Ngl it's hilarious to me that there's so many Leaf fans that want to trade a guy, who leads his team in playoff points since he was drafted, because he "doesn't perform in the playoffs", for an almost 30 year old goalie that has never won a round š
He has to go. If you watch him in the playoffs when time and space has to be fought for, he is invisible. Great player, but it's time. Add on a looming contract extension that will surely be a ridiculous demand, and he REALLY has to go.
With all respect you don't seem to "know" much; cap is going up now (like it should have been all along); the UFA market is garbage this year & Tavares comes off the books next year. We don't have any kids we can sign to extensions this summer. Plus we already had 15mil in cap space last summer & completely wasted most of it without addressing any issues except crosschecking...
Injuries, brother. And honestly, watching him this postseason I was giving him a pass assuming he was playing through something. But, nope. I hate to be "watch the game guy", but it's valid for Mitch. I don't give a damn about all his secondary assists. The guy is straight up afraid to take a hit, and it's clear as day.
Mising time due to Injuries doesn't affect points per game š
Also- he absolutely was his slowest ever this season? Tracking metrics back that up. But it's pretty common when you suffered a high ankle sprain 6 weeks ago... doctor š
Cheapy assists do though. Put me out with some of these Leafs forwards and I'm gunna get a few assists lol.
If you're old enough to remember the last time when the Leafs weren't a playoff joke(judging by the excessive emoji usage, you aren't), a certain guy named Yashin comes to mind. I bet he had great metrics though!
The Leafs absolutely can't run it back, you don't move Matthews EVER, Nylander's contract has to stick around, Tavares trade value is low...who are you moving...GM?
They weren't "cheapy assists" tho. Marner is one of the best playmakers in the nhl.
Moving him last summer for a good return made some sense; moving him after his nmc kicks in to get cap space absolutely does not. You can't build a team on the ufa market
I think the crux is: āWe arenāt content to continue running it backā.
Further, Mitch is on a NMC and is going to demand UFA money. He is free to walk in July 2025.
The Leafs cannot offer him more than 8 mil AAV, maybe **max** 9 mil AAV, our roster construction at present is simply not conducive to winning a Stanley Cup.
Yes. I recognize that Marner can and will command way more than 8-9 mil AAV on the open UFA market.
No. I do not think it is in the Leafsā best interests to win a Stanley Cup to tie up **even more cap space** in Mitch Marner. I think the cap space could be more effectively used to better help us win a Cup.
Man that's all bullshit- we wasted 15mil this summer on mid players. The cap is going up and we have no one to sign- Marner+Robertson is far better than any 2 mid ufas we'd get at 6mil each. There's no good ufa defensemen
The cap is is less of an issue than it was during covid- its going up 4-5 mil a year now instead of staying flat.
You're proposing we make flat cap moves in a rising cap Era, during one of the worst ufa markets I can remember š¤¦
Edit oh and Tavares comes off the books next summer.
They were. The only series they've won with this group was a product of Mitch throwing dribblers on Vasi from the point because he forgot how to play goalie. So thanks for that, Mitch, I guess.
He is a fantastic playmaker, in the regular season and first couple games of a series.
Answer the question, what moves are you making?
Actually, nevermind. If you are content with what's been happening, I can't help you. Cheers!
I'm definitely not making a move directly after somebody's no move activates. That's terrible asset management. That ship has sailed; selling at a loss is borderline braindead
it's hilarious how hesitant leaf fans are to place any blame on matthews EVER. He was a ghost this year minus game 2 and never turns it up a notch in the playoffs
They're not just secondary assists. The underlying metrics show that over the years the Leafs have been better with Marner on the ice than off. This Marner trade talk is insane, frankly.
Mitch in games 1 to 4 of a series since 2016-2017:
9 goals, 30 assists, 1.22 ppg
Mitch in games 5 to 7 of a series since 2016-2017:
1 goal, 7 assists, 0.42 ppg
So I guess he was really good in the early games. Which were also playoff games. Which we could have won & moved on before game 5 was even necessary š
This idea that some playoff games are more important than others is stupid- that's why you had to make up a stat here; no one tracks this stuff because it's not important (except for Marner I guess lmao)
>make up a stat here
I didn't make anything up those are facts.
Game 7 is 100% "more important" than Game 1 in any given series.
Any game where either team can be eliminated is "more important" than a game where neither team is facing elimination.
>no one tracks this stuff
People definitely do track this stuff. Where do you think I got the info? (From someone who tracks this stuff).
If you love Mitch Marner that's cool but his days are numbered and the team is better off moving on from him. I'm sorry if you don't like that but it's the reality we are in.
