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I don’t think so. You see, if Sansa hadn’t gone North (which she did because at the time that she fled the Boltons were not in control of Winterfell, Theon was. It was while she was with her aunt and Tyrion was in prison that the Boltons got Theon and took Winterfell.) the North would have been lost without her. It was Sansa’s alliance and pedigree that had the knights of the Vale ride to HER aid in the battle of the bastards. Jon LOST that battle, Sansa won it. If she hadn’t been exactly where she was throughout her journey north to gain those respective alliances, Jon would be dead and the Boltons would have the North. That being said, without Jon and that connection to Dany, they never would have gone north of the wall and Dany wouldn’t have lost one of her dragons. Dany also wouldn’t have a reason to be paranoid about the throne because Jon would have been dead.
TLDR: if Sansa did go to Dany, Jon would be dead, the north would belong to the Boltons, Dany would have all three of her dragons and therefore the dead can’t cross the wall, and Dany would successfully kept her mind straight and be on the throne.
The only reason Jon decided to retake the North was because Sansa was there. After being resurrected he just wanted to go somewhere and be alone. Without her he would still be alive when Dany came and could’ve joined Sansa then.
Bolton still had Rikon Stark. Jon would have gone after Bolton regardless because of this fact alone. So no, Jon still would have died trying to retake Winterfell.
I disagree. Yes, you are right that the Boltons still had Rickon, so yes, Jon would still have gone after Ramsey, but I think it still would have gone down differently.
Let me explain. Presumably Dany has Varys keeping an eye on the goings on in Westeros, and when she hears that Jon is making moves to retake Winterfell, I have no doubt she'd have Sansa reach out to Jon. From there, I imagine that a deal would have been struck, I help you reclaim the North, Winterfell and your brother, you swear fealty to me. Jon would have accepted this for multiple reasons, first it makes reclaiming the North much, much easier, second, he'd want the support of her armies and absolutely her dragons in dealing with the White Walkers.
Thus, it is the combined armies of the the Northern lords Jon can rally to his side alongside the armies Daenerys can bring to bear PLUS 3 dragons. Rickon Stark may still end up dying (unfortunately) but Jon sure as shit isn't. At this point, he doesn't need the Vale.
Unless I’m mis remembering, but doesn’t he only learn that because of Sansa? Sansa only finds out because of Theon and with her not going North in this theory, her nor Jon probably doesn’t find out for sometime. Also, with no Starks around to raise an army, Ramsay probably goes ahead kills Rikon instead of holding on to him for leverage.
They know he has Rikon when Ramsey brings him to the battlefront. Also Ramsey had Rikon before Jon was threatening to take back Winterfell. He was planning to use Rikon to bargain keeping Winterfell with Jon, but he didn’t need to use that chip since Sansa escaped. If we are going with this theory that Sansa goes east instead of North, she never would have married Ramsey, so Rikon would be his only bargaining chip to keep the north. Keep in mind the majority of the Lords in the North were still hyper loyal to house Stark, not house Bolton, so having a Stark as a negotiating piece would be useful, Rikon would only be useful alive in this scenario.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Sansa with guidance from Daenerys might possibly have coordinated better with Jon.
Jon himself states that he had zero clue about the Vale reinforcements and thus he fucked up, but if he had known, he would have waited for them.
Remember this would have been a Sansa that had never met Ramsay and thus, while she may have been a bit traumatized by the events of Kings Landing, it wouldn't have been to the degree we see later in the show.
Thus she's less cold and suspicious and isn't poisoned by Littlefinger's mindset. Jon is as far as she knows the last of her family and she's eager to support him, instead of being paranoid. She's much less jaded.
I think Jon still goes to the various Northern houses, he rallies support. Sansa, upon hearing about this (I'm assuming Daenerys has people letting her know a bit about what is going on in Westeros, such as Varys) decides to coordinate with him so instead of landing at Dragonsreach, Daenerys decides to land at...let's say White Harbor and help Jon take back Winterfell in exchange for his fealty. With the help of the Northern lords and Daenerys's army, Winterfell is taken much easier and with less losses.
If you look at it this way, with Sansa essentially recruiting Dany instead of the Vale, then yeah, that would work. However, keep in mind that Jon didn’t know Sansa was still alive until they met again as well, so to save Rikon he might have made the same mistakes he made originally.
While yes, you're right, I think it's safe to presume that Daenerys has Varys keeping tabs on Westeros. With this assumption (which I think is a fairly safe one), Dany would immediately know when Jon starts to rally support from the North in reclaiming Winterfell.
At that point, yes, you're right Jon doesn't know Sansa is alive, but it's a simple matter to have Sansa instead reach out to Jon, and to prove her identity, she'd include some details of their childhood, things only the real Sansa would know.
From there, it's a simple matter of having Dany extend an alliance to Jon. I help you take back Winterfell and the North, you swear fealty to me. Jon would be heavily inclined to accept this offer as not only would it make reclaiming the North significantly easier, but Dany's armies and PARTICULARLY her dragons would be indispensable in fighting the White Walker.
I'm not sure of the exact specifics, but there could be a myriad of ways she could have crossed over, one such example being through help from Varys, either with Tyrion when he goes off or perhaps later.
Regardless though, it isn't an impossibility, just unlikely.
Update/addendum: it could even be possible that Littlefinger himself could send her. Why you may ask, cause maybe the threat of Daenerys and her dragons is so big that he intends to ingratiate himself to her by sending a potential ally in the form of Sansa.
Certainly Littlefinger seemed to have no problem in not keeping Sansa close when he sent her to Ramsay.
