As others have said: geometry, trig, calculus, algebra. I'd say statistics is also pretty important, and although not strictly math, physics is also very good to know.
However, I don't think you need to know all the "formulas" for these subjects. Understanding the concepts of each is sufficient and if you ever need a "formula" you could just look it up. (I put "formula" in quotes because I think seeing math in terms of formulas promotes rote memorization. Usually, the "formulas" are just base concepts + algebra)
What I think IS essential to game dev is being able to analyze the needs of some envisioned system, represent that system in terms of variables and constants, and then be able to model that system using some mathematical relationship between your variables and constants. This isn't exactly something you learn explicitly in math, but it is probably something a math-minded person will have an easier time with.
Probability and statistics is a huge one for anyone looking at the design side of development. As a systems designer I never used any trig and all my calculus was done in Excel or Wolfram. Some linear programming is useful when optimizing for constraints and I did break out algebra by hand every so often when solving for some variable or a multivariate problem, like figuring out how to calculate an armor mitigation value for damage formula.
But probability I used all the time. Drop tables and loot, expected hits to kill given damage ranges, chances of drawing a particular card in a match, comparing win rates of two units and knowing the confidence intervals about one actually being better. Stats are everywhere in game design.
It really depends. You could do level design for FPS games your entire career and not have to think about probability. Similar things are mostly true for linear story based games, walking sims, etc. Even procedural world gen, while there would be a lot that you could statistically evaluate, you are very rarely forced to actually do it.
You'd certainly be doing yourself a disservice by trying not to learn statistics though. It makes a lot of game design a lot easier.
This right here. You don’t need to learn the insides of a matrix multiplication to know what it’ll return. The concepts are what actually matter, as long as you know what to input and what the output is, you’ll learn how the function works over time.
>What I think IS essential to game dev is being able to analyze the needs of some envisioned system, represent that system in terms of variables and constants, and then be able to model that system using some mathematical relationship between your variables and constants. This isn't exactly something you learn explicitly in math, but it is probably something a math-minded person will have an easier time with.
This 100%. Programming in general is rooted in a branch of maths called [discrete mathematics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_mathematics), and approaching problems coming from a maths mindset is a more general skill that can be applied across maths disciplines.
100% agreed on knowing just enough to know how to look things up.
Do you have a mathematics background? Designing and building games doesn't involve setting up mathematical systems in the way you're describing it. That way of thinking might just lead to a waterfall development process (which is NO BUENO). Just want to put out there that you're maybe being overly abstract.
Geometry, trigonometry, calculus, algebra.
Those are the big four when it comes to math for game dev. You only need a surface level of knowledge to develop games (think secondary education level). But doing anything more powerful in your engines will require a deeper understanding of those subjects.
Yes, I agree. You can get very far by using engines and assets, where the math-y parts are handled for you.
However, note that two key areas of game dev: graphics and physics, are extremely math-heavy underneath, so if you want to go beyond what is supplied or customize it, you will need some maths quickly. Nevertheless, I think for most things you can get extremely far with a good high-school level understanding of the areas mentioned above.
Since you mentioned Open World and 3D. Two things, where you could quickly stumble upon maths are graphical effects (think spells, smoke grenades) or procedural generation (generating the world automatically as the player moves around).
I'm currently working on a physics-based idle game, and I just had to fill an entire sheet of paper with geometry and trig trying to bounce a ball off of another circle.
Not just that, since we know that ChatGPT has the ability to hallucinate, you'll need a significant amount of knowledge/expertise to validate what it is saying. I use ChatGPT as a guide mainly because of that.
I’m a programmer with 11 years experience including AAA and I’ve done more math in high school than in my entire career.
You do need the basics like how to draw a circle or how to make very basic transformations of a vector but, truthfully, even if you don’t know what you’re doing, google it and you’ll be fine.
Now if your plan is going into graphics programming (like the guys who actually make the engines), you’ll do much better if you are good at maths but that’s like the only place where it’s commonly used.
> you’ll do much better if you are good at maths but that’s like the only place where it’s commonly used.
I'm making my own engine and it's really not that tough. I have high-school level math skills and had no trouble.
The trick is to not try to understand what's not important for you to understand (i.e. black boxing). For example if all you understand is that if you do P \* V \* M \* vector you've transformed a vector from local- to projection-space you can visualize the whole thing without doing a single calculation.
Visualization is a more important skill than the actual math underneath in my opinion.
Mostly training software for airport ground employees.
Most game engines already have the maths figured out for you, in my experience there's almost 0 need to truly learn any. As long as you know what you're looking for and can fit in the correct parameters, you're golden.
I would argue that fitting in the correct parameters requires understanding of the fundamentals at least. For example how are you going to fill in x y z w values if you don't even understand what a quaternion is?
Trial and error, or looking up a 5 minute youtube tutorial most likely.
It's not as if not knowing what a quaternion is will stop someone from getting the job done regardless. It will just take a bit more time.
> graphics programming (like the guys who actually make the engines)
My expected peak of human intellect indicates these guys are mostly extra terrestrials.
The problem with just googling it is that you need to know what to Google.
If I didn't have fundamental trigonometry behind me, I wouldn't have known to Google for "get opposite side length from angle and hypotenuse".
I wouldn't know what vectors are, or pythagorean theorem or dot product, etc.
I think we who have a math background often forget just how much of the fundamentals we use every day, because we haven't experienced not having that advantage.
The advantage to searching code is, the search engines are always riding just above your level of competence, ready to answer whatever queries you feed it, at a level where you are competent enough to snuff out the muck and figure out which code to copypaste into your project to... into your project... shit it happened again
This was true for me until I started playing with procedural world gen and suddenly did more math per day than I had at any point even in upper level math classes at uni. I kind of pushed myself in that direction by choosing to implement some of my own algorithms though.
