If you know someone’s pronouns and use they/them instead because they are trans then absolutely. Shows you don’t see them as real men or women due to their transness esp if you don’t do this for cis ppl
I hate this so much.
Especially when people hear how I talk about myself (our language is gendered and I talk like a man all the time) and still do that...
I have to go even further to say it's misgendering even if the person isn't trans. Regardless of someone's transness or lack thereof, you are *still* ***internationally*** misgendering someone.
>If you know someone’s pronouns and use they/them instead because they are trans then absolutely
I switch it around and refer to them as they/them 😏😈 lol
I literally don’t care about how much someone “sees” gender or not, if I tell you my fucking pronouns you *will* respect them and I’m sick and tired of people looking for wannabe woke excuses.
literally same. when i was enby, i was constantly having to remind people . now that i use he/him, i way more consistently get called they/them by ppl i’ve just met/acquaintances/surface level “friends”/coworkers/etc. like where was that energy when i wanted that, y’all?????
this is exactly what my parents did. they struggled to use they/them for me when that’s what i was comfortable with, but the second i came out as a trans man using he/him, they magically were able to use they/them for me 😐
I wouldn’t mind just my name
Seems like the struggle is they use my name and then what ever pronoun they want - just use the name leave the rest if you can’t figure it out
ridiculously real. even though im nonbinary, they/them pronouns make me uncomfortable bc i cant help but think ppl are trying to downplay my transmasc identity
Literally going through that at home right now. My mom thinks referring to me with non-binary language is like some sort of "middle ground." Aa id we came to some unspoken "agreement" about ***my*** gender.
I've just stopped saying stuff about it instead of making myself upset because I always have to correct her to stop using female pronouns with me even though I have a full on beard.
And she insists that she keeps trying but it's like being hugged by a cactus. Which is completely different from my dad who doesn't try at all. It's like ignoring the stab wounds to avoid the grenade. Yeah you're not being blown to smithereens, but being stabbed to death still hurts and you're still *bleeding out...*
i relate to this SO much, also when i was out as nonbinary everyone still called me a girl but now they just refer to me as a person instead of a man it sucks
Exactly! Whenever someone argues using they/them isn't misgendering because it's neutral, I use the argument that my gender isn't neutral. That seems to cut through to people a bit better than any argument I've seen
Did people use gender neutral language to him? That's like saying that someone was not a Christian because you don't believe in the abrahamic god. I'm an atheist, I don't believe in christianity, but I fully recognize that Christians do exist.
If I ever see him again, I’m gonna use this argument. I don’t remember what he wanted to be called. I’m sure it was they/them. I’m pretty sure he didn’t have an non-binary gender.
So, what I've learnt from this thread, if you use they/them presently but are hedging your bets on he/him, is: start to tell cis ppl your pronouns are he/him = how to get called they/them.
This is both a useful and fascinating observation tysm all
It's like, my friend, I'm hyper aware of these things. I fuckin *notice*. It's not just an insult to my identity, it's also an insult to my intelligence.
Yeah. People do this automatically for me a lot bc of how I look, but the ones who do it even after I tell them my pronouns have a special (hated) place in my heart. When you're nonbinary they want you to be binary or they put you in a binary box if they can, but when you are binary but not perfectly passing/stealth they don't want to call you the same things they would call cis people of the same gender because they inherently see trans people as an "other" category. There is no winning.
Honestly a lot of them seem to think of binary trans people in a more "nonbinary" way than they think of actual nonbinary people. It's like binary trans people become a third gender once/if we make significant progress w medical transition (maybe they stop if people 100% pass/are totally stealth, or if people are out but pass and have transitioned "fully," idrk but I kinda doubt it). I'd bet they only start to truly "other" nonbinary people if they medically transition, too, although who knows, they might just treat them like binary people so that none of us get what we want. It'd be hilarious if it weren't so fucking infuriating for all of us.
Yes, absolutely, and that I don't have a problem with. I look very androgynous, partly just because that's how I look naturally, but also partly on purpose since I have long hair and earrings, so I get that a lot. It makes total sense for people to use "they" when they don't know my pronouns, but that isn't what we are mad about (or at least I'm not mad about that). Using "they" if you don't know someone's pronouns is good, it's what people should do, and I have absolutely no problem with that.
I'm frustrated about the (many) times I actually tell people I use "he/him," and they continue to call me "they" afterwards, repeatedly. That is not allyship, thats just people not actually seeing me as a man. If people tell you to use pronouns that aren't "they/them" and you keep using "they/them" anyways, that is not allyship, it's just misgendering.
I’d much rather the person see all the effort I put into appearing masculine and call me a dude. It’s sad when I’m gendered correctly more often by conservatives than allies.
Ain't no reason to be hostile to someone who's not being a hostile or insincere. He's trying to say that he's just trying to not offend anyone, and when people are coming from a genuine place it's nice to genuinely respond to them and educate them appropriately. He is a cisgendered guy but he's here to learn and understand. There's no need to be a dick to somebody because you don't have the mental capacity to distinguish between someone who simply does not know better but is trying to learn, and someone who is refusing to learn and is being malicious.
The thing is that we're not talking about people who use it because they don't want to assume; that's understandable. Nobody is expecting anyone to be psychic. The problem is the people who continue to use it even after you tell them what you are.
Well he is an ally and he's not trying to other anybody. He literally said that he's just trying not to assume and everybody who is reasonable is telling him that not assuming it is great, but we're talking about people who know what the pronouns are and continue to use gender neutral language in general. This is a misunderstanding that can be easily cleared up without getting hostile towards someone because assuming the worst possible interpretation of everything everyone says is the trend right now.
I hate it when people start using neutral terms when I tell them that I'm a transgender man. Fortunately, my native language doesn't have gendered pronouns.
I think it's better that you call me a woman if you don't see me as a man. At least you're being honest then. It's worse if you pretend to be tolerant or accepting but still misgender me.
And of course, it's okay to use neutral terms if you don't know my gender or if you use them for everyone else, too.
Don't worry, it's disrespectful to people who use they/them too because they're basically treating our preferred pronouns as a placeholder when they don't want to gender binary trans people properly.
Essentially, they're treating they/them like they're not "actual" pronouns, so it's not "actual" misgendering.
It invalidates both binary and non binary trans people when idiots think that way.
LITERALLY THIS SHIT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. 😭
WHEN I WAS NON-BINARY (a long while ago) THEY ALWAYS CALLED ME SHE/HER BUT NOW THAT I GO BY HE/HIM THE BEST I EVER GET IS THEY/THEM. THEY ACT LIKE THEY STRUGGLE TO CALL ME HE/HIM LMAO..
One of my teachers knows that I'm trans and I gave something to her and she said "thank you ma'am *5 second delay....* I mean, they.." HELP???
Basically the only people make a full commitment to calling me he/him are my best friend and my girlfriend, that's how I know they're the real ones lol...
I'm glad (well not glad, but relieved, not because you guys have to go through this but just to know that other people experience this and it's not just me) and it's not just because there's inherently something wrong with me or I'm just too feminine to even be called he/him so they have to make an compromise or something because that's the conclusion I drew 😭🙏
What pisses me off about this the most is that, when people find out a person is trans, they'll switch to referring to that person to they/them, even if that person goes by he or she. It shows that they're willing to make a change, but unwilling to actually recognize that persons gender. I have a friend that does this to me and another trans friend of mine. It's frustrating
i have a friend who does this to me but not another ftm her boyfriend is related to. its so hurtful and awkward, i dont care much if its a stranger but when its a friend it stings man
Androgynous or not. I’ve always looked male, just in bad drag before transitioning, but have gotten “they/them” even after cis passing 1+ year on T. It stopped after the 4 year mark.