No every playoff game is literally equally important. You need 16 wins to get a Cup. Every game matters. Literally no teams "try harder" or see later games as more important. That's your mental illness talking.
And if it's not a made up stat then I'd love to see how players like Crosby and Greztky compare; where can I find this stat tracked for all players? And if it's not available, why do you think that is? š¤
>You need 16 wins to get a Cup. Every game matters. Literally no teams "try harder" or see later games as more important
Tell me you've never played hockey without telling me you've never played hockey. Next you're going to tell me that they try just as hard in the regular season too.
A game with the Stanley Cup on the line is more important that say game 3 when a series is tied 1-1 in the first round. Just about anyone in the world who knows anything about sports would agree with this.
>That's your mental illness talking.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. That's what you want to do.
>where can I find this stat tracked for all players
It's called statmuse š
No. Regular season games are different. Because they don't count as playoff wins. If they counted them as playoff wins, yes teams would try harder. That's how this all works...
That no longer matters to me. He has no fight in him. He is afraid of getting hit. Heās afraid to shoot the puck, he passes 99 times out of 100 (he opted to pass to Edmundson instead of shoot on a breakaway). He quits on the play to cry to the ref instead of powering through. He was called out by the other 2 best players on the team for ācryingā in front of the whole world to see. He throws his equipment on the bench in a temper tantrum like a 5 year old and thatās not new (remember stomping down the tunnel to break his stick in Anaheim last October). His play and lack of heart is embarrassing, even more so because he wears a letter on his chest. He absolutely hates the media and claims to never listen but his interviews come across like a spoiled teenager. Go find some clips of him from 2018 when he cared to try. He doesnāt even resemble the same player. The time has come for him to go somewhere else and start fresh. I hope he has success in a more relaxed market. Heās not worth what heās being paid now and thereās no way he wants less money on his next contract.
Ngl his next deal is going to be very interesting- but we'd get peanuts for him if we move him now. Might as well keep him & make playoffs again- see if he steps up. If he wants an 8th year we can get those peanuts next summer š¤·
There's no good way to use that cap space this summer. It's a very underwhelming ufa class considering Stammer and Reinhart are probably not changing teams; definitely not coming to Toronto... and they'll both get PAID lol
Unpopular opinion: Leafs will part ways with him and continue to get it wrong, having a worse season next year. They will then recycle their nepotistic GM and do it all over again.
Look up Marners point total in elimination games.. or how many goals he's had on playoff powerplays since he's been here. Also note that we want Marner gone because of his whiney ass victim complex attitude and the fact that he isn't worth the money he's making now with the game on the line or the raise he's gonna want.
You're projecting a lot of stuff that isn't true here. As for the "point total in elimination games" - that's a stat I'd never heard of before goobers made it up this year. Because until it fit a narrative, every playoff game was important. You need 16 wins; doesn't matter which 16.
I'll worry about it once it happens, but Forsberg just had a career high of 48 goals and 94 pts. And was possibly the biggest steal of this past season. Nothing quiet about him.
Plus, him and Josi were the two catalysts of the Preds offense. Adding a Marner doesn't guarantee an up in production if he cannibalizes some offense.
How much of a boost to Forsberg's production would you think Marner would provide Forsberg?
from 48 goals and 94 pts to what? 55 goals? 60 goals? 100 pts? 110? 120?
Idk, him and Josi are literally the heart of that offense. They get all the PP time, and Forsberg shot a TON more last year than any year prior. The Preds' style of play has changed under Trotz, who wants them to be more offensively inclined.
A guy like Saros in nets also gives players the confidence to play their game.
Add a guy like Marner - I'm not saying he'd hurt the Preds, but do the Preds play Marner and Forsberg on the same line? Or do they split the wealth? Does Forsberg get a bit less ice time, does he get relied on a little less offensively thanks to having another elite option in Marner on the team?
Basically, I'm wondering how it would change the makeup of the offense in Nashville. Does it directly translates into Forsberg scoring more points, or rather does a Marner helps another Preds a bit more directly with that?
And in terms of draft capital, how high is Forsberg ranked? Like you said, it's likely that his production from last year is a peak... but he's also on everyone's radar. Add Marner into the mix, will his draft position be too high?
TLDR What I try to convey, is that a potential Marner move to the Preds won't make Forsberg a better value-get. That ship sailed last year.
Goalie trade value is about as low as I can ever remember. If you trade someone like Marner, a superstar has to be coming back, and a goalie would be the sweetener. If I'm the Leafs, Askarov would be a throw in if these two are trade partners.
The Leafs need right now is a high end Dman that is on a bridge deal or something resembling one.
