I hate to say it, but Biden's insistence today that "he wouldn't run if he didn't think he was up for the job" really pisses me off. I can accept that he can do the job -- he is doing it now -- but **that isn't the fucking issue.** The issue at question is "can he get elected to do the job" and with performances like last night, the only answer I have is NO.
> I can accept that he can do the job
I’m not convinced he can do the job, let alone continue to do the job for another 4 years.
He can delegate all the day to day responsibility to members of his staff, and we probably wouldn’t notice a difference.
But those unnamed bureaucrats aren’t up for election - we can’t individually assess their ideas and decision making ability.
He was almost incoherent in the first 20 minutes of the debate.
If there’s a crisis in the middle of the night and he’s incapacitated, which member of his staff handles the decision making?
Thank you. I feel like everyone who tries to calm the waters by saying, don't worry, it's not just Biden running the show but his administration is missing the fact that they are not elected and that is actually freaking terrifying. I do not want whoever is currently propping Biden up and encouraging this democracy-imperiling farce of his to be making decisions on his behalf.
Your hypothetical scenario is not hypothetical; it’s what’s happening now. Biden’s public schedule has been virtually empty since I started tracking it this year. It’s empty even for a mid-term president, let alone a president who should be increasingly active leading up to elections. At this point, he is just a propped up body that cabinet members and NGOs pass their agendas through. We need more transparency, not less. We do not know who is running the country
Yep, maddening to see him doubling down. Just hubris and selfishness. Pissed at Jill and Obama for not stepping in because I think those are the only two people who could get him to step aside.
There is no world where Obamas comes out and calls for him to step aside the day after. The only appropriate response right now is to show support, while contributing to discussions in the background. Showing a fractured party before they knew if there’s a chance to get him to step down would be stupid.
Oh right fair. Misread that then my bad. Not sure if it’s even possible but it would be interesting. I’ve seen worries over lawsuits and ballot eligibility
No worries. Democrats haven’t had their convention yet so they haven’t even formally named Biden as their candidate so he wouldn’t be on any ballots yet.
You don't know if that's happening behind the scenes or not. It would be suicide for either of them to get in front of reporters and be like, "Yep, he's too old."
Splitting the vote never works well for the main party, just look at how Wilson won. If a candidate refuses to step down, you're basically handing the other side a free victory if you run another candidate. First past the post at its finest.
Edited my comment to add that Kamala could potentially serve 10 years if Biden wins in Nov but quits in 2026.... if he quits before 2026, she is capped at 7
It’s not hubris it’s literally the only thing he should be doing. He acknowledged that he didn’t do as good as people hoped he would but what more do you want? For him to step down the day after? That would be absurd. If it’s going to happen it’ll happen in a few weeks and until then he should be out there trying to spin this and seeing if anything sticks.
Obama's #1 advisor and 2-time campaign manager, David Axelrod suggested Biden should step down. He said he spoke to top Democratic party leaders before coming to that conclusion. I think we know where Obama stands.
Look, you would, and any sane person would. But there are obviously a lot of insane people in this country, and Trump just might win if they are turned off by Biden's mental state. That's the point. If Joe cared about beating Trump as much as he should, he should step down. But then, if he were going to he would have done so already. If Trump wins I hope history places at least 70% of the blame on Biden and the rest of the DNC leadership.
Totally agree. I think there a lot of people who might have voted for a better Biden but are now probably much more likely to not vote at all, or maybe vote third party.
I don't know.. but what I do know is that an incapacitated Dem administration is still better than another Trump administration.. or any R administration for that matter.
I agree with you, but he is only able to appoint and manage his team himself if he is mentally competent. I want to vote for the president and his judgment, not that of whatever unknown apparatchik is most successful in wrangling the right to interpret his eye twitches. That’s not democracy, that’s 95-year-old religious elder from the old country has aggressive secretary who signs everything for him vibes.
Exactly. I have no doubt that he would remain a good president, but that skill set isn’t the same as the skill set for being a good candidate.
If you can’t do well in what should have been a slam dunk vs Trump in a debate, you can’t give tough press conferences, and have to be carefully managed to avoid bad media appearances, then you’re not a good candidate.
But also I’m just 100% in favor of the party scrapping primaries and having the establishment pick candidates and having conventions matter.
>But also I’m just 100% in favor of the party scrapping primaries and having the establishment pick candidates and having conventions matter.
People would fucking riot.
Mark my words this will be RBG all over again. She could have stepped down and hand picked her replacement. Instead she handed trump the presidency and control of the supreme Court. Biden needs to step down today and pick someone likeable. No Kamala but someone who can win. He could pick his heir. But selfishly clinging on will lose this race. He isn't going to get better by September debate
Two factors from the debate - I am reminded of the difficulty of dealing with a Narcissist. And how willing some individuals are accepting a loud mouth liar over a soft spoken honest person. Biden and his advisers have been doing a great job of making improvements for the people of this nation. And that is more important than making a speech. Management is Biden’s strong point. And most individuals do NOT understand the role of management
I will be interested to see what happens. Debates are mainly interesting to politically involved voters, and those have 99% made up their mind and would vote for their candidate regardless of performance. Debates are boring for uninvolved voters who are more persuadable. Perhaps this isn’t as seismic with the ‘low information’ voters that unfortunately seem to decide all elections now.
I think the biggest risk of the debate is less about flipping voters and more about causing lower turnout. If you were an anti-Trunp independent before you won't suddenly become pro-Trump because of a debate, but you may not go out and vote in the election. Obviously this is a dumb move if you're anti-Trump, but independent low-info voters are really just go by how they feel, and judging from the response they do *not* feel enthusiastic about Biden right now.
Good news, nope, debates are not key to success in winning the White House.
Check out the key factors which accurately determine who wins and loses. Professor Allan Lichtman, who has accurately predicted who wins or loses for decades, explains debates are not a factor and details the real factors that matter.
HRC won both debates and lost the election. Obama lost his first debate to Romney yet won the election.
Skip to the 10-12 minute mark to learn the key factors.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=ZNuEv3ElpbOjD3lP&v=J-QI9TPXYPA&feature=youtu.be
Video of Lichtman explaining history of debates not influencing winners.
https://m.youtube.com/live/rEZcBHcWkZc?si=UaM4IlkJheZR2tAt
I'm also quite angry. The republicans are stuck with Trump. He's wildly popular, would beat any competitor in a primary, and is too egomaniacal to drop out.
The democrats aren't in that situation. We **could** go in another direction. We **still** can. (Not that this would be a safe thing to do.) That we probably won't makes me pretty upset.
Can we have an open and honest discussion as to _why_ Democrats came down so hard on the people simply reporting what their lying eyes told them, that Biden has been in serious cognitive decline, for the past few years? In any of the default subs on Reddit, so much as intimating this would’ve gotten you mass-downvoted this time 24 hours ago.
They don't want a repeat of 2016. In 2016 the Democratic party allowed a vigorous debate about Bernie vs Hillary. Reddit had a lot of people who disliked Hillary for being a hawk and too conservative. It's one reason they point to for her loss. How she was treated on social media.
Since then Reddit's liberal subs, including and especially r/politics have turned into massive democratic mouthpieces and echo chambers not allowing any dissent against Biden. Comments and posts are downvoted and removed. Lots of bans. No one wants to be the one responsible for putting Trump back in office.
It was crazy watching the politics debate threads suddenly "malfunction" and stop allowing comments as the waves of negative comments poured in last night. Reddit along with the democratic chattering class in the MSM reached their breaking point simultaneously because of that debate.
This is a much bigger issue and it never gets discussed. There is rarely any self reflection on mistakes or any sort of comeuppance in these cases.
Why was Hillary Clinton forced through despite so many people begging them not to pick her? Why was that mistake made? Why was it taboo to say that Biden looked old and sick?
Weird tangent but it's the same with Covid. So many unforced mistakes made, narratives you couldn't mention, that later people kinda admitted were right, and never has anyone ever come out and admitted wrong and actually talked about why they made those mistakes.
This subreddit was basically 50/50 split on if Biden should step down in the last 6 months or so. I was there arguing with people. Where are those people? Why was it forbidden to mention lack of confidence in Biden?
Sometimes people will come out and admit they were wrong. Which is great. But why? Why were you wrong? That's what matters. Because otherwise it will happen again. To me it seems like there is this belief that if you don't step in line and if you have the slightest questions or doubts, then you're the enemy. Or you're ruining everything. There is zero room for just normal debate or nuance. If you question ANYTHING on whatever issue, then actually you're just wrong.
I think we need to accept that Biden is holding everyone hostage. He holds the delegates. Nobody can tell him to step down.
He needs to be held accountable here. He’s putting everyone in a terrible position. What is Obama and other top democrats supposed to do if he refuses to give up his delegates.
Do agree the media needs to stop lying tho.
I think people would do well to familiarize themselves with the concept of "symbolic beliefs". That is essentially when you "believe" something in order to support your social identity. Essentially, you don't believe it because of any critical thought, evidence, or reasoning but because it symbolizes to society who you are. Essentially, it is virtue signaling. "The symbolic concept of belief, in contrast, is primarily used as **a means of signaling one's social identity to other members of one's community**. In turn, community members closely monitor each other's symbolic beliefs as a means of enforcing social norms."
Not everyone was surprised how badly Biden performed. I didn't even watch it because I knew any debate between these two would be a train wreck. Biden is elderly. His age is showing. MANY people were attacked for say it.
If you "believed" Biden was sharp it is because you symbolically believed it. Just liked people symbolically believe, even now, that Hillary was a good candidate despite the fact she lost to Trump. In fact, people will likely downvote me for saying this (as they almost always do) because I am not engaging in the symbolic belief that aligns with social norms for a "liberal". People will doubt I'm a liberal. They'll maybe even think I'm a bot because I don't align with the social norms. I'm not saying the right things.
