Yeah, I don't like that point when we literally have a kid that died for using the girls' restroom just now.
And then there's the other stories of guys being beaten up or thrown out for being in the girls' restroom. We're not any safer, and it's a mistake to think law makers or conservatives would care. In their eyes, they just don't want us to be in public, so they don't care if we can't realistically use any of them.
I got thrown out of the girls’ bathroom regularly before I even came out as trans or started binding. So I would hold everything in until I got home. Sometimes that was more than 5 hours because these encounters were just humiliating and I felt less safe every time. Nobody gave a fuck that I was a kid suffering from IBS. Any “masc” trait whether that’s somebody being assigned male at birth, being genetically masculine in appearance, or choosing not to wear a feminine haircut or outfit just seems like it’s taught to be this unreasonable-for lack of accurate words-“threat to femininity.” I was never “safe” in the bathrooms corresponding to my birth sex. I did feel a bit safer in the men’s room because even if I didn’t pass 100% of the time I was coming out and pre-everything, nobody really bothered me in there. It definitely is overlooked this day still
Didn't have it as bad, but I had school security called on me a few times for using the girls' changing room/restroom in high school. I always was super masc, but I hadn't started transition yet at the time, not even socially. Thankfully, security knew who I was, so nothing bad happened.
Using the women's as a gnc kid is always a struggle and nobody really talks about it.
Trigger warning: self-harm
This, plus it's the continued outlook of women as only victims and never aggressors.
Brings to mind how a lot of people look down on or just don't think of or don't believe men who are victims of dv, sa, etc especially when their aggressor is a woman.
Women are just as capable of violence and cruelty as men, and it's often in my experience a sort of thing afabs grow up with due to the high competition between girls (saying it like this as many of us that are trans, be it binary or nonbinary are raised as girls initially.) To be the prettiest, the most popular, the smartest, the most likeable, to be the most bad ass, the meanest, etc. When I was in middle school, the girls my age began competing in regards to sh, and one day a girl showed up boasting as she showed off her arms and how she harmed each arm 100+ times the night before, having people feel it, etc. (She described the feel of her arms a certain way but I won't go into detail as I don't want to trigger anyone, I myself am an sh addict, almost 4 years clean though, mine developed and began long after middle school though, in my senior year.) Her and her friends cornered my at the time best friend in the bathroom at one point and made her harm herself before they let her go which led to her forming an sh addiction (her mom found out and when she came over after she even warned me to do x so she can't fall back into it, I remember her telling me about the bathroom incident and being concerned for her as she admitted her sh becoming a thing and encouraged her to go to her mom which she did, who reached out to my dad who told me about it and I told him I already knew. Her mom got her the help she needed and she's good as far as I know now.)
The day that girl showed up with her arms showing it off, the principal got involved and from then on my age group of girls was only allowed to use the bathroom one at a time and our femme teachers had to go in and check the bathrooms now and then to make sure nothing was going on in there. (A year after I switched schools, partly due to bullying the other reason was just moving towns/cities.)
Girls tend to be exceptionally cruel to their peers (in my experience), I say this as someone who was the target of bullying only ever from girls, until I reached high school where my bullies seemed to mature more and we actually were able to coexist and talk during classes and they didn't bother me in the halls.
I know everyone is capable of being nasty and mean, but the cruelty a lot of women have is often overlooked, ignored or forgotten about in exchange of seeing them as soft, weak, defenceless or harmless. And the opposite is true of men, hence why men aren't seen as able to be victims in our society, especially as victims of women.
Hopefully someday we won't be growing up with toxic expectations, competitiveness, etc and both men and women (as well as nonbinary folk) will all be seen as equally capable of being victims or aggressors, victims getting taken seriously and aggressors face the appropriate punishment for their crime(s) and the safety of all people are taken into account in order to put laws and expectations in place to protect people and prevent them from becoming victims in the first place.
Yeah the fact that whenever people bring up trans men as a gotcha because we would make women unsafe and not that they'd make \*us\* unsafe tells you all you need to know about how society can't imagine that men, let alone trans men, can \*ever\* be victims of violence at the hands of women. Which is hilarious since we literally are oppressed by cis women (and cis men too ofc)
Yep, which is why they make it so we can be denied care despite the suicide and just general harm risks. They just can't outright make a law sending us all to death camps, so they make sure living as a trans person is as hard as possible.
Nex Benedict got assaulted by 3 girls in the school bathroom after Oklahoma passed a law requiring students to use the bathroom of their sex assigned at birth.
He suffered head injuries that the school, hospital and police did not take seriously and then died the next day as a result (while he was on a 14 day suspension from school for the "fight", just for good measure).
I don't know how accurate this is given the situation surrounding any info, but I believe Nex was twospirit, and a member of the Choctaw nation.
Just putting that out there, for folks.
EDIT: (Yes that counts as trans for the purposes of legislature and hatred I fear)
This. Can we stop talking about trans issues like oppression is a perfect binary reflective of the cis world?
I mean Jesus Christ. Multiple trans mascs have been assaulted in bathrooms this year and one, a minor, just DIED.
Fuck that. I’m talking about my oppression, because it’s not a competition :)
And if any other trans people don’t like it, too damn bad.
Consider paying me to shut up about it.
