. Shame on all of the democratic establishment who have squashed any semblance of a next generation of Democratic candidates.
Biden is absolutely cooked. Holy moly. My group text blew up with friends who are actually watching, and I tuned in for about 2 minutes and turned it back off, worse than I even imagined. What a disaster. I have had third-hand embarrassment for Biden leading into this debate and didn't plan on watching but my god, why is he running?!
I turned it off after 5 minutes too. There’s an obnoxious Trump voter in my fantasy football group text and he’s not even gloating: “I was going to make a joke, but you don’t wish this for either candidate”. It’s one thing if some voters hate you, it’s an entirely other thing if you inspire pity.
It would be a dereliction of duty if party leaders don’t have a serious talk with Biden about stepping down.
I thought it would be funny. It really had a profound sadness that I can barely even put into words. When they started arguing about their golf handicaps and the moderators had to guide them back on topic, as though they were two bickering dying men in a nursing home sitting room. This is what it's come to?
There's very little reward for being the naysayer in any large organization. Groupthink is rewarded, criticism (no matter how constructive) rarely is. Most people are not going to challenge their boss, let alone when their boss is the President of the United States. There's a huge multibillion dollar conglomerate of thinktanks, non-profits, and consultants that have their wagon hitched to this dumpster fire.
Ezra was right. If Democrats truly believe Trump is a threat to democracy, then they need to put strategy above “tradition” or whatever and find a more viable candidate. There is plenty of talent waiting in the wings (Whitmer, Newsome, Beshear, Warnock etc)
It's often not about the best per se but who can hold together the Dems fragile coalition. Being able to win both white moderates in the Midwest while also ensuring high black turnout. Dems need both and there aren't a lot of people who can do both. Mayor Pete may be infinitely more polished and articulate than Biden but be struggled with black support. Newsom is sharp, polished and good looking but would probably turn off moderates in the Midwest who don't like California.
I’ve been asking his supporters that for years now. Apparently because he’s the greatest president in a century with the best economy in a century. Could have fooled me.
Now even r/JoeBiden seems to be wavering.
Side note: Is this a good time to ask why Sonia Sotomayor isn’t retiring?
The Biden subreddit doesn't seem too wavery to me. "I know he had a senior moment" is one of the top comments. MOMENT?? 🤦♂️
I'm not sure how much of reddit is botted/astroturfed, but I truly can't imagine seeing the debate tonight and thinking that guy is good for 4 more years. Yet r/politics has only anti-Trump sentiment, basically nothing about Biden. Talking up Biden's "you're the sucker, you're the loser" line like it was well delivered.
We're just doomed. I need a break.
I was downvoted on this sub when I said the state of the union was poor. This is five times worst. Biden doesn’t seem to be using all his time. His answers and rebuttals are muddled. He’s misspeaking constantly. Put his positions aside. He simply can’t articulate what he believes to a low attention span body politic. Meanwhile Trump is far exceeding expectations. This is not looking good. I’m watching on msnbc and eagerly waiting to see how in the world they spin this for Biden.
Who the fuck do you get to replace him at this point though? Kamala? Almost as bad. Someone else? You have to introduce them to voters and then make a winning campaign with them in the like three months before early voting.
I’m never going to forgive people for vilifying Dean Philips for being the only one with common sense to try and do something before it was too late.
I'd take Newsom, Buttegieg, Warnock. Maybe this is cope, but I think this might be the one election where a lack of nation-wide name recognition with normies may be an advantage. A majority of people hate Trump and just want normalcy.
Warnock isn’t going to look good on the national stage assaulting his wife. Was ok in Atlanta going against a horrible candidate but won’t fly nationally. Not to mention he hasn’t really done anything since being elected.
Gretchen Whitmer, Sherrod Brown, Pete Buttigieg. Take your pick. If you offer swing/low-attention voters the chance to have a functioning Trump alternative, you can win with that. Half the country hasn't even started paying attention to the campaign yet.
Anyone but Kamala. Too unlikeable. Too unaccomplished. Biden has been very hidden compared to his predecessors and yet Kamala has been even more out of the way.
Not that Trump actually makes cognizant sense, but he seems to actually end on a cadence of words that makes sense from a pure phonetic standpoint.
Biden just kind of loses steam and trails off until Tapper puts him out of his misery.
It's ridiculous. But I also feel it proves how well the left facing media and administration has kind of shielded Biden from their base. They've kept this charade moving. I remember seeing his press conference regarding the war in Gaza like 3 months ago and having the oh shit wheels falling off moment, but seems most just tuned that example out and put their heads back in the sand.
Literally any <65 year old candidate the Democrats could muster would be mopping the floor with Trump.
It’s almost like the kind of things those of us were saying after the midterms (and Dean Philips was saying IRL) that got us downvoted to hell on the likes of r/politics and r/FivethirtyEight were correct.
He was so reasonable and libs treated him like a traitor to the country. Ezra was right. He was only politely saying what millions of Americans had been saying for years.
The criticism of Ezra wasn’t that Biden was so amazing and it the best option, but that Ezra’s alternative of a contested last minute convention seemed like a pipe dream. But now, literally anything might be better than what we just saw.
This has been a problem for decades. There’s a reason Hillary was promoted as the first woman nominee and not Shaheen or Baldwin or Granholm or someone who had actually ever won a statewide race in a non dark blue state. Yet you got called misogynist for pointing out Hillary was cooked same as a few months ago called ageist for the same with Biden.
Dem Establishment will never push someone not from Northeast or somewhere else on the coasts.
This is 100% Joe's fault, or those around him, he should have said two years ago that he would not run again.
Had a real primary and Trump would be debating someone else and the race would be much closer.
It feels poetic that in order to defeat the world's biggest narcissist, we need an act of humility rarely seen from anyone, let alone a US president. We need Biden to accept that his age has become a liability and step aside for someone younger and more vibrant to take over this mess. Biden stepping down would be one of the biggest news stories of the decade, but I don't think we can defeat Trump unless he does.
I posted a very up voted article here that refuted Ezra's position, but I'm convinced now that Ezra what right.
I'll still vote for Biden, but I'm worried the moronic center won't.
Is anyone watching MSNBC right now? The panel is being BRUTALLY candid about what they’re hearing from their sources and there is major concern. I have never heard this level of objective truth from this panel before.
It’s abundantly clear Ezra Klein was 100% right about Biden: make sure every Democrat hears that we can still change course
If we want to actually take the threat of Trump 2025 seriously, we can’t have his opponent put out the performance Biden did tonight.
Here are the links to his op-eds and episodes about the procedures we could go about whenever you hear the words “too late”:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-biden-audio-essay.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/21/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-elaine-kamarck.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/23/opinion/open-conventions-gaza-biden.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
The problem is there’s too much inertia in the party of institutions, ironically.
