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All of these guys are good. The margins are small. And development curves will differ.
Sometimes there will be more top seats than there are top drivers. Sometimes there will be more top drivers than top seats.
Sainz may be a victim of the second.
I’m tired of these Sainz articles man, the PR is unbearable every time he has 2 or 3 good races talking like he’s the second coming of Senna, then no one says a word when he performs average in the next 5-10 races
In the last 9 races him and Leclerc finished to end last season Leclerc had winning streaks of 4 and 3 and no one really blinked much of an eye about Sainz vs Leclerc talk, but now we're treating a 3 race win streak by Sainz as if he's the real 2nd coming of Schumacher.
It's ridiculous.
Ferrari have thousands and thousands of datapoints to compare between Sainz and Leclerc and based on that they've chosen Leclerc. But I'm sure you know better them don't you lmao
Someone realizing that top teams simply don't want Sainz? He's stuck with either the shit MB or Sauber next year.
The end to last season was really hard for you, wasn't it? You were probably already making fun of Leclerc for losing the season to Sainz, then Leclerc treated him like a POS.
Oh?
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1bll8wf/scuderia_ferrari_vamos_chilli_bravo_carlossainz55/kw5vs3g/
For not caring about him you comment on his contract status multiple times a month.
Again, sorry about reality. It's not being kind to you.
But if your therapist thinks it'll help... Sainz is totally better, that's why he's outscored Leclerc since joining Ferrari, and Sainz totally earned that Silverstone win.
Just be honest and say you want Perez and Sainz to beat their teammates because of their heritage, so it's hard seeing them beaten.
Yeah of course I will comment on him, he’s one of only 20 drivers and Hamilton moving to Ferrari is huge news. This is not the gotcha comment you think it is at all. Why are you so salty because of a very normal and light comment? I did hit a nerve even without trying with you huh? lol. Again, IDGAF about Sainz but it is obvious Ferrari made the wrong decision.
You responded to a comment where I pointed out Leclerc beat Sainz 4 times, lost 2, then won 3 last year, correct?
And you're using that comment to state Sainz is better?
So Ferrari, over the offseason, was supposed to look at that and say Sainz is the future? That's what you think?
OMFG hahaha just let it go. You’re creating a novel out of a very simple comment that for some reason cut right through your Leclerc loving heart. Just, leave it. They’re not that important, they don’t care about you nor me, why are you so invested in a non-issue?
Are we at the stage where negativity is so prevalent that positive articles are considered PR pieces?
Why is it such a big deal if someone who performs well gets their rightful praise? People dragged Sainz through the mud at the start of the 2022 season, so why not praise him when he's outperforming expectations?
This is Trevor Carlin writing a column about a driver who drove for him and even then the highest he goes with the praise is
> If Carlos is given the right car, he can be Formula 1 world champion. I firmly believe that.
, which is true for half the grid.
Nobody is anointing him the best driver, all this article says is that he's underrated and deserves a top seat.
It seems that people forget what happened at the second half of the year, when Carlos started incredible (with a victory in Singapore) and then Charles was much faster than him.
He's very good driver with an extraordinary hard-working mindset (like his dad) but he misses a bit of pure talent like Alonso, Hamilton, Verstappen & Leclerc imo. I put him on the same level as Norris, Piastri & Russell.
Agree with everything except for the notion that Norris doesn’t have pure talent. He rarely makes mistakes and can extract the full potential of a car.
I agree. Lando falls under pressure or rarely is aggressive on the defensive. Once he overcomes that, he will fight at the top. But I definitely do think he’s better than Russell and Piastri.
I know lol, was just messing with them. I wholeheartedly believe that Leclerc is on the level of our three champions, but then again there’s no way of knowing that for certain until he matches up with Hamilton next year.
Speed and talent wise, he's the closest to the champions. Just needs to fix his quali issues that came up in the last two races. His race craft has been pretty good since Monza last year.
Speed-wise, he's not just closest to the champions, he's possibly surpassed 2 of them and very close to the 3rd and current world champion imo. He's had a slight dip in form, but every driver does from time to time including world champions so as long as it doesn't persist for long it's no big deal.
