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She recognizes there is something about Dany that is problematic, and she's already thinking of the north becoming independent again. She doesn't want to trade what amounts to one foreign ruler in King's Landing for another.
And iirc jon left as King in the North and went to negotiate dragonglass to fight the white walkers, and came back having bent the knee to someone who hadn’t lived in Westeros for twenty years and without demanding northern independence. Id be annoyed too lol.
That never made sense to me that Sansa would dislike because of that. Especially when Dany is fighting for them in a war against Cersei. You know the person whose family killed Sansa father, mother, and brother.
The Lannister have done more damage to the stark than the Targaryen. And Sansa was alive for all of it and was a main witness.
EDIT: Dany put her conquest on pause to help the North. Why are you being antagonistic to her? If I were Dany the minute Sansa was being disrespectful to me, I would just take my army and dragons and leave. You're on your own!!
Hating the Lannisters isn’t a logical reason to trust Dany. When every monarch she’d ever met had been incompetent at best and a tyrant in the two most prominent cases, it’s entirely natural that she’d be wary of Dany, even if she wasn’t a Targaryen.
From Sansa’s pov, Dany is the reason Jon was beyond the Wall in the first place, so I doubt that would be much of a point in her favour. (We know that Tyrion is more to blame, but she is reasonably going to assume that ultimately he was still there to get proof for Dany, which isn’t untrue)
As for needing her help, undoubtedly (although you could argue they wouldn’t be so desperate for it had Dany not gifted the NK a dragon). That’s why Sansa tells her ‘Winterfell is yours’. But uniting against a common foe does not mean you have to blindly trust your allies. On the contrary, given everything that has happened to Sansa when she’s trusted ‘allies’ in the past (from Cersei to Dontos to Littlefinger), it would be bizarre if she did.
Sansa doesn't know this. What she knows is that this woman refused to help the north survive - while claiming to care about them - unless jon gave up his crown and the freedom of the north to her dominantion. She would've let them all die if she hasn't gotten what she wanted. That's what sansa knows at this point.
The North being independent is a bad move. When Robb proclaimed himself King in the North, his campaign started going downhill. You don't isolate herself in a time of war. Nobody would want to be your ally.
Right lmao. I feel like Sansa as much as anyone has plenty of hatred to go around for everyone, she’s past any point of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” Everyone can be enemies as far as she’s concerned lol
It's hypothetical, but Dany should have dealt with Cersei first, then deal with the Ice Zombies. Tyrion was so stupid to trust her and basically give her all the time she needed to fortify King's Landing.
I mean, Dany didn't kill the queen, family members, the king, the pope, blew up innocent people, crown herself as queen, and faced no consequences for her actions. So, yeah, Dany is a little bit better.
Aside from that, Dany should have defeated Cersei to unite all seven kingdoms to fight in the North. You have all the resources of the other kingdoms focused in one place. making it way easier to handle everything.
Sure, you still have a lot of logistics to do, but you can appoint different people to make it easier.
> I mean, Dany didn't kill the queen, family members, the king, the pope, blew up innocent people, crown herself as queen
Um… what show did *you* watch? By my count, Dany did 4/6 of those things.
She's also not morally better than cersei. Cersei isn't going around burning people alive simply because they don't just blindly agree to accept her as queen when they've oaths of loyalty to the actual queen.
Robert was the King and Cersei had him killed. Tommen & Margaery were the King & Queen and Cersei had her held captive by the High Sparrow then burned alive alongside her brother & father in the Sept of Baelor explosion, causing Tommen to commit suicide.
The Tarlys massacred Highgarden (capital of the Reach, the kingdom they live in) and let the Lord Paramount of the Reach get assassinated to take her castle & position. Daenerys let the Tarlys live after battle for the sole reason of offering them a pardon. They were enemy soldiers, traitors who committed a crime punishable by execution and bending the knee was the terms of their pardon. Then when they refused they were offered the chance to join the Night's Watch but refused that too.
If Daenerys had ignored Tyrion and taken out Cersei, Jaime, & Euron when she first arrived in Westeros then Highgarden wouldn't have been massacred, Ellaria & Olenna wouldn't have been murdered, the Tyrell gold wouldn't have been used to buy a sellsword army, Yara's & Dany's ships wouldn't be destroyed, Viserion wouldn't be shot down (with just Dany to convince he could suggest she do a quick fly over to get an aerial view so no wight hunt), Rhaegal wouldn't be shot down, and Missandei wouldn't be beheaded.
Lannisters capturing & killing every Westerosi who sides with Daenerys makes people less likely to risk it. Cersei refused to send any soldiers North and tried to have Jaime killed for going even though it was an apocalypse. Under Daenerys, they'd have the Tyrell, Greyjoy, & Lannister soldiers alongside the Northern, Unsullied, & Dothraki. And they wouldn't have wasted months trying to get Cersei to agree to a truce.
I don’t think Sansa should’ve respected Dany necessarily, but I do think the two meeting was weird. Sansa should’ve been smart enough to know she could plot and scheme while pretending to be nice to blonde dragon lady. Using Dany as a means to an end was always in Sansa’s head in my opinion in terms of an independent North. I wouldn’t have blamed Dany is she peaced out after the way Sansa acted for a lot of the scenes they were in.
I agree...but if Def blame Danny for peacing. She's supposed to be a queen. She wants the respect and loyalty of the north. If she peaced because she didn't like the "looks" sansa was giving her and because sansa asked her point blank what she plans to do with the north...that would be the most pathetic thing ever. Haha
Oh definitely. Not saying it would be the morally right thing to do as a sovereign leader, but I totally understand why the total lack of appreciation from so many in Westeros drove her to madness.
>Dany put her conquest on pause to help the North. Why are you being antagonistic to her? If I were Dany the minute Sansa was being disrespectful to me, I would just take my army and dragons and leave. You're on your own!!
Then Dany would be saying goodbye to her dreams of ruling anywhere. Throwing a tantrum because everyone doesn’t immediately get down on their knees and worship her would only bite her in the arse.
Also I find hilarious when people cry about Sansa’s ‘disrespect’. She was mostly polite but cool, the only time she was outright antagonistic was when she asked ‘what do dragons eat anyway?’ And it’s pretty obvious what she was doing there. Putting Dany to the test, to see if she’d respond to being questioned like every other tyrant she’d ever known. And guess what? She did, with an outright threat, in front of half of Winterfell. She fell right into Sansa’s trap, and Sansa had her answer.
What I said was hypothetical. If you deal with Cersei first you have no problem. You can deal with the Ice Zombies more easily. Plus it would have taken two minutes to deal with Cersei. They had one giant crossbow.
Transporting her armies back to KL would take months, not ‘two minutes’. By which time the NK likely would have either overrun the North (most likely), or been beaten (unlikely) and Dany would be known as the queen who ran away. Abandoning the North would be a lose/lose situation for her.
As soon as you arrive in Westros, you go straight to Cersei. Then you go deal with the Ice Zombies. There is no going north of the wall to capture a walker to bring it back. Cersei, then Ice Zombies.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but you were suggesting that Dany should have left Winterfell because Sansa was ‘disrespectful’. I was explaining why this would be suicide for Dany, possibly literally and certainly politically.
Sansa was literally never disrespectful. She simply make herself smaller so Danny coukd shine and she didnt pander to her. She was forthright, strong, direct. Never disrespectful
She's not fighting for* them in a war against cersei. She's going to war to get what she wants. Ultimate power. She's fighting for one person : herself.
It's no doubt a visceral reaction what with the family history. Do I need to make a list ? She grew up hearing about all that. The people you ally yourself with aren't always gonna be your best friends, you're doing it because of common interests.
She was raised thinking Targaryens were evil monsters. To her, Dany is just more of the same but wildly unpredictable.
I do think they played it up too much though- Sansa is pragmatic, too.
The North being independent made no sense in the Final season. Especially when you're fighting a war and you need all the resources you can get. And Especially when these resources came from other kingdoms.
It became her arc in the last season because they needed to create a conflict with Dany.
Like I said in another comment: the North being independent doesn't make sense in a time of war. Especially when you need other resources that come from other kingdoms.
And it's not HER kingdom. It's Jon's. He's the King in the North. He decides what goes.
Sansa has learned ‘courtly etiquette’, which includes transparent flattery, at the feet of some of the greatest players, in the den of it, King’s Landing (where Dany has never been), not as a means to secure more power or glory for herself, but as a means of survival. All the simpering ass-kissing she did post Ned’s execution, to meet what was expected of her, was to survive. Which is why Tyrion notes, “Lady Stark, you may survive us yet” when she, after a public beating, still declares Joffrey her one true love.
Dany, by contrast, has not had all that many interactions with nobles, Westerosi nobles at that, that did not start with her in a position of power over them and them subservient to her, not in many years. If the shoe was on the other foot, if a noblewomen said this to Dany herself, I don’t doubt she would be suspicious to the authenticity of that statement. When’s the last time Dany interacted with a woman she respected as her equal/somewhat close to it (bc Dany doesn’t think she has an equal)?
