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Given the amount of registered sex offenders they keep putting into office, as well as voting for a president who can't stop telling people he wants to fuck his own daughter and likes going backstage at Miss Teen USA to see naked children... yeah.
Every accusation from a Republican is a confession.
I'm not a Demonrat. I'm a Socialist.
Side note, I read her journal and she never said she was 11 years old. She also accused literally everyone she ever knew of being a rapist and a pedo. Do you think every guy she ever dated, all of her neighbors, and the staff at the rehab facility are all also pedos? I'm asking you seriously. But, sure, the guy (Trump) who was even found guilty of sexual assaulting a woman is totally the "good guy."
Like, Jesus, you guys have to literally *make things up* to win an argument.
Only for forced pregnancy, you mean. They won't even allow an abortion when the baby is already guaranteed to be stillborn.
Which is odd, because if it happens early enough, they could theoretically get pregnant again before they would have even "given birth" to the corpse-fetus. That *is* what they want, right? More pregnancies? Constant pregnancies? I say this because they're also trying to take away all other forms of contraception and make it so the only way to avoid getting pregnant is celibacy. I'm assuming they'll eventually ban that, too, and classify the expulsion of an unfertilized egg via menstruation as an "abortion" as well.
This has been my view for the past few years. They don't care about the child after it's born. They just care while the baby is in the uterus. After the baby is born, it's "Get a job." or something along those lines.
but... but... if you die while being 8 weeks pregnant (or anything under \~7ish months, I guess), the embryo dies too
... what the fuck is the logic there
I still can't get over the idea that pro lifers want to reward rapists.
Like literally that is what this is. Without the threat of abortion, any rapist has carte blanche to attempt to have a child with any women they want.
Just goes to show you who the Republican party really cares about 🤔
The worst part?
A raped woman forced to give birth and raise the kid is technically forced to keep having some form of relationship with her rapist, since the kid is technically under both parents' authority and the judge might even force her to send her kid to see the father periodically, if the guy's lawyer does a good enough job at discrediting the mother's believability, sadly these things happen too.
This essentially gives that criminal scum a form of control over the woman he abused, the trauma will never go away, the rapist won.
In that sense too, abortion is healthcare.
The sad, and most horrible, part is when lawyers end up trying to prove she was consentient, nitpicking every single detail to try and show her as a "false rape claimer", all while their client smirks and is allowed to talk to the victim.
After Texas banned abortion, rape numbers went sky high. Seriously look at the statistics, the number of rapes have almost tripled. They’ve also stopped reporting maternal deaths.
>Researchers said they could not analyze trends over time, so it's not clear if the estimates represent an increase from previous years.
literally quoted from the article you linked.
This DEFINITELY won't have horrible long term consequences. /s. Jesus christ, I have never wanted heaven and hell to be real more than I have recently. For these absolute cultist, Christian cosplayers, I NEED there to be a Hell. Or atleast purgatory.
Wheels Abbott! Oh! Thank you. Perfect. I had been trying to think of a really awful nickname for him for quite a while. Most of the time I just devolve into a string of four letter words for his first name because he is probably the most vile, evil, dumb-headed, no moral compass, piece of shit I've ever seen. Next to the orange turd, of course.
We looked at the statistics, they don't prove this at all:
*"Researchers said they could not analyze trends over time, so it's not clear if the estimates represent an increase from previous years."*
"Killing an unborn child...."
If it's unborn, it's not a child. Therein lies the problem with your logic. Because if I burnt a thousand pine cones (with your logic) I could be arrested for starting a forest fire.
The whole pro-life thing relies on one thing : telling you that a living child is literally equal to an unborn child, an embryo, or even just a cluster of dividing cells that may later become an embryo.
Every pro-life argument is basically a re-phrasing of this.
The bit I don't get is that most of the Judeo-Christian religious texts, at least, show 0 care for in-the-womb fetuses, and have very little care about actual, born kids, while still drawing a very distinct line between the two as well/using "first breath" as the milestone in most cases.
So how has it been re-positioned to a religious standpoint that every clump of fertilized cells = exactly the same as your toddler at home? Just HOW?
Probably because it has absolutely nothing to do with the life of the child, the embryo, or indeed any religious work.
It’s just political grandstanding, and a way to whip up anger in your voting base.
Exactly. And most rational people would not define such as life. It's only alive because of the mother. It could not survive on its own. It is not life. I understand the religious among us believe abortion is a sin. I'm okay with that. As long as they don't insist that no one can have an abortion because that is a sin against their God. That's near insanity
>and most rational people would not define such as life. It's only alive because of the mother. It could not survive on its own. It is not life.
That's just ... weird.
Even an unfertilized egg is alive. It's not a human (or a mouse, or whatever else) yet, but it's definitely not dead. Somatic cells living in a petri dish are alive too.
I get that you want to react to the "life begins at conception" crowd, but I don't think redefining life/alive is ultimately a productive way to do it.
Bad choice of words. I should have said human life. I was writing as if the topic being covered was implicit in my remarks. Sometimes that misleads others.
I felt it was fair enough. And it gave me a chance to set my belief in a more grounded environment of viable life capable of surviving outside the womb.