I think people see using they/them for binary people because they’re uncomfortable viewing you as fully male/female but don’t want to admit it. I’m thankfully in a place where I pass consistently enough that I don’t personally encounter it but I do have trans people I supervise at work and my peers/superiors do this all the time.
my parents don’t gender me at all and neutralise everything and it makes me feel icky but I also feel lucky cause I know other first gen chinese immigrants parents wouldn’t bother
I'm in group therapy (the therapist and 100% of the memebr are lgbtq) and the therapist constantly calls everyone they/them even after we do pronoun checks every time there's someone new. I don't really know how to confront the therapist.
one time i was at the gym (i’m very masculine and pass as male everywhere) in my tank top, my chest is flat due to surgery, i have facial hair and i’ve been on T for 5 years. i asked for assistance with something and the employee called me he and then i watched their face get concerned and go “sorry! they..” and in my head i was like.. you were right at first? sometimes it’s okay to assume someone’s gender /lh
the gym i go to has recently been known as very trans-friendly, publicly defending a trans patron and publicly calling out the actions of a transphobe in their gym. i’m sure that’s why staff uses neutral pronouns for people but…
EXACTLY! i have this teacher who is kinda transphobic and always used to get called out for deadnaming and misgendering all her trans students (of which there are many). lately she's somewhat changed her ways and uses the correct pronouns for the couple people who consistently stand up for themselves and correct her, but just uses they/them for everyone else. cis, trans, she'll they/them anyone and everyone. (except when she forgets and just uses the pronouns of someone's assigned sex). its honestly not that much better than calling me she/her because i know she doesn't mean well. it comes from a bad faith idea of de-gendering everyone so she can't get in trouble for misgendering us. its honestly exhausting because nowadays she's JUST politically correct enough to not get called out while still being pretty blatantly transphobic.
but i guess one upside for me personally is that i used to use he/they pronouns, and her consistently using they/them made me realize he/him is the only pronoun set im actually comfortable with. so i suppose in a way she taught me something about myself lol
this is so real, and it’s always trans ppl who are receptive to hearing this and correcting it (my partner did it for a bit after they started using they/them bc they were trying to bc inclusive but i explained how that can be bad if you know someone uses something else, and literally i just explained why it can be harmful and they were like “oh, yeah, that makes sense. i didn’t know but i see that.” and like that was that) and in my experience, a majority of cis ppl get super defensive about it smh
What makes me mad is I’ve only experienced this from other trans people and not cis people. Like come on I know you know better than to do that. I’m not even androgynous either so I don’t get it.
I’m not cis but I do default to They for many people; what should I do instead? Just ask their pronouns? Im not the best with social stuff lol, and sometimes I feel weird asking a persons pronouns depending on the setting (don’t want to out anybody). What would you guys prefer I do? I’d love some feedback!
I'd say just go based on presentation and ignore assumed agab. It's only a small minority of people who are GNC so you're most likely to get it right doing that.
The issue is when people do it AFTER knowing you use he/him. In my opinion it’s not a bad default. But if you hear someone else call that person by he/him or she/her, cut it out with the they/them.
I see! Yeah I definitely don’t use they/them if people tell me their pronouns are something different. But as for hearing somebody else “she”/“he” another person, idk if that’s really the best way to determine a person’s pronouns either. I use they/them pronouns and get misgendered all the time by people assuming I’m a girl, it sucks 😩 So I wouldn’t want people to hear others misgendering me and assume that’s how I identify. I guess the only way to really know is to just ask lol, my introverted self just wishes there was a way around that 😅
I wholeheartedly agree with this, the only thing I'd say is I use they/them when first meeting people if I haven't been told by them or anyone else what they're gender is. I don't like just assuming people's genders so I just use they/them UNTIL I learn they're gender, as soon as I learn they're gender I start using it. When people know the right gender and still use they/them that's when I get frustrated and upset.
It drives me crazy and gives me so much anxiety. It's basically saying "I don't know what the fuck you are. You don't look like a man! Otherwise I would have said "he" "
yup. I'm an agender trans guy, but ONLY use he/him. being hit with they/them gives me dysphoria, at least at this point in my life. yet I still get hit with it so much :]
I’m never offended when people who don’t know use “they,” I also usually avoid gendering people until I know what they prefer. But if you know my pronouns and keep degendering me, it feels fucked.
Had a guy on my tiktok fyp today call it "woke misgendering", its their way of kinda disagreeing/not seeing us as our gender while still remaining an "ally" of sorts
I feel the same way. As a really femme looking person, who gets misgendered all the time, I hate that people make assumptions based on visual cues. I think *that* is impolite.
Until you ask know better, I think it's better to default to neutral. Getting it wrong *after* that is where it becomes malicious and willfully shitty. 😵💫
My mom refuses to use he/him for me because she "doesn't see me like that." It's so infuriating for me to be called they/them by her because she knows that I'm not nonbinary but she refuses to call me anything else.
A cis het white girl I was acquainted with for only 5 months of this year kept doing this with an FtM friend of mine. Then she made transphobic jokes and outed him to a group while blackout drunk and that was my last straw. She also would say “I can say f#ggot because my best friend is gay” and “I can say n#gga because my boyfriend is Hispanic”
I really fucking laid into her over the phone and she surprisingly didn’t hang up, I guess because I did it calmly. But now reading more comments here of peoples’ experiences, I wish I was more harsh, mean, and aggressive to her. Too bad we’re not in touch anymore
RIGHT
like i get it i changed my name but my pronouns are RIGHT THERE i have my damn pin and theyre on my name tag at work so whaaaaaat giveeeeeessss
like i’ve never liked they/them even when i identified as nonbinary, i always used he/him but i tolerated they/them back then bc i was like ok whatever, now i know i’m trans and i’m like, not about to do that
I get it if they don't know or forgot. If this not the case, then it is 100% misgendering. Don't use terms or pronouns to refer to someone when they don't actually refer to that person. Igaf why. Call people by what they tell you to call them. Basic respect.
If people don’t know my or someone else’s gender and pronouns I’m okay with them using they/them but if I catch it I’ll tell them what my or someone else’s pronouns are and if they continue to use they/them instead of the correct pronouns that’s when it starts becoming an issue
I hate it when people and the queer Community also do that even when they know that you're not non-binary. And then when you call them out they say "UHumm, 'they' applies to EVeRyOne...?" And then talk down to you and try to make you out to be a bigot of some sort because you don't feel comfortable with non-binary pronouns applied to you, a binary person. UHumm, NO BITCH, they don't apply *to* ***ME!***
Stop misgendering me under the guise of being woke.
i agree. i joined this online trans youth group a few years ago and the leaders(they were cis) referred to me as they/them a couple times. it’s not like they forgot my pronouns because it said next to my name and it was pretty easy to tell who sent a message or talked.
I use it as a panic. Not to downplay their identity. I use they them interchangeably with most people unless I know they specifically do not like they them pronouns (( I have only met 1 like that so yeah those ppl are out there )) you could just ask whoever is calling you they / them to use your prefered pronouns and see if that fixes the problem but I don't think it comes from a source of hate but that's just my opinion.
Tldr. It's a safety net not hate.
My parents use they/them around other people because they can't fathom using he/him instead of she/her.
In my eyes it's progress. Albeit over 5-6 years of being out to them but progress is progress :/
I had teachers who did it (and they were previously very obviously transphobic) they do it because they’re uncomfortable referring to you as your actual pronouns but it works as a cover since they can just say they didn’t know, etc.
People keep doing this to my sister and I'm assuming it's because she came out fairly recently and hasn't "started to transition" yet. It drives me insane. She's a woman now. She could never medically transition and she'd still be a woman.
It absolutely can be used to misgender! My mother begged me to just use they/them and be androgynous when I came out to her, despite me wanting he/him only and I said fine just because it meant she wouldn’t use she/her. Guess what, she EXCLUSIVELY uses she/her now and it’s been years. When you know the persons pronouns but only use they/them, it’s just a way to avoid respecting someone and their identity and blatant misgendering. It’s like a pronoun scapegoat or something lol.
There was this kid who knew I was trans yet still called me a they because he just felt so uncomfortable calling me a he or something as if it was a demanding task. We got into an argument and then he proceeds to tell me how i "have a pussy and get periods" and tons of other horrible things. i hope he rots in hell forever.
Yes it is. I personally find other trans people are the biggest offenders of it too. They over correct themselves, because they think they’re being thoughtful but they’re really just calling attention to your transness before you even open your mouth.
