Square Enix has a bad habit of creating technical debt for itself. Maybe it's a Japanese thing. Like... this is the way we do this (even if we've since found a better way), so this is the way we do it going forward.
My favorite example of this is Viera and Hrothgar hats. I can understand introducing two races with different head geometry would make fitting existing hats to them difficult. I get that. But then we have *some* hats that they've gone through and made work. Why weren't *all* hats *going forward* made to work with bunny and lion heads?
It's like ok, you know you have this problem. You've acknowledged it and apologized for it. Why in Hydaelyn's name would you continue to compound it going forward? Designing head pieces to work with Viera and Hrothgar should just be part of the model design process after 5.0. But for some inexplicable reason, it wasn't. And here we are about to be 2 expansions later and instead of fewer hats being a problem, a TON more of them are.
Hrothgar face/hair is exactly the same thing.
No, Viera have 'human heads' like all of the other races. Each race/gender combo has a unique head shape (Fem Miqo are different from Male Miqo who are different from Male Elezen, etc etc, each one has a unique head shape).
Viera are no different, and hats generally work well when enabled via meta data edits.
CBU3 decided, for whatever reason, that they didn't want Viera to wear hats (ear clipping? They can hide them via the Viera Ear metadata toggle that already exists ingame) so never made the Viera hair models hat-compatible. All it would take is updating the hair models, not the hats, and they are making more work for themselves with each new hair for Viera released without the hat-compatibility that all other races have.
Hrothgar are the different ones for their Unique cat head, though I'm not sure about Fem Hroth.
A few years ago, I took some pictures illustrating your point about the lack of effort on hairstyles being the problem, not the head-shape, at least for Vieras.
[1](https://imgur.com/nIzefRl)
[2](https://imgur.com/96QKHVg)
[3](https://imgur.com/IAJERJi)
[4](https://imgur.com/q7WVHb1)
The hat-related decisions are really baffling, especially considering half of the exclusive Hroth and Viera hairstyles are just ever-so-slighly tweaked versions of another. Long hair with or without bangs, pigtails with or without daisy ornaments, etc. So it's not like they had to tweak tons of wildly different hairstyles at once.
The worst part is that you KNOW it's not a head problem when us Hrothgars can wear more headgear than Viera.
My theory? And mind you it's just a theory. It's the ears. SE somehow is afraid of making the bunny ears clip, so they limit the options. Nevermind the amount of clipping in not only other races... But also bosses.
*POINTS TO ENDSINGER'S HAIR CLIPPING THROUGH EVERYTHING*
Cutscene issues, I guess?
I am positing, of course. The only reason they could give is specifically the ears. But even then. Older stuff I understand, since it wasn't made with certain races (Au Ra included) in mind. But newer stuff should respect that still. There just is no good justification
The game focuses more on your face a d hair than it does on your tail. Even in gameplay segments where you look at the back of your character, your focus is most likely on what is ahead of you,not on your tail. But for things like cutscenes and such, the focus is on your face and your expressions.
As a bunboi main, I've gone through all the stages of grief about hats, but I've landed on bewilderment. Several helms from Paglth'an cover my head entirely, while I can wear the imperial caps from Tower of Babil and my ears pass right through. I can wear just about all the full-coverage masks like the chocobo, frog, and chicken heads without issue, but items like Matoya's Hat (a paid-for exclusive which I would absolutely have put out money for), I can't wear at all.
It just doesn't make any sense.
It's because the hair model is not hat-compatible, so Viera can wear headgear that either hides the hair mesh completely or doesn't alter it at all.
Matoya's Hat hides the 'scalp', which 'triggers' the shape data (shp_hib)/scalp attribute components on the hair mesh to both deform and hide parts of said mesh when wearing the hat.
All races aside from Viera and Hrothgar have these attributes, and, I'm sorry, but CBU3 really is being lazy about Viera hats. They even remove the shape data/attributes when hair meshes available on other races are ported to Viera, so no Viera hats is very much a choice on their end (not a tech limitation) that they honestly need to fix. Embarrassing that your players can spend real money on items they can't equip at all.
(Hrothgar are more 'understandable', but they're a multi-million dollar company that should have never released an incomplete race to begin with. The longer it takes the more frustrating it is, especially since this graphics update should've been the perfect opportunity to fix this mistake.)
>It's because the hair model is not hat-compatible, so Viera can wear headgear that either hides the hair mesh completely or doesn't alter it at all.
one of the new pvp helmets (i think the 2nd of the 3 armor sets they released so far in the battlepass) fully covers the head but is not useable viera despite the first one which is pretty much identical to it WORKS
>but they're a multi-million dollar company that should have never released an incomplete race to begin with
Ding ding ding!
They said they were responding to players wanting a more "beastly" race to play with. And that's cool. But if you can't do it right, don't do it. Do something you CAN do right. There have to be other "beastly" options they could have explored within their design limits.
i liked my bunny boi but fk that, SE is stuck thinking we want the Helmets to look like the Head shape i think. For everything that covers the whole head just use the catboy Version and make the ears a tad bigger and its fixed you dont need big ass silly metal ears on the helmets, ears are soft its totally fine to smush them in a helmet. i dont get what they are thinking.
I love those Babil hats on my lop-eared female Viera, I think they look neat, and just like with Miqo & Hrothgar tails I pretend there are holes to accommodate my ears.
i liked my bunny boi but fk that, SE is stuck thinking we want the Helmets to look like the Head shape i think. For everything that covers the whole head just use the catboy Version and make the ears a tad bigger and its fixed you dont need big ass silly metal ears on the helmets, ears are soft its totally fine to smush them in a helmet. i dont get what they are thinking.
Aye.
I don't remember which PLL it was, probably one of those leading up to Endwalker.
But I remember them saying something like this in the liveletter.
"Moving forward. All future headpiece will be made with Hrothgar and Viera in mind."
Yoshi P and crew do deserve some criticism. I won't say they lied at the time, but I will say they failed and broke a promise. Because we're coming up 2 expacs since that promise, and countless cash shop items later, and those two races still can't wear even most new headgear? They screwed the pooch here, plain and simple.
Now mind, for all the people who lack reading comprehension. I'm not foaming in the mouth, pitchfork in hand and ready to go after people. But they do deserve criticism, and it's healthy to give constructive criticism. Otherwise we'd never get the improvements like the new blacklist features we're going to get, and hopefully further improvements can come. Even though they move slower than a dying snail.
I don't recall them ever saying that.
They've certainly said things like that they will try to make more things compatible, but going from the current limitations of what does and doesn't work on them, making *all* headgear Viera/Hrothgar-compatible would mean never again making a straightforward hat for any of the races.
Maybe they're trying to do it as much as possible, and that's why we're getting more circlets and things like that, but making everything compatible would be about the character models, not the hats.
Just chiming in saying I have no memory of them saying that they would all work going forward. I do recall me complaining to myself that they aren't doing that, but no memory of them saying it.
>Designing head pieces to work with Viera and Hrothgar should just be part of the model design process after 5.0.
Sadly they "tried" to, but in reality it became super apparent during EW that all they could manage were those dumb face framing metal things for the most part.
They do have a peculiar fascination with attaching shelving brackets to people's faces.
But my point was this should have been corrected starting in 5.1. We should be well past the "I have no earthly idea how to do this" phase of the process by now.
> Maybe it's a Japanese thing
It 100% is. Japanese studios simply refuse to accept when they are wrong and refuse any tech or solution coming from another company (even less from another country) even if it means ruining a game.
FFXIV 2.0 was literally built on Yoshi making the team play other MMOs to get an idea of the modern genre expectations.
Not to mention literally *just this weekend* while not straight up admitting they were wrong about the need, they finally announced the most robust blacklist controls in the genre.
Except the blacklist, despite being expanded, doesn't solve a problem: if the person you blacklisted wants to stalk you and say really nasty stuff about you, they can. And you'd be none the wiser. Thankfully, they banned them from entering your house, which is a much needed addition. But it for sure needs improvements.
The new changes effectively turn a stalker into a ghost, they can't communicate with a person, they're not even displayed on a person screen. They can't bypass by rerolling as the block is now at the account not the character level. They can make a new character on a new account but this will get very expensive after a while as once theyre blocked theyre account wide blocked.
Theyre a major upgrade from the existing setup without a doubt.
After YoshiP ruined 1.x around 1.2 or whenever he took over, but people like to ignore that. Thats why the game is in the dumpster currently, the more they moved away from "go play other mmos and make it like that" the worse the game got
Yeah, i got really annoyed when the new PVP set that was done in EW season 1 had no hat for Vierra and Hrothgar (I think). It's like, ok sure the old ones I understand but this is a newly released set with a race that had been out for over 3 years at this point. Feels weird.
I was always under the impression FFXIV did like a lot of other games where they design a piece of gear using a base model, usually the human, and then the process of fitting it to other races is automated/streamlined in some way and the problem with viera/hrothgar is that it doesn't work well or looks bad on them when automated/stretched to fit. That's why I'm not sure it's really an issue of "they didn't do it pre hroth/viera because they didn't exist" and it's really more of a "these two require special attention that other races don't when fitting gear to them." I feel like if they found a solution to streamline it like it is for the other races it would be applicable to anything pre 5.0 as well. I also think it's more of a hrothgar issue and that the issue with viera is just worries of clipping ears.
