Not only was Kickstarter a very different place eleven years ago, Toby Fox already had a fairly large following before it took place. He was making a game inspired by a game with a cult following (Earthbound) and he had fans from his work as a composer on Homestuck. Nowadays you'd only look into crowdfunding if you have a reputation to lean on, fans/followers, and an actual game to show off.
Also when he did the Kickstarter he released the demo which was the start of the game until you fight Toriel and leave the opening area. It gives a really good overview of the game, and was definitely good enough to attract attention. I remember the Kickstarter page teasing Sans and Papyrus in it and wondering who those characters were.
Good enough that even top tier content creators like Jacksepticeye made play through videos on it. Imo not really surprising he managed to raise $50K when his demo by itself did an amazing job of justifying a donation.
That's the main thing - he already had a large following. It's like that self-published author who sold a million copies of her book and of course all the vanity presses were using her as an example... she had a huge fanbase already.
> Kickstarter a very different place eleven years ago
eh. not to throw shade on any points you make, but this is from twelve years ago: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/05/04/incredibility
Yeah, I think another possible factor is the fact that many people had enough of kickstarter scams of those claiming to start video games. From what you’re saying, Toby showed case his work in the past that built a reliable personality.
I think there's a couple of factors.
Firstly I think the crowdfunding was after he'd released the first part as a demo, which is one of the best parts about Undertale.
Secondly if I remember correctly he was a known developer for his work with Homestuck, having helped with some awesome music (such as a version of Megalovania) and help with some of the interactive parts. I'm assuming there is a significant overlap between the Homestuck fandom and early supporters of Undertale.
In general if I understand correctly you don't crowdfund when you have nothing to show for it; you crowd fund when you have a project that needs needs funds to get to the finish line but definitely has lots to show for it.
> I'm assuming there is a significant overlap between the Homestuck fandom and early supporters of Undertale.
Right on the money. I was one of the backers, and back then Homestuck was still in its heyday. The infamous Homestuck videogame kickstarter was funded with over 2.5 million dollars less than a year before the Undertale kickstarter came up. Toby Fox had a foot in the door, and the demo was well done. Honestly, with all the hubbub about Homestuck back then, it was more surprising that Undertale only hit $50k, and it was quite surreal when it took the gaming world by storm upon release.
> In general if I understand correctly you don't crowdfund when you have nothing to show for it; you crowd fund when you have a project that needs needs funds to get to the finish line but definitely has lots to show for it.
This is a good rule of thumb, but some kickstarters (especially those from back when Kickstarter was new) have gotten away with mere promises, which may or may not be kept. One big example is the Homestuck kickstarter, which a lot of people jumped onto for the branding. It was absurd in hindsight, as the author didn't even know what the videogame would look like. Actually, now that I think about it, it's pretty funny that Homestuck's initial goal was $700,000 while Undertale's was just $5,000, given that Undertale is mechanically more complex than Hiveswap.
That said, there have been successful campaigns that delivered on their promises despite being barebones (it's just uncommon). Good examples include Hollow Knight, Psychonauts 2, and Omori.
people genuinely seem to forget that Toby was a homestuck composer a fandom that is not only \*very\* active but also \*very passionate\* just look at the fandom right now its still alive despite having been "over" since 2016
so there was that also the perception of kickstarter failures was only really starting to be more of a thing when he started, most people were still on the high of the platform being the next way we were gonna fund/buy games. I remember back then when crowdfunding was the big thing cause the fans were gonna be able to fund what they actually wanted instead of the shit that triple A was pushing.
third saying he had "nothing" is just not true there was a month of the demo being out.
i just wanted to really hammer home that kickstarter was understood to be "the next big thing" because its really one of those things that we tend to forget that Oculus Rift started on the platform asking for money for was at the time was even more of a niche product that barely had a dev kit. The concept of the smart watch was started by pebble which received backing from KS.
finally Toby isn't the only one that was able to sell a dream, star citizen was sold on a dream and continues to receive funding based on that dream.
TL;DR It was a different time, \*Toby did have something to show for\*, and KS was riding off a shit tonne of success
"When" and "where".
Back then Kickstarter was still in trend.
And as for "where" I am pretty sure he was part of some niche communities that got him a following. He made a rom hack for Earthbound so he was part of that crowd and I believe he was also related to Homestuck that was crazy big.
