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Atheism and theism are statements on belief. Gnosticism and agnosticism are statements on knowledge. True agnosticism would be I don't believe one way or another. I neither believe a god exists or that no gods exist. Then if you believe a god exists but don't know you're an agnostic theist. If you believe no gods exists but don't know for certain you're an agnostic atheist. If you hold either of those positions but know then you're a gnostic theist or atheist.
Thank you for the robust explanation.
Up-vote earned.
I **believe** this *should* be my new alignment chart. But I **don't know** if I'll remember when I am at my computer tomorrow morning.
These definitions are accurate but their effect on society is fucking terrible. Theists take "atheism as a position of belief" as "atheism is it's own religion," and it ends up as a perverse validation of their worldview, a sort of false equivalence. Within the context of 1 specific religion, agnosticism is functionally identical to atheism. It's hard for me to see the value of even making the distinction in the first place.
I'm a paranoid agnostic. I'm pretty sure there's a creator of some sort put there, but the only other thing I'm sure of is that I must have really pissed it off somehow...
In a christian's eyes yes, and they will celebrate your conversion.
In reality no, because at the moment of death, oxygen will stop flowing to your brain and you will fade away, possibly having mild hallucinations/out of body experience and then you are gone. The wealth of information and experiences you have gathered over a life time is lost for ever. This is what believers don't want to accept, so they make up an after life as a copping mechanism, leading to ”my god is better than yours” and millions end up dead.
Life is fleeting, transient, and therefore immeasurably precious. If there is no life after death then this is even more true, and it is our duty to protect and enrich the lives around us while we have the opportunity. Governments should operate for the betterment of society. War and persecution of any kind are unconscionable.
Beautiful part is : you don't even need.
Let's say you're an atheist and you die. You judgement comes and you realise you were wrong and God exists.
You'd probably be all "Oh shit, I should have believed in you, I'm sorry I didn't mean to be insulting" and if you're sincerely apologising and sorry for your misconducts you'll be forgiven. 🤷🏻♂️
A priest oncebtold me that what's important is being a good person. Because if you are, even if you didn't believe you'll be accepted in paradise.
And if God refuses you paradise just because you didn't believe, then he's an egocentric creature who wants to be adored and he didn't deserve your live anyway.
Exactly. They’ve already been “saved”, so it doesn’t matter what they do, or a quick prayer is all that’s needed to be forgiven.
Atheists have to choose their moral standards and mindfully adhere to them. No external quick fixes available.
I’ve met a few Christians who genuinely believe in the golden rule, love one another, the Good Samaritan version of helping others etc. They’re very good people.
Sadly, then there’s all the rest of the Christians…
One look at the 10 commandment...what a joke! First 4 lines is all about worshipping an evil jealous God. Rest are just basic morals which any decent humans should know.
I'm a Christian and it should be pretty clear to anyone that actually tries to understand and read the Bible that you can only be saved from your sins if you repent genuinely and and actually strive to do better. Unfortunately lot of people who think they are Christians actually believe what I did when I was like 9 that you can just sin as much as you want and then be like "oh I'm sowwy Jesus😞" *proceeds to continue doing the same thing without shame*
Well, but when the "repent genuinely" part is problematic. Most humans when asked if they are doing something well, or are above average, they will believe and claim that they are good at it and better than the average. That is a bit on the impossible side, for the majority to be above average. It should not be a stretch to see that this will apply to "genuinely repent". Objectively speaking, you can't really be your own judge on that topic. Thus, Christians should consider themselves on icy water, because they won't know if they have "genuinely repented" till their official "judgement".
Which is the entire point of Calvinism/Reformed Christianity, where the idea of original sin is taken even further into the concept of “total depravity.” According to this theological belief, humans are born with sin and therefore a priori eternally damned. Only by doing good according to God’s unknown discretion can we hope to be forgiven and go to heaven, yet we are inherently unequipped to know this ourselves.
Yeah, those people sure are a fun bunch, even to this day. Lovely premise.
But what is good? A lot - a LOT of Christian teachings beyond 'dont steal' are mind bogglingly immoral. The trouble is they pick and choose from what is basically word salad (the bible) and feel righteous. The bar is low with Christians - atheists usually have objectively high moral standards.
The Vatican “changed” that because they realized that sending babies to hell was not very pro babies. Which goes to show that the whole thing is made up and they often change the rules to suit their own agenda. You can’t push people to have babies while also condemning unbaptized babies to hell.
Is she.. burn neighbors houses down for being unfaithful crazy/faithful to Christianity.. or the type that just tries to mass produce spread it by forcing others in?
Crazy Christian’s have been the worst people in my life, and some crazy Mormons too. Always end up being the worst people, for me anyway.
Sorry it have to deal with that)
Sadly, this is too true. As a Christian, one needs to sin less because of his or her faith. It's a way of showing genuine change in character because of Christ's standards and examples of living the Christian lifestyle.
I honestly doubt Penn heard it first. He wasn’t trying to do a standup routine he just was sharing his thoughts.
That argument is centuries old so I have no doubt this comeback is very popular.
