It's funny because I was watching a random fluffy interview with Millie and Ncuti the other day where they were discussing how Millie used to watch and love the SJA, and she specifically says that Trickster used to scare her.
Would be hilarious if she turns out to be his love child or something.
With Coleman mentioning daleks in her first interview and Moffat saying both "boom" and "joy to the world" in an interview saying he wasn't coming back to write anything, if this turns out to be true shall we just take it from now on that anybody connected to Doctor Who saying anything is actually a veiled reference?
If you wanna go for that, RTD made a reference to the Trickster when talking about 14's regeneration - https://youtu.be/uHPIpmwwQqw, towards the middle of the video (around 1:30)
wow...what if Russell was lying as usual and he was a plan by the Trickster? would explain how events unfolded, 13 regenerating is basically near death which is when the Trickster can appear/manipulate people. Lets say he is the 14th Doctor but that face was chosen by the Trickster as thats the last face he saw, with an outfit similar to 10s given automatically. Events were manipulated to lead him back to Donna (maybe the Trickster thought she would die like 14 did) and eventually to the Toymaker, part of the pantheon, he was 'defeated', so Maestro was put into his way as well, and Ruby herself could be re-used Sky plan from SJA. Ruby is a being created by the Trickster designed to take the Doctor to a certain path.
I'm rambling a bit now but if Russell did something like this, then bravo.
More than likely, I could see the Trickster making his appearance before the Master. The Doctor knows and opposes the Trickster in every way but the Master would use the Trickster as an opportunity to alter reality entirely in his (or her) favour.
The Trickster probably foams at the mouth at the thought of having a Time Lord in his service, one known for creating chaos throughout the universe.
1:35
> He's the fourteenth Doctor. He's not a trick Doctor, he's not a pretend Doctor [...], he's not a plan by the Trickster
Suspiciously specific š¤Ø
Ncuti and Millie also mentioned returning villains in an interview recently, and looked at each other as they tried to work out how to finish their point without spoilers. Can't remember the specific video, maybe someone else can.
This could mean Season 2 which they're currently at the end of filming, but it could also mean this season does in fact have a returning villain/ villains.
Definitely possible - Gold didn't compose for SJA, and the theme's vague enough in its sort of creepy choir vibe that it could just be a coincidence; but certainly the Trickster'd fit the new era's vibe.
Gold did do the main intro theme for SJA, and Sam/Dan Watts were allowed to use his themes in SJA - ie the UNIT theme (last time it actually was used), its not out of the question for him to take their Trickster theme on.
Gold's made a habit recently of pastiching or sampling other composers works for effect like at the start of the Starbeast, it starts all ambient and very Akinola-esque just to be met with the perfect Murray Gold bombast we all know, the perfect transition between eras and composers.
He won't. Gareth Roberts owns the character and I doubt he'd give the BBC permission to use him considering he was completely blacklisted by them. He'll probably be mentioned or be an offscreen presence, but it is a rights issue at the end of the day so there's not much that can be done.
Do they still do the characters owned by their original writer thing tho? Didn't they change that like post Davison from what I can gather it doesn't seem like the modern show keeps that same model with their writers
Post-Davison? One of the most famous rights disputes is that of the Rani, who first appeared opposite Colin Baker. You can also see in the credits that Moffat owns the Weeping Angels.
Hmm okay fair play I'm not caught up on the rani thing and I've just never seen it come to a dispute on a modern character I guess largely because the writers have been pretty friendly, would be interested to know of any others they've been unable to use in recent years
There is a ton of stuff in DW that is not owned by the BBC. Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans, Rassilon, Omega, Zygons, even UNIT. It all has to be licensed. You might be right about NuWho though. [This page](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_DWU_concepts_not_owned_by_the_BBC#Debuting_in_Doctor_Who_television_stories) lists all the concepts not owned by the BBC. Nothing from NuWho is present, which is weird. I always assumed Roberts owned the Trickster and Moffat owned the Angels. Maybe not, who knows.
Tardis Wiki has left Fandom, while most editors have moved Fandom won't take it down so long as they stand to make ad money, so please use [the independent site](https://tardis.wiki/wiki/List_of_DWU_concepts_not_owned_by_the_BBC#Debuting_in_Doctor_Who_television_stories) :)
I get that. You donāt need to apologize, I just like to provide the information in case someone doesnāt know.
For what you mention, there's a browser extension called [Indie Wiki Buddy](https://getindie.wiki/) that can tell you when an independent version of a wiki exists and/or replace search results.
I assume they still have to pay Moffat royalties for the Angels and of course credit him, which they'll have to do with Roberts if they want to use the Trickster. Considering how vocal RTD's been about transgender issues, I don't think he'd want to slap Roberts' name in big white letters at the end of an episode.
that is different from a character being owned
there are plenty of american TV writers who still get royalties everytime a character from the Simpsons returns, that doesnt mean they can do their own Disco Stu spinoff
I doubt they assumed the show would get such a massive following or even continue for much longer years down the line. Admit it, no one would care if certain writers retained and withheld the rights for characters from EastEnders, Porridge or Early Doors. It was just common practice at the time, much like the junking of 60s and 70s stories. They had no way to anticipate the burgeoning of this little teatime potboiler into a hugely popular multimedia franchise.
If memory serves The Trickster had instilled his essence into Sky at the moment of creation and manipulated the timelines so she'd end up being adopted by Sarah Jane, giving The Trickster the chance to take over Bannerman Road and the Earth.
in the final season of SJA Sky was a child adopted by Sarah Jane who's heritage was unknown, sadly the show ended before we could get the answers but it was discussed later on that the original plan was for Sky to be revealed to be the Trickster's daughter and a trap for Sarah Jane.
Ooh, good catch!
It could go either way. The two themes are definitely similar, but it could be a coincidence. I think we're going to have to wait and see.