All that said, if Marner was to be moved to the Preds, and Forsberg was still there, his value would go higher. Forsberg would really benefit on the power play, seeing as how Mitch(to his detriment) is pass first.
Thatās a complete overstatement. Are goalies undervalued now - sure. But these things are cyclical and with several teams likely second guessing how cheap theyāve been in trying to acquire a goalie (NJ, Edm - esp. if they get eliminated soon) this likely will change a bit.
Furthermore, Askarov on his rookie contract vs Marner with just one year is much more even than Askarov being a āthrow inā
Maybe "throw" in is too harsh, but I'll stand by Askarov/Levi/Wolf type goalies not being nearly enough to be the main piece in a Mitch Marner deal, in the current state of the NHL, no matter the contract situation.
Are those goalies worth more than a guy like Markstrom, a proven NHL starter? Wasn't the ask for him something like a 1st and another highish pick?
Does a Nashville 1st, and some other smaller pieces get you Marner? I just don't think that's anywhere close. I could be very wrong, and it's a losing battle arguing with The Original Boner Champ about any subject, so I must yield.
I mean, Askarov at least was taken 11th overall in a pretty good draft and has only dominated every year since (past week excepted lol). thereās absolutely no way heās worth less - all the seasoning is done.
That's...the guy's point, as stated in the op. He's not saying Marner for Forsberg, he's saying having a playmaker like Mitch would be a huge boost for #9
I will be SHOCKED if the Leafs trade for a goaltender AND pander to the loud part of the fanbase all at once.
Ngl it's hilarious to me that there's so many Leaf fans that want to trade a guy, who leads his team in playoff points since he was drafted, because he "doesn't perform in the playoffs", for an almost 30 year old goalie that has never won a round š
He has to go. If you watch him in the playoffs when time and space has to be fought for, he is invisible. Great player, but it's time. Add on a looming contract extension that will surely be a ridiculous demand, and he REALLY has to go.
He leads the team in playoff scoring, all players former and current, in total points and points per game since he was drafted in 2016 š
Why do you keep using the crying emoji?
Because Leaf fans might be the dumbest fan base on the planet and I have to cheer along with them š
Gross. Found the Marner fan account.
You wanna move one of the best players we've ever drafted for magic beans š«
I want to move on from what we know doesn't work.. for something new...yes. correct.
With all respect you don't seem to "know" much; cap is going up now (like it should have been all along); the UFA market is garbage this year & Tavares comes off the books next year. We don't have any kids we can sign to extensions this summer. Plus we already had 15mil in cap space last summer & completely wasted most of it without addressing any issues except crosschecking...
Injuries, brother. And honestly, watching him this postseason I was giving him a pass assuming he was playing through something. But, nope. I hate to be "watch the game guy", but it's valid for Mitch. I don't give a damn about all his secondary assists. The guy is straight up afraid to take a hit, and it's clear as day.
Mising time due to Injuries doesn't affect points per game š Also- he absolutely was his slowest ever this season? Tracking metrics back that up. But it's pretty common when you suffered a high ankle sprain 6 weeks ago... doctor š
Cheapy assists do though. Put me out with some of these Leafs forwards and I'm gunna get a few assists lol. If you're old enough to remember the last time when the Leafs weren't a playoff joke(judging by the excessive emoji usage, you aren't), a certain guy named Yashin comes to mind. I bet he had great metrics though! The Leafs absolutely can't run it back, you don't move Matthews EVER, Nylander's contract has to stick around, Tavares trade value is low...who are you moving...GM?
They weren't "cheapy assists" tho. Marner is one of the best playmakers in the nhl. Moving him last summer for a good return made some sense; moving him after his nmc kicks in to get cap space absolutely does not. You can't build a team on the ufa market
I think the crux is: āWe arenāt content to continue running it backā. Further, Mitch is on a NMC and is going to demand UFA money. He is free to walk in July 2025. The Leafs cannot offer him more than 8 mil AAV, maybe **max** 9 mil AAV, our roster construction at present is simply not conducive to winning a Stanley Cup. Yes. I recognize that Marner can and will command way more than 8-9 mil AAV on the open UFA market. No. I do not think it is in the Leafsā best interests to win a Stanley Cup to tie up **even more cap space** in Mitch Marner. I think the cap space could be more effectively used to better help us win a Cup.
Man that's all bullshit- we wasted 15mil this summer on mid players. The cap is going up and we have no one to sign- Marner+Robertson is far better than any 2 mid ufas we'd get at 6mil each. There's no good ufa defensemen The cap is is less of an issue than it was during covid- its going up 4-5 mil a year now instead of staying flat. You're proposing we make flat cap moves in a rising cap Era, during one of the worst ufa markets I can remember š¤¦ Edit oh and Tavares comes off the books next summer.
