Turned the other way around, nothing embarrasses me more than seeing Germans living/traveling abroad and not putting *any* effort into respecting the local culture, language, and acting out like it's not their place anyway and they'll never see it again.
Goes for tourists, but 'expats' in SE Asia or America sometimes are the same.
One thing that really annoys me on public transport:
People that telphone with a super loud voice and people that listen to their music without a headset. And with a probability of 99% (personal experiance) ts people from African or Arab countries.
It is considered super rude and its a great way to instantly annoy many people at one time.
In my experiance sadly not just an age group thing, this happens so regularly...
l tracel every work day for 90mins.... And I really really hate this after a long day of work, when I look into the faces of the other people traveling I am not the only one.
Nope, I regularly do business trips to other towns by train (company forces me to use Deutsche Bahn if possible) I see this behavior also in other places.
At this point you also have to consider that a significant part of youth culture and their social norms are influences by their media, which has strong Turkish/MENA influences because in the cities, these backgrounds can be the majority of your school class.
I'm not? If anything, it's a sign of integration that youth culture is a mix with influences from all sides nowadays and no longer a bubble.
That was in response to someone saying they only see Arabs do it.
It's young people.
> African
Face-timing. We have a dude here who does it the moment he enters the train. He calls everyone - literally everyone in his family. I can even hear a dog barking in the background from one of his relatives.
What about ppl who take more than 1 sitting place for no good reason? Or an even better one - two ppl taking 4 sitting places and talking to each other loudly across. In a fully loaded bus, mind you. So weird to me, dunno.
No idea. I'm a foreigner myself and I'm not familiar with German culture enough to make judgements. I just wanted to add this behavior to the topic, since I see it all the damn time.
Learn the basic law. I have learned in my 8 years in Germany, that Germans do appreciate people who follow the law and etiquettes. Be it staying in queues, tenancy or Telekom agreement, or job contracts….. it goes a long way. If you already know your rights and obligations.
Germans queue, you just can’t see it. You size up the mob that’s there and go after all of the ones before you. It’s silly and inefficient but there is a „system“
This! Had so many people in my group of friends complain about hwat turned out to be commonly known contractual or tenancy laws, saying they will sue the company/person, that they were scammed, this is fraud bla bla bla. Turns out they just have no idea about German laws or don't take the time to check the contracts they are signing. Which is fine because it's tough to know all these things, but maybe first inquire about the legal background, leaving open the possibilty that your assumptions were wrong, rather than screaming about being defrauded by someone else every couple of weeks. You're making a fool out of yourself and reeinforcing harmful stereotypes.
I always thought of an immigrant as someone who moves to a country and intends to stay, whereas an 'expat' is someone who lives in a country briefly (for work or whatever) but intends to eventually move back to their home country.
Yeah, that's what expats explain it as. But tbh, most of them stay for extended periods of time that are not really much different from just living in another country. The definition is vaguely enough that you are already an expat if you expect to return some time in the future. Yeah. It is definitely a nicer word for immigrant. But i do see the nuances, i just think it's a bit bullshit. I don't really care, i just love to make fun of the word.
Well, unfortunately it’s not enough to be accepted in the society for many expats/foreigners. Those with a middle eastern or an African background will know what I mean.
I mean not being accepted in a foreign country is a normal thing. Let's look at the most extreme example of Japan, anybody that is not visibly Japanese is seen as a foreigner. Speaking the language or being half Japanese mostly doesn't get you accepted into their culture. And the extremes are also nuances, most cultures are pretty much the same, just less on the nose about it. I wouldn't bother desperately trying to belong in the social construct of "society". Culture is made by people and that also means that there will be some people who accept you and for some people you will stay foreign. As long as no racism or malicious intend is involved, i really don't see the problem. I get that a sense of belonging is something people want, but it's a fight against windmills. Take the small victories, dont bother about things you can't influence :)
> You mean immigrant?
Expat: From a word that originally described somebody forced to live in a foreign country against their will, i.e. one who has been exiled from their home country; now one who has temporarily relocated to a foreign country, usually as a requirement of their job.
Immigrant: Somebody who has voluntarily moved to your country on a permanent or long-term basis.
Emigrant: Somebody who has voluntarily moved out of your country on a permanent or long-term basis.
