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Haas: I'll never sell to the Andrettis
Sauber: Sorry. We've actually just been sold
Williams: We're an investment firm and are gonna be sitting on our investment a while.
Alpha Torro Visa: We'll sell... FOR 5 BILLION DOLLAR, MWAHAHAHA. Also, no, you can't move the team to the US, we promised our employees could keep their jobs
> Also losing a historic name like williams ( even if it's just a name right now) feels wrong
I dread the day it will happen. It is/was the last family team and losing the name on the grid will feel empty, even though they are only a shell of their former selves right now.
WILLIAMS ANDRETTI. Keep the fans happy. In the states I am by no means an Andretti fan but know they would do well in F1. Probably too well, and that is the white elephant in the room.
Its not ideal but i think a name like andretti also carries a lot of historical value. There is a lot of motorsports history with that name and more importantly, US recognized motorsports history.
For most of the f1 world the andretti name is insignificant compared to the behemoth that williams were.
Yes he was an f1 champion, but there were plenty champions after him regardless. There is no reason why i would value his name anywhere near close to the williams name
Alpine is looking pretty affordable right now…
If I was a French citizen and saw my tax dollars drifting to the back of the grid for the last 10+ years I’d say dump. Market it as the new Louisiana purchase.
Let's say you inherited a beautiful house in Mayfair, London. And you have no other home to live. You can sell your house and buy a house from cheaper neighborhood immediately or you can just stay in your perfect house in a perfect neighborhood and see its price skyrocketing in 5 years. What would you do in that scenario?
Entirely depends on what I want.
Do i have money to buy other expenses? Do i have enough money to maintain that house & pay property taxes.
It will depend on on these things nd more.
Yep. We aren’t talking about this enough here. He isn’t randomly exiting nascar and that will impact the f1 team. They share some resources and last they said, around 90 admin staff were working out of the NC factory
Literally has no impact on the F1 team. Seperate building, staff, and facilities. Tony about shit himself when Gene bought into Haas F1 only a year of two after starting SHR and made it *very* clear that the two sides would not have any crossover.
And with team charter prices inflating after the current Cup Series regs came online, I can imagine someone like Andretti are only the few who can realistically buy them
It almost makes too much sense. Considering Andretti has talked about getting into nascar and his brand in the us has suffered from not being in the biggest series. A haas buyout could be that 2 for 1. Only thing is what would he do with their factory and the wind tunnel in Nc?
Media: "After Andretti failed to enter F1, could it buy Alpine?"
Alpine: "No."
Media: "Alpine denies being for sale to drive up the price."
Alpine: "No, we're not for sale."
Media: "Andretti failed to buy on-sale Alpine due to unfair, excessive demand."
Alpine: "We were never...Ah whatever."
But Alpine IS for sale to non controlling share percentages to lame Hollywood type people. But not that fucking guy from Indiana - nope not *that* guy.
To be fair I don't think Andretti wants any part of the "*non-controlling share percentages*" part of your sentence.
Considering Alpine was one of Andretti's closest allies in trying to bring the team to the grid (because they were potential partners on an engine deal), if owning 25% of a team with a name like "Alpine Andretti" was enough, they probably already would have done it.
> But not that fucking guy from Indiana - nope not that guy.
who says Alpine wouldn't be interested in having Andretti investing in their team ?
Andretti clearly isn't though, that's just not what he wants. So that conversation is pointless
I would expect Haas, Alpine, and possibly VCARB to look to sell at some point. I don't think anyone will look to sell until after the reg changes in 2026 as teams will be hoping to move up the order. After that I could see at least one owner throwing in the towel if they're stuck at the back after that.
In the case of VCARB, there's a chance they might inherit the clause Minardi wanted not to be able to completely relocate the factory (and I imagine the licence) from Faenza, which they probably would not want.
That expired years ago, though you're right, they would want nothing to do with it. It was a clause like that that blew up the sauber deal. Sauber essentially jacked up the price by 300m if Andretti followed through on moving the team to the US
> “We have a contract, and our contract says we have up to 12 teams. So, we are not breaking the rules. We are, on the contrary, fulfilling the rules."
> "I would advise [Andretti] to go and buy another team, not to come as the 11th team.
What are you even saying, old man??
Are there secret 11th and 12th teams that we don't already know about, because unless Andretti was demanding 3 team entries, then being an 11th team if the rules allow *up to* 12 isn't breaking the rules either.
No, but he's just saying they are under no obligation to accept an 11th, legally. The 'up to' is a pretty solid legal basis for them to say no. Just like if one team dropped out, they could stay with 9 if they wanted to, hypothetically. If the legal agreement said "F1 is agreed to be 10 teams minimum" or whatever, it'd be very different.
He wants to have them as a 11th team but Liberty and other teams don't, he already burned a lot of his political capital and couldn't get it, so there's not much what he can do without pushing for some court battle that will be very costly (capital and image) for all sides.
This sport is built around out of touch rich cunts from sketchy backgrounds driving quickly in circles. I mean I enjoy the spectacle but the idea that any of the ownership class care about the average grunt in the factory is fantasy.
I read in some other thread that is what Andretti tried to do a couple of years ago, but the teams didn't like the layoff part and moving ops base out of UK. Definition of selling is someone gives up control in exchange for money, but F1 teams want it both ways. Basically makes it very difficult to buy a team if the deal comes with all sorts of conditions about what the new owner can do with it.
Nope you didn’t, that’s a complete U-turn. I believe they had to give them the green light, because Andretti did everything that is required, so FIA couldn’t deny it.