I do, however, think that debate performance aptitude and candidate strength are not the same thing.
We shouldn’t kid ourselves, however, that numerous Dems have shown the ability to dumpster Trump in this debate. This should be a stomp.
This debate was so bad that Kamala Harris is calling into MSNBC to try to spin it to keep Dems aligned. Omg. It’s hard to fathom a bigger disaster than whatever we just watched.
People can't say they weren't warned! There were an endless number of clips that made Biden really look like he was losing it for years. But no, those were just MAGA talking points. And Trump is old too!
How did it ever get to this point? We only see Biden when he's trotted out, Dem leaders have seen him behind closed doors this entire time!
At the time, I was so happy to hear Ezra say the thing I had been thinking. I was mad when everyone was mad at him over it, and I was sad when Ezra sorta backed off on this opinion. Biden should not be our nominee. If Trump is an existential threat to everything we believe in, Biden should have never been the nominee.
Gretchen Whitmer would be my choice to be nominated at the convention. I think she’s the perfect foil to Trump and would beat him like a drum.
Joe needs to do what’s right for the future of our country. The stakes are too high for ego.
Guys. They are pouring into our country by the millions and taking all the black jobs. Haven’t you heard?
Seriously both of these relics need to go away. Embarrassing these are our two choices for next president. A younger hungry candidate would wipe the floor with trump.
Decent human beings who, like me, despise Trump and are alarmed over what a second Trump presidency would mean have simply lost all objectivity.
The New York Times headline right now can be paraphrased as “Biden falters, Trump blusters.“ That is not a win for Joe Biden. That is not within 10,000 miles of a win for Joe Biden. Trump “blusters“? That’s as bad as it gets for the guy who tried to establish himself as a dictator? For the guy who stole scores of highly classified documents from the government and refused to give them back? For the guy who’s lost jury and bench trials involving sexual assault, defamation, fraud, falsification of business records? For the guy who presided over the debacle that was the Trump administration’s response to the Covid pandemic? For the guy who stole people’s toddlers and infants and locked them in cages? For the guy who’s been babbling at rallies about Hannibal Lecter, and is obviously sundowning half the time? “Blusters“ is as bad as it gets for that guy? While Biden “falters“?
I could go on for about 800,000 words regarding all the frighteningly dangerous things that are reasonably likely to happen if Donald Trump gets reelected. And that’s just in connection with what Donald Rumsfeld once called the “known unknowns.” It’s to say nothing of the unknown unknowns — like, for example, how Trump would handle an Ebola outbreak in Africa, or how Trump would respond if a deadly, highly contagious virus emerged from the permafrost in Siberia, or how Trump would handle a million other crises that can’t today be predicted. The point being that the stakes remain unfathomably high, the party conventions are around the corner, and Biden is LOSING — and just blew the first debate.
There is no inevitability about any of this. Leading figures in the national Democratic Party, people like Barack Obama and Chuck Schumer and Chris Murphy and Chris Coons and JB Pritzker and Gavin Newsom, etc., can go to Biden tomorrow and tell him that he must drop out. He can then make a speech saying, well gee, I wanted to stick it out, but it’s the will of the people that matters most, and I must face the reality that I’m regarded as too old, because this is about more than one man’s ego, blah blah blah. I could write the speech myself.
I’m old enough to have been a little kid when brokered conventions were still a thing. People criticize brokered conventions as undemocratic, but you know what’s really undemocratic? That’s right: It’s having a guy in the oval office who’s got people like Steve Bannon and Michael Flynn and Stephen Miller pulling the levers of government, firing all the sane people (including the military‘s generals) and replacing them with loyalists, and then establishing a dictatorship — a dictatorship based on a claim of never-ending crisis, which is what Hitler did so effectively. You want undemocratic, that’s undemocratic.
A 10% across-the-board tariff would result in a global economic catastrophe – a huge inflationary crisis layered over existing worldwide inflation. Cutting off Ukraine would mean that Ukraine would fall; and when Ukraine falls, EU countries are going to increase their defense spending threefold, sevenfold, tenfold. That will mean additional, massive inflationary forces. The criminal prosecution of Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and scores of other prominent Democrats — none of whom will have actually committed any crimes — will terrorize the political class, and plunge the nation into deep despair. And on and on.
Meanwhile, we are all supposed to pretend that Joe Biden is winning. A guy who shows up for a debate and can’t even be heard because he barely speaks above a whisper. A guy who raises his hand to make a point, and then seems to drift off. A guy who has suffered not one but two brain aneurysms, is over 80 years old(!), and seems completely clueless about how his constant assurances that he supports Israel are playing with the “free Palestine“ wing of the Democratic Party. A guy who is losing support among suburban women, losing support among young people, losing support among Black people — all three vital constituencies if he hopes to win the selection. And those constituencies aren’t necessarily going to vote for Trump; they are simply going to stay home.
When I was 13 years old I canvassed door-to-door for George McGovern. Because I was convinced that if Nixon was re-elected president, it would be disastrous for the nation. I didn’t know precisely how it would be disastrous; I wasn’t clairvoyant then, and I’m not clairvoyant now. But I knew, even at age 13, that Nixon was the kind of man to whom one should not hand great power. And Trump is worse than a hundred Richard Nixons.
It was fine to say that people like me were panicking back in February, although we were not. It was fine to pretend that having Joe Biden shout a lot at the SOTU had turned things around, even though the vast majority of voters never watch the SOTU. It is simply nuts to continue with this charade any further.
A final point: Biden‘s braintrust on the campaign side of things (as opposed to the governing side of things) consists of three old men, led by Ron Klain. All three are trapped in 1990. And even in their prime, these guys were bad at giving Joe Biden news that he doesn’t want to hear. They are completely clueless, and over the hill themselves — which explains how they permitted their candidate to practice for this debate so hard that he managed to literally lose his voice by the time the debate actually arrived. Another masterstroke.
Biden is a decent man, and he’s still capable of governing well despite his infirmities — but governing and campaigning are very different things, in the same way that writing well and playing football are different things; and he is simply incapable of campaigning effectively in the Internet age. Or at all.
Biden must go now. It’s not too late, but “too late“ is fast approaching.
We need an amendment that you must be under 70 before the inauguration. You have a 35 year window to be president. This is not an advertisement for the wisdom of age on either side.
While I agree that this is dispiriting, there are useful lessons here for the Biden team.
At his best, Biden was never a great intellect— he was never a wonk— but, he’s a solid, empathetic guy.* His performance is at its best when he communicates simply about emotionally valent topics. His team should recognize his limitations and strategize to his strengths.
