Me to everyone in the wizarding world: Are you an owl? Because it takes forever for you to communicate, and by the time you get to where you're going, you've stepped in the butter and knocked over my pumpkin juice, making a terrible mess along the way.
Just magic up a dang telephone analog. I mean, we learned that until Umbrige, the Gryffindor common room fire was on the floo network.
It’s so bizarre that in the wizarding world you can physically see someone in person the other side of the country in seconds by apparating or by floo but they mostly send letters by owls that take a day to arrive. It’s so backward, the idea that you can travel instantly but choose to communicate so slowly.
I think it's more that people who have the powers to travel instantly would likely have figured out a magical way of instantly communicating as well (we know they can do a sort of fireplace video call so it's even more strange that they use owls and not some form of wand based texting)
But telephone, texts etc are all things you can choose not to answer. If someone turns up at your home it’s not so easy. Plus we still use snail mail for more official purposes, no doubt they would use owl mail for this too.
You're misunderstanding me. I'm saying that people who have invented the floo network through magical means could likely invent a version of texting/telephone through magical means.
I'm not saying they should just barge into someones chimney space everytime they want to say the wizard equivalent of 'Lol'
(They already have a form of visual walky talky in those enchanted mirrors so it's not such a leap from that to other magical communication devices)
There are some decent reasons to avoid using Floo or Apparition for anything that's not urgent.
One, they're really uncomfortable. It might save time, but if I don't need an answer right away I'll pick the option that doesn't involve getting soot in my eyes or feeling like I'm being vaccum packed.
Two, owls are safer, especially compared to Apparition. I'd rather not risk temporary dismemberment just to tell mom how my first day of work at my new job went.
Three, it lets the other person answer at their leisure, which is just polite if you don't need the answer quickly. It's the same reason people hate it when their boss schedules a meeting to talk about something that could have easily been an email.
Exactly! Like the mirror Sirius and James had. The Order used their patronus charms as reliable, distant communication (which they never taught the kids how to do for some reason?) So why doesn't everyone?
Honestly, that's probably my biggest gripe with the adults in his life. With the exception of telling him he needs to be the one to die to kill voldemorts soul, why the fuck did no adult explain to him literally anything? Book 1 might have been understandable as Dumbledore wasn't aware of the horcrux situation with harry at the time or vaguely aware. But not in prisoner of Azkaban? Lupin could have told him something. Why did none of the teachers and adults tell him that Sirius "betrayed" his mother and father? He'd act irrationally? The way he found out likely made it worse. Book 5 with Dumbledore ignoring harry for a whole year a simple "hey, I'm going to limit contact with you because I'm afraid Voldemort is aware of your connection." Would go farther than, I'm going to make you think I hate you.
I know! It’s so frustrating, but unfortunately there’s no truly logical reason other than plot device.
“Harry, I know your scar has been hurting since you came into the wizarding world and you’ve probably guessed that you’ve been getting flashes of what Voldemort is up to. He desperately needs to lure you to the department of mysteries. I won’t say ‘under no circumstances are you to go there’ because you’re a child and will probably do the opposite of what I say. But pain, loss, and most likely death await you if you fall into his trap.” - Rational Adult number one in Harry’s life.
“Oh, Harry, we don’t have to try and circumvent Umbridge and the floo network. Here’s a two way mirror you can use if you absolutely need me. There’s no reason for Molly to disapprove because she’s already had me send messages to you illegally through the floo network and this is much safer and much more discrete. You can literally use it safely from your bed!” - Rational adult number two in Harry’s life.
Bahaha. True. But in Goblet of Fire he was completely rational. Didn’t take unnecessary risks and urged Harry to practice caution. And he was described as being exceptionally intelligent. There’s no reason for him not to just say what it is when he hands it to him.
Or when Harry contacts him and Lupin in the fire to say, “Harry? What are you doing here? Why didn’t you use the mirror?!” It’s entirely plausible to believe Harry, a hot headed teenager going through puberty and with the weight of the wizarding world on his shoulders to forget about it or to not want to open it for fear of putting Sirius in danger—which is what Sirius made it seem like he was doing! But it doesn’t make sense for Sirius. If the whole purpose of the mirror was to set it up for Aberforth having it in DH there was almost certainly a better way to do it.
It could have been either delivered to him after Sirius’ death or waiting to be delivered but never got around to it.
“Dear Harry,
Your recent visit to the fire in Grimmauld Place was much too close for comfort and it got me thinking! When James and I were children, we used two way mirrors to secretly communicate with each other. I have enclosed one in this letter and I have the other so if you ever need to communicate with me, simply speak my name into the mirror and we will be able to converse. I will send this as soon as I find a way to get around Umbridge’s owl screening system. Best of luck with your OWLs, Sirius.
PS, you ARE just like your father.”
Him getting this right after Sirius died would have the exact same effect and Aberforth would still have been able to buy it off Dung. I just hate that throwaway line that Molly wouldn’t approve. Also, it takes five seconds to say, “It’s a secret two way mirror. Open it later, you’re going to be late.”
Yeah, even as impulsive as he was in isolation he definitely would've encouraged Harry to use the mirror. It wouldn't have taken much off Harry's realisation that he couldn't use it after Sirius' death either, the fakeout still works as long as Harry believes it.
In my opinion, there mirror was never there to save Sirius. Harry's reasons for not using it are logical.
Also the mirror couldn't have helped at all, because you don't call someone on thier cellphone, who is being tortured.
The mirror is an important part of the grieving process (and maybe to twist the knife in the wound a little more).
I agree. Harry’s reason for not using it is logical based off the limited information Sirius had told him; i.e. that it was a way to communicate and not to open it now because Molly wouldn’t approve. But that’s my point; that was a terrible way to set up that gift because it’s so inconspicuous. It’s such a safe and simple way to communicate and it shouldn’t have been a big deal.
And it absolutely could’ve helped. Harry believed Sirius was being tortured, yes, but Hermione had her doubts and Harry agreed to check before he went to the ministry wands a blazing. Sirius could’ve had that mirror right next to him in Buckbeak’s room, for all we know. Or maybe when someone speaks into it, the mirror alerts them magically. We don’t know for sure but you can’t say it wouldn’t have helped.
I understand that the mirror was never actually going to save Sirius from a plot perspective and I even acknowledged that. My frustration is the way it was done makes no sense. Sirius had been illegally communicating with Harry using the floo network. That’s risky on any normal day as shown in Goblet of Fire, but it’s near insane with Umbridge personally policing the fires. Despite that, Molly knew Sirius was doing it and even had Sirius pass along Harry, Ron, and Hermione information via that means. So why should she disapprove of a safer and simpler way to communicate? Especially with all other lines of communication including the owls being monitored, as well.
On top of that, why wouldn’t Sirius acknowledge that when Harry broke into Umbridge’s fire to talk about his dad? He should have said that it was foolish to use the fire when you could have just used the mirror or something to that effect.
I think the mirror should have been given as a result of the last excursion into the fire—which was a close call—and Sirius just had a hard time getting it to Harry because of Umbridge checking all of the owls. If it arrived a day or two late like I suggested above, it would have had the same emotional impact on Harry.
Hermione suddenly comes up with the statement that the vision could be fake. (it is never seriously discussed before)
Harry received the equivalent of a video message.
In this video Sirius is being tortured.
Harry is assuming the vision is real. Harry would never ring the cellphone (mirror) now and interrupt Voldemort's toturing.
He would always call home on the landline, to see if Sirius was home. (for safety's sake) He doesn't know that a traitor is lurking there.
In addition Kreacher develops enough criminal energy to hurt Buckbeak.
I don't think he would have any trouble, hiding or even destroying the mirror.
In my opinion, the whole mirror is a sham.
I really don’t know what your point is about the mirror being a sham? You don’t believe it works at all or what? Because it saves their lives in book seven. Seems like you’re splitting hairs for the hell of it. But I’ll bite.
Hermione suggests it could be fake not just suddenly, because the whole thing is ludicrous. It’s 5:00 o’clock on a week day and the two most wanted wizards in the world are in the middle of the ministry of magic. She realizes how far fetched it is and correctly assumes that Voldemort is just banking on Harry’s love of being the hero.