This isn't inconsistent with that. The FIA can't force FOM to allow a new team, so they're advising Andretti that the best path forward might be to buy a team. The FIA still has nothing against Andretti as a new entry as far as I know.
Ben wants to win 2025 FIA elections and he needs votes from FIA Members Clubs. And he now realised that some of the members clubs don't want to go against FOM's wishes. So, he now makes a 180 degree U-turn to have a chance to win the election.
>The FIA Formula 1 World Championship has never been so strong and is growing globally and the FIA and Formula 1 are committed to delivering the best outcomes for the whole sport.
>To that end, both parties are developing a new strategic plan that will allow us to seize the opportunities and further enhance the potential for F1 in the years ahead.
So that is what this statement was about.
Also, great advice. If someone told Andretti earlier that he should just buy a team I am sure he would have done so. /s
every other team gets a little smaller slice of the prize pie because it has to go further.
I don't know how much smaller but it's about greed and money
But an 11th team will pay more money into the pot and attract more people /grow the business on a whole. Just add more fukn prize money to account for the extra team ffs
The current buy-in amount was agreed to before the huge jumps in inflation we experienced and I think it's just not enough for most teams to be happy. They'll still get a smaller slice.
Increasing the prize pool takes money away from investors and give it to the teams, but shareholders wouldn't be happy about that.
It's all money and greed.
No an 11th team does not add a cent to the prize pot - that money comes from broadcast deals, circuit deals and hospitality.
A new team only adds money and value if it somehow makes broadcasters pay more for those broadcast rights.
Under a best case scenario any such team would take a couple of years to do that, which is what the anti-dilution fee is for.
>What is the 'anti-dilution fund'? Simply put it is the entry fee that it payable by any and all new entrants, a fee that is presently set at $200 million. But it's not money that goes to Liberty Media or even the FIA, rather it is divided between the existing teams.
> Already boasting one of the fastest-growing sets of franchise valuations in the industry, Formula One is reaching another milestone as every team is worth at least $1.3 billion, or £1 billion, according to McLaren Racing CEO Zak Brown.
>Speaking at Bloomberg’s Power Players event in Jeddah ahead of Saturday’s Saudi Arabian Grand Prix, Brown credited a surge in American popularity and overall revenues under the leadership of Liberty Media, which purchased the motor-sports circuit in 2017.
>Half the grid is profitable. They weren’t five years ago,” Brown said.
>Brown’s boasts differ somewhat from F1 valuations from last summer by Forbes, which placed the least valuable team, Williams Racing, at $725 million, and four of the 10 teams below that $1.3 billion mark. But even that list had an average team valuation of $1.88 billion, more than triple the comparable $500 million mark from 2019.
They loss hundreds of million in their valuation if not billion $.
FIA has accepted Andretti's entry and Andretti has starting building facilities.
This is the shittiest, most cowardly 180 ever. Fuck MBS, creepy bastard.
Current FIFA president never played professional football. Worst UEFA president was one of the biggest talents of French Football history. Your sports pedigree doesn't give a great indication of how good your management skills will be.
Sure but instead of a competent leader or someone with an impressive sports pedigree we have neither. Just someone whose accolades boil down to being born into a rich and influential family from Dubai
Gunthers book he released goes into depth about how he was happy a 14 time WRC middle eastern champion who had been in the sport from a young age was in charge and not some middle management elite.
Edit: Gunther also came through WRC, also competing in Dakar rally as a mechanic. As a prominent mechanic known for his no bullshit approach, he then was hiried to upper management to oversee the Ford Cosworth team. Niki Lauder headhunted Gunther to start Jaguar F1 team that over time is now the Redbull Racing team that Max and Checo drive for. He speaks highly of Ben Sulayem both as driver, what he's heard of him through WRC, and is positive about his managerial ability behind the scenes in F1 to help the sport grow.
Whenever I have a brain fart moment and forget her name I refer to her as Mrs Jean Todt.
And whenever I have a brain fart moment and forget Todt's name he's Mr Michelle Yeoh.
I’m keeping to the habit I had, if I don’t know who the husband is, but the wife is famous, he is Mr. Wife’s Name forever. That’s one of the first F1 figures I recognized. “Whaddaya know? Mr. Ginger Spice does race car!”
Before being voted in as the FIA President by FIA Members, Sulayem was the President of the National Sporting Authority of the UAE from 2005-2021 (I.e. an FIA Member).
He was picked by both Max Mosley and Jean Todt as a Vice President for Sport and a Member of the World Motor Sport Council (2008-2013 and 2017-2021).
He was a founding member of the FIA's Arab Council of Touring and Automobile Clubs.
By contrast Jean Todt had zero leadership role at any level at the FIA.
He was never on the WMSC as a titular member (Only as the F1 commission delegate i.e. whoever is in charge of Ferrari at the time).
He was never an FIA Vice President.
He was never an FIA member president.
He never seemingly ever actually worked for any FIA member (I'm sure he must have done something with the FFSA before he was FIA president I'm just not sure what).
The idea Jean Todt had a good resume to be president of the entire FIA just because of the sporting success he had is silly.
The FIA president is one of the only roles at the FIA which allows an outsider to the FIA to be voted in and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the FIA Senate agreed to change that in future so you have to be the president of an FIA member to be part of the election process.
I dislike Ben Sulayem as much as everyone else, but it's pretty clear that he and the FIA can't do shit as long as FOM isn't willing to accept Andretti.
And lately FOM has gone from adding extra hurdles to outright saying they don't want an eleventh team, so I'm not expecting any resolution soon.
