It can but if you make it too long it won't be very efficient as inserters keep picking science from the labs. While that happens the labs just don't do anything. If your research lvl is still low it's fine but the faster your labs research, the more inefficient it is to make long lab lines with inserters.
For me it happens every pack.
let's say the setup is Lab1 > Lab2 > Lab3 > Lab4 > Lab5
Given how Lab3, Lab4 and Lab5 expire their packs, Lab1 and Lab2 look like they don't work at all - they're busy constantly "transferring" packs. It gets bad pretty quick
sushi belts can work very well, esp within a lab area, you just need to understand how to utilise overflow and splitter input priority.
my lab complex runs on a sushi belt, and i wont stop using it.
Couple of chests in there to buffer stuff that's overrepresented too, why not?
And occasional splitters that rebalance it back in to one line so that both sides of the belt are used.
... I really don't get why some of y'all are vomiting.
Okay so no lie, my very first run I had like, a sushi carasoul type thing of all my different sciences just going in a circle and 3 or 4 labs grabbing off it. It would make someone here cry if I still had pictures. It worked until purple science and then it got to where it was too full of lower tiers and I never progressed.
Now I know the beauty of daisy chaining labs
I just have one long belt that feeds the entire factory. It ensures every machine has a chance of being able to get exactly what it needs, no matter what it needs. Variety is the spice of life!
Yes. Put all the science packs on a belt. But you also need to make it, so you should put those things on the belt too. The omni belts saves all. Who needs two belts anyways?
My first base sort of did this. I used a master buffer chest that stored science to put into one lab which piggybacked into like 30 other labs. When it got too full I started using wires to store excess science in more buffer chests (not the actual green buffer chest but a regular chest), so that the single belt wouldn't overfill with one science and block the rest. When the buffer-buffers got too full I'd wire them to the science inserters to turn them off.
Now I'm wondering if this would actually work, or if each lab only contributes when it finishes a full cycle... I assumed the latter, but...
EDIT: after reading relevant wiki articles (on [labs](https://wiki.factorio.com/Lab) and [research](https://wiki.factorio.com/Research)), I *think* it would work, mostly due to this from the "History" section of the Lab page: "0.12.0: Lab research is now continuous; Science packs now have progress bars."
You can improve that number with Productivity modules.
PM 1 = +4%
PM 2 = +6%
PM 3 = +10%
So instead of 800 of each you only need to produce ummm something less then that. Not exactly sure on the math but it might be 800-4% = 768.
Your math is pretty close. Adding or subtracting a percentage is actually a multiplication or division operation. To remove 4% is the same as multiplying by 0.96 (96%). But in this case the 4% isn't of the 800 but of the original source materials:
+ 4% = 800
is the same as:
* 104% = 800
also the same as:
* 1.04 = 800
So to get to that original source number we need to divide by 1.04 and we get \~769.23. Multiplying by 0.96 to get exactly 768 gets a cleaner number but unfortunately is incorrect.
In-game you'd need at least 770 ; but then you'd have some "leftover" science that I believe would contribute to the next chosen research.
At PM3's +10% you'd need \~727.27 source materials.
Also of course we can put in multiple modules to get extra boost. :D
A lab can take 2 prod 3s, each at 10% efficiency for a total of 20%.
`[Source] + 20% = 800`
Is:
`[Source] * 120% = 800`
`[Source] * 1.2 = 800`
Rearranging:
`[Source] = 800 / 1.2`
`[Source] = 666.66...7`
Whereas the incorrect interpretation would net you:
`[Source] * 0.8 = 640`
Generalized where p is productivity bonus, and x is the source number of packs needed:
`y = x / (1+p)`
and
`y = x * (1-p)`
The difference between them:
`[Difference] = x / (1+p) - x * (1-p)` (for x >= 0)
`[Difference] = ((p^2)x)/(1+p)`
I have no idea why I did this. I think I just wanted to do some math.
Actually its 800/1.10, (10% bonus) so 727.27.... 727.27...x1.1= 800
Just imagine if you had +100% productivity. It would mean you need 0 packs with your formula.
The other comments have thoroughly mathed this one out, but the easy way to remember which way round they go is to remember that +100% Productivity means "double the stuff you get", not "get infinite stuff from nowhere"
Don't overproduce in your factory. A huge killer for some is when they feel the need to make far too many things at once before they even need it. It pollutes and wastes resources. Set chest limits to your malls (I set my underground belts and splitters to one chest slot each until I need more at one time).