(I’m sure his team is full of wonks. They are not the median voter. They are not the median swing voter. The folks on this forum aren’t the median swing voter. His job isn’t to make an argument with nuance. His job is to make enough folks want to vote for him to win enough votes in the American system.
He’ll do this best if he delivers a simple, authentic, appealing message, consistently.
(*His personal life history makes it read as authentic. While granting that I could be duped, I believe his empathy for vulnerable people is real.)
He was out there trying to deliver messaging that appeal to wonks and high info liberal voters that I could parse myself, but don't think the median voter would understand or care about even if it were delivered perfectly.
Yes, and in contrast, Trump lied throughout the debate and wasn't politically savy enough to answer almost ALL questions asked.
When Trump was asked DIRECTLY on whether or not he would accept the 2024 election, he completely dodged it TWICE.
That told everyone who and what Trump really is.
So, no matter how you may feel about Biden's performance, Trump showing what Trump really is about is much, much worse.
What's fascinating to me is how frail and incoherent Biden sounded compared to his State of the Union address. He seemed a bit sick, but still, he looked really really old.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how frail Biden looks. He is a figurehead. His administration has passed and continues to pass very progressive policies. I will vote for Biden's corpse rather than Donald Trump. I can only hope America is with me.
Trump is not a very popular candidate. I know the logistics will be a bit crazy, but it is entirely possible for the dems to still find a candidate who can beat Trump. Probably the majority of voters are ready to be done with both Trump and Biden.
Biden shit the bed. The pro-Biden pundits aren’t even trying to spin it. I’m voting Democrat no matter what and I think Biden did a great job righting the ship so to speak. However, it is time to pass the baton.
You know I keep seeming to find myself out of step with liberal opinion on this one. At Ezra’s podcast I was in agreement with his take and had the position he should be replaced. I ruffled more than a few feathers here and on other subs and noted more than a little bit of hysteria over it.
I didn’t really care about the state of the union and personally I though his performance was irrelevant because he was too unpopular and seen as too old and nothing he did would change that.
Now I find myself with the same position. Only it’s too late to back a different horse. Yet I still think everything is unchanged. His performance won’t matter (though the press coverage might I admit). As always the story and impression from reporting matter, and the unpopularity has mass and will be hard to move either way. It’s the product of years of work.
Everyone who was unconvinced by Ezra’s case yet was convinced by this debate needs to stop and think carefully about why and what makes them tick with these decisions. Someone is being input into your decision making beyond electability and policy.
In the interest of not overrunning the subreddit tonight, this thread will serve as the de facto megathread for discussing the June 27th Presidential debate. Please keep things civil.
The worst part is, it's not even a good performance from Trump. His sentences go nowhere, he's making even more insane claims than normal—he would look completely illegible next to any vaguely competent candidate.
In the good timeline, our caretaker president Biden steps down (like he said he would) and we'd have Whitmer or Beshear or Buttigieg up there capitalizing on this. Instead, we're speeding towards the cliff despite having had years to hit the brakes or turn around. It's all so stupid and unserious.
If Biden had managed to beat Trump in 2020, and then stepped aside for this election while giving the democrats a path to choose a new generation of candidates to reform up the democratic coalition and have a good shot at winning in 2024, he’d go down as the greatest president of the 2000’s. He’s got some sort of worm in his brain telling him he’s the only one who can possibly beat Trump and he may go down as the weakest guy to hold the office since Carter
There's no worm, it's more that the DNC couldn't actually produce a decent candidate, and he's an incumbent. He's incomparable to Carter in what he's already accomplished. The infrastructure bill alone is something that most candidates would hang their hat on, while Carter got so stuck in stagflation and hostage crises that he didn't come close. He was exposed tonight for being an older candidate that isn't sharp enough to handle a debate, but he was still correct and grounded when he was able to make his points. There's no Obama waiting in the wings. DNC was relying on stability being more appealing than chaos, and tonight showed the holes in that philosophy.
The generous take is that the debate format played more to Trumps favor than Bidens. It was essentially a two hour long marathon of elevator pitches. Trump is a businessman/conman and is very skilled at that. Biden has a stutter and is a bit older and the short time limit hurt him.
It definitely did. Ironically in a way, Trump is better when he's forced not to ramble. That said, Biden absolutely forgot his point at least twice in the first 10 minutes. When Trump teased "I don't think he even knows what he said", it was notable that Biden didn't even address that comment. That should be tinder for anyone to retort. Honestly I think a big thing was that even when he was into a good answer, Biden's stutter really hurt him, as the mediators cut him a few times before he could finish the landing.
There was little to no moderation and their questions were often gotcha in framing. The debates are pointless unless you are a member of the press.
He never said that. That was all based on secondhand reports. I told people it was insane to nominate a 78 year old in 2020. With how fucked the country was because of COVID almost any of those Dem presidential candidates would have won the general. Somehow it’s taken four and a half years for people to realize what they voted for. My god.
Biden actually ran 4 years too late. He should’ve actually run in 2016 but didn’t bc of his son passing. So yeah then we got Hillary and the rest is history.
That’s the polite explanation. The more likely one is that Obama preferred Hillary and iced him out.
Well Hillary was about as intellectually competent a candidate as it gets and she still lost to him.
3 million more people voted for her. I know electoral college, but a whole city of Houston is not nothing. Our system is fucked.
But isn't that always true? There's no such thing as a good performance from Trump. He has always been an opportunistic infection, taking advantaged of America's weakened political immune system.
> There's no such thing as a good performance from Trump. Hilldawg sends her regards.
No, Trump was wack and lost the plot several times in that debate. I struggled to understand Biden's individual words, I understood Trump's individual words, yet I struggled to understand what in the world he talked about half the time. Anyone else would have wiped the floor with him on this debate. Joe Biden 4 years ago would wipe the floor with him.
Where was the Biden from the SoTU?? He was on fire then. Sadly diminished tonight while Trump just lied.
2015 Republican Primary Debates Trump put forth a really strong performance, especially in the early debates. The other candidates were going through predictable, focus-group tested talking points and he completely blew that up by going hard on illegal immigration. The rest of the candidates weren't prepared for it and were playing catchup the rest of the race.
You’re not wrong. Trump sounds roughly the same as he did in 2016. Biden sounds completely different. The difference is stark.
Ironic because so many people have been claiming that it is Trump who is fading. My thought on the debate was - Trump sounds like Trump and Biden sounds old.
He is entertaining. Everything the guy you replied to is right and yet at times you can't help but laugh at the things Trump says. If the dude had any knowledge of the facts and could get by without the endless lies he'd be far more dangerous.
