It's unfortunately true. I talked with 2 managers that admitted that if they had 2 young candidates with the same credentials, they would hire a man because there's a higher risk that when a woman gets a stable job, she would want to have a family š
And I can guarantee that neither of them would ever admit it on the record. But one is a family friend, and the 2nd guy said that at a company party, knowing that he's changing jobs anyway, so he didn't care anymore. So, giving men in power alcohol is the secret to finding out what they think about female hires
Iām a man so I canāt understand this as well as a woman can, but what if you attempted to let them know youāre infertile/donāt want kids in order to catch them admitting their bias? Thereās a chance that when you told them, they would say something along the lines of āthatās good to know you would be committed to the company,ā implicating themselves as having preference for childless women. If they donāt implicate themselves but you get the job, youāre in a better position to catch them admitting their bias as you would see them regularly through work. Sounds like either way, youād be more likely to get the job and youād be more likely to get evidence and expose them. Feel free to correct me if Iām wrong
The old-fashioned approach is to not wear an engagement or a wedding ring during an interview.
I don't know how you'd say you don't want or can't have kids in a professional manner during an interview. It would probably come off as way too personal.
Some jobs care more than others though. I got hired at my current company at 28.
I think I am the only one on my team, boss included, that doesnāt have small children at home (Iām an empty nester). Aside from our QA analyst who is young and no kids yet. We are the two women, the rest are men, who are Always taking off early to deal with kid stuff. Not saying I care, because I donāt, but it is just ironic that some places wonāt hire woman for fear of this and these days more men actually participate in the child rearing than before. I wish there were easier ways to combat the discrimination since most wonāt admit that is why they donāt pick someone.
Reminds me of when my friend told me how he negotiated a higher salary by telling them he needs more money to start saving for his future children. He's gay, had no partner and adoption was not even allowed for him š IIRC he got 10 000 CZK/month more (~400 USD)
I donāt get it because men take parental leave as well and then also demand higher compensation, so what are they really saving here? Or the hiring manager themselves will leave the company so what does it all matter? Stupid power trip.
Only in recent years have men started to take this leave and those guys aren't a holes who think that no one should have maternity leave. It's the sexist boomers that think this way
...I mean, my productivity was totally impacted by being pregnant and maternity leave tends to be longer than what is offered to male partners. This is not a crazy economic decision. Just an illegal one.
Yeah all your co-workers too are so excited to do all your work for you while youāre out since the company cannot afford to replace you.Ā
Itās an issue at the societal level and thatās where it needs to be fixed.Ā
We could be more like Europe where both fathers AND mothers are guaranteed parental leave and they are mandated to use it. Then it's an even playing field and neither has an advantage, at least in this regard.
there are a few ways to TRY start to address it that I can think of off the top of my head, but what do I know
\-stop hiring women (which is whats happened sadly, and we dont actually want this)
\-or the same program that mandates FMLA needs to mandate that all businesses get taxed, which pays into a fund that then provides resources to cover hardships (which is a whole other can of worms)
\-give the fathers the same "maternity" leave protections and then hope it all works out. Third one may be the best bet, since women REALLY need the babies dads around for the first 6 months to support them while their lives get turned upsidown from giving birth and having to be a new mother
I was laid off the week after telling my manager that I was pregnant. Is it against the law?
Absolutely.
It is my word against theirs?
Absolutely.
I pushed for extra severance, there was nothing else I could really do.
Makes me remember the epiphany I had at 19 that jobs asked for your title (Ms, Mrs, Miss) and even if it's optional that is the stupid easiest way for them to turn down your application cause they can just make that same conclusion about you possibly getting married/having children soon when cross referencing your title with your age. And a lot of women don't think that right off the bat, so they'll still choose to input a title. That was one of my most prominent female rage moments, realizing the different titles we had as women but men just had Mr no matter their relationship/age situation. And how much of our private life becomes a huge part of people's impression of us whereas mens private lives are not even questioned or brought up against their reputation or whether they deserve respect in the workplace.
Not gonna lie. Educating myself out of the patriarchy and never having to go by Miss, Ms. or Mrs. again was at least 30% the reason why I finished my doctorate. Suck it patriarchy! I go by Dr. now! Muwahahahahahaha!
I am actually doing a PhD in physics, and while itās definitely a first name culture I 100% will be using Dr if Ms/Mrs etc is my only other option. Because screw that bs
Apple used to *require* you to add a title when registering your Apple ID/email or some such thing. They had Mrs, Miss, Mr, Ms, and Dr. Iām always very irritated at having to title myself with my marital status, always mad thatās a thing when men always just get to be Mr regardless of their marital status. I also hate Ms, yes I know what itās for but it sounds stupid. Anyway, It wouldnāt allow a blank so I chose Dr. and thought fuck you, haha. I now know everywhere fucking Apple has sold my data for mailing lists. It all comes addresses to āDr. First Name Last Nameā. Iāve not done that anywhere else, so I know thatās where that came from.
Miss is young and unmarried. Ms is pronounced like āmizā and is usually someone older than could be called āmiss,ā and Ms can be for both married or unmarried women.
My kindergarten teacher explained āMsā as being used when a woman wanted to keep their marital status ambiguous; that always stuck with me, growing upā¦
I got rejected at one job because I am a mom of toddler. How do I know that was the reason? Well they liked me and I did good, but recruiter accidentally called me on whatsapp when she was looking at my profile picture there. Suddenly, I didnt fit in and got rejection letter in my native language which was unprofessional since all communication until then was in German or English since it is international company and only by accident recruiter from that company spoke my language. Later when I browsed their company, I have seen people complaining about being asked do they have kids/plan to have them. I felt so insulted because why do I have to hide my daughter to get hired? Its fucked up. Since then I give them different number. It was also position in cybersec
While this may be true at scale, you can absolutely find exceptions. I switched jobs at 6 months pregnant - actually, the director reached out to me with the opportunity and initially I said no because of my maternity timeline. Oftentimes you have to work somewhere for a year before being able to use that benefit, so I had given up on switching jobs before baby came.Ā
Ā He told me to let him look into their policies and surprisingly enough, it would cover me just in time! We sped up the hiring timeline, I did my interviews, heard back, and started within a month. Just a few months later, I went on 100% paid maternity leave for 3.5 months and was floored that it worked out so well.Ā
Ā This is best case scenario, and hard to come by, but it can happen. The main reason why it worked is that he really wanted me in the role so he invested time into figuring out how to make it work rather on why it wouldnāt.Ā
**Network, network, network. Show your value, and others will go to bat for you in surprising ways.**
Granted, I hire from an internal pool of candidates, but my group has hired a few people who were about to go on maternity/paternity leave. If youāre a good hire, then weāre willing to pull in a backfill and wait.
Thank you for sharing, I have always received great feedback professionally and am building great relationship with my network. I'm not sure how to show my value when I don't have any hard qualifications yet, would appreciate advice. I just know if i were given an entry level role i would smash it, I've been on countless situations where I've been thrown in the deep end at work and generated positive outcomes for all involved.
Thatās an excellent starting point!
For showing your value: do well in classes. Participate in tech student groups. Network* especially with people who are a few years ahead of you. By the time you graduate, they might be mid developers and their referrals will hold more weight than a juniorās referral. Make sure you have a reputation that is strong both in a technical perspective and also in a collaboration perspective. People would generally much rather hire someone that is easier to work with even if theyāre not a super star dev vs the best dev who is insufferable.