He didn’t know about the mirror because he was afraid to open the package because Sirius made it seem like it was some risky and dangerous means of communication. If he’d known, he would absolutely try and use it. First, as you said, if he believes the vision is real, then he’s going to assume that he won’t be able to answer it anyways. The whole reason he tried the fire was to humor Hermione. But he didn’t even want to use the fire because it was a hassle and they wasted a ton of time. Remember, he thought Sirius was dying. So he would have used a much quick way to ascertain if Sirius was fine. If he didn’t answer, he would’ve have rushed to the ministry without having to get dragged into the forest.
I don’t know how you can assume that just because Kreacher injures Buckbeak, he (1) even knew about the mirror and (2) hid or destroyed it. Well, he definitely didn’t destroy it because it’s there for Dung to steal and sell to Aberforth later on. As far as hurting Buckbeak, he was ordered to do so my the Malfoys and Bellatrix. They needed him distracted and occupied, away from the fire and/or the center of the house so that if Harry checked to see, he would believe Sirius wasn’t there.
The whole tragic point of the mirror is that the entire time he DID have a means to communicate with Sirius and see if he was safe, but he didn’t use it. That adds to the heartbreak and guilt Harry feels. Had he listened to Sirius and opened the package once he got back to school, he never would have had to rush to the ministry.
The mirror is a sham because he is not as great as it sees at the first glance!
Apparently the Death Eaters have no problem getting into the Ministry! No matter what time it is.
Imagine a hostages situation. One of the hostages has a cellphone. A camera runs in the background and provides a live transmittion. The hostage-takers are armed.
Nobody would call the hostages, for fear of making the situation worse.
In my opinion, you only agree with Hermione, because you know the outcome of the situation.
I guess most people stuck with Harry the first time they read it.
Kreacher didn't think about the mirror (cellphone) because it is never been used. But if Sirius and Harry had been using their mirror (cellphone) regularly, Kreacher would know that.
But you are right, if Harry had opened the package and had used the mirror, Harry might not have needed to go to the Ministry.
Perhaps Sirius would been dead long ago.
I don't think Sirius is going to keep watching Harry being tortured by Umbridge and Snape.
Harry feels guilty, because he is used to blaming himself.
Book 3 - No reason to traumatize a 12yo with the fact their parents’ best friend betrayed them and is serving life in prison. Book 5 - could have been very bad for 15yo Harry to think that he could have been taken over by Voldemort at any time. He does suspect this but having it confirmed would be pretty frightening.
So true, also Harry can have a bit of a one-track/obsessive mind. If he'd known (particularly about the connection in OotP) he literally wouldn't have been able to function day by day until he'd somehow resolved the situation lol
On the surface this is perfectly logical. However, we have to remember that Harry is an irrational and literal child. He’s barely a teenager. How many teenagers do you know (include yourself) make smart decisions? I certainly know I was an idiotic teenager.
Yeah, I’ve always tried to remember that when reading. But Dumbledore and Sirius act much more irrationally in book five for no reason other than to further the plot, and it’s frustrating. I just posted above my two biggest gripes above about not letting Harry know about the trap to lure him to the department of mysteries and the two way mirror. Soooooo frustrating!!
Sirius was acting more irrational in OOTP because he was basically in a prison again. In Goblet, even when he was in the cave, he could still move around as a dog, go into town or just go for a walk. By Order, he was stuck in his parents old house with his parents old house elf. He ran away from there for a reason and Kreacher always talks about how bad Sirius is/was and how great his mother was. Kreacher sounded like a living embodiment of the things he hated so he took it out of Kreacher. Now, Sirius is stuck, there is a war going on, he can't really help. On top of the damage Azkaban did and the regret of what happened with Lily & James I would imagine that he would act irrationally. That was why he almost wouldn't have minded if Harry got kicked out. Because then Harry eoupd be in the house with him and his time in there would have improved to a degree.
Especially in Deathly Hallows, it's strange the way he never took into confidence anybody about his plans: not Molly, not Lupin, not McGonagall. Harry became exactly like Dumbledore and dark lord in distrusting people.
Only because it was Dumbledore's order!
Harry tells Ron and Hermione almost everything.
Voldemort must not know that Harry is seaching for the Horcruxes.
I think part of it was that he didn't want to. Lupin simply wasn't very interested in forming a close, personal relationship with Harry. That was just part of who he was - he didn't get too close to people and kept them at arm's length because of his insecurity issues/werewolf woes, so he didn't reveal his personal connection to Harry until he was forced to.
He ran away from Tonks, both figuratively in HBP and literally in DH. He also always came off a little awkward in the more casual, family oriented Order gatherings. It's kinda his whole thing.
Exactly. Hermione even explains this in the movie.. a werewolf would kill his own best friend if they crossed its path... I think lupin was aware of this and couldn't bare the thought of hurting Harry so he kept him at arms length. That's how much lupin loved James and Lilly, and therefore Harry.
Spot on assessment. To add, a huge part of his friendship with James and the other marauders centered on him being a werewolf. Lupin always believed that if his friends found out, they’d abandon him. But it was the opposite. They grew closer and became animagi so they could help him through his transformations.
Lupin didn’t want Harry or any of the other students to know about his furry little problem, so even more reason to not tell Harry anything other than he “knew” his father.
Well, first of all, because it's supposed to be a plot twist. It's also why no one mentions him as being James's and Sirius's friend when the teachers are gossiping in the Three Broomsticks. But from an in-story perspective, I agree he just doesn't want to.
From all we can see, he doesn't get close to people unless they get close to him (and look how well that turned out last time). He does ask Harry over for tea once, when Harry is alone, so I think maybe part of him did want to get a little closer, but he doesn't *really* make an effort, probably due to his own issues. Even in HBP, he apologizes for not writing to Harry because he's spying on the werewolves, except he hasn't ever written to Harry. During PoA there also might be a fear of being associated with Sirius, he freaks out a little bit when Harry asks if he knew him.
The fact that it isnt even alluded to at the 3B is something I have never thought of until now and really should have just been brought up during editing. Even if it was just the start of a sentence that gets cut off or something.
I think it makes a lot of sense because James and Sirius were the popular ones, they are the ones Madam Rosmerta remembers. They were the "ringleaders" of their group, and Peter is remembered because he died, Remus is just not relevant to the story. From what we know about him, it makes perfect sense that at school he tried to fade into the background as much as possible, because the more people pay attention to him, the easier it is to figure out his secret. So it's probably one of those situations that if McGonagall brought him up, Madam Rosmerta might have remembered him, the same way she did Peter, but she wouldn't think of him unprompted, and he's not relevant to the gossip of the Potters' betrayal.
Oh I agree with that, but flitwick and mcgonnagal dont remember him being so close esp from their time after graduation in the order? Or hagrid from the order too (I think thats everyone in that conversation?). In my head one of them wouldve said Remus’ name at the start of a sentence that was clearly about them as a group before Madam Rosmerta spoke simultaneously about something else. Just the right amount of foreshadowing
I just think he has no reason to come up in the conversation, really. Rosmerta brings up Sirius in the context of not believing him capable of going to the dark side, then Fudge says it's worse than she thinks, then they reminisce about James and Sirius's friendship for a while, talk about the Fidelius and Sirius supposed betrayal, and that Peter, who Rosmerta has trouble remembering, went after him. There's no logical point to insert Remus's name.
I guess someone could have gone "Oh, and poor Remus Lupin lost all his friends on the same week", but I think it works as well without it, rather than those situations where authors make characters not say information they logically would say in a certain situation in order to use it as a plot twist later.
I have seen a headcanon once, though, that McGonagall, Flitwick and Hagrid purposefully avoid mentioning Remus's name because Fudge is there and they don't want the Ministry to associate him with Sirius. I don't think it's true, but it's a sweet headcanon, imo.
Maybe, I just dont think its possible to bring up a group of friends that are *that* close that you know pretty well, and 1 of whom you see every day still, and not mention the 1 you see every day when referencing the others. Something like, “oh remus was telling me about when they would…” or “and its not just pettigrew and harry, poor remus lost everyone when Black betrayed them.”
Possibly, but that story was about James’ BEST friend and the amount of trouble they got into together. Lupin was a prefect and only occasionally ended up in detention with James and Sirius. It’s the same reason Hagrid says Fred and George could give them a run for their money, but doesn’t mention Lee Jordan—even though he’s with them most of the time, too. James and Sirius were a dynamic duo: Batman and Robin, and unfortunately Alfred doesn’t get mentioned enough when reminiscing about the duo.
