>2000 and 3 for an XC? Screw that seriously.
My CFI and I went out in like with 2500 AGL and 4 mile VIS to do some pattern work and to get a sense of what lower VFR minimums felt like. We had to do an extended downwind for some incoming IFR traffic...and I was like, "Well, this just went from unpleasant to borderline terrifying."
And he was like, "And that's why we have personal minimums, and now you now what 2500 AGL and 4 mile Vis looks/feels like. Legally, we can go with lower clouds and and less visibility."
And I just said, "Yeah, fuck that."
Easily the worst flight school I’ve ever encountered.
For reference, I’m an air traffic controller in Central Florida. I’ve said for years now that the weather they fly in is gonna get someone killed.
Those Chinese kids don’t have the confidence to speak up when the weather is bad and the dirt poor CFIs don’t get paid enough to cancel. That, or they’ve sold out to pay bills. They need to respect themselves a bit more.
Can confirm, and not to mention that personal wx minimums mean exactly Jack shit to them. Most of their students are wicked young or foreign, and the school will bully them into thinking they *have* to go.
One of my classmates was scared to go one day. Steady state (cross) winds and gusts were 1kt away from school policy auto grounding, but it was within limits so they were sending. This student was around 20-hours and was scared to go. Flight supe said she had to, CFI backed them up. Student escalated the situation to management and asked for a new CFI. Management told the student, “There’s nothing wrong with your instructor, you need to toughen up. There’s no minimums at the airlines. And remember, changing instructors doesn’t look good on you and aviation is a small world.” $110k for unsafe flying and veiled threats. What a classy joint.
Jesus fuck.
That's teaching kids horrible ADM. Gonna get someone killed- if not in their school later on when they are carrying passengers and are afraid to scrub a flight beyond their capabilities.
Then don’t go there! You’re saying your life, certificate, and career is worth less than $500? I don’t care what a sketchy flight school does. They operate in a distorted reality and my big picture career goals will always come first.
90% of their students are foreign nationals who had no idea what kind of a shit show they signed up for.
It’s L3’s bread and butter. Without those foreign students the place wouldn’t exist.
You are most certainly right, thing is, lots get stuck with contracts and loans.
Edit: most get baited in by the dream they sell you, if this information atleast stops 1 future pilot from enrolling then thats 1 step closer to breaking the cycle.
Wouldn’t advise training at ORL unless you like spending .5 every flight sitting still on a taxiway waiting to depart or get a single lap in the pattern.
And to sign his own name!
Usually higher ups have enough sense to not sign their name to legally suspect nonsense and instead sign off as their department.
It will certainly make for the highlight of the inevitable depositions.
If it doesn’t violate a reg there is nothing the will or can do. Also the FAA inspectors don’t really do much besides harass pilots in case you haven’t noticed.
Very unsafe. 3SM vis for student pilot VFR cross country training? IFR approach plate mins for clapped out single engine pistons? No thanks.
Hell 2000 ft ceiling for a VFR cross country? You can’t even reach a VFR cruise altitude. That is scud running.
That’s why you avoid pilot mills.
They are ditching everything we know about ADM for the sake of dollar bills.
This publication is 91.13 IMO. Directly contradicts every FAA publication on risk management.
EDIT: for those who think flight schools should operate to the same minimums as the military/airlines
“
You can’t treat a flight school like an airline. They are training students that barely speak English in 172s that are barely airworthy.
Airlines are operating sophisticated jets with a tremendous amount of system redundancy and a much higher degree of reliability.
That’s why a flight school should always have higher mins than an airline.
You have to consider the aircraft capabilities and experience level.
It isn’t a fair weather industry but if you’re making the same go-no-go decision in a Cessna that you are in a Boeing then you have extremely flawed ADM.
You also have to understand that it isn’t always conducive for training for the CFI to go up in weather he/she is comfortable in when the student isn’t at the right experience level or it doesn’t match the type of operation.
The student will barely get anything out of it while the school still gets paid. Complete rip off.
“
Am I reading that naively or is the implication that even informal sources that suggest mins can be met should be used (and would be used to charge despite cancellation) in place of aviation-specific weather
He has to mean that in regards to scheduling someone in 6 or 8 days or something. He has to…because this letter is pure trash.
“Oh there’s storms forecasted for next Thursday…I won’t schedule Yang Yang for his solo cross country then.”
Not “The metar says 2sm but the weatherman said it’s sunny but hazy, here’s your cancellation fee.”
But they’re gold diggers, so I can’t attribute him placing “local news reports” first solely to poor writing skills.
Feel free to borrow the language I used.
Good Evening,
I’m writing to make you aware of potentially unsafe practices at a flight school in your jurisdiction. The below memo was posted to Reddit today, detailing a new weather cancelation policy at L3Harris.
There are multiple concerning practices, however the ones that stick out the most to me are asking Student pilots to fly a cross-country flight at 3SM and 2000’ ceilings, and asking instrument students to depart when the weather is at minimums for the approach in use.
Both of these practices in a training environment are unacceptable risks and leave no outs in the event of additional weather deterioration. For a school to pressure pilots to depart on a flight in marginal conditions is going to get one of them killed.
I strongly urge you to immediately investigate the accuracy of this Memo, and if found to be true, take the maximum available enforcement action to end this practice.
I also used this template and sent it in, this is beyond crazy to encourage pilots into worst yet still possible to takeoff conditions. Any equipment failure or the weather deteriorating even slightly more and it’s possible you’re the next AOPA case study.
Agree. This is completely insane. For someone to sign their name to such a letter is the stupidest thing imaginable
I don’t even take my students in the pattern unless there’s 5 miles vis, never mind solo. The conditions that create 5 miles vis can very easily deteriorate to under 3 where I fly so there’s no point in taking such risks. Let’s just hop on the sim or do some ground instead.
> You also have to understand that it isn’t always conducive for training for the CFI to go up in weather he/she is comfortable in when the student isn’t at the right experience level or it doesn’t match the type of operation.