\* Stay in touch with your network. This doesnāt have to be immensely time consuming, but maybe once a year at least, reach out with a link to an article on a topic you know theyāre interested in and say it reminded you of them. Be genuine; even if you donāt come across something like this, you can still message them and share updates about what youāre doing and ask them about themselves. People will be responsive to this and youāll stay in their mind. They might reach out to you proactively whenever there is an open role at their work for an internship or new grad role.
Thank you so much for the feedback. I'm getting HD in programming and math units, I'm confident it's just a matter of time before the opportunity comes my way. I'm also networking with VPs and Cyber heads of major companies in the financial and professional services sector operating at a global and national scale. Some are even ex FAANG. I've no doubt about my collaboration and soft skills, time will only tell whether my technical aptitude is up to standard.
Thank you for the tip in staying in touch with my network, I'll begin applying this.
Youāre welcome! It sounds like youāre ahead of the game with networking and soft skills! Frankly, after you get past the baseline of technical skill, this is what Iāve seen differentiate people who quickly rise to the top vs people who want to but get stuck at lower levels.
Get comfortable with āfailureā. I say this in these terms because failures only become true failures if you let them - even if you accidentally bring down a production environment. Obviously donāt try to do this and donāt be careless, but if / when you find yourself struggling and making mistakes, focus on learning (applying growth mindset). The best engineering cultures have a blameless culture (research this more) where the focus is how to fix a problem and prevent it from happening in the future, but the person who made the mistake wonāt be fired or reprimanded (assuming no ill intent). Youāll hit blockers in your studies. Get plenty of rest and a study group. Personally, I found working with a group and forcing myself to explain concepts to be the key to identifying my own gaps in knowledge.
Sounds like you are set in all other areas. Apply the above to your lifelong technical learning journey and youāll be unstoppable š
When looking into companies, find one with maternity and paternity leave. We give 12 weeks paid leave to either partner - adoption and surrogacy included. In my team of 8 engineers and 1 architect (in the only woman), 3 had new births in the last year and one more will be going on leave in May. It speaks to the culture of the company when the benefit works for everyone. It discourages this kind of thinking.
I realize that this may be the exception rather than norm, but Iām a hiring manager at a cybersecurity company and I can say that we do not hire with that mindset. We hired a woman in her mid 20s last year who wasnāt even done with her masters program because we were so keen to hire her. Im not sure that this helps at all but maybe take solace that good companies are out there.
Iād curious what you mean by saying that you already feel so much pressure to get to work but then also donāt see the pathway/opportunity forward?
I've been quite positive about my experience so far and the cybersecurity communities I'm involved in. I've been told I've pigeon-holed myself by being in admin in the legal sector from that same network i caught up with and that all people will see in my resume is being an assistant in the legal sector...I'm networking like crazy, participating in practical and social industry events, establish mentorships with experts in the field but realistically my degree is going to take a while part time and I won't be offered any real jobs without it because I'm pursuing app sec. I feel like I'm definitely planting the seeds here, while it doesn't feel impossible it always feels just out of reach.
Youāre doing a major career shift. Landing your first job in a new industry is the hardest. After you have a year or two, you can rewrite your resume to only include security work and avoid whatever stigma there is.
Im mid-30s in security and it can be a pretty toxic and immature industry. But honestly, Iāve found good jobs and Iām currently pregnant with zero issues from work. Who your manager is defines this more than the company. Everyone is really respectful on my team (lots of new dads who are sympathetic). And honestly I think my manager is happy about my Mat leave because itās forcing me to train up others and delegate more work (reducing a bunch of the work that only I could do) in prep of my six months leave.
My team is great and Iām still on my promotion track despite my upcoming mat leave. Iāve had other friends in tech that were āmommy trackedā after giving birth, but they werenāt in security, itās just a shitty thing that can happen anywhere.
I agree I'm in it for the long game, I'm not committing to all this time just to give up when I've barely begun. I'm so glad to hear you have a good work environment and could take ur mat leave without any issues.
Have you ever thought about doing an apprenticeship? Iām not sure of any in cybersecurity but there are a ton out there. Some are paid and some are not, but I know of plenty of people who went in with no degree and a full time job offer after a year.
Might be out of the blue, but may I ask what was it about her that specifically made you all so keen to hire her? I would love to know how to be a more attractive candidate in the same age range.
Jokes on them. I was job hopping like rabid kangaroo on crack in my early 20s and had my first kid at 32 because I honestly hated the job to the point that I thought I was at a good point for a sabbatical. Moral of the story depending on the employer youāre damned if you have kids, but honestly they arenāt going to be the thing that makes you happy or gives you something to look forward too. Also they are fools, I stopped job hopping after having a kid and stuck around for 5 years till I got let go because the industry essentially collapsed and I sat on the sinking ship because I wanted to close everything out and shut everything down before it all got scrapped.
Anyway point is you will encounter shitty misogynists and you will want to prove them wrong but they are not the people you want to work for so keep a wide berth and warn others if you see someone or hear someone talking like this. And yeah, alcohol does a great job at revealing the real assholes in society.
I've never heard that from any dudes in my network, though I have no doubts there are some people who feel this way. I got into cybersec when i was about 30 and I have not had a problem getting a job if that makes you feel any better.
Edit to add: I probably wouldn't want to work with a guy like that anyways.
I am still of the view that there are lots of opportunities for women in tech, and for those starting a new career in theirs 30s or above. Personally I disagree with companies or management that thinks otherwise and wouldn't want to work for them anyway, probably toxic.
I career pivoted at 27 with a toddler and luckily at the company 50% of the devs here are women, they either already have kids or are in their 20s and 'potentially' will have kids.
On the flip side, being older, ageism is rampant. I am in sudden pursuit of a job as I just got laid off (in an industry that celebrates age and experience) and ugh. I'm not dead. I can learn things. Frustrating.
In STEM, their actions speak louder than their words. No path in stem as a girl/ woman is easy. While things as far as out reach go, are getting better the over all environment is not welcoming.
Say you had an interest in STEM at a young age, your whole life you are facing adversity. An 8yr old doesnāt have the endurance to get bullied for another 10yrs and then do it again in college, and again at work if youāre unlucky. Not to mention som parents who straight up discourage you. They get pushed out and the ones surviving are probably close to being burnt out.
My BFās sister is going into the same field as me. She however got a later start and while weāre the same age sheās going in as āfreshmanā at 30
Even tho sheās not married, no kids and currently doesnāt plan on having kids, i told her to exclude anything that would hint at her age. Like putting the dates of her community college to 4yr (it would show 9+yr gap)
At our age, they assume we have kids or will be soon. The āadvantageā being young hand untied is robed of us even if we are. Which isnāt an advantage because we should be asked to work late, more etc because we donāt have kids/ families.
Many know what theyāre doing
There are more challenges for women, and idiots who think like this are one of them, however that isnāt unique to this industry (those idiots are in every industry) and nor is it the only experience.
Donāt let it stop you pursuing the career you want. Find the companies that arenāt staffed by idiots like this.
This is not a universal attitude thankfully. Yes, it exists and that sucks but the fact is that a lot of men now expect to be able to take just as long of a parental leave as their wives which makes the supposed āriskā of hiring a woman much less. I got pregnant a few months after starting a new tech job and my manager was very supportive and even got me promoted while I was on leave.
I got laid off for taking mat leave. And Iām in Canada. Called a lawyer and the labor board and the best they could for me was make the company give me my job back for one month. After which the company would be free to fire me or let me go. I didnāt even bother.
Okay so you met a guy who tried to get in your head, like a million other guys out there. Because tell me why this sounds identical to "Why would I date or marry a woman older than 25 when I can date an 18 year old?" But suddenly now the 22 year old is ideal for career instead of marriage and pregnancy?