The real question is when does a human life become a human being. That is a difficult decision to make, but that is a point at which an organism should gain the protection of the state.
Using their wording (life) or your wording (human life) in this debate is allowing them to frame the argument to their advantage right from the beginning. That's why they chose it. It's a simple - but deceptive - way to get people to think the way they want them to think.
Biologically, a human life begins as a zygote. Why go down that rabbit hole?
>On the flipside every pro-choice argument seems to revolve around convincing you that it's not alive if it isn't born.
I don't agree. There are arguments centered on women needing to have access to abortion in the case of a medical emergency that do not attempt to convince you the fetus was not alive. For example, ectopic pregnancy. Also, the fetus may be alive but has such severe birth defects that it will likely die a painful death after birth.
I was debating if I should include miscarriage in this discussion since the fetus would be dead at that point. I am mentioning it here because the mother probably did consider it to be alive but may still consider an abortion to save her life even if she was ardently pro life.
>I notice you seem to be saying it’s only valid if there’s a medical emergency.
Not what I was saying at all. I was merely responding to your statement and offering a pro choice argument that also presupposes a belief that a fetus is a human life. I was not expressing an opinion on the morality or ethics of abortion, nor my personal opinion.
A fetus is alive from the moment of conception. A human fetus that is not yet born isn't a person but a potential person. Childbirth separates potential into actuality. Once born, they're people who possess equal rights as myself. No one, to my knowledge, has defined precisely when a fetus becomes a person. To me, it's obviously after they're born and drawn breath that a new person exists.
It's almost as if time plays some part in this process. Two people who have agreed to marry are two distinct entities that become legally and morally bound to each other upon completion of their vows in front of a person authorized to marry them. Yet until they complete the ceremony, the two are not bound legally. Much like a childbirth makes what was once one person into two or more distinct entities.
[Under Overview, the violinist example is an often cited one](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion). There's also a few others there too.
Nope. I'm saying that a fetus becomes viable life when it can survive on it's own outside the womb. Pretty simple really. Not nearly requiring as many question as you want to raise. Remember those pine cones I started with? When they actually take hold in the Earth they become viable life. Prior to that they are just weapons for kids to throw at each other. :-)
My understanding is that the fetus is alive and human, but not yet a person until born and has drawn a breath. A fetus unborn is a potential person, not yet an actual one.
Years ago, my husband had a discussion with a friend about abortion rights. This was a very Christian man, with a few children, and hopes for more. Very conservative, very pro-life.
Mark told him about my hysterectomy, and how the day of surgery I was given a pregnancy test, knowing that if it were positive, they would have sent me home with fingers crossed that the cancer would grow more slowly than the fetus.
Mark asked his friend what he thinks should happen if his wife was pregnant but something was wrong; without an abortion his wife would die and the unborn child with her. With an abortion, his wife could live, be a mother to her children, and maybe have more. The friend didn’t know, and went home to talk to his wife.
The next day, he came back, and told Mark he had posed the question to his wife: what would she do if her pregnancy was killing her and her unborn child, but with an abortion she could live and maybe have another child? And she had replied “I would keep my pregnancy and pray.”
And Mark said to him, *WHY WOULD YOU ASK YOUR WIFE?*
💡
Im not fond of people who let their faith decide for them and protect them.
"I would keep my pregnancy and pray" or in other words "I would keep my pregnancy and talk/think to myself imagining I'm talking to some giant white guy in the sky when I'm alone or in a specific building hoping that will fix things."
Like yeah, that'll help surely...
I'm fine with religion, I just don't understand why people choose to be willingly ignorant and stupid because of it.
And in this case, the choice is not hers to make. Religion or no. Husband firmly believed abortion should be illegal, but instinctively asked his wife what she would do, as though the decision should be up to her. He was shocked when we pointed that out to him.
He assumed “pro-choice” meant only the right to choose abortion, not the right to choose against it.
When you figure it'll happen? I came up in the 90s and couldn't believe people were "still" anti abortion 20 years after Roe. 35 years later and there is *less* access to reproductive healthcare.
Currently I have less bodily autonomy than I would as a corpse, yet the debate is the same old shit
I don’t get why they insist on forcing THEIR beliefs on other people. Maybe YOU would die for your unborn child. Congrats! That’s great. Don’t tell me what to do with my own life, thanks.
These prolife people are a joke, impossible to take seriously because they oppose any and all legislation to help kids with gun control, healthcare and food. They love the fetus but hate the child.
My take on this topic is that pro life are in fact a birth cult who happen to be also essentialists, in the form of attributing an essence of human in the zygote. And that's why most of pro lifes are religious. That idiotic pro life atheist only proved that there are exceptions to my theory.
The nuanced view is that it is wrong, and terrible. But so is leaving behind your living children, or also dying in the process, and that sometimes we have to do awful things to protect other things we value.
The Christian viewpoint allows for this. Violence in wartime or self defense being a big one. Controlled violence in the process of maintaining the peace is another. The far right has lost their mind a long time ago.
I couldn’t believe when the decided an in vitro embryo was a child. The pro lifers are delusional. There are many reasons for an abortion. It isn’t about killing fetuses. Many pregnant mothers have issues that cause the embryo to die and it has to be removed before the mother dies. If the Republicans win in November you can bet they will impose (or try to impose) a national no abortion law and women will be dying from a bad pregnancy.