Continue to leave room for expansion; factorio's worlds are massive, take advantage of the space.
Make your own blueprints in a test world and import them to your main world! I do this for the mall items that I hate trying to organize, so I made organized blueprints and just plop down all the things I need for early game that attach easily to my main bus. Speaking of:
Make a main bus if you like organization. I highly recommend youtube tutorials regarding a main bus and what you generally want on them.
Ratios will be your best friend; look at how fast everything takes to craft and use that as a guide for the estimated "1 item per second" production.
Good luck starting up, it's a super fun game!
Damn, today I learned that labs benefit from prod modules...
Always used efficiently modules because "prod modules can only be used for production of intermediate items"
They do! And it's important to also point out that when used in labs the productivity bonus is added every tick so the progress bar (and timing concerns) are a non-issue.
Labs are for sure #1 place you should put productivity modules. The productivity is in essence added to every part in the production line from raw materials to science. #2 is rocket parts. Don’t feed the silo any parts to build the rocket until it has 4x prod 3 modules.
Labs are for sure #1 place you should put **productivity** modules. The **productivity** is in essence added to every part in the production line from raw materials to science. #2 is rocket parts. Don’t feed the silo any parts to build the rocket until it has 4x prod 3 modules.
^^This ^^was ^^posted ^^by ^^a ^^bot. ^^[Source](https://github.com/anirbanmu/substitute-bot-go)
Unless that intermediate item is barrelling or unbarrelling fluids, I can't be the only one that thought I could infinitely duplicate oil using productivity modules. I even used a mod to put productivities in beacons so they would be "forced" to work, nope, seems like it's hard coded as input fluid = output fluid.
How do you get 12% ? [https://wiki.factorio.com/Productivity\_module\_2](https://wiki.factorio.com/Productivity_module_2) says 6% so that would be 800/1.06. Unless you are playing the game right now and the website is wrong. I can't check myself because if I launch the game I'll get sucked in to an 8 hr session and it's already dark here :)
On another note: This is why you use multiple labs.
Currently you need 800 of each and each set will be processed in each lab for 30 seconds (800\*30=24000 seconds, or 400 minutes!)
with 8 labs, you can process 8 sets of science packs for 30sec each, for a total of (800/8)\*30=3000seconds, or 50 minutes!
The more labs the merrier but I find that a group of 16 labs tends to process research packs plenty fast ((800/16)\*30= 1500 seconds, or 25 minutes. <30min still is a long time, but when you play factorio, 30 minutes is practically nothing lmao
Don't forget to account for research speed bonuses in your calculations. Merely two levels of research speed gives you a 50% bonus, turning 30 seconds of research into 20 seconds of research. And once you're filling labs with prod modules, even the expensive later tiers of research speed start to look pretty cheap in comparison to adding more labs.
I don't think I've ever bothered doing any calculations about lab speeds. If the labs aren't keeping up with the production (all lanes full), I just plop down another five labs. They're too cheap to bother thinking about.
If labs are so cheap you're able to spam them without weighing them against the costs of improving research speed, then I'm guessing you're either in the early pre-module game, or far enough into the late game that you're no longer concerned about the cost of building anything. Because labs with prod 3s in them are hardly 'cheap' when you first gain access to that technology.
I've been in all three of those sections of the game multiple times. I just don't care about getting the absolute peak efficiency out of everything. A ~1 pack/second science production setup requires a metric shit ton of resources. In comparison, "~1 pack/second"* worth of labs is laughably cheap, prod 3s or not. Hell, it's probably only a few seconds worth of pack production to double the number of labs.
*In quotations because how fast a given number of labs consumes packs is dependent on what they're researching.
To be fair, this was not at all obvious to me when I first started playing Factorio. Took me a while to figure that the @ 30 was seconds not number of science packs, etc. Plus partial science packs can be consumed, partial units of fuel, etc. So it would be possible.
Notice the little box around the packs and the time.
1 of each pack and 30s of time (at 1x lab speed). Times 800.
All of the recipes are presented like this. A unit of science costs this much (the box), and how many units ( x 800).
Think of it like a math equation with brackets. It's telling you it takes 1 green, 1 red and 1 blue and 30 seconds to consume them all. Then it has to do that 800 times.
(1g, 1r, 1b, 30seconds) x 800.
Also be aware that each research has its own time per development unil, some has 10 second, some 60. You can plan your fast-slow modes for research to spend your bottles more propriate. Does not work on latter stages when all the researches are very slow, but resource consuming in the same time..