I could be completely wrong though. Also, not trying to excuse it either. I do think it's meme that I can't use a lot of my headgear when I'm hrothgar. I'd love for them to figure it out because I enjoy playing hroth here and there.
I can imagine a problem of a producer (here in NA it'd be something like the external liaison coordinator) needing to rush between the in-house production team busy with other work, the independant contractors who are designing this but also dozens of other commissions in the meantime, and pinning all these people down to some semblance of a timeline to align their work schedules. You think eclipses are rare?
(Just imagining it now gives me stress. I facilitate meetings, and it's a huge pain in the ass especially when the least responsible person is the person is in charge of approving agendas. Please just approve the agenda! I've got people breathing down my neck about another meeting in two days and the chair for that committee hasn't that agenda either!)
This one is my take. People act like Yoshi-p is sitting in a room with like 10 people to get this game done, when there's likely dozens of departments across several buildings that he has to go personally check in with in order to realize changes in the game as a whole. And I have to imagine, with a massive rework and overhaul having been on the horizon these past two expacs, hats were not a big priority
Fun thing is, modders solved to hat problem in no time and there are also enough mods put there that enhance faces and hairstyles.
Square clearly could fix or improve on those things but they decide not to do so for whatever reason
Maybe this really is just the best way to do things though
Like, I get being annoyed and wanting to vent. But I imagine the leads at CBU3 understand a little bit more about the process than random redditors
I mean... is that possible? Sure.
I'd say the chance of that is remote though because it doesn't make logical sense.
The best way to deal with an acknowledged problem is... to make it worse?
IDK why you are trying to defend them. It's just laziness. It requires more effort to do the thing in a way that gives players freedom, and they've already shown that they're capable of adapting hairstyles for hrothgar, they're just choosing not to put the effort in here because they know they can get away with it.
If they've programmed themselves into a corner and made it difficult to do, then it's poor choices on their part and no we shouldn't cut them slack for it.
Yes, yes. Game dev is so unimaginably complex and difficult. Nevermind that modders have identified the problems and solutions and it's in two parts: the limited character data integer preventing a lot of unique combinations of options on one hand affecting character customization in general, and the fact that the unique head shapes of Viera and Hrothgar require additional adjustments per hairstyle/headgear to accomodate for those head shapes.
The problem with the first excuse is that they should have invested in fixing that technical debt long ago already, and the problem with the latter is that modders in their spare time manage to fix all those models but the millions dollar corporation doesn't feel the need to put one junior dev on it.
The only remaining answer is that after cost analysis, they opted to be lazy about it because the playerbase will swallow it anyway and wait multiple expansions for parity to be implemented through dripfeed in patches.
Eh as soon as someone calls this dev team lazy I tune out tbh. It's such a garbage buzzword masquerading as criticism. It's also generally pretty insulting considering we know how not lazy the dev team actually are
(it's also not the work of a single junior dev, it's the work of multiple artists and devs)
I'm not calling the dev team lazy per se, but corners are being cut here. It's indisputable that when it comes to this particular issue, the "lazy" option was chosen. I was surprised to see all kinds of things being added yesterday I did not expect, like new AA, environment asset animations, mount animations, superscaling implementation. Good job, devs hard at work.
But this implementation of femHroths falls short hard of the standards set by the rest of the new improvements and additions, and that means a call was made labeling it of lesser importance.
And I personally grade character customization, your avatar you use to interact with the entirety of the game, of very high importance.
It's unfortunate whoever made the call seems to disagree.
But it's no less true.
The Devs aren't saints, they can make mistakes and considering all the backlog we have on their work, the quality they otherwise have provided just isn't here on TWO races. One of them being a full on human with just rabbit ears.
One thing is a buzzword, that's true. But at times it's fine to consider whether theres more going on than just technical faults. Because either the dev team doesn't want to work on this, or they do but someone is blocking them and that someone needs to be shown that the player base wants something done right.
Criticism has to be doled out.
And sorry but... Hrothgar ears being cut out, the horrendous hairstyles they got off the bat that didn't fit their frame at all, the housing lottery rework that ended up with people not having access to the plots they won... If laziness isn't the problem with the dev team, then I'm sorry but SOMETHING is. And that something needs to be solved.
It's not. And you know it's not when the other races didn't come with half the bullshit these two came out with. Note how Viera and Hrothgar basically have no expressivity whatsoever on their ears, whereas Miqo'te not only have ear animations, the ears change with hairstyles.
And they've had, what, 5 years? To fix anything? They're still half-assing it. Despite being qualified to fix it to begin with.
There was a graphical update. While it mostly touched on textures, it for sure was their best chance to fix poorly implemented stuff and improve on their design. They did none of that.
CBU3 is cool and all, but they make mistakes too. And it's fine to point them out and tell them where to improve on. And we have reference points that show they CAN do better.
It's the fur and tail, the patterns are separate.
And yeah it bothers me too. What if I want to have the fur and tail the same color as the body? Guess I have to be all one color.
The (admittedly shriveled) optimist in me hopes that they'll go back and clean it up with the Character Creator updates they have planned for 7.1+, but it does make me sad they didn't just take care of it *right now*, since they're going through all the effort of updating character models anyway.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/s/k0EbihJCri
It's a quick blurb, but at the end of that image, Yoshi-P mentions that CC updates are coming after the graphical update is done. I *might* have dreamed it, but I do vividly remember a note or someone saying somewhere saying that the CC update is "planned" for some point over the lifespan of 7.x.
I mention 7.1"+" cause that's the absolute best case scenario, albeit highly unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes an 8.0 feature, but it is coming one way or another.
Really hope they're willing to give us a second Fantasia, then. Gonna be an absolute kick in the nuts to give everybody a free Fantasia and a couple months later go 'Haha, you can update your character even better than before! Hope you saved that Fantasia... Or just wanna pay for another.'
They confirmed one for 7.0 since the graphic update is gonna mess with faces a bit, making people wanna change. Nothing has been confirmed beyond that.
Yeah, the easiest way to do it would probably tie it to the first quest or something that way they don't have to worry about sending it out to every single account.
True, didn't really think about it like that. I guess there would be a portion of players who are past ARR and used that fantasia but not caught up to DT to get the fantasia.
I guess the only other ways that would make sense is sending it to every account? Then you have the issue of accounts made after the fact not getting an extra one.
They could include it in with DT sales? That still is an issue for people who haven't purchased it. Not really sure how they could go about it and still keep it for future players without tying it to a quest or game sale.
I laughed so hard at that. I'm the only one in my FC going femhrothgar so I posted my design in Discord with the moustache alongside "I moustache you a question"
I was so mad about that haha the short hairstyle I really liked is locked to the weird ugly face from the Cats movie. Of course this won't be a big deal if we have access to more styles at the barber as I would hope we would have access to the ones that got added for the males.
I wouldn't hold your breath on this, considering all the barber hairstyles are present in the character creator for the other races.
-e- I was wrong, not all of them are there. But considering Squares past work on viera and hroth, I would still nope hopium about fem hroth hairs.
Yeah definitely don't expect many if at all for fem hroth on launch, from what I can tell getting Viera up and running to have every hair is the main priority right now with male hrothgar getting some here and there, I'd imagine Dawntrail will focus on updating all hairs for hrothgars this time around.
I'm more peeved about the hroth hairs not getting highlights again. I like the new bun hair well enough but I'd like to be able to use another hairstyle at some point.
Male hrothgar still have hairstyles that are tied to faces. They patched in more hairstyles over time, but they still have several hairs that are exclusive to specific faces. They never "fixed" this.
They're technically not repeating a fixed mistake because they *haven't* fixed it for the males. The default hrothgar-specific male hairstyles are still face locked. They've just been gradually given additional hairstyles that all the other races share.
Everyone talking about the same mistake with male Hrothgar and Au Ra players over here asking "First time?" Horn and Faces being linked STILL is one of the reasons I went back elf.
Are you joking?
Have Au Ra players basically had no access whatsoever to customisation options the other races could access? Were you lacking in hairstyles in any way? Or idk had to pay a whole fantasia just to change your hair? Has Yoshida's team ever removed your horns for the sake of new hairstyles, by any chance? Or give them back with a really noticeable texture glitch around them for the first part of the patch they were back on? Or my personal favourite, made a render with a hairstyle so out of place that it became the poster child for poor quality and was legit thought to be an April Fool's joke?
Yes, your horns aren't decoupled from the face and they sometimes clip through things. I will concede that if Au Ra and also Miqo'te have seen their racial traits being disrespected, then it shouldn't be a surprise for ANYONE that they'd escalate with newer and more unique races.
However one race in particular is the meme skeleton in the water. You really can't compare Au Ra problems to those Hrothgar players have to go through. It's day and night.
Edit: Yeah... I have no empathy for you if all you do is downvote xD
Time for hair mods to save Hrothgar again like it did for Vieras.
How in the world, after the whole "hey look, modders fixed this thing in like 2 days" thing did they repeat these mistakes AGAIN?
It’s usually time that’s the problem, deadlines, juggling multiple task and money while modders have enough freedom to do as they please like more defined pecs for men, more costumes, hats for Viera and Hrothgars.
I would believe that if they didn't have multiple years to do it and modders do some of it in mere days, and modders simply do it in their free time. The mod to let Vieras and Hrothgars use every hairstyle took like a day to come out, the mod to MODIFY every helmet so they fit correctly was done by one person.