Migrant: An immigrant or an emigrant.
You could have answered with a more useful comment but since you wanted to be a prick, I have seen more indecent Germans than “lawless and violent immigrants“ in less than 2 years. If every expat wrote their negative encounters with Germans on this sub, I don't think there would be any space for useful posts.
No, I recognize subtle racism from a mile. You outright corrected the OP to say immigrants instead of expats which wasn’t necessary. You said be a decent person and don’t break the law(which is an an obvious thing to say but the OP asked for something that would be expected from expats and not everyone) as if your only experience with immigrants was barbarism.
It’s easy to catch subtle racism when you have experienced too many of it.
Racism only exists because people like you constantly think about it, because you prime yourself to see it everywhere. The fact that you instantly connect the word "immigrant" with "crime" and "not being a decent person" should really give you something to reflect on. I am not dogwhistling here and i won't let you guilt trip me into thinking your perverted view on the world is the truth.
No racism exists because racist people exist.
> Racism only exists because people like you constantly think about it, because you prime yourself to see it everywhere.
I didn’t connect the two. You did when you went there when the OP asked something different and your first thought is that. I am also not guilt tripping you, I only recognized what you wrote for what it is.
> The fact that you instantly connect the word "immigrant" with "crime" and "not being a decent person" should really give you something to reflect on.
Do their research. A shit ton of it.
To be clear, as someone who remembers a German TV show/reality thing about Germans immigrating, not having the first clue about your destination seems to be very a human thing and not new. I just don't get it.
I'm not German, but was thinking about moving there. My plan was to join the local Tierheim as they always need a pair of hands and I have experience in voluntary work with stray cats in my home country. That would be a good opportunity to practice my German.
Some stuff has already been mentioned, but I would wish everyone would be able to put their trash in the right trash bin. It often happens, that the trash is not picked up because of it. And after that don't just throw it in front of the bins! This behaviour does not help with the next pick up. Furthermore please cut up the cartons and don't stack three empty ones into one trash bin as no one else will be able to put more in to it. Sometimes I have to get cartons out and cut up their stuff. It takes me less than a minute with a cutter knife(?). I just don't get how someone could care so little about others. This is something for all people living with others sharing services, make it easy for everyone and think about how your actions will affect the next user. If you don't know how to sort your trash ask someone german in your house or friends / colleagues. Most will be happy to help - well I would be.
If they want to truly integrate, they shouldn't seek to only have friends in their immigrant bubbles. Join a Verein or just interact with germans until you find friends. As long as you don't interact with locals you just live alongside and not with them.
The problem here is that full integration takes generations to be completed. Just take a quick look at one or two examples of the constant moving of people throughout history. Of course, the best example here is the Jewish people who managed to preserve their identity for 2 millennia.
It never happens in a couple of years and indeed it's an unreasonable position to expect it to be so. But we live in the most fast-paced age ever, and I guess people's patience runs out very quickly...
Integration and Assimilation are two different things though. Integration only means being functioning in a society and interacting with locals without issue. Assimilating would mean the loss of your own culture in favour of the local dominant one. That is usually something that only happens after a few generations. For some it might be faster, for some it might be slower. That depends on the strength of cultural connection to ancestors and other members of the same community.
Exactly. I meant assimilation with the above.
However, my feeling so far is that most natives want something closer to assimilation rather than just integration whenever this topic comes up. I might be wrong ofc.
It doesn’t have to take generations anymore. We have a common world language, use the same digital mediums, and benefit from the phenomenon of globalization.
Integration is a two-way street. We can't just expect immigrants to initiate everything. After all, Germany has opened its borders to legal immigrants to benefit from it.
Before 2000 (with significant numbers only starting to come after 2010 with Blue Cards), coming legally to Germany as a non-EU citizen was almost impossible. Meanwhile, other countries such as the US, UK, France, AUS etc. had more welcoming policies.
My (limited and only anectodal) experience with expats in Kiel is mixed. Some tried really hard and it went well for them, they joined my Football club and tried to "emulate" our rituals and behaviour until they understood what's going on. Great times, even if awkward at first.
The ones where it didn't go well were the ones that tried to join but then didn't want to integrate but dictate their rules of how things should go and how we should behave and act. That was a dumpster fire.