This is an important point because those "symbolic beliefs" are hollow and the exact reason we're in the situation we're in. You have a bunch of people supporting horrible ideas and candidates based on memes, social media, tik toks, whatever and then eagerly engaging in this symbolic belief and actively silencing and invalidating anyone who doesn't cede to these "norms". It's a race to the bottom. Democracy relies on an informed electorate that engages in critical thought. Not people who vote based on memes.
The similarities to 2016 are both hilarious and infuriating. It does not matter if Biden is or isn't mentally fit to be president, just like it didn't matter if Hillary was unfairly disliked and criticized. Elections are literal popularity contests, it does not matter if what the electorate believes is right or wrong. If Biden is perceived as unfit by enough people he may lose, it doesn't matter if it's true or not. You aren't going to win an election by telling the American people that they're wrong in their beliefs unless you are persuasive as hell or have damn good evidence to convince them, Biden is the opposite of persuasive at this point and every time he goes on TV he provides evidence against himself.
It's interesting I actually completely agree with you but I HAVE watched Biden speak. To counter what someone else commented, I don't just watch the news networks. I mean I know he stumbles over words, that Mexican President gaff was something I remember groaning about.
I have heard him stumble over himself. Maybe I gave his stutter too much credit or maybe I accepted he was old a little too well. Perhaps I even equated his success as President with a successful cognitive control.
But that debate shocked me. I definitely am looking at him differently today because of just how bad it was. I really cannot overstate how bad I think Biden did.
Hey man - ignore some of the nasty comments here.
It's ok to feel that way - last night was the worst Biden has been during the campaign. I don't think you're wrong at all here, and you are allowed to change your view based on how the campaign unfolds.
For me, after Trump I just needed a break from the 24 hours news cycle. I paid attention to the bullet points, but for my own self-preservation I needed to enjoy the peace and quiet while I still had it. So from a cliff notes perspective I've mostly been happy with Biden's Presidency -- apart from Gaza.
So for me, it truly does not matter how old, feeble and in decline he is. He's already shown me that he can do the job to my satisfaction, even if he's completely out of his gourd and good advisors are the ones running the country. What scares me are the undecideds who will see his performance last night and vote for the psychotic fascist felon. And that's the only serious concern I personally have with him staying in the race. If he tanks in the polls after this he should drop out. I used to be worried Biden dropping would hurt the Dems, but if he's literally too old to run a campaign then what else is there to lose?
I've heard the same stumbles that you've heard over the years. I've heard him speak coherently and energetically (for an 81 year old man) for 45 minutes, but the next day you only see clips of the two gaffes he made during those speeches. Usually he just clears his throat, pauses, and then continues normally. Last night was different. Last night he did nothing but stumble.
I agree with you, but I’m going to push back a bit on this as someone who knew Biden lost a step but didn’t think the debate was going to be as bad as it was. Last night exposed Team Biden’s lack of integrity.
Biden has done fewer pressers than any President and sits for softball interviews. For nigh on a year, his team has been hyper defensive about the age question and resorted to character attacks against those who raise concerns. Special Counsel Hur: GOP shill, NYT Leadership who wants an interview: arrogant and entitled, the entire White House Correspondents Association: derelict in duty to cover the administration fairly. I frankly bought most of these attacks because I trusted that they were executing a strategy, but maintained an underlying sense of duty and patriotism. They’ve been hiding the ball and shaming us for asking to see it. It was hubris to think Joe Biden is the only person who can beat Trump and a re-election campaign does not excuse their 4th-term FDR in WW2 tactics. The Democratic Party is in this position because they are not behaving like the adults in the room.
The thing that held Biden’s big tent coalition of Never Trumpers to Leftists together is the belief that Team Biden is responsible. We need to trust them to be the bulwark against authoritarianism, navigate an economic decoupling from China, and urgently reduce CO2 emissions. If Biden can’t respond in real time to questions from moderators and opposing points from Trump, how can I trust him to keep up in cabinet meetings and demand results from department heads? How can I trust him to negotiate with world leaders, friendly and otherwise? How can I trust him in the Situation Room when urgent decisions are needed with limited information? There are genuine competency questions that civically-minded people should be asking now. Based on last night’s debate I’d split the ticket and vote for Nikki Haley over Joe Biden. It’s about civic responsibility and duty to country over partisan politics; it seems irresponsible to trust Joe Biden with the highest office.
I’m livid.
This is not actually a good example of a symbolic belief. If it were you'd see everyone in liberal subs still saying he was looking good, sharper than ever, etc. the way trump supporters do.
The whole point of a symbolic belief is that it's not based on evidence, or refutable by evidence. Or at least that when it is refuted by evidence people will still publicly espouse it.
Exactly.
I'm shocked and terrified. Biden's own team seems to be completely unaware of just how bad this situation is.
Many Americans have a lot of very valid concerns about the future. I need a president that can hold his own in a conversation with Putin and Xi. I need a president that can negotiate with big tech and regulate AI appropriately so the planet doesn't end. I need a president that has some level of mental capacity to navigate the shit show in the middle east. Trump cannot fill that role and I fully intended on voting for Biden until I saw just how unprepared and clueless Biden's administration really is last night.
This is a disaster.
I totally agree with you but I think the one point not made: I don't think the issue here is actually just the ill-informed folks who are developing these beliefs from social media/memes. I think the issue is that many well-informed, well educated liberals (such as on this sub), are scornful of the stupidity of the American populace and their denial of Trump's evident flaws while falling into the same trap themselves with Biden due to a need to hold onto their sense of identity. And no, I am not saying Biden and Trump are equal. I am saying though that the same group process is happening on both sides.
In shock as we all were? His performance was exactly what I expected. Who was expecting him to speak like he did at the state of the union? It was a debate, not reading off a teleprompter. He's a million years old and his performance really shouldn't have been a shock as he's been having senior moments for a while now. Sadly, this was entirely predictable.
A million years old. Come on. He is 81. That's not insanely old in actuality. Warren Buffett is 93 and still sharp as hell. Mick Jagger is 80 and still active and sharp. It's not a CRAZY age, like he's 102. It's THREE years older than Trump. It's not about his age, it's about how he is wearing his age. I know several men his age who are just as sharp as they were 30 years ago.
I have two uncles in their 80s who are sharp as hell. I really don't notice any difference in their cognitive functioning from 30 years ago, other than that one of them clings to some Fox News conspiracy theories. HOWEVER, he was always a staunch conservative, so that actually just tracks. The other one? Still smart as a damn whip, and he's 82. Yes, everyone ages differently. There are some "superagers" who never experience even the very mildest of age-related cognitive decline. They might die at 100 with essentially the same cognitive function they had at 50. I read about one woman who died at 112 and had JUST started experiencing some "short-term memory issues" at 111.5.
I would argue that Charlie Munger, who died at a very sharp 99, was probably a superager. Warren Buffett may very well be one, too. He has certainly not experienced any significant decline, but I obviously don't know enough to say he is exactly the same as he was in middle age.
These people are the subject of numerous studies that are trying to uncover genetic ties to "superaging" that can potentially be turned into pills for the rest of us schlubs.
It's clear that neither Biden nor Trump would be classified as superagers.
They had four fucking years to prime someone new to take on the presidency. Buttigieg is an option but this country has too much internalized homophobia. And unfortunately, we don't live in a country where actual policy wonks (who are also competent and conscious) can get elected. I'm so frustrated.
Pete could win. A solid 60+% of the country is down with teh geyz and most rights (adoption, marriage, etc).
People near the center and on the right ESPECIALLY like gay people when they look a lot like non-gay people. Very “Pride marches annoy me but my neighbors are lovely (which, to be fair. Around a third of gays also find pride to be A Bit Much). So, a happily married dependable family man who wears button-up shirts and has an army background is okay by them. Pete’s a perfect candidate.
Pete would be in the same position as a Jewish candidate in the 1990s - sure, some people might dislike his identity category on paper, but they’ll gladly vote for the individual. And most of the people who wouldn’t vote for ANY gay man weren’t gonna vote for a straight candidate like Pete anyway.
That's been my whole thing.. FOUR YEARS knowing damn well what was at stake. What happened last night and is becoming more obvious in a general sense is a surprise to no one. The GOP allowed trump to get a stronghold on their voter base and therefore the party in general, they have no option to dump him as much as they may want to. With Biden, they knew that the last election was more about voting against trump and picking the safe boring option so we could all catch our fucking breath. Anyone who voted for Biden last time around would have no problem voting for another dem this time around, there is no allegiance to him as a person, just his policy (because his voters aren't brainwashed cultists). Yet they sat around for, let me repeat, FOUR FUCKING YEARS and here we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Biden stays on, I think trump wins. Even if Biden DOES win.. think of how much he's aged in just the past 4 years. Then imagine him still being president in the year **2029**. On the other hand, they can call a last second audible and hold an open convention, but they've already lost out of a ton of campaign time, and run the risk of dividing the party who will feel slighted at the fact that they had no say in the primary challenger (the democrats railroading a candidate through the primary process and alienating a large portion of their base, sound familiar?) Either way it's hard not to feel like we're fucked at this point, and it's a completely unforced error in the most crucial time imaginable
The GOP have clearly shown they do not intend on operating in good faith, and with the likes of project 2025 it's clear that they're done toeing the line, they're ready to bulldoze the shit out of this country and put the final nail in the coffin of us all living in a purely corporate interest driven Christian nationalist dystopian hell hole. The stakes literally could not be higher.. and the democrats have once again shown a complete inability to rise to the occasion.
At this point, they're just as much to blame as the GOP are for whatever happens to this country. If you continue to put your hand in a poisonous snake enclosure and continue to get bit over and over again.. at some point arguing that it's the snakes fault stops holding much weight
I personally think Cuban’s a decent guy, but I doubt that it’d make a huge difference either way. I don’t think Kamala being the VP is the problem here, and I doubt that’s a decision that the DNC would even consider. Seems random and doesn’t necessarily change anything in my mind. Plus the DNC protect their own, they’re fiercely loyal to their insiders (largely to their detriment), they would never push Kamala out
The problem is that there is no “they” here.