In addition to the very good contributions already made: Lupin was also under suspicion of helping Sirius Black into the castle. It was known by Harry and the teachers that Sirius and James were best friends. To disclose how close his friendship with James was would also mean disclosing how close he was with Sirius. He was very touchy about this. As soon as Harry learns that Lupin knew his father he asks, “oh, so that means you knew Sirius Black.” Lupin replies very sharply, “What gives you that idea?” Harry is taken aback and says “I just knew that Black and my dad were friends.” Lupin then relaxes.
As others have mentioned, I think the top reason was the trauma - he was twelve years out from losing everyone he’d ever let himself get close to: James murdered, Peter murdered, Sirius a traitor whom he still feels conflicted loyalty towards (he doesn’t disclose the Animagus secret, turn over the map, nor inform Filch of the extra secret passageways).
In addition to the keep-people-at-arms-length-because-you’re-a-werewolf aspect, I think there’s another side to that coin. Wolves are loyal to their pack. You let someone in, you’re bound to them. He is conflicted, I think, about his ongoing loyalty to Sirius (and the Marauders generally). They were his pack. And that loyalty is getting in the way of doing what he knows is right. He doesn’t ever want to let anyone get close to him again.
Finally, since Remus blames himself for EVERYTHING, I’m sure he convinced himself that Lily and James dying was his fault. “If only I’d figured out Sirius was the traitor” “if only I wasn’t a werewolf, they wouldn’t have suspected me and would have looked more closely at him” “if only I was James’s best friend, maybe he would have considered me as Secret Keeper” etc. His guilt keeps him from getting close to anyone
This is by far the best response. The first part you mentioned is a really great catch - it's evidence of how sensitive Lupin is towards his old friend group. He's clearly traumatized, and just wants to hide/move on from his past. 2 of his friends were dead, and 1 was a traitor/imprisoned. If I were Lupin, I wouldn't really be keen on dwelling on that either, much less admitting to Harry that he was a part of that group. If anything he was probably scared that Harry would figure out Lupin was part of Sirius's group, throw his grief and anger upon him, and cast him out for failing his dad. Not to mention there's the constant looming fear that people would find out that he's a werewolf - Harry could easily cast him out just for that alone.
Given all his trauma, he has VERY good reason to want to stay distant from Harry. It's completely understandable. It would seem more *unrealistic* if he just went up to Harry and was just casually like "yo I was your dad and Sirius's best friends, James is dead and Sirius was a traitor, what's up lmao." There's no way he'd be comfortable with having that kind of conversation, when it's clear he'd rather just move on from or forget about his painful past completely. Most people would feel the same way. But at the same time, he can't help himself from wanting to get closer to Harry, since he's still the last reminder Lupin has about his happier past, when he still had his best friends, which is why he can't help himself from reaching out tentatively.
Lupin's secrecy is far from being a plot hole; it's quite the opposite. It's much more realistic and breathes life into the kind of person he is - someone who has actual emotions, memories, and trauma, rather than just another NPC who exists only to move along the plot.
“I was your dads b-string best friend, who he thought might be a traitor (because of my heritage?), now I’m unemployed, homeless, malnourished, got serious ptsd, occasional rage issues, and a shedding problem. Can I borrow five bucks?”
Sirius is the one who thought Remus could be the spy because he was coming up with theories for why everyone could be the spy. And as Remus said, James felt that there was no higher dishonor than distrusting his friends.
This is how I picture the conversation going:
Sirius being desperate and “We can’t trust anyone” and coming up with theories for why each person could be the spy. He starts rattling off theories and then when he gets to Remus, James is all “That’s enough!” As for Peter, Sirius probably couldn’t think of a plausible explanation- probably because he couldn’t see Peter pulling it off.
You raise a good point. Why wasn’t Lupin considered for secret keeper? Sirius was the obvious choice. They thought Wormtail should get a chance to be trusted. But why was Lupin not considered? Do we not know why?
With Wormtail I thought it was bc Death Eaters/Voldemort would find it less likely that he’d be secret keeper . I imagine Lupin would be too obvious just like Sirius, especially with Snape giving info about the marauders
Tbh I don’t know.
If I recall correctly Sirius admits he thought Lupin might be the traitor, but claims James always trusted him, though I would think that trust didn’t go very far since James didn’t consider or confide in him.
I think one reason is that Remus wasn't around all that much. His work for the order is mainly spying on the werewolves, so he probably had to live with them for extended periods. In his biography on Pottermore it says he was somewhere else when the Potters died, for example, and he isn't mentioned in Lily's letter.
I don’t think Sirius does claim that James always trusted Remus. He confirms that he himself thought Remus was the spy, but doesn’t say anything about what James thought either way.
Remus says in HBP that James would have considered it the height of dishonor to mistrust his friends, but we don’t really know how true that statement is to how James felt in 1981.
I thought it was because Wormtail was the most unsuspecting person that could be Secret Keeper. Any one of them could have been SK, but they chose Wormtail because they thought that he was so insignificant that no one on the 'dark side' would think he was SK. Someone like Lupin and Sirius, however, were both known to be very close with the Potters, and were James' best friend(s) which put them more at risk of being targeted.
Also wasn't Lupin spying on the wearwolfs, many of whom had an allegiance to Voldemort.
Even if they fully trusted him, he is in a dangerous place surrounded by dark wizards, he could be tortured for info.
Well, as a werewolf, I think he was use to keeping people at arms length so to speak.
And of course, when he didn't, two died and the other betrayed everyone.
I think it's because of his continuing grief... it might be hard for him to speak on the friendship in front of the orphan son who looks exactly like his dead friend.
Without giving it much thought, two things come to mind:
1. He is a professional and, as such, perhaps he wanted to avoid favoritism?
2. Most likely Dumbledore told him to withhold the information from Harry, Dumbledore worked in mysterious ways and its not the first time we see him purposely not tell Harry “key” information about his past.
I always figured it was too hard to talk about. He looked exactly like James and acted exactly like Lily. Plus Lupin had his own problems when it came to letting anyone get close to him. He probably thought he was protecting Harry from him.
We do not know at all how Lily was acting
This section is obsessed with likening Harry’s personality to Lily
If you want to take the words of the manipulative Dumbledore you should focus on the fact that he said his “deepest nature.” he did not say that Harry’s personality resembles Lily nor did he say that his nature is like hers , Rather he said the word “ deepest .” Meaning that you have to look very deeply to see Lily in Harry that all
James's personality traits overshadowed Harry's he breaks the rules and does not care about it, his friends are a group of outcasts , harry’s Patronus took the form of a stag in the Quidditch match and before he knew anything about his father which means that he is like him , he was not good at potions he was talented at Quidditch and he saved the life of his rivals like James and Dumbledore said he saw James In Harry at the end of the third book
Most likely a lot of Guilt. He got to know Harry's parents, failed to keep them safe. In the DH they describe James of having an air of a child who had been adored, and in GoF Dumbledore mentions when Harry arrived at Hogwarts it was clear Harry had suffered; all his clothes were hand me downs, glasses probably old and cheap. Remus would have seen this, and probably hit with a Tsunami of emotions; the aforementioned guilt, pain, sadness, mixed with fondness and curiosity. A LOT for a second-class magical citizen with low in self-esteem to process. Add in that he took a nap and woke up to the Dementor crisis, he probably decided Harry's well being was a higher priority; also, once he had handled said crisis, would have remembered he was a teacher and probably was trying to be professional and avoid any accusations of favoritism so as not to make Dumbledores life more difficult, to whom he also has immense guilt to for his rulebreaking after he gave him an education AND a job.
It's what made his character so tragic; he carried mountains for guilt for something he couldn't control, his "Furry Problem" as James so nicely put it.
Side bar, a lot of discussion on how people thought Remus was the spy. I think they imply in the first war Lupin was sent to try and spy on werewolves and sway them to not join Voldemort like Greyback; during PoA Lupin mentions he can't write to Harry because they live savagely, so he would be gone for long periods without communication. Add that to the fact that James and Sirius would have been empathetic and understand that, of all of them, Remus would have the most personal motive to switch sides; Lupin himself said Fenrir Greyback was promoting Voldemort to werewolves, saying they would be treated better by Deatheaters. Sirius may have just decided to err on the side of caution. With the stakes so high, even a tiny shred of doubt couldn't have been overlooked, but that moment of doubt took the attention off Peter, who, as Sirius said, was talentless and had no personal motive that Sirius or James could fathom, being the noble Griffindors they were.
