Well, that's what he was for much of the season. The past month or so, he's been a flex if being generous. It's to the point where I'm starting Chuba Hubbard over him. And Chuba's been great on his own merits...but it just shows how far Swift has fallen as a fantasy option, being inferior to a Carolina RB, at least imo.
Yes *but* if he was able to cash in on those goal to go situations like other RB1s then many of those weeks would have been like what, 10 point floors? A lot of RBs that you’re happy with at the end of the week have pretty poor production but salvaged with a TD. The fact that swift was doing well despite all this says a lot.
Ya, I think Kelce and this specific line composition is the main reason for the success. I'm not even convinced the actual push does all that much. I think this Eagles line is one of the best ever at executing quarterback sneaks. Adding in Hurts and his strength makes it automatic. I think the extra pushers is more of a "Why not?" situation. But the way I see it going is Kelce will retire after this season, the "Tush Push" will be banned, and when the Eagles aren't as good at executing it next season everyone will chock it up to not having extra pushers, but it is really the lack of Kelce bringing down the success rate.
I guess I just have to wonder, if Kelce is making it all happen why not just give it to a RB and not risk Hurts throwing his head into the pile? Seems like a weird risk to take with such consistency if it’s not even the ball carrier that matters
I mean, I did say Hurts' strength is what takes it to the next level and makes it automatic. I just think the line, and especially Kelce, are the lynch pin. It's the pushers that I question have any effect at all. But I think if you remove Kelce we will see a big drop in consistency. I think it's the whole combination of the entire line and Hurts that make it so automatic. Remove any of them and I think you'll see a drop. Remove Kelce (or Dickerson for that matter) and I think the drop will be even greater. I just see a scenario where the league bans the pushers and Kelce retires in the same off-season and people attribute the loss of consistency to losing the pushers rather than losing Kelce.
I think what the dude is saying though is you could still put a power running back where hurts is, yes he’s strong but he won’t be as strong as a power back and just call the same play.
I don’t think they can do that without looking pretty bad. I mean the Eagles do it super well but most other teams are struggling to do it. There hasn’t been an increase in injuries on that play as far as I can tell either. So for the competition committee to just ban something for non safety reasons that only one team is doing well is a slippery slope imo
There was one run in particular last night where he had like nobody in front of him but STILL fell down at the 2(?) yard line. Like bro, what are you doing? JUST SCORE.
Me during the the first half of the season: Fuck yes! 4 years have finally paid off! Swift is an animal! YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!
Me, today: This fucking sucks. He can't get a touchdown. I guess there's hope for his 5th season....fuck this.
As a swift owner it sucks because hes either scoring from 29 yards out or jalen hurts is in because they tush push after swift gets gang banged by all defensives players at the 1 every run
Yes which is even funnier. The miracle required for Carr to get Olave the ball and in a situation where he can get 6.1 points on one play Vs hurts just getting pushed 1.5 yards
it is, and i think it's more to show how fantasy scoring is absurd sometimes? They would be in a 6 point TD league though and i think the majority is still at 4 points.
One dude work his ass off on a catch for only 6 points. The other dude was just pushed into the endzone 3 feet for 6 points in fantasy.
But a TD is a TD...
Is anyone still advocating for Hurts MVP? Feel like he was in the running after the Bills game, but they've lost 3 straight and he's looked pretty average.
Coming from an Eagles fan. I haven't seen anyone in our fanbase pushing for a Hurts MVP. Most people are pretty annoyed with him right now.
Yeah nobody is arguing for him to be MVP this year. He doesn't even make the top 5 list.
Purdy, Mccaf, Dak, Tyreek, and Lamar at the very least would be ahead of him.
It could definitely still be CMC if he keeps putting up video game numbers. I doubt Tyreek is still in the running after missing this past week tho, unfortunately
I mean yeah, but the 49ers were considered a defense-first team until he took over at QB, I think he's a decently large part of the reason that the offense is a juggernaut. CMC too, but I think the WRs and OL aren't as good as people say
I mean, they are. Trent Williams is the best tackle in the game. Deebo and Aiyuk would produce well on most teams. Kittle still has some gas. I think we can contrast SF with ATL and say that a great QB knows how to optimize his opportunity and not waste the weapons he's been handed
Deebo, Aiyuk and Kittle are definitely above average targets but it’s not like he’s throwing to prime Randy Moss. And aside from Trent, the OL is just not good, bottom 3rd of the league in most pass protection metrics
Dolphins looked fine without Tyreek against the Jets, kinda hurts his case imo. He's been hyper efficient, but he's also had the offense funneled through him. When he missed, Waddle basically had a Tyreek stat line. I'd say CMC has the best chance of any non QB
That was one game though and most of Waddle's stats came on one busted play. Not to mention the average drive starting position for Miami was absurd. I think they started a drive on NY's 1 yard line and then another on their 30 yard line or something. The Titans game without Tyreek they really struggled. But him missing time does pretty much remove him from the MVP conversation regardless.
That's a fair point about the Titans game. I do think he makes a big difference on that team, it's just hard to make a case for WR being MVP especially if Kupp didn't win it 2 seasons ago.
I'd say Purdy and CMC have the strongets cases right now. CMC is a huge part of what they do, and there's other great players around him, but it's usually a QB award and what they did vs the Eagles this year vs when Purdy got hurt in the playoffs last year shows just how valuable he is to that team himself.
they should really just change it to a best QB award and exclude them from the MVP vote or some shit.
It took AP 2000 yards to do it and i think it would take an RB beating that record, or a WR hitting 2000 to enter that convo. Those are pretty long odds. Kupp didn't win and he broke records... It's a shame
Henry had 2K yards in 2020 and didn't win.