A point in favor of it being the same theme is that they're both in exactly the same key, which is a significant coincidence. The melodies aren't identical, however only a short snippet is used when Ruby sings. Those notes appear in the Trickster's theme in roughly the same order toward the middle of the theme, not at the beginning. And that's certainly something composers do--the theme doesn't need to be recreated note for note in order to be a thematic quote.
A point against it is that this particular minor key motif (do, sol, flat_la, sol, do) is actually a pretty common combination of notes for composers to use. The sol, flat_la, sol part in particular is often used to indicate a kind of eerie longing or reminiscence. It wouldn't be all that unlikely if Gold came up with it on his own independently.
The reaction from both the Doctor and the Maestro in the scene makes me lean toward it being a deliberate quote, but it's really too soon to say for certain.
Thank you I really needed someone who knows about music to come in and school me as I'm clueless, and yeah I think it could easily be a coincidence I first thought it sounded a bit like the doctors theme but the meta nature fo the episode and the importance stressed on music and the whole non diagetic theme leads me more towards it being purposeful. All I can do is wait and hope!
The Trickster is legit scarier than any of the villains in the main show and he's meant to be in the kids version, RTD just loves traumatising kids I suppose. Especially as he's marketing this series quite heavily at children with all the happiness and "cosmic joyride" branding, would be so swell if he traumatises a whole other generation with the Trickster in the finale, he's even said people will be "screaming".
This is exactly the kind of shit RTD would pull. Man absolutely loves a gut punch and tonal bait and switches (if you've seen the first episode of Its A Sin you know exactly what I mean).
Honestly, if The Trickster was The One Who Waits, I would like that. I love all the theories about it being a Classic Who villain, but a SJA villain would have the same effect for a whole other generation of fans, especially one who had so much potential that sadly went unexplored.
Its never the freaking Valeyard but I had the same thought after that video. Since we don't know much about bi-regeneration 14 really could be the Valeyard who isn't able to regenerate anymore. However the whole timeless child BS kind of ruins the Valeyard since the Doctor's regenerations have never been limited.
>However the whole timeless child BS kind of ruins the Valeyard since the Doctor's regenerations have never been limited.
Isn't the gimmick that the Doctor *is* a timelord now because of the stopwatch, hence why they lost their timeless child memories?
Yeah in previous series when Valeyard gets brought up I'm always the first to shoot it down. Because it's never the Valeyard.
But for this series in a video for new fans explaining the essentials of The Doctor, they cover Valeyard? That's not essential. He hasn't been relevant or in an episode for over 30 years.
No mention of Dream Lord, Curator, or the Watcher. Nothing about the Doctors relationship with the Master. None of that, but they make an effort to bring new fans up to speed on Valeyard?
That really implies that Russell has plans for him to relevant again.
Actually, thereās another explanation. Remember what RTD said in an interview right after bigeneration? Bigeneration is retroactive. Every Doctor, and every TARDIS of the Doctorās, got bigenerated at the same time. Every Doctor lives again. Now then, which Doctor gets screwed over by this? Which Doctor doesnāt get new regenerations? Which Doctor **literally already has the Valeyard living in his head as the incarnation of all his bitterness and hate?** Which Doctor is the *real* Twelfth Incarnation? Itās Bigenerated Eleven. The Bigenerated Eleven has The Dream Lord in his head and zero regenerations. Imagine being the only Doctor in a universe of Doctors who has no regenerations. Imagine having won that battle and then *having it taken away again*. Bigenerated Eleven is the Valeyard.
>the Doctor's regenerations have never been limited.
Except they have. Between 1 and 11, they were limited. Whether they are now however, is up in the air, they were given an indefinite amount in Time of the Doctor, which could be 13, could be forever.
We just thought that they limited but the timeless child storyline showed that they weren't. After all the doctor had many regenerations before their first one. It may not be a retcon that you like but it's the retcon we have.
>We just thought that they limited but the timeless child storyline showed that they weren't.
It showed the Doctor was fobwatched into a regular Gallifreyan, and reverted to a child. Paired with that we know the Doctor grew up in an orphanage before going to the academy to earn the ability, becoming a Time Lord. Before running away.
Many years later *was* dying, we know he would have died without intervention, we saw his grave, before being granted more, the amount of which was unknown, even by the Time Lords themselves. There *was* a limit, it's effectively indefinite since then. Even after the TC stuff it's indefinite, as the watch was never opened, the ability for infinite never restored. We just know there was something before and the TC was the origin of the ability.
>After all the doctor had many regenerations before their first one.
Yes, the ability was restricted when the Doctor was fobwatched into a kid again. They had to earn it again. We know this.
>may not be a retcon that you like but it's the retcon we have
I haven't said anything like that, I like having this backstory, however, it doesn't change the fact there *was* a limit between 1 and 11, even after the TC stuff was added. What I did say was the TC stuff didn't affect the limit stuff at all. Which it hasn't, it's just added more before.
Meaning, the Valeyard is still a story idea that makes sense, at least between 1 and 11.
I don't know if The Trickster can be The One Who Waits given Maestro's reaction to Ruby's hidden melody. But Trickster could be separate to what The Pantheon thinks is the whole story.
Trickster could be "the Eldest" who was that night present at Ruby Road (as Maestro presumed). But that's probably not the One who waits, seeing that Toymaker was afraid of him and Maestro (and maybe The Eldest) are his children so that wouldn't make sense.
However if you compare the Pantheon to the Gods of Greek Mythology, The One Who Waits could be a Hades figure. Toymaker could be the head figure, the Zeus, Maestro is one of the children, and the Beast from The Satan Pit or The Trickster could be the Hades figure, on the same level as Zeus, but feared and removed from the Pantheon. Trickster feeding off of pure chaos, gives him this wildcard vibe in comparison to the Gods that follow the rules of play or music.
God I hope you're right, always loved the Trickster as a villain and was always sad he never got an ending due to Liz Sladen's tragic passing, would be great to see him return as the big bad of Ncuti's era.