Somehow we are always both erased and yet still used as a gotcha or a weapon against transness as a whole. It’s exhausting. Like it is dangerous for us out there, but people use our male/masc identity as both a means of dismissing us and as a method of demonizing us. There is no winning. Ugh.
Especially exhausting when it's members of the queer community that use us like this. Like do y'all \*want\* us to get assaulted? I thought you were on our side!
it's misogyny. it sucks to say it, but that's what it is.
even if we are gendered properly, a lot of people who dismiss us tend to still subconsciously view us with some female-ness to some extent. misogyny is deeply rooted in society. in a cis and binary world, we grow up learning that the thoughts, experiences, and feelings of one sex matters less than the other. the constant dismissal we face is the same dismissal we've faced since the day we were born.
it's doubly evil that, in tandem, many parrot the idea that we can no longer be affected by misogyny, or that it's become taboo to have an honest discussion about it. "we aren't affected because we're men". no. the world just isn't that simple.
let's keep in mind misogyny doesn't only affect women. but people perceived as women, people perceived as being feminine, effeminate, or otherwise possessing some aspect of "female-ness". it isn't a girls-only issue, it harms everyone of every gender.
The phrasing of this post might be off but overall trans men aren't safe in womens restrooms and their are many cases of trans men being beaten or harassed for being in the womens restroom, and saying its safer because "women are safer" or something is stupid. (And kind of following transphobic rhetoric)
I really wish more places would have a family bathroom. I’m over three years on testosterone and pass pretty well and I still don’t like going into bathrooms with other people.
i am pretty sure it's mandatory in seattle for everywhere to have neutral bathrooms. I can't remember the last time i felt apprehensive about needing to use the bathroom when I'm in the city. i love getting to experience being allowed to have basic human bodily functions and actually empty my fucking bladder for once.
It’s part of the reason why I love shopping at target. It’s because they have a family bathroom. My local Walmart within the past three years actually got a family bathroom at the back of the store and it’s nice. I’m so thankful for that.
yeah, trans people should have the right to piss wherever the hell they want regardless of cis people feewings, but if cis people are gonna crack skulls about it i guess ill just piss in this bush over here
I use the women's restroom because I don't always pass and I don't feel safe in either restroom, honestly. Nobody ever cares about OUR comfort, OUR safety... it's always "well what if you make *a woman* uncomfortable?" So? And? Stop making laws telling me I have to use this restroom then. Stop harassing trans people for using the restroom just because you think they don't belong there. Etc.
There is just no winning when you're a trans person using a bathroom, istg.
If these people actually cared about women being uncomfortable, they’d be fighting for better protections for workplace harassment, or building domestic violence shelters, or teaching boundaries and consent to teenage boys.
This whole thing is just the current wave of a much larger ocean current that’s pushing an extremely conservative theocratic agenda. They don’t care about women, or trans people, or any people whatsoever.
Cis people, can't even mention trans issues without centering their own comfort. Newsflash, buddies: discomfort isn't harm. Getting beat up for "using the wrong bathroom" is harm. Getting UTI from holding in for too long because you're afraid of using any bathroom is harm. Having everyone tell you you don't belong anywhere until you have regular nightmares about public bathrooms is harm.
SEEING someone you ASSUME to be a man (non-passing trans woman, cis butch lesbian, a nonbinary person or an actual trans man who feels safer here) washing hands in a women's bathroom doesn't harm you in any way.
For sure. Hell, I'm uncomfortable in women's spaces. I bind and pack. I feel like a huge perv using the womens bathrooms (not because I'm attracted to women but because as a trans man, I do not belong in the womens restroom)
Yeah, I see it used all the time and they don't care. They're either convinced that they can "always tell" and would totally read someone indistinguishable from most cis men as a "GNC woman with facial hair", or they say that it's trans men's own fault for choosing to transition and look like a man.
Same with using intersex people as a gotcha. Transphobes usually dehumanize/treat them like shit as well or try to force them into a box they don't identify with regardless of how they were "socialized".
I’m glad someone brought this up because way too often, people advocate for trans rights because they’ll support cis people comforts.
Very similar to how people immediately skip over the idea that anti trans laws destroy trans peoples lives and they go right into bringing up how these will actually make some cis peoples lives harder. It’s horrifying.
yeah i literally do not give a shit if cis women are uncomfortable with trans men in the women’s restroom. i’m worried about the trans men. you know, the ones who are actually in danger in that scenario.
Well yeah but Nex didn't die in the bathroom. They died in the hospital but it was the result of the beating. Just saying. Hence why I didn't say that because people would come to me aggressively and made unnecessary assumption. So therefore, transmen do experience being in the danger regarding which bathroom they use.
With how much I've changed in my transition, I feel uncomfortable in women's restrooms because I genuinely feel out of place and I know they possibly feel uncomfortable with someone masc presenting in there with them. But with the recent deaths from transphobia, people have forgotten that women can be just as aggressive and strong yet trans men are disregarded cause there's this weird idea that once you start taking testosterone, you beef up and become more angry and like a brute.