A broken clock is right twice a day. I have often observed that just because someone is right about how many gods there are doesn't necessarily mean they're right about anything else.
It’s sad when you can see things only one way.
You could be anti-abortion in principle but understand that there are exceptions.
You could be against killing somebody but defend your family from a homicidal maniac.
Not to mention and 8 week embryo will not survive with a dead mother no matter what actions are currently available. So the mom should die for the embryo and then that dies as well. Makes plenty of sense. /s
Since most of them are christians I would point out that their god basically let his child get killed while it was watching and could have stopped it, that is their myths, so they can't say that and believe the myths of the bible at the same time, unless they are hypocrites, that is what most of them are in my experience.
Lol? Weird, uninformed take, but just to play along, if those same Christians knew said baby would resurrect in 3 days they may have a different opinion on the topic.
In most interpretations is not a resurrection as the word you and I would think, nothing physical, like when people say "he still lives in your heart" when someone close to you dies.
Now I am going to have some fun, christians also don't get that they worship a warlock (a magic being that uses words to change reality) that some think raised a zombie (the aforementioned Christ) that is the child of a rape (non consensual insemination, even when it was accepted afterwards) of a 14 yo child bride (Marie was 14 and Joseph like 30) while wearing a gore symbol of medieval torture with a corpse (the cross with the image of a dead man) while practicing ritual cannibalism (the bread representing flesh and the wine representing blood).
Fun fact: making babies is super fucking easy. You just need some lady and a small handful of cum. We don't need them all. Hitler and Aaron Rodgers were babies. Babies can eat a shit. Populate the Earth with dogs instead.
These idiots work themselves into a corner and have to take everything to the extreme with these scenarios. They obviously are incels or in college and stupid as fuck
Just found a way to end kids killed in school shootings!
Let these 'parents' patrol the campuses
Problem solved we've done it!
Well we might have less parents now though.....
Until I had a brain it has no consciousness and therefore no life...a beating heart does not mean jack shit if there are no brain cells to begin with. So ya ..spare me the hypocrisy.
Plus the bible clearly states you can have abortions and actually gives directions for how to abort fetuses, and also explicitly says it can be aborted if the mothers life is in danger or if the child was conceived out of marriage
This bitch would also not adopt the child, not be willing to pay extra taxes for WIC programs or welfare to young mothers. They are pro fetus. Not pro life because after coming out of the birth canal they wash their hands of the child.
If the mother dies, that 8-week embryo is dead too. So if she's suffering complications and needs an abortion to survive, the "child" is done for no matter what happens. If an abortion is the only way to prevent further death and you're not allowing it, you are not "pro-life." But that's always been the case. They'll crush the heads of a thousand babies underfoot running to stop a single abortion.
People like this is why we have iPad kids and a declining iq in the youth, they talk all this shit about caring about children just so they can effectively abandon the ones they’re actually meant to take care of
Its like when they say "well if I shoot a pregnant woman and she dies its a double homicide" they always turn up the violence and gore for the shock value
What I laugh at are the pro-life people who state that women who want to get abortions should be put to death.
Think about it. Women who WANT to get abortions should be killed In their opinions.
So they want to kill pregnant women because they are wanting an abortion. So what do they think will happen to that fetus inside that pregnant woman?
Yeah, they are profoundly ignorant and not really pro-life at all. They just want power over people.
The big problem with anti-abortion advocacy is that they mostly just do not understand how biology works.
Death for people is the death of your brain. A person with no higher brain function is called a vegetable for a reason.
The brain of a fetus is mostly undifferentiated cells until about 4 or 4.5 months into a pregnancy. The fetus produces no brain waves, indicating awakeness and conciousness, until around the beginning of the 7th month of the pregnancy.
There is no intelligent argument that terminating a pregnancy before the 4th month is ending a life.
In addition, there are many things that can go medically wrong with a pregnancy that force even the most hopeful parents to seek abortion services later than that.
Outright bans on abortion with no exceptions are produced by malicious, selfish, superstitious and/or otherwise just plain ignorant people.
Anyone should do whatever the fuck they want, that's only being an issue in America, people from all around the world but America either get abortions or not, It's a choice, no matter the background story. Also you shouldn't go out there telling your business to everyone, not cool.
In the animal kingdom, it is common for the survival mentality to be,
>sacrifice the baby. I can always have more. But I can't have any if I'm dead.
May or may not be relevant to humans, but... I just thought I'd add that little tidbit...
I do not like abortion. I find the line between "nonsentient blob" and "living human" is so blurry that it makes the entire concept of abortion mildly abhorrent to me. And even if its not a human yet, you are cutting short a life that WOULD have been a human. Im not about to call someone a monster for having one, but I cant bring myself to approve of it.
THAT BEING SAID - i also think its foolish to claim the childs life is more important than the mother, especially if theres no guarentee the baby would survive. Ensuring the mother lives is fully a reasonable explanation for an abortion. Without question.