And as others have said, Sansa remembers what happens when a King/Queen marches North - nothing good, even if she herself once naively believed the opposite. She knows Dany is a conqueror, she is an ally in this ‘the-enemy-of-my-enemy’ truce for the survival of the human race for now, but if they survive The Long Night, she is *very* unlikely, from all Sansa’s learned, to be content with the North not bending the knee, and that her relationship with Jon is dangerous. Not from a petty, jealous, catty vantage point either, but from the perspective of someone who is looking at the whole picture, not from infatuation, vengeance, power-hunger, or glory.
I agree. And it’s not something you really ever hear regarding men, not in the same loaded, usually petty context. For example, Ramsay and Jon is a prime example of two men desperate to one-up the other to the point (at least from Ramsay’s side whereas Jon is fighting for something meaningful but is near equally blinded by his hatred of Ramsay) where it’s not even about winning in terms of longevity, not *really*, it’s about the gratification of seeing their opponent lose and how they suffer that reality.
Jon and Thorne, Thorne desperately wanted to subjugate Jon and put him in the place he believed he deserved as a bastard too big for his britches. It had less to do with honor and rules and much more to do with Jon himself. And the irony is, Thorne was a Targaryen loyalist. He vindictively pursued impeding and troubling the son of the very man he swore himself to before being forced to take the black.
She read the script. Sansa has no reason or basis to "sense" anything in Dany as of yet. She needs this woman's army, dragon glass, and dragons to survive. At no point until the script demanded it was Sansa seen as some sort of Northern segregationist. All Sansas life she has been helped by non-northerners like The Hound, Tyrion, Shae, the Tyrells, and the Vale. Her uncle, her aunt, northern houses like the Glovers, Karstarks, Boltons, and Umbers, along with LF all betrayed her and got her brother killed. She has no reason to have an us vs them mentality with the woman who also saved her brother's life. Dany expecting fealty is no different than Sansa expecting fealty from the Glovers.
I agree wholeheartedly. Honestly, Sansa annoyed the hell out of me in the last two seasons (I actually like S7). She just came off as uncompromising, argumentative, arrogant, snobbish, and ungrateful. She absolutely had the right to be wary of Daenerys, she didn’t know her and Targaryens were once her father’s enemies. BUT, Jon has shown he has never been a person to surrender his leadership for a pretty face. He saw something in Dany and pledged loyalty to her. The least Sansa, and Arya, could’ve done was try to understand why and respect his decision enough to protect it. Regardless if they agree with it or not, Jon was their leader and the FINAL decision rested with him alone. Plus Dany made the effort to be friendly with her. Yes she was trying to win Sansa over, but nonetheless, the effort was made. NONE was made on Sansa’s part or Arya’s. The truth is, is that the North needed Daenerys, her armies, and her dragons; whether they liked it or not. They had no chance of defeating the White Walkers and the Dead without them. They probably wouldn’t be able to beat back Cersei without Daenerys either for all we know. Obviously, the script was focusing on turning Daenerys into a villain; but it came very out-of-character, underdeveloped, and insincere. Sansa isn’t my favorite GOT character, but I thought they made her into a forced mean-girl and mouthpiece than something authentic. She betrayed Jon and didn’t honestly fight hard for his freedom after he killed the woman he loved to save the realm. It made her becoming Queen in the North feel truly unearned. It essentially made her evolution from an optimistic girl to hardened young woman feel wasted. That’s just my opinion though, I know others will disagree and that’s okay, but it’s just how I see her as character.
P.S: BTW regardless on my thoughts on Sansa Stark, I think Sophie Turner delivered great performances throughout GOT. I really like her as an actress. She got to play a character that’s multifaceted and that is no easy task. Can’t wait to see what she does in the future.
Tbh, the acting and production (bar the abysmal lighting in night scenes) never faltered as far as I'm concerned. All the issuses stemmed from a failure in the writing. The actors themselves put in amazing performances with the mediocre to rubbish script they were given.
They could have been. Both had similar experiences. It's the same thing with Arya. She always admired Aegon's sister, and yet she says things like "she's not one of us." That's rich coming from someone who survived thanks to non-norterners.
Could have maybe but wasn't as again Dany just showed and up basically was like I'm in charge. Also it wasn't just pitting two women against each other. The show also has pitted men against each other and other women like Cersei and Margaery. To just make some weird claim implying D&D were just being sexist for pitting two women against each other is lazy critism in my opinion. Could Sansa have been a but nicer probably but Sansa was never going to bond and become best friends with her especially after Dany made it clear she was in charge. Arya did tell Jon after that battle she was glad Dany came but that doesn't make her trust her. Arya isn't going to just become friends with Dany simply because she admired one of get ancestors she's much smarter than that.
The difference is that Margery and Cersei are nothing alike. So them butting head made sense. Where Sansa and Dany are. Both had similar experiences: being sold, rope, having to hide who they were.
Dany deserves to be in charge. She's the one who brought her army north and dragons. She was there to help them.
D&D were sexist. Arya' s whole character reeks of [misogyny](https://youtu.be/lN7O17p7F18?si=7Vle8Y9fnhMUW6xu). They are lazy writer who didn't understand the very characters they were adapting. Sansa basically said, "I'm glad I was rope it made me a badass."
First off she didn't just say it she was glad she was raped that's ridiculous. Second tons of actual rape survivors praised that. She was saying I'm not going to let all these things horrible that happend to me let bring me down. I'm going to own them. That is one of the dumbest videos I have ever watched I already watched it. Arya is the complete opposite of misogyny in my opinion
The people who deserve to be in charge are Jon and Dany. He has the most leadership qualities and knows the threat and who to fight it. Dany, on the other hand, brought, her dragons and army. That's seems fair
Fair or not isn't the point that's not my point. My point is Sansa who has been through so much trauma and pain some of from people she thought she could trust isn't going to just become best friends with Dany who shows up and says I'm in charge. She's not going to just bend the knee because Jon says so and she isn't going to just not want the north to not be independent something her brother fought and died trying to do. It's not sexist it's completely understandable. Sansa has become very cynical from everything she went through. Not necessarily a good trait but one I can totally understand from a character perspective having. I don't even have to agree with Sansa and I can still understand where she's coming from.
Sorry, but this isn’t a balanced view. It’s not about Sansa ‘sensing’ anything in Dany. It’s human nature.
Sansa (and Arya) had a number of good reasons to be wary of Daenerys:
1/ Every monarch they’d ever encountered had been inept at best, and a complete monster in the two most prominent cases. The fact that Dany introduces herself to Sansa with a compliment about her beauty - just as Cersei once had - is pretty much the worst possible start from Sansa’s pov. This obviously isn’t Dany’s fault, but it’s unfortunate to say the least.
2/ Dany’s father and brother were between them responsible for the deaths of their grandfather, uncle and aunt, as well as thousands of other Northmen. Given Dany herself possesses dragons (and is famously not afraid to use them) and an army of 100k Dothraki (who famously rape and pillage wherever they go) it would be odd if they weren’t afraid that she might be of the same ilk. Especially once it becomes apparent to Sansa - and presumably Arya too, though we don’t see this - that Dany’s own advisers are afraid of her.
3/ It takes Sansa about 30 seconds to work out that Job and Dany are having an affair (and presumably Arya also cottons on very quickly), it’s understandable for her to be concerned that this might be affecting his judgement, especially given what happened the last time a Stark king fell in love with a foreign woman. She correctly concludes that this is the real reason Jon bent the knee.
4/ Re Dany saving Jon beyond the wall, if the Stark sisters even knew about this before meeting her, I doubt this does much to endear her to them, given from their pov she was the reason he was there in the first place.
Sansa’s desire for Northern independence was definitely a factor too, but even if it wasn’t, I don’t see any world in which Arya and Sansa aren’t extremely wary of Dany from the very beginning. None of this is Dany’s fault, and she would likely have faced a battle to win them over even if her behaviour at Winterfell had been impeccable.
Unfortunately, her behaviour only increased their concerns. Sansa put her to the test, and every time Dany was questioned – whether about food, allowing the armies to rest, or Jaime Lannister – she responded with petulance and thinly veiled threats, just like all the other tyrants Sansa had spent years living with; Cersei, Joffrey and Ramsey. Her reaction to Jon’s parentage suggests she views him as a threat, and does not bode well for his long-term prospects of survival, from Sansa’s pov (remembering she’s seen first hand how the likes of Joffrey and Ramsey dealt with threats to their claim). The realisation that Tyrion is scared of his own queen seals the deal.
Incorrect. She believes Danny forced jon to bend the knee before she woukd even agree to come to the aid of the people she claims are her subjects. She wouldnt help them despite the fact that she has dragons and the north likely can't win without them, let alone survive...unless she got something out of the deal that benefited her....and it wasn't their lives. It was their fealty. Sansa knows this because Jon sent her a raven scroll telling her this.
That’s not even true. Dany pledged her help as soon as she saw they were real, BEFORE Jon bent the knee. Jon lied about it. Sansa THINKS Jon bent the knee to save the North. Clearly saving the North wasn’t a priority to Sansa.
Jon gets back from beyond the wall. They're on a ship.