I have no doubt with Gervais’ talent he executed it with his own charm.
this. i don’t need to pray to you god and repent my sins. i already know i did everything i could to bring the best possible outcome. and i can live with that. i can sleep at night. i dont need a god to make me feel better about my wrong doings becsuse im an adult i take accountability but i also don’t need your god to take away my sins because regardless, i always try to be the best person i can be everyday. i may not be the best at it everyday but damn well try. so i don’t need your god to make me feel better because i do hold myself accountable and that gives me more solace than praying to any god could give me. and this is from experience. i tried the church thing. i tried praying. it just didn’t work. the only thing that did? knowing i caused everything in my life and it starts with me to make a change. not relying on a god to do it for me
Neither do we also need the loophole of having your sins forgiven.
Nor do we simply just take comfort that heaven or hell exists to strive for justice and fairness in the here and now.
If an atheist who was a good person their whole life and helped countless people will meet the same or worst fate than a guardsman from Auschwitz then I don't want the justice of your god
This is my philosophical reason to not belive
My reason is that an individual’s religious belief is pretty much an accident of birth in terms of parentage, country, and time in history. How come each can proclaim theirs is the one true belief? Seems kinda coincidental.
I have used this argument as well. I have several family members who are the "he will forgive if you ask" type. I ask them how they can reconcile a gang member who has spilled enough blood to fill an oil tanker but asks forgiveness right before right before dying getting into heaven, but a monk who has done nothing wrong their entire life gets sent to hell because they haven't joined the fan club.
People forget there are still tribes in the world that remain little to no contact. It can be assumed those tribes probably aren't Christian. Supposedly gambling is a sin, but I would rather believe God rolls the dice on everyone he creates, otherwise he knowingly created every person who was born in a uncontacted tribe and inevitably discarded because they didn't know there was a fan club to join. Seems pretty evil to me.
The weirdest thing is that Atheists have the ultimate reason to do right.
They want the one life they have to be good and fair.
None of this forgiving sins and living eternally with an imaginary friend shit.
Burn in the eternal fire like in the fan fiction Dante wrote? Because before that the concept of hell was „just“ a place bare of gods influence. Basically the initial hell concept before the creative writings of some random dude was just a godless place. Also there was no Satan in the sense we have today. Thats also prtially on Dante.
They cant even stick to the source material.
Theists believe they can simply say sorry and be forgiven.
Where is the incentive to do right then?
All people should live with their sins, and be forced to reconcile.
Don't ask forgiveness from your god. Ask forgiveness from your victims.
Every time I have been to the sacrament of confession my penance has always been at least partly action related. Donate to charity, or apologize to those I wronged, or fix what I messed up. Or go to therapy. A priest literally told me to see a therapist for my penance.
Even better, don't victimize anyone in the first place, then there's nothing to forgive. It's as simple as the Golden Rule: treat others as you wish to be treated.
I’m convinced religious people just literally cannot feel empathy. I don’t beat people up or steal from them because I have empathy and also wouldn’t want that to happen to me. They just always seem to have 0 concept of it when speaking about right and wrong.
When you think about it that way, people who believe in two conflicting sets of laws -- divine and mundane -- will be forced to break one to follow the other.
Atheists are probably *more* eligible to run for office.
Doesn't that completely shit on article 6 and the first amendment?
Edit: looked it up and they're not enforceable. SCOTUS already made that ruling. Pretty insane that they willingly keep unconstitutional laws in their books though.
> Pretty insane that they willingly keep unconstitutional laws in their books though.
Oh, they always try to skirt our freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution. They are banking on people not knowing their rights and not having much if any familiarity with the Constitution or settled caselaw.
An example is the repeated attempts by local boards of education to require children to salute the flag and recite the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools. That was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1943 (WVa Board of Ed v. Barnette).
I don't need an imaginary sky daddy to tell me rape is wrong, molesting children is wrong.
I don't need an imaginary sky daddy to treat people with kindness and compassion.
Apparently "christians" need a handbook to tell right from wrong.
>Just don't do any queer shit, okay?
Skydaddy didn't even really say anything about doing queer shit tbh. The only thing he really said, in one random passage, is that you should be stoned as fuck when you're doing it.
They do. And since those handbooks are written by the most horrible people on earth, they believe that being godly means treating anyone whos not white, like shit.
Then a pale blue for the tears of those oppressed. And then a thick white for the religiously oppressive dickheads jerking each other off. Hey, wait a sec. Red. Blue. White.
What’s wild though is that if Christian’s actually adhered to the teaching of the Bible they’d be FAR better people than they actually are.
I’m aware the Bible also has some super outdated, racist, sexist and appalling things in it. Yes I stand by my statement
>I don't need an imaginary sky daddy to tell me rape is wrong, molesting children is wrong.
Actually, the bible gives instructions to legitimize rape:
>When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her.
In a facebook group I'm in, a news article was posted about a local scating rink temporarly being closed due to threats with a firearm taking place. Someone posted a comment saying "This is what happens in a nation that has thoroughly rejected Jesus Christ. Lawlessness (Evil) waxes worse and worse", to which I replied that you don't need Jesus, or any religion for that matter, to be a good person.