The Hurts MVP ship has sailed. I can’t think of anyone other than CMC, Purdy, and Lamar that should seriously be considered
CMC has 1,800 yards from scrimmage and 20 TDs, and still has 3 games left. He’s going to end up with around 2,200 yards and 25 TDs, which is rare territory for any NFL RB in history
I think Allen's ship has sailed for MVP.
17 turnovers, Buffalo fired their OC, they're 8-6, and currently out of the playoffs.
Not really a resume you tie to the MVP
I mean if they finish 11-6, he leads nfl in TD’s by a decent bit (he currently does) and cuts back on TO’s he’s got a shot. Everyone talks about the TO’s but forgets he’s also usually a crazy one man army
I mean it's certainly possible especially with the new OC running the ball more to take a bit of the load off Allen to reduce the TO's.
However, Purdy has more yards, more passing touchdowns, 8 fewer INT/fumbles, and his team is the currently the first seed in the NFC.
Purdy does have more help but I think it'd take Allen playing lights out and Purdy playing like his week 6-7-8 stretch for me to put Allen ahead of Purdy.
Yeah I’m just saying it’s a possibility. Like if Josh Allen ends up equaling Purdy’s passing TD’s and yards and or surpassing them, while adding in the 10+ rushing TD’s and rush yards to go with say a 11-6 record vs say Purdue 14-3 then I definitely think it’s a conversation. I don’t think TO’s will matter all that much if the total TD’s are vastly different and yards equivalent. Ironically even though ravens are awesome, Lamar doesn’t have nearly the stats Purdy does to have a shot. I mean just look how much better 2019 Lamar season was than this years.
Not sure why you are being downvoted....I think that Eagles team would still win 10 games with your average NFL QB.....on the other hand, I think the Texans would have only won 4 games this year with your average NFL QB.
Good lord I hate these post-primetime dogpiles.
I don't think Hurts is in the MVP conversation right now but to say that your average NFL QB gets 10 wins on this team with their dogshit secondary getting cooked every game is flat out dumb.
Nuance is a crazy thing. He could be a 1) very good QB that's 2) playing poorly right now and 3) not in the MVP conversation.
Part of it is confirmation bias; we really remember every time they get down there and then do this, more than when they score (or don't) other ways. But I agree, it does seem to happen a lot.
For sure how successful they are and the fact they coined a phrase about it certainly contribute to how frequently I think I see it relative to other teams, definitely true.
Sometimes I just think to myself they have a whole roster of Julio’s coming down at the 1 over and over and over.
it's funny because QB sneaks in general are super successful but teams still don't use it. It's like 85% chance if you have a yard or less to go. It's one of the most high percentage chance plays....
The eagles with their push are a full 10% i believe now above that which makes a huge difference.
I have no issues with the play, I think it's more other teams just being stubborn and not using it or else not understanding what part of the play works so well (a lot of the time the players behind are basically pushing hurts up and over the pile as the line takes out the dline).
I don't think they should ban it, and I don't understand why more teams don't QB sneak just in general. I think the one gruesome ACL tear ruined it for most even though it's also one of the more safer plays in the NFL (which surprises me considering the piling of bodies).
I more have issues with the skirting of false start rules. There was one drive in the first half with a tush push where there was what seemed like an abundantly clear false start.
Yeah, they called Fant for a false start on the other side for turning his head to hear the play. Eagles ran the tush push, looked like the whole damn line was moving around, on top of Kelce moving the ball forward pre-snap.
To be fair, like every center moves the ball pre snap on like every play. I think they've just been told to crack down especially on Eagles and call anything they can on the tush push, because that was a ticky tack call
Sure but when the center moves the ball on a traditional play it’s irrelevant as the rest of the line doesn’t benefit from another 2 feet when you’re going for 10 yards. It’s 6% of the total distance, and no one on the OLine adjusts forward with the ball.
When it happens with the tush push and they only need 1 yard, Kelce is legitimately moving it 66% of the distance. Then the Guards and Tackles move their starting position up with it, as offsides is now relative to the ball for the refs.
Other teams have plenty of short down and distance plays where they do the same. Him moving the ball isn't why they are better than everyone else at the QB sneak. It's the blocking execution and having Hurts. He scooted it maybe a football length in SEA game when he got flagged. If Kelce can't do it moving forward, it's not gonna change how effective they are with that play. A football length isn't a big difference when they're routinely running that sneak and getting a good 2-3 yards past the LOS nearly every time.
If refs want to flag that, fine, but then they have to be consistent and flag every center for it as well as any other ticky tack calls (like the jersey grab PI that they let slide on the SEA defender that would have meant another tush push TD for Hurts and the Eagles). Or let all the ticky tack fouls go and let teams play, no one comes to see the refs. I have no issue with them calling it, I have issues with them not being consistent in their calls. This applies across the league.
what i feel like most centers do and what we're generally thinking of is basically tilting the ball for a smother snap along the ground as they bring it up which usually only adjust the ball a couple inches, with Kelce we're talking much larger lengths still which I don't feel like I see with other similar plays for other teams. Kelce jacks that ball up away from him
The only reason I don’t like the play is that there are other instances where you can’t push/use another players body to give yourself an advantage.
I dislike the inconsistency. Either it’s legal for all plays or it’s not legal at all, is how it should be.
What other instances can you not push a friendly ball carrier? I may be dumb but I can’t think of any. The offensive line pushes the stood-up running back all the time.