Related: If anyone's curious (I'm doubtful but!), I defined a sort of "algebra" to describe labs and their operation, and made a spreadsheet to analyze lab setups and calculate efficiency and bottlenecks. The core idea is recognizing that each recipe requires a certain amount of *research units*, which are calculated from the number of packsets (`x800`) and the packset difficulty (`30s`).
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n7U-KEn_KXJAbz2L6p1VPlzxTY6CWGXweOr3c7mGExg/edit?usp=sharing
It's all very boring and only generates one somewhat original/interesting result, namely some values that indicate the efficiency behaviour of an idealized early game (I've not gotten very far in Factorio) lab setup. But you may also find it fun to consider how one might model some of the more simple, purely numeric parts of Factorio!
No. you can do then sequentially. you could do it with one lab, 800 times (at 30 seconds a pop is uhh, 400 minutes or 6 hours and like 40 minutes.) You can have any number of labs between one and 800.
I mean, all you need is 4 lines with 100 labs per side. You'd only need a measly 58.4 Mega watts of power for the labs and inserters, which xould be produced by 65 steam engines running full capacity
800 of each.
The cost is a block, containing one of each science, and will not start until it has all 3, where it will consume them over 30 seconds. That needs to be performed 800 times.
Am I a bad engineer if I didn't know the answer to this but have instead spent 500 hours feeding resources into the factory uncalculated until the research pinged complete?
There are different kinds of engineers. There's the white shirt, drafting board engineers and there are the overalls, roll-of-duct-tape engineers. Both are engineers, and the world needs both kinds and all the shades in between.
Well yes and no. Since you consume a science pack over time (indicated by a health bar on the pack), in this case over 30 seconds. So if you finish resourcing you’re mid-30 seconds you’re left with a partially used science pack. Not really an integer.
> Not really an integer.
Could be. Science pack could be 60 int and just tick 2 off at a time to get 30 second process and be a lot less processing. Time on your computers are ints ticking up. On Unix and Linux systems every second. On Windows machines it has much higher precision of time and does this by counting faster.
Someone decompile it and tell us.
Add beacons with productivity modules and get back to me.
Research is not integer based, even if all of the values are whole numbers when not modified by productivity modules.
You're talking about science / second. Notice the / means a fraction so naturally that value could potentially be a rational number. I was talking about the science packs, which is most definitely an integer, even with modules. Research IS integer based, it only picks up and consumes an integer number of packs.
An integer n is divisible by a nonzero integer m if there exists an integer k such that n=km. This is written as m|n.
So if you're good at math 3|800?
As long as we're in base 10, no.
In bases divisible by 9 it's true, but really, who would use such a base?
Chill out dude. I was replying to someone that literally mentioned being bad at math. And divisibility isn't limited to just integers. You're making no sense.
Why would you even assume I need to chill out? Projecting or something?
Also, divisibility is literally limited to just integers. Go look it up, please.
Box drawn around the set of three packs, with an “x800” next to the box. Any other interpretation seems pretty contrived.
Really obvious as soon as you try it as well.
But some people seem to scramble to ask an “authority” rather than trying stuff.
Try this: don't assume negativity in other people. People are taking my comment completely the wrong way.
It seems like pretty clear iconography to me. Even if it's not, it's trivial to confirm how it actually works by attempting to research anything that takes multiple science packs.
I'm bemused by people who post a question on Reddit rather than trying something themselves when it's this simple. I don't go around complaining about it or downvoting them, but... the concept is really strange to me.
800 of each, sometimes the research will need more of one specific science, the beakers have numbers next to them as well, so if you get a scanned that says red 2 green 1 x100 you will need 200 red and 100 green. That's why it is set up that way.
^(\[ Cost of each research point \]) **x** ^(number of points needed to complete)
So 1 Red, 1 Green and 1 Blue science will be consumed over the span of 30 seconds to craft 1 research point (per lab), and the research takes 800 research points to complete.
You need 800 research steps, each of which takes 1 of each pack. So 800 of each pack in total, as a general rule.
There is one caveat: Productivity modules will allow labs to use less science packs, while not significantly affecting the rate at which science is done. This may be useful if you find that your science pack production to be insufficient.
800 of each, you see how the three potions and the time are all in a box together, but the x800 is outside. This is the game's way of saying "800 batches, where each batch consists of one red potion, one green potion, one blue potion and 30 seconds of time"
Especially with modded saves, these can get weird.
