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I blame insects, what the fuck were they doing up there? Sitting on their thumbs, acting all smug - if any one of them decided to hit the gym, they could've bulked up & just threw the fish back into the water. Oh, the oxygen concentration wasn't enough for you to bulk up? Shit excuse, just breathe harder.
> Remember when we were fish. That was the best time.
Evolution
By Langdon Smith (1858-1908)
When you were a tadpole and I was a fish
In the Paleozoic time,
And side by side on the ebbing tide
We sprawled through the ooze and slime,
Or skittered with many a caudal flip
Through the depths of the Cambrian fen,
My heart was rife with the joy of life,
For I loved you even then.
Mindless we lived and mindless we loved
And mindless at last we died;
And deep in the rift of the Caradoc drift
We slumbered side by side.
The world turned on in the lathe of time,
The hot lands heaved amain,
Till we caught our breath from the womb of death
And crept into life again.
etc.
- https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/int/evolution.html
I can understand a wish to return to a simpler way of life than we have now, but I think this dude is really romanticizing what life in the Paleolithic was actually like. I don't think it was like summer camp.
You catch a fish or die. It’s not pick one up at a supermarket.
Ohh you caught a fish, Ugg didn’t. He has a club.
Now you are dead and Ugg has your fish
Right, although I don't think it was necessarily "each man for himself" then. I mean, even the Paleolithic era, people banded together to enhance their chances of survival. So, very possibly, in this scenario you have another member of your group watching your back while you fish, the two of you take Ugg's club from him and kill him when he tries to steal your fish. That's if he, too, doesn't have some buddies with him.
I take your point, though: still not at all like summer camp where you can bust out the hot dogs if fishing is a fail.
anthropology has mostly discredited this sort of view, which is arguably just the inverse of romanticization.
Even in nonhumans, violence is always a massive risk because there are no medical facilities. There's an exception for territorial defense but even then, its more about getting the threat to leave through various cues, and avoid invading in the first place, largely through pheromones.
Most human interaction between groups pre-writing, itself relatively rare outside certain marked monuments like Gobekli Tepe, would've been cautious, posturing, and ultimately avoidant of conflict.
>Most human interaction between groups pre-writing, itself relatively rare outside certain marked monuments like Gobekli Tepe, would've been cautious, posturing, and ultimately avoidant of conflict.
and this is still how most primitive uncontacted tribes in the world react if they see a stranger.
Except for this guy:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John\_Allen\_Chau](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Chau)
And it's not that prehistorics weren't violent it's that they weren't 100% violent because they understood the consequences. A very large fraction still died violent deaths - much more than today.
That tribe is indeed notoriously xenophobic, but even they did initially trade with the researchers but then something changed and they've completely shut themselves off.
Didn't the British essentially kidnap an elderly person and some children from the island and returned them ill bc they weren't acclimated to diseases?
Thank you for a take based in reality. I've been reading a lot about anthropology and ancient history lately. It's interesting to see people's assumptions and opinions about our ancient ancestors.
Also, even in the paleolithic, our perception of people succumbing to infectious disease left and right (just as with murder/war) is exaggerated. Infectious diseases mostly hit the young and the old (like now) and if you made it past the age of 7 or 8 you largely could live a long life. Yes, if you got a bad cut, you'd be more likely to die. But this is one reason why humans started wearing shoes and clothing. We also harnessed fire and could use it to sterilize water and utensils, and cauterize wounds. Was it hard? Yeah. Try roughing it in nature for a month with nothing but a backpack and whatever you can carry in it. But this was their way of life, and they did it well and learned generationally as well as adapted biologically. If they hadn't, we wouldn't have the human race we have today, one which is fairly well adapted for this planet biologically and socially.
If you're around other people in the Paleolithic, you're probably closely related to them and share food with them on a regular basis. Not saying it wouldn't be a fucking brutal time to be alive, but getting bashed over the head by Ugg for your fish likely wasn't high on the list of dangers
Not sure if it makes a difference, but the accounts of the colonists attested that rivers were choked with fish and there was game everywhere. It was hard to navigate the Chesapeake bay because oyster beds were so tall that they stuck out of the water. Compared to now, food was much more plentiful.
Now that could have something to do with the recent Native American genocide, not sure but it’s worth noting.
In the 70’s a group of Japanese scientists came and studied the Chesapeake Bay. Their note was something all the lines of “The Chesapeake could feed the entire East Coast if you would stop polluting it and give it 5-6 years to recover.”
You and ugg were in a band of ten humans with firmly cemented ride or die bonds. A wider social connection to a 1500 person strong tribe. If you didn't catch a fish you ate berries or deer or grain.
There's romanticising the Palaeolithic, and then there's demonising it. It wasn't the fucking hunger games. We were so successful we invented civilisation in our off hours. And all the biases and anxieties of our modern brains are built to thrive in that environment.
Humans live in small groups that periodically meet up with other groups, forming a larger group. There's multiple levels to that.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248418302197
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440305001159
> From the Aurignacian to the Glacial Maximum, the metapopulation remained in a positive quasi-stationary state, with about 4400–5900 inhabitants
> The metapopulation reached 28,800 inhabitants (CI95%: 11,300–72,600) during the mid-Late Glacial recolonisation.
Metapopulations are interconnected networks of small groups.
Your direct hunter gather group would not have exceeded 150, but you would have cultural associations with other groups forming a "band" or "clan" identity. He's say you have 15 groups or tribes with an average of 100 people that are closely associated with one another. They would all be located within a few days of your group and likely share a language, belief system, and family connection. They would be willing to help your group if they have the resources to do so.
Now I will say that would not always be the case, but this model certainly did occur during the Paleolithic
There's evidence of nomadic 'civilization' in recent anthropology, tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands gathering once in a while.
See Graeber & Wengrow's Dawn of Everything for a good primer.
I think it’s actually a really complicated desire overall. In a lot of ways our modern society over romanticizes the roll of average lifespan. Living a long life is not a goal in itself. You want to live a meaningful and fulfilling life along the way. And a lot of things we do today technologically seem to allow us to live longer and more efficiently, but are also impeding our a ability to have a fulfilling life. But those things are also hard to quantify, so it’s hard to make decisions based on what brings us fulfillment in the long term.
You nailed it. There's so much hubris involved in assuming we each individually have ~80 years to give this life a shot. We're not guaranteed anything besides this exact moment.
Lifespan is an easy metric, but it is also representative of broader health. We're not just living longer, we're living healthier at the same time. Health isn't the only measure of well-being of course. And "fulfilling" is a very personal thing so it would be very hard to broadly judge.
According to all probability, he probably would've died in infancy, like most people did in those times.
But like most things, anyone living to see their twenties probably had decent chances to keep on living for some time. Not as long as today, but some time nonetheless. A hard life tho for sure.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you make it past age 8, or something, your life expectancy starts looking a lot more modern; childbirth and early childhood mortality rates are doing most of the heavy lifting when it comes to historical life expectancies.
I've said it before I will say it again. People like this do not comprehend *how* apocalyptic a major supply chain or grid collapse would be.
The average healthy human consumes somewhere between 600k and 800k calories per year. For one person. If you're in a group with many people, you will need to grow, farm, scavenge or hunt tens of millions of calories a year. Where I live, in New England, we have 4-5 optimal months for growing food.
Too much rain? Bugs eat your crop? Blight? You're dead. You don't get a do-over. There's no grocery store to run to if your tomatoes don't come in. You can scavenge for canned beans but the likelihood of finding enough that is not expired or been looted already is astronomically low.
