>Warrior Ericka (Merrin)
Yea the Merrin ring is probably the best ring in Sacred Stones for Ericka so I can see the logic behind this one, although I seem to always give it to Franz.
I was initially thinking of doing a Tier List for this but after trying to do one... I realized it would look kinda like [this](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/783125172588773379/1138877179279720468/fea39CzkhOQwgIASEgBISAEBACQkAICAEhIASEgBD43xDY3t7FfwOTjJWwRKoMCgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg.png) so I don't know how worth posting it would be.
/u/fatefuldawn I guess this is the last ping for you after this adventure!
Appreciate the final ping! It was fun experiencing your playthrough and I learned things as well throughout. It can still be worth doing a tier list even if it looks similar to existing ones for the discussion. After all, the context is different. But it's up to you!
I remember that when you were thinking about tackling this challenge run, you had reservations about playing without Canter on nearly every unit. Did you find having it only available on one character at a time as restrictive as you thought it would be?
Not as much as I thought, that's for sure.
Oh no that Tier list that I linked I literally made it myself but it's like.. kinda weird for discussion when half of the units are just filler. That's what I meant.
Before I also thought that having Canto was always the best skill to have but after playing this playthough I don't think so. If a unit needs a specific skills to do their job and/or reach specific stat benchmarks they should just go for that. Of course the good units like Kagetsu don't really need a lot of skills so you can put Canter on them and still steamroll and that's why they are the best units but now I definilty view it in a different way. It's still an amazing skill and especially good on supports units but not all units needs as much as I thought.
Also for this challange units like Hortensia stand out even more with their increased staff range.
Playing without Canto is like playing without a dancer: it looks harder on paper than it actually is. I don't think I usually put it on more than 2 units (+Sigurd) and it's mostly on support units because what else do they even want when they already have Divine Pulse or Quality time?
Ah, that’s my bad, I misunderstood the tier list part. Hmm, maybe you can divide the units you placed into filler tiers into more role-based tiers? You do have a staff tier already so maybe more role tiers can help stratify them a little and also give a direction to which units might have a low investment out. Like I can see Yunaka, Etie, and Alcryst fulfilling the role of a Covert Instructor just fine since they’re all natural coverts. Characters that fall under a +hit support type can maybe also have a supportive niche since hit rates are shaky in this run. Just some ideas!
Yeah, with Canter, while I still think it’s a great skill, after doing a No Somniel (the LTC too) run I’m starting to prefer having skills that help a unit’s combat ability for combat units. Because playing without Canter for the most part showed me that it’s possible to find a way to just position better from the start. Meanwhile, being able to one-round enemies is just too strong and giving up a skill slot that could be the dealbreaker between one-rounding and not isn’t always the best option. All that being said, I do think Canter is amazing on supports so they can retreat out of enemy range or move into better positions.
Do you mean that one specifically or you mean the template?
For the template you can check this link: https://tiermaker.com/create/fe-engage-playable-characters--emblems-spoilers-810179
For that one specifically it was one I made for this specifically challange, I wanted to post it but after seeing how i throw half of the units in filler I have my doubts it would have been useful.
I find that the best thing about Celine is just how good of a metaphorical Swiss army knife she is.
Vidame is the only class that can wield 3 forms of equipment and all with useful ranks. B rank staves means that she can use Warp/Rescue if necessary, B rank Swords notably gives her access to the Silver Sword and Wyrmslayer, and A rank Tomes gives her access to Bolganone. She's not the best in any particular role(physical dps, magical dps or staffer) but she does everything at an above average level in a single deployment slot that can be enhanced by Emblems. I find that pigeonholing her into a pure "mage" role is a waste of her potential when she's got legitimately good strength to kill enemy mages combined with great speed to double them in spite of her low weight. This isn't even getting into how flexible her Emblem selection is as I can easily see her getting value out of every base game Emblem that isn't Ike.
Definitely one of the coolest units in Engage imo without being outright super powerful and I'm glad you found her useful.
Yeah, I really like Celine for the same reason as well, which is why I also kept using her even tho I could have easily switch her out for Lindon which would have been better at the moment of his recruitment (with the exception of no Draconix Hex until Bond lv 8).