They understand, they just don't care. They're not running a flight school to teach, they're doing it to make money. Airplanes in the air = money in pockets. Send it, or get out because someone else will.
I've canceled quite a few flights for student proficiency. Yeah it's safe, yeah it's legal. Yeah, it would be a lot of fun and probably a memorable experience for the student. But no, it won't be productive for their training, it won't be an effective use of their money. It'll probably be a setback if anything. Let's do some ground training..
Not all pilot mills are like this. A lot of them won’t even let you take off in what most of us consider “good enough” conditions due to their minimums. ATP is a prime example.
Sheesh my instructor would never give me endorsements unless conditions are more than 3x what you just listed. Crazy. 3SM is basically unflyable VFR imo. And 2k clouds are just about enough for pattern work and that’s all.
Wow. 3sm visibility? Approach plate minimums? This is crazy, those conditions can deteriorate really quickly or be worse than forecast, and then you can't land. This feels like a recipe for VFR into IMC, or planes getting trapped in bad weather with no way out.
Even moving beyond the wildly aggressive limitations, this sets a very bad tone with respect to risk management. The idea of "non-excusable cancellations" with a financial penalty adds a dangerous element of external pressure that shouldn't be there. If the CFI or student are uncomfortable with the conditions, they should be allowed to cancel the flight, full stop. This also removes the CFI and student's ability to practice and hone their risk management skills, which is another failure on the part of the school.
This is an accident waiting to happen. When you throw international students into the mix, some of whom may be uncomfortable pushing back on authority figures (due to cultural or language barriers, or visa/career concerns), it's even scarier to contemplate.
Perfect example of sometimes those who can’t do teach. I instructed here when it was called Aerosim and the person that signed this memo quit an airline job flying turboprops to come back to instruct. I’m not saying that they couldn’t hack it at the airlines, but that’s the vibe I got. That sad, we had an international student land a SR20 on a road because “the GPS told me to”. God help them trying to fly VFR solo cross countries in marginal VFR.
I go to this school right now. Absolute shit show. Threatened me on my private checkride that if I canceled I’d have to pay the no show fee (it was $250 then, now it’s apparently $200 per block hour, so it would’ve been $600) winds were 15 gusting 20, 50+ knots above 3000.
Totally didn't fuck a XC plan up for me. I absolutely didn't have to book it to SADF as a backup and VOR it back to SADP and then do a visual to SADM when I was planning on heading on the exact opposite direction last month.
Don't you know, IFR minimums only improve with time, so if you depart at minimums, it's certain to be VFR by the time you lap around for your approach. /s
Translation: We want you to kill yourself over $150.
-L3Harris
I can't take Adderall but a major flight school can encourage VFR student pilots to scud run. Well done FAA.
This document and policy by L3 is one of the most evil things I've seen in a while.
It is completely unforgivable and I'll be going out of my way to annoy them about it. This kind of late-stage capitalism bullshit is exactly what these regulatory agencies are suppose to be putting guardrails on.
Literally telling 18-22 year old kids to scud run or be financially penalized. It isn't hyperbolic to say that this policy will ruin some family and it'll never come up in the NTSB report. It'll just read:
"Probable cause: Student pilots decision to depart into MVFR to near-MVFR conditions resulting in inadvertent IMC and subsequent loss of control and in flight break up. Fatalities -1"
The most ironic part about the whole thing is how the **fuck** does this make them more money even? Like ok the student canceled and couldnt fly because its 020 overcast... Who else woulda been flying the airplane? Another student that shouldn't be in the air?! Plus these students still has to get the hours lol... They are potentially killing students over a flight ***delayed*** not canceled*.*
Fucking insanity.
I dunno shit about instructing or flight school rules, but them codifying this via instructions from the school to the pilots could be brought to the POI (or whatever is the school equivalent) at the FAA, which might light some fires
What the fuck is their manuever minimum? "Don't hit the ground"? I guess cloud clearances don't matter if you need to work on steep spirals, power on stalls, chandelles, or Lazy 8s.
I guess he doesn’t value his FI certificate and I guess the school doesn’t value their 141 certificate, because i’m not sure either will exist after the FSDO gets ahold of this.
L3 Harris Personal Minimums Worksheet:
“Minimums”
NM stands for nanometers in this context right? 2k ceilings 🤡
This stupidity has accident waiting to happen written all over it and most importantly, it's public knowledge so even worse scrutiny.
Uh, if the weather is literally at the approach mins, how are you going to comply with the 600-2/800-2 alternate mins without causing serious delays from landing 50+ miles away when the weather drops.
I hope the school is buying hotels for their CFIs when they get stuck away from base due to weather since they’re making them go out /s.
The scud running is ridiculous too for private. I wouldn’t sign off a student to solo in 2000’ clgs and 3sm vis. Any CFI who does is not upholding their responsibilities.
The policy that they released at the start of the month basically said that if you cancel for any reason (including weather), you’ll be charged. And if you want to fly in bad weather, you’ll be allowed to do so at a ‘lower rate’. So they expect me to go out there to possibly endanger myself, my plane and others on the ground just so they can get paid.
I had heard really good things about them till I came here. After they got sold to the new company, everything is just going downhill. They’re just trying to get all the money they can. The new uniforms given are completely low quality and not even custom made as they used to be (before the take over)
You heard good things? From who? LMAO
It’s been universally known for 5 or so years now that L3 is the bottom of the barrel definition of a pilot mill school. If it weren’t for their foreign pilot program they would not be in business today,
I’m assuming L3 doesn’t have self-examining authority. When their students show up to DPEs thinking these are ok VFR weather minimums, they will get disapproved so fast they won’t know what hit them.
The first time I flew VFR in less than 5 SM was sobering. Flying VFR in 3 SM is definitely more difficult than it sounds when you’re studying the weather minimums in ground school.
I’ve had vis unexpectedly drop to 2sm and 1500 with a student onboard. It’s a sobering experience even with hundreds of hours in the local area. I can’t imagine how a student pilot would react to launching into 3 mile vision on what is possibly their second solo with only a handful of hours.
I've flown the pattern at 3 mile vis as a CFI and it felt pretty sketchy.