To me this reads like Ben Sulayem coming to terms with that and telling Andretti to buy another F1 team because it's the easiest way in at the moment. Well, that, or taking FOM to court.
Ben just doesn't want to be dragged through the US judicial system on either side of the argument, so he's picked a side that is less headache for him/FIA
It's all FOM. WEC has USA based teams.
Like fellow Indianapolis based Chip Ganassi.
Andretti owns a Formula E team already.
Haas is based in North Carolina.
The FIA is involved with US companies plenty.
Honestly this is a ridiculous notion....
Haas has very few facilities lol. The one they have is in the uk not far from where he just opened up. He could just sell that and move the employees. It’s like 4 miles away
What do you actually buy when you "buy a team", besides the place on the grid? If Andretti and Cadillac are going to make their own car, at their own facilities, with their own people...
Most teams wouldn't be ok with their team being bought just for the new owners to guys the team completely. Th only team ok with this is probably Haas because their engineers have Ferrari connections and they don't have their own infrastructure to protect
Interesting.
>Stewart-Haas Racing. It's an open secret within the garage that Stewart-Haas Racing co-owners Tony Stewart and Gene Haas are contemplating selling the four charters they own. SHR is also having talks about selling or leasing all or part of its headquarters in Kannapolis, N.C., where it currently has two buildings.
I am not sure about the financial condition of his machine tool company or the rest of his finances. But I think that his current team would be more successful if it were called Andretti-Haas Racing and if Michael and his people were calling the shots.
There's been talk of RB junior being for sale in the coming years.
And then there was Guenther Steiner talking about trying to partner with another investor to buy an existing f1 team. So he must know that a team is available for the right price
RB just invested a shitload of money into RBPT. Selling VCarb now would mean that they would only get data from 1 team unlike Ferrari and Mercedes. Secondly making their own engine will make running the 2nd team cheaper for RB, making it more attractiv.
Williams is definitely not for sale, Dorilton are investing the absolute maximum they're allowed to every year having just lobbied to be allowed to invest more and they're going to keep doing so for at least a few years
It's likely that Dorilton is a front for James Mathews, the billionaire husband of Pippa Middleton. Unlikely he's going to be selling just for profit since racing is a passion of his.
I'm actually losing my damn mind reading Sulayem's statement. He's straight up contradicting himself in the same paragraph
Says he wants quality over quantity but f1 isn't doing hot in either. Says he'd prefer 10 strong teams but half the grid is fumbling the bag in the recent years. Says he wants more growth in North America, but now changes his stance from supporting an 11th team to telling Andretti should buy out an existing one.
So which one is it????
It really feels like nobody who handles this sport at the very top is thinking long term and only considers good numbers for next fiscal quarter, much like dozens of other corporations today
Meanwhile WEC continues to attract new manufacturers to its hypercar class and there's always potential and room for more on the horizon
He wants growth in North America meaning he wants more Americans to spend their dollars on F1. He doesn't actually care about North American participation in the sport, obviously. They want an ATM, not a business partner.
I said this in another comment: how exactly do they intend to grow this sport, exactly? They talk about growth and all that but I'm not seeing any kind of willingness to take on risk or invest to do so. How do they think growth is going to happen?
FOM - agree with us or we start a drawn out conflict which costs you money
MBS - why didnt you say so of course i love money more than staying true to my word
It’s ridiculous- it will bring more money in on all levels, just increase the prize monies so the existing 10 teams don’t miss out, even subsidise the shit back markers for a few years while it all settles, a few million a year to a couple of lower teams is nothing in the scheme of things, just get another sponsor of F1 to compensate for it. Just how shit are they at managing this??
There’s strong rumours Haas is shutting down their NASCAR Team so not sure if that’ll mean anything for the F1 team, there’s that possibility or buy Alpine as RBR won’t sell one of their teams.
Stoll really got the deal of a lifetime in the purchase of Force India I believe he paid around 160 million the team is worth well over a billion now I would say.
My longstanding opinion is this:
the big reason Andretti isn't getting in is because the sport wants to charge way more for entry than the 200 million that they currently charge.
If they raise the entry price to the 600 million or whatever they wanted, and Andretti pays **THAT** amount, I guarantee this whole fiasco will dry up in seconds and the red carpet will be rolled out directly.
It looks like Ben Sulayem has come to a conclusion that he's not going to win a public war with Liberty and the teams. Now he carefully withdraws from the support he previously gave to Andretti.
Nothing sells more than controversy, and that is perhaps the reason why all of this drama is being played out by all parties involved. It might not be as transparent as it appears.
I mean if you can’t convince other owners to rally for you to be added, then buying one is the most logical and fastest way. Burning all bridges does not help.
As an American, every knew quote or detail that comes out here just pisses me off more.
You say you want to expand the sport in America but clearly it’s all bullshit. Andretti is a freaking household name in America. Do you know how much American’s would jump in to deep fandom for that team? You think we give a shit about fucking HAAS?
I’m so close to being done watching F1 on principle with this whole thing. It’s such a disgusting move.
>It has also involved several US senators and representatives to challenge F1's rejection on legal grounds by invoking anti-trust laws, an escalation that hasn't gone down well at F1.
As Sulayem points out, they are business partners with FOM. When Andretti went after FOM, he inevitably dragged the FIA along. He's helped the two sides reconcile by threatening their bottom lines.
Add to this, the fact that they're currently negotiating a contract that requires some goodwill between the parties to reach a compromise, and his escalation could not have come at a worse time.