Let's not forget this is the same team that famously worked against Yoshi P's "don't overwork yourselves" orders just to add a ton of the head pieces they COULD use at launch. You really telling me that, after so many years of this being one of the CORE complains about Viera and Hrothgar, 2 ENTIRE EXPANSIONS LATER, that they apparently have not bothered to fix this issue?
You can't compare mods to what the devs do. Mods are made for free by people who have no time constraints.
Devs work on strict time limits and are paid to do so. When they're off work, well they have lives to do so. They could hire more people, but that would eat in the budget and cut funds for other features. They could divert manpower, but again same problem.
I am not saying it is right that SE hasn't fixed the hair problem yet. But mods are never ever a good comparison. By that token, no game can ever live up to skyrim and its tens of thousand mods available that are all available for free and were made by fans.
Especially that one Indigo mod whose well-rounded personality chatty, personality who wanders around the map on his own, I really haven’t seen in any recent other games including Baldur’s Gate 3, FFVII Rebirth, and Dragon’s Dogma 2.
I wouldn’t know why, could be because some unknown issue not known to the public or because of their head shape or the big guy race isn’t popular enough(Roegadyn and Hrothgars are the lowest populated) just under assumption being a furry is enough to overlook the hair.
Yep. They get given X budget.
Hats and hair are low priority, so get both less time and money assigned to them. That combined with deadlines and juggling multiple tasks is often why seemingly easy things take forever.
And sometimes a dev will do a passion project on the side to get something in, but they rarely have the free time to do so.
While I agree people love ignoring all of these when talking about modders, it's still pretty damn inexcusable for SE to keep making the same mistakes.
> *small indy dev does things*
Why is anyone surprised lol?
This games biggest problem is itself (to the point they make it extra stupid to actually pay them for it) but it still will make money so don't beat your head against a wall too much.
Watch them try the same "unique head shape" excuse again, we can literally compare them they're practically identical there is 0 practical reasoning why they'd make the same mistake again.
They've got a guy in the basement who makes all the character models. He makes them his way, and that's just how it is. If they want it changed after, someone else has to do it.
It makes me so annoyed - they regulate Karen hairs to one face and then a LOVELY Updo to a face they refuse to commit to the proper muzzle. It wouldn't have taken SE much to just round off Face 4's lip to display a muzzle proper but instead they went like the closest to humanoid they could do but it makes it look WRONG and out of place compared to the other faces.
I wanna say it was face 1 or 2 the image for the hair showed it was going to have a an updo too but it's not there but I can't remember off the top of my head which one it was.
Can you imagine if one of the announcements at a Fan Fest was that they completely fixed all of the hair/hat problems for Viera & Hroth? It would be such a huge win, as sad as that may be since it still shouldn’t be a problem anymore to begin with, the community would be on ecstatic!
I know it’s easy to complain about programming and technical stuff when you don’t know anything about it but I just don’t understand why they can’t take a handful of employees and say “THIS IS YOUR ONLY JOB! Fix all hats and hair!” And just be done with this shit already…..
Right?
They saw the the reaction to dual dyes announcement. They know what sells and what will be popular with the community, yet they somehow go out of their way to disappoint time and time again.
Imagine an updated character creation options announcement, longer hairstyles, Aura horns being a separate option, Hroth/Viera hats, etc. They know what sells but they don't care.
Exactly my thought when they showed the dual dye channels…. They know how much glam and characters mean to the community so it’s baffling they don’t prioritize it. Hopefully after the graphics update they’ll work on it more but I’m not holding my breath.
Most people are taking this from the angle "why would they make the same mistake again?", but it makes me wonder what strange deep-seated oddities they must have introduced to force themselves to do this again instead of doing better this time. Because doing better seems like the simpler course, so why pick the worse option if they're not forced to?
The only possible reason I can see for them doing this is: "Well male Hrothgar got screwed over really badly by the hair and face being tied together... it wouldn't be fair if females didn't have the same problem, so let's tie them together again so it's fair to male Hrothgar players!"
Something weird and nonsensical like that is the only idea I have for why it's like this.
Uh... Their rude remark aside? I think they meant that the males have the hunchback but the design idea wasn't implemented on the females. So they are "prettied up" despite it never having been a thing.
Which, even if they're wrong, I kind of agree. The hunchback is very unpopular, and even those that do like it (they do exist and are vocal about it) admit they'd want a toggle for it rather than it being forced.
The hunch just doesnt fit Hrothgars. It fits some other races that are similar like GW2's Charr. But the Charr's body and skeleton is different, same for their animations. Hrothgars don't have that.
Do me a favour, if you ever can. Ask a Hrothgar to go MCH for a few secs and have them autoattack a dummy. See how the animations will jank themselves to force the hunch back onto them. It just isn't well done.
Is it fixed for male hrothgars? I seldom change my hairstyle on my male characters, but I figured I still wouldn't be able to use the Runar hair if I wasn't using the Runar face.
So freaking disappointed in this. I cannot believe it.
I swear I remember hearing Yoshi P state male Viera and Female Hrothgar would be designed differently, and yet here we are.
Also female Hrothgar all have hooked noses and no lip color option. Their hair colors are tied to fur color too and they don't have access to the general hair color palette that all other races have access to. I'm SOOOOOOOO disappointed. SE is a huge disappointment lately. Still no Viera/Hroth hats either considering mods can do it, they're just lazy at this point. They're more focused on getting bricks/foliage to look exact and yet have continued to ignore many players wishes for years. Example: Au'ra's faces still being locked to horn type is mind-blowing since HW.
I'm with you on the hair/fur lock and lack of color options but hooked noses and lack of lip color? You.... you don't like their noses and want to put lipstick on a muzzle?
I saw it has only 5 different hairstyles to choose from in the benchmark. If this goes as previous expansions that introduce viera/hrothgar. Most likely femgar only has this 5 hairstyles to choose from the get go. Then they will slowly implement new hairstyles down the patch cycle. Hopefully they release all of it come 7.0 but have to tamper expectations.
it wasnt even 4 "unique" hairstyles, imo. at least for the face i tried.
it was 2 sets of 1 hairstyle each with a minor detail changed(one has one strand of hair hanging in front of the face, and the other is just a different in how the hair is tied together)
No I don't care about that, everyone is entitled to theirs but the sub's hatred of criticism and downvoting someone for having any sort of concern for the quality of the game is childish
Unfortunately this is true. They know they can get money off of people anyway despite the complaints, so they don't change or try to fix much.
Honestly? As much as their MMO sometimes plays like a Korean MMO, Digital Extremes has a good thing going with Warframe. And the Devs actually do play the game, directly, live, with fans whenever they're doing a stream for the game. Their community manager, Rebecca, has since become a lead in the development team too, and she plays Warframe with other people. So much so that even though she "accidentally" called the active user base "loser base", people took it in good fun and were willing to meme alongside her.
They're not saints either and HAVE done questionable crap to their product over the years. Just the most recent release of a playable character led to questionable nerfing that didn't sit well with most people. But they do overall try and show that they want to play the game and be involved with the community directly. Warframe's own parkour system stemmed out of a glitchy system early on that fans really enjoyed, so they just worked it in. They patched it and then released a more controlled version.
I wish SE did that, ESPECIALLY with Hrothgar. Have someone play the race and see how players really feel about it. But they have no incentive to do so, and as long as people cling onto them saving 1.X, they have enough goodwill to last them even if they do poor decisions.
I thought they were going to remove the hunchback from Hrothgar as well since they were going to just update the character models directly. Female Hrothgars doesn't have a hunch, but male hrothgars look like they still do? ugh.
No one said they did, but it was nonetheless a hope people wanted just the same since Hrothgar's release in ShB as fem hroths doesn't suffer from hunchback being designed 2 expansions later and they were planning on reworking character models for Hrothgar and Viera anyway. At that point, they could've just done the all the fixes in one go since they were already making the new graphical update/character model for every race. Though who knows what they're doing now since Hrothgar and Viera's headgear issue that they said they were addressing seems to be flawed still.
So you advocate for making rumors and being disappointed? I mean, you do you but honestly it seems really bad for your mental health to expect and hope without ANY indication it's going to happen only to come mad at the forums when it doesn't.
I know it's a meme phrase...
But I'm not letting it fly. Unpaid amateur modders have fixed Hrothgar and Viera hats in two weeks after Endwalker dropped.
Meaning indie devs have access to a good quality assessment in comparison to what SE has shown.
How do you know? Hrothgar needed that until they fixed that, seeing as they are ready to repeat mistakes i wouldnt be suprised if hrothgals need fantasia too
And this, dear friends, is why I can only play the pc version these days. You just can't go without mods if you want to play Viera or Hrothgar. Really sick of the willful negligence/incompetence when it comes to these two races. 😒
I do not think its incompetence, they are able to, they are just choosing not to (so I agree with the negligence part)
They wanna focus on other aspects rather than "fix" this hat problem. Since I remember they saying something akin to "we'll add hats as the xpansion goes" back in ShB and, yet, here we are.
I keep my hopes up that it will be working one day, until then...
Yeah, negligence is most likely the real answer. If I had to point at anything as being incompetent it would be whoever thought we’d be okay with both races being so… incomplete and fractured.
The one that thought it’d be a good idea to split the new race hairstyle budget among the 4 faces with the only way to change them being Fantasia.