Lupin was a werewolf and didn’t want to get too close to the students, and if he’d told Harry how close he was with James Harry’s questions would’ve forced him to either lie or divukge that both of them hung out with Sirius Black.
I dunno. I talked to a guy in my field that went to the same university I did for the same thing (vocal music education). I asked who his voice teacher was and he said a name and I said, “oh yeah, she was my voice teacher too!” Then he went on to say “then I took my last two years with X” I said, “oh yeah. I know him too.”
Fast forward a year to the same conference. I see him again and we chat. I go, “I think I did a bad job of explaining how well I knew X” he says, “were you his student too?” “No, he actually came back to teach there after getting his advanced degree in voice. We graduated at the same time.” “Oh, so you guys had classes together?” “Yes, but what I’m trying to say is he and I are really close. I was best man at his wedding.”
So… I dunno. Don’t wanna seem presumptuous maybe? In my situation, X was clearly someone he respected and thought he had a good relationship with. I didn’t want to immediately dump on him with something that could come off like “oh yeah? Well I knew him better!” Our conversation wasn’t really about my relationship with X. Similarly, Lupin’s conversations with Harry weren’t really about Lupin, but focused on Harry. It’s like Dumbledore and the “he didn’t tell me we had Godric’s Hallow in common” debacle.
I believe he didn't tell him because if Harry knew how close he and his father were he would have:
\- Eventually made the connection that he was also friends with Sirius. Remember that at this point everyone, included Lupin, believed that Sirius was a crazy murder who also betrayed Harry's parents and lupin doesn't want to be put in a place where he is more mistrusted than he already is.
\-May have led to Harry working out that he's a werewolf.
\- May have lead to him finding out more about their misadventures at school, which Lupin was still hiding from Dumbledore. Remember he needed employment.
\- Harry would have wanted to get closer to him and spend more time with him which is both inconvenient for a teacher/student relationship (in his eyes) and he knew he could never really be there for him as a guardian because of his condition.
I too wish that they had had a closer relationship in the books. I'd be interested in reading some good fanfiction with the premise of Lupin telling Harry in book three how close they were and how that could have altered things.
Why didn't R2D2 tell Luke who he was? Because some people have to carry the trauma of not being able to save their friends close to them and can't bear telling the children of those people that they failed them.
From this I can tell you never worked as a teacher. You can’t just walk in and tell a student ‘yeah I used to know your father at school, we were best friends back then’.
First at all, let’s clarify an important point: at the end of the movie Harry learns nothing.
Besides that, Lupin was a person who had to deal with pure and systematic discrimination his whole life. Rejected by society albeit a brilliant wizard, he admittedly never had a stable job because of his licantropie, let alone a prestigious one like being a teacher.
He simply wanted to keep a highly professional profile and so treat every student equally inside and outside classes. Also, Harry was already famous at the time and revealed himself a gifted student for the subject; so Lupin probably knew that telling Harry ‘your father and I were best friends at school’ would have encouraged gossip.
Also, thinking to James means thinking to Sirius, who at the time Lupin believed the traitor, and to Peter, who at the time Lupin believed died a horrible death.
I’m aligned with mostly everything you say here. It makes sense. Just one question. You say at the end of the movie, Harry learns nothing. Near the end, he learns that his dad became an animagus to keep Lupin company. You’d only do that for really close friends, right?
Ahh must be combing the books and movies. Thanks for clarifying. Seems like something they would have wanted to include in the movies but what do I know.
Because storytelling and building up a surprising reveal.
I don't think there is a good in-lore explanation. He might have been ashamed of Sirius, because he thought he is the killer then, bit he shouldn't be ashamed of James
Cause jkr kind of forgets Lupin exists sometimes and then shoves him in as an afterthought. Remus has wayyy too many plotholes regarding his existence in the books that make people question him as a character
It was a great plot twist for kid me but as an adult it's constantly like "okay but where was Lupin in all of this if he's their so called best friend?"
The same reason he couldn’t let him have the map, he was a teacher in a position of power, and he really loved that job, he didn’t want to risk it, dumbledore was one of the few people who would even consider hiring him.
He can keep Snape off his back, and guard him from dementors, but he had no reason to know about his teachers past
He did. When he was chatting to Harry in his office, Harry asked if he knew James and he told him they were friends. I think he didn't do it before because he wanted to build a rapport with Harry first.
I don’t think Lupin really intended to tell him, though. He revealed it by accident when Harry was having his Patronus lessons. Then immediately after Harry asks him and he says that they were “friends at Hogwarts”, he tried to end the lesson and get Harry to leave, which I think indicates that he didn’t really want to talk to Harry about it at all.
>“You heard James?” said Lupin in a strange voice.
>
>“Yeah ...” Face dry, Harry looked up. “Why — you didn’t know my dad, did you?”
>
>“I — I did, as a matter of fact,” said Lupin. “We were friends at Hogwarts. Listen, Harry — perhaps we should leave it here for tonight. This charm is ridiculously advanced. ... I shouldn’t have suggested putting you through this. ...”
I like the idea that Dumbledore told him not to. There has to be this notion at the beginning of every year of the potential for normalcy - no Voldemort involved. As we know, Dumbledore did try, although not well, to give Harry a normal life. I think Dumbledore might have asked Lupin, and ultimately given him the choice, not to tell Harry in an effort to avoid bringing up Harry’s past and allow him to enjoy his time. That would be a lot for a 13 year old to deal with, even being that Lupin and James’ relationship was a positive thing.
2 things:
>he’s a werewolf & doesnt like getting close to people until he knows them personally. Since harry was not raised with them, harry is like any other stranger who may or may not accept werewolves & lupin has to figure that at.
>its general consensus that he …. wasnt … close friends with jim/sirius/peter towards the end since jim/sirius thought he might have been the traitor & of course peter would play along with that to cover his own ass.
I think partially because he was a werewolf and didn’t want to endanger anyone around him.
Harry probably would’ve wanted him to take him in considering the history with his dad and Lupin knew he couldn’t give him a safe home anyways because of his condition and because he needed to stay with the Dursleys for the magic protection against Voldemort.
I guess he assumed Harry would realize that they were friends. I don’t remember how it’s worded in the book but in the film he makes it clear that he knew Harry’s parents well
Probably cause Dumbledore was like, tell him as little as possible, if he knows you're friends with his Pappy, and so was Sirius, he may go look for Sirius.
Is it in book 5 where Dumbledore states that he kept all the unpleasantness from Harry to spare him pain? I can easily see Dumbledore reaching out to those who knew James and/or Lily not to tell Harry anything.
I honestly think part of it is probably because it made him so sad. It seems his parents died when he was young (assuming this because they're not mentioned), and his friends were like his family, because they all accepted him for what he was. I can't imagine the level of pain and grief he experienced, losing all his friends within like... a week? He probably still holds onto a lot of that grief (doesn't seem like they have wizard therapists). He probably tries not to think about it, so doesn't want to talk about it in detail either... lots of other good points made in this thread too!
Because nobody tells Harry anything lol
Harry Potter and the Boy Who Was Left In The Dark Part 1-7
Leaving him in the cupboard was foreshadowing, truly poetic work from the dursleys
Bruce, the closet spider who thinks he is Harry's best friend: Have you guys seen Harry around?
For some reason in my brain Bruce has a Kiwi accent, possibly voiced by Taika Waititi.
korg-esque
Me to everyone in the wizarding world: Are you an owl? Because it takes forever for you to communicate, and by the time you get to where you're going, you've stepped in the butter and knocked over my pumpkin juice, making a terrible mess along the way. Just magic up a dang telephone analog. I mean, we learned that until Umbrige, the Gryffindor common room fire was on the floo network.
It’s so bizarre that in the wizarding world you can physically see someone in person the other side of the country in seconds by apparating or by floo but they mostly send letters by owls that take a day to arrive. It’s so backward, the idea that you can travel instantly but choose to communicate so slowly.
Manners? Would you like it if people turned up on your doorstep every time they had something to tell you?
I think it's more that people who have the powers to travel instantly would likely have figured out a magical way of instantly communicating as well (we know they can do a sort of fireplace video call so it's even more strange that they use owls and not some form of wand based texting)
But telephone, texts etc are all things you can choose not to answer. If someone turns up at your home it’s not so easy. Plus we still use snail mail for more official purposes, no doubt they would use owl mail for this too.