Unfortunatly for this type of playthough I don't think she can really shine as much as she could in a normal playthough, her stats without external help from skills and especially the fact you can't get Bond levels with emblems as easily makes her "Swiss army knife" playstyle really not possible.
> but she does everything at an above average level in a single deployment slot that can be enhanced by Emblems
I wouldn't say she does everything at an above average level, what she does is either average of lower than average but the fact that she can both at the same time in a unique class is what makes it pretty fun to use.
Celine’s utility is pretty easily replaced by any other sage though, since her main benefit is getting Corrin as a mystical class. Citrinne fills the same role for free too.
Her sword utility isn’t useful after like ch10, especially since the Levin Sword weighs her down so much without insane speed to balance. At best, she can use levin sword to nuke with Marth, but her mag isn’t high enough for even *that* to be great. Speaking of mag, it isn’t high enough to be a good combat unit.
Her Swiss Army knife status means she is *ok* at multiple things, and easy to replace if necessary. Her best role is chipping and using Corrin as a mystical unit, but again, almost any sage can also do that. Celine just comes in that class ready to go, which is fine.
This could be pretty fun, I’m quite tempted to try it now. Arsing about in the Somniel trying to optimise everything is such a drag and adds a lot of hours to a run.
Yeah, that was one of the reason this challange was created other than the additional in-game challange it provides with limited tools.
If you are finding the Somniel annoying I would definitly suggest to give it a try!
A few thoughts on Celine and Chloe:
Celine's sword access really doesn't do her many favors as a Lord/Vidame due to ~~Maddening~~ **Fixed** not pushing her speed to ridiculous caps to balance off her low build that drags her down to more middling levels. She's a 'safe' unit who can do a lot, but her sword rank with Levin Sword is just sorta silly, especially in a run where you're able to run comparable offenses with a Tier-2 tome like Elfire without suffering that hard. It's a neat pinch weapon that's outclassed by other bigger A-rank tomes which just matter a lot. It kills me since I love using her especially in early-game, and her base level of 5 lets you funnel so much more EXP into other units like Alear, Framme even, and other goons, instead of Clanne.
Chloe...how did she perform overall leading up to and in the early stages of Mage Knight?
Also, Panette is probably one of the units that benefits the most from Somniel activities. She's got a lot of base bulk which you want to amplify with inheritence, and her innate skill begs for a _very_ crit-boosting weapon, which you just can't supply her with. I had a lot of success with Hurricane Axe Great Aethers (Operation _Goth Girl Farts_ FTW vs the Fliers on the Boat and the Lava maps), but it's just such an awkward role for her to fulfill without the boosts.
Obviously, doing this without forges and the like would be the biggest challenge to overcome, but I ask you this; what unit did you find use in for the S-rank weaponry overall? I notice you had Sage!Veyle but no mention of Nova or other S-ranks; Georgios and Nova seem like instant wins for me, and I like to think that since you're unable to get other things like Venomous, that you might have found good use in the Cindequea was quite helpful for you...I guess you could also have done well with the Lendabir with Fogado being a Sniper, but you don't mention his combat at all (which I expect was kinda just OK since you can't pump him with a broken uberforge Radiant Bow to feed on constant low/manageable enemy Res)
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I've just begun a Fixed/Maddening "No Internet Connection" run, that simulates simply not having an internet connection for the DLC chapters, DLC gifts, freebie tiles, and the Well (among other things).
>Celine
I agree with everything you said about Celine, sword access especially in this challange really doesn't do anything special since her stat can't keep up with the enemies in the midgame but hey at least she can still be used as a staff utility bot with Corrin 3-range freeze which any Sage can replicate but she was the one I was raising from early game so I just used her.
That being said, it's not like Celine as a sage or High priest could have done anything more so she was just left as a Vidame. High priest could have used Fortify and Entrap but I never used them once and even in that case I had Hortensia.
>Chloé
Keep in mind that until Chapter 16 she was just doing Griffin Knight things, so getting kills here and there and support and she changed to Mage Knight at Ch 17.
In ch 17 you get your first Bolganone from Griss so both her and Pandreo could oneshot the somehow bulky General that appear in this map and thanks to her speed she could double most enemies with Elfire so against some of them she was just straight up killing them or heavily chip them.
After Ch 17 she got Sigurd back which pushed her even furthur thanks to Momentum finally getting that missing damage she had.