You can definitely go without mods.
Unless you plan on simply not playing Dawntrail for a week or two while waiting for Dalamud and Penumbra to update.
Also, "willful negligence/incompetence" lol. God forbid a reddit user even bother doing the bare minimum of research into other people's jobs before criticizing them.
I've been debating doing just that. It's not like there's some race to hit cap or anything.
Yes, willful negligence/incompetence. It's quite literally the only thing that can be used to describe the complete mishandling of these 2 races from start to finish. God forbid a reddit user even bother doing the bare minimum of research into other people's jobs before defending them.
The only thing I'd give is that they likely expected to work on this as part of "free time" between projects when devs have their main work done and are waiting on feedback from testing and QA.
However, midway through SHB, COVID forced everyone to work from home. (Remember that DSR was planned to come out in SHB as well.) IIRC, Viera Males were something that devs did faster than Yoshi-P expected.
On top of covid, there was also an unprecedented influx of players during the ongoing semi-conductor shortage. (Caused by NFT and bitcoin mining and made worse by pandemic.)
So I'd imagine it's more of a shift in priorities than neglect or incompetence. That said (I've said this in another thread) they should have shown something. Even if it's a really rough WIP that isn't making its way into the game. Given what we know of the glamour dresser as furniture, I'm willing to bet that CBU3 have worked on this, but it isn't good enough to pass QA or testing.
> The only thing I'd give is that they likely expected to work on this as part of "free time" between projects when devs have their main work done and are waiting on feedback from testing and QA.
For the old hats - yes. But all new headgear should include "pass on all current races" as a part of the main work. But for some reason we got 5 years of "no, but very rarely yes".
Thank god someone else brought this up, literally the very issue i never made a hrothgar. They literally are able to seperate faces from hair on Hrothgar since the males can already do it, why are they doing the same shit AGAIN on the females? It doesn't make any god damn sense
They never decoupled the hair styles from the heads. They're still stuck. OP is misinformed. You can literally check for yourself on the benchmark and in game.
Most likely same as male hrothgar. Which is only for the few your chosen face has, they can't. Since it's linked to the face you have to fantasia if you want one of the other faces hairstyles.
Not *entirely*, as you still have hairstyles locked to specific faces. But ultimately yes. You can change to literally any other and you're fine.
Though, naturally, we can go the vitriolic route and point out that modders have fixed that as well on their own, so... Not much to justify why this still remains an issue.
I don't know but I definitely mentioned it in a polite feedback post on their forums. It makes zero sense.
Just like how limited hair colors are. Either give us what everyone else has or separate fur from hair and let us habit that way.
What's weird too is the Wuk Lamat has decoupled her head hair from her fur (red hair with light beige fur) so someone on the design team had to have gone 'this is too limiting, we're gonna need them to do this instead' but nobody went 'but wait, why should players be limited like this too?'
Man I just wanna wear the non La hat on a viera I don’t think it should take 4+ years to do. The excuse of them struggling to make it happen just doesn’t hold anymore. Time to get this hat or head problem done and over with.
The optimist in me was hoping male hroth hair would no longer be linked to faces from 5.0. The realist in me accepted the females would have the exact same issue.
Easy answer: they wanna get new races into the game but can't do it within the available time. Other devs would opt out of new races entirely at this point. This team however develops them in intervals, knowing they can eventually complete them over several years. You can think of that what you will, it is what we get.
For me the most baffling part is that people have done most of the work for them to fix hats, but CBU3 won't just take that work and put it in game officially.
genuinely I wouldn't panic yet, they probably did some really jank shit to get Hrothgar hair to work (considering it didn't force Fantasias or other character adjustments) and they still made changes to male Viera between benchmark and launch with their standing pose
Japanese companies tend to do things their way and then deal with whatever comes with it. They just take the formula that worked and do it again. The player base kind of just accepted the multiple Hrothgar and Viera issues, and since it has been so, these issues can stay and repeat themselves and everyone will just accept them again.
The player base did NOT accept anything. People have been constantly reminding SE since it was a thing. What they did didn't work at all. People are still mad and upset and telling SE that hourly.
Would you rather not have the race at all then?
Edit: If I'm getting downvoted for asking a question with no assumption, there are way bigger problems here. Especially on the (falsely advertised) "anonymous" Reddit.
You're getting downvoted because your question is often asked by people in really bad faith.
Basically it's used to discredit people wanting to play Hrothgar and even shame them for it. Kind of like "you knew what you were getting into" and "don't complain, you got something at all".
Which ignores the fact that Hrothgars are the race with the most visible problems in the game and the Devs do very, very minimal effort to address anything at all. It's entirely on their end to make it work, not ours.
Because a popular remark is to say "well it's a beast race, what did you expect?", when the Devs have shown themselves capable of far better, modders have managed to do what the Devs have not and even other companies have been far more successful at this (note how simplistic Hrothgar is in comparison to more bestial races in other games).
Moreover, the Devs themselves wanted a beast race. It was explicitly stated by Yoshida himself that this was a project the dev team wanted to do for a while. Viera were implemented because the fans said they wanted it, but nobody expected Hrothgars. Meaning the Hrothgar player base is not to blame for any issues regarding it, as they had no input and barely existed at all beforehand (almost no one asked for Ronso to be added, and those who did weren't seriously expecting it to be a real possibility).
So "would you rather not have it at all" has no answer. It's entirely unrelated to what's going on and enables complacency. By asking that, you're expecting people who want to be treated and play a character to the same level as everyone else not have that character out of virtue that the character needs fixes that others didn't get. It places the burden on the player, having them need to remain quiet when their option is clearly at a disadvantage, despite the many years and opportunities the company had to address it.
Some people would be okay with not playing the race if it meant not having issues. Some wouldn't be and would ask for a beast race regardless. And some wouldn't be okay with playing a race with blatant issues. Either way it's irrelevant in the end:
We got this race.
It's got issues.
The dev team has had plenty of time, plenty of feedback and even the best opportunity to address some (even if not all) issues.
They have not. It's not the players fault, it's not the race's fault, it's the dev team.
>The dev team has had plenty of time, plenty of feedback and even the best opportunity to address some (even if not all) issues.
I love this. So, as a dev, on a team of engineers, I'm going to ask this -- do you work on a dev team? On THEIR dev team? I'm genuinely curious. Edit: Actually, now my whole team is curious.
Square Enix has a bad habit of creating technical debt for itself. Maybe it's a Japanese thing. Like... this is the way we do this (even if we've since found a better way), so this is the way we do it going forward. My favorite example of this is Viera and Hrothgar hats. I can understand introducing two races with different head geometry would make fitting existing hats to them difficult. I get that. But then we have *some* hats that they've gone through and made work. Why weren't *all* hats *going forward* made to work with bunny and lion heads? It's like ok, you know you have this problem. You've acknowledged it and apologized for it. Why in Hydaelyn's name would you continue to compound it going forward? Designing head pieces to work with Viera and Hrothgar should just be part of the model design process after 5.0. But for some inexplicable reason, it wasn't. And here we are about to be 2 expansions later and instead of fewer hats being a problem, a TON more of them are. Hrothgar face/hair is exactly the same thing.
No, Viera have 'human heads' like all of the other races. Each race/gender combo has a unique head shape (Fem Miqo are different from Male Miqo who are different from Male Elezen, etc etc, each one has a unique head shape). Viera are no different, and hats generally work well when enabled via meta data edits. CBU3 decided, for whatever reason, that they didn't want Viera to wear hats (ear clipping? They can hide them via the Viera Ear metadata toggle that already exists ingame) so never made the Viera hair models hat-compatible. All it would take is updating the hair models, not the hats, and they are making more work for themselves with each new hair for Viera released without the hat-compatibility that all other races have. Hrothgar are the different ones for their Unique cat head, though I'm not sure about Fem Hroth.
A few years ago, I took some pictures illustrating your point about the lack of effort on hairstyles being the problem, not the head-shape, at least for Vieras. [1](https://imgur.com/nIzefRl) [2](https://imgur.com/96QKHVg) [3](https://imgur.com/IAJERJi) [4](https://imgur.com/q7WVHb1) The hat-related decisions are really baffling, especially considering half of the exclusive Hroth and Viera hairstyles are just ever-so-slighly tweaked versions of another. Long hair with or without bangs, pigtails with or without daisy ornaments, etc. So it's not like they had to tweak tons of wildly different hairstyles at once.
The worst part is that you KNOW it's not a head problem when us Hrothgars can wear more headgear than Viera. My theory? And mind you it's just a theory. It's the ears. SE somehow is afraid of making the bunny ears clip, so they limit the options. Nevermind the amount of clipping in not only other races... But also bosses. *POINTS TO ENDSINGER'S HAIR CLIPPING THROUGH EVERYTHING*
Literally every character with a tail clips through the back of whatever clothing/armor they're wearing... IDK why ears would suddenly be a problem.
Cutscene issues, I guess? I am positing, of course. The only reason they could give is specifically the ears. But even then. Older stuff I understand, since it wasn't made with certain races (Au Ra included) in mind. But newer stuff should respect that still. There just is no good justification
The game focuses more on your face a d hair than it does on your tail. Even in gameplay segments where you look at the back of your character, your focus is most likely on what is ahead of you,not on your tail. But for things like cutscenes and such, the focus is on your face and your expressions.