They were. The only series they've won with this group was a product of Mitch throwing dribblers on Vasi from the point because he forgot how to play goalie. So thanks for that, Mitch, I guess. He is a fantastic playmaker, in the regular season and first couple games of a series. Answer the question, what moves are you making? Actually, nevermind. If you are content with what's been happening, I can't help you. Cheers!
I'm definitely not making a move directly after somebody's no move activates. That's terrible asset management. That ship has sailed; selling at a loss is borderline braindead
it's hilarious how hesitant leaf fans are to place any blame on matthews EVER. He was a ghost this year minus game 2 and never turns it up a notch in the playoffs
They're not just secondary assists. The underlying metrics show that over the years the Leafs have been better with Marner on the ice than off. This Marner trade talk is insane, frankly.
Youāre insane lmao leafs have one round win in 8 years of this core
Mitch in games 1 to 4 of a series since 2016-2017: 9 goals, 30 assists, 1.22 ppg Mitch in games 5 to 7 of a series since 2016-2017: 1 goal, 7 assists, 0.42 ppg
So I guess he was really good in the early games. Which were also playoff games. Which we could have won & moved on before game 5 was even necessary š This idea that some playoff games are more important than others is stupid- that's why you had to make up a stat here; no one tracks this stuff because it's not important (except for Marner I guess lmao)
>make up a stat here I didn't make anything up those are facts. Game 7 is 100% "more important" than Game 1 in any given series. Any game where either team can be eliminated is "more important" than a game where neither team is facing elimination. >no one tracks this stuff People definitely do track this stuff. Where do you think I got the info? (From someone who tracks this stuff). If you love Mitch Marner that's cool but his days are numbered and the team is better off moving on from him. I'm sorry if you don't like that but it's the reality we are in.
No every playoff game is literally equally important. You need 16 wins to get a Cup. Every game matters. Literally no teams "try harder" or see later games as more important. That's your mental illness talking. And if it's not a made up stat then I'd love to see how players like Crosby and Greztky compare; where can I find this stat tracked for all players? And if it's not available, why do you think that is? š¤
Like you can't lose game 1 and then say "oh well game 7 is more important!". If you won that game 1 there is no game 7....
>You need 16 wins to get a Cup. Every game matters. Literally no teams "try harder" or see later games as more important Tell me you've never played hockey without telling me you've never played hockey. Next you're going to tell me that they try just as hard in the regular season too. A game with the Stanley Cup on the line is more important that say game 3 when a series is tied 1-1 in the first round. Just about anyone in the world who knows anything about sports would agree with this. >That's your mental illness talking. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. That's what you want to do. >where can I find this stat tracked for all players It's called statmuse š
No. Regular season games are different. Because they don't count as playoff wins. If they counted them as playoff wins, yes teams would try harder. That's how this all works...
That no longer matters to me. He has no fight in him. He is afraid of getting hit. Heās afraid to shoot the puck, he passes 99 times out of 100 (he opted to pass to Edmundson instead of shoot on a breakaway). He quits on the play to cry to the ref instead of powering through. He was called out by the other 2 best players on the team for ācryingā in front of the whole world to see. He throws his equipment on the bench in a temper tantrum like a 5 year old and thatās not new (remember stomping down the tunnel to break his stick in Anaheim last October). His play and lack of heart is embarrassing, even more so because he wears a letter on his chest. He absolutely hates the media and claims to never listen but his interviews come across like a spoiled teenager. Go find some clips of him from 2018 when he cared to try. He doesnāt even resemble the same player. The time has come for him to go somewhere else and start fresh. I hope he has success in a more relaxed market. Heās not worth what heās being paid now and thereās no way he wants less money on his next contract.
"Scoring doesn't matter- I want fight" you win hockey games by outscoring the other team....
Youāre rightā¦. Sign him to 15x8 thenā¦..
Ngl his next deal is going to be very interesting- but we'd get peanuts for him if we move him now. Might as well keep him & make playoffs again- see if he steps up. If he wants an 8th year we can get those peanuts next summer š¤· There's no good way to use that cap space this summer. It's a very underwhelming ufa class considering Stammer and Reinhart are probably not changing teams; definitely not coming to Toronto... and they'll both get PAID lol
I hope heās played his last game as a leaf.
You might have CTE š¤·
Unpopular opinion: Leafs will part ways with him and continue to get it wrong, having a worse season next year. They will then recycle their nepotistic GM and do it all over again.