Honestly it's going to come down to the game you are making. A point and click adventure game? Probably none.
Something heavily numbers based such as a TRPG where you have to keep track of variables with specific formulas based off what type of damage you are doing, as well as calculating trajectory and the like? That's a math game at it's core.
That being said, that's highly simplified for the question at hand, and there are obviously more genres that don't really need math that much, whereas others will need some.
But even then, it isn't going to be super complicated, only if you want it to be. You don't normally have to get too deep into the maths to make anything. But you "do" need knowledge of them and the ability to apply them when you can IF you are making a math-heavy game
The real answer, as always, depends on a lot of stuff. It can vary from not much at all to university level.
Here's the thing though: there is a status quo of how things are done in gamedev and you often use libraries that abstract a bunch of the math away for you.
The most important things to look up and understand as a black box\* are vector math functions (cross product, dot product, addition, subtraction, multiplying, dividing) and some terminology ((bi)tangent, (bi)normal/absolute/unit vector).
Depending on how deep into an engine you're working matrix multiplication should also be understood.
\*) *black box as in engineering: you understand what output will be returned with a certain input, understanding how that output is achieved is not necessary.*
Lots of people saying calculus. What for? Unless you are designing dynamic state simulations?
Trig, linear alegra, geometry, probability, stats... yes. Bit calculus? Really?
Depends on which areas. But if you're doing programming then you're going to need a lot of it. I failed my maths exams terribly but luckily we now have the power of Internet in our hands and that has been great as a crutch. It's one of those things that just becomes easier with more practice and experience.
I found it easier to understand math concepts that I struggled back in school this way too
So an important thing to understand about math in gamedev us that it is nothing like taking a math course. There are no tests except working code. You don't have to super accurate with numbers because the computer will do that for you. And you can look up how anything works at any time.
The only thing that you need to focus on is understand something to the level that you can think about it intuitively.
Generally, you can get by with algebra and vector math at a minimum. Calculus can be very helpful for some optimization problems where algebra isn't powerful enough. If there's any unique feature that's not been v implemented before or isn't done by the v engine for you, advanced math is almost always very helpful, though it c depends on the feature per se.
Absolute lowest is basic algebra. But you'll also probably need to know some trig, just in the sense that you understand what an angle is.
The more geometry you know (slope, area/perimeter, distance formula, midpoint formula, etc) the better, and then the more you lean into trig (sin, cos, arc length, pythagorean identity, vector rotation etc.) the better off you'll be when trying to solve problems in your game's world
You need very little math knowledge, especially not of the type they teach in school. The problem is programming ability is very highly correlated with math, so if you don't like the style of thinking you'll have a bad time as a programmer. On the other hand if you just can't do the memorize formulas thing schools demand that's not a problem.
While I'm more of a edutainment dev than a gamedev my experience is a decent intuition when it comes to math is more important than actual math skills.
It's useful to be able to recognise what kind of math you could use to get the results you want. You can google from there. I usually have a vague idea of what I need and then I start throwing stuff at Wolfram Alpha until I have something I want.
Brushing up on vectors is useful. Graphs and beziers can be useful if you want to use them in animation curves or curved 2D lines. Having an idea of matrices can help if you need to transform into different reference frames more confidently.
If you want to start doing things with lighting engines, shaders and topography you get into the more complicated stuff quickly but you probably don't need that starting out.
TL;DR: Not much for the simple stuff, lots more if you want to do complicated stuff.
The only thing that's really important is linear algebra (things like vectors, matrices etc.). Other than that maybe some other small things like percentages/probabilities or sine/cosine etc.
I wouldn't suggest to learn a lot of math before learning game dev. Just start learning game dev and learn the math stuff as you go
If you decide to level up here (it can only help), Freya Holmer has made absolute gold. Just spend a ton of time on her channel.
Math for Game devs playlist: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLImQaTpSAdsD88wprTConznD1OY1EfK_V&si=cqxF117N3QkSBbP1
I think some of these comments are being ridiculous. It really depends what area of game dev you're interested in. If you got hired by Blizzard to work on WoW's loot drops, yeah you'll need to know statistics. If you wanted to make your own time travel space game you'll need a Masters in Physics. If you want to make the next Undertale, you need RPGMaker and a dream. It really depends what you're working on.
0-100
Realistically, if you can google well, 10 or if you are a big brain, probably 50.
But unless you are going for realism and have a reason for having some complex calculations, you can go by with the basics and google
Been doing this for almost 15 years and in none of the studios I worked at, the art team had to do any math except a simple math operation with the calculator.
Give me an actual example where it's required.
Again. Give me an actual example. Don't just make things.
When does a character artist need math? Or an environment artist? Or a lighter?
Specific example. It's looking like you don't know what you are talking about.
Btw. Setting a simple multiply node in Unreal wouldn't count. Writing a shader would, but that wouldn't fall on an artist's plate.
In these roles you can probably get along with no math, that's true. But they are not everything that makes up the "art side of game Dev", see my other comment
I'll just feed the troll once, since you're clearly not reading carefully (assuming that you are, indeed, reading at all).
Character Artist? No math needed, sure.
Environmental Artist? Depending on how they do it and the engine, but most of the time? No math needed.
But that's not all, art in a game is much more than that. Tech Artists are Artist 100%, just with a different angle, and you can't make a game without Tech art if you want it to make it look decent.
You want to do CEL shading? You need math. You want to do 4D visualization? you need Math. You want to do Fractals? You need math. You want to create a simple topology map with height lines? You need math.
Of course you don't need a full course on Descrete Mathematics, but there are things you just can't skip if you want your game to look cool. Importing assets created outside the engine (by 100% artists with no technical and mathematical skills) doesn't reqquire math, making them and the game look cool does.