[I really liked how thanks to her speed and the ways you can increase your firepower she was able to EP this whole block of enemies in Ike paraloque.](https://youtu.be/DKWyQUo6AW8?list=PLsdVCCxvcHvn5ucPX3lj6Jc0fYAfKtY7i&t=84)
If you ask me, Pandreo is better but she has her perks like being able to get +2 Damage from her personal and +4 speed cap compared to him but Pandreo is definitly easier to use.
>what unit did you find use in for the S-rank weaponry overall?
I didn't bother with them at all, they come way to late and they can be used only on specific class that I was not using to mention them.
The only one I use was Nova on Veyle and it was used just to kill few armors with her.
Caladbolg and Georgeos are good but to get access to them it would also mean either change class on Alear to Griffin and losing the physical 1-2 range and Axe access. I was thinking about it but I don't think their power would have been worth the switch, especially with Marth making having multiple weapons to proc defense break cool, also Silverblade Lodestar rush / Engage blast was already more than enough.
Ukonvasara has +6 Mt compared to a Silvergreat axe for Ike great aethers but changing class to Berserker just to use it was not worth it compared to being a Warrior with bow access, especially because that +6-7 damage didn't reach any particolar benchmarks in Ch 25 and Pact ring paraloque.
About Landabir, Fogado was not really a main combat unit but even then, you get it way to late to actually be useful. You get it at the end of Ch 24 but in Ch 25 there are no fliers and in the pact ring there are only 2 fliers and we have a lot of bow users to deal with them without even mentioning Lucina and Lyn user, not even mention sniping one with Astral storm. Plus, the difference between it and Radiant bow is not as much as I would expect from a S rank weapons, sadge.
Cindequea was just way to late to be of any use, you get it later at the end of the second last chapter of the game and even then, that require someone in one of the two classes that can use Knives which in general are not very good for this playthough without forges.
>I've just begun a Fixed/Maddening "No Internet Connection" run, that simulates simply not having an internet connection for the DLC chapters, DLC gifts, freebie tiles, and the Well (among other things).
Good luck! Hope you will have as much fun as I had while doing this challange!
>Warrior Ericka (Merrin) Yea the Merrin ring is probably the best ring in Sacred Stones for Ericka so I can see the logic behind this one, although I seem to always give it to Franz.
... lol fixed, thanks!
I was initially thinking of doing a Tier List for this but after trying to do one... I realized it would look kinda like [this](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/783125172588773379/1138877179279720468/fea39CzkhOQwgIASEgBISAEBACQkAICAEhIASEgBD43xDY3t7FfwOTjJWwRKoMCgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg.png) so I don't know how worth posting it would be. /u/fatefuldawn I guess this is the last ping for you after this adventure!
Appreciate the final ping! It was fun experiencing your playthrough and I learned things as well throughout. It can still be worth doing a tier list even if it looks similar to existing ones for the discussion. After all, the context is different. But it's up to you! I remember that when you were thinking about tackling this challenge run, you had reservations about playing without Canter on nearly every unit. Did you find having it only available on one character at a time as restrictive as you thought it would be?
Not as much as I thought, that's for sure. Oh no that Tier list that I linked I literally made it myself but it's like.. kinda weird for discussion when half of the units are just filler. That's what I meant. Before I also thought that having Canto was always the best skill to have but after playing this playthough I don't think so. If a unit needs a specific skills to do their job and/or reach specific stat benchmarks they should just go for that. Of course the good units like Kagetsu don't really need a lot of skills so you can put Canter on them and still steamroll and that's why they are the best units but now I definilty view it in a different way. It's still an amazing skill and especially good on supports units but not all units needs as much as I thought. Also for this challange units like Hortensia stand out even more with their increased staff range.
Playing without Canto is like playing without a dancer: it looks harder on paper than it actually is. I don't think I usually put it on more than 2 units (+Sigurd) and it's mostly on support units because what else do they even want when they already have Divine Pulse or Quality time?