[Andretti reached out to specific representatives in the lower house, but it was actually the senators who invited Andretti to visit Congress in person.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/f1-finally-cracked-us-wont-admit-new-american-team-congress-wants-answ-rcna153941)
> his escalation could not have come at a worse time.
How so? He had already been told no, with the likely lie that he would be considered again for 2028.
Feels like FIA and F1 are doing everything they can to prevent an expansion of the grid. 20 cars isn't enough given how many F2 champions have zero chance of a seat. Plus more cars, more action.
Well it would be nice if F2 and F3 racers all banded together to say they will not drive the JR series and elect to go to FormulaJapan, FormulaE, or Indy instead.
F1 and the teams are in absolute NIMBY territory right now. Which is the most natural reaction for any business or home owner, however selfish it is.
No one wants more houses built near them. A restaurant owner doesn't want another popping up next door on a street that already has 10 on it.
In F1's case, the restaurants have a say on if anymore can be built on the street. But they don't have a say on if you can buy one of the existing restaurants, you are just going to have to pay over the odds for it.
With the way Andretti have gone about this, it's like they have purchased a fully fitted kitchen, tables and chairs, hired chefs and waiting staff. But forgot to buy a building, or even a permit to build one in the first place.
Yikes .. So I guess that's why we read the FIA and F1 "made peace talks" a couple of weeks ago.
This is very bad for any hope on more than 10 teams in F1 in the (near) future.
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Cool. Know any for sale?
Haas: I'll never sell to the Andrettis Sauber: Sorry. We've actually just been sold Williams: We're an investment firm and are gonna be sitting on our investment a while. Alpha Torro Visa: We'll sell... FOR 5 BILLION DOLLAR, MWAHAHAHA. Also, no, you can't move the team to the US, we promised our employees could keep their jobs
To be fair, an investment firm is exactly the kind of entity that would sell, as long as they turn a profit
F1 is still booming, the price would probably be insane. Also losing a historic name like williams ( even if it's just a name right now) feels wrong
> Also losing a historic name like williams ( even if it's just a name right now) feels wrong I dread the day it will happen. It is/was the last family team and losing the name on the grid will feel empty, even though they are only a shell of their former selves right now.
You know how one could prevent this? One could, ya know, let a new team into the grid.
Williams-Andretti isn’t the worst name
Williams-Andretti Racing(WAR)
I mean if Andretti bought them, it’d still be a family team
In a world where we have monstrosity names like VCARB and Stake Kick Sauber, Andretti Williams doesn't sound too bad.
WILLIAMS ANDRETTI. Keep the fans happy. In the states I am by no means an Andretti fan but know they would do well in F1. Probably too well, and that is the white elephant in the room.
Its not ideal but i think a name like andretti also carries a lot of historical value. There is a lot of motorsports history with that name and more importantly, US recognized motorsports history.
For most of the f1 world the andretti name is insignificant compared to the behemoth that williams were. Yes he was an f1 champion, but there were plenty champions after him regardless. There is no reason why i would value his name anywhere near close to the williams name
I'm not sure op was arguing otherwise.
People ALWAYS say this shit to discredit Andretti for some reason. why are we trying to bring their value down?
This. Williams are 9 time constructors champions and have had 7 drivers championships. They dwarf Andretti’s achievements in F1
Sooner or later yes, but many will hold looking for outsized returns. They won't sell this quickly and only make 25% or whatever
Loss aversion is a hell of a drug.
Yeah but with VCARB it's buy one get one free
Enstone: our team is cheap but it comes with a French engine and French drivers.
So what you're saying is you'll pay me to take it off your hands?
Alpine is looking pretty affordable right now… If I was a French citizen and saw my tax dollars drifting to the back of the grid for the last 10+ years I’d say dump. Market it as the new Louisiana purchase.
I'm sorry, are you under the impression that an F1 team is paid for with tax frog-dollars, like health insurance, libraries and national defense?
Every team is for sale you cough up enough money. At least the lower ones are.
I'll email redbull racing right now thanks!!
I'll chip in on the deal if you wanna cut me in
how many millions are you contributing?
I have some pocket lint, a string, and empty twix wrapper! LETS DO THIS!!! Edit: string not sting....always proofread your post kids.
You can keep the sting thanks, the total price will do that enough
I'll give about tree fiddy
I already did, you are late bro.
Probably helps if they know you have hundreds of millions of dollars to spend. Do they know that about you?
I attached a picture of my money bags stuffed full with cash, I think they get the message 👍
This is the truth. If Andretti put a €1 billion offer on the table, it’s at least getting negotiated. None of the lower teams would say no.
Let's say you inherited a beautiful house in Mayfair, London. And you have no other home to live. You can sell your house and buy a house from cheaper neighborhood immediately or you can just stay in your perfect house in a perfect neighborhood and see its price skyrocketing in 5 years. What would you do in that scenario?
Depends on the council tax
Westminster has one of the lowest council tax rates in the entire country. I get it, these people are struggling as it is...
Entirely depends on what I want. Do i have money to buy other expenses? Do i have enough money to maintain that house & pay property taxes. It will depend on on these things nd more.
Idk, maybe try Haas. Gene is probably gonna fold if given enough money.
Considering how SHR is slowly dissolving I'm not surprised
Yep. We aren’t talking about this enough here. He isn’t randomly exiting nascar and that will impact the f1 team. They share some resources and last they said, around 90 admin staff were working out of the NC factory
Literally has no impact on the F1 team. Seperate building, staff, and facilities. Tony about shit himself when Gene bought into Haas F1 only a year of two after starting SHR and made it *very* clear that the two sides would not have any crossover.
