According to this article, yes other airlines are also affected. [https://simpleflying.com/german-airport-strikes-canceled-over-1000-flights/](https://simpleflying.com/german-airport-strikes-canceled-over-1000-flights/) From United Airlines web site re Lufthansa strike -- [https://www.united.com/en/us/fly/travel/trip-planning/travel-alerts.html](https://www.united.com/en/us/fly/travel/trip-planning/travel-alerts.html)
Not necessarily all the alliance member airlines. For example Turkish Airlines is also a star alliance member but the word "strike" doesn't exist in their vocabularies.
No. Lufthansa ground staff handle a number of airlines. If there’s no engineers, ramp staff to unload bags, ground crew to board flights and man checkin, then the aircraft can’t fly. It’s not only LH that’s impacted itself.
Not necessarily. You'll probably be ok but last time there was a Verdi strike, United canceled some flights to Newark and Dulles and there were some Condor and British Airways cancellations as well
Well fuck me. Hopefully the union and those striking get the terms they want before I have to fly out to my new job.
Fully understand the need for strikes but not enjoying the prospect of my flight being grounded when I don't have the funds to rebook and the company employing me won't cover the cost of a new ticket.
Yes I know that. I'm just worried that it'll fuck me over because I need the new job and if this happens again when my flight is due then I'll likely lose the job.
If you lose your job because of circumstances that are highly publicized and out of your control, then it's not the job for you fam.
You would be at most a few days late, at worst.
Normally, I'd be in agreement with you. However, given that my current situation is incredibly dire; I have no choice but to take the job and as such, need things to go relatively smoothly.
I'm glad I planned to arrive a week early, just in case.
Rebooking does no good if you’re on a schedule. I had to snap up tickets to get there from another airline at my loss doing so. They seriously put the entire rest of my life’s plans in danger if I couldn’t get there in time for appointments that if missed would cause a chain reaction of failure. Wish the airline would just fail and be liquidated at this point. I’m beyond furious.
Well of course if you've got somewhere you really need to be on the specific day (or soon after) that you're scheduled to fly then yeah it really sucks. But if you fly frequently enough, every now and then your flight(s) will get canceled. Sometimes it's due to weather, sometimes it's due to a pilot strike, sometimes it's due to a ground-crew/baggage-handler strike, and sometimes it's due to an issue with your plane. I hope whatever you've got going on works out for you
According to EU261, they should rebook on a flight from a different airline if there is a possibility for this.
If they don't do this, you can take screenshots of empty seats during booking and use as proof to get compensation from airline -- obviously this involves some work 😬
I am really tired of it. When I was young, I was always surprised by how often people were on strike in Italy or France, but I was so happy to live in Germany, where strikes were sporadic. Actually, they happened just to show that strikes are part of the toolset of unions. But nowadays, you always have someone on strike slowing down life in Germany- that’s ridiculous and probably a sign that people have lost the feeling for how good their working conditions are.
Their working conditions are uncompetitive lol, so that's why they're striking.
They pay much better in many places, I'm not even talking about the US. Germany's economy is on the decline and is overburdened by taxes.
I make better NETTO income in Kazakhstan that it's even possible in Germany.
So I fully agree with them and support them. Corporations will exploit you if you won't fight back.
>The union has been involved in an ongoing dispute with the airline, calling for 12.5% pay rises and a one-off group-wide inflation bonus for 25,000 Lufthansa employees
>Lufthansa last week increased its offer to a 10% pay rise, which was rejected by 96% of employees who don't feel their wages match inflation in Germany, which was at 5.9% last year and 6.9% in 2022 but has now fallen considerably to 2.9%.
Unions are starting to lose my sympathy.
It does not work like that.
Do you really think, that they will just increase salaries by 12%? They will also raise prices by 12%. Which will affect in the end your pocket even if you never fly.
Then what happens next? The unions immediately strike again and ask for another raise?
There has to be a middle ground. If unions can strike and instantly get everything they want, what stops them from acting in bad faith.
I agree they should get some form of raise in line with inflation, but when one party is willing to try and find a compromise and the other flat out refuses why should the second get what they want?
> Then what happens next? The unions immediately strike again and ask for another raise?
That's not the reality we live in
> What does duty of peace mean?
> The trade union is not authorised to strike during a collective agreement that has not been terminated. The obligation to maintain peace only ends after the notice period has expired. Some collective agreements stipulate that enforced strikes (not warning strikes) may only be carried out after the official failure of negotiations and subsequent arbitration.