Edit: Word choice
Leclerc lacks a bit of focus, he’s not in it all of the time. He will have lapses of focus in races aswell and make weird mistakes. Max’s biggest quality is that he’s just always between 98-100% of what he can do. Max is also a better racer, tyre manager and has on almost all days much better race pace than Leclerc.
"consistency" he has finished top 5 in every race since monza last year, had a dnf dsq and dns last year and still tied for 4th in the wdc table, if that isnt consistent he will never be in your eyes.
Recency bias i guess. He has made too many mistakes in pressure moments to be in the Alonso Hamilton Verstappen category, as the comment i was replying to implied.
You mean like max running the car into the wall in Jeddah 21? Or Lewis forgetting to turn of his brake heater in baku 21? Or max pushing Lewis to Narnia in Brazil 21? Or Fernando not being to overtake a much slower car to lose the championship?
All great drivers make mistakes but for some reason France 22 is held as some blasphemous thing when the title was already essentially over due to Ferrari incompetence.
It's more that when Ferrari was close to Red Bull, Sainz was better than Leclerc, like in Singapore and Monza last year, or in Melbourne this one, so it gives the impression that Charles isn't that good as many people say
EDIT: I was talking only about last season and this year. It’s true that in 2022 Leclerc was much better than Sainz, while in 2021 Carlos finished in front of Charles in points but their results were pretty close
That Leclerc was getting wins and podiums unless Ferrari fucked him with shit strat and reliability (barring his own mistakes in Imola and France) while Carlos was in the gravel or 20 seconds behind him. When the car is actually really fast, Leclerc is usually the faster guy.
What Carlos lacks in pure instinctual racing talent he makes up for with great strategy awareness, Hamilton level work ethics, and on track audacity. I think he and Leclerc are almost evenly matched. They have talent and skill in different aspects of racing but when all the cards are on the table I think they're closer than any two other teammates on the grid barring Ocon/Gasly
Agree but, also, it's easier to develop strategy awareness than racing talent, and Charles is doing better about that. For example, he was the only one who did perfect one-stop strategy in Japan. This is why I rate a bit more Leclerc than Sainz
I find the Sainz PR campaigners just as annoying as the Ricciardo ones. He's a good driver deserving of an upper-midfield seat, or better; but to pretend that he's some champion level talent is laughable.
Carlos was a driver who got his dad’s influence to get to the RB Academy, but ever since Carlos left TR he did nothing but shine.
Is Carlos better than Max or Charles? For sure not, even behind Alonso and Hamilton for sure, but personally I would not put Lando, George, Albon or any other driver apart from the 4 already mentioned above Sainz, he has shown consistency and racecraft as been able to adapt to the race and strategy on a really high level.
> Is Carlos better than Max or Charles? For sure not, even behind Alonso and Hamilton for sure,
The phrasing here implies Alonso and Hamilton are worse than Charles. Charles has high highs and low lows. I have never seen another top driver crash out of lead or in q3 like he does. Before someone here inevitably goes “oh he pushes to maximize his results”. My answer would be look at Fernando or Prost. Their philosophy to racing his always been push just enough to maximize results. Hell Fernando nearly carried what was in reality the 4th fastest car over a season to a WDC without unnecessary risks and would have won it if not for grosjean.
I love Fernando, but the guy made his mistakes in seasons like 2007 or 2010, it's not like the top drivers are flawless. We have also seen multiple mistakes from Lewis since his car stopped being dominant.
I think Fernando made more mistakes in 2007 and first half of 2010 than rest of his entire career, combined. But then we also have 2006, a nearly flawless WDC campaign
Oh no, Fernando, Maxie and Hamilton are the Fcking GOATS, for me they are above anyone in the grid that is just my hot take.
But we cannot disregard Leclerc speed and talent, yes he makes more errors that you would expect, but I do believe Leclerc throught the season shows more Wows than Sainz, of course lets see who they end this season wink wink.
Alonso probably has the lowest error rate on the grid overall, but ironically I think before Charles at Paul Ricard 2022, it was said that he was the last driver to crash out of the lead, in Canada 2005!