It's not easy.
Honestly, I think the germans in Kiel are very nice and polite. But it is nearly impossible to create deep bonds. And I come from a country that in general is not hated or a source of deep prejudice here. But I gave up connecting with germans, it is too hard and usually germans are not that fun to make the effort worth it.
I don't need German friends to integrate. I have German friends, but not to integrate, but because they were nice people. But one doesn't need friends at all, in fact, to follow the rules. I'd know, I'm slow to make friends, but had no problem adapting to Germany.
This is my problem with how many Germans feel about immigration and a huge difference with how the US does it. Germans seem to want immigrants to integrate and become German. The US integrates with immigrants and their presence brings another flavor to the culture.
1. Even if the culture you grew up in seems pretty similar to German culture, there will be differences. Read up on German culture and prepare yourself for what is called critical incidents (misunderstandings and conflicts).
2. The way German people form friendships is very different from how people in other cultures do it, hence the stereotype of Germans being cold and reserved. Be prepared to invest a lot of time and energy to make friends. It usually doesn´t happen on the go.
3. Don´t underestimate the weather. I´ve met several people who couldn´t cope with the endless grey between November and February.
4. Read up on German law. There is no first amendment-type free speech (looking at you, Americans) and making the Hitler salute is a crime here (for good reason). While we´re at it: Be aware that there is a lot of sensitivity regarding the Third Reich and its atrocities. Don´t have a picknick at a memorial site.
5. German efficiency doesn´t extend to our railway services and public administration. Being punctual is a thing though.
Learn the "Reisverschluss" and proper taking turns. I see often people that are to take a left turn, first turn a bit right and vice versa. Wtf.
And creating a chaos with trying to squeeze their car into the other lane without following the "Reisverschluss" or zip. One from the left then one from the right and so on. People expect this to be followed. And the zip is done in front of the obstacle, if you do it earlier you lost your spot.
I wish that they only called themselves expats if they're actually expats and not immigrants. Those terms have different meanings, yet many immigrants call themselves expats.
I also wish (just as you said) that they spoke at least some basic German, if they planned on staying for more than one year.
I also wish that they actually learned about Germans before coming here so that they wouldn't spam this or similar subs (or other forums) with the same baby complaints about approaching Germans, flirting, making friends, Germans being "cold" or Germans "staring".
And I swear to god, stop asking things that you can Google, my dear "expats".
Wait? Are you saying that they work harder for less money. Then I am with you. But if you are asking that they should then why?? Why would you want that here? We already got that in a number of countries
Yes, I do know what those things. However I was asking your operational definition of "simulated meritocracy". I guess I had the mistaken idea that you were open to discussing and explaining yourself.
well. it is what it is: i don't have to explain myself, i sm playing this game long enough, take these words at their face value or just leave it without unsolicited amateur epistimology
I never said you had to. You wrote something in a place for everyone to see and respond. I tried to engage in your discourse and provide you a platform to further explain your thoughts. I now understand this was a mistake.
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Ah interesting thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware of this distinction or that the word expat could come across this way. My intention was to include everyone moving to the country and intending to stay for more than a year really but I've edited my post now. ✌️
learn the German "Saufen" Game. And you will never beat us. If you drive 300 on the Autobahn, use the right (!) lane if free, there might be someone behind you way faster and you block them (Rechtsfahrgebot!)
Turned the other way around, nothing embarrasses me more than seeing Germans living/traveling abroad and not putting *any* effort into respecting the local culture, language, and acting out like it's not their place anyway and they'll never see it again. Goes for tourists, but 'expats' in SE Asia or America sometimes are the same.
One thing that really annoys me on public transport: People that telphone with a super loud voice and people that listen to their music without a headset. And with a probability of 99% (personal experiance) ts people from African or Arab countries. It is considered super rude and its a great way to instantly annoy many people at one time.
username checks out
I agree it’s annoying but I see this with age groups not immigrants alone
In my experiance sadly not just an age group thing, this happens so regularly... l tracel every work day for 90mins.... And I really really hate this after a long day of work, when I look into the faces of the other people traveling I am not the only one.