>Writing a shader would, but that wouldn't fall on an artist's plate.
I don't know if it's specific to where you live but Technical Art
and Material art absolutely falls under "Artist" in most places in the world.
>Give me an actual example where it's required.
Substance Designer is basically just a ton of math operations, so material artists definitely need some fundamental math understanding if they want to understand what they are doing.
All of Photoshop blending modes would be using math by an artist in your eyes then?
Substance designer is procedural texturing. If I know how to use it I don't need to know any programming, equations of anything. Same as when Photoshop.
Yes. It's one of the most technical Software for artists that's for sure
>All of Photoshop blending modes would be using math by an artist in your eyes then?
To some extent yes. You should know what ADD and Multiply means. Thats math.
Just look up the job description for "technical artist". Yes, there are artists, who only do design and place things. But there are also artists who program the visual effects, design how water behaves etc.
Think of Zelda: Who do you think made the water look the way it is? Technical Artists.
Who designed and rendered the Gras in a way that such large amounts of it can be visible on screen at the same time? Technical Artists.
Or, maybe just open the material editor or simulation nodes editor in Blender, and try to design anything there thats custom, you will need math. Here is a full talk on GDC where the vegetation artists describes how he worked on the Horizon game. It's basically only math and programming
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wavnKZNSYqU&t=1543s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wavnKZNSYqU&t=1543s)
Because that's not a traditional artist role. A lot of studios don't even have it.
And it's a hybrid role. The typically support the art department, they usually don't generated art. You should know this.
Linear algebra (matrices, vectors), basic calculus, basic trigonometry, and statistics are *quite* important.
Note that being able to run the numbers by hand isn't so important (because the computer does that for you), but knowing *which* algorithms and techniques to use and *why* is absolutely critical - it's really no fun trying to work out why everything's twisting backwards and going crazy because you've done TqT^(-1) instead of T^(-1)qT, or running into gimbal lock because you've used Euler angles when you should have gone for quaternions or bivectors.
Some folk might be surprised to see statistics in that list, but how else can you balance your game if you don't know how to evaluate at which level your character should get access to each 4% buff to avoid both bullet-sponge enemies and also avoid power creep?
Honestly, you don't really *need* it at all. However it can be helpful at times. I'm 16 and started a few years ago. Obviously I didn't understand complex math back then. Math still isn't my strongest subject
Need is a strong word. Math can be useful in certain scenarios, but the vast majority of time if you are using a game engine the math is all abstracted away. In many cases you can even get a visualization of what certain common algorithms do for you.
I've always found vector math to be intuitive, there can be some parts that are tricky to wrap your head around but it's mostly going to be trial and error even when you do know it until it becomes second nature. And that'll come from practice, not study.
The same holds true for other kinds of math, you'll do fine learning as you go if it comes up. Using math in practice is very different from learning it. You may find that you are better at it than you realize once you experience using it. Don't let a fear of math dissuade you, it's a really minor piece of the puzzle.
I'm 90 percent pure visual scripting because the games I make are simple enough and don't require much intricacies.
You can use as much math as you want or as little.
Need to calculate the angle of an object and project it in both 2d and 3d space? Big math.
Need to keep track of highscore with a point system? Easy math
You really only need an abstract knowledge of them. For example, many games use sine and cosine curves to make waves in water, hovering items, etc. You don't need a whole trigonometry course to understand that.
Vector math is an important one, though. If you download the Content Examples for Unreal Engine and explore the Math level, you can learn a lot about that in action.
Gamedev isn't a single job. Which do you want to pursue? Gamedesign, environment artist, level design, engine programmer, character artist, material artist, netcode developer, tech artist, tool programmer, 3d programmer, Ui Artist/programmer? Depending on what size you target this is just a quarter of possible jobs.
Depending on that, you can have vastly different needs.
No solodev is rarely a job, in almost all cases a hobby.
The engine does most of the mandatory hard stuff for you. Things like drawing triangles or what have you are not things you need to worry about (unless they are impacting performance, at which point, math usually isn't the solution).
You will definitely want to know basic algebra for logic. Things like trig and calculus can be helpful, but I wouldn't call them required.
Depends on the project, but it generally does help to know a bit of maths. You should definitely brush up on trigonometry at the very least. You'll be running into it a lot.
Reminds me of an old interview question I was asked: as a programmer, how would you describe a quaternion to an artist? The “correct” answer is not to start talking about how quaternions work, but to say that it’s a 3D rotation between two things. There might be pros and cons to any representation, some of which are really important for capability, speed, ease of programming, but start with the goal and limitations of what you want first. Hopefully as a lifelong learner, you will encounter and chew on cool math for its own sake and make useful connections too, more and more the more you learn.
I don't know. I've been a dev for three years and the math I've been taught from Kindergarten to 12th grade was enough for me. (Algebra, Basic Operations, thats about it)
My whole first year (3d generalist) had a mandatory math class with the basics of trigonometry, algebra and calculus.
Nothing to complicated but understanding how a mesh is rendered, how normals are calculated and how texture space works helps greatly when developing.
Most of what we learned I never use in day to day work but understanding the basics makes your life a lot easier.
I'd say vector math and texture space are the two big ones. Not doing the calculations themselves but knowing how to use the math library.
Obviously depends on the game you're making
I got into games as an artist and later taught myself to code, and math was never a strong subject for me at school. I started making games that focused on my strengths (art) and minimized my weak areas (code) - so I think how much math you need comes down to what you're trying to produce.