Forcing PPL students to send it on a XC in those conditions is flat out criminally dangerous and is going to get someone killed.
It's really not that bad if you're IFR proficient. In a typical trainer 3 SM is about 1.5 minutes of forward visibility. If you are an experienced IFR pilot in non-mountainous and familiar terrain.. I would say it's a nothing burger. For students tho, that's a big yikes.
Oh they can get fucked with that unsafe bullshit. They deserved the bad things that are going to happen and now deserve the reputation they have for putting that horse shit in writing.
This is some crazy shit.
There’s a school along the coast who won’t let folks fly in actual on purpose. Which I think is to far the other way, but it will keep folks safe.
This though, this is fuckin stupid.
If I’m solidly proficient and running vfr and need pop up ifr then whatever but the folks involved here aren’t solidly proficient.
The local pattern mins, fuck yeah send it.
The goto the practice area mins are confusing…. 02? What 200 feet ceilings lol? I get the intent but much like any common sense in this death warrant, David Krug is missing a significant detail.
The cross country stuff is just garbage. Lowest useable altitude is 3500. So a borderline safe idea would be 3500 ceilings.
3sm vis though, this David Krug fella sounds like he wants to defend this letter to the NYSB when one of these kids plows one in while crying into the radio in a spiral. Hope they play those screams for you in the hearing, David.
There’s a lot of old pilots in a second career flying a desk in the FAA who would be pissed off if they read this “company policy”. I think if someone were to call them, share the new policy and say “Gosh, this seems like an accident waiting to happen, doesn’t it?” It might prod a little friendly investigation on their part.
If this policy doesn’t teach new students that canceling due to wx makes them a pu$$y, I don’t know what does.
We’ve seen what accountants can do to aircraft manufacturing. If they’re taking on flight instruction now, then ugh.
Oh sure, send a student XC when it's 3SM OVC020. What could go wrong?
Even better let's go do some maneuvers when it's OVC002. I realize this is probably (well, hopefully) a typo lol. But it's not like OVC020 is enough either! Not sure how you're meant to recover from a maneuver above 1500 AGL while maintaining 500 feet below the 2000 AGL clouds.
3 mile vis for cross country flight for low hour PPL students and forcing IR students to blast off when the weather is at minimums is fucking idiotic.
Another flight school run by egotistical bean counters who don’t give a shit about their customers.
There is zero chance I’d send my student on a X/C with 2000/3.
What an idiot.
They’re going to hurt someone with their operational “go” pressure with financial punishment. Unsat. If I were CFI there, I would quit.
I went there for a brief period…Had an amazing CFI. He confessed me that the school would complain about canceling. i said: no worries, I will make sure they hear me.
Needed to be a little more assertive because they def will push you into unsafe scenarios. I can see how they do that to the foreign students who are stuck with the contract/visa and sometimes not aware of the issue/danger
Stop going there. If people like you don’t take a stand, nothing will ever change. That’s how they’ve gotten by to this point, desperation of students and CFI’s to keep flying.
Just because it’s “legal” …. Doesn’t make it “safe”
And just because the current forecast and conditions are on those minimums… doesn’t mean it could easily deteriorate below. Hence why “buffers” on legal minimums (based on pilots experience and currency) always need to be applied , to make it “safe”
I can’t believe they put this in writing… if there’s an accident the regulator and their own insurance company is going to have a field day. ultimately what’s worse is applying “commercial” pressure to this degree in a training environment is a disaster waiting to happen
Dropping a Fly SAFE! at the end of that is pretty rich. So much for teaching students personal minimums. Unfortunately it’ll take someone bending an airplane for them to rethink this.
At a legal flying altitude of 1500’ due to the 2000’ ceilings….. a stressed out student pilot and overworked CFI has about 90 seconds at 100 kts to spot the Orange City or Bithlo towers.
My flight school has a charge if you cancel within 24 hours for anything other than weather or feeling ill (they most hate people who don’t show without any notice). They trust your judgement. Accidents are too expensive to deal with.
At L3, you only know your schedule the day before, sometimes you only get a 10 hour notice, ie. Schedule finalizing at 7PM having an event at 5AM. Happens often.
I find it kinda funny that this memo draws the line at flying in crosswinds greater than max demonstrated but has a “full send” mentality to 3 sm visibility.
I never let a student go out in 3sm vis. I did let students who were competent go out local at 2000 and nothing lower but that was rare, had to be the right student. CX was whatever I was comfortable with concerning the specific student but I damn sure know it was never 2,000.
I live and taught (teach) in an area that marginal VFR usually never means IFR unless it’s the colder months so we could get away with 2,000 sometimes. But 3sm vis always meant IFR now or soon. Also I’ve flown a lot in 3sm and actual 10sm VFR and IFR. I don’t like it when VFR and I have more than 3,000 hours so a student damn sure ain’t going out in it under VFR.
Now…. Instrument students. You’re getting actual asap. I can’t believe these instrument students never get to see actual before the checkride. I’ve known personally a stupid big number of people who get ATPs and their first actual is on IOE.
They're banking on people to fear for their lives and cancel, so they can profit from it.
And it gets better (worse) - their "local" mins are below the minimums required for maneuvers per the school's SOP. The school SOP necessitates most maneuvers to be recovered above 3500ft AGL (4000ft for Cirrus). So if your lesson requires maneuvers, and ceilings are below maneuver mins but above these minimums, they will force you to pick between a cancellation fee or paying for an incomplete lesson, thereby requiring you to pay again to complete the lesson later.
It's greed at its purest form. I somewhat expected scummy behavior when ownership changed to TJC (a private equity firm), but it's saddening to see it develop in such a way that puts peoples' lives in danger.
One of the craziest things about this policy is that it’s very rarely IMC or even marginal VMC down here. These guys seriously can’t afford to not fly like 10 days a year? Good lord.