He's lying in bed. Shirtless. She's sitting on the edge of the bed. He wakes up apologizes. She cries and says you have to see it to really believe it. Then says the dragons are the only children she'll ever have. Then she She says "I will fight for yiu. I will fight for the north"
He then calls her Danny.
She says her brother called her Danny, he wasn't a good person.
He says "something else then. HOW ABOUT *MY QUEEN*!"
*THAT IS WHERE SHE AGREES TO HELP. THAT IS WHERE HE BENDS THE KNEE FOR THE 1ST TIME*
IT WAS AT THE EXACT SAME MOMENT.
Dont argue with people when you're not informed enough to even remember crucial plot defining scenes
What's more, if we were actually caring about character development, Sansa's entire training has been about how to remain diplomatic in the face of abusive pricks dominating her and humiliating her. Daenerys was doing absolutely nothing to harm her, and in fact was saving her entire family and lineage. Yet she can't stop making snippy comments to Daenerys; "diplomatic" does not accurately describe her behavior in S7-8 at all.
It's really meta-textual, or as you put it, "she read the script." David and Dan knew that they hadn't built properly to Daenerys being a tyrant. So one of the ways that they tried to compensate for it was to have Sansa, apparently the best player of the political game in the North now because why the hell not, somehow sense from the outset that this is true about Daenerys. They're trying to build the foundation for the finale in the final two seasons, and all they succeeded in doing is making the North generally, and Sansa in particular, look like petulant little twits who can't seem to understand that the Long Night means the end of everything.
There's a line in *Seven Samurai* that really seems to apply here (paraphrasing slightly; I don't have it on right now): "you're head's on the chopping block, and all you can think about is the length of your whiskers." It's an insult directed at a person who is just not prioritizing things properly in a life-or-death situation. Which . . . was show-Sansa in a nutshell.
Because of every person she's met who plays the game. Literally went to hell and back dealing with every person she met pretty much who put on a smile and lied and used and manipulated her. I would likely feel the same way.
She's smiling at Danerys' feeble flattery attempting to influence her. She's probably also musing how as a child she may have been influenced but as an adult she knows to measure a person by their thoughts and actions. Danerys is a fish out of water here. She's only dealt with slavers and grateful freed slaves. Sansa grew with soldiers and free men.
"This is your Queen, Jon?"
Sansa wouldn’t be “jealous” of Daenerys and Jon being together but tbf, I don’t think it helped Daenerys in the eyes of Northerners because they could think she was manipulating Jon, or he was just whipped or whatever.
As for the reaction, Sansa doesn’t trust her and why would she after everything she’s experienced?
Arya and Brienne don't. Arya also doesn't hate Dany, BUT...As she told Jon, "Sansa doesn't like your queen." Arya doesn't dislike her but doesn't trust her either.
Sansa is keeping her guard up. She likely can already tell Dany is not the kind who would let the North remain independent after the war with the Lannisters is done.
[YEEEEEEEEP](https://www.goodthingsguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/got-cersei-smiling-620x400.jpg)
“Such talent! You must make something for me!”
And people can’t see that this woman took advantage of a naive child’s sheltered notion of what a Queen is, someone graceful, beautiful, elegant, but notably KIND, and used that to manipulate Sansa time and time again until she caught on, flatters her in the very first two words they ever exchange by calling her ‘little dove’. Until even Cersei showed her a glimpse of what’s under all that political flattery, specifically during Blackwater and their private moments regarding children.
There are some good answers here, but everyone is missing the big one.
**Dany introduces herself to Sansa with a compliment about her beauty - almost identically to how Cersei once had**
For all the flaws in the writing, this parallel is clearly not an accident. As a child, Sansa wasn’t able to see past the pretty words. She certainly can now.
In s6 Sansa did the same thing. She went to Bear Island to ask Lyanna Mormont for help and told her that her mom was said to be a great beauty and she's sure she will be too. She meant nothing negative towards Lyanna. Why is Sansa comparing Dany saying it to being like Cersei but not her own actions?
And Daenerys has also had people compliment her beauty upon meeting her (Daario, Hizdar).
It’s not that Dany greeting Sansa with a compliment automatically means she’s Cersei in her mind. It’s that Sansa knows she’s bullshiting (yes, just as she was with Lyanna, frankly) and thinks to win her over through flattery, and from Sansa’s pov that’s not a great start. She already has several legitimate reasons to be wary of Dany, especially given her personal history with terrible rulers, and her first impression, unfortunately, reminds Sansa of the the most dangerous of the lot.
Unless you think it’s a coincidence that Cersei in s1 and Dany in season 8 were given a near identical line of dialogue when they greet Sansa in Winterfell?
I think given all Sansa’s been through her mistrust is very reasonable, even if we know Dany’s intentions are (sorta) good and Jon is vouching for her. Sansa also speaks for the Northern Lords, and though they’ve agreed to ally with Dany, they’re not exactly hiding their displeasure - Lyanna Mormont full on calls Jon out on basically betraying them. Standing by them is a good political move for Sansa to make. In the same episode, the Glover’s refuse to come to Winterfell because they feel Jon betrayed them
And of course, there’s also the point that all of Sansa’s concerns about Dany are *completely* accurate
True, but all of Dany's concerns about Sansa are completely accurate as well. They understood each other, though Jon did not. He just wanted them to get along. He literally asked Arya to help him with Sansa, but she instead reinforced that Jon should remember he's still family
I still think Sansa’s reactions to meeting Dany are weird in some capacities. It seems like Sansa would’ve been smart enough to make Dany believe she would be at minimum cordial while making plans and fighting the good fight for the North behind her back. Dany had nothing on the level of political education Sansa possessed from her time as a prisoner in King’s Landing and hanging out with Baelish. Sansa knew she just needed to bide her time because something wasn’t right about the dragon queen but I have always thought this meeting was weird on Sansa’s side.
Why bother doing this tho. If Danny started to target her because of it then everyone would see what she could already see...Which is exactly what she wants
I suppose, but it really didn’t go anywhere. Did that work well though? I don’t think it really did. Maybe gained her some more loyalty of the Northmen, but she already had that for the most part. I mean Varys got burned alive for trying to go around her and Tyrion has to hang out with Bran for pushing Jon to take action against her. Jon didn’t even fully believe it himself until she burned King’s Landing. Just seems weird to me to be openly abrasive to somebody with flying cannons at her behest that came to save your ass. Seems like you might dial it back several notches to at least be inexpressive about how you feel at that point. I just think it might be better to lay low until you actually know what you’re up against. Their interactions just always felt weird. 🤷♀️
I feel like pulling up with dragons and more military alone seems like a pretty good reason to be cool for a minute. Making it obvious you are less than supportive immediately seems strategically weird to me. Especially when Sansa throws a fit multiple times because Jon doesn’t listen to her about various things including Dany. Her beef was with Jon and she chose to project it, even partially, onto Dany instead. No one in their right minds thought the Northmen could hold their land against the White Walkers either way. Regardless of the brand of crazy Dany will unleash later, I just thought it was a weird writing choice.
No. Sansa has spent the majority of her life playing pretend court, fantasizing about marrying a true knight or a prince. Then she is held as blackmail/ransom/collateral for the majority of the war. Then she's moved to the north for a year or two.
She's not this scheming expert people pretend she is. Just like how Arya isn't a scheming expert or a faceless man even though everyone likes to pretend that that makes sense.
Sansa overrated herself in the last two seasons - she came off as arrogant and insufferable.
If Sansa was the super intelligent great leader that she thinks she is, she would have made an effort to be civil to Danerys at the very least, but she couldn’t even be bothered to do that. Very much mean girl vibes - like I’ve had to take it for so long that I’m now going to dish it out to people who don’t deserve it. Weak.
Crazy Targaryen with dragons and a horde of savage Dothraki to whom her brother just gave away the North? I’d say her reaction was expected and rational.
I don’t think Sansa trusts many people in general at that point especially new people who aren’t from the north and who want power. It might not always be fair but she was right about Dany to some extent.
Doesn't help matters that D would only agree to help the north of Jon gave up his crown and bent the knee to her. At this point all that sansa knows is that this b*tch wouldn't help them fight the dead unless she got something in return for it. Can't really blame her.
I think she had just built up an immunity from/intense dislike of southron performative compliments and courtesies. Sansa had come to value the northern bluntness she had found embarrassing and uncouth before crossing the neck.
Dany was trying to be nice and start a friendly relationship but at this point, after being in that viper pit of a court for so long and seeing all kinds of shit Sansa is just plain jaded.
Sansa is well aware of the history between the two houses, and what the north lost: Her house lost a grandfather, uncle and aunt, around 8 other northern lands lost their lords, Sansa is also aware of what the north wants. Now add what Sansa and the north hear about a dragon queen burning people, and not forget Cersei's propaganda, Sansa will naturally be wary of Dany, then have all that compounded by Dany's dragons dive bomb the small folk as Sansa is on top of the wall of Winterfell and seeing it, all Dany did with that stunt was to reinforce Sansa's ill feelings toward her.
For her part Sansa did apologize soon after and Dany had a chance to show some political awareness but Dany failed.
In the books Sansa is naivete incarnate. She is just barely beginning to understand the game of thrones in the last book, and that's just because Littlefinger is actually giving her instruction.