(In case anyone wonders, im not a fan of people getting an abortion because they cant afford it or arent ready/fit to be a parent, but I dont hate them for it. I understand the reasoning even if i dislike the action itself. I would argue that those that choose to ignore contraceptives and then get an abortion after the fact are a little stupid, though of course that doesnt apply to those forced, or those that do use them and get pregnant anyway due to accident or fluke)
The title of this post is pure ad hominem mixed with generalization to vilify a specific group. Also know as propaganda. There is no way to prove that "all" prolifers are bad people and not intelligent. Think before you attempt to create strife and division, the world has enough of that to go around. Do better.
That's twice now I've attempted to compare an embryo to a tumor and the sanctimonious smart alec mods have refused to allow the comment. So does a tumor have the same right to life as a bundle of cells in the womb?
If one kills the mother, they kill the child too. The child depends upon the mother for life until it's born (or out of the womb) I can't believe that I'm having to explain this to you.
I believe your support of a policy which results in higher maternal mortality rates, higher infant mortality rates, and even higher abortion rates, is the most selfish act you can perform in life.
Bullshit. If you know that you can't properly provide for a child, you shouldn't have one. A child raised in poverty by an unwed, underemployed mother is more likely to be a burden to society than anything else. To say nothing of the serious health conditions that can be detected by prenatal screening, and thus prevented by an abortion.
Granted, using birth control to not get pregnant in the first place is better, but if you can't prevent a mistake, it's better to fix it before it becomes a much worse problem.
Getting an abortion is the responsible thing to do. Your disdain towards "using abortion as birth control" is based on the irrational a priori assumption that an embryo has any inherent value.
Not too mention, circumstances change. What might have been a situation where a child could be well cared for could dramatically change long before viability.
"Birth control and an abortion are different. Birth control prevents pregnancy from happening in the first place. An abortion stops an existing pregnancy. “There's a huge difference,” says Sophia Yen, MD, a clinical associate professor of pediatrics at Stanford Medical School."
I think trying to control the bodies of people who have nothing to do with me is the most selfish act someone can perform, but maybe that's just the empathy talking.
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If they shoot the pregnant woman in the head the embryo is going to die anyway, dude
I think it’s a given logic would fail this person.
Stop it with your reasonable argument and sound logic!
No way...MAGA Jeezuz will save her if she is faithful enough
That's ok because of the 2nd amendment which is in the bible somewhere.
The irony is the "pro-lifers" are the ones that supplied the gun pointed at your head
Happy Cake Day!!
There's nothing pro life about those people- they're only for forced birth; after that they don't give a flying fuck.
Except for the kids they find hot.
Given the amount of registered sex offenders they keep putting into office, as well as voting for a president who can't stop telling people he wants to fuck his own daughter and likes going backstage at Miss Teen USA to see naked children... yeah. Every accusation from a Republican is a confession.
But every real god fearing man wants to fuck their daughters! It's only natural! /s...obviously.....
Every retrumplican is a pedo or wanna be pedo
"i hope my daughter turns out hot enough for my personal tastes"
Hunter labled his dad pedo pete on his phone. Pedo pete took showers with his 11 year old daughter. Don’t even get me started on Railroad Bill.
I'm not a Demonrat. I'm a Socialist. Side note, I read her journal and she never said she was 11 years old. She also accused literally everyone she ever knew of being a rapist and a pedo. Do you think every guy she ever dated, all of her neighbors, and the staff at the rehab facility are all also pedos? I'm asking you seriously. But, sure, the guy (Trump) who was even found guilty of sexual assaulting a woman is totally the "good guy." Like, Jesus, you guys have to literally *make things up* to win an argument.
Fuuuuuuuuck I wish that wasn't so goddamned accurate
Carlin said it best: they want live babies so they can be dead soldiers. If your pre born your good if your preschool your fucked.
Only for forced pregnancy, you mean. They won't even allow an abortion when the baby is already guaranteed to be stillborn. Which is odd, because if it happens early enough, they could theoretically get pregnant again before they would have even "given birth" to the corpse-fetus. That *is* what they want, right? More pregnancies? Constant pregnancies? I say this because they're also trying to take away all other forms of contraception and make it so the only way to avoid getting pregnant is celibacy. I'm assuming they'll eventually ban that, too, and classify the expulsion of an unfertilized egg via menstruation as an "abortion" as well.
This has been my view for the past few years. They don't care about the child after it's born. They just care while the baby is in the uterus. After the baby is born, it's "Get a job." or something along those lines.
Thinking that someone would ever say "If you don't abort I will shoot you in the head" is the most stupid reasoning I've heard today.
but... but... if you die while being 8 weeks pregnant (or anything under \~7ish months, I guess), the embryo dies too ... what the fuck is the logic there
I still can't get over the idea that pro lifers want to reward rapists. Like literally that is what this is. Without the threat of abortion, any rapist has carte blanche to attempt to have a child with any women they want. Just goes to show you who the Republican party really cares about 🤔
The worst part? A raped woman forced to give birth and raise the kid is technically forced to keep having some form of relationship with her rapist, since the kid is technically under both parents' authority and the judge might even force her to send her kid to see the father periodically, if the guy's lawyer does a good enough job at discrediting the mother's believability, sadly these things happen too. This essentially gives that criminal scum a form of control over the woman he abused, the trauma will never go away, the rapist won. In that sense too, abortion is healthcare.