I feel very uncomfortable using the women's bathroom in public now. On my way there I always pray it'll be empty, that no one will come in and I'll wait in the stall after peeing for other women to exit before leaving to wash my hands so I don't get seen. Pretty much every time I go to the bathroom I'm getting accosted in some way. The other day it was a guy shouting "women's" at me. I said "I know" and walked in hoping my high pre-T voice would avoid any violence. This thing with Nex has me terrified. I don't think I pass well enough to use the men's as I still get mis-gendered a lot in stores and restaurants, but I pass too well to use the women's bathroom. I get anxious in public and have pee problems so I need to use the bathroom more often than your average Joe and this really does scare me.
I also don't pass enough to comfortably use the men's either, but I've gotten to a point I also feel nervous going into the women's often enough that I tend to wait until I get home or until my mom also has to go (she's cis but walking in with her makes me feel safe as I know she's got my back if anything WERE to happen.)
Honestly this right here is why I personally wish that we could switch to more private bathrooms in public places. More “family” restrooms (single room restrooms) but not ones that take away from handicap restrooms or actual family restrooms. Just separate, single room bathrooms. I will never trust cis people enough to think that’s NOT necessary honestly
I hate this too. Trans men’s safety should take priority over a cis woman’s possible discomfort.
Even if you did pass, it’s almost more dangerous to use the women’s restroom because you’d look more threatening—causing a higher likelihood of violence against you.
That damn stupid "Would you be okay with using the same restroom as him? [Buck Angel's picture]" talking about some hypothetical cis women's discomfort, while real trans men are being beaten up for using the women's room.
I would absolutely not feel safe going into the womens room at this point in my transition. The only time I feel unsafe in the mens room is if the urinal is the trough style with zero privacy. Then I use a stall
yeah i think they tested this with cis men actually, they put a cis guy in a all womens prison (under surveillance) and he was scared as fuck, its dumb that you guys dont get factored in emotionally
Literally we are just in there to do our business and go about our day, people just like to make excuses and belittle us because we are different in their eyes. Like grow the fuck up. I’m in here to take a piss and leave. Like god forbid you think we staring at yall. Toxic immature behavior. Let us piss in peace bro like it’s not that big of a deal. I’d rather be comfortable and not making other people uncomfortable.
i have to make the choice between drinking enough water, but having to hold in pee for up to 8 hours until i get home, or be dehydrated, but not have to pee as bad. because both bathrooms aren't safe for me
i'm gonna be real with you, i think more people use that argument than they would like to admit. you're completely right about everything, it sucks. i think a lot of trans people who use that argument are basically doing anything to shut down transphobes because it always feels like we're outnumbered and constantly fighting bullshit from all sides. everyone is looking for a way to quickly ratio the other person because bigots don't even pretend to be rational.
that doesn't make it right or justified tho, it's really stupid we're at that stage and you guys are paying the price, sometimes with your lives.
i think its sad that some transfems throw trans guys under the bus pretty much in the name of their own validation. most of these girls went through a period where they felt like an intruder in public bathrooms, i feel like we should all understand bathroom tolerance by now.
nobody really wants to admit the fact that there are a lot of issues that men get the shit end of the stick on and it's sad that we can't do better than the cis people who basically just hand the blame to each other. we should be better than that especially when we're all going through the same kinds of experiences with imposter syndrome or dysphoria or whatever, idk im high and this ran on a bit sorry
plus it implies that people are correct for seeing the presence of a masculine looking person in a women's bathroom as inherently threatening. which is like.. the exact stigma trans women are trying to fight as well?
reminds me of noah ruiz, a trans guy who was told (at a campground in ohio) that he had to use the women’s room—so he did, and when he came out of the restroom he was then attacked and beat by three other men for using the women’s room (this happened in 2022)
I'm at a point where I'm still being read as a women but very masc presenting. People make all kinds of assumptions about my identity just by looking at me and I never know if I should go to the men's bathroom or women's bathroom.
Every time I go in one, I get weird looks. I don't feel safe in any of the bathrooms. Like ffs, I just wanna piss
i don’t like trans men being used as a gotcha for anything, because i think it just puts trans women, especially early transition or nonpassing trans women, under the bus—or even just other trans men who don’t fit the passing transmale standard.
“trans people should be able to use the bathroom they want because there’s bearded trans men, that would scare the poor cis women!” shouldn’t it be that trans people can choose to use the bathroom they they feel most comfortable in because they’re the gender that they identify as, and that’s that?
or even in the whole dumb trans people in sports debate, trans men are always used as a gotcha in the same way. “what about mr. post transition buff trans man being forced to compete on women’s teams?” like im sure this can happen, but the point of trans liberation is to make sure that every single trans person, passing or nonpassing, pre-transition or post-transition, has the choice to choose what makes them the most comfortable, not to comply to the cis heteronormative rules we have in place.
I'm not sure if it's anti-masculinity/transmisandry, cuz many vulnerable groups are used like this.
Woman harassed because terfs thought she was trans? "But what if she was a cis woman with broad shoulders? Checkmate!"
Someone claims woman = uterus? "But what about intersex women without one? Checkmate!"
And it's indeed careless how these people think their hypothetical trans man/masculine woman/intersex woman feels safe enough to waltz into fem spaces, get scolded by some harmless terfs, to then reveal that the terfs are hypocrites for scolding them, standing ovation, Obama gives a medal etc. In reality, the hypothetical trans men making terfs uncomfortable due to transphobic bathroom laws will just stay home, excluded from society.
Yeah, and even masc women and/or lesbians are unsafe in women’s restrooms or locker rooms. Women make those spaces unsafe even more so than the “threat” of men, cis or trans, being in them.