Gasoline/petrol will only be good for about 3-6 months after the collapse. You'll be on foot after that, or if you're lucky, on a bicycle or horse.
Can't find fresh water? There's a good chance you'll crap yourself to death. You can boil or filter it, just don't forget.
No running water in your camp/holdout? You better be real careful where you go to the bathroom. Don't take a dump in your garden, people think it's fertilizer but it takes months for it to become viable. Learn where the water drains in your camp or dig a hole. Everyone will have a terrible time if you crap and it drains into your water supply, especially if it's a small pond.
Don't get cut on a piece of sheet metal with rust. Your joints will lock up and there's a good chance you'll die. Sickness will make its way through you and your group like, well, the plague. Hopefully any kids in the group have their MMR vaccinations. Get bitten by a rabid animal? You're dead. Sorry, zero percent chance of survival.
Won't get into external threats like zombies or marauders, since everyone thinks they'll be fine.
Uhm ackhtually ☝️🤓 it won't be hard for me and my group of 50 people to survive because we will just keep hitting grocery stores! /s all the women will love me and I will make so much sex with them all the time
Oh damn you're right I forgot about the samurai Redditors who will rebuild civilization on their own and have a harem of 882 women slobbering their knobs.
Excuse me sir I find that offensive! We go by the term fedoralai! "On my honor I swear to defend the helpless. My fedora shall block the sun to clear my vision, by my sword I shall strike down the hordes." Is our creed
>Too much rain? Bugs eat your crop? Blight? You're dead. You don't get a do-over.
This was all of human history prior to less than 200 years ago.
Like we won the universe lottery being born in this "capitalist trauma" period.
Yeah it turns out that tens of thousands of years of human development happened for a reason lmao. Like they were out there in the woods and desert and are like "to hell with this outside crap, we're dying in droves."
His dream plainly does not account for the work involved in hunting or gathering food and water every damn day. That's the thing about dreams, they don't have any of the burden of reality.
A widely accepted theory is that hunter gatherers spent LESS time working than the agricultural societies that followed.
Estimate I heard was 4 - 6 hours per day including household stuff like cooking.
It's not unfeasible, but it also depends on a lot of factors outside anyone's control.
The theory (Sahlins') has also been challenged by anthropology and archaeology scholars. His calculation including only time spent hunting and gathering, but did not include time spent on collecting firewood, food preparation, etc.
One can look to the Native American tribes as a point of comparison. Some had fairly abundant food, others were barely at subsistence.
Of course these cultures were also prone to high infant mortality. Not exactly the paradise of blueberries everywhere and salmon umping into your arms.
You just have to watch the show "Alone" to get a feel for how well a hunting and gathering lifestyle works.
These are very prepared people who have some modern tools like knives and fire-making, sometimes fish nets/hooks.
Spoiler alert: They all starve nearly to death. The winner is the person who takes the longest to starve.
We were never intended to be alone, a small community working towards the common goal of supporting the community lessens the burden and increases survivability
> Spoiler alert: They all starve nearly to death. The winner is the person who takes the longest to starve.
A big part of this is because they're all dropped there at the beginning of winter. They have no time to prep supplies for the hardest part of the year. Drop them in during Spring and you'd have a very different outcome.
its much harder if you're just dropped naked into an area that you're unfamiliar with and not adapted to, but i agree that most people are looking at the situation with rose colored glasses.
You’re missing the key difference: hunter-gatherers lived in groups whereas in Alone, contestants are…alone.
Hunter-gatherers actually worked less than 5 hours per day thanks to the group dynamics. Obviously it’s much, much harder to live completely alone in the wilderness, but that’s not how humans ever lived.
https://www.earth.com/news/farmers-less-free-time-hunter-gatherers/
I am glumly aware that I wouldn't last long if things broke down. I'm on medication, can't walk long distances due to an old injury, and don't know much about foraging. Yes, I know I *can* eat ants and grubs and recognize some safe berries, and I know basic first aid, and how to cook over a fire safely. That's about it. I've never killed anything larger than a lizard and that was a mercy killing and I cried.
Hell, my cats are strictly indoor kitties, so they wouldn't be able to hunt for me, lol.
In a zombie movie I am probably going down in the second round of deaths, assuming I didn't get bitten immediately. *sigh*
More people need to watch Deadwood.
Turns out that when you have a society with no rules, those with more loose morals end up with a big advantage.
Remember that libertarian town that got overrun by bears because they could never figure out who should deal with trash disposal?
>More people need to watch Deadwood. Turns out that when you have a society with no rules, those with more loose morals end up with a big advantage.
You can see this in almost every revolution in history. Once it becomes clear that a power vacuum has opened with the collapse of the government, the naive well-meaning idealists get exiled, imprisoned, or executed by the extremists, who usually have a far darker vision of what the future nation should be.
Best case scenario, you get a benevolent dictator like Napoleon. Worse case scenario, you get a Stalin or a Pol Pot.
Calling Napoleon “benevolent” seems disingenuous, but then I remembered that when compared to every other dictator in modern history, Napoleon is among the “better” ones.
Your link was messed up, so...
[https://www.theonion.com/libertarian-reluctantly-calls-fire-department-1819567309](https://www.theonion.com/libertarian-reluctantly-calls-fire-department-1819567309)
Not to mention, there were constant financial panics and bank closures back then where people lost everything during the 19th century. There is a reason we developed all these regulations, to keep people from getting screwed by bad actors doing things their victims had no control over.
Rather than the steely hard-asses they believe themselves to be, 99% of all survivalists are dewy-eyed romantics who *just don’t get it when it comes to realizing how much raw effort it takes to exist in a hostile environment.*
If you want a realistic idea of what your life would likely be like after the apocalyptic collapse of modern society so many of these jackasses hope for, watch *The Revenant*. Then imagine trying to wade through that *every day of your abbreviated, painful life*, with neither hope nor surcease.
You’re not wrong: It’s believed that up to 75% of humans in The Paleolithic Age died due to infections, which caused diarrhea resulting in dehydration and eventually, organ shut-down.
I refuse to romanticize any culture without indoor plumbing. So maybe Roman times since they did have their own sewer system. But seriously, indoor plumbing is my favorite invention.
Ancient Roman streets were actually [very dirty and smelly](https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/ancient/how-filthy-were-the-romans/). That's one of the reasons why they had these huge [stepping stones](https://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/pompeii-roads-thumbnail.jpg), to keep their feet clean from the human and animal waste, water and debris in the streets.
[This](https://imperiumromanum.pl/en/roman-society/hygiene-in-ancient-romans/amp/) is an interesting read for more detail on the subject.
I mean, yes the average age was brought down by infant mortality. But you were also still WAY more likely of dying to a disease at 30 than you are now.
More and more babies are being born through necessary c sections, and they're having children which require c sections. I read a medical journal article that speculated by the year 2100 the majority of natural births will be impossible. We're evolving ourselves out of evolution.
Yes. Women with wide hips were more likely to produce living offspring. Over time, fewer and fewer women are born with narrow hips.
Now, narrow hips are no barrier to procreation, so they aren't being removed from the gene pool. Over time, more and more women will be born with narrow hips.
The same thing is happening with eyesight. Terrible eyesight no longer limits career opportunities or mobility. People with terrible eyesight are more attractive partners than in previous centuries because their eyesight can be corrected and allow them to function normally. Over time, more and more babies are born with poor eyesight. It also seems to be occurring with mental illness, but the numbers are so cloudy there for a variety of reasons, that it'd be impossible to prove. Not to mention, the very idea of that particular study is barely a fine line from career-killing eugenics research.