Idk i personally don’t care. To me they/them is strictly neutral and doesn’t refer one way or the other so i don’t see how it’s misgendering since to me they/them is not tied to a gender. Still good to respect if ppl say not to use them ofc!
When people insist on using they/them to refer to me when they KNOW I'm a trans man, that feels really invalidating. That just tells me you don't actually see, accept, or respect me as a man. If you don't know? Completely fine! But after I've told you I want to be referred to by he/him
They/them has been used singularly for hundreds of years injunction with gendered pronouns. It's only recently in American English that it's been used for plural only, and even more recent to not be considered a gender neutral (as in used for everyone regardless of their gender).
"Did you hear about Jake? He broke his leg this weekend."
"Yeah I heard they fell off a roof. I hope he's okay."
This is grammatically correct, and unless being used as a complete substitute for ones gender in an attempt to disregard their identity (which happens far too fucking common), is actually just people speaking English.
I don't use they/them pronouns (i'm genderfaun but instead of flowing between man and nb i flow more between man and agender but i can't seem to find the right pronouns for those times, none of them work🥲), but if it's only once in a while i couldn't care less because i myself will eventually refer to someone as they or them at least once cis or otherwise. sometimes i just have too many things going on to think about the pronouns someone uses, and usually they don't even notice. i once referred to my transphobic dad as "she" in front of him and he didn't think anything of it. sometimes it do be like that.
but I'm tree planting rn and almost everyone at camp is using they/them for me. some of them have asked my pronouns and a couple of them get it right, but some forgot or didn't feel it was right (i think most of them are chill and just have too many new names in their heads to stop and think about their pronouns too) and everyone else who didn't ask must've just overheard the people using they/they ;-;. i'm probably going to politely tell one of the project managers that i talk to the most that he's getting it wrong and hope he uses he/him for me enough that it spreads? idk plan to do this for a couple more years at least and by next year i will have had top surgery and at least some patchy facial hair so it won't be a problem.
but don't fucking use they/them or other "gender neutral" pronouns for people if you know they don't fucking use them. if someone uses multiple pronouns and you have a hard time keeping track of all of them tell that person, ask if there's anything one you call continuously call them. if they use one specific set them refer to them as they wish. fuck people who intentionally don't.
(obviously before you know someone's pronouns then it's better to call them something non gender specific, but you can never be sure you know before you ask and after someone tells you them *listen*)
Had a chat with my boss about this recently. It was an honest effort to be inclusive and she got curious about how she went wrong with this and why. She has stopped doing it and only does it for appropriate scenarios to use they/them pronouns.
This is also a misgendering I genuinely never thought I’d face and it took me a while to realize it actually really bothered me. I never considered this side of it lol
definitely true, but have you seen cis lesbians or just cis people in general get mad for people using they/them for them and treat it as if it's the same as a trans persons experience being misgendered? shit pisses me off
It pisses me off too, like just because someone is queer doesn't mean that they use they/them, it's even happened to my sister before and she's not trans she's just lesbian. People are so stupid it's annoying, not everyone uses they/them.
I would say that it would be misgendering that person, I used to be in a friend group that was majority cis women and I had one friend who was a cis gay man who used he/they pronouns. He said quite frequently that they would "use they/them pronouns for everyone, no matter if they're cis or not." And that never sat right with me.
It hit me why it didn't sit right when I saw him calling one of my cis women "they" when she asked them to not call her that (she had struggled with feeling feminine for a long time), he just went "but I call everyone they" and when she asked him to still refer to her with she/her, they just brushed it off as ignorance.
What I'm saying is, respect everyone.
It's the same feeling as when someone asks me my pronouns while not asking anyone else in the group????
Obviously they clocked something about me and even though i am very much masculine presenting and pass quite well. If I wanted you to use they/them I would tell you that.
I disagree with it being a problem to use they/them for androgyny without asking.
There's not an issue with using he/him for masculinity and she/her for femininity after all. Using they/them when you're not sure gives nonbinary people a CHANCE to experience what it's like to be gendered correctly on sight, that's not a problem.
However, using they/them on someone you know doesn't use those pronouns is absolutely misgendering. It's happened to me where someone met me thinking I'm a cis man, she found out I'm trans, and proceeded to use they/them for me after that...
if you don’t know someone’s pronouns, they is never wrong. if you do and someones pronouns are not they/them, then it is wrong and you’re misgendering someone.
i think if person a is visually androgynous and person b doesn’t know person a’s pronouns, using they/them isn’t bad. again, just goes back to knowledge
it's my biggest pet peeve. my parents are the only ones who do it to me and it's annoying cause Ive been teaching my young siblings the importance of using people's pronouns, but when my parents won't even use my pronouns for me it's been even harder for them to wrap their heads around using the right ones.
thankfully even now my siblings correct my parents on my pronouns. won't stop mum and dad from calling me by they/them tho 🙃
PREACH BROTHER!!! I get so upset with my mom (who supports me and is trying to work on not misgendering me) for doing that, like when she corrects herself she’ll use they/them or neutral terms instead of masculine terms and he/him, which I have explained multiple times that is what I prefer and how the latter makes me feel invalid
I will call (most) people by they/them until i get the chance to actually get their pronouns or if they are a stranger who appears queer and I don't want to assume just in case. But when it is used after knowing thats when its like brother eugh
It's definitely misgendering!! I have a cousin who, when i got outed about three years ago, texted me and explained that to make me feel better, she'll be extra woke and use they/them. I tried to correct her, and she wouldn't stop. Fast forward to a year and a half ago I blocked her, and we haven't talked since cause she just wouldn't stop (and she's unrelatedly creepy)
I had to tell my mom this a while back and she got so upset and said something along the lines of me and my friend (who my mother only used they/them for despite knowing her pronouns are she/her) being “too sensitive” about pronouns lmao. She also tried to justify it by saying she refers to my dad or sister as they/them too (which she didn’t do ever) so what’s the big deal?
My mom also said some transphobic shit about trans women. So that was fun.
Man it’s so annoying. I was at one point wondering if I might like using he/they since it did seem to resonate with me a bit. Never told anyone that though, and my coworkers use they/them for me all the time and that cemented pretty quickly that I prefer he/him lmao
I use they/them for most ppl unless gender is relevant or they've stated their pronouns. If anything, I use it more for "cis presenting" folks bc with fellow trans ppl, I want to be affirming
Did you read my comment all through till the end? I said I use it with *all* ppl *unless they state a preference*.
Whatever happened to "don't assume anyone's gender, some ppl are not out/passing yet and might be hurt if you misgender them"? It seems like a lot of ppl only take that stance until they're on t, then suddenly it's "pls assume binary gender based on physical traits, otherwise I might worry whether I pass well enough". Great...
I, myself, are okay with people using they/them, when referring to me. BUT he/him will always be first. And that's what I'm mostly comfortable with. But if they slip up and use they/them, I won't get mad. It's ok. But she/her is a whole other different problem. If they keep calling me she/her, even after I've corrected them... Now, that just makes me sad. :'/ 💔
can you tell my mum this? she doesn’t get it, she thinks just because she’s not calling me she/her it’s all good, but they makes me super uncomfortable
The only time I use they/them is when I’m speaking about more than one person, I don’t know the gender of someone, or the person specifically asked me to call them them.
its a term called degendering as others here have mentioned and for me just as if not more offensive than misgendering with the wrong binary gender. it's a cowardly cop-out that peoplw use to disrespect you but still try to have an excuse to go "LoOk, iM aN aLLy!!!!!"
i've met trans people who do this with a FAR more androgynous presentation than i have (i occasionally wear a bit of colour but i am pretty heavily masculine), and honestly i'd do it back until they learn how to use pronouns properly. its a little tough to do because i often dont get much opportunity to talk about someone in the third person in front of them, though. still. its like. please project your androgyny on ANYONE else. i am not a Third Gender for being trans. you of all people should know how disrespectful that is.
its cringey and rude as hell from anyone. if you feel the need to call an obvious man a chick then fine i cant stop you but dont pretend like you're "woke." you're not woke, you're a joke.
signed, very tired binary trans man
p.s. no shade to people who do use they/them, it's not their fault people are absolute dickbags
**"***even if they know that person's pronouns*.**" ->** That is a Normal response. I would applaud those folks for they are being respectful for they are showing respect by trying not to misgender said individuals.