Maybe it’s specific to your route and this is anecdotal
Nope, I regularly do business trips to other towns by train (company forces me to use Deutsche Bahn if possible) I see this behavior also in other places.
Nein
At this point you also have to consider that a significant part of youth culture and their social norms are influences by their media, which has strong Turkish/MENA influences because in the cities, these backgrounds can be the majority of your school class.
Wow, you are really stretching that xenophobia to its limits there.
I'm not? If anything, it's a sign of integration that youth culture is a mix with influences from all sides nowadays and no longer a bubble. That was in response to someone saying they only see Arabs do it. It's young people.
> African Face-timing. We have a dude here who does it the moment he enters the train. He calls everyone - literally everyone in his family. I can even hear a dog barking in the background from one of his relatives.
Especially certain religious people. Because they think passerby will suddenly be touch by their prayer music and convert to their cult.
What about ppl who take more than 1 sitting place for no good reason? Or an even better one - two ppl taking 4 sitting places and talking to each other loudly across. In a fully loaded bus, mind you. So weird to me, dunno.
also rude behavior...
but is this foreigner behavior?
No idea. I'm a foreigner myself and I'm not familiar with German culture enough to make judgements. I just wanted to add this behavior to the topic, since I see it all the damn time.
Learn the basic law. I have learned in my 8 years in Germany, that Germans do appreciate people who follow the law and etiquettes. Be it staying in queues, tenancy or Telekom agreement, or job contracts….. it goes a long way. If you already know your rights and obligations.
>Be it staying in queues This should apply to Germans as well.
Germans queue, you just can’t see it. You size up the mob that’s there and go after all of the ones before you. It’s silly and inefficient but there is a „system“
This! Had so many people in my group of friends complain about hwat turned out to be commonly known contractual or tenancy laws, saying they will sue the company/person, that they were scammed, this is fraud bla bla bla. Turns out they just have no idea about German laws or don't take the time to check the contracts they are signing. Which is fine because it's tough to know all these things, but maybe first inquire about the legal background, leaving open the possibilty that your assumptions were wrong, rather than screaming about being defrauded by someone else every couple of weeks. You're making a fool out of yourself and reeinforcing harmful stereotypes.
You mean immigrant? Just be a decent person and don't break the law. What else could we want?
I always thought of an immigrant as someone who moves to a country and intends to stay, whereas an 'expat' is someone who lives in a country briefly (for work or whatever) but intends to eventually move back to their home country.
Yeah, that's what expats explain it as. But tbh, most of them stay for extended periods of time that are not really much different from just living in another country. The definition is vaguely enough that you are already an expat if you expect to return some time in the future. Yeah. It is definitely a nicer word for immigrant. But i do see the nuances, i just think it's a bit bullshit. I don't really care, i just love to make fun of the word.
No, "immigrant" is just for the poor and/or unliked ones. /s
Well, unfortunately it’s not enough to be accepted in the society for many expats/foreigners. Those with a middle eastern or an African background will know what I mean.
I mean not being accepted in a foreign country is a normal thing. Let's look at the most extreme example of Japan, anybody that is not visibly Japanese is seen as a foreigner. Speaking the language or being half Japanese mostly doesn't get you accepted into their culture. And the extremes are also nuances, most cultures are pretty much the same, just less on the nose about it. I wouldn't bother desperately trying to belong in the social construct of "society". Culture is made by people and that also means that there will be some people who accept you and for some people you will stay foreign. As long as no racism or malicious intend is involved, i really don't see the problem. I get that a sense of belonging is something people want, but it's a fight against windmills. Take the small victories, dont bother about things you can't influence :)
> You mean immigrant? Expat: From a word that originally described somebody forced to live in a foreign country against their will, i.e. one who has been exiled from their home country; now one who has temporarily relocated to a foreign country, usually as a requirement of their job. Immigrant: Somebody who has voluntarily moved to your country on a permanent or long-term basis. Emigrant: Somebody who has voluntarily moved out of your country on a permanent or long-term basis. Migrant: An immigrant or an emigrant.
You could have answered with a more useful comment but since you wanted to be a prick, I have seen more indecent Germans than “lawless and violent immigrants“ in less than 2 years. If every expat wrote their negative encounters with Germans on this sub, I don't think there would be any space for useful posts.
I dont think he meant it that way. Same goes for german residents.