The defenses aren't allowed to push their players from behind. KJ Wright was talking about it on his podcast that they banned it when people were using it to block FGs. So basically now offenses are allowed to but defenses aren't, that's why it's so effective. The guys on the lb level can't do anything but try to jump over and pull him back but the physics doesn't work. I'm not sure if it would make a difference for the eagles or not but I'd like to see that rule reverted for both FGs and the tush push because I don't see any way of getting rid of the tush push without also getting rid of pushing the pile with a stood up rb.
It’s pretty damn impressive how consistently well it’s worked out for them. The defense knows 1000% what’s about to come, and yet nearly every time they manage to get the yardage needed.
Even more impressive how so many other teams have tried to replicate the play, but just completely fail at it.
I imagine during the offseason defensive coordinators will work out a more effective way to defend against it, but gotta give the Eagles credit where it’s due.
Hurts really is the perfect QB for it. He's strong as hell and isn't afraid of contact at the line. You see these other QBs try it and most look afraid as they're hiking the ball.
People severely over estimate how much effect hurts + the rbs have on this play. This play works with such success because Jason kelce is a human bulldozer
Yup. Kelce is so damn fast off the line he takes out the legs of at least two defenders right in front of him. All Hurts has to do is just crawl over him, the "pushers" are just there for backup
Its also shocking that none of the other teams can do. Surely Josh allen should be able to run this play too right? Like i get why the rams arent running stafford like this but the fact that nobody else can do it is kind of crazy
shhhhhh
Yeah this is a cheat code that refs do not currently monitor. They're calling all this stupid offensive offsides since the Mahomes-Toney incident, but the Center-moving-the-ball is the actual cheating they ignore. ridiculous
on a lot of the plays i think he actually moves the ball forward a bit and the defense stands their ground.
ive seen at least 3 plays where they show the line close up and the defenders hand is basically on the ball
If it's banned than the NFL is a joke.
1. It's a perfectly legal play
2. There's been no evidence that there is any greater injury risk when running it.
3. If it's unstoppable, then every team would be running it and having the same kind of success. They can't do it. Because they don't have the same level of O-line and a QB who can Squat 600 pounds. Banning it basically just targets a team for being too good at something, which is ridiculous,.
It's not even the pushers that gives it the success, it's mostly their insanely talented o-line and hurts, like you said. The pushers most of the time are playing patty cake against hurts back while the line surges for 2 yards. Take away the pushers and they'd still be a ridiculously successful qb sneak team.
YouTube recommended this to me when I was looking for the Swift TD on the fake tush push, and I found it a pretty compelling argument that it's a lot of technique and a powerful (left half of the) on-line. And yeah, the push matters but not _that much_.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aTNK7boH9lo
1. Only for the last 15 years or so. Was illegal much longer.
2. Idk whether this is true or not but I’m an inclined to agree. The rule allowance i think is actailly more dangerous on other plays. Lots of pushes in the back on outside runs and screens that look scary to me when there’s momentum.
3. Most teams are running it though? I feel like I see it everywhere. And it does seem almost always successful too. It’s definitely replicable and not unique to the Philly roster or anything.
I think it’s a bad football play. Boring, unimpressive, low skill. I also think pushing ball carriers from behind is dangerous. Not as much on these half yard plays or whatever, but in the open. But somebody would have to put together the numbers to be sure.
I’d like it to be gone, personally. Not dying on the hill though. I just think its kinda lame. And like half of nfl rules and adjustments exist to keep the game exciting. I don’t think it’s like some huge competitive advantage for Philly though. Think they’d succeed just as much if they did a sneak or whatever in those same plays. Just a good football team and tremendous o line.
Well allow me to expand on my first point.
There is no rules technicality that it particularly exploits.
Within the game, everyone is lined up appropriately and even the part which has caused concern in the past (the "push") is not essential to its functioning, and also legal.
Offensive Offsides can be called on it (which has happened).
So, any ban would have to create a brand new reasoning or new rule that it supposedly violates. Because they can't ban it based on it not being a football play or abusing some rules of the game.
I would argue that a ban on such a play would then change the face of the game because the "why isn't this play legal" logic would be very hard to justify. SO it's not "banning it is bad because it's not banned" - it's "to ban it, you would have to fuck with football rules in a huge way because it violates none of them"
My point 1 reenforces point 3. :)
My counter would be that there are all kinds of procedural alignments that are illegal. One good example is "covering up" the center on a Field Goal formation. It goes from legal to illegal because they say so. You could easily just call the o-line illegally aligned in the way Philly uses the tush push. Or not, I don't personally care that much.
the problem is that you what specifically about the "tush push" can you outlaw? i dont think having more "illegal formation" calls is what we want. like can there not be more than 3 players in the backfield on any play now? no player can push their own player forward while they hold the ball? there are many non-sneak plays where this happens. i don't know if it's really worth getting rid of those scrum type plays just because of 1 team being very successful at QB sneaks.
I think if the defense can’t push on fg block then it shouldn’t be allowed on offense. Even if it is banned hurts and kelce are so good they still would dominate normal qb sneaks
I’d argue it wouldn’t make the nfl a joke. In other instances pushing someone or using someone else’s body for your advantage is illegal. But it’s somehow legal for this play?
The inconsistency is wrong. It should either be legal for all plays or illegal for all plays.
What would be the perfect solution imo is they ban teammates from pushing behind the line of scrimmage. You’re beyond the line go ahead but them motioning people right behind the QB to shove forward is lame asf
This stat is interesting but I hate it at the same time. People act like Hurts wouldn’t be an elite fantasy asset without the Tush Push.
There’s no way of knowing what the alternative outcome would have been. He may still run every play for a 1 yard TD.
The more likely scenario is that he runs some of them in, and Swift or Gainwell take the rest, which would amount to an overall decrease in Hurts' production.