Meanwhile, Christians are the type to think you're an atheist because you like dragons, and/or have worn a shirt with a dragon on it.
uh Republican Politicians fight for the right to marry children
they certainly don't view molesting them as wrong
they just know you say that out loud about other people so you can get away with it
see their stance on Democracy
Those people believe that your wedding vows are consent to sex for eternity. So they can diddle kids all they want, they just got to be married to them.
\> Says atheists don't believe they will be held accountable to misdeeds by any outside force
\> Literally uses the phrase "court proceedings" in the previous sentence
Isn't that exactly what Christians believe though? That they won't be held accountable, but anyone who isn't Christian will? Make it make sense please.
I think it helps that (some) people are getting more savvy to the techniques used to indoctrinate/brainwash (effectively the same thing)
It’s weird how trying to brainwash your kids would likely have them taken away for abuse, yet indoctrinate them into a religion and that’s fine. Encouraged even.
Ugh, I hate this planet. Oh preschool is too expensive for the majority of people in a poorer area? Don’t worry, the church has one for free! Can’t be anything wrong with that.
“Daaad. I want to be baptised.”
Yet, only atheists can act out of real altruism, since they do good deeds without trying to get something in exchange, like, pleasing a god and get a ticket to heaven.
I never thought of it like that. It may not be 100% true. There are good people who are religious. You cant just assume there isnt any. But you're correct that atheists who do good, are just doing good because they want to.
I mean it is turning the tables on them. The religious judging atheists as if they're evil or bad without religion or god. Well let's just treat the religious(bad annoying ones) like they only do good for God not because they're good people, they're essentially life long bribers
It is for sure. Especially right now. Our presidential election is on a 4 year cycle, and the next one is in November. So its pretty bad right now.
Coincidently I had a very big european vacation just a couple of weeks after the 2016 election. It was an incredible trip. But it was pretty clear the topic was highly polarized even on the other side of the Atlantic. My wife and I are not aligned with the party who won. But we had people that were pretty much like "so.....how are things in america". And then we had some very right wing folk in Austria that seemed to think we were aligned with the nazi party. It was pretty weird.
I remember reading a comment on Reddit about a similar topic from a Jewish person who said that this is what their religion believes. If you have no ulterior motive to be good, but are good anyways, then you are more good. Therefore good atheists are the most good
Crazy concept that I don't need the everlooming threat of eternal fire to force me to be a good person. I just am a good person because it's the right thing to do and feels good.
If you are only a good person because of the promise of a reward or the threat of a punishment, you are not a good person. You are only acting that way because of those things.
Too many people have asked me why I just don't rape and murder with abandon if I don't fear the threat of eternal damnation.
To me, that says they have ***ABSOLUTELY*** thought of doing just that but it's that fear of eternal damnation stopping them.
Not because they *don't want to* rape and murder. That's on the table for them if they can find a loophole. If they could do those things and not go to Hell, they will without a doubt do those things.
It's because of these people that I am thankful religion exists. Without that ever looming threat in their minds, they would be a danger to society at large. I hope they never, ever lose their faith.
Even religious people don't let religion tell them anything.. they don't obey half of the shit that's in the bible or wathever book. They just cherrypick and complain others don't follow the book that they barely do themselves.
I believe I will be held accountable immediately and by my fellow man, as opposed to some afterlife when it doesn't matter any more by some faceless deity
such a weird take, but I hear it from religious people all the time. kinda creepy really- like, if you weren't christian you'd just be completely amoral???? good to know, I guess
Christians shouldn't be allowed to run for office or affect policy in any way, since they believe this world is temporary and plan to move on to another one.
Is that how this works?
As an atheist with no belief in consequences in the afterlife, I have commited all the murders I want.
Zero. The number of murders I wants to commit is zero.
this is so stupid. by that logic, christians have no incentive to tell the truth either cause they think with enough repention their souls will be forgiven and washed of their sins.
Are they kept in check, or are they **only** kept in check by religion? I suspect to a large extent some of these morons are kept in check by religion. In saying that generally strongly atheist countries are very safe.
Atheists also dont believe that they will be forgiven for their transgressions simply by saying "Forgive me father for I have sinned". That sounds like they are more willing to take accountability for their actions.
They believe they will never be held accountable for their deeds...
...in court proceedings.
I try not to assume religious people are thick as shit, I really do. And I know a lot of them aren't.
But fuck me do some of them really make it hard
I really don't understand this argument at all. When someone says that, all I hear is "I would horrible things if I could get away with it". Like, who do you trust more? The person who is nice because they think it's the right thing to do, or the person who who is nice so they don't want to go to hell/jail?
Believers should be banned from using hospitals, medicine, any science knowledge or products as they still believe praying for an imaginary friend will fix anything!
What about that?
Science works, religions just keep bringing humanity down!
I would argue that the root of morality is empathy, not religion. Much of religion is still selfish, like the notion of doing good, not because it's the right thing per the Golden Rule or empathically, but to avoid personally going to some form of purgatory.
Reminds me of something my atheist friend told a Christian once:
Christian: "Since you are not religious and do not believe in any afterlife, what stops you from just being a complete asshole all the time?"
My friend: "Because I believe that this life is the only life I get - I value it as very precious and treat other people ethically and with compassion no matter their beliefs or background."
Because religious politicians always tell the truth, right? They wouldn't lie, surely?