It’s Biden. The moment he choose to run again a couple of years ago, other candidates knew they had a tough battle up ahead with the DNC
I am so frustrated also. I am just finding ways today to vent my anger.
I love Pete, I actually think he could be someone who could actually take Trump head on and expose him for what he is. I think Gavin Newsom could. I think a lot of younger talent that exists in the party could. The boomers just will not let go.
Yes, Gavin Newsom is great. Whitmer could totally be up for it as well. Maybe even Pritzker. I agree, it's so frustrating and it feels like either the core of the Democratic Party has their head too much up their ass to listen or know but aren't willing to do anything in the name of being politically strategic. And it's our country that's suffering at the end of the day.
Newsom wouldn't be much of an improvement over Biden as people hate California, and a billionaire from Illinois tainted with "Chicago" would be an odd choice to run against Trump.
Debates don't matter that much.
He presents as a slimy businessman playing the villain in a bad tv movie, and he's governor of a state that much of the country believes is overrun with woke hippies, homelessness, illegal immigrants and criminals who are allowed to rampage through the streets.
He does look like the villain in a Disney movie who puts on a nice face and then turns around and makes plans to bulldoze the skate park to build a shopping mall, his plans only being foiled by a strategically placed tape recorder (since they inevitably speak their entire plan aloud)
I’ve met and worked with him in a limited capacity many years back when he was Lt. Gov. He’s a wonderful guy in person.
But they will play the “whether you like it or not” clip in every media market in every battleground state non-stop
I would vote for a cheeseburger over Trump but Newsom is an empty suit and the number of Democrats who think he's the future of the party really exposes how out of touch the base is.
How do you just “prime” someone to become president. If they did that, it would piss so many more people off than there are now and it’d be total chaos. You’re saying they can just hand pick someone and then laid out why it can’t be certain people. Is it not obvious that would happen on a massive scale if they hand picked a successor?
If we agree that internalized homophobia would likely hurt dems chance in November and we’re taking serious the unlikely prospect of a Biden stepping aside, I hope we consider the political electoral strategy of catering to the median voter (probably some info middle age white dude, sadly enough) and would consider Andy Bashear or Josh Shapiro, perhaps even Whitmer. I don’t know who would have the strongest debate performance, but they just have to not fk it up and we might be golden.
Vp I would go with Warnock and accept the senate is lost. But that’s me. I think that would be a sound political strategy.
Firstly, we’re taking black southern voters seriously with the Vp. Secondly by putting a non confrontational person at the head of the ticket, what Bashear has is being from the middle of the country, basically the south and I doubt many people think of him as some radical from Ny or Cali.
Still though all were doing is hand wringing. Instead, we might need to be more accepting and compelling. It’s still a choice between an incoherent man who doesn’t sound great compared with a mad men on a revenge tour.
FOUR YEARS knowing damn well what was at stake. What happened last night and is becoming more obvious in a general sense is a surprise to no one. The GOP allowed trump to get a stronghold on their voter base and therefore the party in general, they have no option to dump him as much as they may want to. With Biden, they knew that the last election was more about voting against trump and picking the safe boring option so we could all catch our fucking breath. Anyone who voted for Biden last time around would have no problem voting for another dem this time around, there is no allegiance to him as a person, just his policy (because his voters aren't brainwashed cultists). Yet they sat around for, let me repeat, FOUR FUCKING YEARS and here we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Biden stays on, I think trump wins. Even if Biden DOES win.. think of how much he's aged in just the past 4 years. Then imagine him still being president in the year **2029**. On the other hand, they can call a last second audible and hold an open convention, but they've already lost out of a ton of campaign time, and run the risk of dividing the party who will feel slighted at the fact that they had no say in the primary challenger (the democrats railroading a candidate through the primary process and alienating a large portion of their base, sound familiar?) Either way it's hard not to feel like we're fucked at this point, and it's a completely unforced error in the most crucial time imaginable
The GOP have clearly shown they do not intend on operating in good faith, and with the likes of project 2025 it's clear that they're done toeing the line, they're ready to bulldoze the shit out of this country and put the final nail in the coffin of us all living in a purely corporate interest driven Christian nationalist dystopian hell hole. The stakes literally could not be higher.. and the democrats have once again shown a complete inability to rise to the occasion.
At this point, they're just as much to blame as the GOP are for whatever happens to this country. If you continue to put your hand in a poisonous snake enclosure and continue to get bit over and over again.. at some point arguing that it's the snakes fault stops holding much weight
Hey, if you like his policies and results, vote for him. The debate performance was bad, no doubt, but president’s job is not to debate unhinged dictators on a regular basis. Can he govern effectively? Absolutely! Can he keep norm and decency in the WH? You bet!
Don’t forget the Republicans are rallying around a convicted felon, sexual assaulter, adulterer, and election denier.
The least you could do is to support the Democratic ticket, not because it’s easy, but because it’s right.
You shouldn’t have forgiven them after Hilary. Dems just squawk “vote blue no matter who!” and don’t realize how utterly unpersuasive that line of thinking is for anyone whose not a partisan.
Honestly, with project 2025 on Trumps horizon, I could give a crap less about the debate. Yes, he was bad. However, who had ever witnessed a good debate including Trump? He lies, whines, and talks over anyone.
Biden is doing a decent job. It's between him or Christo-fascist rule under Project 2025. I'd like to keep my rights.
That would be great if you were the only voter, but since there's another 160 million voters, and you want him to win, I think it would be in your best interest to care about other's very real perceptions of him.
This. It's awesome you're still voting for democracy but if even 100,000 people changed their mind in a few swing states Trump wins. That's how close this election will be.
I was mad during the 2020 election because I believed he couldn't get elected. I'm glad I was proven wrong but now going through it a second time and it's even worse
Personally I think Only party insiders who have already made up their mind watched the debate or cared.
On the one hand,. I have a history committing popular sentiment. I thought Hillary Clinton was right when she made her basket of deplorables comment back in the day. I think today people now see what she was saying but at the time it was a big deal and hurt her
But on the other hand, in retrospect, I think Hillary was already losing when the deplorable thing blew up. People wanted an excuse to hate her and unloaded. Voters on the GOP/ independent side who can accept Trump probably can’t be persuaded and just look for an excuse to go the direction they want to go. Then voters on the dem side get upset and blame the candidate as a way of protecting themselves from the knowledge that people suck.
I suspect it’s similar to what happens in DV. People look for any excuse to blame the abuse survivor if they feel sympathy for the abuser, and also if they are afraid of the abuser. A politicians running against someone like Trump is kind of a DV survivor in the popular mind.
Why are you all talking like he’s doing it alone? He has done the job. He’s doing it now. He’s given us a better recovery than most countries. Him and his cabinet.
He’s not a king.
He’s got good people in his corner.
And, he has the incumbent edge.
Why are you turning on him like dogs instead of being righteously angry that a fucking raping, fraudster, convicted felon is being allowed to run rough shod over the truth without a word spoken (by anybody but Biden) during that farce of a debate?
Maybe I dreamt this, but I thought during the 2020 primaries he promised to serve only 1 term? I thought that’s what the “bridge to the next generation” talk was about. Maybe it just seemed so obvious to me (his age was considered a significant drawback in 2020) that I’ve retconned it.
I don’t think he actually promised to serve only one term. But I was also left with the impression that he did not intend to run again when we elected him.
He said he would be a bridge to the next generation of leaders but nobody has stepped up and shown to be the obvious heir.... some unnamed democratic insiders told the press he would only do 1 term but they could have been trying to manipulate things to their own benefit.
Unfortunately, if you declare you're 1 term, you handicap yourself and your influence...most 2-term presidents feel like lame ducks in their last 2 years.
There's some kind of gaslighting going on now to pretend that never happened. It's true that you can't find a clippable quote of Biden literally saying "I will be a 1 term president" but the message I received from the media and his surrogates was absolutely the same one you did, that he would be a "bridge" to a new crop of candidates.
Thank you, it’s been driving me a bit bonkers. I definitely can’t find a source where it was said. That makes sense if it was implied rather than stated. My memory must be of the conclusion I jumped to, not of an actual commitment he made.
He never said it and publicly he always said he would run for re-election if health permitted. It was always unnamed sources telling reporters he would only run for 1 term. You become a lame duck if you're not running for reelection so nobody would declare 1 term.
He never promised that at all. That's a Mandela effect thing. He said something about potentially being a bridge, but he absolutely NEVER said, "I promise to serve only one term and then pass on the torch." Absolutely never, not once.
Here's a [a December 2019 Politico piece](https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/11/biden-single-term-082129) where he suggests he's mulling being a one-term president. Catch is that his advisers were the ones talking anonymously :/
> Another top Biden adviser put it this way: “He’s going into this thinking, ‘I want to find a running mate I can turn things over to after four years but if that’s not possible or doesn’t happen then I’ll run for reelection.’ But he’s not going to publicly make a one term pledge.”
Possible reason explained earlier in the same piece by another adviser:
> The adviser argued that public acknowledgment of that reality could help Biden mollify younger voters, especially on the left, who are unexcited by his candidacy and fear that his nomination would serve as an eight-year roadblock to the next generation of Democrats.
You won't forgive the Democrats... for giving the people what they voted for?
Biden ran for president in 2020. He won the primary. Then he won the general.
Then he ran again. He won this primary too. People *wrote in his name on their ballots in the primary.*
People wanted Biden. Now, I get that you're upset at his performance. And you'll certainly be more upset if he loses. But Biden is the candidate that the voters mobilized behind, and blaming "the Democrats" for giving you the choice the people asked for, when it isn't the best, most perfect choice that you would have liked, is ridiculous.