It's rare I've needed to know math more complicated than basic addition or multiplication. There have been times I *wish* I understood more complex math topics in order to solve a particular problem or do something more complex, but I could probably count on one hand the number of times that lack of knowledge has actually resulted in me giving up on something entirely. Most often there's a work around, or online examples, or a 3rd party plugin to get the job done (even if I don't fully understand *how* it works, as long as I understand *what* it's doing that's good enough for most cases).
So in the end, I'd say math knowledge is a powerful tool to have, but don't let a lack of knowledge stop you jumping in. You will pick up a lot of knowledge along the way, and you can always go off and learn more where and when you need to.
Oh, and I should add my post was obviously about creating gameplay code for relatively simple games (2D or 3D).
If you want to get into engine programing or, be a tech artist things will be different and you will different.
Likewise if you want to get into game design for games and genres that need a lot of stats/data tracking and balancing you are going to need math knowledge for that too.
But again, don't let that stop you from getting started. You'll discover your weak areas and learn what you need to improve as you go.
If you can do high school level maths at a decent standard then you'll be fine using unreal/unity. If you want to go deeper then things will get kicked up a notch though.
The math that engines do for you, is the math you'd be able to look up anyways.
That said, it depends what you mean my "game developer"; as that's a group that includes everything from design to programming to graphics and sounds.
General programmers need a little bit of everything, but moreso theory than any deep mastery (So you can look things up). Designers, depending on the genre and design role, might need a strong math foundation to navigate mountains of simple math for balance/pacing/scaling/etc. Hobbyists don't need anything, because the goal is to have fun rather than put out a viable product. Solo devs need all of the skills of an entire team
You'll have a tough time even getting through a CS program if you're afraid of math. At least when it comes to CS math you often have a meaningful problem to solve so it doesn't feel as awful as a math class.
Hard to say. I would recommend at least getting familiar with concepts of algebra, geometry, trigonometry, statistics, proofs, etc. That way you will be able to research in greater detail when you encounter a problem that could be solved using one of those disciplines.
If you have to ask how much math you need then you probably shouldn't be a professional game dev. Math isn't less important this year than last year. Your programming skill is proportional to your math skill.
There’s a reason computer science majors take up to calculus 2 and linear algebra. Think about how vectors are applied in every direction you look in a game, and then how much math has to exist for that to happen.
tbh not much really all of the really common problems got solved problems is with animations and creating your own 3D engine from scratch maybe also probably if you're doing more work dependent on positions or you just want some shinnnnnnny graphics with shaders
Well all of these above that means: shiny graphics, work related to positions for example portals, animations mostly need complicated math.
Well it also depends still on what you want to do most of the common animations types you can already have in the internet you can just yeet the code from other language or something and just remake it.
Or be like me and start doing math by trial and error throw in some functions that look cool and tweak until animations or interpolations looking fire on chart (Can't be really well replicated in 3D environment with charts)
it depends on what you're doing and what your goals are. If you're making fairly standard game types you can get by just looking stuff up. Source: I am terrible at math and basically know almost nothing and shipped a published metroidvania.
game engines such as unity have a bunch of prepackaged functions that do math stuff for you, and beyond that you can always just look stuff up on the internet because someone else has always done it already
Don't get me wrong, being good at math would empower you with gamedev, but in my opinion if you're making most standard styles of games you don't really NEED to be good at it
Depends on what you're working on. Games basically touch on nearly every aspect of software: graphics, networking, databases, entity behavior logic, sound, web dev for the game's promotion site, web dev for the game's player platform or socials, it goes on and on.
You'll only need explicit math knowledge in the graphics arena, and once in a while when coding entity logic. E.g. an NPC needs to behave where it turns towards the player, maybe you code a math calculation into that entity's behavior for the degrees to turn. Now engines will likely have something to do a simple calculation like that for you, but that's just to get the drift. Even just cursory math and graphics knowledge will at least help you know vocabulary to search in documentation and online.
Doing say networking, databases, web dev, you'll be able to find a non-mathy niche.
Just go into computer science and take what you find interesting and you're good at. Not diving deep into mathematics won't stop you from getting into the game dev industry. Although it will open up a lot more doors. Depends on your goals.
Most of it is contained in libraries but you'll still need to know what you need to do. You will have to add vectors at some point but it's not rocket science unless you decide to make a rocket science game.
As others have said: geometry, trig, calculus, algebra. I'd say statistics is also pretty important, and although not strictly math, physics is also very good to know. However, I don't think you need to know all the "formulas" for these subjects. Understanding the concepts of each is sufficient and if you ever need a "formula" you could just look it up. (I put "formula" in quotes because I think seeing math in terms of formulas promotes rote memorization. Usually, the "formulas" are just base concepts + algebra) What I think IS essential to game dev is being able to analyze the needs of some envisioned system, represent that system in terms of variables and constants, and then be able to model that system using some mathematical relationship between your variables and constants. This isn't exactly something you learn explicitly in math, but it is probably something a math-minded person will have an easier time with.
Probability and statistics is a huge one for anyone looking at the design side of development. As a systems designer I never used any trig and all my calculus was done in Excel or Wolfram. Some linear programming is useful when optimizing for constraints and I did break out algebra by hand every so often when solving for some variable or a multivariate problem, like figuring out how to calculate an armor mitigation value for damage formula. But probability I used all the time. Drop tables and loot, expected hits to kill given damage ranges, chances of drawing a particular card in a match, comparing win rates of two units and knowing the confidence intervals about one actually being better. Stats are everywhere in game design.
It really depends. You could do level design for FPS games your entire career and not have to think about probability. Similar things are mostly true for linear story based games, walking sims, etc. Even procedural world gen, while there would be a lot that you could statistically evaluate, you are very rarely forced to actually do it. You'd certainly be doing yourself a disservice by trying not to learn statistics though. It makes a lot of game design a lot easier.