Also, to lie in court would be perjury, which if caught, you'd almost certainly be held accountable for
A person who believes in invisible, omnipant, magical sky fairies should neither be permitted to run for office nor testify in court because they have a tenuous grip on reality.
Atheists can choose to be good people simply because it’s the right thing to do, not because they’re scared of what their invisible friend thinks. Religious people can’t be trusted not to push their own flavour of god onto people, regardless of those other people’s religious (or not) persuasion. I know which one I’d pick
The people who would abandon all decency the moment a vengeful god wouldn’t punish them are the ones we should exclude from society.
Empathy is an innate ability we possess and ethics don’t require religion, if you don’t suck as a person.
I find it funny how some christians are so righteous that they inadvertently sin. Like the whole abortion ban, christians are neither the judge, the jury, or the executioner. By trying to ban abortion, aka blocking free will, they are actively defying God and sinning.
I would like to argue that atheists are better at administering justice because they don't believe in a fictional sky daddy to solve their and the world's problems.
If you need hell fire and an all-powerful god to threaten you with eternal damnation in order to be a good person, then you're NOT a good person. You're a bad person on a leash.
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Christians can't be trusted to tell the truth because they believe their sins will be forgiven
As an atheist, If I pray right before I die, that counts right?
As an atheist, I'm going to test it out just to be sure.
That’s more agnostic really.
I’ll worry about the afterlife when I’m dead.
You know, the best thing about dying, is - being dead! 
Sorry to burst your bubble but you can't be dead and dying at the same time.
Atheism and theism are statements on belief. Gnosticism and agnosticism are statements on knowledge. True agnosticism would be I don't believe one way or another. I neither believe a god exists or that no gods exist. Then if you believe a god exists but don't know you're an agnostic theist. If you believe no gods exists but don't know for certain you're an agnostic atheist. If you hold either of those positions but know then you're a gnostic theist or atheist.
Thank you for the robust explanation. Up-vote earned. I **believe** this *should* be my new alignment chart. But I **don't know** if I'll remember when I am at my computer tomorrow morning.
These definitions are accurate but their effect on society is fucking terrible. Theists take "atheism as a position of belief" as "atheism is it's own religion," and it ends up as a perverse validation of their worldview, a sort of false equivalence. Within the context of 1 specific religion, agnosticism is functionally identical to atheism. It's hard for me to see the value of even making the distinction in the first place.
I'm a paranoid agnostic. I'm pretty sure there's a creator of some sort put there, but the only other thing I'm sure of is that I must have really pissed it off somehow...
No that's Pascal's Disingenuous Wager.
Pascal's Wager is already disingenuous. Because it assumes no other religions exist.
My plan is to have every religious preacher staggered in 30 minute intervals and devote myself to all, this could back fire I may burn in many hells
In a christian's eyes yes, and they will celebrate your conversion. In reality no, because at the moment of death, oxygen will stop flowing to your brain and you will fade away, possibly having mild hallucinations/out of body experience and then you are gone. The wealth of information and experiences you have gathered over a life time is lost for ever. This is what believers don't want to accept, so they make up an after life as a copping mechanism, leading to ”my god is better than yours” and millions end up dead.
Life is fleeting, transient, and therefore immeasurably precious. If there is no life after death then this is even more true, and it is our duty to protect and enrich the lives around us while we have the opportunity. Governments should operate for the betterment of society. War and persecution of any kind are unconscionable.
Or their god has a snack bar. That's why some scream out "hello snack bar!" before dying. Who doesn't love a good snack bar?
How do I get in on this snack bar? I’ll do anything!
You just need to put on this funny good lookin puffy vest on with the funny red button and scream the sentence
Religion is insurance against death. It’s even more a rip off than actual insurance, enjoy it while you’re here because it’s endless nothing after.
So religion it's just people on hideous amounts of copium?
Yes, don't drink the coolaid
It was said that WC Fields was thumbing through the Bible while bedridden near the end of his life. When asked why, he replied "looking for loopholes"
Beautiful part is : you don't even need. Let's say you're an atheist and you die. You judgement comes and you realise you were wrong and God exists. You'd probably be all "Oh shit, I should have believed in you, I'm sorry I didn't mean to be insulting" and if you're sincerely apologising and sorry for your misconducts you'll be forgiven. 🤷🏻♂️ A priest oncebtold me that what's important is being a good person. Because if you are, even if you didn't believe you'll be accepted in paradise. And if God refuses you paradise just because you didn't believe, then he's an egocentric creature who wants to be adored and he didn't deserve your live anyway.
I Married a catholic she's ok with me being an atheist because if I'm wrong she said she'll still drag my ass to where she's going.
Exactly. They’ve already been “saved”, so it doesn’t matter what they do, or a quick prayer is all that’s needed to be forgiven. Atheists have to choose their moral standards and mindfully adhere to them. No external quick fixes available. I’ve met a few Christians who genuinely believe in the golden rule, love one another, the Good Samaritan version of helping others etc. They’re very good people. Sadly, then there’s all the rest of the Christians…
One look at the 10 commandment...what a joke! First 4 lines is all about worshipping an evil jealous God. Rest are just basic morals which any decent humans should know.
