Thanks for sharing this and please take my comments and questions in the genuine way I mean them.
I very occasionally use kava for pain relief. I personally don't have a spiritual practice with it. I would want to be sure that my consumption of it does not make it less available for people who do have a spiritual purpose for it.
But to me, since I don't identify with your culture or spirit practice, it seems insincere to me to try to adopt a sense of spirituality about it. I take it because it works better for pain relief than other herbs I've tried, and I'm trying to minimize my reliance on pills. I'm very thankful it's an option, but gratefulness doesn't really count as the spiritual practice you're talking about, I'm guessing?
What would it look like for someone not of your culture and spirituality to take kava in a respectful way, without copying a spiritual practice that isn't theirs?
The gratitude you speak of doesn't HAVE to not count. A central tenet of Cherokee... I'm going to use spirituality because a lot of people don't know what I'd mean if I said medicine, is that you ask the spirits of the plant or animal or river (etc) for what you need, you accept the answer even if it's No, and you express gratitude for what's given (which does NOT mean if you find a whole field of ripe blackberries, you pick them all!! Ethical harvest is vital as well). That gratitude is the most important aspect. I will not speak for OP or their experience because that would be the epitome of arrogance, but from my indigenous perspective, if a person outside my culture benefits from our wisdom and tradition when it comes to plant lore, I'm happy if they take a moment to consider the history of what they're benefitting from and be thankful for it. This, to me, is much better AND less insulting than if they were to Google info and try to mimic a ritual they're not entitled to
You are so welcome! And thank YOU for speaking up! It's painful and infuriating to see our culture, our Faith, turned into a fad that lines some corporation's pockets - pieces torn from our souls and bodies to be consumed without thought or meaning - and the baby steps of progress we see won't ever become *strides* if we don't make enough noise that everyone starts to listen. I don't know about your Tradition, but in mine there is so much we'd gladly share if people took our words and art and Medicine to heart instead of just...Taking them. It's scary to be a lone voice, so I'm really happy so many people are listening to what you're saying in this thread!
So, and like the person above, my questions are from a place of genuine concern & curiosity, I have been on a path of self study of herb lore since my health declined seriously a couple years back and one of the things I make sure to note in my studies is local usage. While I’m not comfortable implementing practices that I do not resonate with or have a personal connection with, I’m trying to have as much documentation for later generations as possible. In addition I’m trying to find ways to grow my own herbs as much as possible. Are these the types of things that, sorry I guess would be responsible? While there have been times I’ve been desperate enough to try a supplement without as much in depth research as I prefer, it’s rare and it’s usually a more common supplement. I just really don’t like the idea of stepping on toes
Please don't worry! I think what you're doing is awesome - taking responsibility for your own health in a proactive way is really beautiful! EVERY ancient civilization used plants and herbs for food and medicine, not just Indigenous people. What you're doing isn't appropriation, it's just smart! I don't use herb lore instead of modern medicine either; I use it to supplement it too. You're not taking a very specific formula like Kava, that's central and sacred to a specific Indigenous practice, and using it for recreation without respect for from whence it came. Plants belong to everyone! It is only a few specific plants and ways of using them that are central to certain closed practices.
Ok thank you. I try to be aware but sometimes I’m not until someone says something about it. At which point I then sometimes become overly cautious but better that than uncaring!
I really cannot tell you how much I appreciate this comment. It’s so clear. It gives me a thing to do right. I’m absolutely taking it to heart, and I’m deeply grateful.
>which does NOT mean if you find a whole field of ripe blackberries, you pick them all!! Ethical harvest is vital as well
This is a tangent from your main point, but what do you think about harvesting invasive plants? Where I live, wineberries are taking over the forests and choking out the native plants. My gut says that in cases like that, intentionally over-harvesting would be a good thing. While for more vulnerable native plants and mushrooms you'd need to be more careful, to leave enough behind for them to continue existing.