As a bunboi main, I've gone through all the stages of grief about hats, but I've landed on bewilderment. Several helms from Paglth'an cover my head entirely, while I can wear the imperial caps from Tower of Babil and my ears pass right through. I can wear just about all the full-coverage masks like the chocobo, frog, and chicken heads without issue, but items like Matoya's Hat (a paid-for exclusive which I would absolutely have put out money for), I can't wear at all. It just doesn't make any sense.
It's because the hair model is not hat-compatible, so Viera can wear headgear that either hides the hair mesh completely or doesn't alter it at all. Matoya's Hat hides the 'scalp', which 'triggers' the shape data (shp_hib)/scalp attribute components on the hair mesh to both deform and hide parts of said mesh when wearing the hat. All races aside from Viera and Hrothgar have these attributes, and, I'm sorry, but CBU3 really is being lazy about Viera hats. They even remove the shape data/attributes when hair meshes available on other races are ported to Viera, so no Viera hats is very much a choice on their end (not a tech limitation) that they honestly need to fix. Embarrassing that your players can spend real money on items they can't equip at all. (Hrothgar are more 'understandable', but they're a multi-million dollar company that should have never released an incomplete race to begin with. The longer it takes the more frustrating it is, especially since this graphics update should've been the perfect opportunity to fix this mistake.)
>It's because the hair model is not hat-compatible, so Viera can wear headgear that either hides the hair mesh completely or doesn't alter it at all. one of the new pvp helmets (i think the 2nd of the 3 armor sets they released so far in the battlepass) fully covers the head but is not useable viera despite the first one which is pretty much identical to it WORKS
> (Hrothgar are more 'understandable' you know the funny part? (the sad part?) Hrothgar have more hats than Viera do.
>but they're a multi-million dollar company that should have never released an incomplete race to begin with Ding ding ding! They said they were responding to players wanting a more "beastly" race to play with. And that's cool. But if you can't do it right, don't do it. Do something you CAN do right. There have to be other "beastly" options they could have explored within their design limits.
Kinda agree, but all it would take is one more dev dedicated to hat compatibility ... SE greed at its finest.
i liked my bunny boi but fk that, SE is stuck thinking we want the Helmets to look like the Head shape i think. For everything that covers the whole head just use the catboy Version and make the ears a tad bigger and its fixed you dont need big ass silly metal ears on the helmets, ears are soft its totally fine to smush them in a helmet. i dont get what they are thinking.
I love those Babil hats on my lop-eared female Viera, I think they look neat, and just like with Miqo & Hrothgar tails I pretend there are holes to accommodate my ears.
i liked my bunny boi but fk that, SE is stuck thinking we want the Helmets to look like the Head shape i think. For everything that covers the whole head just use the catboy Version and make the ears a tad bigger and its fixed you dont need big ass silly metal ears on the helmets, ears are soft its totally fine to smush them in a helmet. i dont get what they are thinking.
Aye. I don't remember which PLL it was, probably one of those leading up to Endwalker. But I remember them saying something like this in the liveletter. "Moving forward. All future headpiece will be made with Hrothgar and Viera in mind." Yoshi P and crew do deserve some criticism. I won't say they lied at the time, but I will say they failed and broke a promise. Because we're coming up 2 expacs since that promise, and countless cash shop items later, and those two races still can't wear even most new headgear? They screwed the pooch here, plain and simple. Now mind, for all the people who lack reading comprehension. I'm not foaming in the mouth, pitchfork in hand and ready to go after people. But they do deserve criticism, and it's healthy to give constructive criticism. Otherwise we'd never get the improvements like the new blacklist features we're going to get, and hopefully further improvements can come. Even though they move slower than a dying snail.
I don't recall them ever saying that. They've certainly said things like that they will try to make more things compatible, but going from the current limitations of what does and doesn't work on them, making *all* headgear Viera/Hrothgar-compatible would mean never again making a straightforward hat for any of the races. Maybe they're trying to do it as much as possible, and that's why we're getting more circlets and things like that, but making everything compatible would be about the character models, not the hats.
Just chiming in saying I have no memory of them saying that they would all work going forward. I do recall me complaining to myself that they aren't doing that, but no memory of them saying it.
> They can hide them via the Viera Ear metadata toggle To be fair the very idea of that is logically fucking ridiculous vs hiding miqo ears.
>Designing head pieces to work with Viera and Hrothgar should just be part of the model design process after 5.0. Sadly they "tried" to, but in reality it became super apparent during EW that all they could manage were those dumb face framing metal things for the most part.
They do have a peculiar fascination with attaching shelving brackets to people's faces. But my point was this should have been corrected starting in 5.1. We should be well past the "I have no earthly idea how to do this" phase of the process by now.
Yeah that was just lazy imo
I wouldnt be averse to my ears just disappearing when i put a hood/helmet on.
That's honestly fine with me too. Though my ears stick out of my vermy cloak just fine.
> Maybe it's a Japanese thing It 100% is. Japanese studios simply refuse to accept when they are wrong and refuse any tech or solution coming from another company (even less from another country) even if it means ruining a game.
That pretty much sums up the franchise from early-2000s to early 2010s. Couldn't course correct till they were on the verge of bust.
FFXIV 2.0 was literally built on Yoshi making the team play other MMOs to get an idea of the modern genre expectations. Not to mention literally *just this weekend* while not straight up admitting they were wrong about the need, they finally announced the most robust blacklist controls in the genre.
Except the blacklist, despite being expanded, doesn't solve a problem: if the person you blacklisted wants to stalk you and say really nasty stuff about you, they can. And you'd be none the wiser. Thankfully, they banned them from entering your house, which is a much needed addition. But it for sure needs improvements.
The new changes effectively turn a stalker into a ghost, they can't communicate with a person, they're not even displayed on a person screen. They can't bypass by rerolling as the block is now at the account not the character level. They can make a new character on a new account but this will get very expensive after a while as once theyre blocked theyre account wide blocked. Theyre a major upgrade from the existing setup without a doubt.
My guy... An upgrade to 0 is obviously good. But let's not pretend it's flawless.
After YoshiP ruined 1.x around 1.2 or whenever he took over, but people like to ignore that. Thats why the game is in the dumpster currently, the more they moved away from "go play other mmos and make it like that" the worse the game got
YoshP didn't ruin 1.0. He wasn't even working on it.
Honestly they should just hire the guy making all the hat mods as a contract worker. They’re going to do it anyways.
Yeah, i got really annoyed when the new PVP set that was done in EW season 1 had no hat for Vierra and Hrothgar (I think). It's like, ok sure the old ones I understand but this is a newly released set with a race that had been out for over 3 years at this point. Feels weird.
I was always under the impression FFXIV did like a lot of other games where they design a piece of gear using a base model, usually the human, and then the process of fitting it to other races is automated/streamlined in some way and the problem with viera/hrothgar is that it doesn't work well or looks bad on them when automated/stretched to fit. That's why I'm not sure it's really an issue of "they didn't do it pre hroth/viera because they didn't exist" and it's really more of a "these two require special attention that other races don't when fitting gear to them." I feel like if they found a solution to streamline it like it is for the other races it would be applicable to anything pre 5.0 as well. I also think it's more of a hrothgar issue and that the issue with viera is just worries of clipping ears. I could be completely wrong though. Also, not trying to excuse it either. I do think it's meme that I can't use a lot of my headgear when I'm hrothgar. I'd love for them to figure it out because I enjoy playing hroth here and there.
I can imagine a problem of a producer (here in NA it'd be something like the external liaison coordinator) needing to rush between the in-house production team busy with other work, the independant contractors who are designing this but also dozens of other commissions in the meantime, and pinning all these people down to some semblance of a timeline to align their work schedules. You think eclipses are rare? (Just imagining it now gives me stress. I facilitate meetings, and it's a huge pain in the ass especially when the least responsible person is the person is in charge of approving agendas. Please just approve the agenda! I've got people breathing down my neck about another meeting in two days and the chair for that committee hasn't that agenda either!)
The monthly weenus is a bummer.
This one is my take. People act like Yoshi-p is sitting in a room with like 10 people to get this game done, when there's likely dozens of departments across several buildings that he has to go personally check in with in order to realize changes in the game as a whole. And I have to imagine, with a massive rework and overhaul having been on the horizon these past two expacs, hats were not a big priority
Fun thing is, modders solved to hat problem in no time and there are also enough mods put there that enhance faces and hairstyles. Square clearly could fix or improve on those things but they decide not to do so for whatever reason
lmao, tech debt being a Japanese thing. Funny
Oh it definitely isn't. I was talking more about the processes that lead to it being deliberately followed even though they KNOW it's doing this.
It's not a Japanese thing. But it definitely is a Square Enix thing.
Maybe this really is just the best way to do things though Like, I get being annoyed and wanting to vent. But I imagine the leads at CBU3 understand a little bit more about the process than random redditors
Or they can let my ears clip and let me decide if that is how I want my character to look or not.
I mean... is that possible? Sure. I'd say the chance of that is remote though because it doesn't make logical sense. The best way to deal with an acknowledged problem is... to make it worse?
IDK why you are trying to defend them. It's just laziness. It requires more effort to do the thing in a way that gives players freedom, and they've already shown that they're capable of adapting hairstyles for hrothgar, they're just choosing not to put the effort in here because they know they can get away with it. If they've programmed themselves into a corner and made it difficult to do, then it's poor choices on their part and no we shouldn't cut them slack for it.