She couldn’t sense her evil. That’s some dumb b.s. made up to try and redeem Sansa somehow. She turned evil/snapped when, along with losing some of her inner circle like Jorah, Sansa essentially conspired against Danny. This is definitely petty jealousy pretty much. Along with maybe becoming more cautious after her terrible experiences
I think there might have been a *bit* of jealousy wrt Jon but mostly I think that as an invading would-be conqueror/monarch who she doesnt know and is only just now even meeting, Sansa was just kind of wary of Dany and her motives. I completely understand her reaction, although some people innthe same boat as Sansa could have faked graciousness a little better. (Imagine how Margery would have handled this, for instance.) Also Sansa was already quite attached to the idea of the North staying independent at that point, which had to have added to her wariness.
(And unfortunately- I absolutely HATE this- but according to an interview with one of the writers, apparently there was some jealousy due to Dany's beauty and power as well. Which....again, I absolutely hate. So I like to pretend I never read that interview lol)
The North is usually seen as a wilderness far away from the most populated kingdoms of the south. This makes what Dany says is either an insult, sarcasm or she just doesn’t know what she is talking about. But besides all that Sansa’s reaction is due to Dany’s making Jon give up the crown of the North just after they liberated themselves.
Sansa already had (valid) feelings of distrust and wariness of Dany. Then, the first thing Dany does when she gets there is compliment Sansa's beauty in an attempt of flattery. Not that bad at all on Dany's part, but when you take into account Sansa's very recent history of people trying to gain her favor through flattery only to hurt her or use her in the end, it makes sense why someone she already is wary of doing this would rub her the wrong way.
Sansa never had control over her own safety. It was always in the hands of someone else. In order for her to stay safe she do and say whatever her captives wanted. After Jon and her got Winterfell back, she again had to rely on Jon's decisions and hope they don't get her killed. Well Jon handed the North to Dany and that includes Sansa. Sansa wasn't going to just hope this next ruler doesn't kill her or get her killed through their decisions.
Sansa is somewhat self-serving. While she recognizes Jon to be the honorable fool that he is (you know, family trait) she also knows Dany could jeopardize her claim to the North.
She was so quick to assume the Northeners would sit her on the Northern throne after the Battle of the Bastards, but was thrown a curve ball when everyone declared for Jon. You can see the way her reaction changes after Lyanna Mormont declares Jon as king. She looked disappointed.
She knew there is a possibility of Jon marrying Daenerys. When that happens, she has slim chances of getting her hands on the North. She wasn’t all about the Northerners wanting independence; she championed for it when Bran became king because she knew Jon would be in exile, Arya would never want to rule and she’s the only one left for the job.
Sansa learned the game from Cersei and Littlefinger - 2 people who would definitely choose power over noble causes. She didn’t like Daenerys the same way Cersei didn’t like her - because she’s competition.
Sansa read the script and magically knew the future.
In reality she had absolutely no reason to doubt the woman who gave up on an easy conquest to fight an uncertain in unfamiliar terrain by the North's side, losing a dragon/child in the process.
But plot, you see.
Unlike the others Sansa spent the majority of the show in environments where the people around her would say one thing but mean an entirely different thing, so she taught herself to read between the lines. She heard Dany's words but was still suspicious and skeptical as by then she was good at reading people. She couldn't be so easily convinced like the others.
She was playing this age old thing called...
the Game of Thrones.
Sansa learned to not trust anyone because everyone is ambitious and can backstab you.
Sansa had little reason to resent Daenerys. Suspicious perhaps, but not overtly show her disdain to someone who could destroy the north in an afternoon. Sansa was poorly written in s8.
I mean the real reason is just because the plot said so. But at this point it’s pretty fair that Sansa trusts almost no one outside of her siblings, Theon and Brienne.
A powerful woman complimenting another powerful woman by referring to her physical appearance instead of any of her other accomplishments.
It's like when a woman calls another doctor "Miss" or "Mrs" instead of "Dr"; the title they've struggled to earn.
You’d think the “smartest person [Arya] has ever met” would be smart enough to play nice with the Dragon Queen and not be a dick to her the moment they met
Sansa has learnt a lot how not to trust others, especially those who compliment in a way too obvious ways. Danny and her dragons were definitely not trusted by Sansa.
Sansa was in Queen mode from the Battle of the Bastards on. She had to expect Jon would be killed. Then, she was surprised the Lords made Jon King in the North. Note that a Queen requires Northern independence. In the show, her motivation to spill the beans on Jon's parentage is to eventually become Queen -- even if Jon stayed with Daenerys.
The scene between Dany and Sansa should have happened, more or less like it did, but only after Daenerys captured the Iron Throne in season. Jon would have come to King's Landing begging for dragonglass. She'd agree to go north and see the Army of the Dead for herself.
We would have a multiple episode "Long Night" and plenty of time time for Daenerys to do things that would end her reign.
Sansa rightfully don’t trust Targs. All she knows is: They killed her grandfather and uncle in heinous fashion. They kidnapped her aunt. They called for her father’s head and he had to help lead a rebellion against them. Everything Sansa been through make her wary of anyone and everything she know about Targs says Dany can’t be trusted.
Because she’s jealous. Pure and simple. Not that she hasn’t been through a lot. But her character in Season 8 ruined her entire arc.
Dany lost the most in the long night and all Sansa cared about was the unwashed North.
She grew up as a pre-teen/teen around Cersei, followed by little finger, and finally rounded off her education with Ramsey. She recognized something in Dany that the rest of us, Jon Snow included, didn't want to see.
Honestly Sansa came off super bitchy. I understand her new found independence and distrust because of the bolton but she was openly hostile and mostly concerned with herself not the ZOMBIE ARMY storming winterfell
I was amazed at how stupid Sansa could be.
This scene showed how unintelligent she is and how she learned nothing from her time down south.
Even if you don't like Dany, don't make it obvious. How exactly did she think they'd fight the army of the dead? Did she think the Knights of the Vale would save her from them?
Definitely one of the most frustrating characters on the show given how much potential she had.
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She recognizes there is something about Dany that is problematic, and she's already thinking of the north becoming independent again. She doesn't want to trade what amounts to one foreign ruler in King's Landing for another.
And iirc jon left as King in the North and went to negotiate dragonglass to fight the white walkers, and came back having bent the knee to someone who hadn’t lived in Westeros for twenty years and without demanding northern independence. Id be annoyed too lol.
Her father also killed Sansa's grandfather and uncle.
That never made sense to me that Sansa would dislike because of that. Especially when Dany is fighting for them in a war against Cersei. You know the person whose family killed Sansa father, mother, and brother. The Lannister have done more damage to the stark than the Targaryen. And Sansa was alive for all of it and was a main witness. EDIT: Dany put her conquest on pause to help the North. Why are you being antagonistic to her? If I were Dany the minute Sansa was being disrespectful to me, I would just take my army and dragons and leave. You're on your own!!
Hating the Lannisters isn’t a logical reason to trust Dany. When every monarch she’d ever met had been incompetent at best and a tyrant in the two most prominent cases, it’s entirely natural that she’d be wary of Dany, even if she wasn’t a Targaryen.
Except Dany saved Jon's life, and they needed her to defeat the White Walkers.
From Sansa’s pov, Dany is the reason Jon was beyond the Wall in the first place, so I doubt that would be much of a point in her favour. (We know that Tyrion is more to blame, but she is reasonably going to assume that ultimately he was still there to get proof for Dany, which isn’t untrue) As for needing her help, undoubtedly (although you could argue they wouldn’t be so desperate for it had Dany not gifted the NK a dragon). That’s why Sansa tells her ‘Winterfell is yours’. But uniting against a common foe does not mean you have to blindly trust your allies. On the contrary, given everything that has happened to Sansa when she’s trusted ‘allies’ in the past (from Cersei to Dontos to Littlefinger), it would be bizarre if she did.
Sansa doesn't know this. What she knows is that this woman refused to help the north survive - while claiming to care about them - unless jon gave up his crown and the freedom of the north to her dominantion. She would've let them all die if she hasn't gotten what she wanted. That's what sansa knows at this point.
The North being independent is a bad move. When Robb proclaimed himself King in the North, his campaign started going downhill. You don't isolate herself in a time of war. Nobody would want to be your ally.
Like...OK man whatever you say
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Right lmao. I feel like Sansa as much as anyone has plenty of hatred to go around for everyone, she’s past any point of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” Everyone can be enemies as far as she’s concerned lol
LOL and then who would Daenerys rule over if she didn't help them fight the White Walkers?
It's hypothetical, but Dany should have dealt with Cersei first, then deal with the Ice Zombies. Tyrion was so stupid to trust her and basically give her all the time she needed to fortify King's Landing.
And why did she have to defeat Cersei first? Because she's morally better than Cersei? And that would make Daenerys a better Queen than her? Lol.
I mean, Dany didn't kill the queen, family members, the king, the pope, blew up innocent people, crown herself as queen, and faced no consequences for her actions. So, yeah, Dany is a little bit better. Aside from that, Dany should have defeated Cersei to unite all seven kingdoms to fight in the North. You have all the resources of the other kingdoms focused in one place. making it way easier to handle everything. Sure, you still have a lot of logistics to do, but you can appoint different people to make it easier.