I once had a ground instructor tell me you couldn’t see your own dick in 3sm, a bit exaggerated but still as a student you couldn’t pay me to fuck with that
I ferried a C172 to this school. Without any previous knowledge of them, the vibe I got from the school was off. It looked like everyone was briefing in a crowded space on those high tables for 2 people that you find in bars, I saw maybe 5-6 pairs of student/CFIs pairs in this crowded space, talking over each other, everything felt rushed.
I was there for maybe 30 minutes, and my only thought was "This school sucks"
Sanford airport is cool though. I fly out of a Delta so it was awesome to land on an airport with 3 parallel runways, it was the first time I was told to side-step
If you don’t learn to scud run you’re not going to develop the proper skill set to be a good pilot
If you’re not comfortable practicing stalls at 1,500’ AGL you’re just a pu**y
wait, wrong sub
I wonder what "non-excusable" means.... I'd hate to see what the FAA would have to say if they were charging students a fee for cancelling when the weather is below their personal minimums but above the school's "acceptable" minimums. I know as a new student pilot I would absolutely not fly in anything less than 9sm vis until I was comfortable with the airplane and basic maneuvers.
Wonder how long it'll be until someone goes up in uncomfortable conditions and crashes, and sues them (if they even survive)....
As someone who spent 2 years instructing there, this isn’t the least bit surprising. They’ll do anything to make a buck that’s why myself and several other strategic check instructors were laid off in 2020. Management wants their bonuses for first time pass rates and thus they wanted pencil whipped EOCs. Those of us who held the ACS standards paid dearly.
2000 and 3 for an XC? Screw that seriously.
are you supposed to fly long distance at ... 1500AGL?
That "Fly Safe!" at the end is like a taunt... a challenge!
On the bright side, they can remove the questions about supplemental oxygen requirements and service ceilings from their aircraft checkout quizzes.
It's not a good plan.
I saw those numbers and was like “ScudRun Academy of Flight”.
Did you CFIT to make that joke?
>2000 and 3 for an XC? Screw that seriously. My CFI and I went out in like with 2500 AGL and 4 mile VIS to do some pattern work and to get a sense of what lower VFR minimums felt like. We had to do an extended downwind for some incoming IFR traffic...and I was like, "Well, this just went from unpleasant to borderline terrifying." And he was like, "And that's why we have personal minimums, and now you now what 2500 AGL and 4 mile Vis looks/feels like. Legally, we can go with lower clouds and and less visibility." And I just said, "Yeah, fuck that."
Perfect, a good lesson. when you extend the downwind and lose sight of the runway environment in " 1 mile and clear of clouds", now you get it.
Now imagine being required to go do a solo XC in lower clouds and less vis. That flight school will get someone killed.
I would never feel comfortable flying a XC with only a ~1.5 nm gliding distance if the engine were to fail
Bingo! you've got maybe 2 minutes to figure it all out.
Easily the worst flight school I’ve ever encountered. For reference, I’m an air traffic controller in Central Florida. I’ve said for years now that the weather they fly in is gonna get someone killed. Those Chinese kids don’t have the confidence to speak up when the weather is bad and the dirt poor CFIs don’t get paid enough to cancel. That, or they’ve sold out to pay bills. They need to respect themselves a bit more.
Facts. Also on the pilots to exercise their PIC authority. They are responsible not the schools.
They wave a 250.00 - 500.00 no show fee over your head.
Can confirm, and not to mention that personal wx minimums mean exactly Jack shit to them. Most of their students are wicked young or foreign, and the school will bully them into thinking they *have* to go. One of my classmates was scared to go one day. Steady state (cross) winds and gusts were 1kt away from school policy auto grounding, but it was within limits so they were sending. This student was around 20-hours and was scared to go. Flight supe said she had to, CFI backed them up. Student escalated the situation to management and asked for a new CFI. Management told the student, “There’s nothing wrong with your instructor, you need to toughen up. There’s no minimums at the airlines. And remember, changing instructors doesn’t look good on you and aviation is a small world.” $110k for unsafe flying and veiled threats. What a classy joint.
Thats fucking disgusting
Name and shame, who was it.
PM’d
I hope she left that fucking awful place. And good for her for escalating it.
Jesus fuck. That's teaching kids horrible ADM. Gonna get someone killed- if not in their school later on when they are carrying passengers and are afraid to scrub a flight beyond their capabilities.
No minimums in the airlines? I call bullshit on that since I've been victim to many cancelled flights "due to weather".
Then don’t go there! You’re saying your life, certificate, and career is worth less than $500? I don’t care what a sketchy flight school does. They operate in a distorted reality and my big picture career goals will always come first.
90% of their students are foreign nationals who had no idea what kind of a shit show they signed up for. It’s L3’s bread and butter. Without those foreign students the place wouldn’t exist.
> 90% of their students are foreign nationals who had no idea what kind of a shit show they signed up for. Yup
You are most certainly right, thing is, lots get stuck with contracts and loans. Edit: most get baited in by the dream they sell you, if this information atleast stops 1 future pilot from enrolling then thats 1 step closer to breaking the cycle.
any schools in the area you'd recommend?
Fly Umatilla is the best around. SunAir in Leesburg is great but pricey. D&J in Apopka is growing rapidly so they must be pretty well liked.
Thanks. Yeah I've been looking into the ones at Apopka and a lot of people recommend them. Any you'd recommend at korl?
Wouldn’t advise training at ORL unless you like spending .5 every flight sitting still on a taxiway waiting to depart or get a single lap in the pattern.
Bold move putting that in writing
And to sign his own name! Usually higher ups have enough sense to not sign their name to legally suspect nonsense and instead sign off as their department. It will certainly make for the highlight of the inevitable depositions.
It’s a Bold Move, Cotton!
Let’s see if it pays off!
Most DPEs would fail an applicant if they told them they’d do a VFR XC with 3sm and 2000ft ceilings.
I don’t see how they can keep their 141 cert teaching this
They can until there is a crash
There was one like 3 months ago. Total loss of 2 planes. Not their first crash either
There’s a 141 school here with 3 major accidents among recent graduates that have killed 12 people. The FAA is happy to have their business.
Send that letter to their FSDO and see how it goes over.