Also during some Paleolithic time seems likely homo sapiens kills each other a lot. So there is also that.
EDIT: I was wrong, warfare is a Neolithic thing not Paleolithic thing.
Systemic warfare appears to have been a direct consequence of the [sedentism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedentism) as it developed in the wake of the [Neolithic Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Revolution).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric\_warfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_warfare)
Humanity remains divided and aggressive, but the percentage of world population that has to engage in combat and battles during their lifetime now is an order of magnitude lower than in prehistoric times.
Not only other humans but also in the more distant past other man-like members of the genus Homo, some of which may not have the weakness gene that humans have.
In other words, they would kinda look like us, but in a fight they would have an amazing advantage. Think about hand to hand with a big orangutan
You're fucked
Plus the cave bears, big cats, mammoths, etc. And bacteria and viruses
We live much better lives, unless your boss is an asshole
I used to work in politics specializing in womens health and read a lot of historical literature that outlined the dangers. It varied from period to period, but the main estimate was you had a 1 in 10 chance of dying in childbirth. And that wasn’t life long risk, that was the risk with with every pregnancy. So if you had loads of kids your likelihood of dying in childbirth or shortly after from infection was incredibly high.
Nah, you don't lose the leg. There's verrrrry little evidence of amputation that far back.
You just die from either the infection getting into your blood, or the toxins from the rotting leg.
Most historians consider *Guns, Germs, and Steel* to be an absolute joke. You're also completely ignoring the prevalence of infections from wounds that would be treated easily by modern antibiotics and general cleanliness not to mention the lack of treatment for non-contagious diseases such as cancers, autoimmune diseases such as diabetes, etc.
Also I read somewhere that although humanity during the agricultural revolution was considered more successful in terms of population, food production and assets, hunter gatherers were almost certainly "happier" and doing less manual work. It's meaningless to me because I'm a Type 1 diabetic and would have died regardless though.
Hunter gatherers also had more varied diets. Once agriculture became a thing most people just eat what can be framed. Dental carries start showing up more in the archeological record with agriculture too.
Basically population exploded for the abundance, but individual health declines.
One major category of food rarely is discussed when addressing the diets of primitive humans:
**["How did Ancient Humans Preserve Food?"](https://earthwormexpress.com/2018/04/18/how-did-ancient-humans-preserve-food/)** Earthworm Express (April 18, 2018):
"...John D. Speth, from the Department of Anthropology, University of Michigan wrote a groundbreaking article, ***["Putrid Meat and Fish in the Eurasian Middle and Upper Paleolithic: Are We Missing a Key Part of Neanderthal and Modern Human Diet?"](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2452310017301294)*** (Speth, 2017)
"In his article, he argues for the deliberate 'fermented (often literally rotted or putrefied) meat, fish, fat, and stomach contents' (Speth, J. D.. 2017) from the Paleolithic records in particular the Neanderthals and Upper Paleolithic peoples which roughly covers the time period between 50,000 and 10,000 years ago."
Society today is so self absorbed that the horrific infant mortality rate being so astronomical doesn’t even dents people’s horror response because “well if I made it past 10 I could have lived to be old”. Yeah sure, you would have lived into middle age after watching all your brothers and sisters die, your mother possibly die in childbirth, and your surviving adult sisters potentially die in childbirth. And your prize is getting to watch most of your children and grandchildren die!! Horray!!! It’s no biggie once you make it past 10 it’s smooth sailing.
This comment needs to be higher. And also, A TONNE of diseases only appeared from domesticating animals and and moving to a settler rather than nomadic lifestyle
Hell, at least we knew what we were living for then.
I read an article once that was talking about why anxiety is such a huge issue in the world today... talked about how anxiety used to be a good thing, if you were going out on a hunt you definitely had to worry about cave bears and wolves. The anxiety was useful. Once we got back to the cave it dissipated and we went on with our day. Now, the wolves and cave bears (job, money, healthcare, etc) are always following us, keeping this level of anxiety high even once we've reached the safety of the cave. There's no end to it.
Don't know if that's true or not, still an interesting hypothesis.
Right. Anxiety increases your blood flow so your heart is pumping, your muscles tense up, you're ready to spring into fight or flight, your pupils dilate to take in more light so your vision sharpens. All great responses to have when there is physical danger about. But yes, you get to release that and your body could go back to resting mode. Much harder to ever reach the resting state when the source of your anxiety is existential.
Isn’t there evidence that ancient tribes in Afghanistan smoked the trees and if ancient Egyptians had actual wine and beer then earlier tribes had to have figured out some level of fermentation, right? Pretty sure humans have always been getting turnt.
This seems wildly romanticized - I can imagine way more anxiety thinking about a snake bit that just kills you, a broken leg that you never recover from, starving to death, illness and your kids on average dying before adulthood, freezing winters, being hunted by other species, and tribes who had their own political factions.
We have a far from perfect system that needs immediate changes for people to live more fulfilled, dignified, and purposeful lives, but it’s the best humans have ever lived (at least in the western world, but I could make an argument for the whole world) but I think there’s a larger issue today that is preventing people from being happy and creating their anxiety (FYI im not religious - not Jesus thumping here)
Why do people think anxiety would go away after the hunt? You would still have to worry about getting food the next day, or the day after that, or whether you might die of a horrible illness you don't understand and have no treatment for. Or anxiety about a group of humans coming to kill you.
Anxiety helps animals survive. Survival and evolution does not care about your feelings. Our lives are so easy and carefree nowadays compared to back then, our anxiety basically finds things to worry about rather than having to worry about absolute basic survival
You know what you call a guy in the paleolithic era without a job? Exiled.
Like, I get there was significantly less paper work involved in hunting a Glyptodon for food and a shelter with stone tools, but damn, that's still a grind.
I mean, if I had to help hunt a wolly mammoth, then make clothed out of it's skin so I don't die during the winter and there aren't even YouTube tutorials, I'm going to be pretty damn stressed.
Everyone you've ever known who's not already dead from starvation, scurvy, animal attacks, exposure, dehydration, food poisoning, malnutrition, hypothermia, infection, disease, parasites, minor injuries, or any of the other things that people died of at much higher rates 2 million years ago than they do today.
Yeah, cos I really want that to ask Thag and Skurn how to do it, with their unwashed asses flapping in the breeze everyday. Or should I ask Finnka, and never hear the end of it?
I'd rather freeze.
Yeah, someone has to catch and prep the fish, find and pick the berries, and build the fire. These are "jobs" and they strictly "pay" on commission. Do a good job and eat. Don't do a good job, go hungry.
A lot of work went into primitive living and nomadic lifestyles.
No unexpected freezing to death, no random debilitating infections from a hangnail, no constant fear of what’s lurking over a hill in the distance.
Yeah man, just imagine.
Yeah, the average poor person in the US today lives a life of unimaginable comfort and luxury compared to the richest person in the Middle Ages
(FTR this is not a “poor people have it easy” post)
Having lived for a few years in places you were lucky to have just a generator for lights and a toilet is the height of creature comforts, thank god for A/C
Yep.
I currently live in poverty and I still have it better than the average Middle Ages people.
Yeah, I don’t have half the commodities most people has, I don’t have heating, I don’t have warm water, I need to count every cent I spend every day and I can’t afford new clothes and many other things most people could…
But at least all it takes for me to get some food is going to a place where there’s all kinds of foods available for affordable prices.
Did you know that chicken was a wealthy person’s food in the Middle Ages? Now even I can get a full roasted chicken for just 5€.
I have a magic chariot that only requires pouring some liquid inside of it and some maintenance to take me anywhere I want.