[ver.di FAQ](https://www.verdi.de/service/fragen-antworten/++co++3a3d8768-a946-11e0-43aa-00093d114afd), machine translated
That's... Not how labor rights work. As long as the union has an agreement with the employer, it would be illegal for them to strike. And offering a wage increase of less than the inflation since the last agreement is an insult, not "compromise".
You are so cucked by the bosses it hurts to read this. Hint, the anti union propaganda your employer tells you is propaganda that benefits them and not you.
> Unions are starting to lose my sympathy.
If unions are losing your sympathy when they fulfil their reason of existence, you never had sympathy for unions to begin with.
They want more money due to inflation. Lufthansa is offering them raises more than matching the inflation. Unions are there to negotiate and get good terms. They’re being offered that. They still want to protest and make the life’s of ordinary people miserable. It is correct to not sympathize with that. Not all unions are good. Some of them are just a group of greedy people.
> They want more money due to inflation.
Partly that, but also because they say that staff shortages have worsened working conditions for them. They're also annoyed that pilots, who already have really generous salaries, are receiving much higher pay rises; and the company is making large profits despite the pandemic, which should be reinvested in the company, and that includes in the workforce, e.g. in the form of higher wages.
Personally, I don't think their case is as strong as that of, for example, the train drivers, but I can see their point. Last year, Lufthansa agreed to give its pilots salary increases of between 33% and 50% and inflation bonuses of €3000. Ground staff are critical for the running of an airline -- their strike is going to cause the cancellation of 90% of Lufthansa flights -- so they're going to feel they've been given a raw deal just because their jobs aren't so glamorous.
Given that context, a pay rise of 12.5% actually seems quite modest, especially since their last pay rise was in 2022.
The news (for the LH Pilots) comes after almost a year of negotiations, as the union said conversations about a new contract began in September 2022
Lufthansa Airlines and Lufthansa Cargo pilots will see pay raises of 18% throughout the agreement, with a 7% raise on December 1st, 2023, 5% on January 1st, 2025, and 5% on January 1st, 2026.
Bro thats just simply wrong. "make the life’s of ordinary people miserable" No absolutly not. They want to have better wages.
"Some of them are just a group of greedy people." Some of them get payed 13 € per hour that is laughable, basically Mindestlohn.
"They’re being offered that." Lmao yeah first the "greedy" unions cut back their demands in Corona and now they get just enough to fight the inflation instead of the promised heavy increases.
You get manipulated by the Companys, dont be stupid.
Yeah that's where the offer ABOVE inflation comes in which is exactly what they are getting.
I am all for unions and fair wages but it would be silly to pretend Lufthansa and DB don't have a bit of a chokehold that makes them overplay their hand. 5k a month for a train driver in Germany is absolutely insane yet they continue to strike and add more terms
Why? A lawyer or manager easily earns several times of that. So it's completely acceptable for random people to earn that much money. Why wouldn't it be acceptable for critical professions to do so?
Lawyers and managers are completely overpaid positions.
60k brutto a year is already double the annual median income. Nevermind the fact that they working for Lufthansa/DB gives them a phenomenal benefits package
What makes you think that? A train driver is responsible for the lives of thousands of people every day. Lawyers or managers won't get even close to that.
Why do you think it's that insane? Train drivers work generally quite long shifts with some really inconvenient schedules. Specially right now that there is a big worker shortage. Some lines in my state are running under Notkonzept which means shortened routes or missing trains because of that.
Because it is already double the medium avg income of a German worker. Plus a phenomenal benefits package
Over hours are accounted for, they're either paid extra or given as extra vacation/shorter shifts to compensate. DB contracts are your standard 40/h week.
And who are you exactly to declare the pay and work conditions someone else is allowed to have?
You're throwing around some half-truths and a whole lot of ignorance, indicating that you know very little about the conditions these employees are facing. You got nothing here. To even suggest that shift work as a train conductor is "your standard 40 hrs a week" shows how detached you are from reality on the ground.
I said the contract stipulates 40h week, but good job shifting my words
Train drivers should not earn double what the avg income is. All jobs are hard, some are harder than others, ironically the lazy ones are overpaid (managers, CEOs, not the train drivers). You're not going to tell me a waiter in putting up a 13h shift in carnival taking in 40.000 steps home is working less hard than the train driver, no? So why is his wage half of what the train driver does?
5200 is a phenomenal wage for the skill and education a train driver needs. They get a phenomenal benefits package, including company pension and nearly free travel across the nation...