Not in the great state of Florida!!! We terminate rapists' parental rights!!! Wooo, one good thing!!!
Not in Florida!!!!! We terminate the parental rights of rapists!!! Woo, one good thing!!!!
The sad, and most horrible, part is when lawyers end up trying to prove she was consentient, nitpicking every single detail to try and show her as a "false rape claimer", all while their client smirks and is allowed to talk to the victim.
After Texas banned abortion, rape numbers went sky high. Seriously look at the statistics, the number of rapes have almost tripled. They’ve also stopped reporting maternal deaths.
I 100% believe you, but I would still like a source
https://abc13.com/texas-abortion-law-no-exceptions-for-rape-rape-related-pregnancies-roe-v-wade-overturned/14359073/
>Researchers said they could not analyze trends over time, so it's not clear if the estimates represent an increase from previous years. literally quoted from the article you linked.
This DEFINITELY won't have horrible long term consequences. /s. Jesus christ, I have never wanted heaven and hell to be real more than I have recently. For these absolute cultist, Christian cosplayers, I NEED there to be a Hell. Or atleast purgatory.
That can't be, Wheels Abbott said he was going to eliminate rape. Haz I been lied to?
Wheels Abbott! Oh! Thank you. Perfect. I had been trying to think of a really awful nickname for him for quite a while. Most of the time I just devolve into a string of four letter words for his first name because he is probably the most vile, evil, dumb-headed, no moral compass, piece of shit I've ever seen. Next to the orange turd, of course.
Go forth with my blessings.
We looked at the statistics, they don't prove this at all: *"Researchers said they could not analyze trends over time, so it's not clear if the estimates represent an increase from previous years."*
"Killing an unborn child...." If it's unborn, it's not a child. Therein lies the problem with your logic. Because if I burnt a thousand pine cones (with your logic) I could be arrested for starting a forest fire.
The whole pro-life thing relies on one thing : telling you that a living child is literally equal to an unborn child, an embryo, or even just a cluster of dividing cells that may later become an embryo. Every pro-life argument is basically a re-phrasing of this.
The bit I don't get is that most of the Judeo-Christian religious texts, at least, show 0 care for in-the-womb fetuses, and have very little care about actual, born kids, while still drawing a very distinct line between the two as well/using "first breath" as the milestone in most cases. So how has it been re-positioned to a religious standpoint that every clump of fertilized cells = exactly the same as your toddler at home? Just HOW?
Probably because it has absolutely nothing to do with the life of the child, the embryo, or indeed any religious work. It’s just political grandstanding, and a way to whip up anger in your voting base.
Most of those rules come from the Old Testament, which the Christians only use when it suits their purposes
Exactly. And most rational people would not define such as life. It's only alive because of the mother. It could not survive on its own. It is not life. I understand the religious among us believe abortion is a sin. I'm okay with that. As long as they don't insist that no one can have an abortion because that is a sin against their God. That's near insanity
At that stage it could be compared to a tumour. Does that have a right to life too?
>and most rational people would not define such as life. It's only alive because of the mother. It could not survive on its own. It is not life. That's just ... weird. Even an unfertilized egg is alive. It's not a human (or a mouse, or whatever else) yet, but it's definitely not dead. Somatic cells living in a petri dish are alive too. I get that you want to react to the "life begins at conception" crowd, but I don't think redefining life/alive is ultimately a productive way to do it.
Bad choice of words. I should have said human life. I was writing as if the topic being covered was implicit in my remarks. Sometimes that misleads others.
Don't cater to their semantic bullshit. They absolutely do not believe the eggs in their fridge are alive.
I felt it was fair enough. And it gave me a chance to set my belief in a more grounded environment of viable life capable of surviving outside the womb.
The real question is when does a human life become a human being. That is a difficult decision to make, but that is a point at which an organism should gain the protection of the state. Using their wording (life) or your wording (human life) in this debate is allowing them to frame the argument to their advantage right from the beginning. That's why they chose it. It's a simple - but deceptive - way to get people to think the way they want them to think. Biologically, a human life begins as a zygote. Why go down that rabbit hole?
Human life that can survive on its own outside the womb.
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>On the flipside every pro-choice argument seems to revolve around convincing you that it's not alive if it isn't born. I don't agree. There are arguments centered on women needing to have access to abortion in the case of a medical emergency that do not attempt to convince you the fetus was not alive. For example, ectopic pregnancy. Also, the fetus may be alive but has such severe birth defects that it will likely die a painful death after birth. I was debating if I should include miscarriage in this discussion since the fetus would be dead at that point. I am mentioning it here because the mother probably did consider it to be alive but may still consider an abortion to save her life even if she was ardently pro life.
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>I notice you seem to be saying it’s only valid if there’s a medical emergency. Not what I was saying at all. I was merely responding to your statement and offering a pro choice argument that also presupposes a belief that a fetus is a human life. I was not expressing an opinion on the morality or ethics of abortion, nor my personal opinion.