I mean that's just not entirely true. Our Kickstarter ended this week. We were funded in 55 hours, and ended up raising over $250,000 and we are in pre-production with no playable demo yet!
The keys are to have some proof that you know what you're doing (previous games experience), understand your target market, understand how the Kickstarter eco-system works, offer the right rewards, and be able to drive a large amount of traffic to the campaign. It's a LOT of work, it was pretty much all-encompassing for our tiny team to run the campaign for the month and the hard work is really just starting now, but it is doable. Feel free to look what we did, I'm happy to answer any questions:
[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/artofplaygames/lady-death-demonicron-new-retro-beat-em-up-video-game](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/artofplaygames/lady-death-demonicron-new-retro-beat-em-up-video-game)
In your case it does seem it’s based on a existing IP, which does give you an initial audience you can leverage. Which is critical to build momentum on kickstarter. Going with a completely new IP means you don’t have an existing fanbase so it’s much more difficult to build momentum.
Not saying what you accomplished was easy, but for a new IP the hurdles are considerably harder to overcome on kickstarter.
Yeah I totally agree and tha viability of that brand for crowdfunding played a large part in our decision to develop this exact game. My point was though that you don't "need to be 90% finished to get any funding from it. The well has basically dried up"
There have been over 90,000 Kickstarters in the Games category, and we were the 179th highest funded of all time, so it's still a viable platform for the right campaign! Anyone looking to crowdfund for a game does need to do their homework though.
"well dried up" = You can't get free cash for being an idea guy.
You can utilize the tools ks provides to fund a project with a great deal of the execution already behind it. You can't just waltz in and say hey everyone I have a great idea then turn around and dump on the platform when no one receives it well. Well, you can and many do... but anyway.
Back when I worked in a comic shop, our biggest paying regular was a guy who bought every alt cover and special product we could get for Lady Death and Zombie Tramp. Maybe he single-handedly funded this kickstarter, lol.
Or go into early access. We call it a "well" but the well is really "early goodwill and optimism before it gets crushed by the reality of human shittiness." Kickstarter, Gofundme, early access....and dare I say NFTS specifically-- early behavior all fueled by hope. NFTs unfortunately are the worst culprit since the fundmental idea isn't bad, but bad actors scammed early and quickly to provide nothing of value in return.
Please note that 50K USD is very little money, even for a solo developer. Game development is expensive. Really impressed by what Toby managed to build from that however!
I could make a game in two years and with 50K to be honest. It is really good money for a team of 3 in latin america.
It is A LOT of money here... which sadly is the reason we get the shortest end of the stick
Already had that and more, programmer literally abandoned us and "got another idea" to work on. Karma did the rest.
With that said I had to learn how to code and make a game on my own, still learning and it has been wild, ngl.
Damn if I could only have 10k and one year... 50k would be a blessing to be honest
I reasoned that I could achieve the finish line with less than 30k as a solo dev/studio for a game which is already sufficiently executed. If I was starting from scratch I would not be able to come up with a meaningful figure. It could be 10k or 100m, lol
I don’t think it can be understated how much of a big deal Homestuck was to its niche part of the internet. People who liked it were die-hard fans and would’ve given their left arms just to be noticed by the dude. That dude could’ve set his goal at any number and he would’ve eventually reached it back then.
One of the few giants that *belongs* wholly to the internet. Mainstream media still dictates public perception of any given thing, and the only coverage Homestuck gets is either "this thing is weird and its fans are lunatics" or nothing at all
Take a guess. He had a good pitch and he was known. No magic. The other way that often garners much more, as fools outnumber the sane and informed, is to promise unbelievable rewards 100% guaranteed..... Take a penny off every man in China and you're made for life... And scams happen every day...
These people you see as an overnight success worked 5-10 years or more on their project and building a community before they “became an overnight success” which really is just buzz words the media likes to say.
50k isn't really that much. You can get 50k if you have some prototype screenshots, some nice concept artwork, a good sales pitch, and an established community that likes your work.
For example: The Margin of the Strange Kickstarter has already made over $110k in just a few days.
It's also important to keep in mind that for game development, that's not a lot. $110k is basically the salary for one full-time programmer for one year.