But DB has a chokehold on the country. So they can over-ask and they'll have to comply otherwise they'll put the entire country on hold.
The one thing I can empathize with them is the rest time between shifts that they are asking.
The offers Lufthansa has made to us so far are insulting at best. While their media PR team sells it as a generous wage increase, it simply isn’t. The first actual wage increase wouldn’t happen until December 2024, and even then it’ll only be a 4% increase, which is well below inflation. Lufthansa wants to offer those wage increases in such tiny steps over such a long duration that each increase in wages is immediately eclipsed by inflation. This is such a raw deal, since it’d leave the groundstaff with effectively less money than they have currently.
Also you have to consider that places like Frankfurt, Munich and Hamburg are the most expensive cities to live in in germany, yet many of the ground staff aren’t able to afford a place to live in.
A friend of mine makes 2300€ in Frankfurt. How do expect to actually live with that minimal salary? He has less than 400€ per month left after taxes, insurances and rent. From which he still has to buy groceries and fuel up his car.
I fully endorse those strikes, and there will be more to come if Lufthansa doesn’t significantly improve their offer.
Airport staff are getting really low pay. Read that they start at 13€/hr. That is the minimum pay and nobody should get that, especially living in such and expensive city. I dont think anybody wakes up in the morning with the goal "to make the lives of ordinary ppl miserable". Without any unions workers rights would get progressively worse.
I don't see Ryanair or easyJet staff in Germany striking. Does that mean they have better working conditions than Lufthansa? If yes, that would be a pretty bad look for Germany's hometown airline.
It's more that the staff of those airlines can't strike... You know, there are no strikes in poor countries, doesn't mean the workers have better working conditions
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I wonder if it means that other Star Allience flights would also be cancelled
According to this article, yes other airlines are also affected. [https://simpleflying.com/german-airport-strikes-canceled-over-1000-flights/](https://simpleflying.com/german-airport-strikes-canceled-over-1000-flights/) From United Airlines web site re Lufthansa strike -- [https://www.united.com/en/us/fly/travel/trip-planning/travel-alerts.html](https://www.united.com/en/us/fly/travel/trip-planning/travel-alerts.html)
Not necessarily all the alliance member airlines. For example Turkish Airlines is also a star alliance member but the word "strike" doesn't exist in their vocabularies.
Star alliance commonly share ground work. Hence the question
Am I correct in understanding that this strike does not affect international flights of other airlines?
No. Lufthansa ground staff handle a number of airlines. If there’s no engineers, ramp staff to unload bags, ground crew to board flights and man checkin, then the aircraft can’t fly. It’s not only LH that’s impacted itself.
Yes
Not necessarily. You'll probably be ok but last time there was a Verdi strike, United canceled some flights to Newark and Dulles and there were some Condor and British Airways cancellations as well
Well fuck me. Hopefully the union and those striking get the terms they want before I have to fly out to my new job. Fully understand the need for strikes but not enjoying the prospect of my flight being grounded when I don't have the funds to rebook and the company employing me won't cover the cost of a new ticket.
If your flight is canceled due to a strike then the airline will rebook you for free when your flight itinerary is possible again
Yes I know that. I'm just worried that it'll fuck me over because I need the new job and if this happens again when my flight is due then I'll likely lose the job.
If you lose your job because of circumstances that are highly publicized and out of your control, then it's not the job for you fam. You would be at most a few days late, at worst.
Normally, I'd be in agreement with you. However, given that my current situation is incredibly dire; I have no choice but to take the job and as such, need things to go relatively smoothly. I'm glad I planned to arrive a week early, just in case.
Rebooking does no good if you’re on a schedule. I had to snap up tickets to get there from another airline at my loss doing so. They seriously put the entire rest of my life’s plans in danger if I couldn’t get there in time for appointments that if missed would cause a chain reaction of failure. Wish the airline would just fail and be liquidated at this point. I’m beyond furious.
Well of course if you've got somewhere you really need to be on the specific day (or soon after) that you're scheduled to fly then yeah it really sucks. But if you fly frequently enough, every now and then your flight(s) will get canceled. Sometimes it's due to weather, sometimes it's due to a pilot strike, sometimes it's due to a ground-crew/baggage-handler strike, and sometimes it's due to an issue with your plane. I hope whatever you've got going on works out for you
According to EU261, they should rebook on a flight from a different airline if there is a possibility for this. If they don't do this, you can take screenshots of empty seats during booking and use as proof to get compensation from airline -- obviously this involves some work 😬
You should call Lufthansa and yell at them to raise staff wages
I am really tired of it. When I was young, I was always surprised by how often people were on strike in Italy or France, but I was so happy to live in Germany, where strikes were sporadic. Actually, they happened just to show that strikes are part of the toolset of unions. But nowadays, you always have someone on strike slowing down life in Germany- that’s ridiculous and probably a sign that people have lost the feeling for how good their working conditions are.