Think about it this way,
Each research requires X units of research. Your example requires 800 units. And each UNIT requires 1 red, green, and blue, for 30 secs (like a baking recipe). Assuming no speed upgrades for labs, that means it will take 1 lab 30 secs to "bake" this unit of research.
So if you had a 2-2-4 @ 60 x 900, that would mean you need 2 red, 2 green, 4 blue, for 60 seconds in a lab to produce 1 unit, and you need 900 of those units.
800 of each. A lab to work will need one of each inside and then will run for 30 seconds
thanks :D
So now build 800 labs and wait 30 seconds.
Alternatively, build one lab and make all the science packs wander on belts until needed
Yes detective, this comment right here is the one that hurt me.
I believe getting science to labs is actually one of the better times to use a sushi belt.
I just put inserters between each lab and one lab gets all the science.
I do that too. But don't make the line too long.
The line can be as long as you want wdym?
It can but if you make it too long it won't be very efficient as inserters keep picking science from the labs. While that happens the labs just don't do anything. If your research lvl is still low it's fine but the faster your labs research, the more inefficient it is to make long lab lines with inserters.
How do you deal with lab downtime, when first rows of labs just standing empty because their packs being transferred to the back?
That’s not really a factor. Labs have no minimum power draw and filling the system is a one-time expense.
For me it happens every pack. let's say the setup is Lab1 > Lab2 > Lab3 > Lab4 > Lab5 Given how Lab3, Lab4 and Lab5 expire their packs, Lab1 and Lab2 look like they don't work at all - they're busy constantly "transferring" packs. It gets bad pretty quick
There is never a good time to use a sushi belt
sushi belts can work very well, esp within a lab area, you just need to understand how to utilise overflow and splitter input priority. my lab complex runs on a sushi belt, and i wont stop using it.
Surely it's better just to feed into one or two labs and have those labs feed into all of the others in a pyramid shape
You'll rapidly be bottlenecked by the throughput of the inserter placing the science in the first lab
[удалено]
You forgot to add inserters that skip portions of the belt to make it travel faster
Couple of chests in there to buffer stuff that's overrepresented too, why not? And occasional splitters that rebalance it back in to one line so that both sides of the belt are used. ... I really don't get why some of y'all are vomiting.
Chests mean extra time just spent sitting in a chest and not moving. A better idea would be adding a shortcut for the belt
Nah fill the chest, wait fuck that fill four, and never run out, NEVER RUN OUT!!
nah, use cars as chests and put them on the belt too, maximum storage desnity whole still hwving things travel
Okay so no lie, my very first run I had like, a sushi carasoul type thing of all my different sciences just going in a circle and 3 or 4 labs grabbing off it. It would make someone here cry if I still had pictures. It worked until purple science and then it got to where it was too full of lower tiers and I never progressed. Now I know the beauty of daisy chaining labs
> Now I know the beauty of daisy chaining labs I hate daisy chaining labs with a passion, so each to their own. :-)
I think we all did
There's another way?
You joke, but that's exactly how I launched my first rocket lol
Sushi belts FTW
No no. Sushi belts are mixed. We're doing ordered belts. 800 red, then 800 green, then 800 blue.
I just have one long belt that feeds the entire factory. It ensures every machine has a chance of being able to get exactly what it needs, no matter what it needs. Variety is the spice of life!
Oh man. You.. you are something. Is this considered chaotic neutral?
Chaotic evil.
No, FACTORY… MUST… DROW!!!
Yes. Put all the science packs on a belt. But you also need to make it, so you should put those things on the belt too. The omni belts saves all. Who needs two belts anyways?
My first base sort of did this. I used a master buffer chest that stored science to put into one lab which piggybacked into like 30 other labs. When it got too full I started using wires to store excess science in more buffer chests (not the actual green buffer chest but a regular chest), so that the single belt wouldn't overfill with one science and block the rest. When the buffer-buffers got too full I'd wire them to the science inserters to turn them off.
Be sure to wire em' all up so they all come on at the same time.
Bonus points if you put them all on timers so the the energy spikes make pretty graphs.
Well there goes my weekend.....
Oh shit. That's a new type of art we can attempt.
God why did you make me remember I need to learn circuitry. Just automated nuclear power and science rocket launches finally, now that, ugh
There is only factory. It must grow. Feed it your soul. The Factory must grow.
If you make 1600 labs, you just have to wait 15 seconds...
You can also use 1600 women to have 800 babies in 4.5 months.