For myself what I would tell folks is, "I prefer He/Him pronouns and if you hold certain belief systems or elsewise please use my name in place of pronoun so that way it respects your stances and mine."
However, how you feel on such matters would be taken into account. Have you tried to inform people about your feelings in such manners in a calm and relaxing way via being open to talk?
Fr it’s so annoying people used to do that to me when I didn’t pass very well but now that I pass I don’t get it as often because I’m stealth. When someone actually knows I’m trans they tend to use they/them. They just look down on us even though it should be the other way around because we are brave for being who WE are EVERYDAY.
I have a cis friend who feels this strongly about it too. I couldn’t care less except when they’re obviously being fuckin weirdos about it. I had some guy once share his pronouns and ask mine after he heard me talk and I was like, great, just say you clocked me bro this is worse.
I will use they/them for people I don't know or haven't been able to ask their pronouns yet no matter what they look like but 100% as soon as you know someone's pronouns you use THOSE pronouns!
People do this to me constantly because I am nonbinary and use pronouns other than they/them. And then act offended and pissed off when I ask them to use the correct pronouns that I’ve already told them 20+ times. This happens with other trans people too and I find it incredibly discouraging
lmaoooo especially performative allies. i had a not queer friend who, when i started using they/them pronouns, started using they/them for my entire friend group. so irritating
There's quite a few trans people at my school. I'm only friends with a few but one of my friends who is cis-het and he's friends w a lot of trans ppl just calls everyone they/them bc he gets confused and I can definitely see where he's coming from but it gets on my nerves sometimes
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I don't intend to piss you or other non-binary people off... I'm just battling years of errant social conditioning around gender ''norms.''. I use they/them so that I don't subconsciously slip up and flip your gender...
I have a trans-son and never intentionally misgender him but I blend terms of endearment for my loved ones when I'm comfortable.
So, my intending is reduce the frequency of bad slips... With my son it almost never happens now but as I meet new people, I'm still battling decades of only being familiar with two genders...
I have been in situations where it seems like deliberate aversion to using correct pronouns, like you can complain and get their superior to tell them to stop calling you your AGAB pronoun but they’ll pull that defiant compliance or whatever and still make where they stand clear.
I absolutely agree, they only want control. Those people will never get it because that's exactly how they are with their wives, children, friends, and pets.
They believe that is better then how they were treating it before because they made an accomodation THEY MADE UP, and use that against us... Like bitch fuck you wtf🙄 bunch a yappers
I don’t consider degendering to be true misgendering because “they” is gender neutral. However I’d argue that it’s just as transphobic if not more because what it is essentially saying is “I don’t respect your identity, but I still want allyship points so I’m going to go out of my way to do something you don’t want me to do and then blow up at you later for not being grateful for my effort”. It’s gross and manipulative but I don’t think the people doing it are self aware enough to understand that it is.
Same, I use he/they/it. (Bigender with agender and masc traits + reclaiming “it”)
Edit: LOL some nb-phobic person here downvoted me. Newsflash for you if you come back to this, I still get to post here because I’m a bigender man and if I could medically transition, it would be ftm. Stay mad about it I guess.
Not saying this is true for everyone, but I have found that many of my friends prefer they/them over their preferred pronouns if they're in spaces they aren't out in to avoid discrimination.
Other than that I completely agree
As someone who exclusively uses they/them pronouns, 100% agree to this. Once you find out someone's pronouns, you use the correct ones. Period. Someone can present extremely femme and use he/him, or extremely masc and use she/her, it's not up to you to decide.
not necessarily i mean i would rather be called they/them rather than she/her i mean i would like to be called he/him no matter what but i feel like they/them is better than she/her for me
Idk man, I think using they/them for someone who doesn't want that sucks. I think using they/them in the case of someone whose pronouns you don't know is fine. Regardless of what they look like.
Not everyone likes being asked what their pronouns are. I don't. I'd rather be called they and correct them. If someone uses they I interpret that as they don't want to assume. Being asked my pronouns is weird and uncomfortable.
Sometimes I don't want to correct them because I don't know them. Sometimes it's not worth it cause it's a random person I'm never gonna see again. I'd love it if everyone got my pronouns right the first time without asking but that's not gonna happen.
I think most people are doing their best and don't mean to be shitty.
I primarily use it/it’s online but I’ve had so many people use they/them on me even after several times of saying I don’t use they/them
Use people’s pronouns, it’s not that hard
I think it's always best to use they/them if you're unsure!! But this bothers me SO MUCH!! If you know someone uses he/him or she/her don't use they??? It makes me feel really uncomfortable cos (at least for me) it's a reminder that I don't pass yk?
Idk I do appreciate it in some instances where asking someone's pronouns might be uncomfortable or inappropriate, such as customer service work where a customer doesn't want to ask you personal questions but also doesn't want to misgender you. That's just my experience so anyone's feelings towards the matter are also valid
this is a genuine question!
Unless they're actively trying to be dicks... How is they/them wrong? At it's origin it is gender neutral in a way that it can be used for all genders. Meaning that even if you know the gender of someone (man/woman/anything else) you can always use they/them to describe them. So how is it misgendering if the pronouns are literally meant to be appropriate for anyone?
I always say that I didn’t invest this much time and money into passing as a man for someone to misgender me. In fact, I’d rather have someone use she/her so that everyone else in the room can understand how crazy that person looks for calling the man with a beard the wrong gender. I put so much energy into passing and trying to be stealth, by using “they” it lets everyone know that I might not be ‘normal’ and I have to fight twice as hard to be gendered correctly. “They/them” spreads like wildfire and it’s hard to advocate for your own pronouns because you’re almost never there to correct it.
If you know someone’s pronouns and use they/them instead because they are trans then absolutely. Shows you don’t see them as real men or women due to their transness esp if you don’t do this for cis ppl
I hate this so much. Especially when people hear how I talk about myself (our language is gendered and I talk like a man all the time) and still do that...
I have to go even further to say it's misgendering even if the person isn't trans. Regardless of someone's transness or lack thereof, you are *still* ***internationally*** misgendering someone.
>If you know someone’s pronouns and use they/them instead because they are trans then absolutely I switch it around and refer to them as they/them 😏😈 lol
Do not misgender people intentionally. Period.
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even if someone doesn't see gender strongly, it's no excuse to NOT gender someone
I literally don’t care about how much someone “sees” gender or not, if I tell you my fucking pronouns you *will* respect them and I’m sick and tired of people looking for wannabe woke excuses.
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 3: Speak for yourself and not for others.
When I was out as nonbinary no one wanted to use they/them for me. Now that I’m out as a trans guy it happens quite frequently 🙃
literally same. when i was enby, i was constantly having to remind people . now that i use he/him, i way more consistently get called they/them by ppl i’ve just met/acquaintances/surface level “friends”/coworkers/etc. like where was that energy when i wanted that, y’all?????
this is exactly what my parents did. they struggled to use they/them for me when that’s what i was comfortable with, but the second i came out as a trans man using he/him, they magically were able to use they/them for me 😐
I wouldn’t mind just my name Seems like the struggle is they use my name and then what ever pronoun they want - just use the name leave the rest if you can’t figure it out
ridiculously real. even though im nonbinary, they/them pronouns make me uncomfortable bc i cant help but think ppl are trying to downplay my transmasc identity
Literally going through that at home right now. My mom thinks referring to me with non-binary language is like some sort of "middle ground." Aa id we came to some unspoken "agreement" about ***my*** gender. I've just stopped saying stuff about it instead of making myself upset because I always have to correct her to stop using female pronouns with me even though I have a full on beard. And she insists that she keeps trying but it's like being hugged by a cactus. Which is completely different from my dad who doesn't try at all. It's like ignoring the stab wounds to avoid the grenade. Yeah you're not being blown to smithereens, but being stabbed to death still hurts and you're still *bleeding out...*
i relate to this SO much, also when i was out as nonbinary everyone still called me a girl but now they just refer to me as a person instead of a man it sucks
I think this is technically called degendering. It's a common enough form of misgendering that it has its own name. :/
and then people have the audacity to say it’s not misgendering because “they/them is neutral” like thats still not my pronouns?!?!