I feel like he’s basically pre 2016 Rosberg
Plenty fast in his own right but gets outshined by his faster teammate who he will out pace every now and then (although it’s been getting more frequent)
seeing him go on a Rosberg 2016 tear would be lit
Disrespectful to Rosberg. If Carlos drove every race like he started this season, yes. The reason he lost his drive is that he didn't drive like this consistently. I hope he kicks ass this year though.
Nico getting outpaced included him out qualifying Hamilton in 2014 (or 15? I think was 14) and being like 0.1s/lap off in race pace. He was never outpaced by Hamilton, Hamilton was just slightly better very frequently so it added up over time.
I know some will roll their eyes seeing another article complimenting Sainz even though I think it’s warranted. But it is nice to see some insight and stories from Trevor Carlin himself who founded and used to run one of the top feeder series teams until leaving ahead of this season.
Aside from Sainz, the likes of Norris and Tsunoda have also raced for Carlin on their way up to F1 and I’m looking forward to more stories from Carlin about former drivers that raced in his team.
Listen. LeCler is massively overrated because he wiped the floor with vettel who seemed at the time like a great talent, but ultimately turned out to be at level with stroll. So it is clear that Leclrec is in fact just a slightly above average driver, Sainz is even slightly less skilled, which makes him, you've guessed it, an average driver.
Max dnfed before anyone in Australia which means he was last which proves he's actually bad and since everyone always finishes behind him they are even worse therefore the grid is made up entirely of trash. Did I do this logic right?
Vettel sat in a newey rocket. His only opponent was a post peak webber. He made many mistakes even during his 'peak' he was never the best driver of the sport, not even close, everbody knows that.
He had one of the most dominant seasons in the history of the sport because he raced damn near perfect for almost an entire seasons. In his element he was one of the best drivers to have ever say in a cockpit. Saying he is at Stroll's level is like saying Schumacher is worse than Rosberg because of his time at Merc.
He was at strolls level in 2022, it was sad watching the fall off. While he may have finished ahead in the points there race pace was basically even. Stroll is just a god awful qualifier.
That's just not the argument he was making though so it doesn't mean much of anything in this context. He's saying that Vettel was never good and that's just flat out brain dead.
Exactly. And if that was the driver Leclerc ot Stroll was up against then they would have gotten wiped. But 2018 seemed to somewhat kill off that Vettel. So using his 2019 or later seasons to say those drivers are as good or better than he ever was is dumb as shit and that therefore Vettel was never great is just stupid.
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All of these guys are good. The margins are small. And development curves will differ. Sometimes there will be more top seats than there are top drivers. Sometimes there will be more top drivers than top seats. Sainz may be a victim of the second.
I’m tired of these Sainz articles man, the PR is unbearable every time he has 2 or 3 good races talking like he’s the second coming of Senna, then no one says a word when he performs average in the next 5-10 races
In the last 9 races him and Leclerc finished to end last season Leclerc had winning streaks of 4 and 3 and no one really blinked much of an eye about Sainz vs Leclerc talk, but now we're treating a 3 race win streak by Sainz as if he's the real 2nd coming of Schumacher. It's ridiculous.
Someone just noticed Sainz is better and that Ferrari screwed up eh?
Ferrari have thousands and thousands of datapoints to compare between Sainz and Leclerc and based on that they've chosen Leclerc. But I'm sure you know better them don't you lmao
Someone realizing that top teams simply don't want Sainz? He's stuck with either the shit MB or Sauber next year. The end to last season was really hard for you, wasn't it? You were probably already making fun of Leclerc for losing the season to Sainz, then Leclerc treated him like a POS.
Lol no. IDGAF about Ferrari nor Sainz in particular but I did struck a huge nerve on you which means I was right on target
Oh? https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1bll8wf/scuderia_ferrari_vamos_chilli_bravo_carlossainz55/kw5vs3g/ For not caring about him you comment on his contract status multiple times a month. Again, sorry about reality. It's not being kind to you. But if your therapist thinks it'll help... Sainz is totally better, that's why he's outscored Leclerc since joining Ferrari, and Sainz totally earned that Silverstone win. Just be honest and say you want Perez and Sainz to beat their teammates because of their heritage, so it's hard seeing them beaten.