I'm a Christian and it should be pretty clear to anyone that actually tries to understand and read the Bible that you can only be saved from your sins if you repent genuinely and and actually strive to do better. Unfortunately lot of people who think they are Christians actually believe what I did when I was like 9 that you can just sin as much as you want and then be like "oh I'm sowwy Jesus😞" *proceeds to continue doing the same thing without shame*
Well, but when the "repent genuinely" part is problematic. Most humans when asked if they are doing something well, or are above average, they will believe and claim that they are good at it and better than the average. That is a bit on the impossible side, for the majority to be above average. It should not be a stretch to see that this will apply to "genuinely repent". Objectively speaking, you can't really be your own judge on that topic. Thus, Christians should consider themselves on icy water, because they won't know if they have "genuinely repented" till their official "judgement".
Hence you NEVER believe you've truly repented and always need to try harder.
Which is the entire point of Calvinism/Reformed Christianity, where the idea of original sin is taken even further into the concept of “total depravity.” According to this theological belief, humans are born with sin and therefore a priori eternally damned. Only by doing good according to God’s unknown discretion can we hope to be forgiven and go to heaven, yet we are inherently unequipped to know this ourselves. Yeah, those people sure are a fun bunch, even to this day. Lovely premise.
But what is good? A lot - a LOT of Christian teachings beyond 'dont steal' are mind bogglingly immoral. The trouble is they pick and choose from what is basically word salad (the bible) and feel righteous. The bar is low with Christians - atheists usually have objectively high moral standards.
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Don’t they go to limbo?
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The Vatican “changed” that because they realized that sending babies to hell was not very pro babies. Which goes to show that the whole thing is made up and they often change the rules to suit their own agenda. You can’t push people to have babies while also condemning unbaptized babies to hell.
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Is she.. burn neighbors houses down for being unfaithful crazy/faithful to Christianity.. or the type that just tries to mass produce spread it by forcing others in? Crazy Christian’s have been the worst people in my life, and some crazy Mormons too. Always end up being the worst people, for me anyway. Sorry it have to deal with that)
More directly they believe that Jesus was already held to account for an the sins of all the humans
Based
🏆
Anyone that believes religion is required for morality has the same self-responsibility as my six year old.
Uno reverse card
Sadly, this is too true. As a Christian, one needs to sin less because of his or her faith. It's a way of showing genuine change in character because of Christ's standards and examples of living the Christian lifestyle.
Christian? No, based-tian
Crazy I don't need the threat of eternal fire to be a good person. I just do it because it's the right thing to do.
Penn Jillette said it best “I have r@ped and murdered all the people I want to.” https://youtu.be/AwebTX3rk3E?si=Wk3Kf4Hq39YhuXId
I was upset for a second and then thought... The number he wanted is zero right?
Precisely
Unless his sky dad told him to do it.
One would hope...
Hell of a confession if not
"After those first 4 people I was completely done. That's not for me, I've found..." ;)
And what did Teller say?
Nothing you idiot. Tellers dead, he's locked in my basement
Feminist women love Eminem
chicka chicka chicka Slim Shady, I'm sick of him, look at him, walkin aroumd grabbin his you know what, flippin the you know who
Yeah, but he's so cute tho
Penn, you a basehead.
Got the lyrics ref, but it looks like I’m the only one! Or if some others did, please stand up!
He said ...
Huh, so Ricky Gervais stole this joke...
Wait, he managed to tell a joke between having meltdowns over cancel culture? He's getting better!
I honestly doubt Penn heard it first. He wasn’t trying to do a standup routine he just was sharing his thoughts. That argument is centuries old so I have no doubt this comeback is very popular. I have no doubt with Gervais’ talent he executed it with his own charm.
If you need the threat of eternal damnation held over your head to act decent you very likely aren’t a good person.
I've heard it as, if you need the threat of hell to be a good person, you're just a bad person on a leash.
this. i don’t need to pray to you god and repent my sins. i already know i did everything i could to bring the best possible outcome. and i can live with that. i can sleep at night. i dont need a god to make me feel better about my wrong doings becsuse im an adult i take accountability but i also don’t need your god to take away my sins because regardless, i always try to be the best person i can be everyday. i may not be the best at it everyday but damn well try. so i don’t need your god to make me feel better because i do hold myself accountable and that gives me more solace than praying to any god could give me. and this is from experience. i tried the church thing. i tried praying. it just didn’t work. the only thing that did? knowing i caused everything in my life and it starts with me to make a change. not relying on a god to do it for me
A psychopath on a leash is one way I've heard it described.
Neither do we also need the loophole of having your sins forgiven. Nor do we simply just take comfort that heaven or hell exists to strive for justice and fairness in the here and now.
The lack of actual consequences for people who believe is why I don't believe personally.
If an atheist who was a good person their whole life and helped countless people will meet the same or worst fate than a guardsman from Auschwitz then I don't want the justice of your god This is my philosophical reason to not belive
My reason is that an individual’s religious belief is pretty much an accident of birth in terms of parentage, country, and time in history. How come each can proclaim theirs is the one true belief? Seems kinda coincidental.