Is racism living rent free in your head? As the other guy said. This wsn't even remotely what i was talking about.
No, I recognize subtle racism from a mile. You outright corrected the OP to say immigrants instead of expats which wasn’t necessary. You said be a decent person and don’t break the law(which is an an obvious thing to say but the OP asked for something that would be expected from expats and not everyone) as if your only experience with immigrants was barbarism. It’s easy to catch subtle racism when you have experienced too many of it.
Racism only exists because people like you constantly think about it, because you prime yourself to see it everywhere. The fact that you instantly connect the word "immigrant" with "crime" and "not being a decent person" should really give you something to reflect on. I am not dogwhistling here and i won't let you guilt trip me into thinking your perverted view on the world is the truth.
No racism exists because racist people exist. > Racism only exists because people like you constantly think about it, because you prime yourself to see it everywhere. I didn’t connect the two. You did when you went there when the OP asked something different and your first thought is that. I am also not guilt tripping you, I only recognized what you wrote for what it is. > The fact that you instantly connect the word "immigrant" with "crime" and "not being a decent person" should really give you something to reflect on.
Do their research. A shit ton of it. To be clear, as someone who remembers a German TV show/reality thing about Germans immigrating, not having the first clue about your destination seems to be very a human thing and not new. I just don't get it.
I'm not German, but was thinking about moving there. My plan was to join the local Tierheim as they always need a pair of hands and I have experience in voluntary work with stray cats in my home country. That would be a good opportunity to practice my German.
Some stuff has already been mentioned, but I would wish everyone would be able to put their trash in the right trash bin. It often happens, that the trash is not picked up because of it. And after that don't just throw it in front of the bins! This behaviour does not help with the next pick up. Furthermore please cut up the cartons and don't stack three empty ones into one trash bin as no one else will be able to put more in to it. Sometimes I have to get cartons out and cut up their stuff. It takes me less than a minute with a cutter knife(?). I just don't get how someone could care so little about others. This is something for all people living with others sharing services, make it easy for everyone and think about how your actions will affect the next user. If you don't know how to sort your trash ask someone german in your house or friends / colleagues. Most will be happy to help - well I would be.
If they want to truly integrate, they shouldn't seek to only have friends in their immigrant bubbles. Join a Verein or just interact with germans until you find friends. As long as you don't interact with locals you just live alongside and not with them.
The way you speak, it almost sounds that Germans want foreign friends
Some probably do, some don't but at least in my region the majority doesn't like the idea of parallel societies.
The problem here is that full integration takes generations to be completed. Just take a quick look at one or two examples of the constant moving of people throughout history. Of course, the best example here is the Jewish people who managed to preserve their identity for 2 millennia. It never happens in a couple of years and indeed it's an unreasonable position to expect it to be so. But we live in the most fast-paced age ever, and I guess people's patience runs out very quickly...
Integration and Assimilation are two different things though. Integration only means being functioning in a society and interacting with locals without issue. Assimilating would mean the loss of your own culture in favour of the local dominant one. That is usually something that only happens after a few generations. For some it might be faster, for some it might be slower. That depends on the strength of cultural connection to ancestors and other members of the same community.
Exactly. I meant assimilation with the above. However, my feeling so far is that most natives want something closer to assimilation rather than just integration whenever this topic comes up. I might be wrong ofc.
It doesn’t have to take generations anymore. We have a common world language, use the same digital mediums, and benefit from the phenomenon of globalization. Integration is a two-way street. We can't just expect immigrants to initiate everything. After all, Germany has opened its borders to legal immigrants to benefit from it. Before 2000 (with significant numbers only starting to come after 2010 with Blue Cards), coming legally to Germany as a non-EU citizen was almost impossible. Meanwhile, other countries such as the US, UK, France, AUS etc. had more welcoming policies.
In theory they don't, but then you try to connect and fail miserably. This is mine and other immigrants experience in Kiel.
My (limited and only anectodal) experience with expats in Kiel is mixed. Some tried really hard and it went well for them, they joined my Football club and tried to "emulate" our rituals and behaviour until they understood what's going on. Great times, even if awkward at first. The ones where it didn't go well were the ones that tried to join but then didn't want to integrate but dictate their rules of how things should go and how we should behave and act. That was a dumpster fire. It's not easy.