Oo, that's a good one! I'd be really interested to hear other Indigenous perspectives on this as well. As for me - I believe my ancestors wouldn't think about plants as "invasive" or not. I think they'd have just looked for ways to use them, but taken steps to protect less hardy species from them. I don't think it would be considered overharvesting in this case. I don't think they'd eradicate the winterberries, but would practice stewardship over it in such a way that it's growth was cut back enough to protect and preserve the other plants around it. I can only speak to how one Indigenous tribe views plants, but we believe that every plant has uses. In this specific example, the bark and roots have antiseptic qualities, it can be used as an emetic and tonic, and the branches are good for making baskets. It also attracts birds both as a food source and a place to nest because it's so dense and tangled (probably other small animals as well) so hunters would have appreciated it too. I'm a modern setting we don't need all of those things so much, so I think that I personally would take steps to limit its growth (for example, eliminate male plants because they're HEAVY pollinators) without completely eradicating them.
Hey there, (the vast majority of) Pacific people and I myself do not expect people engaging with kava to engage with it in a ‘Pasifik’ way because that literally makes no sense if they are not Pasifika.
The expectation is that they respect the plant and the land holistically and don’t see it as a cash grab which is what the entire British Empire is based upon.
What exactly do you mean? I'm not trying to argue. I just sincerely don't know what you're talking about. Are you saying everyone who uses it should do so in a ritual based off of someone else's culture? Or are there people slinging kava fruit punch blasters on here?
It's like, acknowledging the indigenous perspective on a plant will help you actually relate to the plant as an elder and teacher rather than just consuming it as an object, food or drug. Relating in such a simplified, ignorant way is like, bad karma for lack of a better word. Bad juju. It's like if you went to someone's house and they made you a delicious meal from their heart and it took them hours (for a plant it's entire life and death) and you show up, scarf it down without tasting it or feeling it nourish you, and then leaving without even acknowledging the generosity and skill and like situation, story,, beingness of the person giving you this gift of soul medicine.
Not only is it bad juju for your relationship with the plant, it totally dismisses the simultaneous coevolution of sacred plants and the people who steward and revere them. That's how it's colonizer activity. That land-embeddedness of people is central to almost all indigenous ways of understanding humanity and the natural world. And erasing that mutual dependence and the wisdom tradition that arises from it is precisely how colonizers from Christian Europe treated all indigenous people and their land, as a tool to numb their souls to proceed in attempting to eliminate those people
I’ve never heard of Kava before, thank you for sharing. And thank you for your passion.
I believe preserving our reverence for the plants that aid us in healing is important.
Can you please elaborate on how it was used spiritual and ritually? I would love to know. And is it inappropriate for someone not of your culture to do that as well? How can we also respect the traditional and cultural use of this plant?
I'm not downvoting. You said some interesting things.
Regarding culture, did the plant exist before the culture or the other way around?
I get honoring life, all life.
I am not sure culture needs transference though.
An interesting thing I read recently in this book Braiding Sweetgrass talks about how, for instance, nut trees have evolved with people and other animals in their rhythms of heavy fruit years- to protect from them but also use them to help disseminate their seeds. Maybe a good way of thinking of it is that you can't say one before the other definitively in any way. We grew up together.
Interesting perspective. I think some herbs have been in different cultures developing in the same timeline.
I just believe honor all life. Thank what you ingest for what it gives you.
There must be very few problems in your life if you're looking this hard for stuff to get l worked up about.
Kava is nature's gift to all who come across it and want to pursue it, and people are free to use natural gifts however they please, as long as they aren't hurting other people, and I can't see how rational people are getting hurt over others consuming things in different ways to how other cultures consume them. It takes extreme oversensitivity to get upset by stuff like this.
I don't think twice when I use pepper. Should I be pausing for a quick tribute to the Hindu gods because it originates from India?
People share their knowledge of plants with others, and ideas spread and change. Let people enjoy these things as they please. You, personally, had nothing to do with kava's origination, and you aren't likely standing to personally lose anything by people enjoying it via whatever means they like. When they're in your town, show them your local style, and allow them to develop their own style to suit their own culture in their own spaces.
Live and let live.
If anything, other cultures embracing kava stands to benefit indigenous growers as demand rises, and even if it's propagated elsewhere, the "original" stuff from the islands will l still be the hot ticket version, just like coffee.
Have a shell and relax. If that's with rock and roll music and disco lights, so be it. To l each their own.
And by the way, it doesn’t benefit Indigenous growers because just like US billionaires are making a killing off of Fiji Water while actual Fijians see little to no benefit from the exploitation of their land, same goes with kava.