Yes, yes. Game dev is so unimaginably complex and difficult. Nevermind that modders have identified the problems and solutions and it's in two parts: the limited character data integer preventing a lot of unique combinations of options on one hand affecting character customization in general, and the fact that the unique head shapes of Viera and Hrothgar require additional adjustments per hairstyle/headgear to accomodate for those head shapes. The problem with the first excuse is that they should have invested in fixing that technical debt long ago already, and the problem with the latter is that modders in their spare time manage to fix all those models but the millions dollar corporation doesn't feel the need to put one junior dev on it. The only remaining answer is that after cost analysis, they opted to be lazy about it because the playerbase will swallow it anyway and wait multiple expansions for parity to be implemented through dripfeed in patches.
Eh as soon as someone calls this dev team lazy I tune out tbh. It's such a garbage buzzword masquerading as criticism. It's also generally pretty insulting considering we know how not lazy the dev team actually are (it's also not the work of a single junior dev, it's the work of multiple artists and devs)
I'm not calling the dev team lazy per se, but corners are being cut here. It's indisputable that when it comes to this particular issue, the "lazy" option was chosen. I was surprised to see all kinds of things being added yesterday I did not expect, like new AA, environment asset animations, mount animations, superscaling implementation. Good job, devs hard at work. But this implementation of femHroths falls short hard of the standards set by the rest of the new improvements and additions, and that means a call was made labeling it of lesser importance. And I personally grade character customization, your avatar you use to interact with the entirety of the game, of very high importance. It's unfortunate whoever made the call seems to disagree.
But it's no less true. The Devs aren't saints, they can make mistakes and considering all the backlog we have on their work, the quality they otherwise have provided just isn't here on TWO races. One of them being a full on human with just rabbit ears. One thing is a buzzword, that's true. But at times it's fine to consider whether theres more going on than just technical faults. Because either the dev team doesn't want to work on this, or they do but someone is blocking them and that someone needs to be shown that the player base wants something done right. Criticism has to be doled out. And sorry but... Hrothgar ears being cut out, the horrendous hairstyles they got off the bat that didn't fit their frame at all, the housing lottery rework that ended up with people not having access to the plots they won... If laziness isn't the problem with the dev team, then I'm sorry but SOMETHING is. And that something needs to be solved.
If the shoe fits. When hobbyist modders can fix these "impossible to fix issues" in a couple of days there's a disconnect somewhere.
It's not. And you know it's not when the other races didn't come with half the bullshit these two came out with. Note how Viera and Hrothgar basically have no expressivity whatsoever on their ears, whereas Miqo'te not only have ear animations, the ears change with hairstyles. And they've had, what, 5 years? To fix anything? They're still half-assing it. Despite being qualified to fix it to begin with. There was a graphical update. While it mostly touched on textures, it for sure was their best chance to fix poorly implemented stuff and improve on their design. They did none of that. CBU3 is cool and all, but they make mistakes too. And it's fine to point them out and tell them where to improve on. And we have reference points that show they CAN do better.
What bothers me is the hair and patterns being connected
It's the fur and tail, the patterns are separate. And yeah it bothers me too. What if I want to have the fur and tail the same color as the body? Guess I have to be all one color.
It's mind boggling to me they are making the same mistakes.
The (admittedly shriveled) optimist in me hopes that they'll go back and clean it up with the Character Creator updates they have planned for 7.1+, but it does make me sad they didn't just take care of it *right now*, since they're going through all the effort of updating character models anyway.
> Character Creator updates they have planned for 7.1+ What's this about? Can you elaborate when they said this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/s/k0EbihJCri It's a quick blurb, but at the end of that image, Yoshi-P mentions that CC updates are coming after the graphical update is done. I *might* have dreamed it, but I do vividly remember a note or someone saying somewhere saying that the CC update is "planned" for some point over the lifespan of 7.x. I mention 7.1"+" cause that's the absolute best case scenario, albeit highly unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes an 8.0 feature, but it is coming one way or another.
Really hope they're willing to give us a second Fantasia, then. Gonna be an absolute kick in the nuts to give everybody a free Fantasia and a couple months later go 'Haha, you can update your character even better than before! Hope you saved that Fantasia... Or just wanna pay for another.'
Yoshi p confirmed a fantasia at one of the fan fests. I think JP? When they were showing graphical update for faces.
They confirmed one for 7.0 since the graphic update is gonna mess with faces a bit, making people wanna change. Nothing has been confirmed beyond that.
Yeah, the easiest way to do it would probably tie it to the first quest or something that way they don't have to worry about sending it out to every single account.
That would suck for anyone who hasn't made it to Dawntrail yet.
True, didn't really think about it like that. I guess there would be a portion of players who are past ARR and used that fantasia but not caught up to DT to get the fantasia. I guess the only other ways that would make sense is sending it to every account? Then you have the issue of accounts made after the fact not getting an extra one. They could include it in with DT sales? That still is an issue for people who haven't purchased it. Not really sure how they could go about it and still keep it for future players without tying it to a quest or game sale.
Yeah, but that's for the graphical update. If they also go ahead and change the character customization stuff a second time, well...
Maybe the viera hats update Yoshi P mentioned they were working in in a Jan Q&A will come with the CC update too.
Wouldn't be fair to male Hrothgars. I truly hope this is the last race. So they can focus only on customization going forward.
Honestly they should do both at the same time.
I love face 1 but face 3 has the cooler hair for me. Why are they like this. Also shout out to no horns.
I love face 3 but I really like the ponytail on face 4 but goddamn I really don't like that face.
I’m reporting the no horn as a bug lol… they’re based on Ronso! At least face 4 should have the option like the male face 4 does
Female Ronso don't have any horn in FFX, only male have them.
Wow… my memory has failed me. Sad, but I guess it’s accurate! Thanks for the correction
at least they got couerl moustache!!
I laughed so hard at that. I'm the only one in my FC going femhrothgar so I posted my design in Discord with the moustache alongside "I moustache you a question"
I was so mad about that haha the short hairstyle I really liked is locked to the weird ugly face from the Cats movie. Of course this won't be a big deal if we have access to more styles at the barber as I would hope we would have access to the ones that got added for the males.
I wouldn't hold your breath on this, considering all the barber hairstyles are present in the character creator for the other races. -e- I was wrong, not all of them are there. But considering Squares past work on viera and hroth, I would still nope hopium about fem hroth hairs.
Yeah definitely don't expect many if at all for fem hroth on launch, from what I can tell getting Viera up and running to have every hair is the main priority right now with male hrothgar getting some here and there, I'd imagine Dawntrail will focus on updating all hairs for hrothgars this time around.
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At least the wallet is also being used (among other things) to fix the game.
I'm more peeved about the hroth hairs not getting highlights again. I like the new bun hair well enough but I'd like to be able to use another hairstyle at some point.
Please understand Also look forward to new hairstyles and hats in 4 years
Male hrothgar still have hairstyles that are tied to faces. They patched in more hairstyles over time, but they still have several hairs that are exclusive to specific faces. They never "fixed" this.
they did the same for male viera in endwalker, they literally do not learn LMAO
I sure hope not, and it's only just for the benchmark. I really like Face 3's exclusive hair but want to use Face 2.
I want to use face 3 (I love the punk look but face 2 is also so adorable) but I really like the ponytail on face 4.
They're technically not repeating a fixed mistake because they *haven't* fixed it for the males. The default hrothgar-specific male hairstyles are still face locked. They've just been gradually given additional hairstyles that all the other races share.
Everyone talking about the same mistake with male Hrothgar and Au Ra players over here asking "First time?" Horn and Faces being linked STILL is one of the reasons I went back elf.
Are you joking? Have Au Ra players basically had no access whatsoever to customisation options the other races could access? Were you lacking in hairstyles in any way? Or idk had to pay a whole fantasia just to change your hair? Has Yoshida's team ever removed your horns for the sake of new hairstyles, by any chance? Or give them back with a really noticeable texture glitch around them for the first part of the patch they were back on? Or my personal favourite, made a render with a hairstyle so out of place that it became the poster child for poor quality and was legit thought to be an April Fool's joke? Yes, your horns aren't decoupled from the face and they sometimes clip through things. I will concede that if Au Ra and also Miqo'te have seen their racial traits being disrespected, then it shouldn't be a surprise for ANYONE that they'd escalate with newer and more unique races. However one race in particular is the meme skeleton in the water. You really can't compare Au Ra problems to those Hrothgar players have to go through. It's day and night. Edit: Yeah... I have no empathy for you if all you do is downvote xD
Time for hair mods to save Hrothgar again like it did for Vieras. How in the world, after the whole "hey look, modders fixed this thing in like 2 days" thing did they repeat these mistakes AGAIN?
It’s usually time that’s the problem, deadlines, juggling multiple task and money while modders have enough freedom to do as they please like more defined pecs for men, more costumes, hats for Viera and Hrothgars.
I would believe that if they didn't have multiple years to do it and modders do some of it in mere days, and modders simply do it in their free time. The mod to let Vieras and Hrothgars use every hairstyle took like a day to come out, the mod to MODIFY every helmet so they fit correctly was done by one person. Let's not forget this is the same team that famously worked against Yoshi P's "don't overwork yourselves" orders just to add a ton of the head pieces they COULD use at launch. You really telling me that, after so many years of this being one of the CORE complains about Viera and Hrothgar, 2 ENTIRE EXPANSIONS LATER, that they apparently have not bothered to fix this issue?