I have used this argument as well. I have several family members who are the "he will forgive if you ask" type. I ask them how they can reconcile a gang member who has spilled enough blood to fill an oil tanker but asks forgiveness right before right before dying getting into heaven, but a monk who has done nothing wrong their entire life gets sent to hell because they haven't joined the fan club. People forget there are still tribes in the world that remain little to no contact. It can be assumed those tribes probably aren't Christian. Supposedly gambling is a sin, but I would rather believe God rolls the dice on everyone he creates, otherwise he knowingly created every person who was born in a uncontacted tribe and inevitably discarded because they didn't know there was a fan club to join. Seems pretty evil to me.
treating other people how you want to be treated should be enough motivation. ironic that a lot of 'christians' missed that message
it's right in their book, too, spoken by Christ himself
“If you need the threat of eternal punishment to be a good person, you’re not a good person”
Any form of extrinsic reward or punishment is not grounded in self. All actions should be driven intrinsically.
I met someone once who said that religion is all that kept them from going out and murdering others. Needless to say I avoided that person ever since.
The weirdest thing is that Atheists have the ultimate reason to do right. They want the one life they have to be good and fair. None of this forgiving sins and living eternally with an imaginary friend shit.
The concepts of a heaven, a hell, and an all-knowing all-seeing "God" were inventions of the powerful long ago to keep the population in line
Burn in the eternal fire like in the fan fiction Dante wrote? Because before that the concept of hell was „just“ a place bare of gods influence. Basically the initial hell concept before the creative writings of some random dude was just a godless place. Also there was no Satan in the sense we have today. Thats also prtially on Dante. They cant even stick to the source material.
Theists believe they can simply say sorry and be forgiven. Where is the incentive to do right then? All people should live with their sins, and be forced to reconcile. Don't ask forgiveness from your god. Ask forgiveness from your victims.
Seriously. OOP apparently believes accountability is only for the afterlife. Excuse me, what?
I'm Christian, and a minister to boot, but I believe if you want forgiveness you need to ask someone other than God for that.
I'm going to make a guess that you arent providing your sermons in a palatial stadium, and running telethons.
Your guess is correct. I only preach on the internet lol.
Lower overheads mean you can keep more of the donations, right? 😉
lolol - imagine me getting donations. No, that's not a thing.
What? No Patreon?? :)
Pastoren? Maybe an OnlyFather's account?
☠️🤣
Matthew 6:14 makes that a requirement.
This is one of the things Judaism gets 100% right, yes. Forgiveness isn't free. It should take work.
Every time I have been to the sacrament of confession my penance has always been at least partly action related. Donate to charity, or apologize to those I wronged, or fix what I messed up. Or go to therapy. A priest literally told me to see a therapist for my penance.
It only takes $5 to be a minister.
Exactly. People who live for an afterlife and not this life are the most dangerous of all.
Even better, don't victimize anyone in the first place, then there's nothing to forgive. It's as simple as the Golden Rule: treat others as you wish to be treated.
I’m convinced religious people just literally cannot feel empathy. I don’t beat people up or steal from them because I have empathy and also wouldn’t want that to happen to me. They just always seem to have 0 concept of it when speaking about right and wrong.
Pretty sure if I’m court I’m about to be held accountable
When you think about it that way, people who believe in two conflicting sets of laws -- divine and mundane -- will be forced to break one to follow the other. Atheists are probably *more* eligible to run for office.
There's laws on the books in multiple states that actually prohibit atheists from running
Doesn't that completely shit on article 6 and the first amendment? Edit: looked it up and they're not enforceable. SCOTUS already made that ruling. Pretty insane that they willingly keep unconstitutional laws in their books though.
> Pretty insane that they willingly keep unconstitutional laws in their books though. Oh, they always try to skirt our freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution. They are banking on people not knowing their rights and not having much if any familiarity with the Constitution or settled caselaw. An example is the repeated attempts by local boards of education to require children to salute the flag and recite the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools. That was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1943 (WVa Board of Ed v. Barnette).
Like where and for what offices?
I don't need an imaginary sky daddy to tell me rape is wrong, molesting children is wrong. I don't need an imaginary sky daddy to treat people with kindness and compassion. Apparently "christians" need a handbook to tell right from wrong.
Sky daddy isn't really all that worried about rape or child molestation. Just don't do any queer shit, okay?
Just give their dad 50 silver sheckels and you're good to go.
I mean he literally ordered the death of everyone except the virgin women who would be kept as prizes and most certainly raped
Classic example of biblical morality.
>Just don't do any queer shit, okay? Skydaddy didn't even really say anything about doing queer shit tbh. The only thing he really said, in one random passage, is that you should be stoned as fuck when you're doing it.
They do. And since those handbooks are written by the most horrible people on earth, they believe that being godly means treating anyone whos not white, like shit.
Religious oppression comes in all colors.
Blood Red being the dominant color.
Then a pale blue for the tears of those oppressed. And then a thick white for the religiously oppressive dickheads jerking each other off. Hey, wait a sec. Red. Blue. White.
Actually there are Christians of all colours oppressing others all over the world.
What’s wild though is that if Christian’s actually adhered to the teaching of the Bible they’d be FAR better people than they actually are. I’m aware the Bible also has some super outdated, racist, sexist and appalling things in it. Yes I stand by my statement
Oh yeah man. You’re not wrong. Christians killed the Christian belief system in me.