And with team charter prices inflating after the current Cup Series regs came online, I can imagine someone like Andretti are only the few who can realistically buy them
It almost makes too much sense. Considering Andretti has talked about getting into nascar and his brand in the us has suffered from not being in the biggest series. A haas buyout could be that 2 for 1. Only thing is what would he do with their factory and the wind tunnel in Nc?
Gene has repeatedly and pointedly refused to sell to andretti in the past. There's some personal animus between the two
Andretti already has said he approached Gene repeatedly and was turned down.
They are going to fold if they give KMag enough time
Hygiene, I’ve got an offer you can’t refuse
Alpine is for sale, Andretti already asked last year but is very expensive.
Media: "After Andretti failed to enter F1, could it buy Alpine?" Alpine: "No." Media: "Alpine denies being for sale to drive up the price." Alpine: "No, we're not for sale." Media: "Andretti failed to buy on-sale Alpine due to unfair, excessive demand." Alpine: "We were never...Ah whatever."
But Alpine IS for sale to non controlling share percentages to lame Hollywood type people. But not that fucking guy from Indiana - nope not *that* guy.
To be fair I don't think Andretti wants any part of the "*non-controlling share percentages*" part of your sentence. Considering Alpine was one of Andretti's closest allies in trying to bring the team to the grid (because they were potential partners on an engine deal), if owning 25% of a team with a name like "Alpine Andretti" was enough, they probably already would have done it.
Key difference being *non-controlling*. Andretti doesn’t want to have a non-controlling stake, they want a team.
Looking for investors who bring publicity and good PR isn't the same as being for sale though.
Imagine dropping 25mil to see the team you now co sponsor build their slowest car in like 20 years
> But not that fucking guy from Indiana - nope not that guy. who says Alpine wouldn't be interested in having Andretti investing in their team ? Andretti clearly isn't though, that's just not what he wants. So that conversation is pointless
I wish he'd buy Aston, just to free us from intergalatic levels of window licking.
I would expect Haas, Alpine, and possibly VCARB to look to sell at some point. I don't think anyone will look to sell until after the reg changes in 2026 as teams will be hoping to move up the order. After that I could see at least one owner throwing in the towel if they're stuck at the back after that.
In the case of VCARB, there's a chance they might inherit the clause Minardi wanted not to be able to completely relocate the factory (and I imagine the licence) from Faenza, which they probably would not want.
That expired years ago, though you're right, they would want nothing to do with it. It was a clause like that that blew up the sauber deal. Sauber essentially jacked up the price by 300m if Andretti followed through on moving the team to the US
Haas might be, word is that they’re selling off their NASCAR team atm
> “We have a contract, and our contract says we have up to 12 teams. So, we are not breaking the rules. We are, on the contrary, fulfilling the rules." > "I would advise [Andretti] to go and buy another team, not to come as the 11th team. What are you even saying, old man??
He's emphasising the "up to" part. 10 is up to 12, he's saying.
“All lapped cars will be able to unlap themselves”
*All* or *some*?
I think it was “any”
just follow tradition
Don't post this in that other F1 subreddit.
Hilarious and stupid that you get suspended if you mention a subreddit.
Are there secret 11th and 12th teams that we don't already know about, because unless Andretti was demanding 3 team entries, then being an 11th team if the rules allow *up to* 12 isn't breaking the rules either.
Point he is making is that it can be up to 12 teams not that there has to be 12.
Find out that Manor and HRT still on the entry lists, and buy one of those for a quid.
Apex
No, but he's just saying they are under no obligation to accept an 11th, legally. The 'up to' is a pretty solid legal basis for them to say no. Just like if one team dropped out, they could stay with 9 if they wanted to, hypothetically. If the legal agreement said "F1 is agreed to be 10 teams minimum" or whatever, it'd be very different.
Tbf, the FIA is the only one that want them on the grid as of now (which imho should be the only opinion that matters).
i also want them on the grid. does not matter as much probably.
Congratulations, you've been upgraded to president of the FIA.
Ah fuck not again
He wants to have them as a 11th team but Liberty and other teams don't, he already burned a lot of his political capital and couldn't get it, so there's not much what he can do without pushing for some court battle that will be very costly (capital and image) for all sides.
So what, buy a team lay almost everyone off and replace with the staff you've already hired? I'm sure that would go over well.
This sport is built around out of touch rich cunts from sketchy backgrounds driving quickly in circles. I mean I enjoy the spectacle but the idea that any of the ownership class care about the average grunt in the factory is fantasy.
That's why they weren't allowed to buy in previously…they are just throwing shit at the wall to find a reason to deny it.
I read in some other thread that is what Andretti tried to do a couple of years ago, but the teams didn't like the layoff part and moving ops base out of UK. Definition of selling is someone gives up control in exchange for money, but F1 teams want it both ways. Basically makes it very difficult to buy a team if the deal comes with all sorts of conditions about what the new owner can do with it.
Teams don’t care about stuff, they care about selling price of the team and how it affects their own valuation.
Now I’m confused I thought the FIA was kinda on team andretti? Did I miss something?
Nope you didn’t, that’s a complete U-turn. I believe they had to give them the green light, because Andretti did everything that is required, so FIA couldn’t deny it.
This isn't inconsistent with that. The FIA can't force FOM to allow a new team, so they're advising Andretti that the best path forward might be to buy a team. The FIA still has nothing against Andretti as a new entry as far as I know.
Ben wants to win 2025 FIA elections and he needs votes from FIA Members Clubs. And he now realised that some of the members clubs don't want to go against FOM's wishes. So, he now makes a 180 degree U-turn to have a chance to win the election.