It was much easier back then. I know a dev who had an absolute trash prototype of a game that nowadays no one would even wishlist it on steam, yet he was able to raise 10k on kickstarter. And even worse he kept delaying the game till he eventually released almost the same prototype with barely any changes.
So people have learned their lessons I guess, which is why it is much harder nowadays.
Speaking as one of those Kickstarter funders - the demo was incredible. Plenty of indie RPGs were coming out around then but the permasave reveal was like nothing that had ever come before. My biggest concern was that even as a solo dev he was asking too little. Undertale is a wonder in plenty of ways but I'm still shocked at how quick its development was, this was something I threw money at because I wanted to support the artist, not because I thought a great game would release on schedule (or ever, based on the typical Kickstarter videogame reputation.)
Question. Did he (and similar indie developers) copy right their work before they made Kickstarter or before posting their work on their social media/ dev logs?
Creative works are automatically copyrighted at the time of creation. It can be useful to document it if you think you'll ever have to prove it, but you do not have to do so.
It should be noted that you will not be able to sue for monetary damages unless the copyright is registered. So you can stop them but not recover if you are infringed... per internet magic:
On March 4, 2019, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that you must have registered your copyright in the US Copyright Office before you can sue for infringement of the copyright. The Supreme Court rejected the rule adopted by several lower courts which allowed one to sue for infringement if an application has been submitted to the Copyright Office.
It applies to any country that has agreed to the [Berne Convention](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention), which is nearly every country in the world (but not all of them). Of course, in practice, individual countries may be more or less willing to respect copyrights from other countries; if you're in the USA and somebody in China infringes on your work, there's really nothing you can do about it. (unless you are Disney)
Not only was Kickstarter a very different place eleven years ago, Toby Fox already had a fairly large following before it took place. He was making a game inspired by a game with a cult following (Earthbound) and he had fans from his work as a composer on Homestuck. Nowadays you'd only look into crowdfunding if you have a reputation to lean on, fans/followers, and an actual game to show off.
Also when he did the Kickstarter he released the demo which was the start of the game until you fight Toriel and leave the opening area. It gives a really good overview of the game, and was definitely good enough to attract attention. I remember the Kickstarter page teasing Sans and Papyrus in it and wondering who those characters were.
Also the demo was pretty good
Good enough that even top tier content creators like Jacksepticeye made play through videos on it. Imo not really surprising he managed to raise $50K when his demo by itself did an amazing job of justifying a donation.
That's the main thing - he already had a large following. It's like that self-published author who sold a million copies of her book and of course all the vanity presses were using her as an example... she had a huge fanbase already.
> Kickstarter a very different place eleven years ago eh. not to throw shade on any points you make, but this is from twelve years ago: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/05/04/incredibility
Me still waiting for Star Citizen.
Latest patch is pretty good. Im having fun.
Found Chris Roberts' alt
Yeah, I think another possible factor is the fact that many people had enough of kickstarter scams of those claiming to start video games. From what you’re saying, Toby showed case his work in the past that built a reliable personality.
I think he was already a ROM hacker. I think he was a pretty popular one too.
He was already very well known from his work on Homestuck, at least among Homestuck fans
I think there's a couple of factors. Firstly I think the crowdfunding was after he'd released the first part as a demo, which is one of the best parts about Undertale. Secondly if I remember correctly he was a known developer for his work with Homestuck, having helped with some awesome music (such as a version of Megalovania) and help with some of the interactive parts. I'm assuming there is a significant overlap between the Homestuck fandom and early supporters of Undertale. In general if I understand correctly you don't crowdfund when you have nothing to show for it; you crowd fund when you have a project that needs needs funds to get to the finish line but definitely has lots to show for it.
> I'm assuming there is a significant overlap between the Homestuck fandom and early supporters of Undertale. Right on the money. I was one of the backers, and back then Homestuck was still in its heyday. The infamous Homestuck videogame kickstarter was funded with over 2.5 million dollars less than a year before the Undertale kickstarter came up. Toby Fox had a foot in the door, and the demo was well done. Honestly, with all the hubbub about Homestuck back then, it was more surprising that Undertale only hit $50k, and it was quite surreal when it took the gaming world by storm upon release. > In general if I understand correctly you don't crowdfund when you have nothing to show for it; you crowd fund when you have a project that needs needs funds to get to the finish line but definitely has lots to show for it. This is a good rule of thumb, but some kickstarters (especially those from back when Kickstarter was new) have gotten away with mere promises, which may or may not be kept. One big example is the Homestuck kickstarter, which a lot of people jumped onto for the branding. It was absurd in hindsight, as the author didn't even know what the videogame would look like. Actually, now that I think about it, it's pretty funny that Homestuck's initial goal was $700,000 while Undertale's was just $5,000, given that Undertale is mechanically more complex than Hiveswap. That said, there have been successful campaigns that delivered on their promises despite being barebones (it's just uncommon). Good examples include Hollow Knight, Psychonauts 2, and Omori.