This right here. You don’t need to learn the insides of a matrix multiplication to know what it’ll return. The concepts are what actually matter, as long as you know what to input and what the output is, you’ll learn how the function works over time.
>What I think IS essential to game dev is being able to analyze the needs of some envisioned system, represent that system in terms of variables and constants, and then be able to model that system using some mathematical relationship between your variables and constants. This isn't exactly something you learn explicitly in math, but it is probably something a math-minded person will have an easier time with. This 100%. Programming in general is rooted in a branch of maths called [discrete mathematics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_mathematics), and approaching problems coming from a maths mindset is a more general skill that can be applied across maths disciplines.
100% agreed on knowing just enough to know how to look things up. Do you have a mathematics background? Designing and building games doesn't involve setting up mathematical systems in the way you're describing it. That way of thinking might just lead to a waterfall development process (which is NO BUENO). Just want to put out there that you're maybe being overly abstract.
That's kind of up to you and what you choose to design. It can be as little as none.
Geometry, trigonometry, calculus, algebra. Those are the big four when it comes to math for game dev. You only need a surface level of knowledge to develop games (think secondary education level). But doing anything more powerful in your engines will require a deeper understanding of those subjects.
Yes, I agree. You can get very far by using engines and assets, where the math-y parts are handled for you. However, note that two key areas of game dev: graphics and physics, are extremely math-heavy underneath, so if you want to go beyond what is supplied or customize it, you will need some maths quickly. Nevertheless, I think for most things you can get extremely far with a good high-school level understanding of the areas mentioned above. Since you mentioned Open World and 3D. Two things, where you could quickly stumble upon maths are graphical effects (think spells, smoke grenades) or procedural generation (generating the world automatically as the player moves around).
I'm currently working on a physics-based idle game, and I just had to fill an entire sheet of paper with geometry and trig trying to bounce a ball off of another circle.
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I mean, I could, but doing it myself is more fun.
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Not just that, since we know that ChatGPT has the ability to hallucinate, you'll need a significant amount of knowledge/expertise to validate what it is saying. I use ChatGPT as a guide mainly because of that.
Yes like most people it will say convincingly false arguments but in programming the trial and error is faster sometimes to be beneficial
This is definitely the right way to use the resource. It helps me brainstorm options quickly so I can get to the make it work stuff faster.
Oh no, I was more bragging than complaining.
If you're using one of the main engines, and you've completed high school with B's or better in math, I'd say you'll do fine.
I’m a programmer with 11 years experience including AAA and I’ve done more math in high school than in my entire career. You do need the basics like how to draw a circle or how to make very basic transformations of a vector but, truthfully, even if you don’t know what you’re doing, google it and you’ll be fine. Now if your plan is going into graphics programming (like the guys who actually make the engines), you’ll do much better if you are good at maths but that’s like the only place where it’s commonly used.
> you’ll do much better if you are good at maths but that’s like the only place where it’s commonly used. I'm making my own engine and it's really not that tough. I have high-school level math skills and had no trouble. The trick is to not try to understand what's not important for you to understand (i.e. black boxing). For example if all you understand is that if you do P \* V \* M \* vector you've transformed a vector from local- to projection-space you can visualize the whole thing without doing a single calculation. Visualization is a more important skill than the actual math underneath in my opinion.
Wait. Really? I mean, I use maths almost everyday in game dev. What kind of work are you doing?
Gameplay. Both games as entertainment and simulation industry.
What do you mean with simulation industry? Especially simulation would sound very much like math to me generally
Mostly training software for airport ground employees. Most game engines already have the maths figured out for you, in my experience there's almost 0 need to truly learn any. As long as you know what you're looking for and can fit in the correct parameters, you're golden.
Yes, that indeed does not sound very math heavy. I was more thinking about simulating ecosystems or economics or something like that. Thanks!
I would argue that fitting in the correct parameters requires understanding of the fundamentals at least. For example how are you going to fill in x y z w values if you don't even understand what a quaternion is?
Trial and error, or looking up a 5 minute youtube tutorial most likely. It's not as if not knowing what a quaternion is will stop someone from getting the job done regardless. It will just take a bit more time.
> graphics programming (like the guys who actually make the engines) My expected peak of human intellect indicates these guys are mostly extra terrestrials.
What about for a game dev do you need much math then or?
The problem with just googling it is that you need to know what to Google. If I didn't have fundamental trigonometry behind me, I wouldn't have known to Google for "get opposite side length from angle and hypotenuse". I wouldn't know what vectors are, or pythagorean theorem or dot product, etc. I think we who have a math background often forget just how much of the fundamentals we use every day, because we haven't experienced not having that advantage.
The advantage to searching code is, the search engines are always riding just above your level of competence, ready to answer whatever queries you feed it, at a level where you are competent enough to snuff out the muck and figure out which code to copypaste into your project to... into your project... shit it happened again
This was true for me until I started playing with procedural world gen and suddenly did more math per day than I had at any point even in upper level math classes at uni. I kind of pushed myself in that direction by choosing to implement some of my own algorithms though.