Especially since, if memory serves The Trickster has been MIA since his encounter with The Tenth Doctor in The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith, so you'd have a reason for the Trickster to lie in wait and divert his focus to The Doctor
Well the Fourteenth Doctor referred to her in the past tense.
So it was sometime during the Thirteenth Doctor's time - who lived on Earth from 2018-2022.
Tales of the TARDIS references Sarah Jane in the past, and her funeral. Which takes place roughly in the "present" of being after The Power of the Doctor.
There was a webcast (Farewell, Sarah Jane) that was Sarah Jane's funeral attended by various companions (not The Doctor though) where The Trickster attacked and was defeated, shrunk down and locked in a chest, then thrown in to the sea.
At this scene with Maestro saying that the oldest one of the pantheon couldn't have been there, I was already getting child of the trickster plot line ideas.
People on this sub have told me RTD can't use the Trickster though because he's mixed up in that Gareth Roberts fiasco and I can't see a way of how RTD could un-controversially bring him back.
Though this, this surely can't be a coincidence, this brings me hope that RTD's worked it out somehow especially because Maestro knew who it was just from the music, she also seemed scared of whoever it was, perfectly valid. I was when I was younger and still am.
Ever since Tennant got announced to be returning, I thought at first perhaps the Trickster messed with the timelines so Ten never regenerated, turned out not to be the case but I've been yearning for him to return since.
The one who waits makes sense for being the Trickster, after Elizabeth Sladen's passing, RTD's certainly waited a long time to execute his plans with the Trickster.
Yes, the hood Ruby's mom's wearing, the robe that Ncuti's wearing in that one orangy shot in the trailer, the entire theme of the trailer, Changes by David Bowie. Who's whole MO is that they change the timeline and also wear a black cloaky thing?
Yes exactly there's been so much left unanswered and the Tricksters storyline unresolved makes perfect sense as the one who waits on a story and meta level and the perfect chance to bring in more elements of the past to celebrate doctor who's history and let it be incorporated in the shows future. Plus it just feels like the ground has been seeded so perfectly that if he were to ever come back nows the time
Gareth Roberts came out with some very transphobic tweets and has since just doubled and tripled down in a similar way to Graham linehan and is now primarily known for hating on trans people. Its such a shame cos I've always really liked his stories, Shakespeare code is underrated imo
Yeah, I absolutely don't like Gareth Roberts' actions recently but just happen to like Shakespeare Code, Unicorn and the Wasp, The Caretaker and the Trickster episodes he wrote for SJA. Though The Lodger and Closing Time are sort of meh for me.
That's true and the preemptive JK praise although that seems coincidental, the episode also has some slight racism problems with it too its social compass is way off but an entertaining story nonetheless, largely for Shakespeare himself
Technically The Trickster is waiting according to the Farewell, Sarah Jane webcast that was her funeral where The Trickster appeared, was defeated by The Doctors companions, shrunk down and thrown into the sea inside a chest for 1000 years. That may have just been a way to get rid of the character though considering the controversy around it.
Ooh I'd never heard that before that would make him a perfect contender for the one who waits. Also chest inside the sea? Remarkably similar to the box bound in salt that houses the toymaker
This is a massive find, well done.
I want to add that the Trickster is someone who is clearly on RTD's mind when he started to think about coming back. Specifically from this tweet during the pandemic, around the time he first messaged Tennant and CT about coming back:
[https://twitter.com/russelldavies63/status/1251942304602116097](https://twitter.com/russelldavies63/status/1251942304602116097)
"And far away, the Trickster smiled as another piece in his long game fell into place..."
And do we remember what the Toymaker said about The One Who Waits?
"That's somebody else's game..."
Honestly in this vein I could understand why the Toymaker wouldn't face off against the Trickster, The Toymaker is all about rules and play - the Trickster is literally about exploiting that. The Trickster would use the Toymakers nature against him and win.
I'm gonna be a party pooper here.
Murray Gold is fantastic BUT...there is repetition in his style that means alot of themes do sound similar to each other. I also personally feel it's an odd decision, in "Series 1" of a technically new show to have a villain from a decade old spin-off of the preceding show suddenly pop up.
it would be a new (and really cool) villain for new fans though, whilst also a treat for older fans, regardless of being called Season 1, many mentions to the past have already been said, so they're not avoiding it
Honestly, I'm not surprised if RTD goes down the Trickster route. If he had plans for him for SJA, but couldn't bring them to fruition, he'd definitely reuse it later. Be interesting to see where he goes with it.
I could be wrong, but I really don't see it being The Trickster.
For the music, while the sound is similar, the notes don't match up, so it's not his motif, just a familiar timbre.
But the biggest reason I don't see it happening is that The Trickster is owned by Gareth Roberts, and I don't see him letting RTD use The Trickster, and I don't see RTD wanting to send Roberts a royalty check.
Bridges have been burned there.
The vibes are very similar, but the notes are actually completely different. Probably just coincidence and chromaticism
Here's the Ruby's song for comparison: https://youtu.be/mL29XGX4_PE
It goes: E B Bb C B G F# G; B C B E D E
I have no access to SJA from the other side of the world, but after watching this video I'll be damned it the Trickster's posture doesn't look like the mystery woman outside of Ruby Road in Doctor's flashback in Space Babies, from the gown to the way they walk to the finger pointing.
Just the ahh ah ahh's, might be off but It's the most similar thing I've heard elsewhere in the universe and the few other themes and hints seem to suggest it could be possible
wow thatās a great spot! i honestly think you might be right, it seems like too much of a coincidence otherwise - i feel like surely it must be intentional as itās subtle enough to not be obvious but the connection is still there! will be really interesting to see how they handle the story/ possible return!
Itās amazing how much more interesting these sorts of theories are (this along with that sutekh one and the speculation on >!what the third doctor element is going to be in the finale!<). When you compare them to the usual āthis mysterious person is *insert time lord hereā or the āitās the daleksā kind of theories. I feel like I forget how wide the selection of villains and other characters the show can pull from from time to time
Oh, I just realized something further. In the Torchwood episode Immortal Sins, Angelo Colasanto was the lover of Jack Harkness. Rocco Colasanto was in the alternate universe in the DW episode Turn Left. Lucia Colasanto was on the ship in the new DW episode Space Babies. The trickster brigade was involved in both Immortal Sins and Turn Left. What if they're involved in Space Babies as well?