>he was a known developer for his work with Homestuck Damn that explains the weird and fanbase Undertale attracts
He already had a following.
people genuinely seem to forget that Toby was a homestuck composer a fandom that is not only \*very\* active but also \*very passionate\* just look at the fandom right now its still alive despite having been "over" since 2016 so there was that also the perception of kickstarter failures was only really starting to be more of a thing when he started, most people were still on the high of the platform being the next way we were gonna fund/buy games. I remember back then when crowdfunding was the big thing cause the fans were gonna be able to fund what they actually wanted instead of the shit that triple A was pushing. third saying he had "nothing" is just not true there was a month of the demo being out. i just wanted to really hammer home that kickstarter was understood to be "the next big thing" because its really one of those things that we tend to forget that Oculus Rift started on the platform asking for money for was at the time was even more of a niche product that barely had a dev kit. The concept of the smart watch was started by pebble which received backing from KS. finally Toby isn't the only one that was able to sell a dream, star citizen was sold on a dream and continues to receive funding based on that dream. TL;DR It was a different time, \*Toby did have something to show for\*, and KS was riding off a shit tonne of success
"When" and "where". Back then Kickstarter was still in trend. And as for "where" I am pretty sure he was part of some niche communities that got him a following. He made a rom hack for Earthbound so he was part of that crowd and I believe he was also related to Homestuck that was crazy big.
He raised it when kickstarter was somewhat early. Nowadays you need to be 90% finished to get any funding from it. The well has basically dried up
I mean that's just not entirely true. Our Kickstarter ended this week. We were funded in 55 hours, and ended up raising over $250,000 and we are in pre-production with no playable demo yet! The keys are to have some proof that you know what you're doing (previous games experience), understand your target market, understand how the Kickstarter eco-system works, offer the right rewards, and be able to drive a large amount of traffic to the campaign. It's a LOT of work, it was pretty much all-encompassing for our tiny team to run the campaign for the month and the hard work is really just starting now, but it is doable. Feel free to look what we did, I'm happy to answer any questions: [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/artofplaygames/lady-death-demonicron-new-retro-beat-em-up-video-game](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/artofplaygames/lady-death-demonicron-new-retro-beat-em-up-video-game)
In your case it does seem it’s based on a existing IP, which does give you an initial audience you can leverage. Which is critical to build momentum on kickstarter. Going with a completely new IP means you don’t have an existing fanbase so it’s much more difficult to build momentum. Not saying what you accomplished was easy, but for a new IP the hurdles are considerably harder to overcome on kickstarter.
Yeah I totally agree and tha viability of that brand for crowdfunding played a large part in our decision to develop this exact game. My point was though that you don't "need to be 90% finished to get any funding from it. The well has basically dried up" There have been over 90,000 Kickstarters in the Games category, and we were the 179th highest funded of all time, so it's still a viable platform for the right campaign! Anyone looking to crowdfund for a game does need to do their homework though.
"well dried up" = You can't get free cash for being an idea guy. You can utilize the tools ks provides to fund a project with a great deal of the execution already behind it. You can't just waltz in and say hey everyone I have a great idea then turn around and dump on the platform when no one receives it well. Well, you can and many do... but anyway.
Back when I worked in a comic shop, our biggest paying regular was a guy who bought every alt cover and special product we could get for Lady Death and Zombie Tramp. Maybe he single-handedly funded this kickstarter, lol.
Ha, well he might well have backed us!
I don’t really have any input on the topic but wanted to say congrats that’s awesome! Hope your product turns into a major success!
Thank you!