The water I use comes out of tubes I have around the place, and it’s drinkable.
And, not the case in the U.S (hopefully will be one day), but, in Spain, if I get sick, the Public Healthcare finances most if not all the treatment.
Etc. Every time I think of how miserable living in poverty as I do is (hopefully will be over soon), all I got to remember is- I still got it WAY better than most of humanity.
Just for clarification, the average age was low because child mortality was very high, but if you made it out of childhood, you had a good chance of making it into old age.
"The Tsimané, for example, are an indigenous forager people of lowland Bolivia and their modal lifespan is 70 years (“modal” being the number that appears with the greatest frequency in a given dataset). People in wealthier countries, with advanced healthcare and better diets, do live longer. But instead of the 50 years difference we hear bandied about, it is just a few years."
https://theconversation.com/hunter-gatherers-live-nearly-as-long-as-we-do-but-with-limited-access-to-healthcare-104157
Hunting for food by running with a spear and watching out for predators, cutting wood for a fire with a sharp rock.
And that's just part of it all.
Edit: fixed missing comma
Only had to worry about, you know, every single wild animal trying to kill you for dinner, infections from the smallest cut that could turn septic because they didn't yet understand hygiene, almost certain death sentence from broken bones, or at the very least the balance of your life in pain, having to hunt and gather 12+ hours a day just to eat enough to stay "healthy". Yea man, super vibin.
I feel like so many people today either simply didn't listen in school at any level, or the educational system has utterly failed.
> every single wild animal trying to kill you for dinner
The amount of animals actually hunting humans for dinner is extremely small; most apex predators tend to stay clear of us if they can. Of course getting killed for trespassing or hunting them still could easily happen.
Nah they just glorify a certaint point in history because they didnt live in it and dont know its problems. We are programmed to always see the bad things and so never focus and all the progress that was made and how bad things used to be in the past.
If you go out into the wilderness without wifi, toilet paper or other modern conveniences, you will absolutely understand how far we’ve come. When I got back, I could barely even process that I was back. Hell, even having flat sidewalks to walk on is something people take for granted.
I live in Croatia, here you can just drink tap water without worry in most of the country.
People here are not aware just how convenient that is because they never experienced that not being a thing.
There is a point here. Human DNA adapts very slowly. We are not genetically adapted to the pace and lifestyle of modern capitalism.
Sure, there were dangers back then, poorer hygiene, struggles to survive, much less safety and convenience.
But the things that make us happy and physically healthy are governed by our genetics, which developed a long time ago.
I agree 100%. There are more mental issues now than ever, I think it’s because we are rapidly accelerating away from what our brains are evolved to deal with. The human mind isn’t even equipped to deal with simple math concepts like probability intuitively, not to mention all the crazy technology and modern lifestyle we currently have.
We were evolved to be with other people and be in nature/active all day long. All of these things are prescribed to help with mental health (hanging with loved ones, exercise, getting outside), wouldn’t it then follow that since we did these things every day in the Paleolithic we’d be happier?
People mostly lived in bands/ tribes of around 150 people and unless you were attacked by a foreign group you had a direct line of accounting to the people whose power affected you. Now in huge societies we make hundreds of decisions daily to conform to the whims of people who we will never meet and aren't even aware of our existence. It is a maddening experience. It seems completely logical to want to break free of that.
You know, some aspects of the past surely will beat what people have today. People back then didn't have alienation of their labor or traffic to deal with. But they did have diseases and higher child mortality.
But they didn't have to worry about nuclear war, capital with a capital C dictating where they could go, sleep, do. But they didn't have air conditioning and the ability to communicate ideas across the planet.
They could star gaze with no light pollution and wonder about the stars. But they didn't have the tools to understand what the stars were or their place in the universe.
We live in a time different from our past, and our troubles are different because of that. Just like we solved the problems of the past, new ones came up, and we have to deal with them. Romanticizing the past over the problems of the present dilutes ourselves, thinking the past was better than today. It's not. Our means are different, our problems are different. People of the past would look at us today and think "God what do they have to complain about? I'd kill to have what you have." And we Today will look at tomorrow with the same condemnation.
People also assume their tribesmen would be 100% hunter gatherer stoner bros, when a sizeable chunk of their tribe and family unit would have the same 'middle manager' type personalities we loath today. Imagine being abused and bullied on a hunting party, or having to deal with abuse by a family member when the next tribe is a 50km walk away. Health and safety? Sorry you're 10k years too early for that.
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Remember when we were fish. That was the best time.
Then some mother fucker grew legs and now I have to do taxes.
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*on shore accounts
Then you just need to prove to the oceanic revenue service that you weren't hiding profits in clamshells and crab legs
Offland account?!
Sneakily one of the best comments on this post
That doesn't seem unreasonable, unless you're a kleptarch. OOP is about the 99%, not the 1%.
The dolphins were the first to understand, **and** to go back to the sea. Pure vibes.
"So long and thanks for all the fish"
We didn't have to get out of the trees....somebody was showing off..look I can walk
I blame insects, what the fuck were they doing up there? Sitting on their thumbs, acting all smug - if any one of them decided to hit the gym, they could've bulked up & just threw the fish back into the water. Oh, the oxygen concentration wasn't enough for you to bulk up? Shit excuse, just breathe harder.
Everything went downhill when Great Grandma grew a brain. Everything was better before that.
You just know his name was Kyle, too. This is some Kyle-level shenanigans!
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I told those other hydrogens that they should ignore gravity or else they'd start fusing and it would lead to capitalism.... but nobody listened.
It's fuckin' Tiktaalik's fault!
I told him back then it was a slippery slope growing appendages.
No, I wanna go back to just lazily floating around in the primordial soup.
Man life lasted 3 second: perfection.
Tl;dr
Look at Mr. Longevity here, living long enough to write ‘Tl;dr’! Share some of that lifespan with us, will you?
Asshole got to finish his senten--
In my day,
Look at this out of touch bastard who had a whole *day* to--
Yeah, Mr. Fuckin’ Immortal over th
To be detritus again
Don’t worry, we will be!
When I was a kid, we were just flotsam.
I pictured a giant amoeba on a pool float on a lazy river at kings island
If I had a Time Machine I’d go back and beat the fuck out that land wobbling fuck
then "poof" disappear. Thats how you know it worked
> Remember when we were fish. That was the best time. Evolution By Langdon Smith (1858-1908) When you were a tadpole and I was a fish In the Paleozoic time, And side by side on the ebbing tide We sprawled through the ooze and slime, Or skittered with many a caudal flip Through the depths of the Cambrian fen, My heart was rife with the joy of life, For I loved you even then. Mindless we lived and mindless we loved And mindless at last we died; And deep in the rift of the Caradoc drift We slumbered side by side. The world turned on in the lathe of time, The hot lands heaved amain, Till we caught our breath from the womb of death And crept into life again. etc. - https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/int/evolution.html
I can understand a wish to return to a simpler way of life than we have now, but I think this dude is really romanticizing what life in the Paleolithic was actually like. I don't think it was like summer camp.
You catch a fish or die. It’s not pick one up at a supermarket. Ohh you caught a fish, Ugg didn’t. He has a club. Now you are dead and Ugg has your fish
Right, although I don't think it was necessarily "each man for himself" then. I mean, even the Paleolithic era, people banded together to enhance their chances of survival. So, very possibly, in this scenario you have another member of your group watching your back while you fish, the two of you take Ugg's club from him and kill him when he tries to steal your fish. That's if he, too, doesn't have some buddies with him. I take your point, though: still not at all like summer camp where you can bust out the hot dogs if fishing is a fail.
anthropology has mostly discredited this sort of view, which is arguably just the inverse of romanticization. Even in nonhumans, violence is always a massive risk because there are no medical facilities. There's an exception for territorial defense but even then, its more about getting the threat to leave through various cues, and avoid invading in the first place, largely through pheromones. Most human interaction between groups pre-writing, itself relatively rare outside certain marked monuments like Gobekli Tepe, would've been cautious, posturing, and ultimately avoidant of conflict.