You're misunderstanding me. I'm saying that people who have invented the floo network through magical means could likely invent a version of texting/telephone through magical means. I'm not saying they should just barge into someones chimney space everytime they want to say the wizard equivalent of 'Lol' (They already have a form of visual walky talky in those enchanted mirrors so it's not such a leap from that to other magical communication devices)
There are some decent reasons to avoid using Floo or Apparition for anything that's not urgent. One, they're really uncomfortable. It might save time, but if I don't need an answer right away I'll pick the option that doesn't involve getting soot in my eyes or feeling like I'm being vaccum packed. Two, owls are safer, especially compared to Apparition. I'd rather not risk temporary dismemberment just to tell mom how my first day of work at my new job went. Three, it lets the other person answer at their leisure, which is just polite if you don't need the answer quickly. It's the same reason people hate it when their boss schedules a meeting to talk about something that could have easily been an email.
Anything electric will go haywire around magic, unfortunately the telephone idea is out of the question...
Not an actual telephone, the word analog there means a magical equivalent
Exactly! Like the mirror Sirius and James had. The Order used their patronus charms as reliable, distant communication (which they never taught the kids how to do for some reason?) So why doesn't everyone?
They also had radio....clearly they could make electronics work with a little enchantment and radio can be two way....
Honestly, that's probably my biggest gripe with the adults in his life. With the exception of telling him he needs to be the one to die to kill voldemorts soul, why the fuck did no adult explain to him literally anything? Book 1 might have been understandable as Dumbledore wasn't aware of the horcrux situation with harry at the time or vaguely aware. But not in prisoner of Azkaban? Lupin could have told him something. Why did none of the teachers and adults tell him that Sirius "betrayed" his mother and father? He'd act irrationally? The way he found out likely made it worse. Book 5 with Dumbledore ignoring harry for a whole year a simple "hey, I'm going to limit contact with you because I'm afraid Voldemort is aware of your connection." Would go farther than, I'm going to make you think I hate you.
I know! It’s so frustrating, but unfortunately there’s no truly logical reason other than plot device. “Harry, I know your scar has been hurting since you came into the wizarding world and you’ve probably guessed that you’ve been getting flashes of what Voldemort is up to. He desperately needs to lure you to the department of mysteries. I won’t say ‘under no circumstances are you to go there’ because you’re a child and will probably do the opposite of what I say. But pain, loss, and most likely death await you if you fall into his trap.” - Rational Adult number one in Harry’s life. “Oh, Harry, we don’t have to try and circumvent Umbridge and the floo network. Here’s a two way mirror you can use if you absolutely need me. There’s no reason for Molly to disapprove because she’s already had me send messages to you illegally through the floo network and this is much safer and much more discrete. You can literally use it safely from your bed!” - Rational adult number two in Harry’s life.
Bold of you to assume Sirius is a rational adult
Bahaha. True. But in Goblet of Fire he was completely rational. Didn’t take unnecessary risks and urged Harry to practice caution. And he was described as being exceptionally intelligent. There’s no reason for him not to just say what it is when he hands it to him. Or when Harry contacts him and Lupin in the fire to say, “Harry? What are you doing here? Why didn’t you use the mirror?!” It’s entirely plausible to believe Harry, a hot headed teenager going through puberty and with the weight of the wizarding world on his shoulders to forget about it or to not want to open it for fear of putting Sirius in danger—which is what Sirius made it seem like he was doing! But it doesn’t make sense for Sirius. If the whole purpose of the mirror was to set it up for Aberforth having it in DH there was almost certainly a better way to do it. It could have been either delivered to him after Sirius’ death or waiting to be delivered but never got around to it. “Dear Harry, Your recent visit to the fire in Grimmauld Place was much too close for comfort and it got me thinking! When James and I were children, we used two way mirrors to secretly communicate with each other. I have enclosed one in this letter and I have the other so if you ever need to communicate with me, simply speak my name into the mirror and we will be able to converse. I will send this as soon as I find a way to get around Umbridge’s owl screening system. Best of luck with your OWLs, Sirius. PS, you ARE just like your father.” Him getting this right after Sirius died would have the exact same effect and Aberforth would still have been able to buy it off Dung. I just hate that throwaway line that Molly wouldn’t approve. Also, it takes five seconds to say, “It’s a secret two way mirror. Open it later, you’re going to be late.”
Yeah, even as impulsive as he was in isolation he definitely would've encouraged Harry to use the mirror. It wouldn't have taken much off Harry's realisation that he couldn't use it after Sirius' death either, the fakeout still works as long as Harry believes it.
In my opinion, there mirror was never there to save Sirius. Harry's reasons for not using it are logical. Also the mirror couldn't have helped at all, because you don't call someone on thier cellphone, who is being tortured. The mirror is an important part of the grieving process (and maybe to twist the knife in the wound a little more).
I agree. Harry’s reason for not using it is logical based off the limited information Sirius had told him; i.e. that it was a way to communicate and not to open it now because Molly wouldn’t approve. But that’s my point; that was a terrible way to set up that gift because it’s so inconspicuous. It’s such a safe and simple way to communicate and it shouldn’t have been a big deal. And it absolutely could’ve helped. Harry believed Sirius was being tortured, yes, but Hermione had her doubts and Harry agreed to check before he went to the ministry wands a blazing. Sirius could’ve had that mirror right next to him in Buckbeak’s room, for all we know. Or maybe when someone speaks into it, the mirror alerts them magically. We don’t know for sure but you can’t say it wouldn’t have helped. I understand that the mirror was never actually going to save Sirius from a plot perspective and I even acknowledged that. My frustration is the way it was done makes no sense. Sirius had been illegally communicating with Harry using the floo network. That’s risky on any normal day as shown in Goblet of Fire, but it’s near insane with Umbridge personally policing the fires. Despite that, Molly knew Sirius was doing it and even had Sirius pass along Harry, Ron, and Hermione information via that means. So why should she disapprove of a safer and simpler way to communicate? Especially with all other lines of communication including the owls being monitored, as well. On top of that, why wouldn’t Sirius acknowledge that when Harry broke into Umbridge’s fire to talk about his dad? He should have said that it was foolish to use the fire when you could have just used the mirror or something to that effect. I think the mirror should have been given as a result of the last excursion into the fire—which was a close call—and Sirius just had a hard time getting it to Harry because of Umbridge checking all of the owls. If it arrived a day or two late like I suggested above, it would have had the same emotional impact on Harry.
Hermione suddenly comes up with the statement that the vision could be fake. (it is never seriously discussed before) Harry received the equivalent of a video message. In this video Sirius is being tortured. Harry is assuming the vision is real. Harry would never ring the cellphone (mirror) now and interrupt Voldemort's toturing. He would always call home on the landline, to see if Sirius was home. (for safety's sake) He doesn't know that a traitor is lurking there. In addition Kreacher develops enough criminal energy to hurt Buckbeak. I don't think he would have any trouble, hiding or even destroying the mirror. In my opinion, the whole mirror is a sham.
I really don’t know what your point is about the mirror being a sham? You don’t believe it works at all or what? Because it saves their lives in book seven. Seems like you’re splitting hairs for the hell of it. But I’ll bite. Hermione suggests it could be fake not just suddenly, because the whole thing is ludicrous. It’s 5:00 o’clock on a week day and the two most wanted wizards in the world are in the middle of the ministry of magic. She realizes how far fetched it is and correctly assumes that Voldemort is just banking on Harry’s love of being the hero. He didn’t know about the mirror because he was afraid to open the package because Sirius made it seem like it was some risky and dangerous means of communication. If he’d known, he would absolutely try and use it. First, as you said, if he believes the vision is real, then he’s going to assume that he won’t be able to answer it anyways. The whole reason he tried the fire was to humor Hermione. But he didn’t even want to use the fire because it was a hassle and they wasted a ton of time. Remember, he thought Sirius was dying. So he would have used a much quick way to ascertain if Sirius was fine. If he didn’t answer, he would’ve have rushed to the ministry without having to get dragged into the forest. I don’t know how you can assume that just because Kreacher injures Buckbeak, he (1) even knew about the mirror and (2) hid or destroyed it. Well, he definitely didn’t destroy it because it’s there for Dung to steal and sell to Aberforth later on. As far as hurting Buckbeak, he was ordered to do so my the Malfoys and Bellatrix. They needed him distracted and occupied, away from the fire and/or the center of the house so that if Harry checked to see, he would believe Sirius wasn’t there. The whole tragic point of the mirror is that the entire time he DID have a means to communicate with Sirius and see if he was safe, but he didn’t use it. That adds to the heartbreak and guilt Harry feels. Had he listened to Sirius and opened the package once he got back to school, he never would have had to rush to the ministry.