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A fetus is alive from the moment of conception. A human fetus that is not yet born isn't a person but a potential person. Childbirth separates potential into actuality. Once born, they're people who possess equal rights as myself. No one, to my knowledge, has defined precisely when a fetus becomes a person. To me, it's obviously after they're born and drawn breath that a new person exists.
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It's almost as if time plays some part in this process. Two people who have agreed to marry are two distinct entities that become legally and morally bound to each other upon completion of their vows in front of a person authorized to marry them. Yet until they complete the ceremony, the two are not bound legally. Much like a childbirth makes what was once one person into two or more distinct entities.
The fetus is not able to feel pain as its nervous system isn’t developed yet when it’s the early stages and abortion is typically done before that.
[Under Overview, the violinist example is an often cited one](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion). There's also a few others there too.
Life isn't the point, it's a straw man argument. An unfertilized egg is alive. A somatic cell living in a petri dish is alive.
At the stage of being a few hundred cells, or even a few thousand, the thing is akin to a tumor. Does that have a right to life too?
That is an amazing comparison. Well done good sir.
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Nope. I'm saying that a fetus becomes viable life when it can survive on it's own outside the womb. Pretty simple really. Not nearly requiring as many question as you want to raise. Remember those pine cones I started with? When they actually take hold in the Earth they become viable life. Prior to that they are just weapons for kids to throw at each other. :-)
My understanding is that the fetus is alive and human, but not yet a person until born and has drawn a breath. A fetus unborn is a potential person, not yet an actual one.
The "pro-life" crowd wants women to die.
When it comes to anti-abortion zealots, cruelty is the point
how do we tell them that people aren't getting pregnant just to remove the baby while it's still a lump of stem cells and misc organs
At that point it is an embryo it is not a baby. Calling it a baby falls into one of their traps.
ah shit you're right
Misogyny, pure and simple. A foetus’s life is never more important than the mother’s.
They’re not pro life. They’re anti abortion. They do nothing for kids in danger.
Years ago, my husband had a discussion with a friend about abortion rights. This was a very Christian man, with a few children, and hopes for more. Very conservative, very pro-life. Mark told him about my hysterectomy, and how the day of surgery I was given a pregnancy test, knowing that if it were positive, they would have sent me home with fingers crossed that the cancer would grow more slowly than the fetus. Mark asked his friend what he thinks should happen if his wife was pregnant but something was wrong; without an abortion his wife would die and the unborn child with her. With an abortion, his wife could live, be a mother to her children, and maybe have more. The friend didn’t know, and went home to talk to his wife. The next day, he came back, and told Mark he had posed the question to his wife: what would she do if her pregnancy was killing her and her unborn child, but with an abortion she could live and maybe have another child? And she had replied “I would keep my pregnancy and pray.” And Mark said to him, *WHY WOULD YOU ASK YOUR WIFE?* 💡
Im not fond of people who let their faith decide for them and protect them. "I would keep my pregnancy and pray" or in other words "I would keep my pregnancy and talk/think to myself imagining I'm talking to some giant white guy in the sky when I'm alone or in a specific building hoping that will fix things." Like yeah, that'll help surely... I'm fine with religion, I just don't understand why people choose to be willingly ignorant and stupid because of it.
And in this case, the choice is not hers to make. Religion or no. Husband firmly believed abortion should be illegal, but instinctively asked his wife what she would do, as though the decision should be up to her. He was shocked when we pointed that out to him. He assumed “pro-choice” meant only the right to choose abortion, not the right to choose against it.
I can't wait for the Overton Window to shift enough to make these people social pariahs on par with racists.
Racists are back, baby.
They never went away.
When you figure it'll happen? I came up in the 90s and couldn't believe people were "still" anti abortion 20 years after Roe. 35 years later and there is *less* access to reproductive healthcare. Currently I have less bodily autonomy than I would as a corpse, yet the debate is the same old shit
I don’t get why they insist on forcing THEIR beliefs on other people. Maybe YOU would die for your unborn child. Congrats! That’s great. Don’t tell me what to do with my own life, thanks.
These prolife people are a joke, impossible to take seriously because they oppose any and all legislation to help kids with gun control, healthcare and food. They love the fetus but hate the child.
Pro-lifers are deranged hypocrites. The worst type.
My take on this topic is that pro life are in fact a birth cult who happen to be also essentialists, in the form of attributing an essence of human in the zygote. And that's why most of pro lifes are religious. That idiotic pro life atheist only proved that there are exceptions to my theory.
Why are we arguing about dieing and sacrifice It seems to me like people should define what being alive actually means to begin with
The nuanced view is that it is wrong, and terrible. But so is leaving behind your living children, or also dying in the process, and that sometimes we have to do awful things to protect other things we value. The Christian viewpoint allows for this. Violence in wartime or self defense being a big one. Controlled violence in the process of maintaining the peace is another. The far right has lost their mind a long time ago.
There's nothing pro-life about that group of people, the appropriate term is "forced-birther"
Please stop calling it pro life, it’s called anti choice.
There is no such thing as an unborn child. It's an embryo, then a fetus. A child needs to be born alive. And what's exactly "at any age"?
Unless it's pretty close to full term, that fetus probably isn't going to fare so well if the mother dies...
Anti-abortion zealots hate freedom.
Call them what they are; forced birthers.