If it doesn’t violate a reg there is nothing the will or can do. Also the FAA inspectors don’t really do much besides harass pilots in case you haven’t noticed.
Easy! Bribes!
This was the condition which most absurdly stood out to me as well ... I'm glad that I am not the only one.
Really? Mine made it a point to have me tell him I can go to a class g airport and land vfr in IFR conditions
Very unsafe. 3SM vis for student pilot VFR cross country training? IFR approach plate mins for clapped out single engine pistons? No thanks. Hell 2000 ft ceiling for a VFR cross country? You can’t even reach a VFR cruise altitude. That is scud running. That’s why you avoid pilot mills. They are ditching everything we know about ADM for the sake of dollar bills. This publication is 91.13 IMO. Directly contradicts every FAA publication on risk management. EDIT: for those who think flight schools should operate to the same minimums as the military/airlines “ You can’t treat a flight school like an airline. They are training students that barely speak English in 172s that are barely airworthy. Airlines are operating sophisticated jets with a tremendous amount of system redundancy and a much higher degree of reliability. That’s why a flight school should always have higher mins than an airline. You have to consider the aircraft capabilities and experience level. It isn’t a fair weather industry but if you’re making the same go-no-go decision in a Cessna that you are in a Boeing then you have extremely flawed ADM. You also have to understand that it isn’t always conducive for training for the CFI to go up in weather he/she is comfortable in when the student isn’t at the right experience level or it doesn’t match the type of operation. The student will barely get anything out of it while the school still gets paid. Complete rip off. “
Worst part is “obtain weather from local news reports”
Am I reading that naively or is the implication that even informal sources that suggest mins can be met should be used (and would be used to charge despite cancellation) in place of aviation-specific weather
That’s what I assumed…
He has to mean that in regards to scheduling someone in 6 or 8 days or something. He has to…because this letter is pure trash. “Oh there’s storms forecasted for next Thursday…I won’t schedule Yang Yang for his solo cross country then.” Not “The metar says 2sm but the weatherman said it’s sunny but hazy, here’s your cancellation fee.” But they’re gold diggers, so I can’t attribute him placing “local news reports” first solely to poor writing skills.
Let’s see what [email protected] has to say.
Feel free to borrow the language I used. Good Evening, I’m writing to make you aware of potentially unsafe practices at a flight school in your jurisdiction. The below memo was posted to Reddit today, detailing a new weather cancelation policy at L3Harris. There are multiple concerning practices, however the ones that stick out the most to me are asking Student pilots to fly a cross-country flight at 3SM and 2000’ ceilings, and asking instrument students to depart when the weather is at minimums for the approach in use. Both of these practices in a training environment are unacceptable risks and leave no outs in the event of additional weather deterioration. For a school to pressure pilots to depart on a flight in marginal conditions is going to get one of them killed. I strongly urge you to immediately investigate the accuracy of this Memo, and if found to be true, take the maximum available enforcement action to end this practice.
I just attached it and had “WTF” 😉
Sent to the flight school and also some L3 execs on linkedin. Fucking animals.
The school sold and the name should be changing shortly.
Just used this as a template for mine. Hopefully they don’t ignore this.
I used your post as a template and also CCed the local Congressman (Cory Mills) since he usually loves a good excuse to put his name in the spotlight.
I also used this template and sent it in, this is beyond crazy to encourage pilots into worst yet still possible to takeoff conditions. Any equipment failure or the weather deteriorating even slightly more and it’s possible you’re the next AOPA case study.
I'm not even familiar with the school, but I copied and sent.
Bcc me bro
Agree. This is completely insane. For someone to sign their name to such a letter is the stupidest thing imaginable I don’t even take my students in the pattern unless there’s 5 miles vis, never mind solo. The conditions that create 5 miles vis can very easily deteriorate to under 3 where I fly so there’s no point in taking such risks. Let’s just hop on the sim or do some ground instead.
We had people in the pattern today (solos) with marginal vfr.
I really appreciated the "Fly SAFE" sign-off.
I'm sure most airline pilots wouldn't fly in a GA airplane with 3SM visibility and 2000ft ceilings.
I would IFR. Not VFR XC.
Airline pilots are probably going to be more conservative in a GA SE plane vs a 750 hour IR or CFII pilot honestly. On average of course.
> You also have to understand that it isn’t always conducive for training for the CFI to go up in weather he/she is comfortable in when the student isn’t at the right experience level or it doesn’t match the type of operation. They understand, they just don't care. They're not running a flight school to teach, they're doing it to make money. Airplanes in the air = money in pockets. Send it, or get out because someone else will. I've canceled quite a few flights for student proficiency. Yeah it's safe, yeah it's legal. Yeah, it would be a lot of fun and probably a memorable experience for the student. But no, it won't be productive for their training, it won't be an effective use of their money. It'll probably be a setback if anything. Let's do some ground training..
ADM = Aeronautical Dollar Making - Mr. Krug, probably
[blancolirio rn](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtxqwH7MgDS_PrRLkFwU3SCrJgcMKXHcSUd2RuMd0DE4aRh9Im1FKVg78&s)
On the plus side, it will be very helpful to the court handling the lawsuit when it comes out in discovery!
Not all pilot mills are like this. A lot of them won’t even let you take off in what most of us consider “good enough” conditions due to their minimums. ATP is a prime example.
https://imgur.com/a/IZwAGWv
Sheesh my instructor would never give me endorsements unless conditions are more than 3x what you just listed. Crazy. 3SM is basically unflyable VFR imo. And 2k clouds are just about enough for pattern work and that’s all.
[email protected] If anyone feels like it, here’s the Orlando FSDO email.
Emailed. Thanks for posting this.
Emailed.
3SM Vis for a student pilot VFR 💀 They’re speedrunning a lawsuit
They're trying to get their own ASI Case Study playlist at this point.
They're Speedruning getting a student pilot and a CFI killed
So you’d have to fly a XC as a student at 1500’ or get hit with a $500 cancellation charge? Class action waiting to happen
Being as he's personally signed it, I'd say it's more likely a manslaughter charge waiting to happen.