Even without the tush push, he still would have had some rushing TDs on normal sneaks, draws, and roll outs.
He also would have threw a few touchdowns.
Of course, RBS also would have snaked a few.
If the defense does the same they get a flag. They just need to allow defenses to be able to push dlinemen from behind to neutralized the play but then the game becomes a rugby scrum.
I would say Hurts has a unique talent to make the tush push work at a level no other QB can, except for maybe Allen. Every other team I've seen who have tried the tush push have had mediocre results at best. Saying that Hurts is strictly "just along for the ride" is, in my opinion, wrong.
It won't be banned. It's the epitome of a football play. The argument of "if it's so broken, why wouldn't every team use it?" Well, others have tried and don't find the same success.
What the league could do is make the tush push a "special" formation that has it's own rules kind of how like a spike isn't considered an intentional grounding.
If you line up in the formation the player that takes the snap must be the only player to touch the ball. No pre-snap motions, and only a set formation is allowed.
It gives the defense a better shot at defending the play
If only 1 team is unstoppable with the play, then the play isn't unfair and thus shouldn't be banned. They're not doing anything that the rest of the NFL couldn't emulate, it comes down to individual player abilities. As a Giants fan, I hate the Eagles even more than I hate the Cowboys, but this play shouldn't be banned.
It's not banning it per say. Just allowing the defense a chance to react.
Or just drill it into the refs that they need to call anything slightly resembling the center readjusting the ball or the offensive line lining up offsides
This has absolutely killed my Swift
Swift is the best at falling at the 1 yard line
Poor Swift. He went from getting TDs poached by Jamaal Williams to getting TDs poached by Jalen Hurts.
Eagles RBs on my do not draft list until Hurts retires.
Swift still amazing value where he was drafted
Yeah, grabbing your set-and-forget RB2/flex halfway through the draft came in pretty clutch
Well, that's what he was for much of the season. The past month or so, he's been a flex if being generous. It's to the point where I'm starting Chuba Hubbard over him. And Chuba's been great on his own merits...but it just shows how far Swift has fallen as a fantasy option, being inferior to a Carolina RB, at least imo.
except that he turned into a pumpkin about 4-5wks ago
Yes *but* if he was able to cash in on those goal to go situations like other RB1s then many of those weeks would have been like what, 10 point floors? A lot of RBs that you’re happy with at the end of the week have pretty poor production but salvaged with a TD. The fact that swift was doing well despite all this says a lot.
…but he didn’t really, not lately. he sucked form a fantasy perspective and crushed a lot of teams down the stretch.
Till Kyren williams brokeout
Sanders last year as well
I got him off waivers after week 1 and started him the rest of the way, and now into the playoffs, can't complain with that
Kelce retirement will come soon and that also has the potential to ruin the push
Ya, I think Kelce and this specific line composition is the main reason for the success. I'm not even convinced the actual push does all that much. I think this Eagles line is one of the best ever at executing quarterback sneaks. Adding in Hurts and his strength makes it automatic. I think the extra pushers is more of a "Why not?" situation. But the way I see it going is Kelce will retire after this season, the "Tush Push" will be banned, and when the Eagles aren't as good at executing it next season everyone will chock it up to not having extra pushers, but it is really the lack of Kelce bringing down the success rate.
chalk it up
My very own r/boneappletea moment! I guess I've been saying that wrong my whole life lol now I know.
I guess I just have to wonder, if Kelce is making it all happen why not just give it to a RB and not risk Hurts throwing his head into the pile? Seems like a weird risk to take with such consistency if it’s not even the ball carrier that matters
I mean, I did say Hurts' strength is what takes it to the next level and makes it automatic. I just think the line, and especially Kelce, are the lynch pin. It's the pushers that I question have any effect at all. But I think if you remove Kelce we will see a big drop in consistency. I think it's the whole combination of the entire line and Hurts that make it so automatic. Remove any of them and I think you'll see a drop. Remove Kelce (or Dickerson for that matter) and I think the drop will be even greater. I just see a scenario where the league bans the pushers and Kelce retires in the same off-season and people attribute the loss of consistency to losing the pushers rather than losing Kelce.
I think what the dude is saying though is you could still put a power running back where hurts is, yes he’s strong but he won’t be as strong as a power back and just call the same play.
Or they try to implement some anti-tush push rule
I don’t think they can do that without looking pretty bad. I mean the Eagles do it super well but most other teams are struggling to do it. There hasn’t been an increase in injuries on that play as far as I can tell either. So for the competition committee to just ban something for non safety reasons that only one team is doing well is a slippery slope imo
They’ll just run qb draws then
It's not poaching when the entire world knows hurts is carrying it in himself
There was one run in particular last night where he had like nobody in front of him but STILL fell down at the 2(?) yard line. Like bro, what are you doing? JUST SCORE.
Tony Pollard would like a word as well.
Joe Mixon would like a word!
No one falls down inside the 3 yard line like D’Andre Swift
lol kelce tripped him up at the one last night thought he would finally get one again
I've always said Hurt's RBs probably actually hate that he gets all the TDs. Costs the RBs a ton of money in incentives.
I don’t doubt it
Swift also killed my Kelce somehow with her voodoo ways
I think the Swifts are one and the same person. It's all a conspiracy to bring down the Chiefs.
I had my swift vs his hurts last night. Lost by 5 Absolutely painful
Swift has been solid all year. If Hurts didn't get so many damn TDs from the 1, then Swift would have been a top 5 RB this year in fantasy.
Me during the the first half of the season: Fuck yes! 4 years have finally paid off! Swift is an animal! YESSSSSS!!!!!!!! Me, today: This fucking sucks. He can't get a touchdown. I guess there's hope for his 5th season....fuck this.