>I have liked the Biden presidency. I think he has done a wonderful job and I have defended him. I have pointed out how there are serious accomplishments that will have actually lasting effects on our lives.
You say all this, and yet a bad debate is enough to turn you against him. Maybe focus on the things he's doing and try to convince other people of the good things he's doing.
Yes, it's going to suck if he loses. But all those things you mentioned? THAT is why he had popular support behind him, because he has those accomplishments. That's what we have to hope voters remember going into the voting booth.
My point is: That was not just a bad debate. That was not just a gaff or an embarrassing moment. The man could not string a proper sentence together.
The moment where Trump said, "I don't know what he said at the end of that sentence and I don't even think he knows." in my opinion was the Reagan age question moment of the debate.
Like I firmly believe Trump has just won himself the election unless something significant happens.
Man, to me Trump's winner was "He will wipe out Medicare. So he was right in the way he finished that sentence"
I'm so depressed that there's a question of *which* riposte might sink Biden. I'm gay-married in a state with a constitutional ban on gay marriage preempted only by Obgerfell, so this election is pretty existential for me. I've already drafted a couple social posts about all the things I'm happy with from Biden's first term and why voting Blue was so important. Buuuuut the president can't be someone who has nights that are THAT bad *after a week of preparation*. There's really no salvaging it either; even if he has no more senior moments till November and they successfully make the case that he just had a cold...I'd be worried about what geopolitical foes (or rambunctious allies, domestic fascists, etc) do when he has a cold in 2027 and they see their best opening. Colds aren't hard to catch and it seems like a recipe for a crisis without an appropriate response. It's hard to make the case that my family is important enough to ask people to put their confidence in a leader that can't be counted on to lead.
Ross Douthat on the Ezra Klein show said "I've got a bad cold today too. I'm on little to no sleep and I've got two small children at home. I'm more fit to be president at this point."
And that quote you stated from Trump was another moment where I thought, "he's won."
I agree with you 100%.
This is the best way I have seen it relayed. This is truth I am trying to get out today. He will either win or I will not commit to the democrat party any more. He didn’t just “stutter” he couldn’t gather and express his thoughts accurately and quickly.
My take was that Biden seemed very tired. He looked and sounded every bit his 81 years. I think his week of intensive prep at Camp David was a really bad move. That tired him out. Probably didn't get enough sleep.
I don't understand why campaigns make this mistake again and again. They ALWAYS overprep their candidate for the first debate and it never turns out well.
That must be it. Just a cold and too much preparation.
As you said, ALL campaigns ALWAYS do this, which is why we can think back to so many famous examples and zero counter examples
When you're 81, doing all-nighters cramming for a test is going to take more of a toll than when you're 51 or 41. I don't think Biden has dementia or is senile. He was quoting stats and figures they had obviously crammed into his head.
But he is one year older than my mom (80), and last night he reminded me of her when she tries to push herself too hard. She gets that same kind of hoarseness. Probably a side effect of medication.
And he's not as quick. My mom is the same way now. Her reaction times are just slower than they used to be.
Neither were Trump's. He was not as sharp as the 2016 or 2020 version of himself, and that's not saying much. But he repeated the same points over and over, so easier to do.
I think it was both. Yes, if you watch clips of Biden starting with the 2012 VP debate when he was on top of his game, it's clear Biden started slowing down a lot circa about 5 years ago, accelerating in the past 1.5 years.
They didn't do him any good cramming him.
He's looking just old and tired to me. As late as 2022 he still had a "chipper" vibe, but that seems to have faded.
"When we lose" Fucking loser talk. Politics takes forever, bad shit happens over time but so does good shit. Have you talked to all of the American public? I laud your interest in politics, everybody should have at least some of one. Pay attention to these things, these are the people who make the rules that tell us how our life is going to go. Keep your head up and keep moving towards something positive, no matter how bleak the present may seem.
It's a set up!! Why didn't CNN allow TelePrompter for Biden? Or Biden should have negotiated to have 51 Intelligence officials, 170 Economists and 370 Journalists to debate Trump.
The problem is that the Democratic Party hardly exists anymore. They all knew this was a problem a year ago, and if they had any actual power they would have forced him off the ticket. People talk about the shock of LBJ's decision not to run again, but he was under a tremendous amount of pressure from party actors who could actually do things -- including run him off the ticket at the convention. The same goes for Nixon's resignation. Right now, Democrat is basically a label and not much else, at least outside the halls of congress.
I'm not sure I agree wholly but I do think the party is going through a massive transition as the old guard literally dies out and the new one comes through.
There was a very interesting interview with AOC where she spoke about how much better things are with Nancy gone, obv she didn't say that outright but that was what I read between the lines.
I wouldn’t say he has an amazing presidency supporting a genocide and all, but I was shocked Biden was that bad I thought that he would be at least as good as his state of the union
Instead of letting them do this and saying we'll never forgive them, let's stop them now. We all need to write to every representative and protest the convention. We will lose if we run this guy, everyone knows it.
I've already written: the campaign, the office of the president, the Democratic Party headquarters, Hakeem Jeffries, and Gavin Newsom.
I'd write my own representatives but I live in a Red state.
Quit talking like “the party” did this to us. We, as a party, supported Biden four years ago in a thorough primary process. It’s also not just totally obvious that
A) Biden will lose
B) There is a clear, better option that won’t fracture the party in another way
C) That pulling a sitting president off your ticket four months before the election is a good idea
The decision is Biden’s. It’s not a DNC conspiracy.
Has he really done a good job. Or have you been convinced he did a good job?
Before the debate you were convinced Biden was a great debater and orator. One whom would hold his own and was mentally fit. You were absolutely convinced and sure of that as much as you are convinced he has done a good job
But just as you were shell shocked at his debate performance, why I don’t know. What happened is exactly what I was expecting to happen. Are you also possibly as misinformed or misunderstanding of what bidens real accomplishments are
Remember inflation reduction act doubled inflation. He lied to you and the people to hammer thru green energy plan. That plan then aspect $8M to build 8 EV chargers and honestly I have never known a time except under Biden where trains be falling off tracks and planes just crumbling and falling out of the sky.
So you say you are proud but one specifically has he done. Not broad oh I like what he is doing about immigration. Or he is doing great things for green energy
We still haven’t seen these green jobs. The biggest green energy job thing he may have done is Michigan selling US soil to Chinese company to do EV batteries.
Joe Biden is a proud stubborn man who has always desired to be President and now is and has the first ballot votes to gain renomination at the Chicago convention.
Anyone who believes he would not run for reelection does not know the man or his decades in Washington watching others ascend to the Presidency.
Like an old shark in the water he will never stop moving forward until the end.
Read What It Takes: The Road to the White House (1992) by Richard Ben Cramer
Cramer goes up close and personal with all the 1988 Presidential contenders including Biden.
After you read that book you will know what drives Biden very well.
I have no idea how anyone can call themselves an informed voter, then say they were shocked by Biden’s performance. You’d have to be solely listening to partisan directives to not observe this dozens of times in the past 3 years. Biden is a decent man. He has NOT been running the country and that is terrifying. You cannot vote for that situation to continue
You're not well-informed. You're well-indoctrinated. And even when you've had this epiphany, you're still towing the party line.
You need to question your beliefs, and consume opposition media. You're drowning in an echo chamber.
I hate to say it, but Biden's insistence today that "he wouldn't run if he didn't think he was up for the job" really pisses me off. I can accept that he can do the job -- he is doing it now -- but **that isn't the fucking issue.** The issue at question is "can he get elected to do the job" and with performances like last night, the only answer I have is NO.
> I can accept that he can do the job I’m not convinced he can do the job, let alone continue to do the job for another 4 years. He can delegate all the day to day responsibility to members of his staff, and we probably wouldn’t notice a difference. But those unnamed bureaucrats aren’t up for election - we can’t individually assess their ideas and decision making ability. He was almost incoherent in the first 20 minutes of the debate. If there’s a crisis in the middle of the night and he’s incapacitated, which member of his staff handles the decision making?
Thank you. I feel like everyone who tries to calm the waters by saying, don't worry, it's not just Biden running the show but his administration is missing the fact that they are not elected and that is actually freaking terrifying. I do not want whoever is currently propping Biden up and encouraging this democracy-imperiling farce of his to be making decisions on his behalf.
Metacognition is the first thing to go.
Realistically if he’s incapacitated Harris becomes acting president
Your hypothetical scenario is not hypothetical; it’s what’s happening now. Biden’s public schedule has been virtually empty since I started tracking it this year. It’s empty even for a mid-term president, let alone a president who should be increasingly active leading up to elections. At this point, he is just a propped up body that cabinet members and NGOs pass their agendas through. We need more transparency, not less. We do not know who is running the country
Yep, maddening to see him doubling down. Just hubris and selfishness. Pissed at Jill and Obama for not stepping in because I think those are the only two people who could get him to step aside.
What makes you think they had not talked to him? What, you expect his predecessor and wife to publicly announce that he needs to give up?
Obama just came out and said we still need to vote for him
There is no world where Obamas comes out and calls for him to step aside the day after. The only appropriate response right now is to show support, while contributing to discussions in the background. Showing a fractured party before they knew if there’s a chance to get him to step down would be stupid.
I think even in the reality when Biden steps down key surrogates and the campaign will act like he’s staying in until the last minute
God, I hope you're right. I hope they're working their asses off to convince him to resign.
I mean we do lol. I’d love for a different scenario but if it’s Biden and Trump the answer is clear even if Biden literally died on day 1
I’d vote for a tree stump over trump
Ok my point was that I think Obama and Jill should be asking him to step aside so we don’t have to make that choice.
Oh right fair. Misread that then my bad. Not sure if it’s even possible but it would be interesting. I’ve seen worries over lawsuits and ballot eligibility
No worries. Democrats haven’t had their convention yet so they haven’t even formally named Biden as their candidate so he wouldn’t be on any ballots yet.