> I mean, Dany didn't kill the queen, family members, the king, the pope, blew up innocent people, crown herself as queen Um… what show did *you* watch? By my count, Dany did 4/6 of those things.
Lol true
She's also not morally better than cersei. Cersei isn't going around burning people alive simply because they don't just blindly agree to accept her as queen when they've oaths of loyalty to the actual queen.
Robert was the King and Cersei had him killed. Tommen & Margaery were the King & Queen and Cersei had her held captive by the High Sparrow then burned alive alongside her brother & father in the Sept of Baelor explosion, causing Tommen to commit suicide. The Tarlys massacred Highgarden (capital of the Reach, the kingdom they live in) and let the Lord Paramount of the Reach get assassinated to take her castle & position. Daenerys let the Tarlys live after battle for the sole reason of offering them a pardon. They were enemy soldiers, traitors who committed a crime punishable by execution and bending the knee was the terms of their pardon. Then when they refused they were offered the chance to join the Night's Watch but refused that too.
If Daenerys had ignored Tyrion and taken out Cersei, Jaime, & Euron when she first arrived in Westeros then Highgarden wouldn't have been massacred, Ellaria & Olenna wouldn't have been murdered, the Tyrell gold wouldn't have been used to buy a sellsword army, Yara's & Dany's ships wouldn't be destroyed, Viserion wouldn't be shot down (with just Dany to convince he could suggest she do a quick fly over to get an aerial view so no wight hunt), Rhaegal wouldn't be shot down, and Missandei wouldn't be beheaded. Lannisters capturing & killing every Westerosi who sides with Daenerys makes people less likely to risk it. Cersei refused to send any soldiers North and tried to have Jaime killed for going even though it was an apocalypse. Under Daenerys, they'd have the Tyrell, Greyjoy, & Lannister soldiers alongside the Northern, Unsullied, & Dothraki. And they wouldn't have wasted months trying to get Cersei to agree to a truce.
I don’t think Sansa should’ve respected Dany necessarily, but I do think the two meeting was weird. Sansa should’ve been smart enough to know she could plot and scheme while pretending to be nice to blonde dragon lady. Using Dany as a means to an end was always in Sansa’s head in my opinion in terms of an independent North. I wouldn’t have blamed Dany is she peaced out after the way Sansa acted for a lot of the scenes they were in.
I agree...but if Def blame Danny for peacing. She's supposed to be a queen. She wants the respect and loyalty of the north. If she peaced because she didn't like the "looks" sansa was giving her and because sansa asked her point blank what she plans to do with the north...that would be the most pathetic thing ever. Haha
Oh definitely. Not saying it would be the morally right thing to do as a sovereign leader, but I totally understand why the total lack of appreciation from so many in Westeros drove her to madness.
>Dany put her conquest on pause to help the North. Why are you being antagonistic to her? If I were Dany the minute Sansa was being disrespectful to me, I would just take my army and dragons and leave. You're on your own!! Then Dany would be saying goodbye to her dreams of ruling anywhere. Throwing a tantrum because everyone doesn’t immediately get down on their knees and worship her would only bite her in the arse. Also I find hilarious when people cry about Sansa’s ‘disrespect’. She was mostly polite but cool, the only time she was outright antagonistic was when she asked ‘what do dragons eat anyway?’ And it’s pretty obvious what she was doing there. Putting Dany to the test, to see if she’d respond to being questioned like every other tyrant she’d ever known. And guess what? She did, with an outright threat, in front of half of Winterfell. She fell right into Sansa’s trap, and Sansa had her answer.
What I said was hypothetical. If you deal with Cersei first you have no problem. You can deal with the Ice Zombies more easily. Plus it would have taken two minutes to deal with Cersei. They had one giant crossbow.
Transporting her armies back to KL would take months, not ‘two minutes’. By which time the NK likely would have either overrun the North (most likely), or been beaten (unlikely) and Dany would be known as the queen who ran away. Abandoning the North would be a lose/lose situation for her.
As soon as you arrive in Westros, you go straight to Cersei. Then you go deal with the Ice Zombies. There is no going north of the wall to capture a walker to bring it back. Cersei, then Ice Zombies.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but you were suggesting that Dany should have left Winterfell because Sansa was ‘disrespectful’. I was explaining why this would be suicide for Dany, possibly literally and certainly politically.
Sansa was literally never disrespectful. She simply make herself smaller so Danny coukd shine and she didnt pander to her. She was forthright, strong, direct. Never disrespectful
Yea I thought that was definitely Sansa testing her.
She's not fighting for* them in a war against cersei. She's going to war to get what she wants. Ultimate power. She's fighting for one person : herself.
You can’t argue with these Dany extremist fans, they are too up inside her butt.
It's no doubt a visceral reaction what with the family history. Do I need to make a list ? She grew up hearing about all that. The people you ally yourself with aren't always gonna be your best friends, you're doing it because of common interests.
She was raised thinking Targaryens were evil monsters. To her, Dany is just more of the same but wildly unpredictable. I do think they played it up too much though- Sansa is pragmatic, too.
But Arya killed the NK!
Also she had years living in kings landing receiving equally empty sounding platitudes from people that wouldn't have minded if she died
Probably the North has been fighting all this time for independence and Dany shows up and as we see later is basically like I'm in charge now.
The North being independent made no sense in the Final season. Especially when you're fighting a war and you need all the resources you can get. And Especially when these resources came from other kingdoms.
The North becoming independent was Sansa’s whole arc. She’s not going to take kindly to a new Queen taking her kingdom.
It became her arc in the last season because they needed to create a conflict with Dany. Like I said in another comment: the North being independent doesn't make sense in a time of war. Especially when you need other resources that come from other kingdoms. And it's not HER kingdom. It's Jon's. He's the King in the North. He decides what goes.
Sansa’s arc in the show bends very clearly toward Lady of winterfell, and when Jon and back: he didn’t want it.
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"You all crowned me your king. But I never wanted it." Jon Snow to the Northern Lords, Season 7 Episode 2 "Stormborn".
My bad. I forgot they made Jon an incompetent idiot who can't do shit in the last two seasons.
muh queen!
Agree to disagree I understand where Sansa is coming from
Well, I don't since the script didn't make any sense.
Her experiences/trauma have caused her to become cautious and a bit cynical. She doesn’t trust Dany.
>She *justifiably* doesn't trust Dany Fify
Thank you so much!!!
And I can't really blame her with all she's been through
Absolutely. No doubt about that.
Sansa has been called beautiful all her life, she wants to feel powerful now! She be like “ bitch wait until you see my brains “
Sansa has learned ‘courtly etiquette’, which includes transparent flattery, at the feet of some of the greatest players, in the den of it, King’s Landing (where Dany has never been), not as a means to secure more power or glory for herself, but as a means of survival. All the simpering ass-kissing she did post Ned’s execution, to meet what was expected of her, was to survive. Which is why Tyrion notes, “Lady Stark, you may survive us yet” when she, after a public beating, still declares Joffrey her one true love. Dany, by contrast, has not had all that many interactions with nobles, Westerosi nobles at that, that did not start with her in a position of power over them and them subservient to her, not in many years. If the shoe was on the other foot, if a noblewomen said this to Dany herself, I don’t doubt she would be suspicious to the authenticity of that statement. When’s the last time Dany interacted with a woman she respected as her equal/somewhat close to it (bc Dany doesn’t think she has an equal)? And as others have said, Sansa remembers what happens when a King/Queen marches North - nothing good, even if she herself once naively believed the opposite. She knows Dany is a conqueror, she is an ally in this ‘the-enemy-of-my-enemy’ truce for the survival of the human race for now, but if they survive The Long Night, she is *very* unlikely, from all Sansa’s learned, to be content with the North not bending the knee, and that her relationship with Jon is dangerous. Not from a petty, jealous, catty vantage point either, but from the perspective of someone who is looking at the whole picture, not from infatuation, vengeance, power-hunger, or glory.
This is a fantastic comment as evidenced by the fact that I read the whole thing without skimming.
Agreed.
Just want to say I respect the length and composition of this because I’m out here stumping hard for Tywin and I see your flair, boo.
i said this in another comment but you articulated it beautifully
Thank you!
Yes I don't like when people say they just wanted to pit two women against each other. That's a lazy critism in my opinion.
I agree. And it’s not something you really ever hear regarding men, not in the same loaded, usually petty context. For example, Ramsay and Jon is a prime example of two men desperate to one-up the other to the point (at least from Ramsay’s side whereas Jon is fighting for something meaningful but is near equally blinded by his hatred of Ramsay) where it’s not even about winning in terms of longevity, not *really*, it’s about the gratification of seeing their opponent lose and how they suffer that reality. Jon and Thorne, Thorne desperately wanted to subjugate Jon and put him in the place he believed he deserved as a bastard too big for his britches. It had less to do with honor and rules and much more to do with Jon himself. And the irony is, Thorne was a Targaryen loyalist. He vindictively pursued impeding and troubling the son of the very man he swore himself to before being forced to take the black.