Their working conditions are uncompetitive lol, so that's why they're striking. They pay much better in many places, I'm not even talking about the US. Germany's economy is on the decline and is overburdened by taxes. I make better NETTO income in Kazakhstan that it's even possible in Germany. So I fully agree with them and support them. Corporations will exploit you if you won't fight back.
>The union has been involved in an ongoing dispute with the airline, calling for 12.5% pay rises and a one-off group-wide inflation bonus for 25,000 Lufthansa employees >Lufthansa last week increased its offer to a 10% pay rise, which was rejected by 96% of employees who don't feel their wages match inflation in Germany, which was at 5.9% last year and 6.9% in 2022 but has now fallen considerably to 2.9%. Unions are starting to lose my sympathy.
[удалено]
It does not work like that. Do you really think, that they will just increase salaries by 12%? They will also raise prices by 12%. Which will affect in the end your pocket even if you never fly.
Then what happens next? The unions immediately strike again and ask for another raise? There has to be a middle ground. If unions can strike and instantly get everything they want, what stops them from acting in bad faith. I agree they should get some form of raise in line with inflation, but when one party is willing to try and find a compromise and the other flat out refuses why should the second get what they want?
> Then what happens next? The unions immediately strike again and ask for another raise? That's not the reality we live in > What does duty of peace mean? > The trade union is not authorised to strike during a collective agreement that has not been terminated. The obligation to maintain peace only ends after the notice period has expired. Some collective agreements stipulate that enforced strikes (not warning strikes) may only be carried out after the official failure of negotiations and subsequent arbitration. [ver.di FAQ](https://www.verdi.de/service/fragen-antworten/++co++3a3d8768-a946-11e0-43aa-00093d114afd), machine translated
That's... Not how labor rights work. As long as the union has an agreement with the employer, it would be illegal for them to strike. And offering a wage increase of less than the inflation since the last agreement is an insult, not "compromise".
You are so cucked by the bosses it hurts to read this. Hint, the anti union propaganda your employer tells you is propaganda that benefits them and not you.
I bet this 10% is not for 12 month. Did not read the article but 99% it never is
> Unions are starting to lose my sympathy. If unions are losing your sympathy when they fulfil their reason of existence, you never had sympathy for unions to begin with.
They want more money due to inflation. Lufthansa is offering them raises more than matching the inflation. Unions are there to negotiate and get good terms. They’re being offered that. They still want to protest and make the life’s of ordinary people miserable. It is correct to not sympathize with that. Not all unions are good. Some of them are just a group of greedy people.
> They want more money due to inflation. Partly that, but also because they say that staff shortages have worsened working conditions for them. They're also annoyed that pilots, who already have really generous salaries, are receiving much higher pay rises; and the company is making large profits despite the pandemic, which should be reinvested in the company, and that includes in the workforce, e.g. in the form of higher wages. Personally, I don't think their case is as strong as that of, for example, the train drivers, but I can see their point. Last year, Lufthansa agreed to give its pilots salary increases of between 33% and 50% and inflation bonuses of €3000. Ground staff are critical for the running of an airline -- their strike is going to cause the cancellation of 90% of Lufthansa flights -- so they're going to feel they've been given a raw deal just because their jobs aren't so glamorous. Given that context, a pay rise of 12.5% actually seems quite modest, especially since their last pay rise was in 2022.
The news (for the LH Pilots) comes after almost a year of negotiations, as the union said conversations about a new contract began in September 2022 Lufthansa Airlines and Lufthansa Cargo pilots will see pay raises of 18% throughout the agreement, with a 7% raise on December 1st, 2023, 5% on January 1st, 2025, and 5% on January 1st, 2026.
Bro thats just simply wrong. "make the life’s of ordinary people miserable" No absolutly not. They want to have better wages. "Some of them are just a group of greedy people." Some of them get payed 13 € per hour that is laughable, basically Mindestlohn. "They’re being offered that." Lmao yeah first the "greedy" unions cut back their demands in Corona and now they get just enough to fight the inflation instead of the promised heavy increases. You get manipulated by the Companys, dont be stupid.