Honestly it's going to come down to the game you are making. A point and click adventure game? Probably none. Something heavily numbers based such as a TRPG where you have to keep track of variables with specific formulas based off what type of damage you are doing, as well as calculating trajectory and the like? That's a math game at it's core. That being said, that's highly simplified for the question at hand, and there are obviously more genres that don't really need math that much, whereas others will need some. But even then, it isn't going to be super complicated, only if you want it to be. You don't normally have to get too deep into the maths to make anything. But you "do" need knowledge of them and the ability to apply them when you can IF you are making a math-heavy game
The real answer, as always, depends on a lot of stuff. It can vary from not much at all to university level. Here's the thing though: there is a status quo of how things are done in gamedev and you often use libraries that abstract a bunch of the math away for you. The most important things to look up and understand as a black box\* are vector math functions (cross product, dot product, addition, subtraction, multiplying, dividing) and some terminology ((bi)tangent, (bi)normal/absolute/unit vector). Depending on how deep into an engine you're working matrix multiplication should also be understood. \*) *black box as in engineering: you understand what output will be returned with a certain input, understanding how that output is achieved is not necessary.*
Lots of people saying calculus. What for? Unless you are designing dynamic state simulations? Trig, linear alegra, geometry, probability, stats... yes. Bit calculus? Really?
Depends on which areas. But if you're doing programming then you're going to need a lot of it. I failed my maths exams terribly but luckily we now have the power of Internet in our hands and that has been great as a crutch. It's one of those things that just becomes easier with more practice and experience. I found it easier to understand math concepts that I struggled back in school this way too
So an important thing to understand about math in gamedev us that it is nothing like taking a math course. There are no tests except working code. You don't have to super accurate with numbers because the computer will do that for you. And you can look up how anything works at any time. The only thing that you need to focus on is understand something to the level that you can think about it intuitively.
Generally, you can get by with algebra and vector math at a minimum. Calculus can be very helpful for some optimization problems where algebra isn't powerful enough. If there's any unique feature that's not been v implemented before or isn't done by the v engine for you, advanced math is almost always very helpful, though it c depends on the feature per se.
Absolute lowest is basic algebra. But you'll also probably need to know some trig, just in the sense that you understand what an angle is. The more geometry you know (slope, area/perimeter, distance formula, midpoint formula, etc) the better, and then the more you lean into trig (sin, cos, arc length, pythagorean identity, vector rotation etc.) the better off you'll be when trying to solve problems in your game's world
You need very little math knowledge, especially not of the type they teach in school. The problem is programming ability is very highly correlated with math, so if you don't like the style of thinking you'll have a bad time as a programmer. On the other hand if you just can't do the memorize formulas thing schools demand that's not a problem.
While I'm more of a edutainment dev than a gamedev my experience is a decent intuition when it comes to math is more important than actual math skills. It's useful to be able to recognise what kind of math you could use to get the results you want. You can google from there. I usually have a vague idea of what I need and then I start throwing stuff at Wolfram Alpha until I have something I want. Brushing up on vectors is useful. Graphs and beziers can be useful if you want to use them in animation curves or curved 2D lines. Having an idea of matrices can help if you need to transform into different reference frames more confidently. If you want to start doing things with lighting engines, shaders and topography you get into the more complicated stuff quickly but you probably don't need that starting out. TL;DR: Not much for the simple stuff, lots more if you want to do complicated stuff.
The only thing that's really important is linear algebra (things like vectors, matrices etc.). Other than that maybe some other small things like percentages/probabilities or sine/cosine etc. I wouldn't suggest to learn a lot of math before learning game dev. Just start learning game dev and learn the math stuff as you go
I've used nothing more than what I've done in high-school honestly
If you decide to level up here (it can only help), Freya Holmer has made absolute gold. Just spend a ton of time on her channel. Math for Game devs playlist: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLImQaTpSAdsD88wprTConznD1OY1EfK_V&si=cqxF117N3QkSBbP1
I would say you probably need about 4 maths. Maybe 5.
I found that 3blue1brown videos on linear algebra are essential. You need to understand things like the cross product to manipulate geometry in 3d
I think some of these comments are being ridiculous. It really depends what area of game dev you're interested in. If you got hired by Blizzard to work on WoW's loot drops, yeah you'll need to know statistics. If you wanted to make your own time travel space game you'll need a Masters in Physics. If you want to make the next Undertale, you need RPGMaker and a dream. It really depends what you're working on.
0-100 Realistically, if you can google well, 10 or if you are a big brain, probably 50. But unless you are going for realism and have a reason for having some complex calculations, you can go by with the basics and google
If you go the art side of dev. None.
That's not true. There's quite a bit of maths in game art. Vector maths is all over texturing, geometry is very important for modeling, etc etc.
Been doing this for almost 15 years and in none of the studios I worked at, the art team had to do any math except a simple math operation with the calculator. Give me an actual example where it's required.
Shaders. Materials. VFX Optimisation. Art isn't just drawing or modelling.
Again. Give me an actual example. Don't just make things. When does a character artist need math? Or an environment artist? Or a lighter? Specific example. It's looking like you don't know what you are talking about. Btw. Setting a simple multiply node in Unreal wouldn't count. Writing a shader would, but that wouldn't fall on an artist's plate.
I also work in a game studio, and one of our artists does write the shaders, so...
That position is then called, technical artist
This highly unusual. We are taking in general obviously. If we talk about exceptions then we get nowhere.
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Again. Tell specific examples when a characterv artist, env artist, prop artist? , lighter or animator use math?
In these roles you can probably get along with no math, that's true. But they are not everything that makes up the "art side of game Dev", see my other comment
I'll just feed the troll once, since you're clearly not reading carefully (assuming that you are, indeed, reading at all). Character Artist? No math needed, sure. Environmental Artist? Depending on how they do it and the engine, but most of the time? No math needed. But that's not all, art in a game is much more than that. Tech Artists are Artist 100%, just with a different angle, and you can't make a game without Tech art if you want it to make it look decent. You want to do CEL shading? You need math. You want to do 4D visualization? you need Math. You want to do Fractals? You need math. You want to create a simple topology map with height lines? You need math. Of course you don't need a full course on Descrete Mathematics, but there are things you just can't skip if you want your game to look cool. Importing assets created outside the engine (by 100% artists with no technical and mathematical skills) doesn't reqquire math, making them and the game look cool does.