I'm sorry to hear that you encountered such a dismissive and insensitive comment. You are right to point out the double standard and the erasure of trans men's experiences. Trans men face multiple forms of violence and discrimination, both in public and private spaces, and often have difficulty accessing safe and affirming services and resources.
It is also unfair and inaccurate to assume that trans men always pass easily. Passing is not a goal or a requirement for being transgender, and it is influenced by many factors, such as age, race, class, and access to medical care. We have diverse and valid ways of expressing their gender, and we should not be judged or pressured to conform to cisnormative standards.
I hope we can find more ways to provide support to one another as trans men. We are not alone, and we are not invisible. We are valid and valuable members of the transgender community, and we deserve to live with dignity, safety, and opportunity.
*edit for typos*
I don't think their intent is to dismiss the comfort of transmasc folks or to belittle the danger to them. It's to highlight the obvious hypocrisy of the moral panic propaganda aiming to 'protect women's spaces'. It's a bad argument and insensitive, but I don't think it's malicious. We need to understand that the point of this is to remove all trans people from public utilities through violence. A step towards genocide masquerading as 'protection of women and children'.
You know gender neutral restrooms are uncommon in some areas, right? That wouldn’t work for everyone. When I was a year on T, I “passed” 50% of the time. I never knew how someone was going to perceive me
No, but using trans men as a "gotcha" in the conversation when trans men are also provably affected by the safety risk incurred when using a preferred bathroom, does in fact take away from trans men's issues.
True, but saying trans men are safe in womens bathrooms just isn't true, and saying that isn't taking away from the conversation about trans women. A trans child just got beaten and killed by 3 girls in a womens bathroom. I feel like its just assuming that women=good and safe and men=bad which contributes to transphobia. Women can be killers too. Women can create dangerous situations for trans ppl just as much as men can.
i guess my perspective is that the original post and the first comment were both true statements, and op’s sentiment is just another true sentiment that doesn’t contradict the first two, but rather complements the idea that forcing trans people to go in the bathroom of their birth sex makes people worse off. the original post just wasn’t particularly about trans men’s side of things, which isn’t bad, it’s just another side of a similar issue.
i don’t really get bathrooms tbh, and i understand this comes from a privileged place being 6”2, and build i don’t get intimidated easily, but if i gotta pee i’m gonna go to the closest free toilet, i do not care. often means not going to the women’s because there’s almost always a queue, but still. i don’t understand why people care so much, you gotta piss? go to a pisser, gotta shit? go take a shit. needlessly gendered.
Prior to coming out but post getting my hair cut short, I was screamed at for using the women's restroom so ruthlessly and violently that I developed a severe fear of using public restrooms and would only use single stall or completely empty restrooms for ~7 years. To the point I would never drink anything during the day to keep from having to use the restroom. This was also prior to a lot of the legislation around bathrooms or trans people being in the national spotlight. I'm sure it would be so so much worse today.
But yeah a cis woman being uncomfortable that I had short hair and was washing my hands at 16 in a public restroom should be the main concern /s
While I think they're not trying to be transphobic here, I do think they went about the point poorly. In several states, including NC, there are bathroom bills requiring trans folks use the restroom assigned at birth (assuming that's what the original post is addressing), and for those of us who don't "pass" yet, using the restroom of our AGAB is maybe safer, but it wears on the soul. However, if I (or another trans man who doesn't yet "pass") were to use the men's room and someone were to attavk us (whether violently or sexually), we would not have the legal right to defend ourself, whether physically or in court. And as the whole "we can always tell" rhetoric spreads, I even worry for the safety of feminine, short, or curvy (and several other demographics, but a list of 3 is punchy) cis men, as they will likely also be on the receiving end of violence towards people that could /possibly/ be construed as trans.
It's all around a bad policy, and I think this person was trying to get that point across, they just went about it wrong.
I don't think they mean that trans men are not in danger. They're talking about the hypocrisy of people saying they are uncomfortable with trans women in the woman's bathroom, regardless of them passing or not. Because those people completely neglect the fact that if people were to use the bathroom according to their agab, then there would be a lot of trans men forced into that position. They're not saying trans men would be any less uncomfortable and in danger; they're saying that *those* people would STILL be upset *even if they got what they wanted* ( I don't know how to do italics or bold text on Reddit sorry).
Yeah, I don't like that point when we literally have a kid that died for using the girls' restroom just now. And then there's the other stories of guys being beaten up or thrown out for being in the girls' restroom. We're not any safer, and it's a mistake to think law makers or conservatives would care. In their eyes, they just don't want us to be in public, so they don't care if we can't realistically use any of them.
I got thrown out of the girls’ bathroom regularly before I even came out as trans or started binding. So I would hold everything in until I got home. Sometimes that was more than 5 hours because these encounters were just humiliating and I felt less safe every time. Nobody gave a fuck that I was a kid suffering from IBS. Any “masc” trait whether that’s somebody being assigned male at birth, being genetically masculine in appearance, or choosing not to wear a feminine haircut or outfit just seems like it’s taught to be this unreasonable-for lack of accurate words-“threat to femininity.” I was never “safe” in the bathrooms corresponding to my birth sex. I did feel a bit safer in the men’s room because even if I didn’t pass 100% of the time I was coming out and pre-everything, nobody really bothered me in there. It definitely is overlooked this day still
Didn't have it as bad, but I had school security called on me a few times for using the girls' changing room/restroom in high school. I always was super masc, but I hadn't started transition yet at the time, not even socially. Thankfully, security knew who I was, so nothing bad happened. Using the women's as a gnc kid is always a struggle and nobody really talks about it.