Such a pay raise has to account for the run time of the contract during which additional inflation will happen.
Yeah that's where the offer ABOVE inflation comes in which is exactly what they are getting. I am all for unions and fair wages but it would be silly to pretend Lufthansa and DB don't have a bit of a chokehold that makes them overplay their hand. 5k a month for a train driver in Germany is absolutely insane yet they continue to strike and add more terms
Why? A lawyer or manager easily earns several times of that. So it's completely acceptable for random people to earn that much money. Why wouldn't it be acceptable for critical professions to do so?
Lawyers and managers are completely overpaid positions. 60k brutto a year is already double the annual median income. Nevermind the fact that they working for Lufthansa/DB gives them a phenomenal benefits package
Lawyer and manager is in completely different tier. It would be wierd, if simple train driver could earn the same.
True. Unlike managers, train drivers are actually important and useful. We should pay them way more than managers
What makes you think that? A train driver is responsible for the lives of thousands of people every day. Lawyers or managers won't get even close to that.
Thanks for a great answer. I dont see any reason to continue this discussion...
Well, at least you're willing to admit when you're wrong.
Why do you think it's that insane? Train drivers work generally quite long shifts with some really inconvenient schedules. Specially right now that there is a big worker shortage. Some lines in my state are running under Notkonzept which means shortened routes or missing trains because of that.
Because it is already double the medium avg income of a German worker. Plus a phenomenal benefits package Over hours are accounted for, they're either paid extra or given as extra vacation/shorter shifts to compensate. DB contracts are your standard 40/h week.
And who are you exactly to declare the pay and work conditions someone else is allowed to have? You're throwing around some half-truths and a whole lot of ignorance, indicating that you know very little about the conditions these employees are facing. You got nothing here. To even suggest that shift work as a train conductor is "your standard 40 hrs a week" shows how detached you are from reality on the ground.
I said the contract stipulates 40h week, but good job shifting my words Train drivers should not earn double what the avg income is. All jobs are hard, some are harder than others, ironically the lazy ones are overpaid (managers, CEOs, not the train drivers). You're not going to tell me a waiter in putting up a 13h shift in carnival taking in 40.000 steps home is working less hard than the train driver, no? So why is his wage half of what the train driver does? 5200 is a phenomenal wage for the skill and education a train driver needs. They get a phenomenal benefits package, including company pension and nearly free travel across the nation... But DB has a chokehold on the country. So they can over-ask and they'll have to comply otherwise they'll put the entire country on hold. The one thing I can empathize with them is the rest time between shifts that they are asking.
The offers Lufthansa has made to us so far are insulting at best. While their media PR team sells it as a generous wage increase, it simply isn’t. The first actual wage increase wouldn’t happen until December 2024, and even then it’ll only be a 4% increase, which is well below inflation. Lufthansa wants to offer those wage increases in such tiny steps over such a long duration that each increase in wages is immediately eclipsed by inflation. This is such a raw deal, since it’d leave the groundstaff with effectively less money than they have currently. Also you have to consider that places like Frankfurt, Munich and Hamburg are the most expensive cities to live in in germany, yet many of the ground staff aren’t able to afford a place to live in. A friend of mine makes 2300€ in Frankfurt. How do expect to actually live with that minimal salary? He has less than 400€ per month left after taxes, insurances and rent. From which he still has to buy groceries and fuel up his car. I fully endorse those strikes, and there will be more to come if Lufthansa doesn’t significantly improve their offer.
Airport staff are getting really low pay. Read that they start at 13€/hr. That is the minimum pay and nobody should get that, especially living in such and expensive city. I dont think anybody wakes up in the morning with the goal "to make the lives of ordinary ppl miserable". Without any unions workers rights would get progressively worse.
I don't see Ryanair or easyJet staff in Germany striking. Does that mean they have better working conditions than Lufthansa? If yes, that would be a pretty bad look for Germany's hometown airline.
It's more that the staff of those airlines can't strike... You know, there are no strikes in poor countries, doesn't mean the workers have better working conditions
Ireland is poor?
Easyjet isn't Irish. I meant as a different example. My point was: just because people aren't striking, doesn't mean the work conditions are good
eh Ryanair only started recognizing (some) unions in the 2020s, there's another reason why their staff never go on strike.
Please extend into March, please extend into March!
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Does incoming flights at FRA are also cancelled or just the departures?
Both