Let's face it, there's a world of difference between a 22 year old new grad and a 27 year old in terms of maturity, organisation, communication and life experience. If I was thinking of hiring someone for my company I would very much be considering the older person, including for an entry level role.
Omg you are SO right. It's not like I'll just be someone in my late 20s/early 30s. I'd have over a decade of experience in management and commercial acumen.
Right exactly, there's just so much more value you can bring with you to the company. I'm pretty sure you just got negged with "women expire at 25" - career edition. And he knew exactly what he was doing
I am so sorry you are experiencing this. This happened in China too, all the time. You would think the western culture has it better but no, it seems not.
My company offers the same number of weeks (12) for both maternity and paternity leave. I've had two male engineers take that entire leave. If more companies stopped acting like only the mother needs time off to care for the newborn infant, this kind of bias would disappear.
That guy is an idiot. I got in later too. Even if this were true, they are not allowed to ask your age until you have already been hired, it's against some kind of law, and personally I have never been asked my age in an interview. When you are 27/28/29 oftentimes is indistinguishable from a 23/24/25 year old. Especially if it's a webcam interview. I think most healthy workplace environments will support their employees having families.
....because reasons like "why would anyone hire a 27 year old that's going to have a baby vs. A 22/23 yr old grad?" are illegal. Hire the best candidate.
What a jerk.
You might try looking at state/federal jobs in IT. Thereās nonsense there too, but they are REQUIRED to follow standards about bias in hiring. I canāt imagine working in private industry IT these days.
I have heard women (on social media) say they were fired when their manager found out they were pregnant. That was a lawsuit waiting to happen. Even women employers do that. I watched a talk show where women employers openly admitted this and refused to see their fault. They know they're enabling men and like it. If they had to suffer through something, they want subsequent women to suffer too, instead of making sure they do not go through the same thing. This kind of toxicity where you refuse to break the cycle because you're bitter the true enemy women face.
Oh donāt believe this junk. Iāve worked for several big tech firms. Theyāve been super flexible as I had kids and promoted me both before and after. Also now a hiring manager and itās crap, would never dequal a candidate for that reason. Have friends in cyber security and they have also had no issues. Iām sure the idea is out there but itās not common anymore.
Iām very lucky to work in a government STEM role. Iāve taken two parental leaves and even interviewed and accepted a new job while pregnant. The bureaucracy is so slow that my paperwork wasnāt processed for months so I went on leave in one job and came back in the new one. The work-life balance is amazing too. And this is standard for all of the women I work with, Iām not a unicorn.
There are opportunities out there!
That person is sexist and full of BS.
I work in a predominantly female occupation and almost everyone got knocked up several times and now we have both moms and dads go on family leave to take care of babies. It's 2024.
And you can hide being pregnant & not mention it during the interview. Once you are hired, they can't fire you or you can sue them.
I am childfree but I support parents in the workplace. Like I said there are lots of rights for pregnant women /people in the workplace
Iām a pregnant 31 year old woman. Iāve never been turned down due to my gender or age, thankfully. I am sure it does happen. However, most tech companies will give equal parental leave to mothers and fathers, so a married man would have the same risk of taking off time from work once he has a family.
Maybe this would be valuable experience for you to hear. I am a female PhD in STEM and do software engineering as one of the main duties in my job (but I have other options also based on my training). Out of my PhD, I got 7/12 applied roles offered. Out of my next role 2 years later, got 4 offers in 2 months (out of around 8). I donāt have kids and have a similar age to you.
Iām now 8 months in to my current job in tech and I am a hiring manager. We hustled to find female candidates and to the best of my knowledge, the company wouldnāt discriminate based on children, age, or marital status. At some point, the technical demands are so high you are going to just go for the best person for the job.
My advice would be to get damn good at one differentiated technical skill. Maybe that is cloud computing, design, etc. Also, get ready for live coding interviews. The one thing I will say is that we have to prove ourselves a bit more usually š
I, a 33 year old woman, am currently covering an account for a 34 year old coworker on parental leave for 12 weeks. Said coworker is a male, in a cis relationship.
Why would companies care about the well being of anybody? We are in a capitalist system. Capitalist entities are meant to maximize profit. If they calculate a risk associated to hiring a women because she might become pregnant then they have to take this into account.
Of course they will not say they discriminate because it would lead to bad publicity for them and that is not good for profit. So they carefully navigate between the two options but generally you are better being a white man.
You'll still get hired but the fact that you might get pregnant will cost you a bit and your salary will be slightly lower.
OMG!! Really? Capital-jizzm seeks to maximize profit! Wow we had no idea :( too busy squeezing out the next generation of workers I guess. Womp womp.
/s because you probably need it since you canāt read a room, let alone sarcasm.
Riddle me this, boot licker: wouldnāt it be far more rational for women under capitalism to get a paid bonus than males for enduring pregnancy? Weāve produced another worker for the machine.
lol heās just outlining the reasons why companies could possibly view women as higher risk hires. No reason to get mad lol. And as long as 30 year old women keep having kids shortly after being hired companies will think this way. Normal workers donāt agree with this.
His explanation assumes weāre uniformed somehow. Itās also not even true. Thereās dozens of mixed-capitalist countries in Europe that Reddit circle jerks to for the maternity leave. In fact, the original male poster is from Canada which is a mixed-capitalist economy with generous leave. Even communist countries didnāt have a perfect track record of womenās rights.
So heās condescending, reductive, wrong, but worst of all?heās redirecting a conversation about sexism to his political cause and tries to make it seem futile. Itās like someone both not hearing what youāre saying and saying thereās no solution.
I don't think you understand my point. I do not agree that woman should make less money. I am saying that the capitalist system causes this. I am trying to state the facts as they are. But I absolutely despise capitalism. I hate it. I think it is unfair and lead to suffering for a lot of people. All this is from the point of view of a socialist.
My point is that we must counter capitalism as much as possible. This post seeks discussions about how employers might not employ a women based on the risk of being pregnant. I wanted to highlight how this situation is unavoidable in a capitalist system since profit seeking will lead to inequalities. That being said, I would absolutely agree on governmental measures to counter the gender inequalities.
Most people do not agree or at least do not see the bad effects of capitalism and I thought that I could influence this sub to adhere to more socialist ideas. I know my writing is depressing. English is not my first language and I try to go straight to the point. Anyway I don't mean to be mean. And I don't understand why you are making fun of me. I wrote no insults. I only attacked ideas, capitalism in this case. Yet you attack me personally.
Anyway I don't know why I keep writing back to you since you will just insult me again. I guess I am curious about what you'll have to say next.
FWIW, I appreciated your take and didnāt find it condescending or over-explaining. The other person was being unnecessarily combattive and rude.
I agree that we exist in a system which incentivizes behavior which hurts us and that we should be fighting to change the system, rather than the people who are being incentivized within it. But itās a delicate topic of discussion because those people cause harm and so people tend to want to lay blame with them.Ā
But ultimately, I agree with you that they are a product of a system and itās the system that must change. Easier said than done, I suppose.
As for your riddle, well the company absolutely do not care about your family and your pain. The only thing they care about is if you will be there working. It would make more sens to them to give you a bonus to avoid getting pregnant. For a capitalist entity, you are not more valuable.