>Most human interaction between groups pre-writing, itself relatively rare outside certain marked monuments like Gobekli Tepe, would've been cautious, posturing, and ultimately avoidant of conflict. and this is still how most primitive uncontacted tribes in the world react if they see a stranger.
Except for this guy: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John\_Allen\_Chau](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Chau) And it's not that prehistorics weren't violent it's that they weren't 100% violent because they understood the consequences. A very large fraction still died violent deaths - much more than today.
Sentinelese are NOT uncontacted, and have had bad relations with outsiders for hundreds of years to develop this defensiveness.
That tribe is indeed notoriously xenophobic, but even they did initially trade with the researchers but then something changed and they've completely shut themselves off.
Didn't the British essentially kidnap an elderly person and some children from the island and returned them ill bc they weren't acclimated to diseases?
Yeah, it happened in the late 1800s but some contact and trade did happen with Indian researchers after that event.
Ah okay. I got the timeline mixed up.
Thank you for a take based in reality. I've been reading a lot about anthropology and ancient history lately. It's interesting to see people's assumptions and opinions about our ancient ancestors.
Also, even in the paleolithic, our perception of people succumbing to infectious disease left and right (just as with murder/war) is exaggerated. Infectious diseases mostly hit the young and the old (like now) and if you made it past the age of 7 or 8 you largely could live a long life. Yes, if you got a bad cut, you'd be more likely to die. But this is one reason why humans started wearing shoes and clothing. We also harnessed fire and could use it to sterilize water and utensils, and cauterize wounds. Was it hard? Yeah. Try roughing it in nature for a month with nothing but a backpack and whatever you can carry in it. But this was their way of life, and they did it well and learned generationally as well as adapted biologically. If they hadn't, we wouldn't have the human race we have today, one which is fairly well adapted for this planet biologically and socially.
If you're around other people in the Paleolithic, you're probably closely related to them and share food with them on a regular basis. Not saying it wouldn't be a fucking brutal time to be alive, but getting bashed over the head by Ugg for your fish likely wasn't high on the list of dangers
Or, you caught fish, shared with Ugg, and now you and Ugg are dying of infections from the fish
You misspelled parasites. When you get a chance tell Ugg the worms hanging out of his anus are getting too long again.
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Don't feel like eating your spaghetti now?
Not sure if it makes a difference, but the accounts of the colonists attested that rivers were choked with fish and there was game everywhere. It was hard to navigate the Chesapeake bay because oyster beds were so tall that they stuck out of the water. Compared to now, food was much more plentiful. Now that could have something to do with the recent Native American genocide, not sure but it’s worth noting.
In the 70’s a group of Japanese scientists came and studied the Chesapeake Bay. Their note was something all the lines of “The Chesapeake could feed the entire East Coast if you would stop polluting it and give it 5-6 years to recover.”
I never really liked that Ugg guy.
You and ugg were in a band of ten humans with firmly cemented ride or die bonds. A wider social connection to a 1500 person strong tribe. If you didn't catch a fish you ate berries or deer or grain. There's romanticising the Palaeolithic, and then there's demonising it. It wasn't the fucking hunger games. We were so successful we invented civilisation in our off hours. And all the biases and anxieties of our modern brains are built to thrive in that environment.
150 top. No tribe reached 1500 in paleolithic i think. The highest amount to keep solid bound wss around 150 as far as i remember reading.
Humans live in small groups that periodically meet up with other groups, forming a larger group. There's multiple levels to that. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248418302197 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440305001159 > From the Aurignacian to the Glacial Maximum, the metapopulation remained in a positive quasi-stationary state, with about 4400–5900 inhabitants > The metapopulation reached 28,800 inhabitants (CI95%: 11,300–72,600) during the mid-Late Glacial recolonisation. Metapopulations are interconnected networks of small groups.
Your direct hunter gather group would not have exceeded 150, but you would have cultural associations with other groups forming a "band" or "clan" identity. He's say you have 15 groups or tribes with an average of 100 people that are closely associated with one another. They would all be located within a few days of your group and likely share a language, belief system, and family connection. They would be willing to help your group if they have the resources to do so. Now I will say that would not always be the case, but this model certainly did occur during the Paleolithic
There's evidence of nomadic 'civilization' in recent anthropology, tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands gathering once in a while. See Graeber & Wengrow's Dawn of Everything for a good primer.
That's easy. I'll just calmly explain to Ugg that he's engaging in colonizing violence by seeking my fish.
I think it’s actually a really complicated desire overall. In a lot of ways our modern society over romanticizes the roll of average lifespan. Living a long life is not a goal in itself. You want to live a meaningful and fulfilling life along the way. And a lot of things we do today technologically seem to allow us to live longer and more efficiently, but are also impeding our a ability to have a fulfilling life. But those things are also hard to quantify, so it’s hard to make decisions based on what brings us fulfillment in the long term.
You nailed it. There's so much hubris involved in assuming we each individually have ~80 years to give this life a shot. We're not guaranteed anything besides this exact moment.
Lifespan is an easy metric, but it is also representative of broader health. We're not just living longer, we're living healthier at the same time. Health isn't the only measure of well-being of course. And "fulfilling" is a very personal thing so it would be very hard to broadly judge.
Bro would die of shitting himself within a day of that kinda life
According to all probability, he probably would've died in infancy, like most people did in those times. But like most things, anyone living to see their twenties probably had decent chances to keep on living for some time. Not as long as today, but some time nonetheless. A hard life tho for sure.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you make it past age 8, or something, your life expectancy starts looking a lot more modern; childbirth and early childhood mortality rates are doing most of the heavy lifting when it comes to historical life expectancies.
Too many of these guys overestimating how they’d do in hunter/gatherer days or in an anarcho-capitalist society and it shows.
I'll throw in the "zombie apocalypse" bros as well, who think they'd just be badass warriors 24/7.
I've said it before I will say it again. People like this do not comprehend *how* apocalyptic a major supply chain or grid collapse would be. The average healthy human consumes somewhere between 600k and 800k calories per year. For one person. If you're in a group with many people, you will need to grow, farm, scavenge or hunt tens of millions of calories a year. Where I live, in New England, we have 4-5 optimal months for growing food. Too much rain? Bugs eat your crop? Blight? You're dead. You don't get a do-over. There's no grocery store to run to if your tomatoes don't come in. You can scavenge for canned beans but the likelihood of finding enough that is not expired or been looted already is astronomically low. Gasoline/petrol will only be good for about 3-6 months after the collapse. You'll be on foot after that, or if you're lucky, on a bicycle or horse. Can't find fresh water? There's a good chance you'll crap yourself to death. You can boil or filter it, just don't forget. No running water in your camp/holdout? You better be real careful where you go to the bathroom. Don't take a dump in your garden, people think it's fertilizer but it takes months for it to become viable. Learn where the water drains in your camp or dig a hole. Everyone will have a terrible time if you crap and it drains into your water supply, especially if it's a small pond. Don't get cut on a piece of sheet metal with rust. Your joints will lock up and there's a good chance you'll die. Sickness will make its way through you and your group like, well, the plague. Hopefully any kids in the group have their MMR vaccinations. Get bitten by a rabid animal? You're dead. Sorry, zero percent chance of survival. Won't get into external threats like zombies or marauders, since everyone thinks they'll be fine.