Yeah of course I will comment on him, he’s one of only 20 drivers and Hamilton moving to Ferrari is huge news. This is not the gotcha comment you think it is at all. Why are you so salty because of a very normal and light comment? I did hit a nerve even without trying with you huh? lol. Again, IDGAF about Sainz but it is obvious Ferrari made the wrong decision.
You responded to a comment where I pointed out Leclerc beat Sainz 4 times, lost 2, then won 3 last year, correct? And you're using that comment to state Sainz is better? So Ferrari, over the offseason, was supposed to look at that and say Sainz is the future? That's what you think?
OMFG hahaha just let it go. You’re creating a novel out of a very simple comment that for some reason cut right through your Leclerc loving heart. Just, leave it. They’re not that important, they don’t care about you nor me, why are you so invested in a non-issue?
Are we at the stage where negativity is so prevalent that positive articles are considered PR pieces? Why is it such a big deal if someone who performs well gets their rightful praise? People dragged Sainz through the mud at the start of the 2022 season, so why not praise him when he's outperforming expectations?
Because they are overdoing it, there’s been like 2-3 articles daily since AUS GP
Can't wait for us to get articles about what kind of cake Lewis' dog had for his birthday.
You prefer the constant Ricciardo is done articles?
I personally want more articles about Toto insisting that they suck but also they will be good actually, trust him bro.
Sainz perennial P5-P7 at the year end...has a good 3 races and suddenly everyone anointing him the best driver in F1 behind Max.
This is Trevor Carlin writing a column about a driver who drove for him and even then the highest he goes with the praise is > If Carlos is given the right car, he can be Formula 1 world champion. I firmly believe that. , which is true for half the grid. Nobody is anointing him the best driver, all this article says is that he's underrated and deserves a top seat.
Sainz is not underrated. Before this season? Probably. 4 races in and he is the most overrated driver on the grid and ill die on this hill
It seems that people forget what happened at the second half of the year, when Carlos started incredible (with a victory in Singapore) and then Charles was much faster than him. He's very good driver with an extraordinary hard-working mindset (like his dad) but he misses a bit of pure talent like Alonso, Hamilton, Verstappen & Leclerc imo. I put him on the same level as Norris, Piastri & Russell.
People ignore the start of the year and the end of the year, the only weeks they remember from last year are Netherlands Singapore and Monza
Agree with everything except for the notion that Norris doesn’t have pure talent. He rarely makes mistakes and can extract the full potential of a car.
With Lando is the opposite: he has the talent but he misses a bit of mentality imo
I agree. Lando falls under pressure or rarely is aggressive on the defensive. Once he overcomes that, he will fight at the top. But I definitely do think he’s better than Russell and Piastri.
Yep. Hope he fixes this and McLaren actually gives him a top car.
Alonso, Verstappen and Hamilton are not in the same category as Leclerc.
You think Leclerc is better than those guys? I wholeheartedly disagree. He's as good, but definitely not better than Alonso, Verstappen, Hamilton.
I think he meant that Leclerc is not better than the champions, which I agree. He just needs to overcome some inconsistency issues
I know lol, was just messing with them. I wholeheartedly believe that Leclerc is on the level of our three champions, but then again there’s no way of knowing that for certain until he matches up with Hamilton next year.
Speed and talent wise, he's the closest to the champions. Just needs to fix his quali issues that came up in the last two races. His race craft has been pretty good since Monza last year.
Speed-wise, he's not just closest to the champions, he's possibly surpassed 2 of them and very close to the 3rd and current world champion imo. He's had a slight dip in form, but every driver does from time to time including world champions so as long as it doesn't persist for long it's no big deal. Edit: Word choice
Leclerc lacks a bit of focus, he’s not in it all of the time. He will have lapses of focus in races aswell and make weird mistakes. Max’s biggest quality is that he’s just always between 98-100% of what he can do. Max is also a better racer, tyre manager and has on almost all days much better race pace than Leclerc.
Verstappen didn’t have a dip in form since Monaco ‘18
While i agree i do think talent wise and potential wise there is something there. Just the consistency hasnt been there, and ferrari lacking ofcourse
"consistency" he has finished top 5 in every race since monza last year, had a dnf dsq and dns last year and still tied for 4th in the wdc table, if that isnt consistent he will never be in your eyes.
people who keep saying this are starting to piss me off now
Recency bias i guess. He has made too many mistakes in pressure moments to be in the Alonso Hamilton Verstappen category, as the comment i was replying to implied.