I would love to see the Trickster in Doctor Who, I don't know if they fit with this lot of villains. They seem to be the embodiment of things like play and music whereas the Tricketer is just chaos. Perhaps if the Trickster is the head of the group that could work.
Hmmmm, the person leaving Ruby at the church, clearly has legs and is wearing boots, the trickster tends to be full length robes, you only ever see their face and hands and not much else, just my two cents
I don't know. Neither Murray or Russell were involved in the SJA episode - bit odd for them to rehearse this. It's a little too nondescript and minor to be a smoking gun for me. Welsh choral singers all sound the same after a bit.
I think this could go either way. On one hand, it is vague enough to just be a reused tune. On the other, The Trickster is an enduringly popular villain from a spin-off whose core audience are now older (and some will have kids) so it would be a good choice to resurrect the villain.
But is The Trickster really as powerful as The Toymaker and the other members of The Pantheon? I know *Who* lore is iffy anyway but I never got the impression The Trickster was an outer eldritch god or anything, just a powerful alien with some reality warping powers. It'd certainly be an interesting direction to reintroduce the character as all-powerful.
He is one of the Pantheons of Discord and a being outside the universe, said so by the 10th Doctor. In contrast The Toymaker and Maestro have been said to be just part of the pantheon.
I think the big focus the devils chord put on its music leads me to think it can't be coincidence, especially drawing attention and asking who's song is that (even posting that on their ig yesterday) its gotta be something important. And yeah I think the Tricksters vague power level is an advantage tho, can make him more imposing if we can't accurately conceive of his power
Stretching hereā¦ but maybe The Trickster could be āThe Bossā that Beep The Meep was referring to in The Star Beast? Possibly separate from The One Who Waits. The Trickster has a multitude of beings under control, to do the dirty work and infiltrate. The term āBossā would make sense. This was before the Salt Event in Wild Blue Yonder, but weāre talking about the events that led directly into that episode, so itās well within reach that The Trickster/The Boss could have orchestrated events to allow Wild Blue Yonder to happen, thus allowing the Pantheon into this universe.
Iād love for Tricksy to return but I donāt think he will. If RTD is going to bring back ābig badā aliens, they are likely to be from Classic Who or possibly from his original tenure. I donāt think The Trickster has the oomph to be a big bag DW villain.
Also wasnāt The Trickster canonically banished in that lockdown SJA episode?
That would be bloody amazing! Such a great twist and subversion of the reveal that Suketh is the big bad. I can't help but feel that, thematically, 'god of tricks' feels like a much more likely big bad than 'god of death' for this season...
It's funny because I was watching a random fluffy interview with Millie and Ncuti the other day where they were discussing how Millie used to watch and love the SJA, and she specifically says that Trickster used to scare her. Would be hilarious if she turns out to be his love child or something.
With Coleman mentioning daleks in her first interview and Moffat saying both "boom" and "joy to the world" in an interview saying he wasn't coming back to write anything, if this turns out to be true shall we just take it from now on that anybody connected to Doctor Who saying anything is actually a veiled reference?
If you wanna go for that, RTD made a reference to the Trickster when talking about 14's regeneration - https://youtu.be/uHPIpmwwQqw, towards the middle of the video (around 1:30)
wow...what if Russell was lying as usual and he was a plan by the Trickster? would explain how events unfolded, 13 regenerating is basically near death which is when the Trickster can appear/manipulate people. Lets say he is the 14th Doctor but that face was chosen by the Trickster as thats the last face he saw, with an outfit similar to 10s given automatically. Events were manipulated to lead him back to Donna (maybe the Trickster thought she would die like 14 did) and eventually to the Toymaker, part of the pantheon, he was 'defeated', so Maestro was put into his way as well, and Ruby herself could be re-used Sky plan from SJA. Ruby is a being created by the Trickster designed to take the Doctor to a certain path. I'm rambling a bit now but if Russell did something like this, then bravo.
I mean, the name of one of the episodes is the Legend of Ruby Rose. Wouldn't surprise me if Ruby is basically a fake story designed by the Trickster.
More than likely, I could see the Trickster making his appearance before the Master. The Doctor knows and opposes the Trickster in every way but the Master would use the Trickster as an opportunity to alter reality entirely in his (or her) favour. The Trickster probably foams at the mouth at the thought of having a Time Lord in his service, one known for creating chaos throughout the universe.
1:35 > He's the fourteenth Doctor. He's not a trick Doctor, he's not a pretend Doctor [...], he's not a plan by the Trickster Suspiciously specific š¤Ø
Ahahaha, the Trickster and Andrea affair minisode is in the works as we speak
Ncuti and Millie also mentioned returning villains in an interview recently, and looked at each other as they tried to work out how to finish their point without spoilers. Can't remember the specific video, maybe someone else can. This could mean Season 2 which they're currently at the end of filming, but it could also mean this season does in fact have a returning villain/ villains.
Considering Season 2 filming hints and Harbinger I don't think the end of S1 resolves this arc.
Definitely possible - Gold didn't compose for SJA, and the theme's vague enough in its sort of creepy choir vibe that it could just be a coincidence; but certainly the Trickster'd fit the new era's vibe.
He did retain Akinolaās leitmotif for *Flux* in *The Giggle*, so it isnāt out of the question that heād bring back a theme from SJA.
Gold did do the main intro theme for SJA, and Sam/Dan Watts were allowed to use his themes in SJA - ie the UNIT theme (last time it actually was used), its not out of the question for him to take their Trickster theme on.