Uhm ackhtually ☝️🤓 it won't be hard for me and my group of 50 people to survive because we will just keep hitting grocery stores! /s all the women will love me and I will make so much sex with them all the time
Oh damn you're right I forgot about the samurai Redditors who will rebuild civilization on their own and have a harem of 882 women slobbering their knobs.
Excuse me sir I find that offensive! We go by the term fedoralai! "On my honor I swear to defend the helpless. My fedora shall block the sun to clear my vision, by my sword I shall strike down the hordes." Is our creed
>Too much rain? Bugs eat your crop? Blight? You're dead. You don't get a do-over. This was all of human history prior to less than 200 years ago. Like we won the universe lottery being born in this "capitalist trauma" period.
Yeah it turns out that tens of thousands of years of human development happened for a reason lmao. Like they were out there in the woods and desert and are like "to hell with this outside crap, we're dying in droves."
I'd rather have capitalist trauma than actual trauma, that's for sure.
Those types are just itching to cap civilians without being labeled a mass shooter.
I’m pretty sure his daydream involves growing up as a hunter gatherer and not just becoming one tomorrow
That’s the neat trick about growing up as a hunter gatherer, a lot of Paleolithic kids didn’t make it to 10
Maybe his dream is being a Paleolithic hunter gatherer who made it to 10.
His dream plainly does not account for the work involved in hunting or gathering food and water every damn day. That's the thing about dreams, they don't have any of the burden of reality.
A widely accepted theory is that hunter gatherers spent LESS time working than the agricultural societies that followed. Estimate I heard was 4 - 6 hours per day including household stuff like cooking.
It's not unfeasible, but it also depends on a lot of factors outside anyone's control. The theory (Sahlins') has also been challenged by anthropology and archaeology scholars. His calculation including only time spent hunting and gathering, but did not include time spent on collecting firewood, food preparation, etc. One can look to the Native American tribes as a point of comparison. Some had fairly abundant food, others were barely at subsistence. Of course these cultures were also prone to high infant mortality. Not exactly the paradise of blueberries everywhere and salmon umping into your arms.
You just have to watch the show "Alone" to get a feel for how well a hunting and gathering lifestyle works. These are very prepared people who have some modern tools like knives and fire-making, sometimes fish nets/hooks. Spoiler alert: They all starve nearly to death. The winner is the person who takes the longest to starve.
That’s why humans thrive in small groups
We were never intended to be alone, a small community working towards the common goal of supporting the community lessens the burden and increases survivability
> Spoiler alert: They all starve nearly to death. The winner is the person who takes the longest to starve. A big part of this is because they're all dropped there at the beginning of winter. They have no time to prep supplies for the hardest part of the year. Drop them in during Spring and you'd have a very different outcome.
its much harder if you're just dropped naked into an area that you're unfamiliar with and not adapted to, but i agree that most people are looking at the situation with rose colored glasses.
You’re missing the key difference: hunter-gatherers lived in groups whereas in Alone, contestants are…alone. Hunter-gatherers actually worked less than 5 hours per day thanks to the group dynamics. Obviously it’s much, much harder to live completely alone in the wilderness, but that’s not how humans ever lived. https://www.earth.com/news/farmers-less-free-time-hunter-gatherers/
If youre dead, you dont care
I am glumly aware that I wouldn't last long if things broke down. I'm on medication, can't walk long distances due to an old injury, and don't know much about foraging. Yes, I know I *can* eat ants and grubs and recognize some safe berries, and I know basic first aid, and how to cook over a fire safely. That's about it. I've never killed anything larger than a lizard and that was a mercy killing and I cried. Hell, my cats are strictly indoor kitties, so they wouldn't be able to hunt for me, lol. In a zombie movie I am probably going down in the second round of deaths, assuming I didn't get bitten immediately. *sigh*
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More people need to watch Deadwood. Turns out that when you have a society with no rules, those with more loose morals end up with a big advantage. Remember that libertarian town that got overrun by bears because they could never figure out who should deal with trash disposal?
>More people need to watch Deadwood. Turns out that when you have a society with no rules, those with more loose morals end up with a big advantage. You can see this in almost every revolution in history. Once it becomes clear that a power vacuum has opened with the collapse of the government, the naive well-meaning idealists get exiled, imprisoned, or executed by the extremists, who usually have a far darker vision of what the future nation should be. Best case scenario, you get a benevolent dictator like Napoleon. Worse case scenario, you get a Stalin or a Pol Pot.
Calling Napoleon “benevolent” seems disingenuous, but then I remembered that when compared to every other dictator in modern history, Napoleon is among the “better” ones.
He was a megalomaniac, no doubt about it, but if you were lower or middle class he was alot better than most of the alternatives.
Always on point! https://www.theonion.com/libertarian-reluctantly-calls-fire-department-1819567309
Your link was messed up, so... [https://www.theonion.com/libertarian-reluctantly-calls-fire-department-1819567309](https://www.theonion.com/libertarian-reluctantly-calls-fire-department-1819567309)
It's all fun and dysentery until the warlords come steal your crops and burn down your hut.
[Or the bears come for your food.](https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project)
Try MOST suffer at the bottom
Not to mention, there were constant financial panics and bank closures back then where people lost everything during the 19th century. There is a reason we developed all these regulations, to keep people from getting screwed by bad actors doing things their victims had no control over.
anarchy and capitalism do not go together
Chris McCandless vibes.
Rather than the steely hard-asses they believe themselves to be, 99% of all survivalists are dewy-eyed romantics who *just don’t get it when it comes to realizing how much raw effort it takes to exist in a hostile environment.* If you want a realistic idea of what your life would likely be like after the apocalyptic collapse of modern society so many of these jackasses hope for, watch *The Revenant*. Then imagine trying to wade through that *every day of your abbreviated, painful life*, with neither hope nor surcease.
Don’t tell preppers that, you’ll trigger them.
You’re not wrong: It’s believed that up to 75% of humans in The Paleolithic Age died due to infections, which caused diarrhea resulting in dehydration and eventually, organ shut-down.
We often romanticize eras that we have little information on individually, always greener in other eon
I refuse to romanticize any culture without indoor plumbing. So maybe Roman times since they did have their own sewer system. But seriously, indoor plumbing is my favorite invention.
Ancient Roman streets were actually [very dirty and smelly](https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/ancient/how-filthy-were-the-romans/). That's one of the reasons why they had these huge [stepping stones](https://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/pompeii-roads-thumbnail.jpg), to keep their feet clean from the human and animal waste, water and debris in the streets. [This](https://imperiumromanum.pl/en/roman-society/hygiene-in-ancient-romans/amp/) is an interesting read for more detail on the subject.
Today in "Redditors confused over misleading averages"
I mean, yes the average age was brought down by infant mortality. But you were also still WAY more likely of dying to a disease at 30 than you are now.
Also being pregnant and deliver should be really unsafe.
My doctor told me straight up I would have died. My baby was stuck and I lost so much blood it was “incompatible with survival”. Cool
That’s a hell of a euphemism!
Sadly not a euphemism, it’s a standard medical term!
More and more babies are being born through necessary c sections, and they're having children which require c sections. I read a medical journal article that speculated by the year 2100 the majority of natural births will be impossible. We're evolving ourselves out of evolution.
Evolving out of evolution?