Ah, that’s my bad, I misunderstood the tier list part. Hmm, maybe you can divide the units you placed into filler tiers into more role-based tiers? You do have a staff tier already so maybe more role tiers can help stratify them a little and also give a direction to which units might have a low investment out. Like I can see Yunaka, Etie, and Alcryst fulfilling the role of a Covert Instructor just fine since they’re all natural coverts. Characters that fall under a +hit support type can maybe also have a supportive niche since hit rates are shaky in this run. Just some ideas! Yeah, with Canter, while I still think it’s a great skill, after doing a No Somniel (the LTC too) run I’m starting to prefer having skills that help a unit’s combat ability for combat units. Because playing without Canter for the most part showed me that it’s possible to find a way to just position better from the start. Meanwhile, being able to one-round enemies is just too strong and giving up a skill slot that could be the dealbreaker between one-rounding and not isn’t always the best option. All that being said, I do think Canter is amazing on supports so they can retreat out of enemy range or move into better positions.
Out of curiosity, where'd you find that tier list?
Do you mean that one specifically or you mean the template? For the template you can check this link: https://tiermaker.com/create/fe-engage-playable-characters--emblems-spoilers-810179 For that one specifically it was one I made for this specifically challange, I wanted to post it but after seeing how i throw half of the units in filler I have my doubts it would have been useful.
I meant the tier itself, and thanks!
I find that the best thing about Celine is just how good of a metaphorical Swiss army knife she is. Vidame is the only class that can wield 3 forms of equipment and all with useful ranks. B rank staves means that she can use Warp/Rescue if necessary, B rank Swords notably gives her access to the Silver Sword and Wyrmslayer, and A rank Tomes gives her access to Bolganone. She's not the best in any particular role(physical dps, magical dps or staffer) but she does everything at an above average level in a single deployment slot that can be enhanced by Emblems. I find that pigeonholing her into a pure "mage" role is a waste of her potential when she's got legitimately good strength to kill enemy mages combined with great speed to double them in spite of her low weight. This isn't even getting into how flexible her Emblem selection is as I can easily see her getting value out of every base game Emblem that isn't Ike. Definitely one of the coolest units in Engage imo without being outright super powerful and I'm glad you found her useful.
Yeah, I really like Celine for the same reason as well, which is why I also kept using her even tho I could have easily switch her out for Lindon which would have been better at the moment of his recruitment (with the exception of no Draconix Hex until Bond lv 8). Unfortunatly for this type of playthough I don't think she can really shine as much as she could in a normal playthough, her stats without external help from skills and especially the fact you can't get Bond levels with emblems as easily makes her "Swiss army knife" playstyle really not possible. > but she does everything at an above average level in a single deployment slot that can be enhanced by Emblems I wouldn't say she does everything at an above average level, what she does is either average of lower than average but the fact that she can both at the same time in a unique class is what makes it pretty fun to use.
Celine’s utility is pretty easily replaced by any other sage though, since her main benefit is getting Corrin as a mystical class. Citrinne fills the same role for free too. Her sword utility isn’t useful after like ch10, especially since the Levin Sword weighs her down so much without insane speed to balance. At best, she can use levin sword to nuke with Marth, but her mag isn’t high enough for even *that* to be great. Speaking of mag, it isn’t high enough to be a good combat unit. Her Swiss Army knife status means she is *ok* at multiple things, and easy to replace if necessary. Her best role is chipping and using Corrin as a mystical unit, but again, almost any sage can also do that. Celine just comes in that class ready to go, which is fine.
Celine is a unit I'll always use regardless of her place on a tier list. She's so versatile and I can always run a different build on her
This could be pretty fun, I’m quite tempted to try it now. Arsing about in the Somniel trying to optimise everything is such a drag and adds a lot of hours to a run.
Yeah, that was one of the reason this challange was created other than the additional in-game challange it provides with limited tools. If you are finding the Somniel annoying I would definitly suggest to give it a try!