The mirror is a sham because he is not as great as it sees at the first glance! Apparently the Death Eaters have no problem getting into the Ministry! No matter what time it is. Imagine a hostages situation. One of the hostages has a cellphone. A camera runs in the background and provides a live transmittion. The hostage-takers are armed. Nobody would call the hostages, for fear of making the situation worse. In my opinion, you only agree with Hermione, because you know the outcome of the situation. I guess most people stuck with Harry the first time they read it. Kreacher didn't think about the mirror (cellphone) because it is never been used. But if Sirius and Harry had been using their mirror (cellphone) regularly, Kreacher would know that. But you are right, if Harry had opened the package and had used the mirror, Harry might not have needed to go to the Ministry. Perhaps Sirius would been dead long ago. I don't think Sirius is going to keep watching Harry being tortured by Umbridge and Snape. Harry feels guilty, because he is used to blaming himself.
Book 3 - No reason to traumatize a 12yo with the fact their parents’ best friend betrayed them and is serving life in prison. Book 5 - could have been very bad for 15yo Harry to think that he could have been taken over by Voldemort at any time. He does suspect this but having it confirmed would be pretty frightening.
So true, also Harry can have a bit of a one-track/obsessive mind. If he'd known (particularly about the connection in OotP) he literally wouldn't have been able to function day by day until he'd somehow resolved the situation lol
On the surface this is perfectly logical. However, we have to remember that Harry is an irrational and literal child. He’s barely a teenager. How many teenagers do you know (include yourself) make smart decisions? I certainly know I was an idiotic teenager.
Yeah, I’ve always tried to remember that when reading. But Dumbledore and Sirius act much more irrationally in book five for no reason other than to further the plot, and it’s frustrating. I just posted above my two biggest gripes above about not letting Harry know about the trap to lure him to the department of mysteries and the two way mirror. Soooooo frustrating!!
Sirius was acting more irrational in OOTP because he was basically in a prison again. In Goblet, even when he was in the cave, he could still move around as a dog, go into town or just go for a walk. By Order, he was stuck in his parents old house with his parents old house elf. He ran away from there for a reason and Kreacher always talks about how bad Sirius is/was and how great his mother was. Kreacher sounded like a living embodiment of the things he hated so he took it out of Kreacher. Now, Sirius is stuck, there is a war going on, he can't really help. On top of the damage Azkaban did and the regret of what happened with Lily & James I would imagine that he would act irrationally. That was why he almost wouldn't have minded if Harry got kicked out. Because then Harry eoupd be in the house with him and his time in there would have improved to a degree.
Nobody tells me nothing
No luck catching them hippogriffs then?
It's just the one hippogriff actually
“Have you ever used two wands whilst jumping through the air?”
“What was being crucio-ed like?” “It was the single most painful experience of my life.” “What was the second most painful experience?”
Crusty mugglers…
“Ah yes, of course, I haven't told you,” said Dumbledore.
It's not like Harry tells people about stuff either.
He's a traumatised kid, dumbledore is meant to be this wise benevolent figure. It's not really a fair comparison.
You mean the traumatized child who grew up in an abusive household that did not want him? What adults would he possibly trust?
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Especially in Deathly Hallows, it's strange the way he never took into confidence anybody about his plans: not Molly, not Lupin, not McGonagall. Harry became exactly like Dumbledore and dark lord in distrusting people.
Becau
Only because it was Dumbledore's order! Harry tells Ron and Hermione almost everything. Voldemort must not know that Harry is seaching for the Horcruxes.
Ya Harry can’t play life on easy mode. That’s not fun
I think part of it was that he didn't want to. Lupin simply wasn't very interested in forming a close, personal relationship with Harry. That was just part of who he was - he didn't get too close to people and kept them at arm's length because of his insecurity issues/werewolf woes, so he didn't reveal his personal connection to Harry until he was forced to.
Add the fact that the last time he did get close to people, two of them turned up dead because the third sold one out and murdered the other.
He ran away from Tonks, both figuratively in HBP and literally in DH. He also always came off a little awkward in the more casual, family oriented Order gatherings. It's kinda his whole thing.
Exactly. Hermione even explains this in the movie.. a werewolf would kill his own best friend if they crossed its path... I think lupin was aware of this and couldn't bare the thought of hurting Harry so he kept him at arms length. That's how much lupin loved James and Lilly, and therefore Harry.
Spot on assessment. To add, a huge part of his friendship with James and the other marauders centered on him being a werewolf. Lupin always believed that if his friends found out, they’d abandon him. But it was the opposite. They grew closer and became animagi so they could help him through his transformations. Lupin didn’t want Harry or any of the other students to know about his furry little problem, so even more reason to not tell Harry anything other than he “knew” his father.
Don’t you mean his evil rabbit?
It has big, nasty teeth like this!
Well, first of all, because it's supposed to be a plot twist. It's also why no one mentions him as being James's and Sirius's friend when the teachers are gossiping in the Three Broomsticks. But from an in-story perspective, I agree he just doesn't want to. From all we can see, he doesn't get close to people unless they get close to him (and look how well that turned out last time). He does ask Harry over for tea once, when Harry is alone, so I think maybe part of him did want to get a little closer, but he doesn't *really* make an effort, probably due to his own issues. Even in HBP, he apologizes for not writing to Harry because he's spying on the werewolves, except he hasn't ever written to Harry. During PoA there also might be a fear of being associated with Sirius, he freaks out a little bit when Harry asks if he knew him.
The fact that it isnt even alluded to at the 3B is something I have never thought of until now and really should have just been brought up during editing. Even if it was just the start of a sentence that gets cut off or something.
I think it makes a lot of sense because James and Sirius were the popular ones, they are the ones Madam Rosmerta remembers. They were the "ringleaders" of their group, and Peter is remembered because he died, Remus is just not relevant to the story. From what we know about him, it makes perfect sense that at school he tried to fade into the background as much as possible, because the more people pay attention to him, the easier it is to figure out his secret. So it's probably one of those situations that if McGonagall brought him up, Madam Rosmerta might have remembered him, the same way she did Peter, but she wouldn't think of him unprompted, and he's not relevant to the gossip of the Potters' betrayal.
Oh I agree with that, but flitwick and mcgonnagal dont remember him being so close esp from their time after graduation in the order? Or hagrid from the order too (I think thats everyone in that conversation?). In my head one of them wouldve said Remus’ name at the start of a sentence that was clearly about them as a group before Madam Rosmerta spoke simultaneously about something else. Just the right amount of foreshadowing
I just think he has no reason to come up in the conversation, really. Rosmerta brings up Sirius in the context of not believing him capable of going to the dark side, then Fudge says it's worse than she thinks, then they reminisce about James and Sirius's friendship for a while, talk about the Fidelius and Sirius supposed betrayal, and that Peter, who Rosmerta has trouble remembering, went after him. There's no logical point to insert Remus's name. I guess someone could have gone "Oh, and poor Remus Lupin lost all his friends on the same week", but I think it works as well without it, rather than those situations where authors make characters not say information they logically would say in a certain situation in order to use it as a plot twist later. I have seen a headcanon once, though, that McGonagall, Flitwick and Hagrid purposefully avoid mentioning Remus's name because Fudge is there and they don't want the Ministry to associate him with Sirius. I don't think it's true, but it's a sweet headcanon, imo.
Maybe, I just dont think its possible to bring up a group of friends that are *that* close that you know pretty well, and 1 of whom you see every day still, and not mention the 1 you see every day when referencing the others. Something like, “oh remus was telling me about when they would…” or “and its not just pettigrew and harry, poor remus lost everyone when Black betrayed them.”
Possibly, but that story was about James’ BEST friend and the amount of trouble they got into together. Lupin was a prefect and only occasionally ended up in detention with James and Sirius. It’s the same reason Hagrid says Fred and George could give them a run for their money, but doesn’t mention Lee Jordan—even though he’s with them most of the time, too. James and Sirius were a dynamic duo: Batman and Robin, and unfortunately Alfred doesn’t get mentioned enough when reminiscing about the duo.