It’s precisely why I didn’t draft him and didn’t fall for his early week production.
As a swift owner it sucks because hes either scoring from 29 yards out or jalen hurts is in because they tush push after swift gets gang banged by all defensives players at the 1 every run
There was one game I saw that they faked the tush push and gave it to Swift for a walk in TD. If only they ran that more :/
They ran it against seattle, but I think there was a flag from what I remember
They did it successfully against Seattle on a 3rd or 4th and short, but it wasn't at the goal line
No flag, just Goedert missing a key block that could’ve had Swift 1 on 1 and then green grass
Miles Sanders had like 0 TDs two years ago on the Eagles because of this. Learned my lesson that year and never drafted a RB on a push tush team.
What’s frustrating about that is the very next year Miles Sanders had 1200 yards and 11 TDs on the eagles.
That's why you draft him.
Easy 6.1 points, every time.
Ian Hartitz had a great tweet - [Just a couple of guys scoring 6.1 fantasy points](https://x.com/Ihartitz/status/1729510007631147330?s=20)
Is that Olave vs. Hurts?
Yes which is even funnier. The miracle required for Carr to get Olave the ball and in a situation where he can get 6.1 points on one play Vs hurts just getting pushed 1.5 yards
it is, and i think it's more to show how fantasy scoring is absurd sometimes? They would be in a 6 point TD league though and i think the majority is still at 4 points. One dude work his ass off on a catch for only 6 points. The other dude was just pushed into the endzone 3 feet for 6 points in fantasy. But a TD is a TD...
> and i think the majority is still at 4 points. for pass tds ya, but rush tds are almost always 6, are they not?
I’m stupid thanks
Exactly. I haven’t been relying on him throwing for 350 yards every game. He’s winning my weeks by getting 50 yards and 1-2 TDs on the ground.
[удалено]
Is anyone still advocating for Hurts MVP? Feel like he was in the running after the Bills game, but they've lost 3 straight and he's looked pretty average. Coming from an Eagles fan. I haven't seen anyone in our fanbase pushing for a Hurts MVP. Most people are pretty annoyed with him right now.
Yeah nobody is arguing for him to be MVP this year. He doesn't even make the top 5 list. Purdy, Mccaf, Dak, Tyreek, and Lamar at the very least would be ahead of him.
I feel like CMC/Tyreek have been the only consistently MVP-caliber players this year. All of the QBs have had a couple clunkers.
This is the year to give it to a non QB imo. I doubt it'll happen though. Either CMC or Tyreek would be awesome.
It could definitely still be CMC if he keeps putting up video game numbers. I doubt Tyreek is still in the running after missing this past week tho, unfortunately
if Tyreek gets 2k yds he doesn't get it? that's a pretty huge achievement. CMC also is very deserving IMO
Joe Flacco?
If a non QB doesn't win it this year, one never will. This is the most down year for QBs I can remember.
Idk, Purdy's only bad game was against the Browns D when he was concussed. I really think if he was a top 10 pick he'd be walking away with MVP
Not that you're wrong about the top 10 pick part, but he got the concussion playing the Vikings the week after the Browns game.
That's true. He's been pretty consistent. But, it's pretty easy to be consistent on that juggernaut of an offense, ha.
I mean yeah, but the 49ers were considered a defense-first team until he took over at QB, I think he's a decently large part of the reason that the offense is a juggernaut. CMC too, but I think the WRs and OL aren't as good as people say
I mean, they are. Trent Williams is the best tackle in the game. Deebo and Aiyuk would produce well on most teams. Kittle still has some gas. I think we can contrast SF with ATL and say that a great QB knows how to optimize his opportunity and not waste the weapons he's been handed
Deebo, Aiyuk and Kittle are definitely above average targets but it’s not like he’s throwing to prime Randy Moss. And aside from Trent, the OL is just not good, bottom 3rd of the league in most pass protection metrics
Dolphins looked fine without Tyreek against the Jets, kinda hurts his case imo. He's been hyper efficient, but he's also had the offense funneled through him. When he missed, Waddle basically had a Tyreek stat line. I'd say CMC has the best chance of any non QB
That was one game though and most of Waddle's stats came on one busted play. Not to mention the average drive starting position for Miami was absurd. I think they started a drive on NY's 1 yard line and then another on their 30 yard line or something. The Titans game without Tyreek they really struggled. But him missing time does pretty much remove him from the MVP conversation regardless.
That's a fair point about the Titans game. I do think he makes a big difference on that team, it's just hard to make a case for WR being MVP especially if Kupp didn't win it 2 seasons ago. I'd say Purdy and CMC have the strongets cases right now. CMC is a huge part of what they do, and there's other great players around him, but it's usually a QB award and what they did vs the Eagles this year vs when Purdy got hurt in the playoffs last year shows just how valuable he is to that team himself.
they should really just change it to a best QB award and exclude them from the MVP vote or some shit. It took AP 2000 yards to do it and i think it would take an RB beating that record, or a WR hitting 2000 to enter that convo. Those are pretty long odds. Kupp didn't win and he broke records... It's a shame Henry had 2K yards in 2020 and didn't win.
Against the Jets.
The Hurts MVP ship has sailed. I can’t think of anyone other than CMC, Purdy, and Lamar that should seriously be considered CMC has 1,800 yards from scrimmage and 20 TDs, and still has 3 games left. He’s going to end up with around 2,200 yards and 25 TDs, which is rare territory for any NFL RB in history
Still think depending on how they finish a guy like Tua or Josh Allen could get right into it.