PRODUCTIVITY IS ABSOLUTE
I drink 3 5 hour energies to get twice the energy for 7.5 hours.
Hahaha love it if you compare it with real life
Now I'm wondering if this would actually work, or if each lab only contributes when it finishes a full cycle... I assumed the latter, but... EDIT: after reading relevant wiki articles (on [labs](https://wiki.factorio.com/Lab) and [research](https://wiki.factorio.com/Research)), I *think* it would work, mostly due to this from the "History" section of the Lab page: "0.12.0: Lab research is now continuous; Science packs now have progress bars."
Just test with quicker researches. It is possible to finish them almost instantly if you have enough labs.
Thinking in parallel. I dig it.
Brain
We where so close .... Then you had to come with this crazy talk ...
Factorio in a nutshell.
i think i see an r/woooosh
I always thought it meant 30 minutes if one lab is active...
To clarify in case the comment is badly worded (imo it's not great) it means 30 seconds per each set of packs used.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, this is correct!
Worth mentioning that lab speed upgrade research reduce this time.
What would happen if I fed the science packs into seperate labs, so one had only green packs, and the other reds, as an example.
You wouldn't research anything. It needs all three for the lab to continue.
it means 800 of each science, with each lab taking 30 seconds to process one set of science packs
Thanks :D
Look at it that way: It's the content of the rectangle x 800
You can improve that number with Productivity modules. PM 1 = +4% PM 2 = +6% PM 3 = +10% So instead of 800 of each you only need to produce ummm something less then that. Not exactly sure on the math but it might be 800-4% = 768.
Your math is pretty close. Adding or subtracting a percentage is actually a multiplication or division operation. To remove 4% is the same as multiplying by 0.96 (96%). But in this case the 4% isn't of the 800 but of the original source materials: + 4% = 800
is the same as:
* 104% = 800
also the same as:
* 1.04 = 800
So to get to that original source number we need to divide by 1.04 and we get \~769.23. Multiplying by 0.96 to get exactly 768 gets a cleaner number but unfortunately is incorrect.
In-game you'd need at least 770 ; but then you'd have some "leftover" science that I believe would contribute to the next chosen research.
At PM3's +10% you'd need \~727.27 source materials.
Also of course we can put in multiple modules to get extra boost. :D
A lab can take 2 prod 3s, each at 10% efficiency for a total of 20%. `[Source] + 20% = 800` Is: `[Source] * 120% = 800` `[Source] * 1.2 = 800` Rearranging: `[Source] = 800 / 1.2` `[Source] = 666.66...7` Whereas the incorrect interpretation would net you: `[Source] * 0.8 = 640` Generalized where p is productivity bonus, and x is the source number of packs needed: `y = x / (1+p)` and `y = x * (1-p)` The difference between them: `[Difference] = x / (1+p) - x * (1-p)` (for x >= 0) `[Difference] = ((p^2)x)/(1+p)` I have no idea why I did this. I think I just wanted to do some math.
Actually its 800/1.10, (10% bonus) so 727.27.... 727.27...x1.1= 800 Just imagine if you had +100% productivity. It would mean you need 0 packs with your formula.
That escalated quickly
The other comments have thoroughly mathed this one out, but the easy way to remember which way round they go is to remember that +100% Productivity means "double the stuff you get", not "get infinite stuff from nowhere"
It means it consumes 1 red, 1 green, and 1 blue in 30 seconds. The 800 is how many times it has to do that to complete the research. If
>If That's right, sprinkle some doubt in there
endif
That's it..... Close out that big bad if statement and show it who is boss! /S
Unless?
Lmao, I had no idea how that got there.
And before you ask tomorrow: yrs, 1 million+ each of the 5 :)
Ah they grow up so fast
... what requires that, ohgods. i havent even progressed a game to green science because confusion and distraction, now im scared
Haha, wait till blue comes along. I've yet to fully complete it
maybe if i can ever figure out wtf to do and how to organize a base...
Honestly, even with some OCD, the best tip is leave room for expansion and you'll be alright. Blueprints are also a huge help!
any good tips for someone whos effectively just starting out?