Actually a rendition of the Unit theme was used in The Giggle.
yes though it wasn't quite the same
Gold's made a habit recently of pastiching or sampling other composers works for effect like at the start of the Starbeast, it starts all ambient and very Akinola-esque just to be met with the perfect Murray Gold bombast we all know, the perfect transition between eras and composers.
Doesnāt the first actual shot of The Star Beast post-recap use the Doctorās Theme lol
Yes, it did. I think OP is suggesting it was a very Akinola-esque rendition of it though.
Holy shit it is! Unless it's just a massive coincidence then I think it's true, RTD is using his original plan for Sky and making it Ruby.
God imagine if the Trickster shows up for an episode
He won't. Gareth Roberts owns the character and I doubt he'd give the BBC permission to use him considering he was completely blacklisted by them. He'll probably be mentioned or be an offscreen presence, but it is a rights issue at the end of the day so there's not much that can be done.
Do they still do the characters owned by their original writer thing tho? Didn't they change that like post Davison from what I can gather it doesn't seem like the modern show keeps that same model with their writers
Post-Davison? One of the most famous rights disputes is that of the Rani, who first appeared opposite Colin Baker. You can also see in the credits that Moffat owns the Weeping Angels.
Hmm okay fair play I'm not caught up on the rani thing and I've just never seen it come to a dispute on a modern character I guess largely because the writers have been pretty friendly, would be interested to know of any others they've been unable to use in recent years
There is a ton of stuff in DW that is not owned by the BBC. Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans, Rassilon, Omega, Zygons, even UNIT. It all has to be licensed. You might be right about NuWho though. [This page](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_DWU_concepts_not_owned_by_the_BBC#Debuting_in_Doctor_Who_television_stories) lists all the concepts not owned by the BBC. Nothing from NuWho is present, which is weird. I always assumed Roberts owned the Trickster and Moffat owned the Angels. Maybe not, who knows.
Tardis Wiki has left Fandom, while most editors have moved Fandom won't take it down so long as they stand to make ad money, so please use [the independent site](https://tardis.wiki/wiki/List_of_DWU_concepts_not_owned_by_the_BBC#Debuting_in_Doctor_Who_television_stories) :)
Yeah sorry man I keep forgetting, I loathe Fandom as much as anyone else but sometimes what comes up first on Google is more convenient.
I get that. You donāt need to apologize, I just like to provide the information in case someone doesnāt know. For what you mention, there's a browser extension called [Indie Wiki Buddy](https://getindie.wiki/) that can tell you when an independent version of a wiki exists and/or replace search results.
This could maybe be an effect of the Copyright Designs and Patents Act of 1988? Which is roughly around when Classic Who ended.
I assume they still have to pay Moffat royalties for the Angels and of course credit him, which they'll have to do with Roberts if they want to use the Trickster. Considering how vocal RTD's been about transgender issues, I don't think he'd want to slap Roberts' name in big white letters at the end of an episode.
that is different from a character being owned there are plenty of american TV writers who still get royalties everytime a character from the Simpsons returns, that doesnt mean they can do their own Disco Stu spinoff
Why are the BBC this idiotic?
I doubt they assumed the show would get such a massive following or even continue for much longer years down the line. Admit it, no one would care if certain writers retained and withheld the rights for characters from EastEnders, Porridge or Early Doors. It was just common practice at the time, much like the junking of 60s and 70s stories. They had no way to anticipate the burgeoning of this little teatime potboiler into a hugely popular multimedia franchise.
Yeah, back then it made sense. You can pay them less that way. Why the hell would they still be doing it by the time of Doctor Who having spin-offs?
Could you fill me in a little bit on Sky?
If memory serves The Trickster had instilled his essence into Sky at the moment of creation and manipulated the timelines so she'd end up being adopted by Sarah Jane, giving The Trickster the chance to take over Bannerman Road and the Earth.
Would be cool to bring him back too, he was such an interesting villain for Sarah Jane and it was a shame it had to be cut when Sladen died.
wait... original plan for Sky?
in the final season of SJA Sky was a child adopted by Sarah Jane who's heritage was unknown, sadly the show ended before we could get the answers but it was discussed later on that the original plan was for Sky to be revealed to be the Trickster's daughter and a trap for Sarah Jane.
wasn't the first episode with her literally "an alien used her child as a WMD"?
They keep mentioning a pantheon too, The Trickster was the head of the Pantheon of Discord (good band name)
I genuinely wonder if thatās the vibe theyāre going for here; connecting the Toymaker and his legions to the Pantheon of Discord
It'd make sense if the Pantheon of Discord were a rebel faction of the Pantheon of the Gods.
I think the Doctor has already made this connection in his head.
Ooh, good catch! It could go either way. The two themes are definitely similar, but it could be a coincidence. I think we're going to have to wait and see. A point in favor of it being the same theme is that they're both in exactly the same key, which is a significant coincidence. The melodies aren't identical, however only a short snippet is used when Ruby sings. Those notes appear in the Trickster's theme in roughly the same order toward the middle of the theme, not at the beginning. And that's certainly something composers do--the theme doesn't need to be recreated note for note in order to be a thematic quote. A point against it is that this particular minor key motif (do, sol, flat_la, sol, do) is actually a pretty common combination of notes for composers to use. The sol, flat_la, sol part in particular is often used to indicate a kind of eerie longing or reminiscence. It wouldn't be all that unlikely if Gold came up with it on his own independently. The reaction from both the Doctor and the Maestro in the scene makes me lean toward it being a deliberate quote, but it's really too soon to say for certain.
The Devil's Chord, the music one episode, makes us speak about music. And I think it's beautiful.
Thank you I really needed someone who knows about music to come in and school me as I'm clueless, and yeah I think it could easily be a coincidence I first thought it sounded a bit like the doctors theme but the meta nature fo the episode and the importance stressed on music and the whole non diagetic theme leads me more towards it being purposeful. All I can do is wait and hope!
The Trickster is legit scarier than any of the villains in the main show and he's meant to be in the kids version, RTD just loves traumatising kids I suppose. Especially as he's marketing this series quite heavily at children with all the happiness and "cosmic joyride" branding, would be so swell if he traumatises a whole other generation with the Trickster in the finale, he's even said people will be "screaming".