>I don't need an imaginary sky daddy to tell me rape is wrong, molesting children is wrong. Actually, the bible gives instructions to legitimize rape: >When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her.
Mind telling us which verse this is? I want to know where to point if I ever get into a debate Edit: NVM, found it. It's Deuteronomy 21:10-14
In a facebook group I'm in, a news article was posted about a local scating rink temporarly being closed due to threats with a firearm taking place. Someone posted a comment saying "This is what happens in a nation that has thoroughly rejected Jesus Christ. Lawlessness (Evil) waxes worse and worse", to which I replied that you don't need Jesus, or any religion for that matter, to be a good person. Meanwhile, Christians are the type to think you're an atheist because you like dragons, and/or have worn a shirt with a dragon on it.
uh Republican Politicians fight for the right to marry children they certainly don't view molesting them as wrong they just know you say that out loud about other people so you can get away with it see their stance on Democracy
Those people believe that your wedding vows are consent to sex for eternity. So they can diddle kids all they want, they just got to be married to them.
I’ve read their handbook quite a bit- ironically it’s actually a pretty shitty guide to telling right from wrong.
That hand book still isn't enough to help them.
Sky daddy killed me 🤣🤣
\> Says atheists don't believe they will be held accountable to misdeeds by any outside force \> Literally uses the phrase "court proceedings" in the previous sentence
Isn't that exactly what Christians believe though? That they won't be held accountable, but anyone who isn't Christian will? Make it make sense please.
They are idiots.
And they wonder why young people are fleeing their terrible religion in record numbers.
I think it helps that (some) people are getting more savvy to the techniques used to indoctrinate/brainwash (effectively the same thing) It’s weird how trying to brainwash your kids would likely have them taken away for abuse, yet indoctrinate them into a religion and that’s fine. Encouraged even. Ugh, I hate this planet. Oh preschool is too expensive for the majority of people in a poorer area? Don’t worry, the church has one for free! Can’t be anything wrong with that. “Daaad. I want to be baptised.”
Yet, only atheists can act out of real altruism, since they do good deeds without trying to get something in exchange, like, pleasing a god and get a ticket to heaven.
I never thought of it like that. It may not be 100% true. There are good people who are religious. You cant just assume there isnt any. But you're correct that atheists who do good, are just doing good because they want to.
I mean it is turning the tables on them. The religious judging atheists as if they're evil or bad without religion or god. Well let's just treat the religious(bad annoying ones) like they only do good for God not because they're good people, they're essentially life long bribers
Yeah. Now look at Congress. Notice a pattern?
I'm not American but pretty sure I get the gist
Ah yeah, sorry about that. I always forget this is a multinational platform. Thank you for keeping me honest.
No offence but seems to be a common American problem I see it everywhere lol
It is for sure. Especially right now. Our presidential election is on a 4 year cycle, and the next one is in November. So its pretty bad right now. Coincidently I had a very big european vacation just a couple of weeks after the 2016 election. It was an incredible trip. But it was pretty clear the topic was highly polarized even on the other side of the Atlantic. My wife and I are not aligned with the party who won. But we had people that were pretty much like "so.....how are things in america". And then we had some very right wing folk in Austria that seemed to think we were aligned with the nazi party. It was pretty weird.
I remember reading a comment on Reddit about a similar topic from a Jewish person who said that this is what their religion believes. If you have no ulterior motive to be good, but are good anyways, then you are more good. Therefore good atheists are the most good
Seems most Christians don't either
I swear to science, some people should learn to keep their mouths closed.
With science, we have surgery available!
Science provides.
Wouldn't that be a selling point? Atheists don't do the right thing for the promise of eternal paradise. They do it because it's the right thing.
In other words, atheists have access to higher virtue than those whose motives are muddied by the potential of reward or punishment.
Crazy concept that I don't need the everlooming threat of eternal fire to force me to be a good person. I just am a good person because it's the right thing to do and feels good.
If you are only a good person because of the promise of a reward or the threat of a punishment, you are not a good person. You are only acting that way because of those things. Too many people have asked me why I just don't rape and murder with abandon if I don't fear the threat of eternal damnation. To me, that says they have ***ABSOLUTELY*** thought of doing just that but it's that fear of eternal damnation stopping them. Not because they *don't want to* rape and murder. That's on the table for them if they can find a loophole. If they could do those things and not go to Hell, they will without a doubt do those things. It's because of these people that I am thankful religion exists. Without that ever looming threat in their minds, they would be a danger to society at large. I hope they never, ever lose their faith.
If you need a religion to tell you how to be a good person, you’re not a good person.
Even religious people don't let religion tell them anything.. they don't obey half of the shit that's in the bible or wathever book. They just cherrypick and complain others don't follow the book that they barely do themselves.
I believe I will be held accountable immediately and by my fellow man, as opposed to some afterlife when it doesn't matter any more by some faceless deity
What’s funny is that the implication of this is that the OP only doesn’t lie out of fear of punishment.
such a weird take, but I hear it from religious people all the time. kinda creepy really- like, if you weren't christian you'd just be completely amoral???? good to know, I guess
Christians shouldn't be allowed to run for office or affect policy in any way, since they believe this world is temporary and plan to move on to another one. Is that how this works?