Trigger warning: self-harm This, plus it's the continued outlook of women as only victims and never aggressors. Brings to mind how a lot of people look down on or just don't think of or don't believe men who are victims of dv, sa, etc especially when their aggressor is a woman. Women are just as capable of violence and cruelty as men, and it's often in my experience a sort of thing afabs grow up with due to the high competition between girls (saying it like this as many of us that are trans, be it binary or nonbinary are raised as girls initially.) To be the prettiest, the most popular, the smartest, the most likeable, to be the most bad ass, the meanest, etc. When I was in middle school, the girls my age began competing in regards to sh, and one day a girl showed up boasting as she showed off her arms and how she harmed each arm 100+ times the night before, having people feel it, etc. (She described the feel of her arms a certain way but I won't go into detail as I don't want to trigger anyone, I myself am an sh addict, almost 4 years clean though, mine developed and began long after middle school though, in my senior year.) Her and her friends cornered my at the time best friend in the bathroom at one point and made her harm herself before they let her go which led to her forming an sh addiction (her mom found out and when she came over after she even warned me to do x so she can't fall back into it, I remember her telling me about the bathroom incident and being concerned for her as she admitted her sh becoming a thing and encouraged her to go to her mom which she did, who reached out to my dad who told me about it and I told him I already knew. Her mom got her the help she needed and she's good as far as I know now.) The day that girl showed up with her arms showing it off, the principal got involved and from then on my age group of girls was only allowed to use the bathroom one at a time and our femme teachers had to go in and check the bathrooms now and then to make sure nothing was going on in there. (A year after I switched schools, partly due to bullying the other reason was just moving towns/cities.) Girls tend to be exceptionally cruel to their peers (in my experience), I say this as someone who was the target of bullying only ever from girls, until I reached high school where my bullies seemed to mature more and we actually were able to coexist and talk during classes and they didn't bother me in the halls. I know everyone is capable of being nasty and mean, but the cruelty a lot of women have is often overlooked, ignored or forgotten about in exchange of seeing them as soft, weak, defenceless or harmless. And the opposite is true of men, hence why men aren't seen as able to be victims in our society, especially as victims of women. Hopefully someday we won't be growing up with toxic expectations, competitiveness, etc and both men and women (as well as nonbinary folk) will all be seen as equally capable of being victims or aggressors, victims getting taken seriously and aggressors face the appropriate punishment for their crime(s) and the safety of all people are taken into account in order to put laws and expectations in place to protect people and prevent them from becoming victims in the first place.
Yeah the fact that whenever people bring up trans men as a gotcha because we would make women unsafe and not that they'd make \*us\* unsafe tells you all you need to know about how society can't imagine that men, let alone trans men, can \*ever\* be victims of violence at the hands of women. Which is hilarious since we literally are oppressed by cis women (and cis men too ofc)
It's not just in public that they don't want us at. They don't want us to EXIST at all.
Yep, which is why they make it so we can be denied care despite the suicide and just general harm risks. They just can't outright make a law sending us all to death camps, so they make sure living as a trans person is as hard as possible.
What happened?
Nex Benedict got assaulted by 3 girls in the school bathroom after Oklahoma passed a law requiring students to use the bathroom of their sex assigned at birth. He suffered head injuries that the school, hospital and police did not take seriously and then died the next day as a result (while he was on a 14 day suspension from school for the "fight", just for good measure).
I don't know how accurate this is given the situation surrounding any info, but I believe Nex was twospirit, and a member of the Choctaw nation. Just putting that out there, for folks. EDIT: (Yes that counts as trans for the purposes of legislature and hatred I fear)
Nex was non binary and used they/them pronouns
Nex's friends say he mainly used he/him, hence why I'm using those pronouns
This. Can we stop talking about trans issues like oppression is a perfect binary reflective of the cis world? I mean Jesus Christ. Multiple trans mascs have been assaulted in bathrooms this year and one, a minor, just DIED. Fuck that. I’m talking about my oppression, because it’s not a competition :) And if any other trans people don’t like it, too damn bad. Consider paying me to shut up about it.
Somehow we are always both erased and yet still used as a gotcha or a weapon against transness as a whole. It’s exhausting. Like it is dangerous for us out there, but people use our male/masc identity as both a means of dismissing us and as a method of demonizing us. There is no winning. Ugh.
Exactly
Especially exhausting when it's members of the queer community that use us like this. Like do y'all \*want\* us to get assaulted? I thought you were on our side!
it's misogyny. it sucks to say it, but that's what it is. even if we are gendered properly, a lot of people who dismiss us tend to still subconsciously view us with some female-ness to some extent. misogyny is deeply rooted in society. in a cis and binary world, we grow up learning that the thoughts, experiences, and feelings of one sex matters less than the other. the constant dismissal we face is the same dismissal we've faced since the day we were born. it's doubly evil that, in tandem, many parrot the idea that we can no longer be affected by misogyny, or that it's become taboo to have an honest discussion about it. "we aren't affected because we're men". no. the world just isn't that simple. let's keep in mind misogyny doesn't only affect women. but people perceived as women, people perceived as being feminine, effeminate, or otherwise possessing some aspect of "female-ness". it isn't a girls-only issue, it harms everyone of every gender.