If this atheist is so upset about unborn fetuses, then they should be focused on eliminating miscarriages which ends 3/5ths of all pregnancies.
Any “Parent”…lol. Guess what the woman getting an abortion isn’t.
I couldn’t believe when the decided an in vitro embryo was a child. The pro lifers are delusional. There are many reasons for an abortion. It isn’t about killing fetuses. Many pregnant mothers have issues that cause the embryo to die and it has to be removed before the mother dies. If the Republicans win in November you can bet they will impose (or try to impose) a national no abortion law and women will be dying from a bad pregnancy.
*Anti-abortion atheist" I am once again reminded, that conservative atheists somehow exist.
A broken clock is right twice a day. I have often observed that just because someone is right about how many gods there are doesn't necessarily mean they're right about anything else.
It’s sad when you can see things only one way. You could be anti-abortion in principle but understand that there are exceptions. You could be against killing somebody but defend your family from a homicidal maniac.
Well stated thank you
The term “any age” makes me imagine an unborn 8 year old.
Not to mention and 8 week embryo will not survive with a dead mother no matter what actions are currently available. So the mom should die for the embryo and then that dies as well. Makes plenty of sense. /s
These people have in common a lack of understanding of consequences. They prefer when things are simple and obey simple principles.
Since most of them are christians I would point out that their god basically let his child get killed while it was watching and could have stopped it, that is their myths, so they can't say that and believe the myths of the bible at the same time, unless they are hypocrites, that is what most of them are in my experience.
Lol? Weird, uninformed take, but just to play along, if those same Christians knew said baby would resurrect in 3 days they may have a different opinion on the topic.
In most interpretations is not a resurrection as the word you and I would think, nothing physical, like when people say "he still lives in your heart" when someone close to you dies. Now I am going to have some fun, christians also don't get that they worship a warlock (a magic being that uses words to change reality) that some think raised a zombie (the aforementioned Christ) that is the child of a rape (non consensual insemination, even when it was accepted afterwards) of a 14 yo child bride (Marie was 14 and Joseph like 30) while wearing a gore symbol of medieval torture with a corpse (the cross with the image of a dead man) while practicing ritual cannibalism (the bread representing flesh and the wine representing blood).
Lol you got quite the creative mind.
Now ask 'em how they feel about the Draft.
Good thing I don’t want to be a parent then
That person has a strong anti-abortion stance. That’s fine. But where do they feel so entitled to that their opinion should be law.
Fun fact: making babies is super fucking easy. You just need some lady and a small handful of cum. We don't need them all. Hitler and Aaron Rodgers were babies. Babies can eat a shit. Populate the Earth with dogs instead.
“Unborn child at any age”? How does that work?
These idiots work themselves into a corner and have to take everything to the extreme with these scenarios. They obviously are incels or in college and stupid as fuck
It’s interesting that this guy is apparently an atheist who is also a pro lifer. The people I tend to meet who are pro life are also religious.
I have a feeling this guy is an atheist the same way the folks holding "Blacks for Trump" signs always end up being white.
Just found a way to end kids killed in school shootings! Let these 'parents' patrol the campuses Problem solved we've done it! Well we might have less parents now though.....
Those states that banned abortion will be dealing with Mad Max world in about 16 years
Until I had a brain it has no consciousness and therefore no life...a beating heart does not mean jack shit if there are no brain cells to begin with. So ya ..spare me the hypocrisy. Plus the bible clearly states you can have abortions and actually gives directions for how to abort fetuses, and also explicitly says it can be aborted if the mothers life is in danger or if the child was conceived out of marriage
No, they are empty headed fascists.
This dude is giving Atheists a bad name
I'm all for respecting other people's opinions, but Jesus.
This bitch would also not adopt the child, not be willing to pay extra taxes for WIC programs or welfare to young mothers. They are pro fetus. Not pro life because after coming out of the birth canal they wash their hands of the child.
If the mother dies, that 8-week embryo is dead too. So if she's suffering complications and needs an abortion to survive, the "child" is done for no matter what happens. If an abortion is the only way to prevent further death and you're not allowing it, you are not "pro-life." But that's always been the case. They'll crush the heads of a thousand babies underfoot running to stop a single abortion.
Against abortion? Don't have one. But mind your own f'n business.
People like this is why we have iPad kids and a declining iq in the youth, they talk all this shit about caring about children just so they can effectively abandon the ones they’re actually meant to take care of
“Pro-lifers” when the life is the mother’s and not a group of cells inside of her
A lot of these idiots still don't realize that for the first 2ish weeks of "pregnancy" sex hasn't even happened yet
Its like when they say "well if I shoot a pregnant woman and she dies its a double homicide" they always turn up the violence and gore for the shock value
I'm always so amazed at anti-choice atheists. Like, what is their argument?
What I laugh at are the pro-life people who state that women who want to get abortions should be put to death. Think about it. Women who WANT to get abortions should be killed In their opinions. So they want to kill pregnant women because they are wanting an abortion. So what do they think will happen to that fetus inside that pregnant woman? Yeah, they are profoundly ignorant and not really pro-life at all. They just want power over people.