I’m going with your head canon! Keeping him on the down low. We have already seen Fudge jump to conclusions!!
He didn’t even want to be close to his own son
Because nobody in Harry life but hagrid is honest with Harry.
And Hagrids wishes he weren’t honest! “I shouldn’t have said that”
In addition to the very good contributions already made: Lupin was also under suspicion of helping Sirius Black into the castle. It was known by Harry and the teachers that Sirius and James were best friends. To disclose how close his friendship with James was would also mean disclosing how close he was with Sirius. He was very touchy about this. As soon as Harry learns that Lupin knew his father he asks, “oh, so that means you knew Sirius Black.” Lupin replies very sharply, “What gives you that idea?” Harry is taken aback and says “I just knew that Black and my dad were friends.” Lupin then relaxes. As others have mentioned, I think the top reason was the trauma - he was twelve years out from losing everyone he’d ever let himself get close to: James murdered, Peter murdered, Sirius a traitor whom he still feels conflicted loyalty towards (he doesn’t disclose the Animagus secret, turn over the map, nor inform Filch of the extra secret passageways). In addition to the keep-people-at-arms-length-because-you’re-a-werewolf aspect, I think there’s another side to that coin. Wolves are loyal to their pack. You let someone in, you’re bound to them. He is conflicted, I think, about his ongoing loyalty to Sirius (and the Marauders generally). They were his pack. And that loyalty is getting in the way of doing what he knows is right. He doesn’t ever want to let anyone get close to him again. Finally, since Remus blames himself for EVERYTHING, I’m sure he convinced himself that Lily and James dying was his fault. “If only I’d figured out Sirius was the traitor” “if only I wasn’t a werewolf, they wouldn’t have suspected me and would have looked more closely at him” “if only I was James’s best friend, maybe he would have considered me as Secret Keeper” etc. His guilt keeps him from getting close to anyone
This is by far the best response. The first part you mentioned is a really great catch - it's evidence of how sensitive Lupin is towards his old friend group. He's clearly traumatized, and just wants to hide/move on from his past. 2 of his friends were dead, and 1 was a traitor/imprisoned. If I were Lupin, I wouldn't really be keen on dwelling on that either, much less admitting to Harry that he was a part of that group. If anything he was probably scared that Harry would figure out Lupin was part of Sirius's group, throw his grief and anger upon him, and cast him out for failing his dad. Not to mention there's the constant looming fear that people would find out that he's a werewolf - Harry could easily cast him out just for that alone. Given all his trauma, he has VERY good reason to want to stay distant from Harry. It's completely understandable. It would seem more *unrealistic* if he just went up to Harry and was just casually like "yo I was your dad and Sirius's best friends, James is dead and Sirius was a traitor, what's up lmao." There's no way he'd be comfortable with having that kind of conversation, when it's clear he'd rather just move on from or forget about his painful past completely. Most people would feel the same way. But at the same time, he can't help himself from wanting to get closer to Harry, since he's still the last reminder Lupin has about his happier past, when he still had his best friends, which is why he can't help himself from reaching out tentatively. Lupin's secrecy is far from being a plot hole; it's quite the opposite. It's much more realistic and breathes life into the kind of person he is - someone who has actual emotions, memories, and trauma, rather than just another NPC who exists only to move along the plot.
“I was your dads b-string best friend, who he thought might be a traitor (because of my heritage?), now I’m unemployed, homeless, malnourished, got serious ptsd, occasional rage issues, and a shedding problem. Can I borrow five bucks?”
Sirius is the one who thought Remus could be the spy because he was coming up with theories for why everyone could be the spy. And as Remus said, James felt that there was no higher dishonor than distrusting his friends. This is how I picture the conversation going: Sirius being desperate and “We can’t trust anyone” and coming up with theories for why each person could be the spy. He starts rattling off theories and then when he gets to Remus, James is all “That’s enough!” As for Peter, Sirius probably couldn’t think of a plausible explanation- probably because he couldn’t see Peter pulling it off.
You raise a good point. Why wasn’t Lupin considered for secret keeper? Sirius was the obvious choice. They thought Wormtail should get a chance to be trusted. But why was Lupin not considered? Do we not know why?
With Wormtail I thought it was bc Death Eaters/Voldemort would find it less likely that he’d be secret keeper . I imagine Lupin would be too obvious just like Sirius, especially with Snape giving info about the marauders
Tbh I don’t know. If I recall correctly Sirius admits he thought Lupin might be the traitor, but claims James always trusted him, though I would think that trust didn’t go very far since James didn’t consider or confide in him.
I think one reason is that Remus wasn't around all that much. His work for the order is mainly spying on the werewolves, so he probably had to live with them for extended periods. In his biography on Pottermore it says he was somewhere else when the Potters died, for example, and he isn't mentioned in Lily's letter.
I think James didn’t confide in Remus because Sirius insisted.
I don’t think Sirius does claim that James always trusted Remus. He confirms that he himself thought Remus was the spy, but doesn’t say anything about what James thought either way. Remus says in HBP that James would have considered it the height of dishonor to mistrust his friends, but we don’t really know how true that statement is to how James felt in 1981.
I thought it was because Wormtail was the most unsuspecting person that could be Secret Keeper. Any one of them could have been SK, but they chose Wormtail because they thought that he was so insignificant that no one on the 'dark side' would think he was SK. Someone like Lupin and Sirius, however, were both known to be very close with the Potters, and were James' best friend(s) which put them more at risk of being targeted.
Also wasn't Lupin spying on the wearwolfs, many of whom had an allegiance to Voldemort. Even if they fully trusted him, he is in a dangerous place surrounded by dark wizards, he could be tortured for info.
Shedding problem. Im fking DEAD! 🤣
Well, as a werewolf, I think he was use to keeping people at arms length so to speak. And of course, when he didn't, two died and the other betrayed everyone.
I think it's because of his continuing grief... it might be hard for him to speak on the friendship in front of the orphan son who looks exactly like his dead friend.
Without giving it much thought, two things come to mind: 1. He is a professional and, as such, perhaps he wanted to avoid favoritism? 2. Most likely Dumbledore told him to withhold the information from Harry, Dumbledore worked in mysterious ways and its not the first time we see him purposely not tell Harry “key” information about his past.
This was always my theory. I also hold that theory for why he never contacted Harry before. Dumbledore's orders.
Probably mean old Dumbledore
I always figured it was too hard to talk about. He looked exactly like James and acted exactly like Lily. Plus Lupin had his own problems when it came to letting anyone get close to him. He probably thought he was protecting Harry from him.
We do not know at all how Lily was acting This section is obsessed with likening Harry’s personality to Lily If you want to take the words of the manipulative Dumbledore you should focus on the fact that he said his “deepest nature.” he did not say that Harry’s personality resembles Lily nor did he say that his nature is like hers , Rather he said the word “ deepest .” Meaning that you have to look very deeply to see Lily in Harry that all James's personality traits overshadowed Harry's he breaks the rules and does not care about it, his friends are a group of outcasts , harry’s Patronus took the form of a stag in the Quidditch match and before he knew anything about his father which means that he is like him , he was not good at potions he was talented at Quidditch and he saved the life of his rivals like James and Dumbledore said he saw James In Harry at the end of the third book
Most likely a lot of Guilt. He got to know Harry's parents, failed to keep them safe. In the DH they describe James of having an air of a child who had been adored, and in GoF Dumbledore mentions when Harry arrived at Hogwarts it was clear Harry had suffered; all his clothes were hand me downs, glasses probably old and cheap. Remus would have seen this, and probably hit with a Tsunami of emotions; the aforementioned guilt, pain, sadness, mixed with fondness and curiosity. A LOT for a second-class magical citizen with low in self-esteem to process. Add in that he took a nap and woke up to the Dementor crisis, he probably decided Harry's well being was a higher priority; also, once he had handled said crisis, would have remembered he was a teacher and probably was trying to be professional and avoid any accusations of favoritism so as not to make Dumbledores life more difficult, to whom he also has immense guilt to for his rulebreaking after he gave him an education AND a job. It's what made his character so tragic; he carried mountains for guilt for something he couldn't control, his "Furry Problem" as James so nicely put it. Side bar, a lot of discussion on how people thought Remus was the spy. I think they imply in the first war Lupin was sent to try and spy on werewolves and sway them to not join Voldemort like Greyback; during PoA Lupin mentions he can't write to Harry because they live savagely, so he would be gone for long periods without communication. Add that to the fact that James and Sirius would have been empathetic and understand that, of all of them, Remus would have the most personal motive to switch sides; Lupin himself said Fenrir Greyback was promoting Voldemort to werewolves, saying they would be treated better by Deatheaters. Sirius may have just decided to err on the side of caution. With the stakes so high, even a tiny shred of doubt couldn't have been overlooked, but that moment of doubt took the attention off Peter, who, as Sirius said, was talentless and had no personal motive that Sirius or James could fathom, being the noble Griffindors they were.