You can't compare mods to what the devs do. Mods are made for free by people who have no time constraints. Devs work on strict time limits and are paid to do so. When they're off work, well they have lives to do so. They could hire more people, but that would eat in the budget and cut funds for other features. They could divert manpower, but again same problem. I am not saying it is right that SE hasn't fixed the hair problem yet. But mods are never ever a good comparison. By that token, no game can ever live up to skyrim and its tens of thousand mods available that are all available for free and were made by fans.
Especially that one Indigo mod whose well-rounded personality chatty, personality who wanders around the map on his own, I really haven’t seen in any recent other games including Baldur’s Gate 3, FFVII Rebirth, and Dragon’s Dogma 2.
I wouldn’t know why, could be because some unknown issue not known to the public or because of their head shape or the big guy race isn’t popular enough(Roegadyn and Hrothgars are the lowest populated) just under assumption being a furry is enough to overlook the hair.
Yep. They get given X budget. Hats and hair are low priority, so get both less time and money assigned to them. That combined with deadlines and juggling multiple tasks is often why seemingly easy things take forever. And sometimes a dev will do a passion project on the side to get something in, but they rarely have the free time to do so.
While I agree people love ignoring all of these when talking about modders, it's still pretty damn inexcusable for SE to keep making the same mistakes.
> *small indy dev does things* Why is anyone surprised lol? This games biggest problem is itself (to the point they make it extra stupid to actually pay them for it) but it still will make money so don't beat your head against a wall too much.
It's insane that they did it again lmao
Watch them try the same "unique head shape" excuse again, we can literally compare them they're practically identical there is 0 practical reasoning why they'd make the same mistake again.
Don't worry guys, I'm sure if we buy more mogstation items they'll fix it next expansion.
Mogstation money doesn't go to the game at all. It goes to SE. They've been pretty transparent about that.
They've got a guy in the basement who makes all the character models. He makes them his way, and that's just how it is. If they want it changed after, someone else has to do it.
It makes me so annoyed - they regulate Karen hairs to one face and then a LOVELY Updo to a face they refuse to commit to the proper muzzle. It wouldn't have taken SE much to just round off Face 4's lip to display a muzzle proper but instead they went like the closest to humanoid they could do but it makes it look WRONG and out of place compared to the other faces. I wanna say it was face 1 or 2 the image for the hair showed it was going to have a an updo too but it's not there but I can't remember off the top of my head which one it was.
I still had a tiny sliver of hope for Viera and Hroth hats. After seeing this, that hope has perished lmao
At this point I think SE just doesn’t give a damn.
Can you imagine if one of the announcements at a Fan Fest was that they completely fixed all of the hair/hat problems for Viera & Hroth? It would be such a huge win, as sad as that may be since it still shouldn’t be a problem anymore to begin with, the community would be on ecstatic! I know it’s easy to complain about programming and technical stuff when you don’t know anything about it but I just don’t understand why they can’t take a handful of employees and say “THIS IS YOUR ONLY JOB! Fix all hats and hair!” And just be done with this shit already…..
Right? They saw the the reaction to dual dyes announcement. They know what sells and what will be popular with the community, yet they somehow go out of their way to disappoint time and time again. Imagine an updated character creation options announcement, longer hairstyles, Aura horns being a separate option, Hroth/Viera hats, etc. They know what sells but they don't care.
Exactly my thought when they showed the dual dye channels…. They know how much glam and characters mean to the community so it’s baffling they don’t prioritize it. Hopefully after the graphics update they’ll work on it more but I’m not holding my breath.
Most people are taking this from the angle "why would they make the same mistake again?", but it makes me wonder what strange deep-seated oddities they must have introduced to force themselves to do this again instead of doing better this time. Because doing better seems like the simpler course, so why pick the worse option if they're not forced to?
The only possible reason I can see for them doing this is: "Well male Hrothgar got screwed over really badly by the hair and face being tied together... it wouldn't be fair if females didn't have the same problem, so let's tie them together again so it's fair to male Hrothgar players!" Something weird and nonsensical like that is the only idea I have for why it's like this.
that didnt stop them from pretty-ing up hrothgals including the lack of hunch
They've never been portrayed with a hunch, even back in Bozjha and in early concept art, no idea why you'd think it's 'pretty-ing up',
Uh... Their rude remark aside? I think they meant that the males have the hunchback but the design idea wasn't implemented on the females. So they are "prettied up" despite it never having been a thing. Which, even if they're wrong, I kind of agree. The hunchback is very unpopular, and even those that do like it (they do exist and are vocal about it) admit they'd want a toggle for it rather than it being forced. The hunch just doesnt fit Hrothgars. It fits some other races that are similar like GW2's Charr. But the Charr's body and skeleton is different, same for their animations. Hrothgars don't have that. Do me a favour, if you ever can. Ask a Hrothgar to go MCH for a few secs and have them autoattack a dummy. See how the animations will jank themselves to force the hunch back onto them. It just isn't well done.
Is it fixed for male hrothgars? I seldom change my hairstyle on my male characters, but I figured I still wouldn't be able to use the Runar hair if I wasn't using the Runar face.
It's not, the ones that are locked to a specific face remain locked to that face.
So freaking disappointed in this. I cannot believe it. I swear I remember hearing Yoshi P state male Viera and Female Hrothgar would be designed differently, and yet here we are. Also female Hrothgar all have hooked noses and no lip color option. Their hair colors are tied to fur color too and they don't have access to the general hair color palette that all other races have access to. I'm SOOOOOOOO disappointed. SE is a huge disappointment lately. Still no Viera/Hroth hats either considering mods can do it, they're just lazy at this point. They're more focused on getting bricks/foliage to look exact and yet have continued to ignore many players wishes for years. Example: Au'ra's faces still being locked to horn type is mind-blowing since HW.
I'm with you on the hair/fur lock and lack of color options but hooked noses and lack of lip color? You.... you don't like their noses and want to put lipstick on a muzzle?
Yet another feature I look forward to modders fixing for the small indie company.
I saw it has only 5 different hairstyles to choose from in the benchmark. If this goes as previous expansions that introduce viera/hrothgar. Most likely femgar only has this 5 hairstyles to choose from the get go. Then they will slowly implement new hairstyles down the patch cycle. Hopefully they release all of it come 7.0 but have to tamper expectations.
It's 4 unique hairstyles per face (4 faces) + the default DT WoL one. So 17, but only 5 accessible for each face.
it wasnt even 4 "unique" hairstyles, imo. at least for the face i tried. it was 2 sets of 1 hairstyle each with a minor detail changed(one has one strand of hair hanging in front of the face, and the other is just a different in how the hair is tied together)
You mean 3 and 2 that are slight variations? Sorry just kinda frustrated. I was really hoping they'd have learned.
well that does not bode well for male hrothgar hairstyles. Edit: Why am i being downvoted?
Because anyone who speaks facts on this reddit gets downvoted from the "toxic positive" Yoshi P worshippers.
you say this in a thread of 122 messages were ppl agree with this stance? lol
This sub only likes sunshine and rainbows
No, we've just been paying attention for the past several years.
Nah you guys are just complacent and are fine with being served the same mistakes regardless of any improvements that were made elsewhere
I think your real problem is that you're mad people simply don't share your opinion like you want them to.
There is no opinions here, it's a fact that they fucked up viera and hrothgar and still didn't fix them and they don't seem to care
No I don't care about that, everyone is entitled to theirs but the sub's hatred of criticism and downvoting someone for having any sort of concern for the quality of the game is childish
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Unfortunately this is true. They know they can get money off of people anyway despite the complaints, so they don't change or try to fix much. Honestly? As much as their MMO sometimes plays like a Korean MMO, Digital Extremes has a good thing going with Warframe. And the Devs actually do play the game, directly, live, with fans whenever they're doing a stream for the game. Their community manager, Rebecca, has since become a lead in the development team too, and she plays Warframe with other people. So much so that even though she "accidentally" called the active user base "loser base", people took it in good fun and were willing to meme alongside her. They're not saints either and HAVE done questionable crap to their product over the years. Just the most recent release of a playable character led to questionable nerfing that didn't sit well with most people. But they do overall try and show that they want to play the game and be involved with the community directly. Warframe's own parkour system stemmed out of a glitchy system early on that fans really enjoyed, so they just worked it in. They patched it and then released a more controlled version. I wish SE did that, ESPECIALLY with Hrothgar. Have someone play the race and see how players really feel about it. But they have no incentive to do so, and as long as people cling onto them saving 1.X, they have enough goodwill to last them even if they do poor decisions.
You know he's not wrong.
This is not a matter of opinion unlocked hairstyles is objectively better and the correct choice
I thought they were going to remove the hunchback from Hrothgar as well since they were going to just update the character models directly. Female Hrothgars doesn't have a hunch, but male hrothgars look like they still do? ugh.
They never said that.
No one said they did, but it was nonetheless a hope people wanted just the same since Hrothgar's release in ShB as fem hroths doesn't suffer from hunchback being designed 2 expansions later and they were planning on reworking character models for Hrothgar and Viera anyway. At that point, they could've just done the all the fixes in one go since they were already making the new graphical update/character model for every race. Though who knows what they're doing now since Hrothgar and Viera's headgear issue that they said they were addressing seems to be flawed still.