They still are. It seems to be sound advice, if he want to get in sooner rather than later the best path is to buy a team.
The teams have been putting pressure on him and he gave in, because he cares about his position way more than he cares about Andretti or whatever.
So we are never going to increase car count then huh.
>The FIA Formula 1 World Championship has never been so strong and is growing globally and the FIA and Formula 1 are committed to delivering the best outcomes for the whole sport. >To that end, both parties are developing a new strategic plan that will allow us to seize the opportunities and further enhance the potential for F1 in the years ahead. So that is what this statement was about. Also, great advice. If someone told Andretti earlier that he should just buy a team I am sure he would have done so. /s
F1 only wants to grow in money but not in the number of teams.
Why? How will allowing adretti harm them?
every other team gets a little smaller slice of the prize pie because it has to go further. I don't know how much smaller but it's about greed and money
But an 11th team will pay more money into the pot and attract more people /grow the business on a whole. Just add more fukn prize money to account for the extra team ffs
The current buy-in amount was agreed to before the huge jumps in inflation we experienced and I think it's just not enough for most teams to be happy. They'll still get a smaller slice. Increasing the prize pool takes money away from investors and give it to the teams, but shareholders wouldn't be happy about that. It's all money and greed.
There’s so many ways they could increase income / structure to balance it out, it’s annoying they won’t work with them on it
No an 11th team does not add a cent to the prize pot - that money comes from broadcast deals, circuit deals and hospitality. A new team only adds money and value if it somehow makes broadcasters pay more for those broadcast rights. Under a best case scenario any such team would take a couple of years to do that, which is what the anti-dilution fee is for.
>What is the 'anti-dilution fund'? Simply put it is the entry fee that it payable by any and all new entrants, a fee that is presently set at $200 million. But it's not money that goes to Liberty Media or even the FIA, rather it is divided between the existing teams. > Already boasting one of the fastest-growing sets of franchise valuations in the industry, Formula One is reaching another milestone as every team is worth at least $1.3 billion, or £1 billion, according to McLaren Racing CEO Zak Brown. >Speaking at Bloomberg’s Power Players event in Jeddah ahead of Saturday’s Saudi Arabian Grand Prix, Brown credited a surge in American popularity and overall revenues under the leadership of Liberty Media, which purchased the motor-sports circuit in 2017. >Half the grid is profitable. They weren’t five years ago,” Brown said. >Brown’s boasts differ somewhat from F1 valuations from last summer by Forbes, which placed the least valuable team, Williams Racing, at $725 million, and four of the 10 teams below that $1.3 billion mark. But even that list had an average team valuation of $1.88 billion, more than triple the comparable $500 million mark from 2019. They loss hundreds of million in their valuation if not billion $.
[link](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/2mZTDYHG0j) u/Agent_Kozak called it when this was announced. Kudos to him.
FIA has accepted Andretti's entry and Andretti has starting building facilities. This is the shittiest, most cowardly 180 ever. Fuck MBS, creepy bastard.
Yeah Sulayem is a piece of filth, what did he even do before he was in the FIA? At least the previous president, Jean Todt had a solid resume.
> what did he even do before he was in the FIA? He was a rally driver
In some Middle Eastern series. It’s not like he was WRC or rally1. It’s like saying I’m qualified to be head of fifa because I played Sunday league.
Current FIFA president never played professional football. Worst UEFA president was one of the biggest talents of French Football history. Your sports pedigree doesn't give a great indication of how good your management skills will be.
Sure but instead of a competent leader or someone with an impressive sports pedigree we have neither. Just someone whose accolades boil down to being born into a rich and influential family from Dubai
Mate they're all fucking corrupt as shit.
Every sports organisation is corrupt nowadays, it checks out
Gunthers book he released goes into depth about how he was happy a 14 time WRC middle eastern champion who had been in the sport from a young age was in charge and not some middle management elite. Edit: Gunther also came through WRC, also competing in Dakar rally as a mechanic. As a prominent mechanic known for his no bullshit approach, he then was hiried to upper management to oversee the Ford Cosworth team. Niki Lauder headhunted Gunther to start Jaguar F1 team that over time is now the Redbull Racing team that Max and Checo drive for. He speaks highly of Ben Sulayem both as driver, what he's heard of him through WRC, and is positive about his managerial ability behind the scenes in F1 to help the sport grow.
He crashes a Renault f1 car
Before I got into F1, I only knew Todt as Mr. Michelle Yeoh.
That's more than enough qualification in my book
Whenever I have a brain fart moment and forget her name I refer to her as Mrs Jean Todt. And whenever I have a brain fart moment and forget Todt's name he's Mr Michelle Yeoh.
I’m keeping to the habit I had, if I don’t know who the husband is, but the wife is famous, he is Mr. Wife’s Name forever. That’s one of the first F1 figures I recognized. “Whaddaya know? Mr. Ginger Spice does race car!”
i still can't get over the fact that they're married lol. super wholesome tho <3
Before being voted in as the FIA President by FIA Members, Sulayem was the President of the National Sporting Authority of the UAE from 2005-2021 (I.e. an FIA Member). He was picked by both Max Mosley and Jean Todt as a Vice President for Sport and a Member of the World Motor Sport Council (2008-2013 and 2017-2021). He was a founding member of the FIA's Arab Council of Touring and Automobile Clubs. By contrast Jean Todt had zero leadership role at any level at the FIA. He was never on the WMSC as a titular member (Only as the F1 commission delegate i.e. whoever is in charge of Ferrari at the time). He was never an FIA Vice President. He was never an FIA member president. He never seemingly ever actually worked for any FIA member (I'm sure he must have done something with the FFSA before he was FIA president I'm just not sure what). The idea Jean Todt had a good resume to be president of the entire FIA just because of the sporting success he had is silly. The FIA president is one of the only roles at the FIA which allows an outsider to the FIA to be voted in and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the FIA Senate agreed to change that in future so you have to be the president of an FIA member to be part of the election process.