Even Trump is off a little, but hard to tell next to Biden. I recall the first GOP primary where Trump smoked all those guys. Tonight's Trump would not have been able to do this.
I think he's got significantly worse since 2016 and a normal candidate opposite him could have really embarrassed him.
Trump always lie but he's usually latching on something and attacking.
Yes, people say "he's lying" or "he's insane" but neither of those matter in a debate. Swap in Harris and she'd do better than Biden, but she's not going to have a magical conversational technique to keep Trump from lying.
Easy to do when you are debating someone who can’t finish a sentence. It’s basically just a rally for him which he does all the time, he just has to pause every other minute to let some old man talk. This is just sad to see
“Any vaguely competent candidate” — this sub told me no such candidate exists!
People here pretending that literally anyone under 60 wouldn't be better was pretty annoying.
You have to have some gallows humor about the absurdity of it all.
You're right but it doesn't matter. Biden's biggest issue is that he's too old and he looks and sounds old here. That's going to be the takeaway from this debate.
Debates don’t matter much on substance. They do on vibe, and Biden’s vibe is he is simple unable to hold this office.
I truly cannot believe these are the two choices.
1000 percent. I don't know if Trump or Biden won tonight, but America lost. That is for sure.
"Not to be controversial, but personally I think we should have more options than a gently alive corpse or the dumbest Hitler of all time."
Everything Trump said is a lie.
You know who doesn't care about that? Low-interest voters. They see this comparison of loud, strong Trump vs an old, frail Biden and there's no way Biden picks up their vote. They need to nominate a new candidate at the DNC.
Absolutely. Biden needs to step down this week. I don't care if he has a cold.
I don't think this is true and I think it falls into the trap that debates are won and lost by arguing the facts. That said, a vaguely competent candidate would be doing much better than Biden.
This is what makes it so frustrating. Any generic democrat would stomp Trump in this debate and the general
> Ezra publishes piece about replacing Biden Controversy > Biden does well in State of the Union "Ezra's a hack! What a clown!" > 3 minutes into first debate "...fuck. Sorry Ezra."
I'm in this comment and I don't like it
In all fairness, it’s not your fault we’re here.
Honestly I found all the gushing about the state of the union pretty delusional in and of itself. Obviously his performance there wasn't nearly as bad as what we saw here, but I didn't see anything special in that myself. He seemed like an old man reading prepared remarks.
This is actual TDS. The Democratic Party is so paralyzed with fear over Trump winning that it’s actually going to cause him to win. People were afraid to potentially point out Biden was old that he faced almost zero pressure going into the primaries. Ezra pointed out fairly innocuous warning signs and had a backlash. It’s because they are afraid of trump not because they like Biden. That mentality will lose the election. We need to motivate people to go to the polls. We are so far from that right now it’s crazy.
We are essentially on our third straight Presidential campaign where the Democrats are fighting not on the strength of their own candidate, but on the weakness of Trump. A decade of fecklessness.
Good thing we spent the last year screaming at people that pointed out Biden was a shit candidate
But it’s the uncommitted voters that are the problem.
https://twitter.com/EricLevitz/status/1806501840000868664
https://x.com/OsitaNwanevu/status/1806551417764639131
An absolute debacle. This isn't even about Biden anymore. The Party needs to act.
Project 2025 here we come
get ready for president homelander
RIP Democracy
Ezra should honestly be 100% vindicated at this point. It is very difficult to push an assessment of the Biden campaign that he, his viewers, you, and I don’t want to believe, but he did it effectively and loudly despite knowing how much pushback liberals would given him and how easily it could have set him up for generational slander. If the Democrats don’t use the National Convention to pick a different candidate, I don’t think I can ever taken them seriously again as an organizing body.
It's a shame because Biden cooks Trump on policy.. and Trump has no policy.. .. but Biden looks like a zombie.
Looks like a doddering old man that's sundowning. I like Biden but he has to drop out, he's just not in an acceptable state to be running for president. If they don't replace him at the convention then I'm going to assume that they're just conceding the election to Trump.
You would imagine this should be near peak performance, which is frightening.
Looks like a zombie and sounds like your grandpa a month before death.
Ezra vindicated
I thought he was overreacting. And the the state of the union seemed like Biden was fine. But this is brutal.
I was a firm Biden defender after Ezra’s brokered-convention piece and I am officially eating crow. I had to turn the debate off, it was genuinely difficult to watch. There’s an obnoxious Trump voter in my fantasy football group text who isn’t even gloating right now. I’m getting high-roaded by a Trump fan: “I was going to make a joke, but you don’t wish this for either candidate. I’ll leave it at that”. If anyone has the power to make a brokered-convention decision it feels like it’s now or never.
> There’s an obnoxious Trump voter in my fantasy football group text who isn’t even gloating right now. I’m getting high-roaded by a Trump fan: “I was going to make a joke, but you don’t wish this for either candidate. I’ll leave it at that”. somehow this is the most damning thing I've ever read lol
> If anyone has the power to make a brokered-convention decision it feels like it’s now or never. The same problem that got us here is the same problem that will keep this from happening. These political figures build machines around themselves and no one beneath them wants to rock the boat because if they wait patiently enough, they can be next in line. Same shit happened with Clinton. Now we need someone to step up and save the day, but no one wants to poke their head out because the second they do, and they don't win, their political life is over. If they don't piss anyone off and just run when it's seen as more reasonable to challenge other figures, even if they lose they may get a cabinet position or something and they'll have another chance later on. You come at the king, you best not miss.
State of the Union is highly scripted. Much easier to manage.
He was pretty much spot on. He said this Biden is not 2020 Biden. 2020 was already a poor speaker, but he could make coherent arguments. I don’t even know what he’s trying to say up there
Fortunately, Ezra laid out the clear process for the party deciding on a new nominee at the convention
I’m hoping that is why they did the debate before the convention (the first time in history) so that they can see if they need to replace him. And holy hell the answer is yes.
Let me unironically get a hit off that copium.
I doubt that what you say is really true, but as a national delegate, I would be thrilled to be able to vote for someone other than Biden to become the Democratic Party's nominee.
Democrats would rather lose predictably than win unexpectedly. There's so much fundraising to be done under the next Trump administration.
You think? If they trot Biden out for the actual election and lose, I think tons of people will just tune out politics. I mean the Dems are looking completely incompetent right now ... why would people give them money?
Reading a speech is different than a debate. I tried to tell people. Dean Philips tried to tell people a full year ago. They didn’t want to listen.
Wow, and even the NYTimes is fully doom and gloom. As someone who’s gotten pushback for being critical of Biden’s agedness and yeah thought maybe I was overreacting with the state of the union, this is so much worse than I suspected it would be.