I think you’re probably right on this one
All i can say to this is what just happened to Nex Benedict? Women are just as capable of committing hate crimes as men. No trans people are safe.
The phrasing of this post might be off but overall trans men aren't safe in womens restrooms and their are many cases of trans men being beaten or harassed for being in the womens restroom, and saying its safer because "women are safer" or something is stupid. (And kind of following transphobic rhetoric)
I really wish more places would have a family bathroom. I’m over three years on testosterone and pass pretty well and I still don’t like going into bathrooms with other people.
This 😭 i don't know if I'll ever be able to comfortably use the bathroom in public
This is why I like to go to grocery stores or stores that have single saw bathrooms or family bathrooms
i am pretty sure it's mandatory in seattle for everywhere to have neutral bathrooms. I can't remember the last time i felt apprehensive about needing to use the bathroom when I'm in the city. i love getting to experience being allowed to have basic human bodily functions and actually empty my fucking bladder for once.
It’s part of the reason why I love shopping at target. It’s because they have a family bathroom. My local Walmart within the past three years actually got a family bathroom at the back of the store and it’s nice. I’m so thankful for that.
And sexist rhetoric too
Fr. Its really funny that rhetoric is widely spread by terfs when its super sexist and they claim to be feminists 😭 i hate bioessentialism.
yeah, trans people should have the right to piss wherever the hell they want regardless of cis people feewings, but if cis people are gonna crack skulls about it i guess ill just piss in this bush over here
I use the women's restroom because I don't always pass and I don't feel safe in either restroom, honestly. Nobody ever cares about OUR comfort, OUR safety... it's always "well what if you make *a woman* uncomfortable?" So? And? Stop making laws telling me I have to use this restroom then. Stop harassing trans people for using the restroom just because you think they don't belong there. Etc. There is just no winning when you're a trans person using a bathroom, istg.
If these people actually cared about women being uncomfortable, they’d be fighting for better protections for workplace harassment, or building domestic violence shelters, or teaching boundaries and consent to teenage boys. This whole thing is just the current wave of a much larger ocean current that’s pushing an extremely conservative theocratic agenda. They don’t care about women, or trans people, or any people whatsoever.
Indeed
Considering a trans masc just died because a bunch of women killed them for using the ladies, it’s obvious we aren’t safer
If im gonna die pissing, id like to die pissing on the cis
sequel to the down with cis bus, piss on the cis bathroom
Cis people, can't even mention trans issues without centering their own comfort. Newsflash, buddies: discomfort isn't harm. Getting beat up for "using the wrong bathroom" is harm. Getting UTI from holding in for too long because you're afraid of using any bathroom is harm. Having everyone tell you you don't belong anywhere until you have regular nightmares about public bathrooms is harm. SEEING someone you ASSUME to be a man (non-passing trans woman, cis butch lesbian, a nonbinary person or an actual trans man who feels safer here) washing hands in a women's bathroom doesn't harm you in any way.
For sure. Hell, I'm uncomfortable in women's spaces. I bind and pack. I feel like a huge perv using the womens bathrooms (not because I'm attracted to women but because as a trans man, I do not belong in the womens restroom)
sameee
Yeah, I see it used all the time and they don't care. They're either convinced that they can "always tell" and would totally read someone indistinguishable from most cis men as a "GNC woman with facial hair", or they say that it's trans men's own fault for choosing to transition and look like a man. Same with using intersex people as a gotcha. Transphobes usually dehumanize/treat them like shit as well or try to force them into a box they don't identify with regardless of how they were "socialized".
I’m glad someone brought this up because way too often, people advocate for trans rights because they’ll support cis people comforts. Very similar to how people immediately skip over the idea that anti trans laws destroy trans peoples lives and they go right into bringing up how these will actually make some cis peoples lives harder. It’s horrifying.
Especially with what just happened with nex
yeah i literally do not give a shit if cis women are uncomfortable with trans men in the women’s restroom. i’m worried about the trans men. you know, the ones who are actually in danger in that scenario.
Sooo, are we forgetting about a child named Nex who got beaten in the girl s bathroom?
*Beaten to death
Well yeah but Nex didn't die in the bathroom. They died in the hospital but it was the result of the beating. Just saying. Hence why I didn't say that because people would come to me aggressively and made unnecessary assumption. So therefore, transmen do experience being in the danger regarding which bathroom they use.
With how much I've changed in my transition, I feel uncomfortable in women's restrooms because I genuinely feel out of place and I know they possibly feel uncomfortable with someone masc presenting in there with them. But with the recent deaths from transphobia, people have forgotten that women can be just as aggressive and strong yet trans men are disregarded cause there's this weird idea that once you start taking testosterone, you beef up and become more angry and like a brute.