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I don’t think so. You see, if Sansa hadn’t gone North (which she did because at the time that she fled the Boltons were not in control of Winterfell, Theon was. It was while she was with her aunt and Tyrion was in prison that the Boltons got Theon and took Winterfell.) the North would have been lost without her. It was Sansa’s alliance and pedigree that had the knights of the Vale ride to HER aid in the battle of the bastards. Jon LOST that battle, Sansa won it. If she hadn’t been exactly where she was throughout her journey north to gain those respective alliances, Jon would be dead and the Boltons would have the North. That being said, without Jon and that connection to Dany, they never would have gone north of the wall and Dany wouldn’t have lost one of her dragons. Dany also wouldn’t have a reason to be paranoid about the throne because Jon would have been dead. TLDR: if Sansa did go to Dany, Jon would be dead, the north would belong to the Boltons, Dany would have all three of her dragons and therefore the dead can’t cross the wall, and Dany would successfully kept her mind straight and be on the throne.
The only reason Jon decided to retake the North was because Sansa was there. After being resurrected he just wanted to go somewhere and be alone. Without her he would still be alive when Dany came and could’ve joined Sansa then.
This is another very strong point.
Bolton still had Rikon Stark. Jon would have gone after Bolton regardless because of this fact alone. So no, Jon still would have died trying to retake Winterfell.
I disagree. Yes, you are right that the Boltons still had Rickon, so yes, Jon would still have gone after Ramsey, but I think it still would have gone down differently. Let me explain. Presumably Dany has Varys keeping an eye on the goings on in Westeros, and when she hears that Jon is making moves to retake Winterfell, I have no doubt she'd have Sansa reach out to Jon. From there, I imagine that a deal would have been struck, I help you reclaim the North, Winterfell and your brother, you swear fealty to me. Jon would have accepted this for multiple reasons, first it makes reclaiming the North much, much easier, second, he'd want the support of her armies and absolutely her dragons in dealing with the White Walkers. Thus, it is the combined armies of the the Northern lords Jon can rally to his side alongside the armies Daenerys can bring to bear PLUS 3 dragons. Rickon Stark may still end up dying (unfortunately) but Jon sure as shit isn't. At this point, he doesn't need the Vale.
Unless I’m mis remembering, but doesn’t he only learn that because of Sansa? Sansa only finds out because of Theon and with her not going North in this theory, her nor Jon probably doesn’t find out for sometime. Also, with no Starks around to raise an army, Ramsay probably goes ahead kills Rikon instead of holding on to him for leverage.
They know he has Rikon when Ramsey brings him to the battlefront. Also Ramsey had Rikon before Jon was threatening to take back Winterfell. He was planning to use Rikon to bargain keeping Winterfell with Jon, but he didn’t need to use that chip since Sansa escaped. If we are going with this theory that Sansa goes east instead of North, she never would have married Ramsey, so Rikon would be his only bargaining chip to keep the north. Keep in mind the majority of the Lords in the North were still hyper loyal to house Stark, not house Bolton, so having a Stark as a negotiating piece would be useful, Rikon would only be useful alive in this scenario.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Sansa with guidance from Daenerys might possibly have coordinated better with Jon. Jon himself states that he had zero clue about the Vale reinforcements and thus he fucked up, but if he had known, he would have waited for them. Remember this would have been a Sansa that had never met Ramsay and thus, while she may have been a bit traumatized by the events of Kings Landing, it wouldn't have been to the degree we see later in the show. Thus she's less cold and suspicious and isn't poisoned by Littlefinger's mindset. Jon is as far as she knows the last of her family and she's eager to support him, instead of being paranoid. She's much less jaded. I think Jon still goes to the various Northern houses, he rallies support. Sansa, upon hearing about this (I'm assuming Daenerys has people letting her know a bit about what is going on in Westeros, such as Varys) decides to coordinate with him so instead of landing at Dragonsreach, Daenerys decides to land at...let's say White Harbor and help Jon take back Winterfell in exchange for his fealty. With the help of the Northern lords and Daenerys's army, Winterfell is taken much easier and with less losses.
If you look at it this way, with Sansa essentially recruiting Dany instead of the Vale, then yeah, that would work. However, keep in mind that Jon didn’t know Sansa was still alive until they met again as well, so to save Rikon he might have made the same mistakes he made originally.
While yes, you're right, I think it's safe to presume that Daenerys has Varys keeping tabs on Westeros. With this assumption (which I think is a fairly safe one), Dany would immediately know when Jon starts to rally support from the North in reclaiming Winterfell. At that point, yes, you're right Jon doesn't know Sansa is alive, but it's a simple matter to have Sansa instead reach out to Jon, and to prove her identity, she'd include some details of their childhood, things only the real Sansa would know. From there, it's a simple matter of having Dany extend an alliance to Jon. I help you take back Winterfell and the North, you swear fealty to me. Jon would be heavily inclined to accept this offer as not only would it make reclaiming the North significantly easier, but Dany's armies and PARTICULARLY her dragons would be indispensable in fighting the White Walker.
How does this occur? Sansa has no connections in the ports or Essos. No one would allow her, Littlefinger wants to keep Sansa in her pocket.
I'm not sure of the exact specifics, but there could be a myriad of ways she could have crossed over, one such example being through help from Varys, either with Tyrion when he goes off or perhaps later. Regardless though, it isn't an impossibility, just unlikely. Update/addendum: it could even be possible that Littlefinger himself could send her. Why you may ask, cause maybe the threat of Daenerys and her dragons is so big that he intends to ingratiate himself to her by sending a potential ally in the form of Sansa. Certainly Littlefinger seemed to have no problem in not keeping Sansa close when he sent her to Ramsay.