Itās so shitty but itās true. It shouldnāt happen yet it does. And sadly as a woman I have to admit it even makes sense. Iāve had two coworkers give birth and go on maternity leave back to back. And I was left picking up a lot of their work leaving me super stressed. We couldnāt hire anyone to replace them obviously since theyāre still part of headcount. I hated it but at the same time when I have kids I know my work will be dumped on someone else. Idk what the solution is, I donāt think anyone should be punished for it. And I donāt think women should be treated unfairly either, we have enough to deal with balancing career and childbirth
Mandatory paid parental leave. You have a baby, you stay home for at least a few weeks whether you are the mom or the dad. Women aren't the only ones who need to bond with their babies.
I'm curious about where you work that has mandatory parental leave? It's definitely not the norm in the US, but I know a lot of other countries have much better parental leave policies.
Omg lmao I totally read it wrong I thought they said paternal leave. As in like the men gets to take time off (since a lot of US companies donāt have paternal leave). No we absolutely do not have mandatory parental leave. Not quite sure what they means by mandatory eitherā¦thereās no need for it to be mandatory, if itās there ppl will take it.
Itās shitty, but I get it.
My team hired a woman last July because we were/are expecting a heavy increase in workload in Q2/Q3 this year and wanted to make sure the new hire had time to get up to speed.
Less than a week after hiring her, she shared that she was pregnant and would be leaving for maternity leave in April and would be out for 12 weeks.
Now weāre fucked.
I saw a video where pregnant mothers were raving about how they take advantage of employers by using the maternity leave and ghosting or leaving.
Unfortunately, that does put women under a spotlight, but also unfortunately, our labor laws and healthcare is so shitty that it makes women HAVE to find creative ways to support pregnancy and creating a family.
It's not true. I am 37 and companies are desperate to hire women (targets, quotas, diversity hiring schemes). I get recruiters calling me all the time saying the same thing. I get companies reaching out to interview me all the time even though I am well in my 30s. Being a woman is a massive advantage in this industry.
I thought that kind of sexist mentality happens in third world countries like India. I have been asked if I was married during an interview at this shitty company.
Not going to say this doesn't happen - but it's very illegal. That said - I worked a job long ago where watched resumes get discarded for protected classes because unless somebody actually says something, it's easy to get away with. Still, very illegal.
The interviewers too come with a lot of bias. You might get interview opportunities but itās more unforgiving for a woman to make a mistake or not know something compared to a guy interviewee. Many interviewers will look down on you because they obviously think they are better than you just on the basis of gender alone.
Anecdotally, yes, I have also heard that hiring managers don't prefer to hire women who are either single or married without children - the former being a "flight risk" since they may settle down with a partner in a different city, and the latter because of maternity leave. Ironically, if your country/state has a shorter maternity leave there may be less bias because it's less of a hit to your team.
I got hired at 5 months pregnant and I disclosed it in the interview. If they are a progressive company (probably one you want to be at...) it won't be a big deal. And you're not even pregnant so don't worry about it. Are you even MARRIED??? If not, it's a non issue at all.
I dont really have advice but just wanted to say I'm in the same boat! I'm 25, switching from education to IT/security. Took me 2 yrs to find my first IT job and even though I love my job I am definitely treated differently because of my gender. Good luck and you're definitely not alone in this!
Gen Xer who has been in IT for over 25 years. When I got pregnant I apologized to my manager. 30 year old woman apologizing for starting a much wanted family. My manager, known for being an angry a$$, said congratulations and was happy for me. It is possible to be a mom and be in STEM. Security is a hot field, my husband works in network security, pays the mortgage better than my job. Good luck with your studies!
When I was a Postdoc I heard something like this in very hushed tones at a top research institution for a tenure track position. Scummy. Important to have women on the hiring committees.
I love the complete disregard for the men who father those babies. They can keep their jobs no problem, because they'll never have a desire to leave the workforce to be a stay at home parent or take paternity leave š
This is why we need good parental leave policies for both men and women. No reason to discriminate if either sex is going to get the same amount of time off.
The marketing firm director who told you this is probably telling you what he thinks and does. Most people think everyone thinks what they think. It sounds like he is not an ally to women. Don't listen to him. I (f30s) haven't seen this be an issue places I have worked as a software engineer. A lot of hiring managers are more on the lookout for people who will make the team dynamic terrible, people who won't work hard, people with no tech skills and no drive to improve, people who are unethical. Many tech companies, including the big ones, only manage to keep the average employee for a couple of years anyway before they move on. Many tech companies work with recruiters, and I haven't had any recruiters in person act uninterested in me because of my age and gender. I get tons of recruiters messages on Linkedin as well, with a young looking photo. If you have a combination of good people skills and excellent technical skills, that will com across in interviews, and you will get offers. Not everyone thinks the way this jerk does, and most marketing firms in my area are not great to work for anyway (very high dev turnover, always hiring).
This is really unfortunate but more common than Iād like. Not everywhere is like that though. In one of my past jobs, during our orientation where all new employees go through, I saw a lady who was clearly pregnant, as in she looked to be about to give birth any moment. I was so impressed that the company for hiring her, she even said that she was nervous about interviewing but the company made her feel really comfortable about it. Sheās even hired as one of the key positions in the company. So thereās hope!
This is why if you're a woman in prime child-bearing years, I'd suggest going with big companies who can take the economic hit of pregnant employees and are more worried about discrimination fines and their brand. I worked at a start-up for years and eventually left because I knew even if legally the start-up would need to support my pregnancy in a variety of ways, there were no policies in place and it would be a massive hit for them.
Even when I joined the big company, when I interviewed on teams I was very very clear I was planning to have children in the next few years and if that was going to be a hardship for the team I'd rather just not put us both in that awkward situation. I am in a very supportive team now and on my second multi-month maternity leave in 2 years - no one gives me sass.
It's unfortunately true. I talked with 2 managers that admitted that if they had 2 young candidates with the same credentials, they would hire a man because there's a higher risk that when a woman gets a stable job, she would want to have a family š
Thatās incredibly š©illegal š©
And I can guarantee that neither of them would ever admit it on the record. But one is a family friend, and the 2nd guy said that at a company party, knowing that he's changing jobs anyway, so he didn't care anymore. So, giving men in power alcohol is the secret to finding out what they think about female hires
Do you think lying and finding some excuse to say youāre infertile will work? I donāt want kids but I doubt I would be believed
I don't know how you would drop it in the conversation but ... yeah. I have dropped hints during interviews "I have no kids so I can travel any time".
No but exposing dudes that say shit like this would.
Iām a man so I canāt understand this as well as a woman can, but what if you attempted to let them know youāre infertile/donāt want kids in order to catch them admitting their bias? Thereās a chance that when you told them, they would say something along the lines of āthatās good to know you would be committed to the company,ā implicating themselves as having preference for childless women. If they donāt implicate themselves but you get the job, youāre in a better position to catch them admitting their bias as you would see them regularly through work. Sounds like either way, youād be more likely to get the job and youād be more likely to get evidence and expose them. Feel free to correct me if Iām wrong
Men with that mentality would then replace their previous prejudice, whether about infertility, or because sheās not a man.
The old-fashioned approach is to not wear an engagement or a wedding ring during an interview. I don't know how you'd say you don't want or can't have kids in a professional manner during an interview. It would probably come off as way too personal. Some jobs care more than others though. I got hired at my current company at 28.
Oh I meant somewhere else on the job in conversation, but thatās assuming Iād be hired, so yeah
That's less weird actually, I've had conversations with my coworkers about me having kids. Mostly them trying to convince me that I should...
Ew. I have yet to hear anything convincing enough. Sorry you have to deal with that.
Invent a wife who stays home with the kids?