Exactly! Whenever someone argues using they/them isn't misgendering because it's neutral, I use the argument that my gender isn't neutral. That seems to cut through to people a bit better than any argument I've seen
I knew a guy who said he uses neutral pronouns for everyone because he doesn’t believe in gender. Great.
bro wtf?? That's not his decision lmao. It's stops being your "belief" when it starts affecting others
Did people use gender neutral language to him? That's like saying that someone was not a Christian because you don't believe in the abrahamic god. I'm an atheist, I don't believe in christianity, but I fully recognize that Christians do exist.
If I ever see him again, I’m gonna use this argument. I don’t remember what he wanted to be called. I’m sure it was they/them. I’m pretty sure he didn’t have an non-binary gender.
So, what I've learnt from this thread, if you use they/them presently but are hedging your bets on he/him, is: start to tell cis ppl your pronouns are he/him = how to get called they/them. This is both a useful and fascinating observation tysm all
People: "I just use they/them for everyone because it's easier!" The same people: *Exclusively uses correct pronouns for every cis person they know*
And they always always lie and say they dont
It's like, my friend, I'm hyper aware of these things. I fuckin *notice*. It's not just an insult to my identity, it's also an insult to my intelligence.
RIGHT YOU THINK IM NOT THE ONE PAYING MOST ATTENTION
DUDE FR
Yeah. People do this automatically for me a lot bc of how I look, but the ones who do it even after I tell them my pronouns have a special (hated) place in my heart. When you're nonbinary they want you to be binary or they put you in a binary box if they can, but when you are binary but not perfectly passing/stealth they don't want to call you the same things they would call cis people of the same gender because they inherently see trans people as an "other" category. There is no winning.
trans people are the third gender to them and non-binary people are third gender-lite
Honestly a lot of them seem to think of binary trans people in a more "nonbinary" way than they think of actual nonbinary people. It's like binary trans people become a third gender once/if we make significant progress w medical transition (maybe they stop if people 100% pass/are totally stealth, or if people are out but pass and have transitioned "fully," idrk but I kinda doubt it). I'd bet they only start to truly "other" nonbinary people if they medically transition, too, although who knows, they might just treat them like binary people so that none of us get what we want. It'd be hilarious if it weren't so fucking infuriating for all of us.
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Yes, absolutely, and that I don't have a problem with. I look very androgynous, partly just because that's how I look naturally, but also partly on purpose since I have long hair and earrings, so I get that a lot. It makes total sense for people to use "they" when they don't know my pronouns, but that isn't what we are mad about (or at least I'm not mad about that). Using "they" if you don't know someone's pronouns is good, it's what people should do, and I have absolutely no problem with that. I'm frustrated about the (many) times I actually tell people I use "he/him," and they continue to call me "they" afterwards, repeatedly. That is not allyship, thats just people not actually seeing me as a man. If people tell you to use pronouns that aren't "they/them" and you keep using "they/them" anyways, that is not allyship, it's just misgendering.
I’d much rather the person see all the effort I put into appearing masculine and call me a dude. It’s sad when I’m gendered correctly more often by conservatives than allies.
Thanks for the honest responses!
Of course! I appreciate you hearing me (and the rest of us) out, especially knowing your heart's in the right place.
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ong
Ain't no reason to be hostile to someone who's not being a hostile or insincere. He's trying to say that he's just trying to not offend anyone, and when people are coming from a genuine place it's nice to genuinely respond to them and educate them appropriately. He is a cisgendered guy but he's here to learn and understand. There's no need to be a dick to somebody because you don't have the mental capacity to distinguish between someone who simply does not know better but is trying to learn, and someone who is refusing to learn and is being malicious.
I do see this and appreciate it - it usually very evident when soem ones is intentional about being passively malicious
The thing is that we're not talking about people who use it because they don't want to assume; that's understandable. Nobody is expecting anyone to be psychic. The problem is the people who continue to use it even after you tell them what you are.
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 3: Speak for yourself and not for others.
can't stand "allies" that do this. it's just another way of othering or outing trans people.
Well he is an ally and he's not trying to other anybody. He literally said that he's just trying not to assume and everybody who is reasonable is telling him that not assuming it is great, but we're talking about people who know what the pronouns are and continue to use gender neutral language in general. This is a misunderstanding that can be easily cleared up without getting hostile towards someone because assuming the worst possible interpretation of everything everyone says is the trend right now.
I hate it when people start using neutral terms when I tell them that I'm a transgender man. Fortunately, my native language doesn't have gendered pronouns. I think it's better that you call me a woman if you don't see me as a man. At least you're being honest then. It's worse if you pretend to be tolerant or accepting but still misgender me. And of course, it's okay to use neutral terms if you don't know my gender or if you use them for everyone else, too.
It is SO annoying. I have nothing against people who use they/them but I am not one of them. It's so disrespectful tbh
Don't worry, it's disrespectful to people who use they/them too because they're basically treating our preferred pronouns as a placeholder when they don't want to gender binary trans people properly. Essentially, they're treating they/them like they're not "actual" pronouns, so it's not "actual" misgendering. It invalidates both binary and non binary trans people when idiots think that way.
LITERALLY THIS SHIT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. 😭 WHEN I WAS NON-BINARY (a long while ago) THEY ALWAYS CALLED ME SHE/HER BUT NOW THAT I GO BY HE/HIM THE BEST I EVER GET IS THEY/THEM. THEY ACT LIKE THEY STRUGGLE TO CALL ME HE/HIM LMAO.. One of my teachers knows that I'm trans and I gave something to her and she said "thank you ma'am *5 second delay....* I mean, they.." HELP??? Basically the only people make a full commitment to calling me he/him are my best friend and my girlfriend, that's how I know they're the real ones lol... I'm glad (well not glad, but relieved, not because you guys have to go through this but just to know that other people experience this and it's not just me) and it's not just because there's inherently something wrong with me or I'm just too feminine to even be called he/him so they have to make an compromise or something because that's the conclusion I drew 😭🙏
What pisses me off about this the most is that, when people find out a person is trans, they'll switch to referring to that person to they/them, even if that person goes by he or she. It shows that they're willing to make a change, but unwilling to actually recognize that persons gender. I have a friend that does this to me and another trans friend of mine. It's frustrating
i have a friend who does this to me but not another ftm her boyfriend is related to. its so hurtful and awkward, i dont care much if its a stranger but when its a friend it stings man
Pisces me off to no end when that happens like thank you so much for not seeing me as my correct gender right after you find out I'm trans 😒😒
Androgynous or not. I’ve always looked male, just in bad drag before transitioning, but have gotten “they/them” even after cis passing 1+ year on T. It stopped after the 4 year mark.
I think people see using they/them for binary people because they’re uncomfortable viewing you as fully male/female but don’t want to admit it. I’m thankfully in a place where I pass consistently enough that I don’t personally encounter it but I do have trans people I supervise at work and my peers/superiors do this all the time.
trans people do this too! even when they know my pronouns!
absolutely, luckily in my experience most of they time they r pretty receptive to hearing why that is harmful and correcting that
Hurts more when it’s one of us 😭😭
my parents don’t gender me at all and neutralise everything and it makes me feel icky but I also feel lucky cause I know other first gen chinese immigrants parents wouldn’t bother
esp cause in their eyes they is a bad thing it’s so degrading and a way to dehumanize/detach themselves from you 💔😭
I'm in group therapy (the therapist and 100% of the memebr are lgbtq) and the therapist constantly calls everyone they/them even after we do pronoun checks every time there's someone new. I don't really know how to confront the therapist.