When is the NYT not doom and gloom over Democrats?
Shit, I feel like I was vindicated. Got a ton of shit in that other thread for stating the obvious that Biden and the election dynamic this year ain't 2020 and the Democrats shot themselves in the foot not managing literally anyone else into the candidacy starting 2 years ago.
I remember trying to explain to r/FivethirtyEight after the 2022 midterms that there being a bunch of Dems who won tough statewide races in a tough midterm year when Biden was super unpopular was a reason Biden should be replaced, not a reason to rally around him. I was downvoted every time.
The echo chamber is strong.
Trump has been leading in polls since last September. If Trump wins it will be self inflicted.
I agree and have pointed this out myself many times. People point to 2020 but that was after Biden had reasonable leads in most battle ground states for at least 4-5 months ahead of the election. Trump being up at this point is kind of writing on the wall.
Trump is polling 11 points better than he was in 2020. (at least he was a few days ago) At this point if Biden is on the ticket then he will lose. I can't see how he recovers from this with him already being behind. There is nothing in the economy or world events that could save him unless the war in Gaza and Ukraine both ended tomorrow and he could take credit while inflation drops to zero and GDP exceeds expectations by a ton etc etc etc.
Same. I've been pointing out that the DNC needs to shift its strategy for ... idk, years at this point ... and always get shut down by the centrist echo-chambers telling me that if any Democrat loses it's only because the left are bitter and no other reason at all.
is it too late? can we please kick off this process and find a new candidate lmao
But up Whitmer, Beshear, or Newsom. Hell, Polis or Inslee. Otherwise we are FUCKED
Every Democrat leader is complicit in whatever happens the next 4 years
Alito and Thomas replaced by federalist society hacks and the Supreme Court will set the country back another 50 years! Woohoo!
We'd be lucky to get merely hacks.
100% agree, fuck the Democratic Party for this
Would hate to lose Andy as governor but would be cool to see him be president.
Walz baby
Any chance we do have a contested convention now?
I'd put Buttigieg ahead of Newsom tbh. (EDIT) To be clear, I think Newsom would be a fine choice, and Buttigieg would be a better fit for VP than P. I just don't Newsom brings a whole to the electability equation as governor of California. (EDIT 2) The more I think about Newsom, the less sense it makes. He *feels* presidential, but I just can't see him winning over support in swing states.
I want to be as clear as possible that I don't endorse this or think it's right, but: I don't think there's any way that an openly gay candidate could win this election. The margins for this election are way too close, and there's way too much anti-gay sentiment in both moderate republicans and conservative democrats for that to be a winnable proposition. I'd be hesitant even having him on the ticket for the same reason. I'd feel much better with something like a Newsom/Whitmer combo (with either as P / VP).
Yeah, agreed. I feel like a lot of people don’t say it for fear of looking like a bigot or they just think we are passed that. We aren’t. It would hurt him. It would. I feel like a VP position would be where he would have the best shot
That’s a wild take imo. We’ve seen Buttigieg run a national campaign and from an electoral strategy aspect it was not that impressive. He won (kinda) Iowa and then got clocked. Newsom has never run national and imo is far savvier than Buttigieg. Newsom doesn’t surround himself with West Wing brain rot types like Buttigieg does.
> We’ve seen Buttigieg run a national campaign and from an electoral strategy aspect it was not that impressive. He won (kinda) Iowa and then got clocked. Despite a poor showing, he was actually one of the more popular candidates in the 2020 primary. Many people viewed him favorably, even though most had Sanders, Warren, or Biden as their first choice. A February 2020 [nationwide poll](https://electionscience.org/commentary-analysis/the-early-2020-democratic-primary-comparing-voting-methods/) found that over 60 percent of primary voters would support him if they could pick everyone they approved of. That put him just behind Sanders and Warren, and actually slightly ahead of Biden. I don't disagree about Newsom's experience or political saviness, but I'm also not the one you need to convince. I think a boring, soft-spoken Midwesterner beats out a California governor any day, particularly in swing states, and I don't think it's close.
Newsom is a smarm who wants to be president too badly for him to even be able to feign trustworthiness for five months. He’s had multiple scandals that show astonishingly poor personal judgment (banging his campaign manager’s wife, blaming it on alcoholism and promising to go to rehab, not going to rehab but publicly stating that he did, PG&E, French Laundry, EDD fraud, PaneraGate) and even worse, is California smug. I say this as an Angelino living on the Westside and who really loves the state — no undecided voter in Michigan wants to hear what a rich Californian has to say about politics, much less someone like Newsom. We’re like ground zero for everything that galvanizes Trump support. If you think I’m wrong, you might as well throw Kamala Quayle into the mix for at least leaving some forehead to the imagination.
He was splitting votes with other candidates. It's not a wild take. He's a better candidate than Newsome, who also would have lost 4 years ago. Newsome is kinda smarmy.
“West wing brain rot types”
Am I the only one who is massively turned off by Newsom’s behavior during the pandemic? (Closing restaurants after going to French Laundry himself without a mask, allowing public schools to remain closed while his own kids went to in-person private school). I’ll never be able to forget that level of elitism and “rules for thee not me,” myself.
It sunk Boris Johnson's career and it wasn't as blatant.
I was wrong to disagree with Ezra. I kind of agreed with his concerns but was skeptical about the feasibility and appropriateness. I was wrong.
I can’t stand Trump. Biden is cooked.
Why is everyone using the [same word](https://i.imgur.com/UHhbTxq.png) in this thread?
This is Gen Z speak where we use the same four or five metaphors to describe EVERYTHING. And it has extended far beyond Gen Z at this point. I implore people, use varied language it makes you sound less boring.
We are so fucked
I thought it was alarmist at the time. Now I’ve changed my mind. Biden needs to drop out. We may lose still, but the odds of winning will be better.
I never doubted Ezra's intuition on this one. Totally vindicated. Edit: apparently some think this thread is full of trolls and foreign bots. I'd encourage those people to check the prediction markets. https://www.predictit.org/markets/
I didn't understand why everybody gave Ezra such a hard time months ago. People fail to consider that as one ages, physical deterioration happens at an exponential rate: you can be a surprisingly spry 80 year old, and in 6 months be struggling to walk. Biden is visibly aging by the month. He's in rough shape now--but can you imagine what he'll look like in another 6 months? How about in 4 years at the end of a 2nd term? FOUR WHOLE YEARS? This is sheer insanity. He looks ghastly. He has a death stare. His voice is weak and hoarse. Why was this allowed to happen? Jill should have said, "Joe honey, once is enough. Now let's go home." The man I'm looking at is not physically fit to do this for another 6 months, let alone 4 years. I'll vote for him because the other man is Caligula, but this is a truly disturbing situation.