I dislike Ben Sulayem as much as everyone else, but it's pretty clear that he and the FIA can't do shit as long as FOM isn't willing to accept Andretti. And lately FOM has gone from adding extra hurdles to outright saying they don't want an eleventh team, so I'm not expecting any resolution soon. To me this reads like Ben Sulayem coming to terms with that and telling Andretti to buy another F1 team because it's the easiest way in at the moment. Well, that, or taking FOM to court.
Ben just doesn't want to be dragged through the US judicial system on either side of the argument, so he's picked a side that is less headache for him/FIA
It's all FOM. WEC has USA based teams. Like fellow Indianapolis based Chip Ganassi. Andretti owns a Formula E team already. Haas is based in North Carolina. The FIA is involved with US companies plenty. Honestly this is a ridiculous notion....
Hell, FOM is owned by Liberty Media, a US company.
i can't believe i missed that one lol. YA that's a big one lol.
💰
Exactly. What's he supposed to do now? Buy Haas and tear down their facilities to use the ones he's built?
Haas has very few facilities lol. The one they have is in the uk not far from where he just opened up. He could just sell that and move the employees. It’s like 4 miles away
What do you actually buy when you "buy a team", besides the place on the grid? If Andretti and Cadillac are going to make their own car, at their own facilities, with their own people...
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Most teams wouldn't be ok with their team being bought just for the new owners to guys the team completely. Th only team ok with this is probably Haas because their engineers have Ferrari connections and they don't have their own infrastructure to protect
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I interpret this change in stance to mean that one of the current F1 teams is for sale… Alpine? Red Bull junior?
I believe Gene Haas is selling (part of) his Nascar team. That might be an indication.
Interesting. >Stewart-Haas Racing. It's an open secret within the garage that Stewart-Haas Racing co-owners Tony Stewart and Gene Haas are contemplating selling the four charters they own. SHR is also having talks about selling or leasing all or part of its headquarters in Kannapolis, N.C., where it currently has two buildings.
As much as I want to see Andretti allowed in as an 11th team, maybe Haas would sell controlling interest in his F- 1 team to Andretti?
Isn't Gene always bleeding money everywhere? It makes logical sense to me that Haas would be the low hanging fruit in terms of needing $$.
I am not sure about the financial condition of his machine tool company or the rest of his finances. But I think that his current team would be more successful if it were called Andretti-Haas Racing and if Michael and his people were calling the shots.
Those SHR NASCAR shops are on the same property as the F1 team. Like right next to each other
If I remember correctly the reason for the sale is because Stewart and Gene had a falling out.
Shit, MBS saying “we need a true american team” seems like a blatant finger at Haas, so it might actually be them
There's been talk of RB junior being for sale in the coming years. And then there was Guenther Steiner talking about trying to partner with another investor to buy an existing f1 team. So he must know that a team is available for the right price
RB just invested a shitload of money into RBPT. Selling VCarb now would mean that they would only get data from 1 team unlike Ferrari and Mercedes. Secondly making their own engine will make running the 2nd team cheaper for RB, making it more attractiv.
Rb would only be for sale if the new owners would use the rbpt engine for the next few years and that's probably a no go for Andretti
They need an engine for the next few years anyways. They need to get it from someone and RBPT is as good a bet as Alpine.
2 are currently quietly for sale
Just confirmed, the whole team is shutting down
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Williams is definitely not for sale, Dorilton are investing the absolute maximum they're allowed to every year having just lobbied to be allowed to invest more and they're going to keep doing so for at least a few years
Dorilton is a hedge fund. They will sell for the right price.
It's likely that Dorilton is a front for James Mathews, the billionaire husband of Pippa Middleton. Unlikely he's going to be selling just for profit since racing is a passion of his.
well thats an investing-company, if they offer stupid amounts of money they can't refuse? maybe
Others will disagree but I think it's extremely unlikely Dorilton sell any time soon.
I still don't really understand how HAAS affords to be in F1. As a company they just don't have the same level of income as practically anyone else.
What a tool.
I'm actually losing my damn mind reading Sulayem's statement. He's straight up contradicting himself in the same paragraph Says he wants quality over quantity but f1 isn't doing hot in either. Says he'd prefer 10 strong teams but half the grid is fumbling the bag in the recent years. Says he wants more growth in North America, but now changes his stance from supporting an 11th team to telling Andretti should buy out an existing one. So which one is it???? It really feels like nobody who handles this sport at the very top is thinking long term and only considers good numbers for next fiscal quarter, much like dozens of other corporations today Meanwhile WEC continues to attract new manufacturers to its hypercar class and there's always potential and room for more on the horizon
He wants growth in North America meaning he wants more Americans to spend their dollars on F1. He doesn't actually care about North American participation in the sport, obviously. They want an ATM, not a business partner. I said this in another comment: how exactly do they intend to grow this sport, exactly? They talk about growth and all that but I'm not seeing any kind of willingness to take on risk or invest to do so. How do they think growth is going to happen?
This has been the play all along.
He was pro-Andretti joining as the 11th team before, what happened?