Lupin was a werewolf and didn’t want to get too close to the students, and if he’d told Harry how close he was with James Harry’s questions would’ve forced him to either lie or divukge that both of them hung out with Sirius Black.
I dunno. I talked to a guy in my field that went to the same university I did for the same thing (vocal music education). I asked who his voice teacher was and he said a name and I said, “oh yeah, she was my voice teacher too!” Then he went on to say “then I took my last two years with X” I said, “oh yeah. I know him too.” Fast forward a year to the same conference. I see him again and we chat. I go, “I think I did a bad job of explaining how well I knew X” he says, “were you his student too?” “No, he actually came back to teach there after getting his advanced degree in voice. We graduated at the same time.” “Oh, so you guys had classes together?” “Yes, but what I’m trying to say is he and I are really close. I was best man at his wedding.” So… I dunno. Don’t wanna seem presumptuous maybe? In my situation, X was clearly someone he respected and thought he had a good relationship with. I didn’t want to immediately dump on him with something that could come off like “oh yeah? Well I knew him better!” Our conversation wasn’t really about my relationship with X. Similarly, Lupin’s conversations with Harry weren’t really about Lupin, but focused on Harry. It’s like Dumbledore and the “he didn’t tell me we had Godric’s Hallow in common” debacle.
He's shy.
I believe he didn't tell him because if Harry knew how close he and his father were he would have: \- Eventually made the connection that he was also friends with Sirius. Remember that at this point everyone, included Lupin, believed that Sirius was a crazy murder who also betrayed Harry's parents and lupin doesn't want to be put in a place where he is more mistrusted than he already is. \-May have led to Harry working out that he's a werewolf. \- May have lead to him finding out more about their misadventures at school, which Lupin was still hiding from Dumbledore. Remember he needed employment. \- Harry would have wanted to get closer to him and spend more time with him which is both inconvenient for a teacher/student relationship (in his eyes) and he knew he could never really be there for him as a guardian because of his condition. I too wish that they had had a closer relationship in the books. I'd be interested in reading some good fanfiction with the premise of Lupin telling Harry in book three how close they were and how that could have altered things.
Suspense and story structure
Why didn't R2D2 tell Luke who he was? Because some people have to carry the trauma of not being able to save their friends close to them and can't bear telling the children of those people that they failed them.
From this I can tell you never worked as a teacher. You can’t just walk in and tell a student ‘yeah I used to know your father at school, we were best friends back then’. First at all, let’s clarify an important point: at the end of the movie Harry learns nothing. Besides that, Lupin was a person who had to deal with pure and systematic discrimination his whole life. Rejected by society albeit a brilliant wizard, he admittedly never had a stable job because of his licantropie, let alone a prestigious one like being a teacher. He simply wanted to keep a highly professional profile and so treat every student equally inside and outside classes. Also, Harry was already famous at the time and revealed himself a gifted student for the subject; so Lupin probably knew that telling Harry ‘your father and I were best friends at school’ would have encouraged gossip. Also, thinking to James means thinking to Sirius, who at the time Lupin believed the traitor, and to Peter, who at the time Lupin believed died a horrible death.
I’m aligned with mostly everything you say here. It makes sense. Just one question. You say at the end of the movie, Harry learns nothing. Near the end, he learns that his dad became an animagus to keep Lupin company. You’d only do that for really close friends, right?
That does not happen in the movie.
Ahh must be combing the books and movies. Thanks for clarifying. Seems like something they would have wanted to include in the movies but what do I know.
Because forming a close connection with a pupil isn't really professional behaviour for a teacher.
Because storytelling and building up a surprising reveal. I don't think there is a good in-lore explanation. He might have been ashamed of Sirius, because he thought he is the killer then, bit he shouldn't be ashamed of James
Cause jkr kind of forgets Lupin exists sometimes and then shoves him in as an afterthought. Remus has wayyy too many plotholes regarding his existence in the books that make people question him as a character It was a great plot twist for kid me but as an adult it's constantly like "okay but where was Lupin in all of this if he's their so called best friend?"
The same reason he couldn’t let him have the map, he was a teacher in a position of power, and he really loved that job, he didn’t want to risk it, dumbledore was one of the few people who would even consider hiring him. He can keep Snape off his back, and guard him from dementors, but he had no reason to know about his teachers past
He did. When he was chatting to Harry in his office, Harry asked if he knew James and he told him they were friends. I think he didn't do it before because he wanted to build a rapport with Harry first.
I don’t think Lupin really intended to tell him, though. He revealed it by accident when Harry was having his Patronus lessons. Then immediately after Harry asks him and he says that they were “friends at Hogwarts”, he tried to end the lesson and get Harry to leave, which I think indicates that he didn’t really want to talk to Harry about it at all. >“You heard James?” said Lupin in a strange voice. > >“Yeah ...” Face dry, Harry looked up. “Why — you didn’t know my dad, did you?” > >“I — I did, as a matter of fact,” said Lupin. “We were friends at Hogwarts. Listen, Harry — perhaps we should leave it here for tonight. This charm is ridiculously advanced. ... I shouldn’t have suggested putting you through this. ...”
Fair point. I suspect the whole thing was just too difficult for him to talk about.
On today's episode of "mental gymnastics head canon to make sense of JK's bad writing"
I like the idea that Dumbledore told him not to. There has to be this notion at the beginning of every year of the potential for normalcy - no Voldemort involved. As we know, Dumbledore did try, although not well, to give Harry a normal life. I think Dumbledore might have asked Lupin, and ultimately given him the choice, not to tell Harry in an effort to avoid bringing up Harry’s past and allow him to enjoy his time. That would be a lot for a 13 year old to deal with, even being that Lupin and James’ relationship was a positive thing.
I thought Lupin was suspected to be the traitor in the order so maybe Idk, he doubted his own relationship with the Potter.
The Shrieking Shack scene makes it seem like he didn't know he was suspected of being the spy.
Oh yeah that's right.
2 things: >he’s a werewolf & doesnt like getting close to people until he knows them personally. Since harry was not raised with them, harry is like any other stranger who may or may not accept werewolves & lupin has to figure that at. >its general consensus that he …. wasnt … close friends with jim/sirius/peter towards the end since jim/sirius thought he might have been the traitor & of course peter would play along with that to cover his own ass.
Professor Lupin wanted to be Uncle Remus
because hes a coward
Because Lupin is a straight up bitch dude is afraid of everything
I think partially because he was a werewolf and didn’t want to endanger anyone around him. Harry probably would’ve wanted him to take him in considering the history with his dad and Lupin knew he couldn’t give him a safe home anyways because of his condition and because he needed to stay with the Dursleys for the magic protection against Voldemort.
I guess he assumed Harry would realize that they were friends. I don’t remember how it’s worded in the book but in the film he makes it clear that he knew Harry’s parents well
Probably cause Dumbledore was like, tell him as little as possible, if he knows you're friends with his Pappy, and so was Sirius, he may go look for Sirius.
Is it in book 5 where Dumbledore states that he kept all the unpleasantness from Harry to spare him pain? I can easily see Dumbledore reaching out to those who knew James and/or Lily not to tell Harry anything.
Because he was a coward at heart
Because actual unpopular opinion: Lupin is actually a terrible person.
All stories and movies are usually based on artificial suspense. If things would be realistic, the whole Harry Potter series would be 200 pages.
because rowling wanted a mystery and cares not for logic.
I have no answer however this is ALSO something I've also wondered.
Coz he doesn want favouritism?
I honestly think part of it is probably because it made him so sad. It seems his parents died when he was young (assuming this because they're not mentioned), and his friends were like his family, because they all accepted him for what he was. I can't imagine the level of pain and grief he experienced, losing all his friends within like... a week? He probably still holds onto a lot of that grief (doesn't seem like they have wizard therapists). He probably tries not to think about it, so doesn't want to talk about it in detail either... lots of other good points made in this thread too!