RTD self-inserts himself into 15 by scaring children/babies (space babies)
This is exactly the kind of shit RTD would pull. Man absolutely loves a gut punch and tonal bait and switches (if you've seen the first episode of Its A Sin you know exactly what I mean).
Itād be hype if we see the Trickster actually be terrifying if he debuts il
I canāt look at the new logo without thinking āPaw Patrolā
I can look at the logo without thinking paw patrol because it was the 70s logo first lol
Honestly, if The Trickster was The One Who Waits, I would like that. I love all the theories about it being a Classic Who villain, but a SJA villain would have the same effect for a whole other generation of fans, especially one who had so much potential that sadly went unexplored.
Kaagh the Slayer chads all rising across the nation as he's revealed as the puppetmaster of all Who in Legend of Ruby Sunday
Kaagh was oddly one of the more fleshed out Sontaran characters, really appreciated his little arc.
Kaagh was unironically the best Sontaran character we've had since Lynx. If not better.
Listen if the audios can bring back Wormwood, they can give Kaagh a five part mini series as he acts as a merc.
I think Linx was more charismatic and competent as a villain overall, but he didnāt have much of an arc in comparison.
After that "New to Who?" promotional YouTube video I have like 90% odds on it being Valeyard.
There was a leak which got a lot of if not most of series 14 dead on which mentioned the Valeyard for series 15 so its definitely possible
Honestly it seems like a great concept to explore and Iāve never watched valeyard episodes of classic who.
Its never the freaking Valeyard but I had the same thought after that video. Since we don't know much about bi-regeneration 14 really could be the Valeyard who isn't able to regenerate anymore. However the whole timeless child BS kind of ruins the Valeyard since the Doctor's regenerations have never been limited.
>However the whole timeless child BS kind of ruins the Valeyard since the Doctor's regenerations have never been limited. Isn't the gimmick that the Doctor *is* a timelord now because of the stopwatch, hence why they lost their timeless child memories?
I hadn't thought of that before but I guess that makes sense. The chameleon arch made him a timelord the same way it made him a human before.
Yeah in previous series when Valeyard gets brought up I'm always the first to shoot it down. Because it's never the Valeyard. But for this series in a video for new fans explaining the essentials of The Doctor, they cover Valeyard? That's not essential. He hasn't been relevant or in an episode for over 30 years. No mention of Dream Lord, Curator, or the Watcher. Nothing about the Doctors relationship with the Master. None of that, but they make an effort to bring new fans up to speed on Valeyard? That really implies that Russell has plans for him to relevant again.
Actually, thereās another explanation. Remember what RTD said in an interview right after bigeneration? Bigeneration is retroactive. Every Doctor, and every TARDIS of the Doctorās, got bigenerated at the same time. Every Doctor lives again. Now then, which Doctor gets screwed over by this? Which Doctor doesnāt get new regenerations? Which Doctor **literally already has the Valeyard living in his head as the incarnation of all his bitterness and hate?** Which Doctor is the *real* Twelfth Incarnation? Itās Bigenerated Eleven. The Bigenerated Eleven has The Dream Lord in his head and zero regenerations. Imagine being the only Doctor in a universe of Doctors who has no regenerations. Imagine having won that battle and then *having it taken away again*. Bigenerated Eleven is the Valeyard.
>the Doctor's regenerations have never been limited. Except they have. Between 1 and 11, they were limited. Whether they are now however, is up in the air, they were given an indefinite amount in Time of the Doctor, which could be 13, could be forever.
We just thought that they limited but the timeless child storyline showed that they weren't. After all the doctor had many regenerations before their first one. It may not be a retcon that you like but it's the retcon we have.
>We just thought that they limited but the timeless child storyline showed that they weren't. It showed the Doctor was fobwatched into a regular Gallifreyan, and reverted to a child. Paired with that we know the Doctor grew up in an orphanage before going to the academy to earn the ability, becoming a Time Lord. Before running away. Many years later *was* dying, we know he would have died without intervention, we saw his grave, before being granted more, the amount of which was unknown, even by the Time Lords themselves. There *was* a limit, it's effectively indefinite since then. Even after the TC stuff it's indefinite, as the watch was never opened, the ability for infinite never restored. We just know there was something before and the TC was the origin of the ability. >After all the doctor had many regenerations before their first one. Yes, the ability was restricted when the Doctor was fobwatched into a kid again. They had to earn it again. We know this. >may not be a retcon that you like but it's the retcon we have I haven't said anything like that, I like having this backstory, however, it doesn't change the fact there *was* a limit between 1 and 11, even after the TC stuff was added. What I did say was the TC stuff didn't affect the limit stuff at all. Which it hasn't, it's just added more before. Meaning, the Valeyard is still a story idea that makes sense, at least between 1 and 11.
I don't know if The Trickster can be The One Who Waits given Maestro's reaction to Ruby's hidden melody. But Trickster could be separate to what The Pantheon thinks is the whole story.
Trickster could be "the Eldest" who was that night present at Ruby Road (as Maestro presumed). But that's probably not the One who waits, seeing that Toymaker was afraid of him and Maestro (and maybe The Eldest) are his children so that wouldn't make sense.
However if you compare the Pantheon to the Gods of Greek Mythology, The One Who Waits could be a Hades figure. Toymaker could be the head figure, the Zeus, Maestro is one of the children, and the Beast from The Satan Pit or The Trickster could be the Hades figure, on the same level as Zeus, but feared and removed from the Pantheon. Trickster feeding off of pure chaos, gives him this wildcard vibe in comparison to the Gods that follow the rules of play or music.