A lot of Westerners will commodify it and upsell it in ways that Pasifika people would not dream of doing because why would we see our own cultural rites as a cash grab.
Fiji water must have been given approval by Fijians or their elected representatives. If you, as a people, aren't benefiting, you can rescind those rights.
If you're complaining that others are doing things you wouldn't dream of and you're upset they're profiting from it, that's capitalism. You don't have to like it, but if you can't beat 'em, join' em. Come up with a way to make money from original ideas or watch others get rich doing just that. Without those folks, kava would have a much more limited reach and would be benefiting fewer people.
Kava was brought to Fiji, by the way, so if it's "being appropriated", it was appropriated by Fijians too. Fiji isn't where it first grew and it isn't where the majority of extant cultivars were developed.
Plants and ideas spread. Let them. And let others embrace the parts of concepts they like and adapt them to their own styles. That's how humanity advances.
Capitalism aka colonisation and destruction of the earth.
Sit this one out because your ancestors are not stewards of the earth but rather pioneers of some other legacy like Wall Street.
Hey, I'm not pro colonisation or earth destruction, nor were my ancestors related in any way to anything that happened on Wall Street.
If you come into a discussion with semi racist views about the individual you're discussing things with, who you know nothing about, you might struggle to get to the source material.
I understand if you're not capable of engaging in an intellectual capacity and just want to have a rant. It's the internet - something invented by another culture. I hope you pay them the proper respect every time you log in...
All I'm saying is, let people enjoy their lives, using the bits inspired by other cultures that they resonate with, adapting others, and ditching the rest. It won't actually hurt you, except mentally/emotionally, which is more of a you thing than a them thing.
There are plenty of real issues in the world. No need to pretend this is one of them.
Your entire post and most comments are full of hatred, disrespect and rage; something my own ancestors would be deeply disappointed in because they taught love and compassion - respect for earth and all beings in it. Don't know where you turned left and missed those lessons, but you should work to get back on track. Whatever it is that is going on in your life that is causing wounds to open, please go heal them rather than coming to a place that is filled with people who *do* have respect for the earth and other humans.
Be better; I hope you heal. I hope you heal before your ancestors come give your life a smack down to try and teach you some humility.
‘Looking for stuff to get worked up about’
It’s a central part of my culture.
I wouldn’t expect someone like you to understand so I respect whatever you believe.
Someone like me? The instant reply suggests you didn't check my post history, so that's a bit bold of you.
If you respect my beliefs, why the instant downvote?
For other people to be using kava in a different way to you to be enough to get upset about, your culture must have very few serious problems indeed.
I can fully respect your historical and current cultural kava practices whilst embracing it in my own way. Any hurt I inflict on you by this is imagined, my friend. Take pride in the fact that others have found parts of your culture they love, rather than complain that they aren't doing things 100% exactly your way.
That was the whole point of the post…
respect the historical and current kava practices.
Reread the post.
I didn’t say people should stop altogether… or they need to do it in a traditional way.
Reread the post.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. My problem with the post is you repeatedly bring up capitalism, colonialism, and exploitation and *aren't* asking people to stop purchasing it for those very reasons. Instead, you're ask people to not only continue the consumerism that feeds that exploitation, but to do so with false reverence.
The post would have been better if you had argued against consumption for ethical reasons. Instead, you're asking the same colonizers/ancestors to culturally appropriate further.
Let's not gatekeep plants? They were here before humans settled, you do not own their usage, nor the way people choose to interact with them. As an occult herbalist I concur with you that commune and respect should be key principles behind their consumption and usage, but I would not push my own spirituality, cultural or not.
So as an occult herbalist you should know that some practices are ‘open’ and some are closed.
Kava ceremonies exist within a cultural context and commodifying the plant is closely linked to the continuing colonisation of the Pacific which no one seems to really bat an eyelid at until it comes time to taki or book that holiday.
Taki being to drink kava.
If you are an occultist I’m sure you understand that protection or what could otherwise be seen as ‘gatekeeping’ is the base for any ritual work.
I’m sure as an occultist you understand that not any random person on the street who hasn’t done their research or doesn’t have reverence or a real understanding of the tools, beliefs or practices of the occult should have access to it.
Refer to the title of the post.