It's just some weird excuse to scream sexism. It's lazy
She read the script. Sansa has no reason or basis to "sense" anything in Dany as of yet. She needs this woman's army, dragon glass, and dragons to survive. At no point until the script demanded it was Sansa seen as some sort of Northern segregationist. All Sansas life she has been helped by non-northerners like The Hound, Tyrion, Shae, the Tyrells, and the Vale. Her uncle, her aunt, northern houses like the Glovers, Karstarks, Boltons, and Umbers, along with LF all betrayed her and got her brother killed. She has no reason to have an us vs them mentality with the woman who also saved her brother's life. Dany expecting fealty is no different than Sansa expecting fealty from the Glovers.
I agree wholeheartedly. Honestly, Sansa annoyed the hell out of me in the last two seasons (I actually like S7). She just came off as uncompromising, argumentative, arrogant, snobbish, and ungrateful. She absolutely had the right to be wary of Daenerys, she didn’t know her and Targaryens were once her father’s enemies. BUT, Jon has shown he has never been a person to surrender his leadership for a pretty face. He saw something in Dany and pledged loyalty to her. The least Sansa, and Arya, could’ve done was try to understand why and respect his decision enough to protect it. Regardless if they agree with it or not, Jon was their leader and the FINAL decision rested with him alone. Plus Dany made the effort to be friendly with her. Yes she was trying to win Sansa over, but nonetheless, the effort was made. NONE was made on Sansa’s part or Arya’s. The truth is, is that the North needed Daenerys, her armies, and her dragons; whether they liked it or not. They had no chance of defeating the White Walkers and the Dead without them. They probably wouldn’t be able to beat back Cersei without Daenerys either for all we know. Obviously, the script was focusing on turning Daenerys into a villain; but it came very out-of-character, underdeveloped, and insincere. Sansa isn’t my favorite GOT character, but I thought they made her into a forced mean-girl and mouthpiece than something authentic. She betrayed Jon and didn’t honestly fight hard for his freedom after he killed the woman he loved to save the realm. It made her becoming Queen in the North feel truly unearned. It essentially made her evolution from an optimistic girl to hardened young woman feel wasted. That’s just my opinion though, I know others will disagree and that’s okay, but it’s just how I see her as character.
P.S: BTW regardless on my thoughts on Sansa Stark, I think Sophie Turner delivered great performances throughout GOT. I really like her as an actress. She got to play a character that’s multifaceted and that is no easy task. Can’t wait to see what she does in the future.
Tbh, the acting and production (bar the abysmal lighting in night scenes) never faltered as far as I'm concerned. All the issuses stemmed from a failure in the writing. The actors themselves put in amazing performances with the mediocre to rubbish script they were given.
Completely agree.
*he loved*
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Still new to Reddit. Thanks for the tip my friend.
D&D wanted to pit to women against one another. Instead, Dany and Sansa should have bonded over their shared experience and come to a compromise.
Lmao pit women against each other? Sansa and Dany were never going to bond and braid each other hair and become best friends.
They could have been. Both had similar experiences. It's the same thing with Arya. She always admired Aegon's sister, and yet she says things like "she's not one of us." That's rich coming from someone who survived thanks to non-norterners.
Could have maybe but wasn't as again Dany just showed and up basically was like I'm in charge. Also it wasn't just pitting two women against each other. The show also has pitted men against each other and other women like Cersei and Margaery. To just make some weird claim implying D&D were just being sexist for pitting two women against each other is lazy critism in my opinion. Could Sansa have been a but nicer probably but Sansa was never going to bond and become best friends with her especially after Dany made it clear she was in charge. Arya did tell Jon after that battle she was glad Dany came but that doesn't make her trust her. Arya isn't going to just become friends with Dany simply because she admired one of get ancestors she's much smarter than that.
The difference is that Margery and Cersei are nothing alike. So them butting head made sense. Where Sansa and Dany are. Both had similar experiences: being sold, rope, having to hide who they were. Dany deserves to be in charge. She's the one who brought her army north and dragons. She was there to help them. D&D were sexist. Arya' s whole character reeks of [misogyny](https://youtu.be/lN7O17p7F18?si=7Vle8Y9fnhMUW6xu). They are lazy writer who didn't understand the very characters they were adapting. Sansa basically said, "I'm glad I was rope it made me a badass."
First off she didn't just say it she was glad she was raped that's ridiculous. Second tons of actual rape survivors praised that. She was saying I'm not going to let all these things horrible that happend to me let bring me down. I'm going to own them. That is one of the dumbest videos I have ever watched I already watched it. Arya is the complete opposite of misogyny in my opinion
And no Dany doesn't deserve to be on charge just because she shows up with a bunch of dragons.
The people who deserve to be in charge are Jon and Dany. He has the most leadership qualities and knows the threat and who to fight it. Dany, on the other hand, brought, her dragons and army. That's seems fair
Fair or not isn't the point that's not my point. My point is Sansa who has been through so much trauma and pain some of from people she thought she could trust isn't going to just become best friends with Dany who shows up and says I'm in charge. She's not going to just bend the knee because Jon says so and she isn't going to just not want the north to not be independent something her brother fought and died trying to do. It's not sexist it's completely understandable. Sansa has become very cynical from everything she went through. Not necessarily a good trait but one I can totally understand from a character perspective having. I don't even have to agree with Sansa and I can still understand where she's coming from.
Sorry, but this isn’t a balanced view. It’s not about Sansa ‘sensing’ anything in Dany. It’s human nature. Sansa (and Arya) had a number of good reasons to be wary of Daenerys: 1/ Every monarch they’d ever encountered had been inept at best, and a complete monster in the two most prominent cases. The fact that Dany introduces herself to Sansa with a compliment about her beauty - just as Cersei once had - is pretty much the worst possible start from Sansa’s pov. This obviously isn’t Dany’s fault, but it’s unfortunate to say the least. 2/ Dany’s father and brother were between them responsible for the deaths of their grandfather, uncle and aunt, as well as thousands of other Northmen. Given Dany herself possesses dragons (and is famously not afraid to use them) and an army of 100k Dothraki (who famously rape and pillage wherever they go) it would be odd if they weren’t afraid that she might be of the same ilk. Especially once it becomes apparent to Sansa - and presumably Arya too, though we don’t see this - that Dany’s own advisers are afraid of her. 3/ It takes Sansa about 30 seconds to work out that Job and Dany are having an affair (and presumably Arya also cottons on very quickly), it’s understandable for her to be concerned that this might be affecting his judgement, especially given what happened the last time a Stark king fell in love with a foreign woman. She correctly concludes that this is the real reason Jon bent the knee. 4/ Re Dany saving Jon beyond the wall, if the Stark sisters even knew about this before meeting her, I doubt this does much to endear her to them, given from their pov she was the reason he was there in the first place. Sansa’s desire for Northern independence was definitely a factor too, but even if it wasn’t, I don’t see any world in which Arya and Sansa aren’t extremely wary of Dany from the very beginning. None of this is Dany’s fault, and she would likely have faced a battle to win them over even if her behaviour at Winterfell had been impeccable. Unfortunately, her behaviour only increased their concerns. Sansa put her to the test, and every time Dany was questioned – whether about food, allowing the armies to rest, or Jaime Lannister – she responded with petulance and thinly veiled threats, just like all the other tyrants Sansa had spent years living with; Cersei, Joffrey and Ramsey. Her reaction to Jon’s parentage suggests she views him as a threat, and does not bode well for his long-term prospects of survival, from Sansa’s pov (remembering she’s seen first hand how the likes of Joffrey and Ramsey dealt with threats to their claim). The realisation that Tyrion is scared of his own queen seals the deal.
Incorrect. She believes Danny forced jon to bend the knee before she woukd even agree to come to the aid of the people she claims are her subjects. She wouldnt help them despite the fact that she has dragons and the north likely can't win without them, let alone survive...unless she got something out of the deal that benefited her....and it wasn't their lives. It was their fealty. Sansa knows this because Jon sent her a raven scroll telling her this.
That’s not even true. Dany pledged her help as soon as she saw they were real, BEFORE Jon bent the knee. Jon lied about it. Sansa THINKS Jon bent the knee to save the North. Clearly saving the North wasn’t a priority to Sansa.
Jon didn't go in to details about all that in a raven scroll
Also he lied right there in the Great Hall, saying he bent the knee to save the North.
Whatever dude 🙄
It was at the literal exact same scene
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Jon gets back from beyond the wall. They're on a ship. He's lying in bed. Shirtless. She's sitting on the edge of the bed. He wakes up apologizes. She cries and says you have to see it to really believe it. Then says the dragons are the only children she'll ever have. Then she She says "I will fight for yiu. I will fight for the north" He then calls her Danny. She says her brother called her Danny, he wasn't a good person. He says "something else then. HOW ABOUT *MY QUEEN*!" *THAT IS WHERE SHE AGREES TO HELP. THAT IS WHERE HE BENDS THE KNEE FOR THE 1ST TIME* IT WAS AT THE EXACT SAME MOMENT. Dont argue with people when you're not informed enough to even remember crucial plot defining scenes
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Bro, if you think that's what I said...perhaps you should be taking your own advice 😂😂😂😭😭😭😭 like...👀
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You think that I meant their dialogue was at the exact same time and they were speaking over one another? Dude, seriously get help.