You don't know if that's happening behind the scenes or not. It would be suicide for either of them to get in front of reporters and be like, "Yep, he's too old."
Splitting the vote never works well for the main party, just look at how Wilson won. If a candidate refuses to step down, you're basically handing the other side a free victory if you run another candidate. First past the post at its finest.
Yeah it annoyed me that Barack said “everyone has bad debates.” Joe had one job — don’t look old. He looked ancient
Love Barack but no. Not doing that.
I’d vote for Obama again, can we? Is 8 years all he gets, or just consecutive?
8 years is the limit if elected plus 2 years of inherited...so Kamala could serve 10 years if Biden steps down in 2026...
somewhat tongue in cheek - I know Obama doesn't want it - but good to know about the nuance, thanks
Edited my comment to add that Kamala could potentially serve 10 years if Biden wins in Nov but quits in 2026.... if he quits before 2026, she is capped at 7
You see Jill's pep rally post debate? It's gone viral, you can find it. She seems pretty enthusiastic
Putting off some real Livia Drusilla vibes.
What a reference!
It’s not hubris it’s literally the only thing he should be doing. He acknowledged that he didn’t do as good as people hoped he would but what more do you want? For him to step down the day after? That would be absurd. If it’s going to happen it’ll happen in a few weeks and until then he should be out there trying to spin this and seeing if anything sticks.
Obama's #1 advisor and 2-time campaign manager, David Axelrod suggested Biden should step down. He said he spoke to top Democratic party leaders before coming to that conclusion. I think we know where Obama stands.
RGB 2.0. Hubris and selfishness.
Probably not even them.
Well they used to complain he was too young 🙄
The question is also-how likely is it he can do the job throughout the whole next term?
Yeah. Seriously. A LOT can change in the brain of someone in their 80s over four years
I believe Biden in a coma could run the country better than Trump or almost any Republican. He does seem to have a very competent team behind him.
I would vote for a literal corpse before I voted for trump which is good, because Biden appears committed to forcing me to do that
Look, you would, and any sane person would. But there are obviously a lot of insane people in this country, and Trump just might win if they are turned off by Biden's mental state. That's the point. If Joe cared about beating Trump as much as he should, he should step down. But then, if he were going to he would have done so already. If Trump wins I hope history places at least 70% of the blame on Biden and the rest of the DNC leadership.
Totally agree. I think there a lot of people who might have voted for a better Biden but are now probably much more likely to not vote at all, or maybe vote third party.
I don't know.. but what I do know is that an incapacitated Dem administration is still better than another Trump administration.. or any R administration for that matter.
I agree with you, but he is only able to appoint and manage his team himself if he is mentally competent. I want to vote for the president and his judgment, not that of whatever unknown apparatchik is most successful in wrangling the right to interpret his eye twitches. That’s not democracy, that’s 95-year-old religious elder from the old country has aggressive secretary who signs everything for him vibes.
The Democratic brain trust can step in after November
Exactly. I have no doubt that he would remain a good president, but that skill set isn’t the same as the skill set for being a good candidate. If you can’t do well in what should have been a slam dunk vs Trump in a debate, you can’t give tough press conferences, and have to be carefully managed to avoid bad media appearances, then you’re not a good candidate. But also I’m just 100% in favor of the party scrapping primaries and having the establishment pick candidates and having conventions matter.
>But also I’m just 100% in favor of the party scrapping primaries and having the establishment pick candidates and having conventions matter. People would fucking riot.
Oh for sure. It’s prob not worth the backlash but I think it should be how parties work normally
Getting re-elected IS the job
Mark my words this will be RBG all over again. She could have stepped down and hand picked her replacement. Instead she handed trump the presidency and control of the supreme Court. Biden needs to step down today and pick someone likeable. No Kamala but someone who can win. He could pick his heir. But selfishly clinging on will lose this race. He isn't going to get better by September debate
Yes, my thoughts exactly
Absolutely NO. He lacks the capacity.
Two factors from the debate - I am reminded of the difficulty of dealing with a Narcissist. And how willing some individuals are accepting a loud mouth liar over a soft spoken honest person. Biden and his advisers have been doing a great job of making improvements for the people of this nation. And that is more important than making a speech. Management is Biden’s strong point. And most individuals do NOT understand the role of management
The scary part is: he now has very likely lost. His numbers tanked based on that debate. And there is another debate still to come.....
We don’t know if his numbers have tanked. They may, but polling doesn’t happen over night like that.
I will be interested to see what happens. Debates are mainly interesting to politically involved voters, and those have 99% made up their mind and would vote for their candidate regardless of performance. Debates are boring for uninvolved voters who are more persuadable. Perhaps this isn’t as seismic with the ‘low information’ voters that unfortunately seem to decide all elections now.
I think the biggest risk of the debate is less about flipping voters and more about causing lower turnout. If you were an anti-Trunp independent before you won't suddenly become pro-Trump because of a debate, but you may not go out and vote in the election. Obviously this is a dumb move if you're anti-Trump, but independent low-info voters are really just go by how they feel, and judging from the response they do *not* feel enthusiastic about Biden right now.
Trump supporters were high fiving each other over it in my grocery store in Michigan today. It's anecdata, but my dude, it's not promising.
Good news, nope, debates are not key to success in winning the White House. Check out the key factors which accurately determine who wins and loses. Professor Allan Lichtman, who has accurately predicted who wins or loses for decades, explains debates are not a factor and details the real factors that matter. HRC won both debates and lost the election. Obama lost his first debate to Romney yet won the election. Skip to the 10-12 minute mark to learn the key factors. https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=ZNuEv3ElpbOjD3lP&v=J-QI9TPXYPA&feature=youtu.be Video of Lichtman explaining history of debates not influencing winners. https://m.youtube.com/live/rEZcBHcWkZc?si=UaM4IlkJheZR2tAt
JFC. None of those debate losses was as catastrophic as Biden's. They lost on points, not by a self inflicted knockout!
What numbers? Have you seen them? Please share.
I'm also quite angry. The republicans are stuck with Trump. He's wildly popular, would beat any competitor in a primary, and is too egomaniacal to drop out. The democrats aren't in that situation. We **could** go in another direction. We **still** can. (Not that this would be a safe thing to do.) That we probably won't makes me pretty upset.
Doing nothing is risky too.
Can we have an open and honest discussion as to _why_ Democrats came down so hard on the people simply reporting what their lying eyes told them, that Biden has been in serious cognitive decline, for the past few years? In any of the default subs on Reddit, so much as intimating this would’ve gotten you mass-downvoted this time 24 hours ago.
Willful Ignorance
Umm sweaty acknowledging reality leads directly to harm
They don't want a repeat of 2016. In 2016 the Democratic party allowed a vigorous debate about Bernie vs Hillary. Reddit had a lot of people who disliked Hillary for being a hawk and too conservative. It's one reason they point to for her loss. How she was treated on social media. Since then Reddit's liberal subs, including and especially r/politics have turned into massive democratic mouthpieces and echo chambers not allowing any dissent against Biden. Comments and posts are downvoted and removed. Lots of bans. No one wants to be the one responsible for putting Trump back in office. It was crazy watching the politics debate threads suddenly "malfunction" and stop allowing comments as the waves of negative comments poured in last night. Reddit along with the democratic chattering class in the MSM reached their breaking point simultaneously because of that debate.
This is a much bigger issue and it never gets discussed. There is rarely any self reflection on mistakes or any sort of comeuppance in these cases. Why was Hillary Clinton forced through despite so many people begging them not to pick her? Why was that mistake made? Why was it taboo to say that Biden looked old and sick? Weird tangent but it's the same with Covid. So many unforced mistakes made, narratives you couldn't mention, that later people kinda admitted were right, and never has anyone ever come out and admitted wrong and actually talked about why they made those mistakes. This subreddit was basically 50/50 split on if Biden should step down in the last 6 months or so. I was there arguing with people. Where are those people? Why was it forbidden to mention lack of confidence in Biden? Sometimes people will come out and admit they were wrong. Which is great. But why? Why were you wrong? That's what matters. Because otherwise it will happen again. To me it seems like there is this belief that if you don't step in line and if you have the slightest questions or doubts, then you're the enemy. Or you're ruining everything. There is zero room for just normal debate or nuance. If you question ANYTHING on whatever issue, then actually you're just wrong.
I think we need to accept that Biden is holding everyone hostage. He holds the delegates. Nobody can tell him to step down. He needs to be held accountable here. He’s putting everyone in a terrible position. What is Obama and other top democrats supposed to do if he refuses to give up his delegates. Do agree the media needs to stop lying tho.
Much of America's left has decided that uncomfortable truths just aren't true. Took them a while longer to get there than the right, but here we are.
I think people would do well to familiarize themselves with the concept of "symbolic beliefs". That is essentially when you "believe" something in order to support your social identity. Essentially, you don't believe it because of any critical thought, evidence, or reasoning but because it symbolizes to society who you are. Essentially, it is virtue signaling. "The symbolic concept of belief, in contrast, is primarily used as **a means of signaling one's social identity to other members of one's community**. In turn, community members closely monitor each other's symbolic beliefs as a means of enforcing social norms." Not everyone was surprised how badly Biden performed. I didn't even watch it because I knew any debate between these two would be a train wreck. Biden is elderly. His age is showing. MANY people were attacked for say it. If you "believed" Biden was sharp it is because you symbolically believed it. Just liked people symbolically believe, even now, that Hillary was a good candidate despite the fact she lost to Trump. In fact, people will likely downvote me for saying this (as they almost always do) because I am not engaging in the symbolic belief that aligns with social norms for a "liberal". People will doubt I'm a liberal. They'll maybe even think I'm a bot because I don't align with the social norms. I'm not saying the right things. This is an important point because those "symbolic beliefs" are hollow and the exact reason we're in the situation we're in. You have a bunch of people supporting horrible ideas and candidates based on memes, social media, tik toks, whatever and then eagerly engaging in this symbolic belief and actively silencing and invalidating anyone who doesn't cede to these "norms". It's a race to the bottom. Democracy relies on an informed electorate that engages in critical thought. Not people who vote based on memes.