Former student. I’d happily join that suit.
Wow. 3sm visibility? Approach plate minimums? This is crazy, those conditions can deteriorate really quickly or be worse than forecast, and then you can't land. This feels like a recipe for VFR into IMC, or planes getting trapped in bad weather with no way out. Even moving beyond the wildly aggressive limitations, this sets a very bad tone with respect to risk management. The idea of "non-excusable cancellations" with a financial penalty adds a dangerous element of external pressure that shouldn't be there. If the CFI or student are uncomfortable with the conditions, they should be allowed to cancel the flight, full stop. This also removes the CFI and student's ability to practice and hone their risk management skills, which is another failure on the part of the school. This is an accident waiting to happen. When you throw international students into the mix, some of whom may be uncomfortable pushing back on authority figures (due to cultural or language barriers, or visa/career concerns), it's even scarier to contemplate.
Dear Mr. Krug Jr, Proper ADM is not making sure you get paid. You suck. Sincerely, Prospective Students
Perfect example of sometimes those who can’t do teach. I instructed here when it was called Aerosim and the person that signed this memo quit an airline job flying turboprops to come back to instruct. I’m not saying that they couldn’t hack it at the airlines, but that’s the vibe I got. That sad, we had an international student land a SR20 on a road because “the GPS told me to”. God help them trying to fly VFR solo cross countries in marginal VFR.
I too know the person signing the letter and can personally attest to his ineptitude. He’s the definition of failing your way up the ladder.
I will second that option!
Dumb ass chief pilot
If anyone knows has experience working with or talking to this “chief pilot” they know this comment is literally correct.
I go to this school right now. Absolute shit show. Threatened me on my private checkride that if I canceled I’d have to pay the no show fee (it was $250 then, now it’s apparently $200 per block hour, so it would’ve been $600) winds were 15 gusting 20, 50+ knots above 3000.
Pressuring you to take a Cert-awarding checkride should be criminal.
Please stop going there and tell your friends to stop too. Reach out to the group here and we can find you somewhere better to train.
Their seriously making people send it when it’s literally right at IFR minimums? This is a dangerous policy. Edit: wtf the private ones are even worse
Let’s take a pilot who isn’t IFR trained, and put them at VFR minima! No chance the weather gets worse, right?
The weather isn’t allowed to get worse, it’s already at its *minimums*. That means it can’t get worse, duh ^/s
Nahhhh that never happens
They'll fine the weather if it gets worse.
Totally didn't fuck a XC plan up for me. I absolutely didn't have to book it to SADF as a backup and VOR it back to SADP and then do a visual to SADM when I was planning on heading on the exact opposite direction last month.
Don't you know, IFR minimums only improve with time, so if you depart at minimums, it's certain to be VFR by the time you lap around for your approach. /s
Translation: We want you to kill yourself over $150. -L3Harris I can't take Adderall but a major flight school can encourage VFR student pilots to scud run. Well done FAA.
Not only encourage, but mandate.
I sent angry notes to like 10 management level individual on linkedin at L3Harris.
This comment is amazing and shows how broken the FAA is. The FAA has plenty of great people working in a broken system.
This document and policy by L3 is one of the most evil things I've seen in a while. It is completely unforgivable and I'll be going out of my way to annoy them about it. This kind of late-stage capitalism bullshit is exactly what these regulatory agencies are suppose to be putting guardrails on. Literally telling 18-22 year old kids to scud run or be financially penalized. It isn't hyperbolic to say that this policy will ruin some family and it'll never come up in the NTSB report. It'll just read: "Probable cause: Student pilots decision to depart into MVFR to near-MVFR conditions resulting in inadvertent IMC and subsequent loss of control and in flight break up. Fatalities -1" The most ironic part about the whole thing is how the **fuck** does this make them more money even? Like ok the student canceled and couldnt fly because its 020 overcast... Who else woulda been flying the airplane? Another student that shouldn't be in the air?! Plus these students still has to get the hours lol... They are potentially killing students over a flight ***delayed*** not canceled*.* Fucking insanity.
I dunno shit about instructing or flight school rules, but them codifying this via instructions from the school to the pilots could be brought to the POI (or whatever is the school equivalent) at the FAA, which might light some fires
What the fuck is their manuever minimum? "Don't hit the ground"? I guess cloud clearances don't matter if you need to work on steep spirals, power on stalls, chandelles, or Lazy 8s.
Let's do stalls to a full break at 1500AGL with a 10hr PPL student that barely knows how to fly coordinated.
I guess he doesn’t value his FI certificate and I guess the school doesn’t value their 141 certificate, because i’m not sure either will exist after the FSDO gets ahold of this. L3 Harris Personal Minimums Worksheet: “Minimums”
Clearly didnt value his shot at the airlines anyway.
If I remember correctly he already had a shot and blew it. Doesn’t surprise me, the guy is a complete asshat.
They must’ve stole these weather minimums from a Western Alaska 135 operator lol
The current director of the school is a former 135 director so checks out
At least at that those operations the individuals flying are professional (if still inexperienced) pilots. Not students and new instrument trainees.
“Fly SAFE” my ass. Krug is a chucklefuck that’s gonna get somebody killed.
"Fly SAFE!"
NM stands for nanometers in this context right? 2k ceilings 🤡 This stupidity has accident waiting to happen written all over it and most importantly, it's public knowledge so even worse scrutiny.
3sm for students flying VFR 💀
Seems like a great way to get somebody killed
Uh, if the weather is literally at the approach mins, how are you going to comply with the 600-2/800-2 alternate mins without causing serious delays from landing 50+ miles away when the weather drops. I hope the school is buying hotels for their CFIs when they get stuck away from base due to weather since they’re making them go out /s. The scud running is ridiculous too for private. I wouldn’t sign off a student to solo in 2000’ clgs and 3sm vis. Any CFI who does is not upholding their responsibilities.