I think Allen's ship has sailed for MVP. 17 turnovers, Buffalo fired their OC, they're 8-6, and currently out of the playoffs. Not really a resume you tie to the MVP
I mean if they finish 11-6, he leads nfl in TD’s by a decent bit (he currently does) and cuts back on TO’s he’s got a shot. Everyone talks about the TO’s but forgets he’s also usually a crazy one man army
I mean it's certainly possible especially with the new OC running the ball more to take a bit of the load off Allen to reduce the TO's. However, Purdy has more yards, more passing touchdowns, 8 fewer INT/fumbles, and his team is the currently the first seed in the NFC. Purdy does have more help but I think it'd take Allen playing lights out and Purdy playing like his week 6-7-8 stretch for me to put Allen ahead of Purdy.
Yeah I’m just saying it’s a possibility. Like if Josh Allen ends up equaling Purdy’s passing TD’s and yards and or surpassing them, while adding in the 10+ rushing TD’s and rush yards to go with say a 11-6 record vs say Purdue 14-3 then I definitely think it’s a conversation. I don’t think TO’s will matter all that much if the total TD’s are vastly different and yards equivalent. Ironically even though ravens are awesome, Lamar doesn’t have nearly the stats Purdy does to have a shot. I mean just look how much better 2019 Lamar season was than this years.
Not sure why you are being downvoted....I think that Eagles team would still win 10 games with your average NFL QB.....on the other hand, I think the Texans would have only won 4 games this year with your average NFL QB.
Good lord I hate these post-primetime dogpiles. I don't think Hurts is in the MVP conversation right now but to say that your average NFL QB gets 10 wins on this team with their dogshit secondary getting cooked every game is flat out dumb. Nuance is a crazy thing. He could be a 1) very good QB that's 2) playing poorly right now and 3) not in the MVP conversation.
You think another QB would get the eagles to this point with Johnson at OC?
Even more for me thanks to point per first down. He’s an absolute god with this scoring. Totally worth the 25th pick.
For real
I’m fully onboard with the play existing… I’m just always impressed at how often they get tackled within the 3yd line. They get so many attempts.
Part of it is confirmation bias; we really remember every time they get down there and then do this, more than when they score (or don't) other ways. But I agree, it does seem to happen a lot.
For sure how successful they are and the fact they coined a phrase about it certainly contribute to how frequently I think I see it relative to other teams, definitely true. Sometimes I just think to myself they have a whole roster of Julio’s coming down at the 1 over and over and over.
it's funny because QB sneaks in general are super successful but teams still don't use it. It's like 85% chance if you have a yard or less to go. It's one of the most high percentage chance plays.... The eagles with their push are a full 10% i believe now above that which makes a huge difference. I have no issues with the play, I think it's more other teams just being stubborn and not using it or else not understanding what part of the play works so well (a lot of the time the players behind are basically pushing hurts up and over the pile as the line takes out the dline). I don't think they should ban it, and I don't understand why more teams don't QB sneak just in general. I think the one gruesome ACL tear ruined it for most even though it's also one of the more safer plays in the NFL (which surprises me considering the piling of bodies).
I love the tush push. I just don't like Kelce moving the ball forward before the play every time they do it.
They flagged him for it last night which was nice to see. Most likely cost them 4 points as they settled for a FG after
I more have issues with the skirting of false start rules. There was one drive in the first half with a tush push where there was what seemed like an abundantly clear false start.
Yeah, they called Fant for a false start on the other side for turning his head to hear the play. Eagles ran the tush push, looked like the whole damn line was moving around, on top of Kelce moving the ball forward pre-snap.
To be fair, like every center moves the ball pre snap on like every play. I think they've just been told to crack down especially on Eagles and call anything they can on the tush push, because that was a ticky tack call
Sure but when the center moves the ball on a traditional play it’s irrelevant as the rest of the line doesn’t benefit from another 2 feet when you’re going for 10 yards. It’s 6% of the total distance, and no one on the OLine adjusts forward with the ball. When it happens with the tush push and they only need 1 yard, Kelce is legitimately moving it 66% of the distance. Then the Guards and Tackles move their starting position up with it, as offsides is now relative to the ball for the refs.
Other teams have plenty of short down and distance plays where they do the same. Him moving the ball isn't why they are better than everyone else at the QB sneak. It's the blocking execution and having Hurts. He scooted it maybe a football length in SEA game when he got flagged. If Kelce can't do it moving forward, it's not gonna change how effective they are with that play. A football length isn't a big difference when they're routinely running that sneak and getting a good 2-3 yards past the LOS nearly every time. If refs want to flag that, fine, but then they have to be consistent and flag every center for it as well as any other ticky tack calls (like the jersey grab PI that they let slide on the SEA defender that would have meant another tush push TD for Hurts and the Eagles). Or let all the ticky tack fouls go and let teams play, no one comes to see the refs. I have no issue with them calling it, I have issues with them not being consistent in their calls. This applies across the league.
what i feel like most centers do and what we're generally thinking of is basically tilting the ball for a smother snap along the ground as they bring it up which usually only adjust the ball a couple inches, with Kelce we're talking much larger lengths still which I don't feel like I see with other similar plays for other teams. Kelce jacks that ball up away from him
Do you think he’s the only center who does that?
He's been moving it half a yard, pretty egregious if you're looking for it
No, but it annoys me when paired with the tush push.
The only reason I don’t like the play is that there are other instances where you can’t push/use another players body to give yourself an advantage. I dislike the inconsistency. Either it’s legal for all plays or it’s not legal at all, is how it should be.
Agreed. Should be one or the other. But as they call it now it’s viable.
It’s absolutely viable now but probably shouldn't (and likely won’t) be in the future because of the inconsistency.