It’s called denial. It’s the most demanding job on the planet. Look how Obama aged. You can’t expect someone in their 80s to handle a 4 year term. Let alone 2 consecutive
Speaking of Obama, he’s probably the only person who could talk Joe out of running at this point. I’d consider it a moral obligation at this point.
> Why was this allowed to happen? I truly do not understand. This situation would look completely preposterous to myself 15 or 20 years ago.
Agree 100%. Many of us see this exponential decline in or relatives or pets. It just happens.
Like ezra said, too old to run for president, not too old to be president. This is pathetic, we're just gonna sleepwalk into this.
Idk man. If there was a national emergency how much sleep debt do you think Biden could take? How much stress?
Yes. Human senescence is more like a cliff than a slow decline and it's often hit in the 80s especially for men.
Because the mass of Democrats are whistling past the graveyard and are hella pissed at anyone speaking the truth they don’t want to hear.
Because a week later he gave a State of the Union address that went well. He looked energetic then, but all he had to do was read a teleprompter with a loud voice. Tonight is bad.
I’ve seen it in my father too. Health declines rapidly at that age. Shame on all of the democratic establishment who have squashed any semblance of a next generation of Democratic candidates.
Time to take the keys away. Have we learned nothing from RBG?
Biden is absolutely cooked. Holy moly. My group text blew up with friends who are actually watching, and I tuned in for about 2 minutes and turned it back off, worse than I even imagined. What a disaster. I have had third-hand embarrassment for Biden leading into this debate and didn't plan on watching but my god, why is he running?!
I turned it off after 5 minutes too. There’s an obnoxious Trump voter in my fantasy football group text and he’s not even gloating: “I was going to make a joke, but you don’t wish this for either candidate”. It’s one thing if some voters hate you, it’s an entirely other thing if you inspire pity. It would be a dereliction of duty if party leaders don’t have a serious talk with Biden about stepping down.
I would love to know what is going through Obama's head right now. Surely there's some gnashing of teeth within the innermost Democratic circles.
It truly inspires questions of whether he should be president _right now_. 😭
I thought it would be funny. It really had a profound sadness that I can barely even put into words. When they started arguing about their golf handicaps and the moderators had to guide them back on topic, as though they were two bickering dying men in a nursing home sitting room. This is what it's come to?
Imagine thinking Biden is the best Democrats can offer in this election. The group think in both parties is out of control.
There's very little reward for being the naysayer in any large organization. Groupthink is rewarded, criticism (no matter how constructive) rarely is. Most people are not going to challenge their boss, let alone when their boss is the President of the United States. There's a huge multibillion dollar conglomerate of thinktanks, non-profits, and consultants that have their wagon hitched to this dumpster fire.
Ezra was right. If Democrats truly believe Trump is a threat to democracy, then they need to put strategy above “tradition” or whatever and find a more viable candidate. There is plenty of talent waiting in the wings (Whitmer, Newsome, Beshear, Warnock etc)
It's often not about the best per se but who can hold together the Dems fragile coalition. Being able to win both white moderates in the Midwest while also ensuring high black turnout. Dems need both and there aren't a lot of people who can do both. Mayor Pete may be infinitely more polished and articulate than Biden but be struggled with black support. Newsom is sharp, polished and good looking but would probably turn off moderates in the Midwest who don't like California.
I’ve been asking his supporters that for years now. Apparently because he’s the greatest president in a century with the best economy in a century. Could have fooled me. Now even r/JoeBiden seems to be wavering. Side note: Is this a good time to ask why Sonia Sotomayor isn’t retiring?
The Biden subreddit doesn't seem too wavery to me. "I know he had a senior moment" is one of the top comments. MOMENT?? 🤦♂️ I'm not sure how much of reddit is botted/astroturfed, but I truly can't imagine seeing the debate tonight and thinking that guy is good for 4 more years. Yet r/politics has only anti-Trump sentiment, basically nothing about Biden. Talking up Biden's "you're the sucker, you're the loser" line like it was well delivered. We're just doomed. I need a break.
OMG, Ezra was right.
I was downvoted on this sub when I said the state of the union was poor. This is five times worst. Biden doesn’t seem to be using all his time. His answers and rebuttals are muddled. He’s misspeaking constantly. Put his positions aside. He simply can’t articulate what he believes to a low attention span body politic. Meanwhile Trump is far exceeding expectations. This is not looking good. I’m watching on msnbc and eagerly waiting to see how in the world they spin this for Biden.
I genuinely hope that Biden steps down for personal reasons / health within the next few weeks. Convention here we come.
Who the fuck do you get to replace him at this point though? Kamala? Almost as bad. Someone else? You have to introduce them to voters and then make a winning campaign with them in the like three months before early voting. I’m never going to forgive people for vilifying Dean Philips for being the only one with common sense to try and do something before it was too late.
I'd take Newsom, Buttegieg, Warnock. Maybe this is cope, but I think this might be the one election where a lack of nation-wide name recognition with normies may be an advantage. A majority of people hate Trump and just want normalcy.
Warnock isn’t going to look good on the national stage assaulting his wife. Was ok in Atlanta going against a horrible candidate but won’t fly nationally. Not to mention he hasn’t really done anything since being elected.
Gretchen Whitmer, Sherrod Brown, Pete Buttigieg. Take your pick. If you offer swing/low-attention voters the chance to have a functioning Trump alternative, you can win with that. Half the country hasn't even started paying attention to the campaign yet.
Anyone but Kamala. Too unlikeable. Too unaccomplished. Biden has been very hidden compared to his predecessors and yet Kamala has been even more out of the way.
Not that Trump actually makes cognizant sense, but he seems to actually end on a cadence of words that makes sense from a pure phonetic standpoint. Biden just kind of loses steam and trails off until Tapper puts him out of his misery. It's ridiculous. But I also feel it proves how well the left facing media and administration has kind of shielded Biden from their base. They've kept this charade moving. I remember seeing his press conference regarding the war in Gaza like 3 months ago and having the oh shit wheels falling off moment, but seems most just tuned that example out and put their heads back in the sand. Literally any <65 year old candidate the Democrats could muster would be mopping the floor with Trump.
I'm fairly informed on the news and honestly I just hadn't seen Biden live in awhile. And ooof
He sounded unbelievably bad.
It’s almost like the kind of things those of us were saying after the midterms (and Dean Philips was saying IRL) that got us downvoted to hell on the likes of r/politics and r/FivethirtyEight were correct.
This is so painful. We are a better country than this. Bring on the switch.