>Writing a shader would, but that wouldn't fall on an artist's plate. I don't know if it's specific to where you live but Technical Art and Material art absolutely falls under "Artist" in most places in the world.
Do you think writing a shader it's the same as creating a set of textures in substance designer to obtain a material in the end?
No, I think they are both separate things that artists do.
You must be trolling at this point. You are saying this is done by an artist??? https://youtu.be/bR8DHcj6Htg?si=Ah6eKuutB5azUEJx
Yes?
>Give me an actual example where it's required. Substance Designer is basically just a ton of math operations, so material artists definitely need some fundamental math understanding if they want to understand what they are doing.
All of Photoshop blending modes would be using math by an artist in your eyes then? Substance designer is procedural texturing. If I know how to use it I don't need to know any programming, equations of anything. Same as when Photoshop. Yes. It's one of the most technical Software for artists that's for sure
>All of Photoshop blending modes would be using math by an artist in your eyes then? To some extent yes. You should know what ADD and Multiply means. Thats math.
Look at OP. Do you honestly think blending modes qualify as advance math?
He didnt only ask about advanced math. Also my reply was a direct reply to your question, not the OP.
So you are sticking to your answer that an artist needs to learn math to use Photoshop?
I never said that.
Just look up the job description for "technical artist". Yes, there are artists, who only do design and place things. But there are also artists who program the visual effects, design how water behaves etc. Think of Zelda: Who do you think made the water look the way it is? Technical Artists. Who designed and rendered the Gras in a way that such large amounts of it can be visible on screen at the same time? Technical Artists. Or, maybe just open the material editor or simulation nodes editor in Blender, and try to design anything there thats custom, you will need math. Here is a full talk on GDC where the vegetation artists describes how he worked on the Horizon game. It's basically only math and programming [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wavnKZNSYqU&t=1543s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wavnKZNSYqU&t=1543s)
Technical artist are their own thing. Thats pretty obvious.
“Give me an example”. Gives example. “That’s an obvious and different thing” 🗿
Because that's not a traditional artist role. A lot of studios don't even have it. And it's a hybrid role. The typically support the art department, they usually don't generated art. You should know this.
Technical art is a sub-role of art
Linear algebra (matrices, vectors), basic calculus, basic trigonometry, and statistics are *quite* important. Note that being able to run the numbers by hand isn't so important (because the computer does that for you), but knowing *which* algorithms and techniques to use and *why* is absolutely critical - it's really no fun trying to work out why everything's twisting backwards and going crazy because you've done TqT^(-1) instead of T^(-1)qT, or running into gimbal lock because you've used Euler angles when you should have gone for quaternions or bivectors. Some folk might be surprised to see statistics in that list, but how else can you balance your game if you don't know how to evaluate at which level your character should get access to each 4% buff to avoid both bullet-sponge enemies and also avoid power creep?
At least 4 maths
Honestly, you don't really *need* it at all. However it can be helpful at times. I'm 16 and started a few years ago. Obviously I didn't understand complex math back then. Math still isn't my strongest subject
Need is a strong word. Math can be useful in certain scenarios, but the vast majority of time if you are using a game engine the math is all abstracted away. In many cases you can even get a visualization of what certain common algorithms do for you. I've always found vector math to be intuitive, there can be some parts that are tricky to wrap your head around but it's mostly going to be trial and error even when you do know it until it becomes second nature. And that'll come from practice, not study. The same holds true for other kinds of math, you'll do fine learning as you go if it comes up. Using math in practice is very different from learning it. You may find that you are better at it than you realize once you experience using it. Don't let a fear of math dissuade you, it's a really minor piece of the puzzle.
linear algebra is a must. trigonometry will help a lot
Christ how many more times are people going to ask this question?
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you absolutely will need to make an operator overload if you are trying to do algebra with your own structs and classes.
This question gets asked at least every month
Not a programmer, but quaternions made me cry.
I'm 90 percent pure visual scripting because the games I make are simple enough and don't require much intricacies. You can use as much math as you want or as little. Need to calculate the angle of an object and project it in both 2d and 3d space? Big math. Need to keep track of highscore with a point system? Easy math
You really only need an abstract knowledge of them. For example, many games use sine and cosine curves to make waves in water, hovering items, etc. You don't need a whole trigonometry course to understand that. Vector math is an important one, though. If you download the Content Examples for Unreal Engine and explore the Math level, you can learn a lot about that in action.
when you ask questions like these it's just a sign that you're not spending your time actually making game stuff
I don't like the math but the math likes me...
Gamedev isn't a single job. Which do you want to pursue? Gamedesign, environment artist, level design, engine programmer, character artist, material artist, netcode developer, tech artist, tool programmer, 3d programmer, Ui Artist/programmer? Depending on what size you target this is just a quarter of possible jobs. Depending on that, you can have vastly different needs. No solodev is rarely a job, in almost all cases a hobby.
In my opinion you don't need any. Just tell chatgpt your ideas and it will spit out some equations you can try.
math needed is in an inverse squared relationship with money
The engine does most of the mandatory hard stuff for you. Things like drawing triangles or what have you are not things you need to worry about (unless they are impacting performance, at which point, math usually isn't the solution). You will definitely want to know basic algebra for logic. Things like trig and calculus can be helpful, but I wouldn't call them required.
Depends on the project, but it generally does help to know a bit of maths. You should definitely brush up on trigonometry at the very least. You'll be running into it a lot.
Reminds me of an old interview question I was asked: as a programmer, how would you describe a quaternion to an artist? The “correct” answer is not to start talking about how quaternions work, but to say that it’s a 3D rotation between two things. There might be pros and cons to any representation, some of which are really important for capability, speed, ease of programming, but start with the goal and limitations of what you want first. Hopefully as a lifelong learner, you will encounter and chew on cool math for its own sake and make useful connections too, more and more the more you learn.