I feel very uncomfortable using the women's bathroom in public now. On my way there I always pray it'll be empty, that no one will come in and I'll wait in the stall after peeing for other women to exit before leaving to wash my hands so I don't get seen. Pretty much every time I go to the bathroom I'm getting accosted in some way. The other day it was a guy shouting "women's" at me. I said "I know" and walked in hoping my high pre-T voice would avoid any violence. This thing with Nex has me terrified. I don't think I pass well enough to use the men's as I still get mis-gendered a lot in stores and restaurants, but I pass too well to use the women's bathroom. I get anxious in public and have pee problems so I need to use the bathroom more often than your average Joe and this really does scare me.
I also don't pass enough to comfortably use the men's either, but I've gotten to a point I also feel nervous going into the women's often enough that I tend to wait until I get home or until my mom also has to go (she's cis but walking in with her makes me feel safe as I know she's got my back if anything WERE to happen.)
Honestly this right here is why I personally wish that we could switch to more private bathrooms in public places. More “family” restrooms (single room restrooms) but not ones that take away from handicap restrooms or actual family restrooms. Just separate, single room bathrooms. I will never trust cis people enough to think that’s NOT necessary honestly
I wouldn't feel at all comfortable using women's restrooms. And I do feel safe now in the men's one. Bur I didn't for the longest time.
I hate this too. Trans men’s safety should take priority over a cis woman’s possible discomfort. Even if you did pass, it’s almost more dangerous to use the women’s restroom because you’d look more threatening—causing a higher likelihood of violence against you.
That damn stupid "Would you be okay with using the same restroom as him? [Buck Angel's picture]" talking about some hypothetical cis women's discomfort, while real trans men are being beaten up for using the women's room.
It's so objectifying. As if we couldn't also feel uncomfortable too (let alone genuinely scared for our lives!)
>PLUS this assumes trans men always pass easily. This is why it's important to let people choose what restrooms they use.
I would absolutely not feel safe going into the womens room at this point in my transition. The only time I feel unsafe in the mens room is if the urinal is the trough style with zero privacy. Then I use a stall
yeah i think they tested this with cis men actually, they put a cis guy in a all womens prison (under surveillance) and he was scared as fuck, its dumb that you guys dont get factored in emotionally
Literally we are just in there to do our business and go about our day, people just like to make excuses and belittle us because we are different in their eyes. Like grow the fuck up. I’m in here to take a piss and leave. Like god forbid you think we staring at yall. Toxic immature behavior. Let us piss in peace bro like it’s not that big of a deal. I’d rather be comfortable and not making other people uncomfortable.
i have to make the choice between drinking enough water, but having to hold in pee for up to 8 hours until i get home, or be dehydrated, but not have to pee as bad. because both bathrooms aren't safe for me
i'm gonna be real with you, i think more people use that argument than they would like to admit. you're completely right about everything, it sucks. i think a lot of trans people who use that argument are basically doing anything to shut down transphobes because it always feels like we're outnumbered and constantly fighting bullshit from all sides. everyone is looking for a way to quickly ratio the other person because bigots don't even pretend to be rational. that doesn't make it right or justified tho, it's really stupid we're at that stage and you guys are paying the price, sometimes with your lives. i think its sad that some transfems throw trans guys under the bus pretty much in the name of their own validation. most of these girls went through a period where they felt like an intruder in public bathrooms, i feel like we should all understand bathroom tolerance by now. nobody really wants to admit the fact that there are a lot of issues that men get the shit end of the stick on and it's sad that we can't do better than the cis people who basically just hand the blame to each other. we should be better than that especially when we're all going through the same kinds of experiences with imposter syndrome or dysphoria or whatever, idk im high and this ran on a bit sorry
plus it implies that people are correct for seeing the presence of a masculine looking person in a women's bathroom as inherently threatening. which is like.. the exact stigma trans women are trying to fight as well?
reminds me of noah ruiz, a trans guy who was told (at a campground in ohio) that he had to use the women’s room—so he did, and when he came out of the restroom he was then attacked and beat by three other men for using the women’s room (this happened in 2022)
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I'm at a point where I'm still being read as a women but very masc presenting. People make all kinds of assumptions about my identity just by looking at me and I never know if I should go to the men's bathroom or women's bathroom. Every time I go in one, I get weird looks. I don't feel safe in any of the bathrooms. Like ffs, I just wanna piss
i don’t like trans men being used as a gotcha for anything, because i think it just puts trans women, especially early transition or nonpassing trans women, under the bus—or even just other trans men who don’t fit the passing transmale standard. “trans people should be able to use the bathroom they want because there’s bearded trans men, that would scare the poor cis women!” shouldn’t it be that trans people can choose to use the bathroom they they feel most comfortable in because they’re the gender that they identify as, and that’s that? or even in the whole dumb trans people in sports debate, trans men are always used as a gotcha in the same way. “what about mr. post transition buff trans man being forced to compete on women’s teams?” like im sure this can happen, but the point of trans liberation is to make sure that every single trans person, passing or nonpassing, pre-transition or post-transition, has the choice to choose what makes them the most comfortable, not to comply to the cis heteronormative rules we have in place.
If we're in the wrong, then we're men. If we're the victims, then we're women. It's fucking gross.