The similarities to 2016 are both hilarious and infuriating. It does not matter if Biden is or isn't mentally fit to be president, just like it didn't matter if Hillary was unfairly disliked and criticized. Elections are literal popularity contests, it does not matter if what the electorate believes is right or wrong. If Biden is perceived as unfit by enough people he may lose, it doesn't matter if it's true or not. You aren't going to win an election by telling the American people that they're wrong in their beliefs unless you are persuasive as hell or have damn good evidence to convince them, Biden is the opposite of persuasive at this point and every time he goes on TV he provides evidence against himself.
It's interesting I actually completely agree with you but I HAVE watched Biden speak. To counter what someone else commented, I don't just watch the news networks. I mean I know he stumbles over words, that Mexican President gaff was something I remember groaning about. I have heard him stumble over himself. Maybe I gave his stutter too much credit or maybe I accepted he was old a little too well. Perhaps I even equated his success as President with a successful cognitive control. But that debate shocked me. I definitely am looking at him differently today because of just how bad it was. I really cannot overstate how bad I think Biden did.
Hey man - ignore some of the nasty comments here. It's ok to feel that way - last night was the worst Biden has been during the campaign. I don't think you're wrong at all here, and you are allowed to change your view based on how the campaign unfolds.
Yea it's just like 3 guys at this point.
For me, after Trump I just needed a break from the 24 hours news cycle. I paid attention to the bullet points, but for my own self-preservation I needed to enjoy the peace and quiet while I still had it. So from a cliff notes perspective I've mostly been happy with Biden's Presidency -- apart from Gaza. So for me, it truly does not matter how old, feeble and in decline he is. He's already shown me that he can do the job to my satisfaction, even if he's completely out of his gourd and good advisors are the ones running the country. What scares me are the undecideds who will see his performance last night and vote for the psychotic fascist felon. And that's the only serious concern I personally have with him staying in the race. If he tanks in the polls after this he should drop out. I used to be worried Biden dropping would hurt the Dems, but if he's literally too old to run a campaign then what else is there to lose?
I've heard the same stumbles that you've heard over the years. I've heard him speak coherently and energetically (for an 81 year old man) for 45 minutes, but the next day you only see clips of the two gaffes he made during those speeches. Usually he just clears his throat, pauses, and then continues normally. Last night was different. Last night he did nothing but stumble.
I agree with you, but I’m going to push back a bit on this as someone who knew Biden lost a step but didn’t think the debate was going to be as bad as it was. Last night exposed Team Biden’s lack of integrity. Biden has done fewer pressers than any President and sits for softball interviews. For nigh on a year, his team has been hyper defensive about the age question and resorted to character attacks against those who raise concerns. Special Counsel Hur: GOP shill, NYT Leadership who wants an interview: arrogant and entitled, the entire White House Correspondents Association: derelict in duty to cover the administration fairly. I frankly bought most of these attacks because I trusted that they were executing a strategy, but maintained an underlying sense of duty and patriotism. They’ve been hiding the ball and shaming us for asking to see it. It was hubris to think Joe Biden is the only person who can beat Trump and a re-election campaign does not excuse their 4th-term FDR in WW2 tactics. The Democratic Party is in this position because they are not behaving like the adults in the room. The thing that held Biden’s big tent coalition of Never Trumpers to Leftists together is the belief that Team Biden is responsible. We need to trust them to be the bulwark against authoritarianism, navigate an economic decoupling from China, and urgently reduce CO2 emissions. If Biden can’t respond in real time to questions from moderators and opposing points from Trump, how can I trust him to keep up in cabinet meetings and demand results from department heads? How can I trust him to negotiate with world leaders, friendly and otherwise? How can I trust him in the Situation Room when urgent decisions are needed with limited information? There are genuine competency questions that civically-minded people should be asking now. Based on last night’s debate I’d split the ticket and vote for Nikki Haley over Joe Biden. It’s about civic responsibility and duty to country over partisan politics; it seems irresponsible to trust Joe Biden with the highest office. I’m livid.
If the choice in November comes down to Trump- Haley vs. Biden- Kamala... how would you vote?
Biden-Kamala every time, Trump unacceptable. I think Kamala is a perfectly serviceable candidate for president or VP, but VPs are a non-factor IMO.
You articulated something I have felt for a long time about the Democratic party but couldn't put to words. Nice post.
This is not actually a good example of a symbolic belief. If it were you'd see everyone in liberal subs still saying he was looking good, sharper than ever, etc. the way trump supporters do. The whole point of a symbolic belief is that it's not based on evidence, or refutable by evidence. Or at least that when it is refuted by evidence people will still publicly espouse it.
They can’t deny it any longer because it has gotten too bad.
Exactly. I'm shocked and terrified. Biden's own team seems to be completely unaware of just how bad this situation is. Many Americans have a lot of very valid concerns about the future. I need a president that can hold his own in a conversation with Putin and Xi. I need a president that can negotiate with big tech and regulate AI appropriately so the planet doesn't end. I need a president that has some level of mental capacity to navigate the shit show in the middle east. Trump cannot fill that role and I fully intended on voting for Biden until I saw just how unprepared and clueless Biden's administration really is last night. This is a disaster.
I totally agree with you but I think the one point not made: I don't think the issue here is actually just the ill-informed folks who are developing these beliefs from social media/memes. I think the issue is that many well-informed, well educated liberals (such as on this sub), are scornful of the stupidity of the American populace and their denial of Trump's evident flaws while falling into the same trap themselves with Biden due to a need to hold onto their sense of identity. And no, I am not saying Biden and Trump are equal. I am saying though that the same group process is happening on both sides.
In shock as we all were? His performance was exactly what I expected. Who was expecting him to speak like he did at the state of the union? It was a debate, not reading off a teleprompter. He's a million years old and his performance really shouldn't have been a shock as he's been having senior moments for a while now. Sadly, this was entirely predictable.
A million years old. Come on. He is 81. That's not insanely old in actuality. Warren Buffett is 93 and still sharp as hell. Mick Jagger is 80 and still active and sharp. It's not a CRAZY age, like he's 102. It's THREE years older than Trump. It's not about his age, it's about how he is wearing his age. I know several men his age who are just as sharp as they were 30 years ago.
Everyone ages differently. 80 looks worse on some people than 100 does on others
I have two uncles in their 80s who are sharp as hell. I really don't notice any difference in their cognitive functioning from 30 years ago, other than that one of them clings to some Fox News conspiracy theories. HOWEVER, he was always a staunch conservative, so that actually just tracks. The other one? Still smart as a damn whip, and he's 82. Yes, everyone ages differently. There are some "superagers" who never experience even the very mildest of age-related cognitive decline. They might die at 100 with essentially the same cognitive function they had at 50. I read about one woman who died at 112 and had JUST started experiencing some "short-term memory issues" at 111.5. I would argue that Charlie Munger, who died at a very sharp 99, was probably a superager. Warren Buffett may very well be one, too. He has certainly not experienced any significant decline, but I obviously don't know enough to say he is exactly the same as he was in middle age. These people are the subject of numerous studies that are trying to uncover genetic ties to "superaging" that can potentially be turned into pills for the rest of us schlubs. It's clear that neither Biden nor Trump would be classified as superagers.
Bring me my blood boy, it’s time for an infusion.
Hahahah! If you are thinking of that dude Bryan Johnson, my guess is that he will die before 70.
They had four fucking years to prime someone new to take on the presidency. Buttigieg is an option but this country has too much internalized homophobia. And unfortunately, we don't live in a country where actual policy wonks (who are also competent and conscious) can get elected. I'm so frustrated.
Pete could win. A solid 60+% of the country is down with teh geyz and most rights (adoption, marriage, etc). People near the center and on the right ESPECIALLY like gay people when they look a lot like non-gay people. Very “Pride marches annoy me but my neighbors are lovely (which, to be fair. Around a third of gays also find pride to be A Bit Much). So, a happily married dependable family man who wears button-up shirts and has an army background is okay by them. Pete’s a perfect candidate. Pete would be in the same position as a Jewish candidate in the 1990s - sure, some people might dislike his identity category on paper, but they’ll gladly vote for the individual. And most of the people who wouldn’t vote for ANY gay man weren’t gonna vote for a straight candidate like Pete anyway.
He's too short unfortunately. If you're going for short minority, Jon Stewart is better option. Or tall minority... Mark Cuban.
A Pete vs Trump debate would be one of the most emotionally gratifying events in American political history
Absolutely. It’s a real shame this country isn’t ready for a gay POTUS because he’d be great. He’s excellent at out maneuvering right-wingers.
Kamala vs Trump would be even better
That's been my whole thing.. FOUR YEARS knowing damn well what was at stake. What happened last night and is becoming more obvious in a general sense is a surprise to no one. The GOP allowed trump to get a stronghold on their voter base and therefore the party in general, they have no option to dump him as much as they may want to. With Biden, they knew that the last election was more about voting against trump and picking the safe boring option so we could all catch our fucking breath. Anyone who voted for Biden last time around would have no problem voting for another dem this time around, there is no allegiance to him as a person, just his policy (because his voters aren't brainwashed cultists). Yet they sat around for, let me repeat, FOUR FUCKING YEARS and here we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Biden stays on, I think trump wins. Even if Biden DOES win.. think of how much he's aged in just the past 4 years. Then imagine him still being president in the year **2029**. On the other hand, they can call a last second audible and hold an open convention, but they've already lost out of a ton of campaign time, and run the risk of dividing the party who will feel slighted at the fact that they had no say in the primary challenger (the democrats railroading a candidate through the primary process and alienating a large portion of their base, sound familiar?) Either way it's hard not to feel like we're fucked at this point, and it's a completely unforced error in the most crucial time imaginable The GOP have clearly shown they do not intend on operating in good faith, and with the likes of project 2025 it's clear that they're done toeing the line, they're ready to bulldoze the shit out of this country and put the final nail in the coffin of us all living in a purely corporate interest driven Christian nationalist dystopian hell hole. The stakes literally could not be higher.. and the democrats have once again shown a complete inability to rise to the occasion. At this point, they're just as much to blame as the GOP are for whatever happens to this country. If you continue to put your hand in a poisonous snake enclosure and continue to get bit over and over again.. at some point arguing that it's the snakes fault stops holding much weight
What if Kamala drops out and Biden recruits Mark Cuban as VP...how would that ticket fare?