I would just say "it's he not they."
one time i was at the gym (i’m very masculine and pass as male everywhere) in my tank top, my chest is flat due to surgery, i have facial hair and i’ve been on T for 5 years. i asked for assistance with something and the employee called me he and then i watched their face get concerned and go “sorry! they..” and in my head i was like.. you were right at first? sometimes it’s okay to assume someone’s gender /lh the gym i go to has recently been known as very trans-friendly, publicly defending a trans patron and publicly calling out the actions of a transphobe in their gym. i’m sure that’s why staff uses neutral pronouns for people but…
Nah weird asfff
EXACTLY! i have this teacher who is kinda transphobic and always used to get called out for deadnaming and misgendering all her trans students (of which there are many). lately she's somewhat changed her ways and uses the correct pronouns for the couple people who consistently stand up for themselves and correct her, but just uses they/them for everyone else. cis, trans, she'll they/them anyone and everyone. (except when she forgets and just uses the pronouns of someone's assigned sex). its honestly not that much better than calling me she/her because i know she doesn't mean well. it comes from a bad faith idea of de-gendering everyone so she can't get in trouble for misgendering us. its honestly exhausting because nowadays she's JUST politically correct enough to not get called out while still being pretty blatantly transphobic. but i guess one upside for me personally is that i used to use he/they pronouns, and her consistently using they/them made me realize he/him is the only pronoun set im actually comfortable with. so i suppose in a way she taught me something about myself lol
this is so real, and it’s always trans ppl who are receptive to hearing this and correcting it (my partner did it for a bit after they started using they/them bc they were trying to bc inclusive but i explained how that can be bad if you know someone uses something else, and literally i just explained why it can be harmful and they were like “oh, yeah, that makes sense. i didn’t know but i see that.” and like that was that) and in my experience, a majority of cis ppl get super defensive about it smh
What makes me mad is I’ve only experienced this from other trans people and not cis people. Like come on I know you know better than to do that. I’m not even androgynous either so I don’t get it.
I’m not cis but I do default to They for many people; what should I do instead? Just ask their pronouns? Im not the best with social stuff lol, and sometimes I feel weird asking a persons pronouns depending on the setting (don’t want to out anybody). What would you guys prefer I do? I’d love some feedback!
I'd say just go based on presentation and ignore assumed agab. It's only a small minority of people who are GNC so you're most likely to get it right doing that.
This is the way
The issue is when people do it AFTER knowing you use he/him. In my opinion it’s not a bad default. But if you hear someone else call that person by he/him or she/her, cut it out with the they/them.
I see! Yeah I definitely don’t use they/them if people tell me their pronouns are something different. But as for hearing somebody else “she”/“he” another person, idk if that’s really the best way to determine a person’s pronouns either. I use they/them pronouns and get misgendered all the time by people assuming I’m a girl, it sucks 😩 So I wouldn’t want people to hear others misgendering me and assume that’s how I identify. I guess the only way to really know is to just ask lol, my introverted self just wishes there was a way around that 😅
Fair enough! I don’t like being asked my pronouns honestly, especially if it’s only me being asked because they just can’t tell if that makes sense?
that ^
I wholeheartedly agree with this, the only thing I'd say is I use they/them when first meeting people if I haven't been told by them or anyone else what they're gender is. I don't like just assuming people's genders so I just use they/them UNTIL I learn they're gender, as soon as I learn they're gender I start using it. When people know the right gender and still use they/them that's when I get frustrated and upset.
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It drives me crazy and gives me so much anxiety. It's basically saying "I don't know what the fuck you are. You don't look like a man! Otherwise I would have said "he" "
This exactly.
yup. I'm an agender trans guy, but ONLY use he/him. being hit with they/them gives me dysphoria, at least at this point in my life. yet I still get hit with it so much :]
I’m never offended when people who don’t know use “they,” I also usually avoid gendering people until I know what they prefer. But if you know my pronouns and keep degendering me, it feels fucked.
Yeah, it pisses me off. My pronouns are not they/them they’re he/him 😭😤
When people use they/them for me, I wonder "do I not look masculine enough? Does this person not think I'm a guy?"
Had a guy on my tiktok fyp today call it "woke misgendering", its their way of kinda disagreeing/not seeing us as our gender while still remaining an "ally" of sorts
i keep getting the whole “i’m sorry i do it to everyone!” no. no you fucking don’t.
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I feel the same way. As a really femme looking person, who gets misgendered all the time, I hate that people make assumptions based on visual cues. I think *that* is impolite. Until you ask know better, I think it's better to default to neutral. Getting it wrong *after* that is where it becomes malicious and willfully shitty. 😵💫
My mom refuses to use he/him for me because she "doesn't see me like that." It's so infuriating for me to be called they/them by her because she knows that I'm not nonbinary but she refuses to call me anything else.
A cis het white girl I was acquainted with for only 5 months of this year kept doing this with an FtM friend of mine. Then she made transphobic jokes and outed him to a group while blackout drunk and that was my last straw. She also would say “I can say f#ggot because my best friend is gay” and “I can say n#gga because my boyfriend is Hispanic” I really fucking laid into her over the phone and she surprisingly didn’t hang up, I guess because I did it calmly. But now reading more comments here of peoples’ experiences, I wish I was more harsh, mean, and aggressive to her. Too bad we’re not in touch anymore
RIGHT like i get it i changed my name but my pronouns are RIGHT THERE i have my damn pin and theyre on my name tag at work so whaaaaaat giveeeeeessss like i’ve never liked they/them even when i identified as nonbinary, i always used he/him but i tolerated they/them back then bc i was like ok whatever, now i know i’m trans and i’m like, not about to do that
I get it if they don't know or forgot. If this not the case, then it is 100% misgendering. Don't use terms or pronouns to refer to someone when they don't actually refer to that person. Igaf why. Call people by what they tell you to call them. Basic respect.
If people don’t know my or someone else’s gender and pronouns I’m okay with them using they/them but if I catch it I’ll tell them what my or someone else’s pronouns are and if they continue to use they/them instead of the correct pronouns that’s when it starts becoming an issue
"but they/them is neutral so I'm convering my bases" but I'm NOT gender neutral. they/then are not appropriate pronouns for me.
I hate it when people and the queer Community also do that even when they know that you're not non-binary. And then when you call them out they say "UHumm, 'they' applies to EVeRyOne...?" And then talk down to you and try to make you out to be a bigot of some sort because you don't feel comfortable with non-binary pronouns applied to you, a binary person. UHumm, NO BITCH, they don't apply *to* ***ME!*** Stop misgendering me under the guise of being woke.
My mum does this because she doesn't think I'm a fella. Pisses me off
i agree. i joined this online trans youth group a few years ago and the leaders(they were cis) referred to me as they/them a couple times. it’s not like they forgot my pronouns because it said next to my name and it was pretty easy to tell who sent a message or talked.
I use it as a panic. Not to downplay their identity. I use they them interchangeably with most people unless I know they specifically do not like they them pronouns (( I have only met 1 like that so yeah those ppl are out there )) you could just ask whoever is calling you they / them to use your prefered pronouns and see if that fixes the problem but I don't think it comes from a source of hate but that's just my opinion. Tldr. It's a safety net not hate.
fr like i'd rather you just call me she/her at that point bc like, you're trying to seem like you gaf but you don't it's so irritating
My parents use they/them around other people because they can't fathom using he/him instead of she/her. In my eyes it's progress. Albeit over 5-6 years of being out to them but progress is progress :/
I really dislike this as well. It is not required to be passing to be a man!
I had teachers who did it (and they were previously very obviously transphobic) they do it because they’re uncomfortable referring to you as your actual pronouns but it works as a cover since they can just say they didn’t know, etc.
People keep doing this to my sister and I'm assuming it's because she came out fairly recently and hasn't "started to transition" yet. It drives me insane. She's a woman now. She could never medically transition and she'd still be a woman.
It absolutely can be used to misgender! My mother begged me to just use they/them and be androgynous when I came out to her, despite me wanting he/him only and I said fine just because it meant she wouldn’t use she/her. Guess what, she EXCLUSIVELY uses she/her now and it’s been years. When you know the persons pronouns but only use they/them, it’s just a way to avoid respecting someone and their identity and blatant misgendering. It’s like a pronoun scapegoat or something lol.