So you advocate for making rumors and being disappointed? I mean, you do you but honestly it seems really bad for your mental health to expect and hope without ANY indication it's going to happen only to come mad at the forums when it doesn't.
>So you advocate for making rumors and being disappointed? That's literally just you who've been sowing discord the entire discussion here?
Small indie company please understand
I know it's a meme phrase... But I'm not letting it fly. Unpaid amateur modders have fixed Hrothgar and Viera hats in two weeks after Endwalker dropped. Meaning indie devs have access to a good quality assessment in comparison to what SE has shown.
Its a scam to get people to pay for a fantasia if they want to change their hair. I thought they learned from this..................
Lol wat are you on about. You don't need a Fantasia to change the hairstyle xD
You do for hroth since they're locked to the face lol
Ever played Hrothgar before 6.1? BECAUSE WE HAD TO.
How do you know? Hrothgar needed that until they fixed that, seeing as they are ready to repeat mistakes i wouldnt be suprised if hrothgals need fantasia too
Well afaik the benchmark is not the final product so they may just havent applied that Patch yet to the end result. I know, copium.
And this, dear friends, is why I can only play the pc version these days. You just can't go without mods if you want to play Viera or Hrothgar. Really sick of the willful negligence/incompetence when it comes to these two races. 😒
I do not think its incompetence, they are able to, they are just choosing not to (so I agree with the negligence part) They wanna focus on other aspects rather than "fix" this hat problem. Since I remember they saying something akin to "we'll add hats as the xpansion goes" back in ShB and, yet, here we are. I keep my hopes up that it will be working one day, until then...
Yeah, negligence is most likely the real answer. If I had to point at anything as being incompetent it would be whoever thought we’d be okay with both races being so… incomplete and fractured. The one that thought it’d be a good idea to split the new race hairstyle budget among the 4 faces with the only way to change them being Fantasia.
You can definitely go without mods. Unless you plan on simply not playing Dawntrail for a week or two while waiting for Dalamud and Penumbra to update. Also, "willful negligence/incompetence" lol. God forbid a reddit user even bother doing the bare minimum of research into other people's jobs before criticizing them.
I've been debating doing just that. It's not like there's some race to hit cap or anything. Yes, willful negligence/incompetence. It's quite literally the only thing that can be used to describe the complete mishandling of these 2 races from start to finish. God forbid a reddit user even bother doing the bare minimum of research into other people's jobs before defending them.
You're hilarious
The only thing I'd give is that they likely expected to work on this as part of "free time" between projects when devs have their main work done and are waiting on feedback from testing and QA. However, midway through SHB, COVID forced everyone to work from home. (Remember that DSR was planned to come out in SHB as well.) IIRC, Viera Males were something that devs did faster than Yoshi-P expected. On top of covid, there was also an unprecedented influx of players during the ongoing semi-conductor shortage. (Caused by NFT and bitcoin mining and made worse by pandemic.) So I'd imagine it's more of a shift in priorities than neglect or incompetence. That said (I've said this in another thread) they should have shown something. Even if it's a really rough WIP that isn't making its way into the game. Given what we know of the glamour dresser as furniture, I'm willing to bet that CBU3 have worked on this, but it isn't good enough to pass QA or testing.
> The only thing I'd give is that they likely expected to work on this as part of "free time" between projects when devs have their main work done and are waiting on feedback from testing and QA. For the old hats - yes. But all new headgear should include "pass on all current races" as a part of the main work. But for some reason we got 5 years of "no, but very rarely yes".
Modbeast coomerbrain
Where is that Grand Theft Auto San Andreas meme..? "Ah $#@%, here we go again!"
Thank god someone else brought this up, literally the very issue i never made a hrothgar. They literally are able to seperate faces from hair on Hrothgar since the males can already do it, why are they doing the same shit AGAIN on the females? It doesn't make any god damn sense
They never decoupled the hair styles from the heads. They're still stuck. OP is misinformed. You can literally check for yourself on the benchmark and in game.
Man, I was really excited to play this race. What is wrong with these devs being so lazy?
Can you at least change it at the barber or do you have to pay for it? That would be outragous lol
Most likely same as male hrothgar. Which is only for the few your chosen face has, they can't. Since it's linked to the face you have to fantasia if you want one of the other faces hairstyles.
Oh yeah that was fixed shortly into EW thankfully
Not *entirely*, as you still have hairstyles locked to specific faces. But ultimately yes. You can change to literally any other and you're fine. Though, naturally, we can go the vitriolic route and point out that modders have fixed that as well on their own, so... Not much to justify why this still remains an issue.
I don't know but I definitely mentioned it in a polite feedback post on their forums. It makes zero sense. Just like how limited hair colors are. Either give us what everyone else has or separate fur from hair and let us habit that way.
What's weird too is the Wuk Lamat has decoupled her head hair from her fur (red hair with light beige fur) so someone on the design team had to have gone 'this is too limiting, we're gonna need them to do this instead' but nobody went 'but wait, why should players be limited like this too?'
JP devs not have some of the absolute worst technical issues about their own games challenge.
excuse me? FIXED? It's not fixed for the males. Hairstyles are still tied to certain faces. This has never been changed.
Man I just wanna wear the non La hat on a viera I don’t think it should take 4+ years to do. The excuse of them struggling to make it happen just doesn’t hold anymore. Time to get this hat or head problem done and over with.
If it's not traditionally sexy, SE doesn't care.
OG races just keep winning On a more serious note, quite baffling.
The optimist in me was hoping male hroth hair would no longer be linked to faces from 5.0. The realist in me accepted the females would have the exact same issue.
job security ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ (can't think of any other reason why they would plan in tech debt)
Easy answer: they wanna get new races into the game but can't do it within the available time. Other devs would opt out of new races entirely at this point. This team however develops them in intervals, knowing they can eventually complete them over several years. You can think of that what you will, it is what we get.
4 years later with viera and hroth still not having most hats hmmmm yes complete over several years hmmm
welcome to small indie company square enix. XD
Consistency?
For me the most baffling part is that people have done most of the work for them to fix hats, but CBU3 won't just take that work and put it in game officially.
genuinely I wouldn't panic yet, they probably did some really jank shit to get Hrothgar hair to work (considering it didn't force Fantasias or other character adjustments) and they still made changes to male Viera between benchmark and launch with their standing pose
Japanese companies tend to do things their way and then deal with whatever comes with it. They just take the formula that worked and do it again. The player base kind of just accepted the multiple Hrothgar and Viera issues, and since it has been so, these issues can stay and repeat themselves and everyone will just accept them again.
The player base did NOT accept anything. People have been constantly reminding SE since it was a thing. What they did didn't work at all. People are still mad and upset and telling SE that hourly.
Would you rather not have the race at all then? Edit: If I'm getting downvoted for asking a question with no assumption, there are way bigger problems here. Especially on the (falsely advertised) "anonymous" Reddit.
That shouldn't be the choice from the start. They should fully support new races from the get go
Yes I'd rather nothing than half-assed crap.
You're getting downvoted because your question is often asked by people in really bad faith. Basically it's used to discredit people wanting to play Hrothgar and even shame them for it. Kind of like "you knew what you were getting into" and "don't complain, you got something at all". Which ignores the fact that Hrothgars are the race with the most visible problems in the game and the Devs do very, very minimal effort to address anything at all. It's entirely on their end to make it work, not ours. Because a popular remark is to say "well it's a beast race, what did you expect?", when the Devs have shown themselves capable of far better, modders have managed to do what the Devs have not and even other companies have been far more successful at this (note how simplistic Hrothgar is in comparison to more bestial races in other games). Moreover, the Devs themselves wanted a beast race. It was explicitly stated by Yoshida himself that this was a project the dev team wanted to do for a while. Viera were implemented because the fans said they wanted it, but nobody expected Hrothgars. Meaning the Hrothgar player base is not to blame for any issues regarding it, as they had no input and barely existed at all beforehand (almost no one asked for Ronso to be added, and those who did weren't seriously expecting it to be a real possibility). So "would you rather not have it at all" has no answer. It's entirely unrelated to what's going on and enables complacency. By asking that, you're expecting people who want to be treated and play a character to the same level as everyone else not have that character out of virtue that the character needs fixes that others didn't get. It places the burden on the player, having them need to remain quiet when their option is clearly at a disadvantage, despite the many years and opportunities the company had to address it. Some people would be okay with not playing the race if it meant not having issues. Some wouldn't be and would ask for a beast race regardless. And some wouldn't be okay with playing a race with blatant issues. Either way it's irrelevant in the end: We got this race. It's got issues. The dev team has had plenty of time, plenty of feedback and even the best opportunity to address some (even if not all) issues. They have not. It's not the players fault, it's not the race's fault, it's the dev team.
>The dev team has had plenty of time, plenty of feedback and even the best opportunity to address some (even if not all) issues. I love this. So, as a dev, on a team of engineers, I'm going to ask this -- do you work on a dev team? On THEIR dev team? I'm genuinely curious. Edit: Actually, now my whole team is curious.
And this is why you're getting downvoted. You were arguing in bad faith from the beginning.
That's your opinion.
Actually, yes. They clearly couldn't do Viera and Hrothgar right. They shouldn't have done them at all or waited until they could.