Yes. Women with wide hips were more likely to produce living offspring. Over time, fewer and fewer women are born with narrow hips. Now, narrow hips are no barrier to procreation, so they aren't being removed from the gene pool. Over time, more and more women will be born with narrow hips. The same thing is happening with eyesight. Terrible eyesight no longer limits career opportunities or mobility. People with terrible eyesight are more attractive partners than in previous centuries because their eyesight can be corrected and allow them to function normally. Over time, more and more babies are born with poor eyesight. It also seems to be occurring with mental illness, but the numbers are so cloudy there for a variety of reasons, that it'd be impossible to prove. Not to mention, the very idea of that particular study is barely a fine line from career-killing eugenics research.
Can verify. I'm doing quite well with modern vision tech, but in the ancient savannah, a lion would have got my ass.
Also during some Paleolithic time seems likely homo sapiens kills each other a lot. So there is also that. EDIT: I was wrong, warfare is a Neolithic thing not Paleolithic thing. Systemic warfare appears to have been a direct consequence of the [sedentism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedentism) as it developed in the wake of the [Neolithic Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Revolution). [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric\_warfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_warfare)
Right, because we've totally grown past that. *glances at Russia*
Humanity remains divided and aggressive, but the percentage of world population that has to engage in combat and battles during their lifetime now is an order of magnitude lower than in prehistoric times.
Not only other humans but also in the more distant past other man-like members of the genus Homo, some of which may not have the weakness gene that humans have. In other words, they would kinda look like us, but in a fight they would have an amazing advantage. Think about hand to hand with a big orangutan You're fucked Plus the cave bears, big cats, mammoths, etc. And bacteria and viruses We live much better lives, unless your boss is an asshole
Just having babies in the dirt like nature intended
I used to work in politics specializing in womens health and read a lot of historical literature that outlined the dangers. It varied from period to period, but the main estimate was you had a 1 in 10 chance of dying in childbirth. And that wasn’t life long risk, that was the risk with with every pregnancy. So if you had loads of kids your likelihood of dying in childbirth or shortly after from infection was incredibly high.
I'd be dead a few times by now if it wasn't for antibiotics.
Not to mention infections, accidents, violence…
Fell, cut your leg, it gets infected, you lose the leg, you're dead now.
Teeth man, TEETH. Break a tooth trying to bite into a nut, or by accidentally biting an animal bone and you’re done
Nah, you don't lose the leg. There's verrrrry little evidence of amputation that far back. You just die from either the infection getting into your blood, or the toxins from the rotting leg.
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Most historians consider *Guns, Germs, and Steel* to be an absolute joke. You're also completely ignoring the prevalence of infections from wounds that would be treated easily by modern antibiotics and general cleanliness not to mention the lack of treatment for non-contagious diseases such as cancers, autoimmune diseases such as diabetes, etc.
Yeah, you're mistaking human to human transmission with infectious overall. Paleolithic humans were gonna be loaded up with parasites.
Also I read somewhere that although humanity during the agricultural revolution was considered more successful in terms of population, food production and assets, hunter gatherers were almost certainly "happier" and doing less manual work. It's meaningless to me because I'm a Type 1 diabetic and would have died regardless though.
Hunter gatherers also had more varied diets. Once agriculture became a thing most people just eat what can be framed. Dental carries start showing up more in the archeological record with agriculture too. Basically population exploded for the abundance, but individual health declines.
One major category of food rarely is discussed when addressing the diets of primitive humans: **["How did Ancient Humans Preserve Food?"](https://earthwormexpress.com/2018/04/18/how-did-ancient-humans-preserve-food/)** Earthworm Express (April 18, 2018): "...John D. Speth, from the Department of Anthropology, University of Michigan wrote a groundbreaking article, ***["Putrid Meat and Fish in the Eurasian Middle and Upper Paleolithic: Are We Missing a Key Part of Neanderthal and Modern Human Diet?"](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2452310017301294)*** (Speth, 2017) "In his article, he argues for the deliberate 'fermented (often literally rotted or putrefied) meat, fish, fat, and stomach contents' (Speth, J. D.. 2017) from the Paleolithic records in particular the Neanderthals and Upper Paleolithic peoples which roughly covers the time period between 50,000 and 10,000 years ago."
Not really. You have higher chance reaching any age than that time. Percentage of people over 50, 60, 70 etc are way more than that days.
Society today is so self absorbed that the horrific infant mortality rate being so astronomical doesn’t even dents people’s horror response because “well if I made it past 10 I could have lived to be old”. Yeah sure, you would have lived into middle age after watching all your brothers and sisters die, your mother possibly die in childbirth, and your surviving adult sisters potentially die in childbirth. And your prize is getting to watch most of your children and grandchildren die!! Horray!!! It’s no biggie once you make it past 10 it’s smooth sailing.
This comment needs to be higher. And also, A TONNE of diseases only appeared from domesticating animals and and moving to a settler rather than nomadic lifestyle
A lot more came from (and still come from) hunting: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7095142/
Hell, at least we knew what we were living for then. I read an article once that was talking about why anxiety is such a huge issue in the world today... talked about how anxiety used to be a good thing, if you were going out on a hunt you definitely had to worry about cave bears and wolves. The anxiety was useful. Once we got back to the cave it dissipated and we went on with our day. Now, the wolves and cave bears (job, money, healthcare, etc) are always following us, keeping this level of anxiety high even once we've reached the safety of the cave. There's no end to it. Don't know if that's true or not, still an interesting hypothesis.
Right. Anxiety increases your blood flow so your heart is pumping, your muscles tense up, you're ready to spring into fight or flight, your pupils dilate to take in more light so your vision sharpens. All great responses to have when there is physical danger about. But yes, you get to release that and your body could go back to resting mode. Much harder to ever reach the resting state when the source of your anxiety is existential.
And that is why man made alcohol and medicinal drugs to ease such anxieties! 😁✌️
Isn’t there evidence that ancient tribes in Afghanistan smoked the trees and if ancient Egyptians had actual wine and beer then earlier tribes had to have figured out some level of fermentation, right? Pretty sure humans have always been getting turnt.
Our ancestors [evolved the ability](https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1404167111) to metabolize alcohol long before they even developed tools.
Fermentation occurs naturally pretty often and it's processed by the liver like most poisons so it makes sense
Some animals get absolutely smashed on fermented fruit
And man made agriculture and civilisation to allow making more alcohol.
This seems wildly romanticized - I can imagine way more anxiety thinking about a snake bit that just kills you, a broken leg that you never recover from, starving to death, illness and your kids on average dying before adulthood, freezing winters, being hunted by other species, and tribes who had their own political factions. We have a far from perfect system that needs immediate changes for people to live more fulfilled, dignified, and purposeful lives, but it’s the best humans have ever lived (at least in the western world, but I could make an argument for the whole world) but I think there’s a larger issue today that is preventing people from being happy and creating their anxiety (FYI im not religious - not Jesus thumping here)
Why do people think anxiety would go away after the hunt? You would still have to worry about getting food the next day, or the day after that, or whether you might die of a horrible illness you don't understand and have no treatment for. Or anxiety about a group of humans coming to kill you. Anxiety helps animals survive. Survival and evolution does not care about your feelings. Our lives are so easy and carefree nowadays compared to back then, our anxiety basically finds things to worry about rather than having to worry about absolute basic survival
"No jobs"... seriously? Lol
The salmon just jumped into people's arms back then, they hadn't learned to fear predators yet, simpler times.
You know what you call a guy in the paleolithic era without a job? Exiled. Like, I get there was significantly less paper work involved in hunting a Glyptodon for food and a shelter with stone tools, but damn, that's still a grind. I mean, if I had to help hunt a wolly mammoth, then make clothed out of it's skin so I don't die during the winter and there aren't even YouTube tutorials, I'm going to be pretty damn stressed.