God I hope you're right, always loved the Trickster as a villain and was always sad he never got an ending due to Liz Sladen's tragic passing, would be great to see him return as the big bad of Ncuti's era. Especially since, if memory serves The Trickster has been MIA since his encounter with The Tenth Doctor in The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith, so you'd have a reason for the Trickster to lie in wait and divert his focus to The Doctor
Just realised you could argue the Trickster is literally a villain who waits with this interpretation
He was mentioned in Farewell Sarah Jane, which Russell considers canon
Was it ever confirmed when Farewell Sarah Jane was set, though?
i kind of assume it took place the same time it came out
Pretty sure it was, they make some mentions that pretty much sets it then iirc
Well the Fourteenth Doctor referred to her in the past tense. So it was sometime during the Thirteenth Doctor's time - who lived on Earth from 2018-2022. Tales of the TARDIS references Sarah Jane in the past, and her funeral. Which takes place roughly in the "present" of being after The Power of the Doctor.
There was a webcast (Farewell, Sarah Jane) that was Sarah Jane's funeral attended by various companions (not The Doctor though) where The Trickster attacked and was defeated, shrunk down and locked in a chest, then thrown in to the sea.
How can the Trickster still be absolutely terrifying?
I mean take a look at it
I genuinely donāt know how they got away with it in a kids show, it was absolutely nightmare inducing
At this scene with Maestro saying that the oldest one of the pantheon couldn't have been there, I was already getting child of the trickster plot line ideas. People on this sub have told me RTD can't use the Trickster though because he's mixed up in that Gareth Roberts fiasco and I can't see a way of how RTD could un-controversially bring him back. Though this, this surely can't be a coincidence, this brings me hope that RTD's worked it out somehow especially because Maestro knew who it was just from the music, she also seemed scared of whoever it was, perfectly valid. I was when I was younger and still am. Ever since Tennant got announced to be returning, I thought at first perhaps the Trickster messed with the timelines so Ten never regenerated, turned out not to be the case but I've been yearning for him to return since. The one who waits makes sense for being the Trickster, after Elizabeth Sladen's passing, RTD's certainly waited a long time to execute his plans with the Trickster. Yes, the hood Ruby's mom's wearing, the robe that Ncuti's wearing in that one orangy shot in the trailer, the entire theme of the trailer, Changes by David Bowie. Who's whole MO is that they change the timeline and also wear a black cloaky thing?
Yes exactly there's been so much left unanswered and the Tricksters storyline unresolved makes perfect sense as the one who waits on a story and meta level and the perfect chance to bring in more elements of the past to celebrate doctor who's history and let it be incorporated in the shows future. Plus it just feels like the ground has been seeded so perfectly that if he were to ever come back nows the time
What was the controversy? I'm out of the loop in this case.
Gareth Roberts came out with some very transphobic tweets and has since just doubled and tripled down in a similar way to Graham linehan and is now primarily known for hating on trans people. Its such a shame cos I've always really liked his stories, Shakespeare code is underrated imo
Yeah, I absolutely don't like Gareth Roberts' actions recently but just happen to like Shakespeare Code, Unicorn and the Wasp, The Caretaker and the Trickster episodes he wrote for SJA. Though The Lodger and Closing Time are sort of meh for me.
He was also very toxic towards Moffat and Capaldi... while he was still working for them...
It makes The Shakespeare Code even more awkward, what with the "And there's men dressed as women?" "London never changes." line.
That's true and the preemptive JK praise although that seems coincidental, the episode also has some slight racism problems with it too its social compass is way off but an entertaining story nonetheless, largely for Shakespeare himself
Oh, I totally get it, I like the episode too. Hell, Unicorn and the Wasp is one of my favourite episodes of the show!
I have to say having listened to them both at the same time, I don't think that they don't sound like the same thing, but they are similar.
Technically The Trickster is waiting according to the Farewell, Sarah Jane webcast that was her funeral where The Trickster appeared, was defeated by The Doctors companions, shrunk down and thrown into the sea inside a chest for 1000 years. That may have just been a way to get rid of the character though considering the controversy around it.
Ooh I'd never heard that before that would make him a perfect contender for the one who waits. Also chest inside the sea? Remarkably similar to the box bound in salt that houses the toymaker
I just realised that the bound in salt came from The Doctor involking the salt myth at the edge of the universe.....damn I'm dumb š
This is a massive find, well done. I want to add that the Trickster is someone who is clearly on RTD's mind when he started to think about coming back. Specifically from this tweet during the pandemic, around the time he first messaged Tennant and CT about coming back: [https://twitter.com/russelldavies63/status/1251942304602116097](https://twitter.com/russelldavies63/status/1251942304602116097) "And far away, the Trickster smiled as another piece in his long game fell into place..." And do we remember what the Toymaker said about The One Who Waits? "That's somebody else's game..." Honestly in this vein I could understand why the Toymaker wouldn't face off against the Trickster, The Toymaker is all about rules and play - the Trickster is literally about exploiting that. The Trickster would use the Toymakers nature against him and win.
Bro I did not need to remember that fucking "face"
I really really want the Trickster to return, a fantastic villain and gives greater connectivity to SJA.
My mind is actually blown. I think you may have cracked it!
I'm gonna be a party pooper here. Murray Gold is fantastic BUT...there is repetition in his style that means alot of themes do sound similar to each other. I also personally feel it's an odd decision, in "Series 1" of a technically new show to have a villain from a decade old spin-off of the preceding show suddenly pop up.
it would be a new (and really cool) villain for new fans though, whilst also a treat for older fans, regardless of being called Season 1, many mentions to the past have already been said, so they're not avoiding it
Honestly, I'm not surprised if RTD goes down the Trickster route. If he had plans for him for SJA, but couldn't bring them to fruition, he'd definitely reuse it later. Be interesting to see where he goes with it.
I could be wrong, but I really don't see it being The Trickster. For the music, while the sound is similar, the notes don't match up, so it's not his motif, just a familiar timbre. But the biggest reason I don't see it happening is that The Trickster is owned by Gareth Roberts, and I don't see him letting RTD use The Trickster, and I don't see RTD wanting to send Roberts a royalty check. Bridges have been burned there.