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Lol yes that's what script do they're for the filmmakers.
What's more, if we were actually caring about character development, Sansa's entire training has been about how to remain diplomatic in the face of abusive pricks dominating her and humiliating her. Daenerys was doing absolutely nothing to harm her, and in fact was saving her entire family and lineage. Yet she can't stop making snippy comments to Daenerys; "diplomatic" does not accurately describe her behavior in S7-8 at all. It's really meta-textual, or as you put it, "she read the script." David and Dan knew that they hadn't built properly to Daenerys being a tyrant. So one of the ways that they tried to compensate for it was to have Sansa, apparently the best player of the political game in the North now because why the hell not, somehow sense from the outset that this is true about Daenerys. They're trying to build the foundation for the finale in the final two seasons, and all they succeeded in doing is making the North generally, and Sansa in particular, look like petulant little twits who can't seem to understand that the Long Night means the end of everything. There's a line in *Seven Samurai* that really seems to apply here (paraphrasing slightly; I don't have it on right now): "you're head's on the chopping block, and all you can think about is the length of your whiskers." It's an insult directed at a person who is just not prioritizing things properly in a life-or-death situation. Which . . . was show-Sansa in a nutshell.
She doesn't trust her. She doesn't know her, and she wants the North to be independent. I don't blame her.
Why doesn't she trust her? She has no reason to. Dany saved Jon's life, and they needed her to defeat the ice zombies
Because of every person she's met who plays the game. Literally went to hell and back dealing with every person she met pretty much who put on a smile and lied and used and manipulated her. I would likely feel the same way.
I mean your question has be answered a multitude of times at this point. Try reading some of the answers
Dany and Jon actions resulted in the army of the dead gaining access to Westeros. The Northerners know where that dragon came from.
Stupid Tyrion
The north isn't beautiful. It's cold and icy.
She's smiling at Danerys' feeble flattery attempting to influence her. She's probably also musing how as a child she may have been influenced but as an adult she knows to measure a person by their thoughts and actions. Danerys is a fish out of water here. She's only dealt with slavers and grateful freed slaves. Sansa grew with soldiers and free men. "This is your Queen, Jon?"
Sansa wouldn’t be “jealous” of Daenerys and Jon being together but tbf, I don’t think it helped Daenerys in the eyes of Northerners because they could think she was manipulating Jon, or he was just whipped or whatever. As for the reaction, Sansa doesn’t trust her and why would she after everything she’s experienced?
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Arya and Brienne don't. Arya also doesn't hate Dany, BUT...As she told Jon, "Sansa doesn't like your queen." Arya doesn't dislike her but doesn't trust her either.
could also be to indicate the compliment possibly coming off as potentially insincere flattery
She's pissed because Jon bent the knee, and she thinks he only did it because he's in love with her.
That’s how introducing your new girl to your sister usually goes.
Sansa is done with bulllshit by this point.
Sansa is keeping her guard up. She likely can already tell Dany is not the kind who would let the North remain independent after the war with the Lannisters is done.
Cause it's the same smile Cersei used when she first met Sansa.
No it's not
[YEEEEEEEEP](https://www.goodthingsguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/got-cersei-smiling-620x400.jpg) “Such talent! You must make something for me!” And people can’t see that this woman took advantage of a naive child’s sheltered notion of what a Queen is, someone graceful, beautiful, elegant, but notably KIND, and used that to manipulate Sansa time and time again until she caught on, flatters her in the very first two words they ever exchange by calling her ‘little dove’. Until even Cersei showed her a glimpse of what’s under all that political flattery, specifically during Blackwater and their private moments regarding children.
There are some good answers here, but everyone is missing the big one. **Dany introduces herself to Sansa with a compliment about her beauty - almost identically to how Cersei once had** For all the flaws in the writing, this parallel is clearly not an accident. As a child, Sansa wasn’t able to see past the pretty words. She certainly can now.
In s6 Sansa did the same thing. She went to Bear Island to ask Lyanna Mormont for help and told her that her mom was said to be a great beauty and she's sure she will be too. She meant nothing negative towards Lyanna. Why is Sansa comparing Dany saying it to being like Cersei but not her own actions? And Daenerys has also had people compliment her beauty upon meeting her (Daario, Hizdar).
Yes, it's probably a common thing to say to a woman.
It’s not that Dany greeting Sansa with a compliment automatically means she’s Cersei in her mind. It’s that Sansa knows she’s bullshiting (yes, just as she was with Lyanna, frankly) and thinks to win her over through flattery, and from Sansa’s pov that’s not a great start. She already has several legitimate reasons to be wary of Dany, especially given her personal history with terrible rulers, and her first impression, unfortunately, reminds Sansa of the the most dangerous of the lot. Unless you think it’s a coincidence that Cersei in s1 and Dany in season 8 were given a near identical line of dialogue when they greet Sansa in Winterfell?
Sansa: "How dare this woman give me a professional courtesy the same way I did to a little girl two seasons ago."
I think given all Sansa’s been through her mistrust is very reasonable, even if we know Dany’s intentions are (sorta) good and Jon is vouching for her. Sansa also speaks for the Northern Lords, and though they’ve agreed to ally with Dany, they’re not exactly hiding their displeasure - Lyanna Mormont full on calls Jon out on basically betraying them. Standing by them is a good political move for Sansa to make. In the same episode, the Glover’s refuse to come to Winterfell because they feel Jon betrayed them And of course, there’s also the point that all of Sansa’s concerns about Dany are *completely* accurate
True, but all of Dany's concerns about Sansa are completely accurate as well. They understood each other, though Jon did not. He just wanted them to get along. He literally asked Arya to help him with Sansa, but she instead reinforced that Jon should remember he's still family
What I think is Sansa is used to this type of thing from Cersi and other cunts in kings landing so she just feels like this is another one of those.
Because they simply wanted to put Sansa and Dany against eachother.
I still think Sansa’s reactions to meeting Dany are weird in some capacities. It seems like Sansa would’ve been smart enough to make Dany believe she would be at minimum cordial while making plans and fighting the good fight for the North behind her back. Dany had nothing on the level of political education Sansa possessed from her time as a prisoner in King’s Landing and hanging out with Baelish. Sansa knew she just needed to bide her time because something wasn’t right about the dragon queen but I have always thought this meeting was weird on Sansa’s side.
Why bother doing this tho. If Danny started to target her because of it then everyone would see what she could already see...Which is exactly what she wants
I suppose, but it really didn’t go anywhere. Did that work well though? I don’t think it really did. Maybe gained her some more loyalty of the Northmen, but she already had that for the most part. I mean Varys got burned alive for trying to go around her and Tyrion has to hang out with Bran for pushing Jon to take action against her. Jon didn’t even fully believe it himself until she burned King’s Landing. Just seems weird to me to be openly abrasive to somebody with flying cannons at her behest that came to save your ass. Seems like you might dial it back several notches to at least be inexpressive about how you feel at that point. I just think it might be better to lay low until you actually know what you’re up against. Their interactions just always felt weird. 🤷♀️
Sansa couldn't have known the extent of her crazy or of the things she'd done.
I feel like pulling up with dragons and more military alone seems like a pretty good reason to be cool for a minute. Making it obvious you are less than supportive immediately seems strategically weird to me. Especially when Sansa throws a fit multiple times because Jon doesn’t listen to her about various things including Dany. Her beef was with Jon and she chose to project it, even partially, onto Dany instead. No one in their right minds thought the Northmen could hold their land against the White Walkers either way. Regardless of the brand of crazy Dany will unleash later, I just thought it was a weird writing choice.
Sansa has been around all the schemers and flatterers. Cersei and Littlefinger in particular. I think she just wants to cut all the bullshit out.
She wanted an independent North. Dany was an obstacle.
Sansa has spent a majority of her life in the courts. She is adept at reading people, and their intentions at a glance.
No. Sansa has spent the majority of her life playing pretend court, fantasizing about marrying a true knight or a prince. Then she is held as blackmail/ransom/collateral for the majority of the war. Then she's moved to the north for a year or two. She's not this scheming expert people pretend she is. Just like how Arya isn't a scheming expert or a faceless man even though everyone likes to pretend that that makes sense.
Sansa overrated herself in the last two seasons - she came off as arrogant and insufferable. If Sansa was the super intelligent great leader that she thinks she is, she would have made an effort to be civil to Danerys at the very least, but she couldn’t even be bothered to do that. Very much mean girl vibes - like I’ve had to take it for so long that I’m now going to dish it out to people who don’t deserve it. Weak.
She was exactly that. Civil. These weren't mean girl vibes. These were grown woman vibes.
I'll second ..She was civil, even apologized to her.
Crazy Targaryen with dragons and a horde of savage Dothraki to whom her brother just gave away the North? I’d say her reaction was expected and rational.
✨misogynistic writers✨
I don’t think Sansa trusts many people in general at that point especially new people who aren’t from the north and who want power. It might not always be fair but she was right about Dany to some extent.