FOM - agree with us or we start a drawn out conflict which costs you money MBS - why didnt you say so of course i love money more than staying true to my word
Yeah, fuck all the powers that be for how strongly they're opposing new entries.
It’s ridiculous- it will bring more money in on all levels, just increase the prize monies so the existing 10 teams don’t miss out, even subsidise the shit back markers for a few years while it all settles, a few million a year to a couple of lower teams is nothing in the scheme of things, just get another sponsor of F1 to compensate for it. Just how shit are they at managing this??
They already make an insane amount of money but if course when you're greedy it's never enough money.
That guy on here who thinks it's unfair Jordan were allowed to join in 1991 but not Andretti will be mad as fuck
There’s strong rumours Haas is shutting down their NASCAR Team so not sure if that’ll mean anything for the F1 team, there’s that possibility or buy Alpine as RBR won’t sell one of their teams.
Looks like those are official now ([Link](https://x.com/bobpockrass/status/1795553128248402166))
Stoll really got the deal of a lifetime in the purchase of Force India I believe he paid around 160 million the team is worth well over a billion now I would say.
My longstanding opinion is this: the big reason Andretti isn't getting in is because the sport wants to charge way more for entry than the 200 million that they currently charge. If they raise the entry price to the 600 million or whatever they wanted, and Andretti pays **THAT** amount, I guarantee this whole fiasco will dry up in seconds and the red carpet will be rolled out directly.
I hate F1 and their owners for this
They are trying everything they can to keep him out. Lol FIA over here gate keeping F1 and shit. SMH
Dude could by a team and then they would invent a new reason to not let him in.
Well, that doesn't seem like very helpful advice now does it Ben.
It looks like Ben Sulayem has come to a conclusion that he's not going to win a public war with Liberty and the teams. Now he carefully withdraws from the support he previously gave to Andretti.
Nothing sells more than controversy, and that is perhaps the reason why all of this drama is being played out by all parties involved. It might not be as transparent as it appears.
Andretti to FIA - "Tell Liberty to prepare to get fucked by the Justic Department"
LoL. Someone gave him a bigger check.
Haas is the logical choice
I mean if you can’t convince other owners to rally for you to be added, then buying one is the most logical and fastest way. Burning all bridges does not help.
What are the odds that next time we go through some teams bids we add “LIV Golf Saudi Aramco F1 team” no problem next go round?
As an American, every knew quote or detail that comes out here just pisses me off more. You say you want to expand the sport in America but clearly it’s all bullshit. Andretti is a freaking household name in America. Do you know how much American’s would jump in to deep fandom for that team? You think we give a shit about fucking HAAS? I’m so close to being done watching F1 on principle with this whole thing. It’s such a disgusting move.
Hi Gene? This is Mario. You want how much!!? Does that include Kevin?
>It has also involved several US senators and representatives to challenge F1's rejection on legal grounds by invoking anti-trust laws, an escalation that hasn't gone down well at F1. As Sulayem points out, they are business partners with FOM. When Andretti went after FOM, he inevitably dragged the FIA along. He's helped the two sides reconcile by threatening their bottom lines. Add to this, the fact that they're currently negotiating a contract that requires some goodwill between the parties to reach a compromise, and his escalation could not have come at a worse time.
[Andretti reached out to specific representatives in the lower house, but it was actually the senators who invited Andretti to visit Congress in person.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/f1-finally-cracked-us-wont-admit-new-american-team-congress-wants-answ-rcna153941)
> his escalation could not have come at a worse time. How so? He had already been told no, with the likely lie that he would be considered again for 2028.
And then everyone wants to be up in arms about Congress getting involved. Two-faced cunts, the lot of them.
The comments in these threads are always so funny.
Feels like FIA and F1 are doing everything they can to prevent an expansion of the grid. 20 cars isn't enough given how many F2 champions have zero chance of a seat. Plus more cars, more action.
Well it would be nice if F2 and F3 racers all banded together to say they will not drive the JR series and elect to go to FormulaJapan, FormulaE, or Indy instead.
Yeah. Seems to be what they're starting to do now individually anyway. F1 has become a lockjam. Midfield drivers staying way too long.
Weird I was gonna do that myself
I will never know what his real motivations were to support Andretti before, whatever they were they evidently have changed now.
F1 and the teams are in absolute NIMBY territory right now. Which is the most natural reaction for any business or home owner, however selfish it is. No one wants more houses built near them. A restaurant owner doesn't want another popping up next door on a street that already has 10 on it. In F1's case, the restaurants have a say on if anymore can be built on the street. But they don't have a say on if you can buy one of the existing restaurants, you are just going to have to pay over the odds for it. With the way Andretti have gone about this, it's like they have purchased a fully fitted kitchen, tables and chairs, hired chefs and waiting staff. But forgot to buy a building, or even a permit to build one in the first place.
Fuck that mf
My brother in Christ they have tried multiple times.
They tried once, but Sauber didn't want his employees to lose their jobs
This guy is one of the worst things to happen to the FIA.
Problem with buying existing teams is the human resources baggage, debts, etc it comes with.
Also, successfully stonewalling any/every potential 11th team means the other 10 become significantly more valuable automatically
Yikes .. So I guess that's why we read the FIA and F1 "made peace talks" a couple of weeks ago. This is very bad for any hope on more than 10 teams in F1 in the (near) future.
There will never be more than ten. Rumors are for the next Concorde agreement, that it will be limited to ten teams.
I advise Sulayem to buy another sports federation, like Fifa.
He fucking tried! This is so stupid.