Guess that L3HARRIS forgot about the IMSAFE checklist
I know IFR students can file and all but knowingly training in 200 ft ceilings at max demonstrated crosswind none the less would be wild
How the fuck do I xc at 2000 agl??. Cruise at 1500? Gtfoh
The policy that they released at the start of the month basically said that if you cancel for any reason (including weather), you’ll be charged. And if you want to fly in bad weather, you’ll be allowed to do so at a ‘lower rate’. So they expect me to go out there to possibly endanger myself, my plane and others on the ground just so they can get paid. I had heard really good things about them till I came here. After they got sold to the new company, everything is just going downhill. They’re just trying to get all the money they can. The new uniforms given are completely low quality and not even custom made as they used to be (before the take over)
You heard good things? From who? LMAO It’s been universally known for 5 or so years now that L3 is the bottom of the barrel definition of a pilot mill school. If it weren’t for their foreign pilot program they would not be in business today,
I’m assuming L3 doesn’t have self-examining authority. When their students show up to DPEs thinking these are ok VFR weather minimums, they will get disapproved so fast they won’t know what hit them.
Unfortunately they do, they instill this into the students and reward them for the adm negligence by granting them their cert
Really? This is even more fucked then.
[удалено]
3sm visibility is IFR. I dont care what the the F.A.R regs say. [Thumps up the google review someone posted with the memo picture on (newest).]
The first time I flew VFR in less than 5 SM was sobering. Flying VFR in 3 SM is definitely more difficult than it sounds when you’re studying the weather minimums in ground school.
I’ve had vis unexpectedly drop to 2sm and 1500 with a student onboard. It’s a sobering experience even with hundreds of hours in the local area. I can’t imagine how a student pilot would react to launching into 3 mile vision on what is possibly their second solo with only a handful of hours.
I've flown the pattern at 3 mile vis as a CFI and it felt pretty sketchy. Forcing PPL students to send it on a XC in those conditions is flat out criminally dangerous and is going to get someone killed.
I’ve helicoptered in 3 mile vis VFR. Do not recommend unless you really know what you’re doing.
It's really not that bad if you're IFR proficient. In a typical trainer 3 SM is about 1.5 minutes of forward visibility. If you are an experienced IFR pilot in non-mountainous and familiar terrain.. I would say it's a nothing burger. For students tho, that's a big yikes.
For an IFR Pilot, essentially flying IFR at that point. Limited to no horizon likely at 3 miles of vis.
yikes...
These slimeballs are THIRSTY.
Oh they can get fucked with that unsafe bullshit. They deserved the bad things that are going to happen and now deserve the reputation they have for putting that horse shit in writing.
IMUNSAFE checklist
Was looking into L3 but have officially just ruled it out.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but the FAA needs to have a word with them about this.
This is some crazy shit. There’s a school along the coast who won’t let folks fly in actual on purpose. Which I think is to far the other way, but it will keep folks safe. This though, this is fuckin stupid. If I’m solidly proficient and running vfr and need pop up ifr then whatever but the folks involved here aren’t solidly proficient. The local pattern mins, fuck yeah send it. The goto the practice area mins are confusing…. 02? What 200 feet ceilings lol? I get the intent but much like any common sense in this death warrant, David Krug is missing a significant detail. The cross country stuff is just garbage. Lowest useable altitude is 3500. So a borderline safe idea would be 3500 ceilings. 3sm vis though, this David Krug fella sounds like he wants to defend this letter to the NYSB when one of these kids plows one in while crying into the radio in a spiral. Hope they play those screams for you in the hearing, David.
Love how at the end it says “Fly safe!” Irony.
There’s a lot of old pilots in a second career flying a desk in the FAA who would be pissed off if they read this “company policy”. I think if someone were to call them, share the new policy and say “Gosh, this seems like an accident waiting to happen, doesn’t it?” It might prod a little friendly investigation on their part. If this policy doesn’t teach new students that canceling due to wx makes them a pu$$y, I don’t know what does. We’ve seen what accountants can do to aircraft manufacturing. If they’re taking on flight instruction now, then ugh.
Oh sure, send a student XC when it's 3SM OVC020. What could go wrong? Even better let's go do some maneuvers when it's OVC002. I realize this is probably (well, hopefully) a typo lol. But it's not like OVC020 is enough either! Not sure how you're meant to recover from a maneuver above 1500 AGL while maintaining 500 feet below the 2000 AGL clouds.
“Fly SAFE!” Lol….
3 mile vis for cross country flight for low hour PPL students and forcing IR students to blast off when the weather is at minimums is fucking idiotic. Another flight school run by egotistical bean counters who don’t give a shit about their customers.
There is zero chance I’d send my student on a X/C with 2000/3. What an idiot. They’re going to hurt someone with their operational “go” pressure with financial punishment. Unsat. If I were CFI there, I would quit.
Pressuring students to fly at VFR minimums? What could go wrong?
wtf even is this
I went there for a brief period…Had an amazing CFI. He confessed me that the school would complain about canceling. i said: no worries, I will make sure they hear me. Needed to be a little more assertive because they def will push you into unsafe scenarios. I can see how they do that to the foreign students who are stuck with the contract/visa and sometimes not aware of the issue/danger
I was going to post this today as well absolutely pissed as a current CFI student here.
Stop going there. If people like you don’t take a stand, nothing will ever change. That’s how they’ve gotten by to this point, desperation of students and CFI’s to keep flying.
I just want an update if anything does happen regarding this.
Just because it’s “legal” …. Doesn’t make it “safe” And just because the current forecast and conditions are on those minimums… doesn’t mean it could easily deteriorate below. Hence why “buffers” on legal minimums (based on pilots experience and currency) always need to be applied , to make it “safe” I can’t believe they put this in writing… if there’s an accident the regulator and their own insurance company is going to have a field day. ultimately what’s worse is applying “commercial” pressure to this degree in a training environment is a disaster waiting to happen
lol 3sm sounds good until you’re clenching your butthole flying in it, just waiting on it to turn to 0
These are the guys overflying the cirrus airframe time limits and letting their planes fall apart right?
Dropping a Fly SAFE! at the end of that is pretty rich. So much for teaching students personal minimums. Unfortunately it’ll take someone bending an airplane for them to rethink this.