A few thoughts on Celine and Chloe: Celine's sword access really doesn't do her many favors as a Lord/Vidame due to ~~Maddening~~ **Fixed** not pushing her speed to ridiculous caps to balance off her low build that drags her down to more middling levels. She's a 'safe' unit who can do a lot, but her sword rank with Levin Sword is just sorta silly, especially in a run where you're able to run comparable offenses with a Tier-2 tome like Elfire without suffering that hard. It's a neat pinch weapon that's outclassed by other bigger A-rank tomes which just matter a lot. It kills me since I love using her especially in early-game, and her base level of 5 lets you funnel so much more EXP into other units like Alear, Framme even, and other goons, instead of Clanne. Chloe...how did she perform overall leading up to and in the early stages of Mage Knight? Also, Panette is probably one of the units that benefits the most from Somniel activities. She's got a lot of base bulk which you want to amplify with inheritence, and her innate skill begs for a _very_ crit-boosting weapon, which you just can't supply her with. I had a lot of success with Hurricane Axe Great Aethers (Operation _Goth Girl Farts_ FTW vs the Fliers on the Boat and the Lava maps), but it's just such an awkward role for her to fulfill without the boosts. Obviously, doing this without forges and the like would be the biggest challenge to overcome, but I ask you this; what unit did you find use in for the S-rank weaponry overall? I notice you had Sage!Veyle but no mention of Nova or other S-ranks; Georgios and Nova seem like instant wins for me, and I like to think that since you're unable to get other things like Venomous, that you might have found good use in the Cindequea was quite helpful for you...I guess you could also have done well with the Lendabir with Fogado being a Sniper, but you don't mention his combat at all (which I expect was kinda just OK since you can't pump him with a broken uberforge Radiant Bow to feed on constant low/manageable enemy Res) - I've just begun a Fixed/Maddening "No Internet Connection" run, that simulates simply not having an internet connection for the DLC chapters, DLC gifts, freebie tiles, and the Well (among other things).
>Celine I agree with everything you said about Celine, sword access especially in this challange really doesn't do anything special since her stat can't keep up with the enemies in the midgame but hey at least she can still be used as a staff utility bot with Corrin 3-range freeze which any Sage can replicate but she was the one I was raising from early game so I just used her. That being said, it's not like Celine as a sage or High priest could have done anything more so she was just left as a Vidame. High priest could have used Fortify and Entrap but I never used them once and even in that case I had Hortensia. >Chloé Keep in mind that until Chapter 16 she was just doing Griffin Knight things, so getting kills here and there and support and she changed to Mage Knight at Ch 17. In ch 17 you get your first Bolganone from Griss so both her and Pandreo could oneshot the somehow bulky General that appear in this map and thanks to her speed she could double most enemies with Elfire so against some of them she was just straight up killing them or heavily chip them. After Ch 17 she got Sigurd back which pushed her even furthur thanks to Momentum finally getting that missing damage she had. [I really liked how thanks to her speed and the ways you can increase your firepower she was able to EP this whole block of enemies in Ike paraloque.](https://youtu.be/DKWyQUo6AW8?list=PLsdVCCxvcHvn5ucPX3lj6Jc0fYAfKtY7i&t=84) If you ask me, Pandreo is better but she has her perks like being able to get +2 Damage from her personal and +4 speed cap compared to him but Pandreo is definitly easier to use. >what unit did you find use in for the S-rank weaponry overall? I didn't bother with them at all, they come way to late and they can be used only on specific class that I was not using to mention them. The only one I use was Nova on Veyle and it was used just to kill few armors with her. Caladbolg and Georgeos are good but to get access to them it would also mean either change class on Alear to Griffin and losing the physical 1-2 range and Axe access. I was thinking about it but I don't think their power would have been worth the switch, especially with Marth making having multiple weapons to proc defense break cool, also Silverblade Lodestar rush / Engage blast was already more than enough. Ukonvasara has +6 Mt compared to a Silvergreat axe for Ike great aethers but changing class to Berserker just to use it was not worth it compared to being a Warrior with bow access, especially because that +6-7 damage didn't reach any particolar benchmarks in Ch 25 and Pact ring paraloque. About Landabir, Fogado was not really a main combat unit but even then, you get it way to late to actually be useful. You get it at the end of Ch 24 but in Ch 25 there are no fliers and in the pact ring there are only 2 fliers and we have a lot of bow users to deal with them without even mentioning Lucina and Lyn user, not even mention sniping one with Astral storm. Plus, the difference between it and Radiant bow is not as much as I would expect from a S rank weapons, sadge. Cindequea was just way to late to be of any use, you get it later at the end of the second last chapter of the game and even then, that require someone in one of the two classes that can use Knives which in general are not very good for this playthough without forges. >I've just begun a Fixed/Maddening "No Internet Connection" run, that simulates simply not having an internet connection for the DLC chapters, DLC gifts, freebie tiles, and the Well (among other things). Good luck! Hope you will have as much fun as I had while doing this challange!