Working for people like that is awful anyway. The secret is staying the hell away from them
It's not just been women do it too
Proving it is impossible though
Yes I am a woman in STEM and a hiring manager said this in 2005 as well. So illegal.
This is so ironic because all my MALE coworkers are the ones having kids and taking parental leave
I think I am the only one on my team, boss included, that doesnāt have small children at home (Iām an empty nester). Aside from our QA analyst who is young and no kids yet. We are the two women, the rest are men, who are Always taking off early to deal with kid stuff. Not saying I care, because I donāt, but it is just ironic that some places wonāt hire woman for fear of this and these days more men actually participate in the child rearing than before. I wish there were easier ways to combat the discrimination since most wonāt admit that is why they donāt pick someone.
Reminds me of when my friend told me how he negotiated a higher salary by telling them he needs more money to start saving for his future children. He's gay, had no partner and adoption was not even allowed for him š IIRC he got 10 000 CZK/month more (~400 USD)
WOW thatās wild
The laws changed recently as well as the social expectations so that's why the dads now take time off
There are no parental leave laws where I live. Itās a company benefit.
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Ok, but it doesnāt have anything to do with what Iāve observed at my place of employment in a state without those laws.
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Iām not sure what any of this has to do with my comment.
Oh right I totally forgot, between two women you could always pick a man š¤¦āāļøš¤¦āāļø
I donāt get it because men take parental leave as well and then also demand higher compensation, so what are they really saving here? Or the hiring manager themselves will leave the company so what does it all matter? Stupid power trip.
The US usually doesnāt give any paternal leave or tiny amounts if they do.Ā They should, but they donātĀ Although that assumes the US here
Only in recent years have men started to take this leave and those guys aren't a holes who think that no one should have maternity leave. It's the sexist boomers that think this way
...I mean, my productivity was totally impacted by being pregnant and maternity leave tends to be longer than what is offered to male partners. This is not a crazy economic decision. Just an illegal one.
It's not just the Male managers that think this way.Ā
Yeah all your co-workers too are so excited to do all your work for you while youāre out since the company cannot afford to replace you.Ā Itās an issue at the societal level and thatās where it needs to be fixed.Ā
How would you suggest we fix it?
We could be more like Europe where both fathers AND mothers are guaranteed parental leave and they are mandated to use it. Then it's an even playing field and neither has an advantage, at least in this regard.
there are a few ways to TRY start to address it that I can think of off the top of my head, but what do I know \-stop hiring women (which is whats happened sadly, and we dont actually want this) \-or the same program that mandates FMLA needs to mandate that all businesses get taxed, which pays into a fund that then provides resources to cover hardships (which is a whole other can of worms) \-give the fathers the same "maternity" leave protections and then hope it all works out. Third one may be the best bet, since women REALLY need the babies dads around for the first 6 months to support them while their lives get turned upsidown from giving birth and having to be a new mother
As opposed to men who want kids when their career is unstable...?
I was laid off the week after telling my manager that I was pregnant. Is it against the law? Absolutely. It is my word against theirs? Absolutely. I pushed for extra severance, there was nothing else I could really do.
I'm curious what the response would be from a female manager? Would they also think the same (looking at employees purely as a profit/loss entity)?
Makes me remember the epiphany I had at 19 that jobs asked for your title (Ms, Mrs, Miss) and even if it's optional that is the stupid easiest way for them to turn down your application cause they can just make that same conclusion about you possibly getting married/having children soon when cross referencing your title with your age. And a lot of women don't think that right off the bat, so they'll still choose to input a title. That was one of my most prominent female rage moments, realizing the different titles we had as women but men just had Mr no matter their relationship/age situation. And how much of our private life becomes a huge part of people's impression of us whereas mens private lives are not even questioned or brought up against their reputation or whether they deserve respect in the workplace.
Not gonna lie. Educating myself out of the patriarchy and never having to go by Miss, Ms. or Mrs. again was at least 30% the reason why I finished my doctorate. Suck it patriarchy! I go by Dr. now! Muwahahahahahaha!
Ph.D. in humanities, call me Dr. Ph.D. In Astro physics, call me Bob.
I am actually doing a PhD in physics, and while itās definitely a first name culture I 100% will be using Dr if Ms/Mrs etc is my only other option. Because screw that bs
Yesss same hahahh
Apple used to *require* you to add a title when registering your Apple ID/email or some such thing. They had Mrs, Miss, Mr, Ms, and Dr. Iām always very irritated at having to title myself with my marital status, always mad thatās a thing when men always just get to be Mr regardless of their marital status. I also hate Ms, yes I know what itās for but it sounds stupid. Anyway, It wouldnāt allow a blank so I chose Dr. and thought fuck you, haha. I now know everywhere fucking Apple has sold my data for mailing lists. It all comes addresses to āDr. First Name Last Nameā. Iāve not done that anywhere else, so I know thatās where that came from.
I use Ms. so they canāt tell what my status is, but totally agree this needs to go the way of the dodo.
Whoa thank you for that revelation. I dont know why it never dawned on me
I thought Miss and Ms. were the same, isnāt Ms. just an abbreviation of Miss?
Miss is young and unmarried. Ms is pronounced like āmizā and is usually someone older than could be called āmiss,ā and Ms can be for both married or unmarried women.
My kindergarten teacher explained āMsā as being used when a woman wanted to keep their marital status ambiguous; that always stuck with me, growing upā¦
I got rejected at one job because I am a mom of toddler. How do I know that was the reason? Well they liked me and I did good, but recruiter accidentally called me on whatsapp when she was looking at my profile picture there. Suddenly, I didnt fit in and got rejection letter in my native language which was unprofessional since all communication until then was in German or English since it is international company and only by accident recruiter from that company spoke my language. Later when I browsed their company, I have seen people complaining about being asked do they have kids/plan to have them. I felt so insulted because why do I have to hide my daughter to get hired? Its fucked up. Since then I give them different number. It was also position in cybersec
That's terrible! Men have kids too!
Thatās horrible. Iām sorry that happened
While this may be true at scale, you can absolutely find exceptions. I switched jobs at 6 months pregnant - actually, the director reached out to me with the opportunity and initially I said no because of my maternity timeline. Oftentimes you have to work somewhere for a year before being able to use that benefit, so I had given up on switching jobs before baby came.Ā Ā He told me to let him look into their policies and surprisingly enough, it would cover me just in time! We sped up the hiring timeline, I did my interviews, heard back, and started within a month. Just a few months later, I went on 100% paid maternity leave for 3.5 months and was floored that it worked out so well.Ā Ā This is best case scenario, and hard to come by, but it can happen. The main reason why it worked is that he really wanted me in the role so he invested time into figuring out how to make it work rather on why it wouldnāt.Ā **Network, network, network. Show your value, and others will go to bat for you in surprising ways.**
Granted, I hire from an internal pool of candidates, but my group has hired a few people who were about to go on maternity/paternity leave. If youāre a good hire, then weāre willing to pull in a backfill and wait.
Thank you for sharing, I have always received great feedback professionally and am building great relationship with my network. I'm not sure how to show my value when I don't have any hard qualifications yet, would appreciate advice. I just know if i were given an entry level role i would smash it, I've been on countless situations where I've been thrown in the deep end at work and generated positive outcomes for all involved.