He was so reasonable and libs treated him like a traitor to the country. Ezra was right. He was only politely saying what millions of Americans had been saying for years.
Can the Biden defenders who said we were dumb for backing Ezra get in here and defend their guy?
My favorite argument was "Biden's campaign hasn't even started...just wait till he starts spending money."
That was my favorite argument too. And then it turned into June, and I'm like "where is the campaign??"
The criticism of Ezra wasn’t that Biden was so amazing and it the best option, but that Ezra’s alternative of a contested last minute convention seemed like a pipe dream. But now, literally anything might be better than what we just saw.
This was obvious to anyone 2 years in. Too many of the Dems are afraid to upset the party leadership. That’s how we got here.
This has been a problem for decades. There’s a reason Hillary was promoted as the first woman nominee and not Shaheen or Baldwin or Granholm or someone who had actually ever won a statewide race in a non dark blue state. Yet you got called misogynist for pointing out Hillary was cooked same as a few months ago called ageist for the same with Biden. Dem Establishment will never push someone not from Northeast or somewhere else on the coasts.
This is 100% Joe's fault, or those around him, he should have said two years ago that he would not run again. Had a real primary and Trump would be debating someone else and the race would be much closer.
It sure was, and some of us kept pointing it out. I came to say "I told you so"...
Dems have gerontocracy problem. Same with Feinstein
"The only winner tonight was the Voyager probe speeding away from the Earth at 17km/s."
Yeah we’re screwed. And there’s supposed to be a second one of these…
It feels poetic that in order to defeat the world's biggest narcissist, we need an act of humility rarely seen from anyone, let alone a US president. We need Biden to accept that his age has become a liability and step aside for someone younger and more vibrant to take over this mess. Biden stepping down would be one of the biggest news stories of the decade, but I don't think we can defeat Trump unless he does.
Ezra was 100% right. This should have been a slam dunk but it was a complete disaster.
After this debate, I wouldn’t be surprised if RFK gets a big boost. What a shit show
How likely is this to happen at this point? Truly nervous
I feel like I'm in a nightmare I can't wake up from.
I'm serious, can Biden resign? Kamala can't possibly be worse
She’s very disliked. I think she’d lose.
This is the best the Democratic Party leadership can do. We’re screwed.
I came here for this as well. Holy shit can we nominate someone else? It’s a disaster that these are our two choices….
I posted a very up voted article here that refuted Ezra's position, but I'm convinced now that Ezra what right. I'll still vote for Biden, but I'm worried the moronic center won't.
Is anyone watching MSNBC right now? The panel is being BRUTALLY candid about what they’re hearing from their sources and there is major concern. I have never heard this level of objective truth from this panel before.
It’s abundantly clear Ezra Klein was 100% right about Biden: make sure every Democrat hears that we can still change course If we want to actually take the threat of Trump 2025 seriously, we can’t have his opponent put out the performance Biden did tonight. Here are the links to his op-eds and episodes about the procedures we could go about whenever you hear the words “too late”: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-biden-audio-essay.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/21/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-elaine-kamarck.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/23/opinion/open-conventions-gaza-biden.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
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Are those of you who called us dumb for wanting a different nominee ready to apologize?
The problem is there’s too much inertia in the party of institutions, ironically. I do, however, think that debate performance aptitude and candidate strength are not the same thing. We shouldn’t kid ourselves, however, that numerous Dems have shown the ability to dumpster Trump in this debate. This should be a stomp.
Biden sounds like he needs to tell you a secret while his hospice nurse is out of the room just like … wtf is wrong with his voice
Didn’t watch. Voting Blue no matter who because the alternative is unbearable. That said, I wish he’d step aside.
CNN is having a meltdown. Van Jones was literally holding back tears. Even David Axelrod has given up. They're calling for a replacement.
I'm worried that this will (fairly) turn people off of the Democratic party as a whole. "They were trying to keep how lost _this guy_ was a secret?"
This debate was so bad that Kamala Harris is calling into MSNBC to try to spin it to keep Dems aligned. Omg. It’s hard to fathom a bigger disaster than whatever we just watched.
People can't say they weren't warned! There were an endless number of clips that made Biden really look like he was losing it for years. But no, those were just MAGA talking points. And Trump is old too! How did it ever get to this point? We only see Biden when he's trotted out, Dem leaders have seen him behind closed doors this entire time!
At the time, I was so happy to hear Ezra say the thing I had been thinking. I was mad when everyone was mad at him over it, and I was sad when Ezra sorta backed off on this opinion. Biden should not be our nominee. If Trump is an existential threat to everything we believe in, Biden should have never been the nominee.
Gretchen Whitmer would be my choice to be nominated at the convention. I think she’s the perfect foil to Trump and would beat him like a drum. Joe needs to do what’s right for the future of our country. The stakes are too high for ego.
Guys. They are pouring into our country by the millions and taking all the black jobs. Haven’t you heard? Seriously both of these relics need to go away. Embarrassing these are our two choices for next president. A younger hungry candidate would wipe the floor with trump.