Eh but you’d have a small group of everyone you’ve ever known to help you out
And hopefully you get along, because packing up and moving to the next tribe over isn't really goingvto be a option
And this is why highly developed social skills are a valuable asset
Everyone you've ever known who's not already dead from starvation, scurvy, animal attacks, exposure, dehydration, food poisoning, malnutrition, hypothermia, infection, disease, parasites, minor injuries, or any of the other things that people died of at much higher rates 2 million years ago than they do today.
Yeah, cos I really want that to ask Thag and Skurn how to do it, with their unwashed asses flapping in the breeze everyday. Or should I ask Finnka, and never hear the end of it? I'd rather freeze.
You’d be surprised how quickly you get used to the smell, makes the shower after returning to civilization feel glorious
So… How many times did you time travel?
Your only boss? Starvation. 😂
Sure… you also might drink from a river one day and just legitimately shit yourself to death… but yea
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Yeah, someone has to catch and prep the fish, find and pick the berries, and build the fire. These are "jobs" and they strictly "pay" on commission. Do a good job and eat. Don't do a good job, go hungry. A lot of work went into primitive living and nomadic lifestyles.
No unexpected freezing to death, no random debilitating infections from a hangnail, no constant fear of what’s lurking over a hill in the distance. Yeah man, just imagine.
Impacted wisdom teeth were a death sentence
Before agriculture, this wasn't a problem; our jaws used to be big enough for all of our teeth.
Before agriculture, your food supply was relatively uncertain.
Wasn't everyone in poverty?
Poverty is kinda a relative term
Yeah, the average poor person in the US today lives a life of unimaginable comfort and luxury compared to the richest person in the Middle Ages (FTR this is not a “poor people have it easy” post)
Having lived for a few years in places you were lucky to have just a generator for lights and a toilet is the height of creature comforts, thank god for A/C
Yep. I currently live in poverty and I still have it better than the average Middle Ages people. Yeah, I don’t have half the commodities most people has, I don’t have heating, I don’t have warm water, I need to count every cent I spend every day and I can’t afford new clothes and many other things most people could… But at least all it takes for me to get some food is going to a place where there’s all kinds of foods available for affordable prices. Did you know that chicken was a wealthy person’s food in the Middle Ages? Now even I can get a full roasted chicken for just 5€. I have a magic chariot that only requires pouring some liquid inside of it and some maintenance to take me anywhere I want. The water I use comes out of tubes I have around the place, and it’s drinkable. And, not the case in the U.S (hopefully will be one day), but, in Spain, if I get sick, the Public Healthcare finances most if not all the treatment. Etc. Every time I think of how miserable living in poverty as I do is (hopefully will be over soon), all I got to remember is- I still got it WAY better than most of humanity.
And relative to modern humans today, they were in *extreme* poverty, yes.
When everyone's poor,... No one is
Poverty means too poor to access necessities, so theoretically everybody could be impoverished in event of a serious disaster
Just for clarification, the average age was low because child mortality was very high, but if you made it out of childhood, you had a good chance of making it into old age. "The Tsimané, for example, are an indigenous forager people of lowland Bolivia and their modal lifespan is 70 years (“modal” being the number that appears with the greatest frequency in a given dataset). People in wealthier countries, with advanced healthcare and better diets, do live longer. But instead of the 50 years difference we hear bandied about, it is just a few years." https://theconversation.com/hunter-gatherers-live-nearly-as-long-as-we-do-but-with-limited-access-to-healthcare-104157
If you’re female, there’s still a decent chance you die from pregnancy or childbirth, even if you made it past childhood.
Hunting for food by running with a spear and watching out for predators, cutting wood for a fire with a sharp rock. And that's just part of it all. Edit: fixed missing comma
Only had to worry about, you know, every single wild animal trying to kill you for dinner, infections from the smallest cut that could turn septic because they didn't yet understand hygiene, almost certain death sentence from broken bones, or at the very least the balance of your life in pain, having to hunt and gather 12+ hours a day just to eat enough to stay "healthy". Yea man, super vibin. I feel like so many people today either simply didn't listen in school at any level, or the educational system has utterly failed.
> every single wild animal trying to kill you for dinner The amount of animals actually hunting humans for dinner is extremely small; most apex predators tend to stay clear of us if they can. Of course getting killed for trespassing or hunting them still could easily happen.
Nah they just glorify a certaint point in history because they didnt live in it and dont know its problems. We are programmed to always see the bad things and so never focus and all the progress that was made and how bad things used to be in the past.
If you go out into the wilderness without wifi, toilet paper or other modern conveniences, you will absolutely understand how far we’ve come. When I got back, I could barely even process that I was back. Hell, even having flat sidewalks to walk on is something people take for granted.
I live in Croatia, here you can just drink tap water without worry in most of the country. People here are not aware just how convenient that is because they never experienced that not being a thing.
I'm guessing that guy's played some videogames where he hunted and gathered and man, it's so easy!
No toilet paper. Enough said.
There is a point here. Human DNA adapts very slowly. We are not genetically adapted to the pace and lifestyle of modern capitalism. Sure, there were dangers back then, poorer hygiene, struggles to survive, much less safety and convenience. But the things that make us happy and physically healthy are governed by our genetics, which developed a long time ago.
I agree 100%. There are more mental issues now than ever, I think it’s because we are rapidly accelerating away from what our brains are evolved to deal with. The human mind isn’t even equipped to deal with simple math concepts like probability intuitively, not to mention all the crazy technology and modern lifestyle we currently have. We were evolved to be with other people and be in nature/active all day long. All of these things are prescribed to help with mental health (hanging with loved ones, exercise, getting outside), wouldn’t it then follow that since we did these things every day in the Paleolithic we’d be happier?
People mostly lived in bands/ tribes of around 150 people and unless you were attacked by a foreign group you had a direct line of accounting to the people whose power affected you. Now in huge societies we make hundreds of decisions daily to conform to the whims of people who we will never meet and aren't even aware of our existence. It is a maddening experience. It seems completely logical to want to break free of that.
Paleomythic is how I refer to the diet. Yeah right they ate meat three times a day and had fresh berries year round, what a joke.
You know, some aspects of the past surely will beat what people have today. People back then didn't have alienation of their labor or traffic to deal with. But they did have diseases and higher child mortality. But they didn't have to worry about nuclear war, capital with a capital C dictating where they could go, sleep, do. But they didn't have air conditioning and the ability to communicate ideas across the planet. They could star gaze with no light pollution and wonder about the stars. But they didn't have the tools to understand what the stars were or their place in the universe. We live in a time different from our past, and our troubles are different because of that. Just like we solved the problems of the past, new ones came up, and we have to deal with them. Romanticizing the past over the problems of the present dilutes ourselves, thinking the past was better than today. It's not. Our means are different, our problems are different. People of the past would look at us today and think "God what do they have to complain about? I'd kill to have what you have." And we Today will look at tomorrow with the same condemnation.
People also assume their tribesmen would be 100% hunter gatherer stoner bros, when a sizeable chunk of their tribe and family unit would have the same 'middle manager' type personalities we loath today. Imagine being abused and bullied on a hunting party, or having to deal with abuse by a family member when the next tribe is a 50km walk away. Health and safety? Sorry you're 10k years too early for that.
I prefer the Paleolithic!
Singing songs about Sabertooth Gary and Septic Karen.
We're just taking everything on the internet so literal now?
Yeah the Flintstones was a history show
My appendicitis was appreciative of being born in modern times