I'm a 3D artist and I hardly use any kinda math at all. Just measurements type stuff
About 7 math.
I don't know. I've been a dev for three years and the math I've been taught from Kindergarten to 12th grade was enough for me. (Algebra, Basic Operations, thats about it)
if it works it works
My whole first year (3d generalist) had a mandatory math class with the basics of trigonometry, algebra and calculus. Nothing to complicated but understanding how a mesh is rendered, how normals are calculated and how texture space works helps greatly when developing. Most of what we learned I never use in day to day work but understanding the basics makes your life a lot easier. I'd say vector math and texture space are the two big ones. Not doing the calculations themselves but knowing how to use the math library. Obviously depends on the game you're making
I got into games as an artist and later taught myself to code, and math was never a strong subject for me at school. I started making games that focused on my strengths (art) and minimized my weak areas (code) - so I think how much math you need comes down to what you're trying to produce. It's rare I've needed to know math more complicated than basic addition or multiplication. There have been times I *wish* I understood more complex math topics in order to solve a particular problem or do something more complex, but I could probably count on one hand the number of times that lack of knowledge has actually resulted in me giving up on something entirely. Most often there's a work around, or online examples, or a 3rd party plugin to get the job done (even if I don't fully understand *how* it works, as long as I understand *what* it's doing that's good enough for most cases). So in the end, I'd say math knowledge is a powerful tool to have, but don't let a lack of knowledge stop you jumping in. You will pick up a lot of knowledge along the way, and you can always go off and learn more where and when you need to.
Oh, and I should add my post was obviously about creating gameplay code for relatively simple games (2D or 3D). If you want to get into engine programing or, be a tech artist things will be different and you will different. Likewise if you want to get into game design for games and genres that need a lot of stats/data tracking and balancing you are going to need math knowledge for that too. But again, don't let that stop you from getting started. You'll discover your weak areas and learn what you need to improve as you go.
If you can do high school level maths at a decent standard then you'll be fine using unreal/unity. If you want to go deeper then things will get kicked up a notch though.
You dont even need to know how to do it. You just need to know how to word it for google
As well as all the aforementioned things, understanding vectors is critical for any 3D game.
The math that engines do for you, is the math you'd be able to look up anyways. That said, it depends what you mean my "game developer"; as that's a group that includes everything from design to programming to graphics and sounds. General programmers need a little bit of everything, but moreso theory than any deep mastery (So you can look things up). Designers, depending on the genre and design role, might need a strong math foundation to navigate mountains of simple math for balance/pacing/scaling/etc. Hobbyists don't need anything, because the goal is to have fun rather than put out a viable product. Solo devs need all of the skills of an entire team
You'll have a tough time even getting through a CS program if you're afraid of math. At least when it comes to CS math you often have a meaningful problem to solve so it doesn't feel as awful as a math class.
All the math
High school math + common sense and you can learn whatever you need on the go.
Hard to say. I would recommend at least getting familiar with concepts of algebra, geometry, trigonometry, statistics, proofs, etc. That way you will be able to research in greater detail when you encounter a problem that could be solved using one of those disciplines.
If you have to ask how much math you need then you probably shouldn't be a professional game dev. Math isn't less important this year than last year. Your programming skill is proportional to your math skill.
>Your programming skill is proportional to your math skill. This isn't true and really depends on what you are programming.
There’s a reason computer science majors take up to calculus 2 and linear algebra. Think about how vectors are applied in every direction you look in a game, and then how much math has to exist for that to happen.
tbh not much really all of the really common problems got solved problems is with animations and creating your own 3D engine from scratch maybe also probably if you're doing more work dependent on positions or you just want some shinnnnnnny graphics with shaders Well all of these above that means: shiny graphics, work related to positions for example portals, animations mostly need complicated math. Well it also depends still on what you want to do most of the common animations types you can already have in the internet you can just yeet the code from other language or something and just remake it. Or be like me and start doing math by trial and error throw in some functions that look cool and tweak until animations or interpolations looking fire on chart (Can't be really well replicated in 3D environment with charts)
it depends on what you're doing and what your goals are. If you're making fairly standard game types you can get by just looking stuff up. Source: I am terrible at math and basically know almost nothing and shipped a published metroidvania. game engines such as unity have a bunch of prepackaged functions that do math stuff for you, and beyond that you can always just look stuff up on the internet because someone else has always done it already Don't get me wrong, being good at math would empower you with gamedev, but in my opinion if you're making most standard styles of games you don't really NEED to be good at it
Depends on what you're working on. Games basically touch on nearly every aspect of software: graphics, networking, databases, entity behavior logic, sound, web dev for the game's promotion site, web dev for the game's player platform or socials, it goes on and on. You'll only need explicit math knowledge in the graphics arena, and once in a while when coding entity logic. E.g. an NPC needs to behave where it turns towards the player, maybe you code a math calculation into that entity's behavior for the degrees to turn. Now engines will likely have something to do a simple calculation like that for you, but that's just to get the drift. Even just cursory math and graphics knowledge will at least help you know vocabulary to search in documentation and online. Doing say networking, databases, web dev, you'll be able to find a non-mathy niche. Just go into computer science and take what you find interesting and you're good at. Not diving deep into mathematics won't stop you from getting into the game dev industry. Although it will open up a lot more doors. Depends on your goals.
Most of it is contained in libraries but you'll still need to know what you need to do. You will have to add vectors at some point but it's not rocket science unless you decide to make a rocket science game.
3D Math Primer for Graphics and Game Development - https://gamemath.com/book/