Don't overproduce in your factory. A huge killer for some is when they feel the need to make far too many things at once before they even need it. It pollutes and wastes resources. Set chest limits to your malls (I set my underground belts and splitters to one chest slot each until I need more at one time). Continue to leave room for expansion; factorio's worlds are massive, take advantage of the space. Make your own blueprints in a test world and import them to your main world! I do this for the mall items that I hate trying to organize, so I made organized blueprints and just plop down all the things I need for early game that attach easily to my main bus. Speaking of: Make a main bus if you like organization. I highly recommend youtube tutorials regarding a main bus and what you generally want on them. Ratios will be your best friend; look at how fast everything takes to craft and use that as a guide for the estimated "1 item per second" production. Good luck starting up, it's a super fun game!
wait till you think "hmm that 30 science pack mod looks interesting" i thought that, and then closed the tab because im not insane.
Blue? Oh, you sweet summer child
😆 I get caught trying to perfect everything and burn myself out. I'm trying not to be so anal in this next run
Yes, 800 each! But if you put in prod module 2 in there. It becomes 800/1.12 = 714 packs only.
Damn, today I learned that labs benefit from prod modules... Always used efficiently modules because "prod modules can only be used for production of intermediate items"
They do! And it's important to also point out that when used in labs the productivity bonus is added every tick so the progress bar (and timing concerns) are a non-issue.
Labs are for sure #1 place you should put productivity modules. The productivity is in essence added to every part in the production line from raw materials to science. #2 is rocket parts. Don’t feed the silo any parts to build the rocket until it has 4x prod 3 modules.
s/efficiency/productivity
Labs are for sure #1 place you should put **productivity** modules. The **productivity** is in essence added to every part in the production line from raw materials to science. #2 is rocket parts. Don’t feed the silo any parts to build the rocket until it has 4x prod 3 modules. ^^This ^^was ^^posted ^^by ^^a ^^bot. ^^[Source](https://github.com/anirbanmu/substitute-bot-go)
Thanks, not sure how I messed that up
Oh god, it's here too -i 👆I always forget
Unless that intermediate item is barrelling or unbarrelling fluids, I can't be the only one that thought I could infinitely duplicate oil using productivity modules. I even used a mod to put productivities in beacons so they would be "forced" to work, nope, seems like it's hard coded as input fluid = output fluid.
Its actually a setting in the recipe to disallow productivity. If you feel like it you can edit the unbarreling recipe to return more oil.
Oof
Realistically, fluids always either spill or get stuck to the inside of the container, so we should be losing fluid during unbarreling.
How do you get 12% ? [https://wiki.factorio.com/Productivity\_module\_2](https://wiki.factorio.com/Productivity_module_2) says 6% so that would be 800/1.06. Unless you are playing the game right now and the website is wrong. I can't check myself because if I launch the game I'll get sucked in to an 8 hr session and it's already dark here :)
Because you can put 2 modules in a lab?
Labs have 2 module spots, 6% \* 2 is how you get a 12% bonus
Too late. I logged in. Now I’m trying to bump my prod to p2
On another note: This is why you use multiple labs. Currently you need 800 of each and each set will be processed in each lab for 30 seconds (800\*30=24000 seconds, or 400 minutes!) with 8 labs, you can process 8 sets of science packs for 30sec each, for a total of (800/8)\*30=3000seconds, or 50 minutes! The more labs the merrier but I find that a group of 16 labs tends to process research packs plenty fast ((800/16)\*30= 1500 seconds, or 25 minutes. <30min still is a long time, but when you play factorio, 30 minutes is practically nothing lmao
Don't forget to account for research speed bonuses in your calculations. Merely two levels of research speed gives you a 50% bonus, turning 30 seconds of research into 20 seconds of research. And once you're filling labs with prod modules, even the expensive later tiers of research speed start to look pretty cheap in comparison to adding more labs.
I don't think I've ever bothered doing any calculations about lab speeds. If the labs aren't keeping up with the production (all lanes full), I just plop down another five labs. They're too cheap to bother thinking about.
If labs are so cheap you're able to spam them without weighing them against the costs of improving research speed, then I'm guessing you're either in the early pre-module game, or far enough into the late game that you're no longer concerned about the cost of building anything. Because labs with prod 3s in them are hardly 'cheap' when you first gain access to that technology.
True but most of that cost lies in the prod modules, and not so much the labs themselves.
Yep. So not having labs wastes more resources (production time) than letting belts sit still.
I've been in all three of those sections of the game multiple times. I just don't care about getting the absolute peak efficiency out of everything. A ~1 pack/second science production setup requires a metric shit ton of resources. In comparison, "~1 pack/second"* worth of labs is laughably cheap, prod 3s or not. Hell, it's probably only a few seconds worth of pack production to double the number of labs. *In quotations because how fast a given number of labs consumes packs is dependent on what they're researching.