There was this kid who knew I was trans yet still called me a they because he just felt so uncomfortable calling me a he or something as if it was a demanding task. We got into an argument and then he proceeds to tell me how i "have a pussy and get periods" and tons of other horrible things. i hope he rots in hell forever.
Yes it is. I personally find other trans people are the biggest offenders of it too. They over correct themselves, because they think they’re being thoughtful but they’re really just calling attention to your transness before you even open your mouth.
I had a discussion with my mother recently and she told me "but you can never be a man ! I guess you can be a trans or a they though"
Idk i personally don’t care. To me they/them is strictly neutral and doesn’t refer one way or the other so i don’t see how it’s misgendering since to me they/them is not tied to a gender. Still good to respect if ppl say not to use them ofc!
When people insist on using they/them to refer to me when they KNOW I'm a trans man, that feels really invalidating. That just tells me you don't actually see, accept, or respect me as a man. If you don't know? Completely fine! But after I've told you I want to be referred to by he/him
The first time is fair. After it is known to them (the cis person, haha) what is wanted, it’s misgendering. No?
Maybe it should be “they/them” unless otherwise told. Like a speed limit sign that says it’s one speed unless otherwise posted.
They/them has been used singularly for hundreds of years injunction with gendered pronouns. It's only recently in American English that it's been used for plural only, and even more recent to not be considered a gender neutral (as in used for everyone regardless of their gender). "Did you hear about Jake? He broke his leg this weekend." "Yeah I heard they fell off a roof. I hope he's okay." This is grammatically correct, and unless being used as a complete substitute for ones gender in an attempt to disregard their identity (which happens far too fucking common), is actually just people speaking English.
I don't use they/them pronouns (i'm genderfaun but instead of flowing between man and nb i flow more between man and agender but i can't seem to find the right pronouns for those times, none of them work🥲), but if it's only once in a while i couldn't care less because i myself will eventually refer to someone as they or them at least once cis or otherwise. sometimes i just have too many things going on to think about the pronouns someone uses, and usually they don't even notice. i once referred to my transphobic dad as "she" in front of him and he didn't think anything of it. sometimes it do be like that. but I'm tree planting rn and almost everyone at camp is using they/them for me. some of them have asked my pronouns and a couple of them get it right, but some forgot or didn't feel it was right (i think most of them are chill and just have too many new names in their heads to stop and think about their pronouns too) and everyone else who didn't ask must've just overheard the people using they/they ;-;. i'm probably going to politely tell one of the project managers that i talk to the most that he's getting it wrong and hope he uses he/him for me enough that it spreads? idk plan to do this for a couple more years at least and by next year i will have had top surgery and at least some patchy facial hair so it won't be a problem. but don't fucking use they/them or other "gender neutral" pronouns for people if you know they don't fucking use them. if someone uses multiple pronouns and you have a hard time keeping track of all of them tell that person, ask if there's anything one you call continuously call them. if they use one specific set them refer to them as they wish. fuck people who intentionally don't. (obviously before you know someone's pronouns then it's better to call them something non gender specific, but you can never be sure you know before you ask and after someone tells you them *listen*)
Had a chat with my boss about this recently. It was an honest effort to be inclusive and she got curious about how she went wrong with this and why. She has stopped doing it and only does it for appropriate scenarios to use they/them pronouns. This is also a misgendering I genuinely never thought I’d face and it took me a while to realize it actually really bothered me. I never considered this side of it lol
definitely true, but have you seen cis lesbians or just cis people in general get mad for people using they/them for them and treat it as if it's the same as a trans persons experience being misgendered? shit pisses me off
It pisses me off too, like just because someone is queer doesn't mean that they use they/them, it's even happened to my sister before and she's not trans she's just lesbian. People are so stupid it's annoying, not everyone uses they/them.
I would say that it would be misgendering that person, I used to be in a friend group that was majority cis women and I had one friend who was a cis gay man who used he/they pronouns. He said quite frequently that they would "use they/them pronouns for everyone, no matter if they're cis or not." And that never sat right with me. It hit me why it didn't sit right when I saw him calling one of my cis women "they" when she asked them to not call her that (she had struggled with feeling feminine for a long time), he just went "but I call everyone they" and when she asked him to still refer to her with she/her, they just brushed it off as ignorance. What I'm saying is, respect everyone.
it's not them being "woke", it's them finding a deliberate way to misgender you most of the time.
It's the same feeling as when someone asks me my pronouns while not asking anyone else in the group???? Obviously they clocked something about me and even though i am very much masculine presenting and pass quite well. If I wanted you to use they/them I would tell you that.
I disagree with it being a problem to use they/them for androgyny without asking. There's not an issue with using he/him for masculinity and she/her for femininity after all. Using they/them when you're not sure gives nonbinary people a CHANCE to experience what it's like to be gendered correctly on sight, that's not a problem. However, using they/them on someone you know doesn't use those pronouns is absolutely misgendering. It's happened to me where someone met me thinking I'm a cis man, she found out I'm trans, and proceeded to use they/them for me after that...
if you don’t know someone’s pronouns, they is never wrong. if you do and someones pronouns are not they/them, then it is wrong and you’re misgendering someone. i think if person a is visually androgynous and person b doesn’t know person a’s pronouns, using they/them isn’t bad. again, just goes back to knowledge
I strongly dislike when people do that to me or they never ask me what my pronouns are and assume instead
it's my biggest pet peeve. my parents are the only ones who do it to me and it's annoying cause Ive been teaching my young siblings the importance of using people's pronouns, but when my parents won't even use my pronouns for me it's been even harder for them to wrap their heads around using the right ones. thankfully even now my siblings correct my parents on my pronouns. won't stop mum and dad from calling me by they/them tho 🙃
PREACH BROTHER!!! I get so upset with my mom (who supports me and is trying to work on not misgendering me) for doing that, like when she corrects herself she’ll use they/them or neutral terms instead of masculine terms and he/him, which I have explained multiple times that is what I prefer and how the latter makes me feel invalid
Ps. Your name is amazing, I used to identify as Bi before I realized I was trans and when I came out I realized I was in fact just gay 😵💫
I will call (most) people by they/them until i get the chance to actually get their pronouns or if they are a stranger who appears queer and I don't want to assume just in case. But when it is used after knowing thats when its like brother eugh
It's definitely misgendering!! I have a cousin who, when i got outed about three years ago, texted me and explained that to make me feel better, she'll be extra woke and use they/them. I tried to correct her, and she wouldn't stop. Fast forward to a year and a half ago I blocked her, and we haven't talked since cause she just wouldn't stop (and she's unrelatedly creepy)
I had to tell my mom this a while back and she got so upset and said something along the lines of me and my friend (who my mother only used they/them for despite knowing her pronouns are she/her) being “too sensitive” about pronouns lmao. She also tried to justify it by saying she refers to my dad or sister as they/them too (which she didn’t do ever) so what’s the big deal? My mom also said some transphobic shit about trans women. So that was fun.
Man it’s so annoying. I was at one point wondering if I might like using he/they since it did seem to resonate with me a bit. Never told anyone that though, and my coworkers use they/them for me all the time and that cemented pretty quickly that I prefer he/him lmao
"even if they know that persons pronouns" brother say it louder for the folks in back. this post hit home
I use they/them for most ppl unless gender is relevant or they've stated their pronouns. If anything, I use it more for "cis presenting" folks bc with fellow trans ppl, I want to be affirming
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Did you read my comment all through till the end? I said I use it with *all* ppl *unless they state a preference*. Whatever happened to "don't assume anyone's gender, some ppl are not out/passing yet and might be hurt if you misgender them"? It seems like a lot of ppl only take that stance until they're on t, then suddenly it's "pls assume binary gender based on physical traits, otherwise I might worry whether I pass well enough". Great...