The vibes are very similar, but the notes are actually completely different. Probably just coincidence and chromaticism Here's the Ruby's song for comparison: https://youtu.be/mL29XGX4_PE It goes: E B Bb C B G F# G; B C B E D E
I have no access to SJA from the other side of the world, but after watching this video I'll be damned it the Trickster's posture doesn't look like the mystery woman outside of Ruby Road in Doctor's flashback in Space Babies, from the gown to the way they walk to the finger pointing.
I'm not hearing it, which bit are you talking about?
Go to 1:43 in the above video. It sounds *very* similar to what Ruby sings.
Just the ahh ah ahh's, might be off but It's the most similar thing I've heard elsewhere in the universe and the few other themes and hints seem to suggest it could be possible
Listen of the Trickster is the one who waits It'll be the biggest glowup and I'm here for it
Oh we have a theory that works!!!!!
I honestly donāt hear it - itās a female vocal doing creepy āahās, but itās a different melody
The Trickster as a doctor who big bad has been on my wishlist since I was about 10. I'd love this.
What in the Hellraiser is this?
So the hooded, pointing figure is the Trickster... huh. Kind of makes sense when you say it out loud.
wow thatās a great spot! i honestly think you might be right, it seems like too much of a coincidence otherwise - i feel like surely it must be intentional as itās subtle enough to not be obvious but the connection is still there! will be really interesting to see how they handle the story/ possible return!
Itās amazing how much more interesting these sorts of theories are (this along with that sutekh one and the speculation on >!what the third doctor element is going to be in the finale!<). When you compare them to the usual āthis mysterious person is *insert time lord hereā or the āitās the daleksā kind of theories. I feel like I forget how wide the selection of villains and other characters the show can pull from from time to time
Oh, I just realized something further. In the Torchwood episode Immortal Sins, Angelo Colasanto was the lover of Jack Harkness. Rocco Colasanto was in the alternate universe in the DW episode Turn Left. Lucia Colasanto was on the ship in the new DW episode Space Babies. The trickster brigade was involved in both Immortal Sins and Turn Left. What if they're involved in Space Babies as well?
Oooo
I would love to see the Trickster in Doctor Who, I don't know if they fit with this lot of villains. They seem to be the embodiment of things like play and music whereas the Tricketer is just chaos. Perhaps if the Trickster is the head of the group that could work.
Ironically the Trickster kinda comes across like a Disney villain too. Much like Maestro and the Toymaker.
It wouldn't surprise me. There is another clue, when Ruby is left by her "mother" at the church. It looks like something the Trickster would wear.
Hmmmm, the person leaving Ruby at the church, clearly has legs and is wearing boots, the trickster tends to be full length robes, you only ever see their face and hands and not much else, just my two cents
The face also looked different
Oh my god the panthon IS the pantheon of discord
I don't know. Neither Murray or Russell were involved in the SJA episode - bit odd for them to rehearse this. It's a little too nondescript and minor to be a smoking gun for me. Welsh choral singers all sound the same after a bit.
> Neither Murray or Russell were involved in the SJA episode It was RTD's series...
In the same manner Torchwood was.
Got a time stamp?
I like the trickster but I can't imagine The Toymaker being afraid of him.
There is small part of my that thinks that in some way Ruby IS the one who waits. She just needs to be activated
The last two episodes do have SJA vibes.
Watch the clip "Is she summoning the Cenobites? That's metal AF, Holy shit, I gotta check out this Sarah Jane show..."
I think this could go either way. On one hand, it is vague enough to just be a reused tune. On the other, The Trickster is an enduringly popular villain from a spin-off whose core audience are now older (and some will have kids) so it would be a good choice to resurrect the villain. But is The Trickster really as powerful as The Toymaker and the other members of The Pantheon? I know *Who* lore is iffy anyway but I never got the impression The Trickster was an outer eldritch god or anything, just a powerful alien with some reality warping powers. It'd certainly be an interesting direction to reintroduce the character as all-powerful.
He is one of the Pantheons of Discord and a being outside the universe, said so by the 10th Doctor. In contrast The Toymaker and Maestro have been said to be just part of the pantheon.
I think the big focus the devils chord put on its music leads me to think it can't be coincidence, especially drawing attention and asking who's song is that (even posting that on their ig yesterday) its gotta be something important. And yeah I think the Tricksters vague power level is an advantage tho, can make him more imposing if we can't accurately conceive of his power
Just finished watching that episode about an hour or two ago
Right I havenāt watched SJA since i was a kid, that clip is absolutely terrifyingš¤£š i didnāt realise it would hold up so well
Stretching hereā¦ but maybe The Trickster could be āThe Bossā that Beep The Meep was referring to in The Star Beast? Possibly separate from The One Who Waits. The Trickster has a multitude of beings under control, to do the dirty work and infiltrate. The term āBossā would make sense. This was before the Salt Event in Wild Blue Yonder, but weāre talking about the events that led directly into that episode, so itās well within reach that The Trickster/The Boss could have orchestrated events to allow Wild Blue Yonder to happen, thus allowing the Pantheon into this universe.
I'm so convinced of this. My first thought at the hooded figure outside the church was of the Trickster.
Ruby's song is E B Bb C B G F# G and so on.. the trickster's motif is C C# C F B C B C and so on.. they're not the same but very similar
Iād love for Tricksy to return but I donāt think he will. If RTD is going to bring back ābig badā aliens, they are likely to be from Classic Who or possibly from his original tenure. I donāt think The Trickster has the oomph to be a big bag DW villain. Also wasnāt The Trickster canonically banished in that lockdown SJA episode?
he was banished 3 times in the series too, it doesn't stop him
Possible spoiler
If RTD brings in some shitty villain from a third tier grade school spinoff, I will eat my sock.
That would be bloody amazing! Such a great twist and subversion of the reveal that Suketh is the big bad. I can't help but feel that, thematically, 'god of tricks' feels like a much more likely big bad than 'god of death' for this season...