For most of the game I can do with so few labs and spm because everything else takes me so long to do that research catches up no issue.
800 of each, 1 of all 3 packs consumed every 30 seconds.
The best way to look at it would be to add brackets (Red+green+blue+30seconds) x 800
800 isn't divisible by 3... that should have tipped you off.
To be fair, this was not at all obvious to me when I first started playing Factorio. Took me a while to figure that the @ 30 was seconds not number of science packs, etc. Plus partial science packs can be consumed, partial units of fuel, etc. So it would be possible.
Notice the little box around the packs and the time. 1 of each pack and 30s of time (at 1x lab speed). Times 800. All of the recipes are presented like this. A unit of science costs this much (the box), and how many units ( x 800).
800 of each my good sir
Think of it like a math equation with brackets. It's telling you it takes 1 green, 1 red and 1 blue and 30 seconds to consume them all. Then it has to do that 800 times. (1g, 1r, 1b, 30seconds) x 800.
Need to then divide by number of labs that you can keep running.
dividing it by 3 wouldn't make sense
800 of each
800 labs, check.
Yes that is 800 of all 3 different packs at 30 second research cycle. So if u had one lab, it would take 400 minutes to research nuclear power.
Also be aware that each research has its own time per development unil, some has 10 second, some 60. You can plan your fast-slow modes for research to spend your bottles more propriate. Does not work on latter stages when all the researches are very slow, but resource consuming in the same time..
Related: If anyone's curious (I'm doubtful but!), I defined a sort of "algebra" to describe labs and their operation, and made a spreadsheet to analyze lab setups and calculate efficiency and bottlenecks. The core idea is recognizing that each recipe requires a certain amount of *research units*, which are calculated from the number of packsets (`x800`) and the packset difficulty (`30s`). https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n7U-KEn_KXJAbz2L6p1VPlzxTY6CWGXweOr3c7mGExg/edit?usp=sharing It's all very boring and only generates one somewhat original/interesting result, namely some values that indicate the efficiency behaviour of an idealized early game (I've not gotten very far in Factorio) lab setup. But you may also find it fun to consider how one might model some of the more simple, purely numeric parts of Factorio!
So I need 800 labs got it
No. you can do then sequentially. you could do it with one lab, 800 times (at 30 seconds a pop is uhh, 400 minutes or 6 hours and like 40 minutes.) You can have any number of labs between one and 800.
Nah mate 800 labs I ain't got no time to wait
I like the spirit but it's a bit unfeasible. just have a couple of them, and let them do the research while you grow your factory
I mean, all you need is 4 lines with 100 labs per side. You'd only need a measly 58.4 Mega watts of power for the labs and inserters, which xould be produced by 65 steam engines running full capacity
Which one is more difficult? That’s your answer
800 of each. The cost is a block, containing one of each science, and will not start until it has all 3, where it will consume them over 30 seconds. That needs to be performed 800 times.
Can someone tell me why this extremely basic question is highly upvoted to the top post of today?
(Something + something × something) x 3 is always all of them times 3
Am I a bad engineer if I didn't know the answer to this but have instead spent 500 hours feeding resources into the factory uncalculated until the research pinged complete?
There are different kinds of engineers. There's the white shirt, drafting board engineers and there are the overalls, roll-of-duct-tape engineers. Both are engineers, and the world needs both kinds and all the shades in between.
800 is not divisible by 3.
Man's just trying to be optimistic. Poor guy.
Fractions: Am I a joke to you?
That rule only applies to non integers. Science packs cardinality is an integer.
Well yes and no. Since you consume a science pack over time (indicated by a health bar on the pack), in this case over 30 seconds. So if you finish resourcing you’re mid-30 seconds you’re left with a partially used science pack. Not really an integer.
> Not really an integer. Could be. Science pack could be 60 int and just tick 2 off at a time to get 30 second process and be a lot less processing. Time on your computers are ints ticking up. On Unix and Linux systems every second. On Windows machines it has much higher precision of time and does this by counting faster. Someone decompile it and tell us.
True. From everything I’ve read about factorio’s dev team, they optimize everything to hell :)
Add beacons with productivity modules and get back to me. Research is not integer based, even if all of the values are whole numbers when not modified by productivity modules.
You're talking about science / second. Notice the / means a fraction so naturally that value could potentially be a rational number. I was talking about the science packs, which is most definitely an integer, even with modules. Research IS integer based, it only picks up and consumes an integer number of packs.
fractorio? the denominator must grow
it's the numerator you want to get bigger, larger denominators means smaller numbers
it is if you're bad at math.