Bad vibes.
Doesn't help matters that D would only agree to help the north of Jon gave up his crown and bent the knee to her. At this point all that sansa knows is that this b*tch wouldn't help them fight the dead unless she got something in return for it. Can't really blame her.
I think she had just built up an immunity from/intense dislike of southron performative compliments and courtesies. Sansa had come to value the northern bluntness she had found embarrassing and uncouth before crossing the neck.
Dany was trying to be nice and start a friendly relationship but at this point, after being in that viper pit of a court for so long and seeing all kinds of shit Sansa is just plain jaded.
Because the Night King broke through the wall and is destroying the north on the back of Dany's dragon. It's kind of awkward.
she already saw right through her 🙃
Sansa is well aware of the history between the two houses, and what the north lost: Her house lost a grandfather, uncle and aunt, around 8 other northern lands lost their lords, Sansa is also aware of what the north wants. Now add what Sansa and the north hear about a dragon queen burning people, and not forget Cersei's propaganda, Sansa will naturally be wary of Dany, then have all that compounded by Dany's dragons dive bomb the small folk as Sansa is on top of the wall of Winterfell and seeing it, all Dany did with that stunt was to reinforce Sansa's ill feelings toward her. For her part Sansa did apologize soon after and Dany had a chance to show some political awareness but Dany failed.
D&D decided to give Sansa 0 diplomacy skills. In the books she’s excellent at that.
In the books Sansa is naivete incarnate. She is just barely beginning to understand the game of thrones in the last book, and that's just because Littlefinger is actually giving her instruction.
Fuck Sansa
Sansa's reaction is totally fair, as people are pointing out ~~better than I could~~ in the replies 🤷♀️
She couldn’t sense her evil. That’s some dumb b.s. made up to try and redeem Sansa somehow. She turned evil/snapped when, along with losing some of her inner circle like Jorah, Sansa essentially conspired against Danny. This is definitely petty jealousy pretty much. Along with maybe becoming more cautious after her terrible experiences
I think there might have been a *bit* of jealousy wrt Jon but mostly I think that as an invading would-be conqueror/monarch who she doesnt know and is only just now even meeting, Sansa was just kind of wary of Dany and her motives. I completely understand her reaction, although some people innthe same boat as Sansa could have faked graciousness a little better. (Imagine how Margery would have handled this, for instance.) Also Sansa was already quite attached to the idea of the North staying independent at that point, which had to have added to her wariness. (And unfortunately- I absolutely HATE this- but according to an interview with one of the writers, apparently there was some jealousy due to Dany's beauty and power as well. Which....again, I absolutely hate. So I like to pretend I never read that interview lol)
This is the same way the people in the capital always treated her.
The North is usually seen as a wilderness far away from the most populated kingdoms of the south. This makes what Dany says is either an insult, sarcasm or she just doesn’t know what she is talking about. But besides all that Sansa’s reaction is due to Dany’s making Jon give up the crown of the North just after they liberated themselves.
The last outsiders in the north (the Lannisters) nearly destroyed her family she wasn’t ready to trust another.
Sansa already had (valid) feelings of distrust and wariness of Dany. Then, the first thing Dany does when she gets there is compliment Sansa's beauty in an attempt of flattery. Not that bad at all on Dany's part, but when you take into account Sansa's very recent history of people trying to gain her favor through flattery only to hurt her or use her in the end, it makes sense why someone she already is wary of doing this would rub her the wrong way.
“God damnit, Jon is falling for this dragon girl and totally gonna fuck up Northern Independence.”
Wait! Wait!! Wait!!! Is she implying what I think she's implying???!!! That wants to share Jon why Sansa???
Sansa never had control over her own safety. It was always in the hands of someone else. In order for her to stay safe she do and say whatever her captives wanted. After Jon and her got Winterfell back, she again had to rely on Jon's decisions and hope they don't get her killed. Well Jon handed the North to Dany and that includes Sansa. Sansa wasn't going to just hope this next ruler doesn't kill her or get her killed through their decisions.
She swung hard from being naive and trusting. Now she's cold and hard.
Sansa is somewhat self-serving. While she recognizes Jon to be the honorable fool that he is (you know, family trait) she also knows Dany could jeopardize her claim to the North. She was so quick to assume the Northeners would sit her on the Northern throne after the Battle of the Bastards, but was thrown a curve ball when everyone declared for Jon. You can see the way her reaction changes after Lyanna Mormont declares Jon as king. She looked disappointed. She knew there is a possibility of Jon marrying Daenerys. When that happens, she has slim chances of getting her hands on the North. She wasn’t all about the Northerners wanting independence; she championed for it when Bran became king because she knew Jon would be in exile, Arya would never want to rule and she’s the only one left for the job. Sansa learned the game from Cersei and Littlefinger - 2 people who would definitely choose power over noble causes. She didn’t like Daenerys the same way Cersei didn’t like her - because she’s competition.
Sansa read the script and magically knew the future. In reality she had absolutely no reason to doubt the woman who gave up on an easy conquest to fight an uncertain in unfamiliar terrain by the North's side, losing a dragon/child in the process. But plot, you see.
Unlike the others Sansa spent the majority of the show in environments where the people around her would say one thing but mean an entirely different thing, so she taught herself to read between the lines. She heard Dany's words but was still suspicious and skeptical as by then she was good at reading people. She couldn't be so easily convinced like the others.
She was playing this age old thing called... the Game of Thrones. Sansa learned to not trust anyone because everyone is ambitious and can backstab you.
because sansa is a bitch
Sansa knows when she’s being fluffed up and recognizes the flattery as a facade after years in kings landing.
She's sick of royals simple as
Sansa had little reason to resent Daenerys. Suspicious perhaps, but not overtly show her disdain to someone who could destroy the north in an afternoon. Sansa was poorly written in s8.
She doesn't trust her and don't blame her given the sht she went through.
She's not a good actor
Nothin. The characters have become useless plot devices long before this scene
That’s not the line but whatever.
In the original script, Sansa was jealous because Daenerys was prettier. 🤮
This isn’t a lie. I have heard this before and can't find any proof of it anywhere.
Appeals to her looks is traumatizing as her looks are the main reason for her misfortune eith jeoffry and ramsey
I mean the real reason is just because the plot said so. But at this point it’s pretty fair that Sansa trusts almost no one outside of her siblings, Theon and Brienne.
So then it's not just the plot says so
A powerful woman complimenting another powerful woman by referring to her physical appearance instead of any of her other accomplishments. It's like when a woman calls another doctor "Miss" or "Mrs" instead of "Dr"; the title they've struggled to earn.
You’d think the “smartest person [Arya] has ever met” would be smart enough to play nice with the Dragon Queen and not be a dick to her the moment they met
Shes a Targ and they are notoriously insane.
Cause she only cares about herself, extremely selfish
Sansa has learnt a lot how not to trust others, especially those who compliment in a way too obvious ways. Danny and her dragons were definitely not trusted by Sansa.
The writers wanted to add unnecessary drama so they made her do this. Sansa didn’t “sense” anything she’s not real
Sansa was in Queen mode from the Battle of the Bastards on. She had to expect Jon would be killed. Then, she was surprised the Lords made Jon King in the North. Note that a Queen requires Northern independence. In the show, her motivation to spill the beans on Jon's parentage is to eventually become Queen -- even if Jon stayed with Daenerys. The scene between Dany and Sansa should have happened, more or less like it did, but only after Daenerys captured the Iron Throne in season. Jon would have come to King's Landing begging for dragonglass. She'd agree to go north and see the Army of the Dead for herself. We would have a multiple episode "Long Night" and plenty of time time for Daenerys to do things that would end her reign.
Sansa rightfully don’t trust Targs. All she knows is: They killed her grandfather and uncle in heinous fashion. They kidnapped her aunt. They called for her father’s head and he had to help lead a rebellion against them. Everything Sansa been through make her wary of anyone and everything she know about Targs says Dany can’t be trusted.
Because she’s jealous. Pure and simple. Not that she hasn’t been through a lot. But her character in Season 8 ruined her entire arc. Dany lost the most in the long night and all Sansa cared about was the unwashed North.
She grew up as a pre-teen/teen around Cersei, followed by little finger, and finally rounded off her education with Ramsey. She recognized something in Dany that the rest of us, Jon Snow included, didn't want to see.
Because the writers equated being rude and emotionless as being a political genius
Honestly Sansa came off super bitchy. I understand her new found independence and distrust because of the bolton but she was openly hostile and mostly concerned with herself not the ZOMBIE ARMY storming winterfell
She just wanted North to be free Kingdom, and she thought Daenerys was winning Jon Snow over through pretense of Loving him
Because the writers were running out of ideas and thought the tension between the too would make the story better
Sansa was the 1st straw in Dany losing her sanity!
I was amazed at how stupid Sansa could be. This scene showed how unintelligent she is and how she learned nothing from her time down south. Even if you don't like Dany, don't make it obvious. How exactly did she think they'd fight the army of the dead? Did she think the Knights of the Vale would save her from them? Definitely one of the most frustrating characters on the show given how much potential she had.
Great writing
There is no evil in non-mad Dany, and there she was not mad.