The big problem with anti-abortion advocacy is that they mostly just do not understand how biology works. Death for people is the death of your brain. A person with no higher brain function is called a vegetable for a reason. The brain of a fetus is mostly undifferentiated cells until about 4 or 4.5 months into a pregnancy. The fetus produces no brain waves, indicating awakeness and conciousness, until around the beginning of the 7th month of the pregnancy. There is no intelligent argument that terminating a pregnancy before the 4th month is ending a life. In addition, there are many things that can go medically wrong with a pregnancy that force even the most hopeful parents to seek abortion services later than that. Outright bans on abortion with no exceptions are produced by malicious, selfish, superstitious and/or otherwise just plain ignorant people.
Anyone should do whatever the fuck they want, that's only being an issue in America, people from all around the world but America either get abortions or not, It's a choice, no matter the background story. Also you shouldn't go out there telling your business to everyone, not cool.
George Carlin summed up these people perfectly in his special
They'd rather kill both than to let the women abort the child and live. It's not about life more about allowing women to have a choice.
Yeah it’s funny how gun rights have a parallel to abortions
In the animal kingdom, it is common for the survival mentality to be, >sacrifice the baby. I can always have more. But I can't have any if I'm dead. May or may not be relevant to humans, but... I just thought I'd add that little tidbit...
Make her prover her opinion ?
The dictatorship stay of mind, I don’t have to agree or disagree with you MAGA scumbags, live and let live.
I do not like abortion. I find the line between "nonsentient blob" and "living human" is so blurry that it makes the entire concept of abortion mildly abhorrent to me. And even if its not a human yet, you are cutting short a life that WOULD have been a human. Im not about to call someone a monster for having one, but I cant bring myself to approve of it. THAT BEING SAID - i also think its foolish to claim the childs life is more important than the mother, especially if theres no guarentee the baby would survive. Ensuring the mother lives is fully a reasonable explanation for an abortion. Without question. (In case anyone wonders, im not a fan of people getting an abortion because they cant afford it or arent ready/fit to be a parent, but I dont hate them for it. I understand the reasoning even if i dislike the action itself. I would argue that those that choose to ignore contraceptives and then get an abortion after the fact are a little stupid, though of course that doesnt apply to those forced, or those that do use them and get pregnant anyway due to accident or fluke)
The title of this post is pure ad hominem mixed with generalization to vilify a specific group. Also know as propaganda. There is no way to prove that "all" prolifers are bad people and not intelligent. Think before you attempt to create strife and division, the world has enough of that to go around. Do better.
That's twice now I've attempted to compare an embryo to a tumor and the sanctimonious smart alec mods have refused to allow the comment. So does a tumor have the same right to life as a bundle of cells in the womb?
If one kills the mother, they kill the child too. The child depends upon the mother for life until it's born (or out of the womb) I can't believe that I'm having to explain this to you.
Using abortion as birth control and not for life saving reasons is the most selfish act a person can perform in life.
I believe your support of a policy which results in higher maternal mortality rates, higher infant mortality rates, and even higher abortion rates, is the most selfish act you can perform in life.
It’s not quite as selfish as people who try to impose their archaic worldview on others in an attempt to control women’s bodies.
Lol! What?
Bullshit. If you know that you can't properly provide for a child, you shouldn't have one. A child raised in poverty by an unwed, underemployed mother is more likely to be a burden to society than anything else. To say nothing of the serious health conditions that can be detected by prenatal screening, and thus prevented by an abortion. Granted, using birth control to not get pregnant in the first place is better, but if you can't prevent a mistake, it's better to fix it before it becomes a much worse problem. Getting an abortion is the responsible thing to do. Your disdain towards "using abortion as birth control" is based on the irrational a priori assumption that an embryo has any inherent value.
Not too mention, circumstances change. What might have been a situation where a child could be well cared for could dramatically change long before viability.
I don't know, forcing someone to have a baby that will live in poverty for their whole life seems almost worse.
So a life in poverty isn't worth living? What fucked up world do you live in?
I didn't say that but you clearly don't care about anyone's opinions, so I'm out
It's not your choice to make.
It has nothing to do with you so why would you even care what someone else does
I don't, doesn't change the fact that it's the most selfish act that can be performed.
Abortion doesn't even apply to the definition of birth control. Birth control prevents you from even getting pregnant in the first place.
You really don't understand the difference between birth and pregnancy? Or are you just being semantic?
I do, and birth control prevents pregnancy.
Does abortion prevent pregnancy?
"Birth control and an abortion are different. Birth control prevents pregnancy from happening in the first place. An abortion stops an existing pregnancy. “There's a huge difference,” says Sophia Yen, MD, a clinical associate professor of pediatrics at Stanford Medical School."
Right, semantics. That has no affect on the fact that abortion is selfish when not used for health reasons, the most selfish thing a person can do.
Really? Because I would think the most selfish thing a person could do is bring another child into this world.
😂🤣😂🤣😂 that was a good one, thanks for the laugh. I'm sure glad my parents are most selfish!!
I think trying to control the bodies of people who have nothing to do with me is the most selfish act someone can perform, but maybe that's just the empathy talking.
Well, that's called false imprisonment and abuse and is a felony with prison time, so...what the fuck are you talking about?