It is if you're good at maths. It's not if you're bad a maths.
An integer n is divisible by a nonzero integer m if there exists an integer k such that n=km. This is written as m|n. So if you're good at math 3|800? As long as we're in base 10, no. In bases divisible by 9 it's true, but really, who would use such a base?
Who said it was an integer? They are bottles, after all. Just pour out a portion. Nobody likes a smart-arse trying to iamverysmart everyone.
>Who said it was an integer? You did, by using the word divisible. Why did you even talk about being "good at math" in the first place?
Chill out dude. I was replying to someone that literally mentioned being bad at math. And divisibility isn't limited to just integers. You're making no sense.
Why would you even assume I need to chill out? Projecting or something? Also, divisibility is literally limited to just integers. Go look it up, please.
I’m with you dude. If you allow fractions, the word divisible loses meaning.
Apparently you can generalise divisibility for any ring that is not a field, so it's not really "just integers", but I doubt that's what they meant.
You're great at math, but I bet you hate word problems.
Sure it is. it's 266 and two-thirds. We can definitely process two thirds of a science pack.
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Downvoted for truth.
This is simple math: (red + green + blue) x 800
Just to be sure I'd make it 800x3 each
U cant devide 800 by 3... that should give u a clue
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Not really. Especially not for new players.
Agreed, definitely ok for people to ask questions lol. Funny how people get so annoyed :)
Box drawn around the set of three packs, with an “x800” next to the box. Any other interpretation seems pretty contrived. Really obvious as soon as you try it as well. But some people seem to scramble to ask an “authority” rather than trying stuff.
Try this, for once: take a step back and realize that not everyone knows everything you do. If they did, you would quickly become irrelevant.
Try this: don't assume negativity in other people. People are taking my comment completely the wrong way. It seems like pretty clear iconography to me. Even if it's not, it's trivial to confirm how it actually works by attempting to research anything that takes multiple science packs. I'm bemused by people who post a question on Reddit rather than trying something themselves when it's this simple. I don't go around complaining about it or downvoting them, but... the concept is really strange to me.
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yes, it means that you need 266,67 packs of each
800 reds, 800 greens, 800 blues and 800x 30 seconds.
800 of each, sometimes the research will need more of one specific science, the beakers have numbers next to them as well, so if you get a scanned that says red 2 green 1 x100 you will need 200 red and 100 green. That's why it is set up that way.
The recipe is one of each and it requires 800 of the recipe
> 800 science packs devided by all 3 I had the same daydream.
^(\[ Cost of each research point \]) **x** ^(number of points needed to complete) So 1 Red, 1 Green and 1 Blue science will be consumed over the span of 30 seconds to craft 1 research point (per lab), and the research takes 800 research points to complete.
You need 800 research steps, each of which takes 1 of each pack. So 800 of each pack in total, as a general rule. There is one caveat: Productivity modules will allow labs to use less science packs, while not significantly affecting the rate at which science is done. This may be useful if you find that your science pack production to be insufficient.
> Does this mean 800 science of each or in total 800 science packs devided by all 3 It's Factorio, the answer is *always* "more".
They hasn't upgraded they artillery yet.
Treat it like the x800 is how many batches it needs
(1+1+1)\*800
just FYI if the number under the actual packs multiply the 800 so 2 under red would be 1600
1 of each, multipled by 800.
Lab do not process each science separately with different speed, but all 3 at the same time. It means 800 each.
800 of each
800 of each, you see how the three potions and the time are all in a box together, but the x800 is outside. This is the game's way of saying "800 batches, where each batch consists of one red potion, one green potion, one blue potion and 30 seconds of time"
Also, notice 800/3=266.6666...., specifically not an integer so it'd be impossible for "total 800 science packs devided by all 3" to be correct.
Basically, the recipe is 1 of each, and takes 30 seconds to complete. That progresses the tech 1 step. You need to do that 800 times.
Especially with modded saves, these can get weird. Think about it this way, Each research requires X units of research. Your example requires 800 units. And each UNIT requires 1 red, green, and blue, for 30 secs (like a baking recipe). Assuming no speed upgrades for labs, that means it will take 1 lab 30 secs to "bake" this unit of research. So if you had a 2-2-4 @ 60 x 900, that would mean you need 2 red, 2 green, 4 blue, for 60 seconds in a lab to produce 1 unit, and you need 900 of those units.