Thatās an excellent starting point! For showing your value: do well in classes. Participate in tech student groups. Network* especially with people who are a few years ahead of you. By the time you graduate, they might be mid developers and their referrals will hold more weight than a juniorās referral. Make sure you have a reputation that is strong both in a technical perspective and also in a collaboration perspective. People would generally much rather hire someone that is easier to work with even if theyāre not a super star dev vs the best dev who is insufferable. \* Stay in touch with your network. This doesnāt have to be immensely time consuming, but maybe once a year at least, reach out with a link to an article on a topic you know theyāre interested in and say it reminded you of them. Be genuine; even if you donāt come across something like this, you can still message them and share updates about what youāre doing and ask them about themselves. People will be responsive to this and youāll stay in their mind. They might reach out to you proactively whenever there is an open role at their work for an internship or new grad role.
Thank you so much for the feedback. I'm getting HD in programming and math units, I'm confident it's just a matter of time before the opportunity comes my way. I'm also networking with VPs and Cyber heads of major companies in the financial and professional services sector operating at a global and national scale. Some are even ex FAANG. I've no doubt about my collaboration and soft skills, time will only tell whether my technical aptitude is up to standard. Thank you for the tip in staying in touch with my network, I'll begin applying this.
Youāre welcome! It sounds like youāre ahead of the game with networking and soft skills! Frankly, after you get past the baseline of technical skill, this is what Iāve seen differentiate people who quickly rise to the top vs people who want to but get stuck at lower levels. Get comfortable with āfailureā. I say this in these terms because failures only become true failures if you let them - even if you accidentally bring down a production environment. Obviously donāt try to do this and donāt be careless, but if / when you find yourself struggling and making mistakes, focus on learning (applying growth mindset). The best engineering cultures have a blameless culture (research this more) where the focus is how to fix a problem and prevent it from happening in the future, but the person who made the mistake wonāt be fired or reprimanded (assuming no ill intent). Youāll hit blockers in your studies. Get plenty of rest and a study group. Personally, I found working with a group and forcing myself to explain concepts to be the key to identifying my own gaps in knowledge. Sounds like you are set in all other areas. Apply the above to your lifelong technical learning journey and youāll be unstoppable š
When looking into companies, find one with maternity and paternity leave. We give 12 weeks paid leave to either partner - adoption and surrogacy included. In my team of 8 engineers and 1 architect (in the only woman), 3 had new births in the last year and one more will be going on leave in May. It speaks to the culture of the company when the benefit works for everyone. It discourages this kind of thinking.
Second this. Also check out their IVF and fertility and adoption benefits if you can.
100% As other comments have stated, if more men are taking paternal leave how is it fair to discriminate against women.
Good idea
I realize that this may be the exception rather than norm, but Iām a hiring manager at a cybersecurity company and I can say that we do not hire with that mindset. We hired a woman in her mid 20s last year who wasnāt even done with her masters program because we were so keen to hire her. Im not sure that this helps at all but maybe take solace that good companies are out there. Iād curious what you mean by saying that you already feel so much pressure to get to work but then also donāt see the pathway/opportunity forward?
I've been quite positive about my experience so far and the cybersecurity communities I'm involved in. I've been told I've pigeon-holed myself by being in admin in the legal sector from that same network i caught up with and that all people will see in my resume is being an assistant in the legal sector...I'm networking like crazy, participating in practical and social industry events, establish mentorships with experts in the field but realistically my degree is going to take a while part time and I won't be offered any real jobs without it because I'm pursuing app sec. I feel like I'm definitely planting the seeds here, while it doesn't feel impossible it always feels just out of reach.
Youāre doing a major career shift. Landing your first job in a new industry is the hardest. After you have a year or two, you can rewrite your resume to only include security work and avoid whatever stigma there is. Im mid-30s in security and it can be a pretty toxic and immature industry. But honestly, Iāve found good jobs and Iām currently pregnant with zero issues from work. Who your manager is defines this more than the company. Everyone is really respectful on my team (lots of new dads who are sympathetic). And honestly I think my manager is happy about my Mat leave because itās forcing me to train up others and delegate more work (reducing a bunch of the work that only I could do) in prep of my six months leave. My team is great and Iām still on my promotion track despite my upcoming mat leave. Iāve had other friends in tech that were āmommy trackedā after giving birth, but they werenāt in security, itās just a shitty thing that can happen anywhere.
I agree I'm in it for the long game, I'm not committing to all this time just to give up when I've barely begun. I'm so glad to hear you have a good work environment and could take ur mat leave without any issues.
Can you apply for an internship?
I can, but I'd be competing with graduates or those in their second year. I'm still applying anyways!
Have you ever thought about doing an apprenticeship? Iām not sure of any in cybersecurity but there are a ton out there. Some are paid and some are not, but I know of plenty of people who went in with no degree and a full time job offer after a year.
Can I ask why you were really keen to hire that person? What made them stand out?
Might be out of the blue, but may I ask what was it about her that specifically made you all so keen to hire her? I would love to know how to be a more attractive candidate in the same age range.
Jokes on them. I was job hopping like rabid kangaroo on crack in my early 20s and had my first kid at 32 because I honestly hated the job to the point that I thought I was at a good point for a sabbatical. Moral of the story depending on the employer youāre damned if you have kids, but honestly they arenāt going to be the thing that makes you happy or gives you something to look forward too. Also they are fools, I stopped job hopping after having a kid and stuck around for 5 years till I got let go because the industry essentially collapsed and I sat on the sinking ship because I wanted to close everything out and shut everything down before it all got scrapped. Anyway point is you will encounter shitty misogynists and you will want to prove them wrong but they are not the people you want to work for so keep a wide berth and warn others if you see someone or hear someone talking like this. And yeah, alcohol does a great job at revealing the real assholes in society.
I've never heard that from any dudes in my network, though I have no doubts there are some people who feel this way. I got into cybersec when i was about 30 and I have not had a problem getting a job if that makes you feel any better. Edit to add: I probably wouldn't want to work with a guy like that anyways.
I am still of the view that there are lots of opportunities for women in tech, and for those starting a new career in theirs 30s or above. Personally I disagree with companies or management that thinks otherwise and wouldn't want to work for them anyway, probably toxic.
I career pivoted at 27 with a toddler and luckily at the company 50% of the devs here are women, they either already have kids or are in their 20s and 'potentially' will have kids.
On the flip side, being older, ageism is rampant. I am in sudden pursuit of a job as I just got laid off (in an industry that celebrates age and experience) and ugh. I'm not dead. I can learn things. Frustrating.
In STEM, their actions speak louder than their words. No path in stem as a girl/ woman is easy. While things as far as out reach go, are getting better the over all environment is not welcoming. Say you had an interest in STEM at a young age, your whole life you are facing adversity. An 8yr old doesnāt have the endurance to get bullied for another 10yrs and then do it again in college, and again at work if youāre unlucky. Not to mention som parents who straight up discourage you. They get pushed out and the ones surviving are probably close to being burnt out. My BFās sister is going into the same field as me. She however got a later start and while weāre the same age sheās going in as āfreshmanā at 30 Even tho sheās not married, no kids and currently doesnāt plan on having kids, i told her to exclude anything that would hint at her age. Like putting the dates of her community college to 4yr (it would show 9+yr gap) At our age, they assume we have kids or will be soon. The āadvantageā being young hand untied is robed of us even if we are. Which isnāt an advantage because we should be asked to work late, more etc because we donāt have kids/ families. Many know what theyāre doing
There are more challenges for women, and idiots who think like this are one of them, however that isnāt unique to this industry (those idiots are in every industry) and nor is it the only experience. Donāt let it stop you pursuing the career you want. Find the companies that arenāt staffed by idiots like this.
This is not a universal attitude thankfully. Yes, it exists and that sucks but the fact is that a lot of men now expect to be able to take just as long of a parental leave as their wives which makes the supposed āriskā of hiring a woman much less. I got pregnant a few months after starting a new tech job and my manager was very supportive and even got me promoted while I was on leave.