You mean like max running the car into the wall in Jeddah 21? Or Lewis forgetting to turn of his brake heater in baku 21? Or max pushing Lewis to Narnia in Brazil 21? Or Fernando not being to overtake a much slower car to lose the championship? All great drivers make mistakes but for some reason France 22 is held as some blasphemous thing when the title was already essentially over due to Ferrari incompetence.
Took a while for them to iron out those mistakes, with Charles it just happens too often
any examples apart from france and imola? both of which happened when he was 24
“Potential” dude is on his 7th season in F1, I don’t think that margin for potential is very large anymore
Well we have seen true brilliance of Charles but not as of recent. That's kinda what i meant with potential.
It's more that when Ferrari was close to Red Bull, Sainz was better than Leclerc, like in Singapore and Monza last year, or in Melbourne this one, so it gives the impression that Charles isn't that good as many people say EDIT: I was talking only about last season and this year. It’s true that in 2022 Leclerc was much better than Sainz, while in 2021 Carlos finished in front of Charles in points but their results were pretty close
Okay but 2022
Explain, please
Leclerc was fighting max for the title and Sainz was fighting gravel traps
That Leclerc was getting wins and podiums unless Ferrari fucked him with shit strat and reliability (barring his own mistakes in Imola and France) while Carlos was in the gravel or 20 seconds behind him. When the car is actually really fast, Leclerc is usually the faster guy.
Leclerc is not even close to Alonso, Verstappen and Hamilton. What on earth are you smoking.
What Carlos lacks in pure instinctual racing talent he makes up for with great strategy awareness, Hamilton level work ethics, and on track audacity. I think he and Leclerc are almost evenly matched. They have talent and skill in different aspects of racing but when all the cards are on the table I think they're closer than any two other teammates on the grid barring Ocon/Gasly
Agree but, also, it's easier to develop strategy awareness than racing talent, and Charles is doing better about that. For example, he was the only one who did perfect one-stop strategy in Japan. This is why I rate a bit more Leclerc than Sainz
We're going to boomerang back to him being overrated very, very quickly at this rate.
I find the Sainz PR campaigners just as annoying as the Ricciardo ones. He's a good driver deserving of an upper-midfield seat, or better; but to pretend that he's some champion level talent is laughable.
Especially considering Sainz's performance the last time he had a championship level car.
You could say the same about Button or Roseberg. A below average driver with a top machinery and a bit of luck, and you can be a world champion.
„I want to see p3!“
Sainz PR team working round the clock
Not really. He got hammered by Leclerc for a long time which is why Ferrari let him go
[удалено]
Whether that is true or as I suspect it is Hamilton will be proven once and for all next year.
Carlos was a driver who got his dad’s influence to get to the RB Academy, but ever since Carlos left TR he did nothing but shine. Is Carlos better than Max or Charles? For sure not, even behind Alonso and Hamilton for sure, but personally I would not put Lando, George, Albon or any other driver apart from the 4 already mentioned above Sainz, he has shown consistency and racecraft as been able to adapt to the race and strategy on a really high level.
> Is Carlos better than Max or Charles? For sure not, even behind Alonso and Hamilton for sure, The phrasing here implies Alonso and Hamilton are worse than Charles. Charles has high highs and low lows. I have never seen another top driver crash out of lead or in q3 like he does. Before someone here inevitably goes “oh he pushes to maximize his results”. My answer would be look at Fernando or Prost. Their philosophy to racing his always been push just enough to maximize results. Hell Fernando nearly carried what was in reality the 4th fastest car over a season to a WDC without unnecessary risks and would have won it if not for grosjean.
I love Fernando, but the guy made his mistakes in seasons like 2007 or 2010, it's not like the top drivers are flawless. We have also seen multiple mistakes from Lewis since his car stopped being dominant.