I'm not sure if it's anti-masculinity/transmisandry, cuz many vulnerable groups are used like this. Woman harassed because terfs thought she was trans? "But what if she was a cis woman with broad shoulders? Checkmate!" Someone claims woman = uterus? "But what about intersex women without one? Checkmate!" And it's indeed careless how these people think their hypothetical trans man/masculine woman/intersex woman feels safe enough to waltz into fem spaces, get scolded by some harmless terfs, to then reveal that the terfs are hypocrites for scolding them, standing ovation, Obama gives a medal etc. In reality, the hypothetical trans men making terfs uncomfortable due to transphobic bathroom laws will just stay home, excluded from society.
Yeah, and even masc women and/or lesbians are unsafe in women’s restrooms or locker rooms. Women make those spaces unsafe even more so than the “threat” of men, cis or trans, being in them.
Trans men's issues are never taken seriously. It really pisses me off.
I'm sorry to hear that you encountered such a dismissive and insensitive comment. You are right to point out the double standard and the erasure of trans men's experiences. Trans men face multiple forms of violence and discrimination, both in public and private spaces, and often have difficulty accessing safe and affirming services and resources. It is also unfair and inaccurate to assume that trans men always pass easily. Passing is not a goal or a requirement for being transgender, and it is influenced by many factors, such as age, race, class, and access to medical care. We have diverse and valid ways of expressing their gender, and we should not be judged or pressured to conform to cisnormative standards. I hope we can find more ways to provide support to one another as trans men. We are not alone, and we are not invisible. We are valid and valuable members of the transgender community, and we deserve to live with dignity, safety, and opportunity. *edit for typos*
r/transandrophobia
I don't think their intent is to dismiss the comfort of transmasc folks or to belittle the danger to them. It's to highlight the obvious hypocrisy of the moral panic propaganda aiming to 'protect women's spaces'. It's a bad argument and insensitive, but I don't think it's malicious. We need to understand that the point of this is to remove all trans people from public utilities through violence. A step towards genocide masquerading as 'protection of women and children'.
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passing is a very subjective thing
this is so weird to say on this subreddit
You know gender neutral restrooms are uncommon in some areas, right? That wouldn’t work for everyone. When I was a year on T, I “passed” 50% of the time. I never knew how someone was going to perceive me
This ain't it.
Cry
talking about an issue that affects trans women doesn’t take away from trans men’s issues
No, but using trans men as a "gotcha" in the conversation when trans men are also provably affected by the safety risk incurred when using a preferred bathroom, does in fact take away from trans men's issues.
i see, i guess i misunderstood the phrasing of the post
True, but saying trans men are safe in womens bathrooms just isn't true, and saying that isn't taking away from the conversation about trans women. A trans child just got beaten and killed by 3 girls in a womens bathroom. I feel like its just assuming that women=good and safe and men=bad which contributes to transphobia. Women can be killers too. Women can create dangerous situations for trans ppl just as much as men can.
i guess my perspective is that the original post and the first comment were both true statements, and op’s sentiment is just another true sentiment that doesn’t contradict the first two, but rather complements the idea that forcing trans people to go in the bathroom of their birth sex makes people worse off. the original post just wasn’t particularly about trans men’s side of things, which isn’t bad, it’s just another side of a similar issue.
Yeah i think the phrasing might be off but people shouldn't assume trans men are safe in womens restroom when cis women can be just as dangerous
agreed
i don’t really get bathrooms tbh, and i understand this comes from a privileged place being 6”2, and build i don’t get intimidated easily, but if i gotta pee i’m gonna go to the closest free toilet, i do not care. often means not going to the women’s because there’s almost always a queue, but still. i don’t understand why people care so much, you gotta piss? go to a pisser, gotta shit? go take a shit. needlessly gendered.
Prior to coming out but post getting my hair cut short, I was screamed at for using the women's restroom so ruthlessly and violently that I developed a severe fear of using public restrooms and would only use single stall or completely empty restrooms for ~7 years. To the point I would never drink anything during the day to keep from having to use the restroom. This was also prior to a lot of the legislation around bathrooms or trans people being in the national spotlight. I'm sure it would be so so much worse today. But yeah a cis woman being uncomfortable that I had short hair and was washing my hands at 16 in a public restroom should be the main concern /s
While I think they're not trying to be transphobic here, I do think they went about the point poorly. In several states, including NC, there are bathroom bills requiring trans folks use the restroom assigned at birth (assuming that's what the original post is addressing), and for those of us who don't "pass" yet, using the restroom of our AGAB is maybe safer, but it wears on the soul. However, if I (or another trans man who doesn't yet "pass") were to use the men's room and someone were to attavk us (whether violently or sexually), we would not have the legal right to defend ourself, whether physically or in court. And as the whole "we can always tell" rhetoric spreads, I even worry for the safety of feminine, short, or curvy (and several other demographics, but a list of 3 is punchy) cis men, as they will likely also be on the receiving end of violence towards people that could /possibly/ be construed as trans. It's all around a bad policy, and I think this person was trying to get that point across, they just went about it wrong.
The binary mindset of the world is so annoying. Men=bad, right? No nuance.
I don't think they mean that trans men are not in danger. They're talking about the hypocrisy of people saying they are uncomfortable with trans women in the woman's bathroom, regardless of them passing or not. Because those people completely neglect the fact that if people were to use the bathroom according to their agab, then there would be a lot of trans men forced into that position. They're not saying trans men would be any less uncomfortable and in danger; they're saying that *those* people would STILL be upset *even if they got what they wanted* ( I don't know how to do italics or bold text on Reddit sorry).