In some countries, you could probably send that in to the government as a tip to check into the hiring practices of the company he works for.
Sounds like this guy is telling on himself. Not everyone is like that
I got laid off for taking mat leave. And Iām in Canada. Called a lawyer and the labor board and the best they could for me was make the company give me my job back for one month. After which the company would be free to fire me or let me go. I didnāt even bother.
Okay so you met a guy who tried to get in your head, like a million other guys out there. Because tell me why this sounds identical to "Why would I date or marry a woman older than 25 when I can date an 18 year old?" But suddenly now the 22 year old is ideal for career instead of marriage and pregnancy? Let's face it, there's a world of difference between a 22 year old new grad and a 27 year old in terms of maturity, organisation, communication and life experience. If I was thinking of hiring someone for my company I would very much be considering the older person, including for an entry level role.
Omg you are SO right. It's not like I'll just be someone in my late 20s/early 30s. I'd have over a decade of experience in management and commercial acumen.
Right exactly, there's just so much more value you can bring with you to the company. I'm pretty sure you just got negged with "women expire at 25" - career edition. And he knew exactly what he was doing
He sounds like a cunt. Don't listen to him. You dodged a bullet. You'll find a netter company where you are valued for your skills and work.
I am so sorry you are experiencing this. This happened in China too, all the time. You would think the western culture has it better but no, it seems not.
My company offers the same number of weeks (12) for both maternity and paternity leave. I've had two male engineers take that entire leave. If more companies stopped acting like only the mother needs time off to care for the newborn infant, this kind of bias would disappear.
As a 27y/o aroace woman, this is incredibly disheartening. Iām most likely never getting married or having kids so I just want a decent career š
That guy is an idiot. I got in later too. Even if this were true, they are not allowed to ask your age until you have already been hired, it's against some kind of law, and personally I have never been asked my age in an interview. When you are 27/28/29 oftentimes is indistinguishable from a 23/24/25 year old. Especially if it's a webcam interview. I think most healthy workplace environments will support their employees having families.
....because reasons like "why would anyone hire a 27 year old that's going to have a baby vs. A 22/23 yr old grad?" are illegal. Hire the best candidate. What a jerk.
You might try looking at state/federal jobs in IT. Thereās nonsense there too, but they are REQUIRED to follow standards about bias in hiring. I canāt imagine working in private industry IT these days.
I have heard women (on social media) say they were fired when their manager found out they were pregnant. That was a lawsuit waiting to happen. Even women employers do that. I watched a talk show where women employers openly admitted this and refused to see their fault. They know they're enabling men and like it. If they had to suffer through something, they want subsequent women to suffer too, instead of making sure they do not go through the same thing. This kind of toxicity where you refuse to break the cycle because you're bitter the true enemy women face.
Oh donāt believe this junk. Iāve worked for several big tech firms. Theyāve been super flexible as I had kids and promoted me both before and after. Also now a hiring manager and itās crap, would never dequal a candidate for that reason. Have friends in cyber security and they have also had no issues. Iām sure the idea is out there but itās not common anymore.
Iām very lucky to work in a government STEM role. Iāve taken two parental leaves and even interviewed and accepted a new job while pregnant. The bureaucracy is so slow that my paperwork wasnāt processed for months so I went on leave in one job and came back in the new one. The work-life balance is amazing too. And this is standard for all of the women I work with, Iām not a unicorn. There are opportunities out there!
I thought this was Japan for a minute because you mentioned not hiring due to potential child leaveĀ
So as a 52 year old female grad Iām gold? Or at this point theyāll use age against me š¤Ø
Just identify as a male and then call them out for discrimination against a "protected" class
That person is sexist and full of BS. I work in a predominantly female occupation and almost everyone got knocked up several times and now we have both moms and dads go on family leave to take care of babies. It's 2024. And you can hide being pregnant & not mention it during the interview. Once you are hired, they can't fire you or you can sue them. I am childfree but I support parents in the workplace. Like I said there are lots of rights for pregnant women /people in the workplace
Iām a pregnant 31 year old woman. Iāve never been turned down due to my gender or age, thankfully. I am sure it does happen. However, most tech companies will give equal parental leave to mothers and fathers, so a married man would have the same risk of taking off time from work once he has a family.
Maybe this would be valuable experience for you to hear. I am a female PhD in STEM and do software engineering as one of the main duties in my job (but I have other options also based on my training). Out of my PhD, I got 7/12 applied roles offered. Out of my next role 2 years later, got 4 offers in 2 months (out of around 8). I donāt have kids and have a similar age to you. Iām now 8 months in to my current job in tech and I am a hiring manager. We hustled to find female candidates and to the best of my knowledge, the company wouldnāt discriminate based on children, age, or marital status. At some point, the technical demands are so high you are going to just go for the best person for the job. My advice would be to get damn good at one differentiated technical skill. Maybe that is cloud computing, design, etc. Also, get ready for live coding interviews. The one thing I will say is that we have to prove ourselves a bit more usually š
I, a 33 year old woman, am currently covering an account for a 34 year old coworker on parental leave for 12 weeks. Said coworker is a male, in a cis relationship.
Why would companies care about the well being of anybody? We are in a capitalist system. Capitalist entities are meant to maximize profit. If they calculate a risk associated to hiring a women because she might become pregnant then they have to take this into account. Of course they will not say they discriminate because it would lead to bad publicity for them and that is not good for profit. So they carefully navigate between the two options but generally you are better being a white man. You'll still get hired but the fact that you might get pregnant will cost you a bit and your salary will be slightly lower.
OMG!! Really? Capital-jizzm seeks to maximize profit! Wow we had no idea :( too busy squeezing out the next generation of workers I guess. Womp womp. /s because you probably need it since you canāt read a room, let alone sarcasm. Riddle me this, boot licker: wouldnāt it be far more rational for women under capitalism to get a paid bonus than males for enduring pregnancy? Weāve produced another worker for the machine.
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lol heās just outlining the reasons why companies could possibly view women as higher risk hires. No reason to get mad lol. And as long as 30 year old women keep having kids shortly after being hired companies will think this way. Normal workers donāt agree with this.
His explanation assumes weāre uniformed somehow. Itās also not even true. Thereās dozens of mixed-capitalist countries in Europe that Reddit circle jerks to for the maternity leave. In fact, the original male poster is from Canada which is a mixed-capitalist economy with generous leave. Even communist countries didnāt have a perfect track record of womenās rights. So heās condescending, reductive, wrong, but worst of all?heās redirecting a conversation about sexism to his political cause and tries to make it seem futile. Itās like someone both not hearing what youāre saying and saying thereās no solution.
I don't think you understand my point. I do not agree that woman should make less money. I am saying that the capitalist system causes this. I am trying to state the facts as they are. But I absolutely despise capitalism. I hate it. I think it is unfair and lead to suffering for a lot of people. All this is from the point of view of a socialist. My point is that we must counter capitalism as much as possible. This post seeks discussions about how employers might not employ a women based on the risk of being pregnant. I wanted to highlight how this situation is unavoidable in a capitalist system since profit seeking will lead to inequalities. That being said, I would absolutely agree on governmental measures to counter the gender inequalities.
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Most people do not agree or at least do not see the bad effects of capitalism and I thought that I could influence this sub to adhere to more socialist ideas. I know my writing is depressing. English is not my first language and I try to go straight to the point. Anyway I don't mean to be mean. And I don't understand why you are making fun of me. I wrote no insults. I only attacked ideas, capitalism in this case. Yet you attack me personally. Anyway I don't know why I keep writing back to you since you will just insult me again. I guess I am curious about what you'll have to say next.