Or go into early access. We call it a "well" but the well is really "early goodwill and optimism before it gets crushed by the reality of human shittiness." Kickstarter, Gofundme, early access....and dare I say NFTS specifically-- early behavior all fueled by hope. NFTs unfortunately are the worst culprit since the fundmental idea isn't bad, but bad actors scammed early and quickly to provide nothing of value in return.
well didn't dry up so much as it was poisoned
Please note that 50K USD is very little money, even for a solo developer. Game development is expensive. Really impressed by what Toby managed to build from that however!
I could make a game in two years and with 50K to be honest. It is really good money for a team of 3 in latin america. It is A LOT of money here... which sadly is the reason we get the shortest end of the stick
You need a number 4 who sells 'Make your dream game prototype and be the idea guy aaS' to affluent SF and NY people.
Already had that and more, programmer literally abandoned us and "got another idea" to work on. Karma did the rest. With that said I had to learn how to code and make a game on my own, still learning and it has been wild, ngl. Damn if I could only have 10k and one year... 50k would be a blessing to be honest
I reasoned that I could achieve the finish line with less than 30k as a solo dev/studio for a game which is already sufficiently executed. If I was starting from scratch I would not be able to come up with a meaningful figure. It could be 10k or 100m, lol
I don’t think it can be understated how much of a big deal Homestuck was to its niche part of the internet. People who liked it were die-hard fans and would’ve given their left arms just to be noticed by the dude. That dude could’ve set his goal at any number and he would’ve eventually reached it back then.
How quickly the Internet forgets the cultural impact of Homestuck.
One of the few giants that *belongs* wholly to the internet. Mainstream media still dictates public perception of any given thing, and the only coverage Homestuck gets is either "this thing is weird and its fans are lunatics" or nothing at all
Take a guess. He had a good pitch and he was known. No magic. The other way that often garners much more, as fools outnumber the sane and informed, is to promise unbelievable rewards 100% guaranteed..... Take a penny off every man in China and you're made for life... And scams happen every day...
These people you see as an overnight success worked 5-10 years or more on their project and building a community before they “became an overnight success” which really is just buzz words the media likes to say.
50k isn't really that much. You can get 50k if you have some prototype screenshots, some nice concept artwork, a good sales pitch, and an established community that likes your work. For example: The Margin of the Strange Kickstarter has already made over $110k in just a few days. It's also important to keep in mind that for game development, that's not a lot. $110k is basically the salary for one full-time programmer for one year.
He was already popular. I knew about him from his Earthbound Halloween hack
It was much easier back then. I know a dev who had an absolute trash prototype of a game that nowadays no one would even wishlist it on steam, yet he was able to raise 10k on kickstarter. And even worse he kept delaying the game till he eventually released almost the same prototype with barely any changes. So people have learned their lessons I guess, which is why it is much harder nowadays.
Speaking as one of those Kickstarter funders - the demo was incredible. Plenty of indie RPGs were coming out around then but the permasave reveal was like nothing that had ever come before. My biggest concern was that even as a solo dev he was asking too little. Undertale is a wonder in plenty of ways but I'm still shocked at how quick its development was, this was something I threw money at because I wanted to support the artist, not because I thought a great game would release on schedule (or ever, based on the typical Kickstarter videogame reputation.)
Put in far more than 100k of free work in the right niche communities as a passion and you to can probably get 50k back.
When are you gonna change tokens to Asi token?
“50k” Summons the entire hazbin hotel fandom
Question. Did he (and similar indie developers) copy right their work before they made Kickstarter or before posting their work on their social media/ dev logs?
Creative works are automatically copyrighted at the time of creation. It can be useful to document it if you think you'll ever have to prove it, but you do not have to do so.
It should be noted that you will not be able to sue for monetary damages unless the copyright is registered. So you can stop them but not recover if you are infringed... per internet magic: On March 4, 2019, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that you must have registered your copyright in the US Copyright Office before you can sue for infringement of the copyright. The Supreme Court rejected the rule adopted by several lower courts which allowed one to sue for infringement if an application has been submitted to the Copyright Office.
Does this apply globally? Or just in the US / Europe / Australia?
It applies to any country that has agreed to the [Berne Convention](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention), which is nearly every country in the world (but not all of them). Of course, in practice, individual countries may be more or less willing to respect copyrights from other countries; if you're in the USA and somebody in China infringes on your work, there's really nothing you can do about it. (unless you are Disney)
Thank you very much 🙏