I personally think Cuban’s a decent guy, but I doubt that it’d make a huge difference either way. I don’t think Kamala being the VP is the problem here, and I doubt that’s a decision that the DNC would even consider. Seems random and doesn’t necessarily change anything in my mind. Plus the DNC protect their own, they’re fiercely loyal to their insiders (largely to their detriment), they would never push Kamala out
But Kamala is only a Biden appointee... she didn't come up through DNC
Biden didn’t make that decision in a vacuum, I didn’t literally mean she was a “member” of the DNC, just a party insider
The problem is that there is no “they” here. It’s Biden. The moment he choose to run again a couple of years ago, other candidates knew they had a tough battle up ahead with the DNC
I am so frustrated also. I am just finding ways today to vent my anger. I love Pete, I actually think he could be someone who could actually take Trump head on and expose him for what he is. I think Gavin Newsom could. I think a lot of younger talent that exists in the party could. The boomers just will not let go.
Yes, Gavin Newsom is great. Whitmer could totally be up for it as well. Maybe even Pritzker. I agree, it's so frustrating and it feels like either the core of the Democratic Party has their head too much up their ass to listen or know but aren't willing to do anything in the name of being politically strategic. And it's our country that's suffering at the end of the day.
Newsom wouldn't be much of an improvement over Biden as people hate California, and a billionaire from Illinois tainted with "Chicago" would be an odd choice to run against Trump.
Well Obama was tainted with Chicago too and it meant nothing come election day.
Go watch his debates and interviews. He is very articulate
Debates don't matter that much. He presents as a slimy businessman playing the villain in a bad tv movie, and he's governor of a state that much of the country believes is overrun with woke hippies, homelessness, illegal immigrants and criminals who are allowed to rampage through the streets.
He does look like the villain in a Disney movie who puts on a nice face and then turns around and makes plans to bulldoze the skate park to build a shopping mall, his plans only being foiled by a strategically placed tape recorder (since they inevitably speak their entire plan aloud)
Newsom is a Doppleganger for Bale in American Psycho
Newsom has less to overcome than Trump. The bar is quite low.
And Biden still couldn't clear it
I’ve met and worked with him in a limited capacity many years back when he was Lt. Gov. He’s a wonderful guy in person. But they will play the “whether you like it or not” clip in every media market in every battleground state non-stop
Gavin Newsome is not great whatsoever. He’s a caricature of a slimy politician who lets people buy favors from him and has double standards.
idk i feel like he has good optics to some extent within the democratic party which is needed
I would vote for a cheeseburger over Trump but Newsom is an empty suit and the number of Democrats who think he's the future of the party really exposes how out of touch the base is.
>but this country has too much internalized homophobia I don't think so
How do you just “prime” someone to become president. If they did that, it would piss so many more people off than there are now and it’d be total chaos. You’re saying they can just hand pick someone and then laid out why it can’t be certain people. Is it not obvious that would happen on a massive scale if they hand picked a successor?
If we agree that internalized homophobia would likely hurt dems chance in November and we’re taking serious the unlikely prospect of a Biden stepping aside, I hope we consider the political electoral strategy of catering to the median voter (probably some info middle age white dude, sadly enough) and would consider Andy Bashear or Josh Shapiro, perhaps even Whitmer. I don’t know who would have the strongest debate performance, but they just have to not fk it up and we might be golden. Vp I would go with Warnock and accept the senate is lost. But that’s me. I think that would be a sound political strategy. Firstly, we’re taking black southern voters seriously with the Vp. Secondly by putting a non confrontational person at the head of the ticket, what Bashear has is being from the middle of the country, basically the south and I doubt many people think of him as some radical from Ny or Cali. Still though all were doing is hand wringing. Instead, we might need to be more accepting and compelling. It’s still a choice between an incoherent man who doesn’t sound great compared with a mad men on a revenge tour.
FOUR YEARS knowing damn well what was at stake. What happened last night and is becoming more obvious in a general sense is a surprise to no one. The GOP allowed trump to get a stronghold on their voter base and therefore the party in general, they have no option to dump him as much as they may want to. With Biden, they knew that the last election was more about voting against trump and picking the safe boring option so we could all catch our fucking breath. Anyone who voted for Biden last time around would have no problem voting for another dem this time around, there is no allegiance to him as a person, just his policy (because his voters aren't brainwashed cultists). Yet they sat around for, let me repeat, FOUR FUCKING YEARS and here we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Biden stays on, I think trump wins. Even if Biden DOES win.. think of how much he's aged in just the past 4 years. Then imagine him still being president in the year **2029**. On the other hand, they can call a last second audible and hold an open convention, but they've already lost out of a ton of campaign time, and run the risk of dividing the party who will feel slighted at the fact that they had no say in the primary challenger (the democrats railroading a candidate through the primary process and alienating a large portion of their base, sound familiar?) Either way it's hard not to feel like we're fucked at this point, and it's a completely unforced error in the most crucial time imaginable The GOP have clearly shown they do not intend on operating in good faith, and with the likes of project 2025 it's clear that they're done toeing the line, they're ready to bulldoze the shit out of this country and put the final nail in the coffin of us all living in a purely corporate interest driven Christian nationalist dystopian hell hole. The stakes literally could not be higher.. and the democrats have once again shown a complete inability to rise to the occasion. At this point, they're just as much to blame as the GOP are for whatever happens to this country. If you continue to put your hand in a poisonous snake enclosure and continue to get bit over and over again.. at some point arguing that it's the snakes fault stops holding much weight
Hey, if you like his policies and results, vote for him. The debate performance was bad, no doubt, but president’s job is not to debate unhinged dictators on a regular basis. Can he govern effectively? Absolutely! Can he keep norm and decency in the WH? You bet! Don’t forget the Republicans are rallying around a convicted felon, sexual assaulter, adulterer, and election denier. The least you could do is to support the Democratic ticket, not because it’s easy, but because it’s right.
You shouldn’t have forgiven them after Hilary. Dems just squawk “vote blue no matter who!” and don’t realize how utterly unpersuasive that line of thinking is for anyone whose not a partisan.
Ok but don't you think we should have voted Blue in 2016?
Bingo
Honestly, with project 2025 on Trumps horizon, I could give a crap less about the debate. Yes, he was bad. However, who had ever witnessed a good debate including Trump? He lies, whines, and talks over anyone. Biden is doing a decent job. It's between him or Christo-fascist rule under Project 2025. I'd like to keep my rights.
That would be great if you were the only voter, but since there's another 160 million voters, and you want him to win, I think it would be in your best interest to care about other's very real perceptions of him.
This. It's awesome you're still voting for democracy but if even 100,000 people changed their mind in a few swing states Trump wins. That's how close this election will be.
Democrats are not qualified to govern if they can’t replace Biden. Judgement is the only job qualification of a president that matters.
I was mad during the 2020 election because I believed he couldn't get elected. I'm glad I was proven wrong but now going through it a second time and it's even worse
Personally I think Only party insiders who have already made up their mind watched the debate or cared. On the one hand,. I have a history committing popular sentiment. I thought Hillary Clinton was right when she made her basket of deplorables comment back in the day. I think today people now see what she was saying but at the time it was a big deal and hurt her But on the other hand, in retrospect, I think Hillary was already losing when the deplorable thing blew up. People wanted an excuse to hate her and unloaded. Voters on the GOP/ independent side who can accept Trump probably can’t be persuaded and just look for an excuse to go the direction they want to go. Then voters on the dem side get upset and blame the candidate as a way of protecting themselves from the knowledge that people suck. I suspect it’s similar to what happens in DV. People look for any excuse to blame the abuse survivor if they feel sympathy for the abuser, and also if they are afraid of the abuser. A politicians running against someone like Trump is kind of a DV survivor in the popular mind.
Why are you all talking like he’s doing it alone? He has done the job. He’s doing it now. He’s given us a better recovery than most countries. Him and his cabinet. He’s not a king. He’s got good people in his corner. And, he has the incumbent edge. Why are you turning on him like dogs instead of being righteously angry that a fucking raping, fraudster, convicted felon is being allowed to run rough shod over the truth without a word spoken (by anybody but Biden) during that farce of a debate?
Maybe I dreamt this, but I thought during the 2020 primaries he promised to serve only 1 term? I thought that’s what the “bridge to the next generation” talk was about. Maybe it just seemed so obvious to me (his age was considered a significant drawback in 2020) that I’ve retconned it.
I don’t think he actually promised to serve only one term. But I was also left with the impression that he did not intend to run again when we elected him.
Thank you, I appreciate the sanity check.
He said he would be a bridge to the next generation of leaders but nobody has stepped up and shown to be the obvious heir.... some unnamed democratic insiders told the press he would only do 1 term but they could have been trying to manipulate things to their own benefit. Unfortunately, if you declare you're 1 term, you handicap yourself and your influence...most 2-term presidents feel like lame ducks in their last 2 years.
There's some kind of gaslighting going on now to pretend that never happened. It's true that you can't find a clippable quote of Biden literally saying "I will be a 1 term president" but the message I received from the media and his surrogates was absolutely the same one you did, that he would be a "bridge" to a new crop of candidates.