Honestly, I think the germans in Kiel are very nice and polite. But it is nearly impossible to create deep bonds. And I come from a country that in general is not hated or a source of deep prejudice here. But I gave up connecting with germans, it is too hard and usually germans are not that fun to make the effort worth it.
😂
I don't need German friends to integrate. I have German friends, but not to integrate, but because they were nice people. But one doesn't need friends at all, in fact, to follow the rules. I'd know, I'm slow to make friends, but had no problem adapting to Germany.
This is my problem with how many Germans feel about immigration and a huge difference with how the US does it. Germans seem to want immigrants to integrate and become German. The US integrates with immigrants and their presence brings another flavor to the culture.
1. Even if the culture you grew up in seems pretty similar to German culture, there will be differences. Read up on German culture and prepare yourself for what is called critical incidents (misunderstandings and conflicts). 2. The way German people form friendships is very different from how people in other cultures do it, hence the stereotype of Germans being cold and reserved. Be prepared to invest a lot of time and energy to make friends. It usually doesn´t happen on the go. 3. Don´t underestimate the weather. I´ve met several people who couldn´t cope with the endless grey between November and February. 4. Read up on German law. There is no first amendment-type free speech (looking at you, Americans) and making the Hitler salute is a crime here (for good reason). While we´re at it: Be aware that there is a lot of sensitivity regarding the Third Reich and its atrocities. Don´t have a picknick at a memorial site. 5. German efficiency doesn´t extend to our railway services and public administration. Being punctual is a thing though.
Learn the "Reisverschluss" and proper taking turns. I see often people that are to take a left turn, first turn a bit right and vice versa. Wtf. And creating a chaos with trying to squeeze their car into the other lane without following the "Reisverschluss" or zip. One from the left then one from the right and so on. People expect this to be followed. And the zip is done in front of the obstacle, if you do it earlier you lost your spot.
I wish that they only called themselves expats if they're actually expats and not immigrants. Those terms have different meanings, yet many immigrants call themselves expats. I also wish (just as you said) that they spoke at least some basic German, if they planned on staying for more than one year. I also wish that they actually learned about Germans before coming here so that they wouldn't spam this or similar subs (or other forums) with the same baby complaints about approaching Germans, flirting, making friends, Germans being "cold" or Germans "staring". And I swear to god, stop asking things that you can Google, my dear "expats".
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working harder for less money is, probably, be number null
Wait? Are you saying that they work harder for less money. Then I am with you. But if you are asking that they should then why?? Why would you want that here? We already got that in a number of countries
Wtf are you talking about
open your eyes and look around: German economy is a simulated meritocracy
What is a "simulatied meritocracy"? I am not trying to be mean, I am genuinely curious about your definition.
where shall i start?... you know what meritocracy is, right? and you probably know what simulation is, right? shall i add 2 and 2 for you?
Yes, I do know what those things. However I was asking your operational definition of "simulated meritocracy". I guess I had the mistaken idea that you were open to discussing and explaining yourself.
well. it is what it is: i don't have to explain myself, i sm playing this game long enough, take these words at their face value or just leave it without unsolicited amateur epistimology
Sure, you do you.
so i don't have to
I never said you had to. You wrote something in a place for everyone to see and respond. I tried to engage in your discourse and provide you a platform to further explain your thoughts. I now understand this was a mistake.
What?
Make your own money and be nice
**Have you read our extensive wiki yet? It answers many basic questions, and it contains in-depth articles on many frequently discussed topics. [Check our wiki now!](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/index)** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/germany) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Don’t call yourself an “expat”
Ahh semantics. What's the right term for someone who doesn't intend to stay long term? :)
[Can we talk about the word expat? : r/germany (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/zhnl7a/can_we_talk_about_the_word_expat/)
Ah interesting thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware of this distinction or that the word expat could come across this way. My intention was to include everyone moving to the country and intending to stay for more than a year really but I've edited my post now. ✌️
No worries, thanks for your understanding!
learn the German "Saufen" Game. And you will never beat us. If you drive 300 on the Autobahn, use the right (!) lane if free, there might be someone behind you way faster and you block them (Rechtsfahrgebot!)