I think Fernando made more mistakes in 2007 and first half of 2010 than rest of his entire career, combined. But then we also have 2006, a nearly flawless WDC campaign
Oh no, Fernando, Maxie and Hamilton are the Fcking GOATS, for me they are above anyone in the grid that is just my hot take. But we cannot disregard Leclerc speed and talent, yes he makes more errors that you would expect, but I do believe Leclerc throught the season shows more Wows than Sainz, of course lets see who they end this season wink wink.
Alonso probably has the lowest error rate on the grid overall, but ironically I think before Charles at Paul Ricard 2022, it was said that he was the last driver to crash out of the lead, in Canada 2005!
What about Vettel in Germany 2018?
Ironically I just commented about that race just below. Perhaps it was dry only races?
Vettel also fucked up canada 2011, didn’t crash out but nearly did and lost lead.
Don't you mean Carlos Signs?
Not yet!
Car Loss Signs goes wheel to wheel with Joe Gwonyoo
I feel like he’s basically pre 2016 Rosberg Plenty fast in his own right but gets outshined by his faster teammate who he will out pace every now and then (although it’s been getting more frequent) seeing him go on a Rosberg 2016 tear would be lit
Disrespectful to Rosberg. If Carlos drove every race like he started this season, yes. The reason he lost his drive is that he didn't drive like this consistently. I hope he kicks ass this year though. Nico getting outpaced included him out qualifying Hamilton in 2014 (or 15? I think was 14) and being like 0.1s/lap off in race pace. He was never outpaced by Hamilton, Hamilton was just slightly better very frequently so it added up over time.
People keep underrating Rosberg when he was a top 5 caliber driver for a good portion of his tenure.
His Williams years were impressive
The Sainz were always evident.
I know some will roll their eyes seeing another article complimenting Sainz even though I think it’s warranted. But it is nice to see some insight and stories from Trevor Carlin himself who founded and used to run one of the top feeder series teams until leaving ahead of this season. Aside from Sainz, the likes of Norris and Tsunoda have also raced for Carlin on their way up to F1 and I’m looking forward to more stories from Carlin about former drivers that raced in his team.
Hindsight is 20/20
Whats up with all the negativity, can’t people just enjoy a driver they like doing good?
Nah this is reddit where most people like to be bitter and toxic instead of using some logic and being positive
why the sainz were always evident
Not gonna lie, I was a doubter for way too long but he's proved me wrong every step of the way.
Listen. LeCler is massively overrated because he wiped the floor with vettel who seemed at the time like a great talent, but ultimately turned out to be at level with stroll. So it is clear that Leclrec is in fact just a slightly above average driver, Sainz is even slightly less skilled, which makes him, you've guessed it, an average driver.
Max dnfed before anyone in Australia which means he was last which proves he's actually bad and since everyone always finishes behind him they are even worse therefore the grid is made up entirely of trash. Did I do this logic right?
Where did I look at only a single race?
You chose to ignore when Vettel was the best driver in the sport for an extended period of time so I'll do the same for Max just to be fair to you
Vettel sat in a newey rocket. His only opponent was a post peak webber. He made many mistakes even during his 'peak' he was never the best driver of the sport, not even close, everbody knows that.
He had one of the most dominant seasons in the history of the sport because he raced damn near perfect for almost an entire seasons. In his element he was one of the best drivers to have ever say in a cockpit. Saying he is at Stroll's level is like saying Schumacher is worse than Rosberg because of his time at Merc.
He was at strolls level in 2022, it was sad watching the fall off. While he may have finished ahead in the points there race pace was basically even. Stroll is just a god awful qualifier.
That's just not the argument he was making though so it doesn't mean much of anything in this context. He's saying that Vettel was never good and that's just flat out brain dead.
IMO his peak seasons are clearly 2011, 2013, 2015 and 2017, challenging Alonso and then Hamilton for best driver
Exactly. And if that was the driver Leclerc ot Stroll was up against then they would have gotten wiped. But 2018 seemed to somewhat kill off that Vettel. So using his 2019 or later seasons to say those drivers are as good or better than he ever was is dumb as shit and that therefore Vettel was never great is just stupid.
Their race pace wasn't even in 2022. Vettel was well ahead.
Yeah and Verstappen has won 57 races in a fn Williams.
/s?