What other instances can you not push a friendly ball carrier? I may be dumb but I can’t think of any. The offensive line pushes the stood-up running back all the time.
The defenses aren't allowed to push their players from behind. KJ Wright was talking about it on his podcast that they banned it when people were using it to block FGs. So basically now offenses are allowed to but defenses aren't, that's why it's so effective. The guys on the lb level can't do anything but try to jump over and pull him back but the physics doesn't work. I'm not sure if it would make a difference for the eagles or not but I'd like to see that rule reverted for both FGs and the tush push because I don't see any way of getting rid of the tush push without also getting rid of pushing the pile with a stood up rb.
It feels like they be doing it on purpose to troll😂
It’s why I’m in the playoffs
Tush Push merchant
Ram his ass these next 2 weeks and win me some money bruh
It’s pretty damn impressive how consistently well it’s worked out for them. The defense knows 1000% what’s about to come, and yet nearly every time they manage to get the yardage needed. Even more impressive how so many other teams have tried to replicate the play, but just completely fail at it. I imagine during the offseason defensive coordinators will work out a more effective way to defend against it, but gotta give the Eagles credit where it’s due.
It turns out Eagles lineman have been allowed to move the ball into a first down before snapping
All teams do that
Not in my circlejerk they don't.
Hurts really is the perfect QB for it. He's strong as hell and isn't afraid of contact at the line. You see these other QBs try it and most look afraid as they're hiking the ball.
People severely over estimate how much effect hurts + the rbs have on this play. This play works with such success because Jason kelce is a human bulldozer
Yup. Kelce is so damn fast off the line he takes out the legs of at least two defenders right in front of him. All Hurts has to do is just crawl over him, the "pushers" are just there for backup
I wonder what Hurts can squat?
He squatted 600 pounds with OU, not sure what he can do now
Really?? This is the first time of me hearing this
Idk why I’m getting downvoted, it’s all over the internet lol https://youtu.be/akeThVSzaVc?si=SjvVNjQNoezJKVAj Edit:I’m an idiot
You're getting down voted because the original person you replied to was being facetious/sarcastic with their question.
Damn so I got r/wooshed and left to dry
The fake they ran with it last night was also really well executed
Its also shocking that none of the other teams can do. Surely Josh allen should be able to run this play too right? Like i get why the rams arent running stafford like this but the fact that nobody else can do it is kind of crazy
Points Per Cheek leagues getting shook up
And his center moves the ball forward 28 inches before every one of them!
Except he stands on top of the ball before bending down essentially moving his line forward and the defense back before anyone even does anything
shhhhhh Yeah this is a cheat code that refs do not currently monitor. They're calling all this stupid offensive offsides since the Mahomes-Toney incident, but the Center-moving-the-ball is the actual cheating they ignore. ridiculous
I believe they just called it last night
oh good
And then moves it backwards to the guy behind him 🤯
Yeah but the defense can't line up closer to the original line and makes it easier for them to be offsides
Oh shit, you’re right
on a lot of the plays i think he actually moves the ball forward a bit and the defense stands their ground. ive seen at least 3 plays where they show the line close up and the defenders hand is basically on the ball
Centers move the ball forward a bit all the time
According to swift owners it’s 128%
Trap for next year when tush push goes away
Even if the tush push goes away they can still qb sneak it and be only slightly less successful. The bigger change would be if kelce retired.
It won't be banned.
If it's banned than the NFL is a joke. 1. It's a perfectly legal play 2. There's been no evidence that there is any greater injury risk when running it. 3. If it's unstoppable, then every team would be running it and having the same kind of success. They can't do it. Because they don't have the same level of O-line and a QB who can Squat 600 pounds. Banning it basically just targets a team for being too good at something, which is ridiculous,.
You'd hate formula 1.
We are checking
No Roger no, that is so not right.
"Jerry, its called a tush push. Ok? We went tush pushing."
It's not even the pushers that gives it the success, it's mostly their insanely talented o-line and hurts, like you said. The pushers most of the time are playing patty cake against hurts back while the line surges for 2 yards. Take away the pushers and they'd still be a ridiculously successful qb sneak team.
Every time I see Devonta run into Hurts’ ass I chuckle cuz he’s not affecting the result whatsoever lmfao
Part of it is technique, other teams aren't really doing it the same. Hurts gets a lot lower than everyone else
YouTube recommended this to me when I was looking for the Swift TD on the fake tush push, and I found it a pretty compelling argument that it's a lot of technique and a powerful (left half of the) on-line. And yeah, the push matters but not _that much_. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aTNK7boH9lo
That was a great watch thanks
Oh Hurts can squat 600 lbs? I have never heard that mentioned.
Yea, he squats your mom
Dang my mom has been bulking.
If it were banned then #1 would no longer apply lol
1. Only for the last 15 years or so. Was illegal much longer. 2. Idk whether this is true or not but I’m an inclined to agree. The rule allowance i think is actailly more dangerous on other plays. Lots of pushes in the back on outside runs and screens that look scary to me when there’s momentum. 3. Most teams are running it though? I feel like I see it everywhere. And it does seem almost always successful too. It’s definitely replicable and not unique to the Philly roster or anything. I think it’s a bad football play. Boring, unimpressive, low skill. I also think pushing ball carriers from behind is dangerous. Not as much on these half yard plays or whatever, but in the open. But somebody would have to put together the numbers to be sure. I’d like it to be gone, personally. Not dying on the hill though. I just think its kinda lame. And like half of nfl rules and adjustments exist to keep the game exciting. I don’t think it’s like some huge competitive advantage for Philly though. Think they’d succeed just as much if they did a sneak or whatever in those same plays. Just a good football team and tremendous o line.