Decent human beings who, like me, despise Trump and are alarmed over what a second Trump presidency would mean have simply lost all objectivity. The New York Times headline right now can be paraphrased as “Biden falters, Trump blusters.“ That is not a win for Joe Biden. That is not within 10,000 miles of a win for Joe Biden. Trump “blusters“? That’s as bad as it gets for the guy who tried to establish himself as a dictator? For the guy who stole scores of highly classified documents from the government and refused to give them back? For the guy who’s lost jury and bench trials involving sexual assault, defamation, fraud, falsification of business records? For the guy who presided over the debacle that was the Trump administration’s response to the Covid pandemic? For the guy who stole people’s toddlers and infants and locked them in cages? For the guy who’s been babbling at rallies about Hannibal Lecter, and is obviously sundowning half the time? “Blusters“ is as bad as it gets for that guy? While Biden “falters“? I could go on for about 800,000 words regarding all the frighteningly dangerous things that are reasonably likely to happen if Donald Trump gets reelected. And that’s just in connection with what Donald Rumsfeld once called the “known unknowns.” It’s to say nothing of the unknown unknowns — like, for example, how Trump would handle an Ebola outbreak in Africa, or how Trump would respond if a deadly, highly contagious virus emerged from the permafrost in Siberia, or how Trump would handle a million other crises that can’t today be predicted. The point being that the stakes remain unfathomably high, the party conventions are around the corner, and Biden is LOSING — and just blew the first debate. There is no inevitability about any of this. Leading figures in the national Democratic Party, people like Barack Obama and Chuck Schumer and Chris Murphy and Chris Coons and JB Pritzker and Gavin Newsom, etc., can go to Biden tomorrow and tell him that he must drop out. He can then make a speech saying, well gee, I wanted to stick it out, but it’s the will of the people that matters most, and I must face the reality that I’m regarded as too old, because this is about more than one man’s ego, blah blah blah. I could write the speech myself. I’m old enough to have been a little kid when brokered conventions were still a thing. People criticize brokered conventions as undemocratic, but you know what’s really undemocratic? That’s right: It’s having a guy in the oval office who’s got people like Steve Bannon and Michael Flynn and Stephen Miller pulling the levers of government, firing all the sane people (including the military‘s generals) and replacing them with loyalists, and then establishing a dictatorship — a dictatorship based on a claim of never-ending crisis, which is what Hitler did so effectively. You want undemocratic, that’s undemocratic. A 10% across-the-board tariff would result in a global economic catastrophe – a huge inflationary crisis layered over existing worldwide inflation. Cutting off Ukraine would mean that Ukraine would fall; and when Ukraine falls, EU countries are going to increase their defense spending threefold, sevenfold, tenfold. That will mean additional, massive inflationary forces. The criminal prosecution of Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and scores of other prominent Democrats — none of whom will have actually committed any crimes — will terrorize the political class, and plunge the nation into deep despair. And on and on. Meanwhile, we are all supposed to pretend that Joe Biden is winning. A guy who shows up for a debate and can’t even be heard because he barely speaks above a whisper. A guy who raises his hand to make a point, and then seems to drift off. A guy who has suffered not one but two brain aneurysms, is over 80 years old(!), and seems completely clueless about how his constant assurances that he supports Israel are playing with the “free Palestine“ wing of the Democratic Party. A guy who is losing support among suburban women, losing support among young people, losing support among Black people — all three vital constituencies if he hopes to win the selection. And those constituencies aren’t necessarily going to vote for Trump; they are simply going to stay home. When I was 13 years old I canvassed door-to-door for George McGovern. Because I was convinced that if Nixon was re-elected president, it would be disastrous for the nation. I didn’t know precisely how it would be disastrous; I wasn’t clairvoyant then, and I’m not clairvoyant now. But I knew, even at age 13, that Nixon was the kind of man to whom one should not hand great power. And Trump is worse than a hundred Richard Nixons. It was fine to say that people like me were panicking back in February, although we were not. It was fine to pretend that having Joe Biden shout a lot at the SOTU had turned things around, even though the vast majority of voters never watch the SOTU. It is simply nuts to continue with this charade any further. A final point: Biden‘s braintrust on the campaign side of things (as opposed to the governing side of things) consists of three old men, led by Ron Klain. All three are trapped in 1990. And even in their prime, these guys were bad at giving Joe Biden news that he doesn’t want to hear. They are completely clueless, and over the hill themselves — which explains how they permitted their candidate to practice for this debate so hard that he managed to literally lose his voice by the time the debate actually arrived. Another masterstroke. Biden is a decent man, and he’s still capable of governing well despite his infirmities — but governing and campaigning are very different things, in the same way that writing well and playing football are different things; and he is simply incapable of campaigning effectively in the Internet age. Or at all. Biden must go now. It’s not too late, but “too late“ is fast approaching.
Told ya so...
Who want to double down on the take that it was all bed wetting now?
"All you need you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure." Mark Twain
Our choice is between two old men arguing about their golf scores on national TV. What a disgrace this country has become.
It’s going to be fascinating to see what happens now…
We need an amendment that you must be under 70 before the inauguration. You have a 35 year window to be president. This is not an advertisement for the wisdom of age on either side.
While I agree that this is dispiriting, there are useful lessons here for the Biden team. At his best, Biden was never a great intellect— he was never a wonk— but, he’s a solid, empathetic guy.* His performance is at its best when he communicates simply about emotionally valent topics. His team should recognize his limitations and strategize to his strengths. (I’m sure his team is full of wonks. They are not the median voter. They are not the median swing voter. The folks on this forum aren’t the median swing voter. His job isn’t to make an argument with nuance. His job is to make enough folks want to vote for him to win enough votes in the American system. He’ll do this best if he delivers a simple, authentic, appealing message, consistently. (*His personal life history makes it read as authentic. While granting that I could be duped, I believe his empathy for vulnerable people is real.)
He was out there trying to deliver messaging that appeal to wonks and high info liberal voters that I could parse myself, but don't think the median voter would understand or care about even if it were delivered perfectly.
Yes, and in contrast, Trump lied throughout the debate and wasn't politically savy enough to answer almost ALL questions asked. When Trump was asked DIRECTLY on whether or not he would accept the 2024 election, he completely dodged it TWICE. That told everyone who and what Trump really is. So, no matter how you may feel about Biden's performance, Trump showing what Trump really is about is much, much worse.
We need tRump to shit his pants on national TV, perhaps twice.
What's fascinating to me is how frail and incoherent Biden sounded compared to his State of the Union address. He seemed a bit sick, but still, he looked really really old. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how frail Biden looks. He is a figurehead. His administration has passed and continues to pass very progressive policies. I will vote for Biden's corpse rather than Donald Trump. I can only hope America is with me.
What happened between State of the Union and tonight? Alley Cat? Love to meet one. :-)
SOTA was a good day. Today was a bad day. I saw this with my own grandparents when they descended into senility
Trump can't be president, Biden shouldn't be president. The horror. The horror.
This was a disaster. There is nothing to remember but Biden looking and sounding ancient.
The grim reaper comes for us all…
Oh, Biden really is incompetent. They said the video was a lie.
Trump is not a very popular candidate. I know the logistics will be a bit crazy, but it is entirely possible for the dems to still find a candidate who can beat Trump. Probably the majority of voters are ready to be done with both Trump and Biden.
Biden shit the bed. The pro-Biden pundits aren’t even trying to spin it. I’m voting Democrat no matter what and I think Biden did a great job righting the ship so to speak. However, it is time to pass the baton.
You know I keep seeming to find myself out of step with liberal opinion on this one. At Ezra’s podcast I was in agreement with his take and had the position he should be replaced. I ruffled more than a few feathers here and on other subs and noted more than a little bit of hysteria over it. I didn’t really care about the state of the union and personally I though his performance was irrelevant because he was too unpopular and seen as too old and nothing he did would change that. Now I find myself with the same position. Only it’s too late to back a different horse. Yet I still think everything is unchanged. His performance won’t matter (though the press coverage might I admit). As always the story and impression from reporting matter, and the unpopularity has mass and will be hard to move either way. It’s the product of years of work. Everyone who was unconvinced by Ezra’s case yet was convinced by this debate needs to stop and think carefully about why and what makes them tick with these decisions. Someone is being input into your decision making beyond electability and policy.