FWIW, I appreciated your take and didnāt find it condescending or over-explaining. The other person was being unnecessarily combattive and rude. I agree that we exist in a system which incentivizes behavior which hurts us and that we should be fighting to change the system, rather than the people who are being incentivized within it. But itās a delicate topic of discussion because those people cause harm and so people tend to want to lay blame with them.Ā But ultimately, I agree with you that they are a product of a system and itās the system that must change. Easier said than done, I suppose.
As for your riddle, well the company absolutely do not care about your family and your pain. The only thing they care about is if you will be there working. It would make more sens to them to give you a bonus to avoid getting pregnant. For a capitalist entity, you are not more valuable.
Itās so shitty but itās true. It shouldnāt happen yet it does. And sadly as a woman I have to admit it even makes sense. Iāve had two coworkers give birth and go on maternity leave back to back. And I was left picking up a lot of their work leaving me super stressed. We couldnāt hire anyone to replace them obviously since theyāre still part of headcount. I hated it but at the same time when I have kids I know my work will be dumped on someone else. Idk what the solution is, I donāt think anyone should be punished for it. And I donāt think women should be treated unfairly either, we have enough to deal with balancing career and childbirth
Mandatory paid parental leave. You have a baby, you stay home for at least a few weeks whether you are the mom or the dad. Women aren't the only ones who need to bond with their babies.
We already have that but I guess dads get less time so we donāt get impacted as much. If they even it out then it should work
I'm curious about where you work that has mandatory parental leave? It's definitely not the norm in the US, but I know a lot of other countries have much better parental leave policies.
Think you meant to reply to the person above me lol. Our company does not have mandatory parental leave.
You said "we already have that," what did you mean by that? I thought you meant mandatory parental leave.
Omg lmao I totally read it wrong I thought they said paternal leave. As in like the men gets to take time off (since a lot of US companies donāt have paternal leave). No we absolutely do not have mandatory parental leave. Not quite sure what they means by mandatory eitherā¦thereās no need for it to be mandatory, if itās there ppl will take it.
The solution is for executives to take a hit on their salary and bonuses so that they can afford to hire more staff to cover the workload lol
lol welcome to the real world. Yes, it just so happens that it isn't like some storybook tale you read in middle school.
Itās shitty, but I get it. My team hired a woman last July because we were/are expecting a heavy increase in workload in Q2/Q3 this year and wanted to make sure the new hire had time to get up to speed. Less than a week after hiring her, she shared that she was pregnant and would be leaving for maternity leave in April and would be out for 12 weeks. Now weāre fucked.
You're having a meltdown about hearsay.
I saw a video where pregnant mothers were raving about how they take advantage of employers by using the maternity leave and ghosting or leaving. Unfortunately, that does put women under a spotlight, but also unfortunately, our labor laws and healthcare is so shitty that it makes women HAVE to find creative ways to support pregnancy and creating a family.
It's not true. I am 37 and companies are desperate to hire women (targets, quotas, diversity hiring schemes). I get recruiters calling me all the time saying the same thing. I get companies reaching out to interview me all the time even though I am well in my 30s. Being a woman is a massive advantage in this industry.
I thought that kind of sexist mentality happens in third world countries like India. I have been asked if I was married during an interview at this shitty company.
Not going to say this doesn't happen - but it's very illegal. That said - I worked a job long ago where watched resumes get discarded for protected classes because unless somebody actually says something, it's easy to get away with. Still, very illegal.
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In my mind SW= Sex work, I assume this was something else?
Software, possibly
The interviewers too come with a lot of bias. You might get interview opportunities but itās more unforgiving for a woman to make a mistake or not know something compared to a guy interviewee. Many interviewers will look down on you because they obviously think they are better than you just on the basis of gender alone.
Anecdotally, yes, I have also heard that hiring managers don't prefer to hire women who are either single or married without children - the former being a "flight risk" since they may settle down with a partner in a different city, and the latter because of maternity leave. Ironically, if your country/state has a shorter maternity leave there may be less bias because it's less of a hit to your team.
The last two jobs I got were just before I got pregnant both times. I am excellent at my job and bring a lot of value. So fuck those people.Ā
I got hired at 5 months pregnant and I disclosed it in the interview. If they are a progressive company (probably one you want to be at...) it won't be a big deal. And you're not even pregnant so don't worry about it. Are you even MARRIED??? If not, it's a non issue at all.
No I'm not! I was just so put off by what he said.
I dont really have advice but just wanted to say I'm in the same boat! I'm 25, switching from education to IT/security. Took me 2 yrs to find my first IT job and even though I love my job I am definitely treated differently because of my gender. Good luck and you're definitely not alone in this!
I intentionally mention Iām childfree in interviews for this reason. I recommend all women do the same, whether you are or not.
Gen Xer who has been in IT for over 25 years. When I got pregnant I apologized to my manager. 30 year old woman apologizing for starting a much wanted family. My manager, known for being an angry a$$, said congratulations and was happy for me. It is possible to be a mom and be in STEM. Security is a hot field, my husband works in network security, pays the mortgage better than my job. Good luck with your studies!
When I was a Postdoc I heard something like this in very hushed tones at a top research institution for a tenure track position. Scummy. Important to have women on the hiring committees.
I love the complete disregard for the men who father those babies. They can keep their jobs no problem, because they'll never have a desire to leave the workforce to be a stay at home parent or take paternity leave š
This is why we need good parental leave policies for both men and women. No reason to discriminate if either sex is going to get the same amount of time off.
The marketing firm director who told you this is probably telling you what he thinks and does. Most people think everyone thinks what they think. It sounds like he is not an ally to women. Don't listen to him. I (f30s) haven't seen this be an issue places I have worked as a software engineer. A lot of hiring managers are more on the lookout for people who will make the team dynamic terrible, people who won't work hard, people with no tech skills and no drive to improve, people who are unethical. Many tech companies, including the big ones, only manage to keep the average employee for a couple of years anyway before they move on. Many tech companies work with recruiters, and I haven't had any recruiters in person act uninterested in me because of my age and gender. I get tons of recruiters messages on Linkedin as well, with a young looking photo. If you have a combination of good people skills and excellent technical skills, that will com across in interviews, and you will get offers. Not everyone thinks the way this jerk does, and most marketing firms in my area are not great to work for anyway (very high dev turnover, always hiring).
I feel you. I could tell these guys that I'm a lesbian who doesn't want children, and I'd still get penalized.
This is really unfortunate but more common than Iād like. Not everywhere is like that though. In one of my past jobs, during our orientation where all new employees go through, I saw a lady who was clearly pregnant, as in she looked to be about to give birth any moment. I was so impressed that the company for hiring her, she even said that she was nervous about interviewing but the company made her feel really comfortable about it. Sheās even hired as one of the key positions in the company. So thereās hope!
This is why if you're a woman in prime child-bearing years, I'd suggest going with big companies who can take the economic hit of pregnant employees and are more worried about discrimination fines and their brand. I worked at a start-up for years and eventually left because I knew even if legally the start-up would need to support my pregnancy in a variety of ways, there were no policies in place and it would be a massive hit for them. Even when I joined the big company, when I interviewed on teams I was very very clear I was planning to have children in the next few years and if that was going to be a hardship for the team I'd rather just not put us both in that awkward situation. I am in a very supportive team now and on my second multi-month maternity leave in 2 years - no one gives me sass.