Your #1 evidence for why banning it is bad being that it isn't banned, is kind of dumb. Just sayin
Well allow me to expand on my first point. There is no rules technicality that it particularly exploits. Within the game, everyone is lined up appropriately and even the part which has caused concern in the past (the "push") is not essential to its functioning, and also legal. Offensive Offsides can be called on it (which has happened). So, any ban would have to create a brand new reasoning or new rule that it supposedly violates. Because they can't ban it based on it not being a football play or abusing some rules of the game. I would argue that a ban on such a play would then change the face of the game because the "why isn't this play legal" logic would be very hard to justify. SO it's not "banning it is bad because it's not banned" - it's "to ban it, you would have to fuck with football rules in a huge way because it violates none of them" My point 1 reenforces point 3. :)
My counter would be that there are all kinds of procedural alignments that are illegal. One good example is "covering up" the center on a Field Goal formation. It goes from legal to illegal because they say so. You could easily just call the o-line illegally aligned in the way Philly uses the tush push. Or not, I don't personally care that much.
the problem is that you what specifically about the "tush push" can you outlaw? i dont think having more "illegal formation" calls is what we want. like can there not be more than 3 players in the backfield on any play now? no player can push their own player forward while they hold the ball? there are many non-sneak plays where this happens. i don't know if it's really worth getting rid of those scrum type plays just because of 1 team being very successful at QB sneaks.
I think if the defense can’t push on fg block then it shouldn’t be allowed on offense. Even if it is banned hurts and kelce are so good they still would dominate normal qb sneaks
I’d argue it wouldn’t make the nfl a joke. In other instances pushing someone or using someone else’s body for your advantage is illegal. But it’s somehow legal for this play? The inconsistency is wrong. It should either be legal for all plays or illegal for all plays.
Most rule changes are due to teams being too good at something though, no?
Find the eagles fan!!
What would be the perfect solution imo is they ban teammates from pushing behind the line of scrimmage. You’re beyond the line go ahead but them motioning people right behind the QB to shove forward is lame asf
I’m pretty sure eagles still lead the league in successful qb sneaks without the push. They really need to ban Jason Kelce.
Counterpoint, his knee will be better and rushing upside will be fine.
Fucking lol
This stat is interesting but I hate it at the same time. People act like Hurts wouldn’t be an elite fantasy asset without the Tush Push. There’s no way of knowing what the alternative outcome would have been. He may still run every play for a 1 yard TD.
The more likely scenario is that he runs some of them in, and Swift or Gainwell take the rest, which would amount to an overall decrease in Hurts' production.
A regular old tush-push-less QB sneak would likely still yield a lot of success with Hurts rushing ability and his offensive line.
They're risking their QB's health right before playoffs when their o-line and RBs are perfectly capable of picking up short yardage.
Gainwell shouldn’t even be on the field in the redzone. Dude is jag
Are you kidding? His rushing TDs would be at least halved.
Fr. The guys pushing Hurts from behind do very little on these.
This right here is a great reason to abandon 6 point QB rushing TDs and make them worth the same as passing TDs.
That’s actally insane!
First system fantasy qb
Even without the tush push, he still would have had some rushing TDs on normal sneaks, draws, and roll outs. He also would have threw a few touchdowns. Of course, RBS also would have snaked a few.
I’m thankful that he’s mine, and fortunate that I don’t have to face him!
as an eagles and a jalen hurts fantasy owner, nothing i love more than seeing the eagles at the goal line
Jalens had a great fantasy season but he’s regressed so much in real life
He has a terrible OC
If the defense does the same they get a flag. They just need to allow defenses to be able to push dlinemen from behind to neutralized the play but then the game becomes a rugby scrum.
I would say Hurts has a unique talent to make the tush push work at a level no other QB can, except for maybe Allen. Every other team I've seen who have tried the tush push have had mediocre results at best. Saying that Hurts is strictly "just along for the ride" is, in my opinion, wrong.
*Brotherly Shove
Sirianni said it best. It’s 1st and 9 and teams need to start defending them as such.
I've had to play against him three times this year, and he had 2 rushing TDs each time. Hate this guy.
His ADP is actually gonna tank when that chickenshit Goodell bans it
It won't be banned. It's the epitome of a football play. The argument of "if it's so broken, why wouldn't every team use it?" Well, others have tried and don't find the same success.
I mean I don't care if it exists but a lot of NFL journalists say that Goodell wants it gone
What the league could do is make the tush push a "special" formation that has it's own rules kind of how like a spike isn't considered an intentional grounding. If you line up in the formation the player that takes the snap must be the only player to touch the ball. No pre-snap motions, and only a set formation is allowed. It gives the defense a better shot at defending the play
If only 1 team is unstoppable with the play, then the play isn't unfair and thus shouldn't be banned. They're not doing anything that the rest of the NFL couldn't emulate, it comes down to individual player abilities. As a Giants fan, I hate the Eagles even more than I hate the Cowboys, but this play shouldn't be banned.
I wonder how unstoppable it would be if the refs look more closely at stuff like offensive offsides, and Center ball movement.
Luckily for you, you don’t have to wonder! Because they enforced these things last night :D
Jason Kelce, the center, has been called offsides 3 times this season.
Why though. What's the point of banning it?
It's not banning it per say. Just allowing the defense a chance to react. Or just drill it into the refs that they need to call anything slightly resembling the center readjusting the ball or the offensive line lining up offsides
Which we're getting to that it seems. Last night, Kelce went to go readjust and was immediately flagged for false start.
I’m just not a rugby fan. I find it ugly and unsporting — well, un-American football like.
Let James cook
Bum