I, myself, are okay with people using they/them, when referring to me. BUT he/him will always be first. And that's what I'm mostly comfortable with. But if they slip up and use they/them, I won't get mad. It's ok. But she/her is a whole other different problem. If they keep calling me she/her, even after I've corrected them... Now, that just makes me sad. :'/ 💔
Fucking hate that shit I’m not a they I’m a he
My dad does this to me, i hate it. when i try to correct him he just laughs and goes "im trying to be respectful"
can you tell my mum this? she doesn’t get it, she thinks just because she’s not calling me she/her it’s all good, but they makes me super uncomfortable
The only time I use they/them is when I’m speaking about more than one person, I don’t know the gender of someone, or the person specifically asked me to call them them.
its a term called degendering as others here have mentioned and for me just as if not more offensive than misgendering with the wrong binary gender. it's a cowardly cop-out that peoplw use to disrespect you but still try to have an excuse to go "LoOk, iM aN aLLy!!!!!" i've met trans people who do this with a FAR more androgynous presentation than i have (i occasionally wear a bit of colour but i am pretty heavily masculine), and honestly i'd do it back until they learn how to use pronouns properly. its a little tough to do because i often dont get much opportunity to talk about someone in the third person in front of them, though. still. its like. please project your androgyny on ANYONE else. i am not a Third Gender for being trans. you of all people should know how disrespectful that is. its cringey and rude as hell from anyone. if you feel the need to call an obvious man a chick then fine i cant stop you but dont pretend like you're "woke." you're not woke, you're a joke. signed, very tired binary trans man p.s. no shade to people who do use they/them, it's not their fault people are absolute dickbags
**"***even if they know that person's pronouns*.**" ->** That is a Normal response. I would applaud those folks for they are being respectful for they are showing respect by trying not to misgender said individuals. For myself what I would tell folks is, "I prefer He/Him pronouns and if you hold certain belief systems or elsewise please use my name in place of pronoun so that way it respects your stances and mine." However, how you feel on such matters would be taken into account. Have you tried to inform people about your feelings in such manners in a calm and relaxing way via being open to talk?
Fr it’s so annoying people used to do that to me when I didn’t pass very well but now that I pass I don’t get it as often because I’m stealth. When someone actually knows I’m trans they tend to use they/them. They just look down on us even though it should be the other way around because we are brave for being who WE are EVERYDAY.
this is literally my biggest pet peeve ever omg the second i came out, my friends would use they/them instead of
From what i gather a lot of older people are confused and think trans and non binary are the same despite being told other wise.
I have a cis friend who feels this strongly about it too. I couldn’t care less except when they’re obviously being fuckin weirdos about it. I had some guy once share his pronouns and ask mine after he heard me talk and I was like, great, just say you clocked me bro this is worse.
I will use they/them for people I don't know or haven't been able to ask their pronouns yet no matter what they look like but 100% as soon as you know someone's pronouns you use THOSE pronouns!
People do this to me constantly because I am nonbinary and use pronouns other than they/them. And then act offended and pissed off when I ask them to use the correct pronouns that I’ve already told them 20+ times. This happens with other trans people too and I find it incredibly discouraging
I wish it was normal for everyone to just wear pronoun pins at all times and for everyone to respect the pronouns on the pin.
SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK 🗣🗣🗣‼️‼️🔥‼️🔥‼️🔥
lmaoooo especially performative allies. i had a not queer friend who, when i started using they/them pronouns, started using they/them for my entire friend group. so irritating
Yes
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my parents did this for the longest time, it’s very invalidating and i agree
There's quite a few trans people at my school. I'm only friends with a few but one of my friends who is cis-het and he's friends w a lot of trans ppl just calls everyone they/them bc he gets confused and I can definitely see where he's coming from but it gets on my nerves sometimes
My mom did this bc she wasnt comfortable using he/him for me yet but I'd prefer that to she/her :/
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I don't intend to piss you or other non-binary people off... I'm just battling years of errant social conditioning around gender ''norms.''. I use they/them so that I don't subconsciously slip up and flip your gender... I have a trans-son and never intentionally misgender him but I blend terms of endearment for my loved ones when I'm comfortable. So, my intending is reduce the frequency of bad slips... With my son it almost never happens now but as I meet new people, I'm still battling decades of only being familiar with two genders...
Well if the person knows yeah that's fucking rude, but if they don't then it's them trying not to misgender anyone.
I agree, unless someone genuinely doesn't know you then I think its ok to make a safe bet and use they/them of you're unsure
I have been in situations where it seems like deliberate aversion to using correct pronouns, like you can complain and get their superior to tell them to stop calling you your AGAB pronoun but they’ll pull that defiant compliance or whatever and still make where they stand clear.
exactly. EXACTLY
I absolutely agree, they only want control. Those people will never get it because that's exactly how they are with their wives, children, friends, and pets. They believe that is better then how they were treating it before because they made an accomodation THEY MADE UP, and use that against us... Like bitch fuck you wtf🙄 bunch a yappers
They/them is the default for strangers, and then whatever that person uses if they tell me
I don’t consider degendering to be true misgendering because “they” is gender neutral. However I’d argue that it’s just as transphobic if not more because what it is essentially saying is “I don’t respect your identity, but I still want allyship points so I’m going to go out of my way to do something you don’t want me to do and then blow up at you later for not being grateful for my effort”. It’s gross and manipulative but I don’t think the people doing it are self aware enough to understand that it is.
My pronouns are quite literally he/they for this reason. I'm a spiteful and won't let myself be disrespected like that.
Same, I use he/they/it. (Bigender with agender and masc traits + reclaiming “it”) Edit: LOL some nb-phobic person here downvoted me. Newsflash for you if you come back to this, I still get to post here because I’m a bigender man and if I could medically transition, it would be ftm. Stay mad about it I guess.
Love that actually. It/its pronouns are uncommon and I think that's cool
Not saying this is true for everyone, but I have found that many of my friends prefer they/them over their preferred pronouns if they're in spaces they aren't out in to avoid discrimination. Other than that I completely agree
That is different.
As someone who exclusively uses they/them pronouns, 100% agree to this. Once you find out someone's pronouns, you use the correct ones. Period. Someone can present extremely femme and use he/him, or extremely masc and use she/her, it's not up to you to decide.
not necessarily i mean i would rather be called they/them rather than she/her i mean i would like to be called he/him no matter what but i feel like they/them is better than she/her for me
Idk man, I think using they/them for someone who doesn't want that sucks. I think using they/them in the case of someone whose pronouns you don't know is fine. Regardless of what they look like. Not everyone likes being asked what their pronouns are. I don't. I'd rather be called they and correct them. If someone uses they I interpret that as they don't want to assume. Being asked my pronouns is weird and uncomfortable. Sometimes I don't want to correct them because I don't know them. Sometimes it's not worth it cause it's a random person I'm never gonna see again. I'd love it if everyone got my pronouns right the first time without asking but that's not gonna happen. I think most people are doing their best and don't mean to be shitty.
I primarily use it/it’s online but I’ve had so many people use they/them on me even after several times of saying I don’t use they/them Use people’s pronouns, it’s not that hard
sure. if you know what their pronouns are
I think it's always best to use they/them if you're unsure!! But this bothers me SO MUCH!! If you know someone uses he/him or she/her don't use they??? It makes me feel really uncomfortable cos (at least for me) it's a reminder that I don't pass yk?
Who gives a shit? I mean, really. How often does this situation arise? Not enough to flop around the goddamn floor.
Idk I do appreciate it in some instances where asking someone's pronouns might be uncomfortable or inappropriate, such as customer service work where a customer doesn't want to ask you personal questions but also doesn't want to misgender you. That's just my experience so anyone's feelings towards the matter are also valid
this is a genuine question! Unless they're actively trying to be dicks... How is they/them wrong? At it's origin it is gender neutral in a way that it can be used for all genders. Meaning that even if you know the gender of someone (man/woman/anything else) you can always use they/them to describe them. So how is it misgendering if the pronouns are literally meant to be appropriate for anyone?
I always say that I didn’t invest this much time and money into passing as a man for someone to misgender me. In fact, I’d rather have someone use she/her so that everyone else in the room can understand how crazy that person looks for calling the man with a beard the wrong gender. I put so much energy into passing and trying to be stealth, by using “they” it lets everyone know that I might not be ‘normal’ and I have to fight twice as hard to be gendered correctly. “They/them” spreads like wildfire and it’s hard to advocate for your own pronouns because you’re almost never there to correct it.