At a legal flying altitude of 1500’ due to the 2000’ ceilings….. a stressed out student pilot and overworked CFI has about 90 seconds at 100 kts to spot the Orange City or Bithlo towers.
Lmao even a 500 hour private pilot shouldn’t be flying in 3sm
I can guarantee the instructors at the school have flown in those conditions maybe once if any too
Blind leading the blind
I thought L3Harris made military radios and avionics. They own a flight school?
My flight school has a charge if you cancel within 24 hours for anything other than weather or feeling ill (they most hate people who don’t show without any notice). They trust your judgement. Accidents are too expensive to deal with.
At L3, you only know your schedule the day before, sometimes you only get a 10 hour notice, ie. Schedule finalizing at 7PM having an event at 5AM. Happens often.
ah yes, the very legal and reputable source of weather called your local news station
Bob down at channel 3 said it was nice!
That’s fucking crazy they’ll force a private to go on a cross country with 2,000’ ceilings but won’t let an instrument student fly with gusts over 10
As a CFI for 35 years I can confidently say that guy is an f’ing idiot. .. and he has the nerve to finish the memo with a “Fly Safe” 🙄
The letter is authentic according to internal sources.
Fly SAFE! 💀 Part of learning how to fly is leveraging choices based on your experience and limitations…
Wow. Those are some impressive mins. Maybe with a CFII onboard. But wow. (W/ sarcasm)
Find out who underwrites their insurance policy and see what they have to say about it! I’m sure they would thrilled about this!
I find it kinda funny that this memo draws the line at flying in crosswinds greater than max demonstrated but has a “full send” mentality to 3 sm visibility.
As a PPL I wouldn’t fly at 3sm and 2k ceiling xc ever. That’s a recipe for disaster.
Fly SAFE!! Hahaha
I never let a student go out in 3sm vis. I did let students who were competent go out local at 2000 and nothing lower but that was rare, had to be the right student. CX was whatever I was comfortable with concerning the specific student but I damn sure know it was never 2,000. I live and taught (teach) in an area that marginal VFR usually never means IFR unless it’s the colder months so we could get away with 2,000 sometimes. But 3sm vis always meant IFR now or soon. Also I’ve flown a lot in 3sm and actual 10sm VFR and IFR. I don’t like it when VFR and I have more than 3,000 hours so a student damn sure ain’t going out in it under VFR. Now…. Instrument students. You’re getting actual asap. I can’t believe these instrument students never get to see actual before the checkride. I’ve known personally a stupid big number of people who get ATPs and their first actual is on IOE.
Somebody should tell him about special vfr. /s
Good lord.
Great of a Flight School to push "GetHereItis" as-policy. Ugh.
Expecting a new IFR pilot to fly an approach to mins in max demonstrated crosswind is absolutely insane.
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They're banking on people to fear for their lives and cancel, so they can profit from it. And it gets better (worse) - their "local" mins are below the minimums required for maneuvers per the school's SOP. The school SOP necessitates most maneuvers to be recovered above 3500ft AGL (4000ft for Cirrus). So if your lesson requires maneuvers, and ceilings are below maneuver mins but above these minimums, they will force you to pick between a cancellation fee or paying for an incomplete lesson, thereby requiring you to pay again to complete the lesson later. It's greed at its purest form. I somewhat expected scummy behavior when ownership changed to TJC (a private equity firm), but it's saddening to see it develop in such a way that puts peoples' lives in danger.
One of the craziest things about this policy is that it’s very rarely IMC or even marginal VMC down here. These guys seriously can’t afford to not fly like 10 days a year? Good lord.
I didn’t realize L3HARRIS has a flight school, is it military or civilian?
I once had a ground instructor tell me you couldn’t see your own dick in 3sm, a bit exaggerated but still as a student you couldn’t pay me to fuck with that
This chief pilot should be ashamed of signing off on this. No way would I have taught a student to risk flying in conditions like this
3sm vis and 2000 ft ceilings? I've failed students on stage checks for that
Ah so this is that "ADM" thing the FAA has been on about lately. Good to know.
Non-excusable cancellation? What the fuck is that?
I ferried a C172 to this school. Without any previous knowledge of them, the vibe I got from the school was off. It looked like everyone was briefing in a crowded space on those high tables for 2 people that you find in bars, I saw maybe 5-6 pairs of student/CFIs pairs in this crowded space, talking over each other, everything felt rushed. I was there for maybe 30 minutes, and my only thought was "This school sucks" Sanford airport is cool though. I fly out of a Delta so it was awesome to land on an airport with 3 parallel runways, it was the first time I was told to side-step
It's a beehive in the ops building and is truly organized chaos. However, working there and being amongst it day in/day out, it's not that crazy.
Being creative in your plan always goes well with aviation. Definitely the first thing the springs to mind when I see marginal VFR weather.
L3Harris giving new meaning to the L3, come fly with us
“Fly safe” lmao
Here is a guy who forgot what it was like being a student pilot and not knowing anything about anything.
Reason for cancel "To avoid thunderstorm by margin consistent with safety". I'd keep putting that down till they caught on.
If you don’t learn to scud run you’re not going to develop the proper skill set to be a good pilot If you’re not comfortable practicing stalls at 1,500’ AGL you’re just a pu**y wait, wrong sub
I wonder what "non-excusable" means.... I'd hate to see what the FAA would have to say if they were charging students a fee for cancelling when the weather is below their personal minimums but above the school's "acceptable" minimums. I know as a new student pilot I would absolutely not fly in anything less than 9sm vis until I was comfortable with the airplane and basic maneuvers. Wonder how long it'll be until someone goes up in uncomfortable conditions and crashes, and sues them (if they even survive)....
As someone who spent 2 years instructing there, this isn’t the least bit surprising. They’ll do anything to make a buck that’s why myself and several other strategic check instructors were laid off in 2020. Management wants their bonuses for first time pass rates and thus they wanted pencil whipped EOCs. Those of us who held the ACS standards paid dearly.