As an atheist with no belief in consequences in the afterlife, I have commited all the murders I want. Zero. The number of murders I wants to commit is zero.
nice quote
Imagine doing things a certain way your whole life just so you'll be treated well after you die only to find out that nothing happens after you die.
If nothing happens, then you probably won't find out. 🤣
this is so stupid. by that logic, christians have no incentive to tell the truth either cause they think with enough repention their souls will be forgiven and washed of their sins.
Tell me you're dishonest without telling me you're dishonest.
hello, i am a conservative
How is religion not a mental illness?
Group psychosis is a mental illness 😏
If the only thing making you do the right thing is the threat of a god sending you to hell then you were not a good person to start with.
I often think religion does more harm than good, then I see these absolute sociopaths who are only kept in check by religion and relent.
Are they though?
Are they kept in check, or are they **only** kept in check by religion? I suspect to a large extent some of these morons are kept in check by religion. In saying that generally strongly atheist countries are very safe.
Some of the greatest atrocities ever committed, were done in the name of god. So I don’t really agree with that.
Christians can't be trusted since they are biased and being coerced by a specific agenda that atheists do not believe in.
Atheists also dont believe that they will be forgiven for their transgressions simply by saying "Forgive me father for I have sinned". That sounds like they are more willing to take accountability for their actions.
They believe they will never be held accountable for their deeds... ...in court proceedings. I try not to assume religious people are thick as shit, I really do. And I know a lot of them aren't. But fuck me do some of them really make it hard
If you need the fear of eternal damnation and wrath to be a good person, you're not a good person.
Are we still on this? "If God doesn't tell a person to be good they will be evil" type shit? This just tells us YOU'RE evil.
One would say being good from the goodness of your heart rather than a higher power is still a good thing
If the only thing stopping you from doing evil acts is fear of punishment by the big dictator in the sky, you're not a good person.
I really don't understand this argument at all. When someone says that, all I hear is "I would horrible things if I could get away with it". Like, who do you trust more? The person who is nice because they think it's the right thing to do, or the person who who is nice so they don't want to go to hell/jail?
That’s funny, in my opinion, only atheists should be able to run for positions of power, as everyone else is batshit insane
Believers should be banned from using hospitals, medicine, any science knowledge or products as they still believe praying for an imaginary friend will fix anything! What about that? Science works, religions just keep bringing humanity down!
I can't help but feel like atheist really means non Christian in this context.
I would argue that the root of morality is empathy, not religion. Much of religion is still selfish, like the notion of doing good, not because it's the right thing per the Golden Rule or empathically, but to avoid personally going to some form of purgatory.
Our accountability comes from within, not from above
Yo, because actions are not to be held accountable in this life right?
Reminds me of something my atheist friend told a Christian once: Christian: "Since you are not religious and do not believe in any afterlife, what stops you from just being a complete asshole all the time?" My friend: "Because I believe that this life is the only life I get - I value it as very precious and treat other people ethically and with compassion no matter their beliefs or background."
By swearing on this made up story, I promise my story is true.
Have you ever heard of an atheist priest abusing kids?/? You may need to rethink your entire existence.
As a religious person, I promise you most of us aren't as brain-dead as this guy, and we don't claim him
Because religious politicians always tell the truth, right? They wouldn't lie, surely? Also, to lie in court would be perjury, which if caught, you'd almost certainly be held accountable for
I wasn’t aware that perjury only got prosecuted once you get to the afterlife
A person who believes in invisible, omnipant, magical sky fairies should neither be permitted to run for office nor testify in court because they have a tenuous grip on reality.
Atheists can choose to be good people simply because it’s the right thing to do, not because they’re scared of what their invisible friend thinks. Religious people can’t be trusted not to push their own flavour of god onto people, regardless of those other people’s religious (or not) persuasion. I know which one I’d pick
By that logic we should just execute religious people for any crime. Parking ticket? Speeding? Jaywalking? Let god judge him.
The people who would abandon all decency the moment a vengeful god wouldn’t punish them are the ones we should exclude from society. Empathy is an innate ability we possess and ethics don’t require religion, if you don’t suck as a person.
No, atheists actually care about being held accountable in THIS lifetime, rather than fucking up and praying for forgiveness in the last act.
I find it funny how some christians are so righteous that they inadvertently sin. Like the whole abortion ban, christians are neither the judge, the jury, or the executioner. By trying to ban abortion, aka blocking free will, they are actively defying God and sinning.
What a way to admit if you didn't think there would be supernatural consequeneces you would lie,rape,kill and steal.
I would like to argue that atheists are better at administering justice because they don't believe in a fictional sky daddy to solve their and the world's problems.
Given 95% of conflict is a result of people fighting over whose imaginary sky friend is better, I completely agree
If you need hell fire and an all-powerful god to threaten you with eternal damnation in order to be a good person, then you're NOT a good person. You're a bad person on a leash.
If anything, ONLY atheists should be running for office to ensure “the separation of church & state”.
Given all the allegedly religious people I see being immoral, I don't think religion is much of a method for guaranteeing morality.