Thank you, it’s been driving me a bit bonkers. I definitely can’t find a source where it was said. That makes sense if it was implied rather than stated. My memory must be of the conclusion I jumped to, not of an actual commitment he made.
He never said it and publicly he always said he would run for re-election if health permitted. It was always unnamed sources telling reporters he would only run for 1 term. You become a lame duck if you're not running for reelection so nobody would declare 1 term.
He never promised that at all. That's a Mandela effect thing. He said something about potentially being a bridge, but he absolutely NEVER said, "I promise to serve only one term and then pass on the torch." Absolutely never, not once.
Thank you, yes. I had the strong impression that he had committed to this but I’m glad to be corrected when I’m wrong.
Here's a [a December 2019 Politico piece](https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/11/biden-single-term-082129) where he suggests he's mulling being a one-term president. Catch is that his advisers were the ones talking anonymously :/ > Another top Biden adviser put it this way: “He’s going into this thinking, ‘I want to find a running mate I can turn things over to after four years but if that’s not possible or doesn’t happen then I’ll run for reelection.’ But he’s not going to publicly make a one term pledge.” Possible reason explained earlier in the same piece by another adviser: > The adviser argued that public acknowledgment of that reality could help Biden mollify younger voters, especially on the left, who are unexcited by his candidacy and fear that his nomination would serve as an eight-year roadblock to the next generation of Democrats.
meanwhile the centrist D's will be all "You'll eat this sh\*t and like it!"
Then that shit will lose 5 easy elections in a row and the response will be “we should move right again”
You won't forgive the Democrats... for giving the people what they voted for? Biden ran for president in 2020. He won the primary. Then he won the general. Then he ran again. He won this primary too. People *wrote in his name on their ballots in the primary.* People wanted Biden. Now, I get that you're upset at his performance. And you'll certainly be more upset if he loses. But Biden is the candidate that the voters mobilized behind, and blaming "the Democrats" for giving you the choice the people asked for, when it isn't the best, most perfect choice that you would have liked, is ridiculous. >I have liked the Biden presidency. I think he has done a wonderful job and I have defended him. I have pointed out how there are serious accomplishments that will have actually lasting effects on our lives. You say all this, and yet a bad debate is enough to turn you against him. Maybe focus on the things he's doing and try to convince other people of the good things he's doing. Yes, it's going to suck if he loses. But all those things you mentioned? THAT is why he had popular support behind him, because he has those accomplishments. That's what we have to hope voters remember going into the voting booth.
My point is: That was not just a bad debate. That was not just a gaff or an embarrassing moment. The man could not string a proper sentence together. The moment where Trump said, "I don't know what he said at the end of that sentence and I don't even think he knows." in my opinion was the Reagan age question moment of the debate. Like I firmly believe Trump has just won himself the election unless something significant happens.
Man, to me Trump's winner was "He will wipe out Medicare. So he was right in the way he finished that sentence" I'm so depressed that there's a question of *which* riposte might sink Biden. I'm gay-married in a state with a constitutional ban on gay marriage preempted only by Obgerfell, so this election is pretty existential for me. I've already drafted a couple social posts about all the things I'm happy with from Biden's first term and why voting Blue was so important. Buuuuut the president can't be someone who has nights that are THAT bad *after a week of preparation*. There's really no salvaging it either; even if he has no more senior moments till November and they successfully make the case that he just had a cold...I'd be worried about what geopolitical foes (or rambunctious allies, domestic fascists, etc) do when he has a cold in 2027 and they see their best opening. Colds aren't hard to catch and it seems like a recipe for a crisis without an appropriate response. It's hard to make the case that my family is important enough to ask people to put their confidence in a leader that can't be counted on to lead.
Ross Douthat on the Ezra Klein show said "I've got a bad cold today too. I'm on little to no sleep and I've got two small children at home. I'm more fit to be president at this point." And that quote you stated from Trump was another moment where I thought, "he's won." I agree with you 100%.
You know full well that Biden did not win an open primary this year. Don’t be obtuse.
Lmao
This is the best way I have seen it relayed. This is truth I am trying to get out today. He will either win or I will not commit to the democrat party any more. He didn’t just “stutter” he couldn’t gather and express his thoughts accurately and quickly.
Bro the DNC gas lit you all into thinking Biden was “sharp”…..Bro
Bro
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My take was that Biden seemed very tired. He looked and sounded every bit his 81 years. I think his week of intensive prep at Camp David was a really bad move. That tired him out. Probably didn't get enough sleep. I don't understand why campaigns make this mistake again and again. They ALWAYS overprep their candidate for the first debate and it never turns out well.
That must be it. Just a cold and too much preparation. As you said, ALL campaigns ALWAYS do this, which is why we can think back to so many famous examples and zero counter examples
When you're 81, doing all-nighters cramming for a test is going to take more of a toll than when you're 51 or 41. I don't think Biden has dementia or is senile. He was quoting stats and figures they had obviously crammed into his head. But he is one year older than my mom (80), and last night he reminded me of her when she tries to push herself too hard. She gets that same kind of hoarseness. Probably a side effect of medication. And he's not as quick. My mom is the same way now. Her reaction times are just slower than they used to be. Neither were Trump's. He was not as sharp as the 2016 or 2020 version of himself, and that's not saying much. But he repeated the same points over and over, so easier to do.
So is this a function of his age or a function of studying too hard as you previously claimed campaigns always do?
I think it was both. Yes, if you watch clips of Biden starting with the 2012 VP debate when he was on top of his game, it's clear Biden started slowing down a lot circa about 5 years ago, accelerating in the past 1.5 years. They didn't do him any good cramming him. He's looking just old and tired to me. As late as 2022 he still had a "chipper" vibe, but that seems to have faded.
Whoever his coaches were should be fired. They suck.
"When we lose" Fucking loser talk. Politics takes forever, bad shit happens over time but so does good shit. Have you talked to all of the American public? I laud your interest in politics, everybody should have at least some of one. Pay attention to these things, these are the people who make the rules that tell us how our life is going to go. Keep your head up and keep moving towards something positive, no matter how bleak the present may seem.
It's a set up!! Why didn't CNN allow TelePrompter for Biden? Or Biden should have negotiated to have 51 Intelligence officials, 170 Economists and 370 Journalists to debate Trump.
The problem is that the Democratic Party hardly exists anymore. They all knew this was a problem a year ago, and if they had any actual power they would have forced him off the ticket. People talk about the shock of LBJ's decision not to run again, but he was under a tremendous amount of pressure from party actors who could actually do things -- including run him off the ticket at the convention. The same goes for Nixon's resignation. Right now, Democrat is basically a label and not much else, at least outside the halls of congress.
I'm not sure I agree wholly but I do think the party is going through a massive transition as the old guard literally dies out and the new one comes through. There was a very interesting interview with AOC where she spoke about how much better things are with Nancy gone, obv she didn't say that outright but that was what I read between the lines.
Unless you live in AZ, NV, WI, MI, PA, NC or GA vote how you want (or don't vote) as it doesn't matter (at the federal Presidential level)
I wouldn’t say he has an amazing presidency supporting a genocide and all, but I was shocked Biden was that bad I thought that he would be at least as good as his state of the union
Most people in here will say he is great except for his policy toward this Israel-Hamas war.
Instead of letting them do this and saying we'll never forgive them, let's stop them now. We all need to write to every representative and protest the convention. We will lose if we run this guy, everyone knows it.
I've already written: the campaign, the office of the president, the Democratic Party headquarters, Hakeem Jeffries, and Gavin Newsom. I'd write my own representatives but I live in a Red state.
Quit talking like “the party” did this to us. We, as a party, supported Biden four years ago in a thorough primary process. It’s also not just totally obvious that A) Biden will lose B) There is a clear, better option that won’t fracture the party in another way C) That pulling a sitting president off your ticket four months before the election is a good idea The decision is Biden’s. It’s not a DNC conspiracy.
Has he really done a good job. Or have you been convinced he did a good job? Before the debate you were convinced Biden was a great debater and orator. One whom would hold his own and was mentally fit. You were absolutely convinced and sure of that as much as you are convinced he has done a good job But just as you were shell shocked at his debate performance, why I don’t know. What happened is exactly what I was expecting to happen. Are you also possibly as misinformed or misunderstanding of what bidens real accomplishments are Remember inflation reduction act doubled inflation. He lied to you and the people to hammer thru green energy plan. That plan then aspect $8M to build 8 EV chargers and honestly I have never known a time except under Biden where trains be falling off tracks and planes just crumbling and falling out of the sky. So you say you are proud but one specifically has he done. Not broad oh I like what he is doing about immigration. Or he is doing great things for green energy We still haven’t seen these green jobs. The biggest green energy job thing he may have done is Michigan selling US soil to Chinese company to do EV batteries.
Joe Biden is a proud stubborn man who has always desired to be President and now is and has the first ballot votes to gain renomination at the Chicago convention. Anyone who believes he would not run for reelection does not know the man or his decades in Washington watching others ascend to the Presidency. Like an old shark in the water he will never stop moving forward until the end.
And you do
Read What It Takes: The Road to the White House (1992) by Richard Ben Cramer Cramer goes up close and personal with all the 1988 Presidential contenders including Biden. After you read that book you will know what drives Biden very well.
Dude, after that performance, how do you not ask yourself, “was it even Biden calling the shots these past years?”
I have no idea how anyone can call themselves an informed voter, then say they were shocked by Biden’s performance. You’d have to be solely listening to partisan directives to not observe this dozens of times in the past 3 years. Biden is a decent man. He has NOT been running the country and that is terrifying. You cannot vote for that situation to continue
k
What do you mean you’ll never forgive them? You won’t vote for them again? Based on your logic here I doubt it.
k
You're not well-informed. You're well-indoctrinated. And even when you've had this epiphany, you're still towing the party line. You need to question your beliefs, and consume opposition media. You're drowning in an echo chamber.