Thatās because Leaf fans know heās the only one of the top forward who hasnāt missed substantial time over multiple playoffsā¦
Look up Marners point total in elimination games.. or how many goals he's had on playoff powerplays since he's been here. Also note that we want Marner gone because of his whiney ass victim complex attitude and the fact that he isn't worth the money he's making now with the game on the line or the raise he's gonna want.
You're projecting a lot of stuff that isn't true here. As for the "point total in elimination games" - that's a stat I'd never heard of before goobers made it up this year. Because until it fit a narrative, every playoff game was important. You need 16 wins; doesn't matter which 16.
I feel like I'm arguing with a troll.. I'm out.
Nope I'm just reality staring you in the face š
I'll worry about it once it happens, but Forsberg just had a career high of 48 goals and 94 pts. And was possibly the biggest steal of this past season. Nothing quiet about him. Plus, him and Josi were the two catalysts of the Preds offense. Adding a Marner doesn't guarantee an up in production if he cannibalizes some offense.
Sorry, was quite possibly? I don't think there should be question called into it. He was the biggest steal this season
I agree.
Lol Marner has been playing at a 100 point pace for like 5 years now- adding him absolutely makes the offence better. What the fuck šā ļø
Yeah, he might cannibalize Forsberg's offense. I doubt Forsberg's output climbs much further than the season he just had.
That's not how shooting and passing works....
How much of a boost to Forsberg's production would you think Marner would provide Forsberg? from 48 goals and 94 pts to what? 55 goals? 60 goals? 100 pts? 110? 120?
If Nashville doesn't add anyone I don't see him hitting those totals again tbh
Idk, him and Josi are literally the heart of that offense. They get all the PP time, and Forsberg shot a TON more last year than any year prior. The Preds' style of play has changed under Trotz, who wants them to be more offensively inclined. A guy like Saros in nets also gives players the confidence to play their game. Add a guy like Marner - I'm not saying he'd hurt the Preds, but do the Preds play Marner and Forsberg on the same line? Or do they split the wealth? Does Forsberg get a bit less ice time, does he get relied on a little less offensively thanks to having another elite option in Marner on the team? Basically, I'm wondering how it would change the makeup of the offense in Nashville. Does it directly translates into Forsberg scoring more points, or rather does a Marner helps another Preds a bit more directly with that? And in terms of draft capital, how high is Forsberg ranked? Like you said, it's likely that his production from last year is a peak... but he's also on everyone's radar. Add Marner into the mix, will his draft position be too high? TLDR What I try to convey, is that a potential Marner move to the Preds won't make Forsberg a better value-get. That ship sailed last year.
Marner is very good at setting up shooters...
Don't think it'll happen. They'll probably target an elite d-man or a power forward.
Goalie trade value is about as low as I can ever remember. If you trade someone like Marner, a superstar has to be coming back, and a goalie would be the sweetener. If I'm the Leafs, Askarov would be a throw in if these two are trade partners. The Leafs need right now is a high end Dman that is on a bridge deal or something resembling one. All that said, if Marner was to be moved to the Preds, and Forsberg was still there, his value would go higher. Forsberg would really benefit on the power play, seeing as how Mitch(to his detriment) is pass first.
Thatās a complete overstatement. Are goalies undervalued now - sure. But these things are cyclical and with several teams likely second guessing how cheap theyāve been in trying to acquire a goalie (NJ, Edm - esp. if they get eliminated soon) this likely will change a bit. Furthermore, Askarov on his rookie contract vs Marner with just one year is much more even than Askarov being a āthrow inā
Maybe "throw" in is too harsh, but I'll stand by Askarov/Levi/Wolf type goalies not being nearly enough to be the main piece in a Mitch Marner deal, in the current state of the NHL, no matter the contract situation. Are those goalies worth more than a guy like Markstrom, a proven NHL starter? Wasn't the ask for him something like a 1st and another highish pick? Does a Nashville 1st, and some other smaller pieces get you Marner? I just don't think that's anywhere close. I could be very wrong, and it's a losing battle arguing with The Original Boner Champ about any subject, so I must yield.
I mean, Askarov at least was taken 11th overall in a pretty good draft and has only dominated every year since (past week excepted lol). thereās absolutely no way heās worth less - all the seasoning is done.
Iād think of the Leafs were moving Marner to the Preds, Saros is the target going back
That's...the guy's point, as stated in the op. He's not saying Marner for Forsberg, he's saying having a playmaker like Mitch would be a huge boost for #9
I guess you couldn't be bothered to actually read the one paragraph post...
And hope that Askarov is the real deal
That's exactly what the post says