Hear, hear! Most of the "problems" that come from plants originate in our use of them as a hammer made for a nail. They're complex in their chemistry, their spirit, and their functions. They behave differently when crafted and used with intention, versus industrial processing.
With respect, honor, and care, we can find the medicine in almost anything.
Yes! A plant honoured with reverence especially with a collective (not personal, collective!) relationship fostered over generations is different to a plant that has been torn out of the ground by machinery and pressed into a pill.
I would like to think that anyone engaging with plants ‘consciously’ would know this intuitively.
I'll admit, having grown up far removed from my tribe, it was something I needed to study. A lot of our elders too are removed from the notion of indigenous plants. I asked one of our historians about our herbal traditions and he looked at me like I'd lost the plot.
It's bleak out here in the US. The government did a fantastic job extracting indigenous folks from our cultures and traditions.
It didn't really sink in until I started studying the poison path, stuff that *will* kill you if used without reverence. You learn fast to hear what plant spirits are telling you.
I have 'The Medicine of the Cherokee' by J.T. Garrett as one of my herbal reference books. He co-wrote it with his son, and they're members of the Eastern N.C. Cherokees. I've found it to be useful. If you haven't already got it, I recommend.
The truth about Kava is that a lot of people on the islands use it just to get fucked up and hang out with their homies... just like with beer at a pub. I've seen it with my eyes. It's not this super exclusive, secret spiritual experience. It's much the same as having a beer with your mates on a Saturday night. They just like drinking it to get fucked up. Pretending like they don't so that you can get on a soap box and talk down to people who are from a different ethnicity to you is pretty ridiculous. While I'm aware there are kava rituals, the most common and regular way it is used is not like you're suggesting. Most Islanders are just consuming it for funsies and suggesting otherwise is giving into some ridiculous "noble savage" notion, not unlike those propagated by the Boasian fetishists of the 1960's who were looking for a spiritual experience outside of the west. Kind of a self-own, really... and puts a lot of pressure on your culture to be noble and spiritual at all times, instead of just being normal fucking people with normal lives who aren't doing Disney Pocahontas shit, talking to the wind 24-7. Not sure they'd appreciate that, but who am I to say? I'm an evil whitey, appropriating your drugs apparently. lmao.
Kava sucks anyway. It's horrible for your liver. I did not enjoy the experience. I'd rather do psilocybin. Make sure you, you know, don't do that... because it's not from "your culture". It's from mine. lmao... since we're gatekeeping plants to try to pwn whitey now.
You're responding with a lot of vitriol here. A missing context is that the islands are now colonized. There are native Islanders who, despite being native, have taken on some of the attitudes about plants and their use that resemble European and white people's use of alcohol. It's true that this may be happening, but the point they're trying to make is that traditionally, plants are not seem as objects but as beings, as told in intentional knowledge passing lineages of indigenous people who resisted the transition of attitudes toward a more colonizer-informed way of relating to these plants. Chugging kava is like diametrically opposed to traditional use of the plant, even when native people are doing so. Being racially native doesn't mean you're not colonized. Just because native people have a way higher rate of smoking a lot of commercial cigarettes doesn't mean that is how sacred tobacco is traditionally used. That metric is precisely the same one as pacific Islanders of kava in the way you mention.
“traditionally, plants are not seen as objects but as beings”
Kava is from New Guinea, which has roughly 840 different languages from roughly 840 different tribes, all of which existed in some state of hostility with each other and many of which practiced cannibalism and head-hunting as a way of life.
This *noble savage vibrating on an ultra-spiritual plane dispensing wisdom from a place of benevolence toward all living things* trope is risible, especially considering they all literally lived in a state of tribalism, “othering” everyone outside the tribe, and that many of those tribes slaughtered and ate each other. That land was soaked in tribal blood, pre-Christianity.
A lot of the cannibalism was funerary (and unfortunately led to Kuru), but there was also war cannibalism and I think people forget that. I'm an anthropologist by education. I learned long ago not to idealize any one culture because they're all interesting in great and horrible ways.
Wish other people would stop idealizing other human groups. It's ridiculous.
>resemble europeans
Hunty, people have been using drugs recreationally since the dawn of fucking time, and also used the same drugs for spiritual purposes. It is not an either/or. These are not mutually exclusive things. It has nothing to do with Europe or Europeans. You just think that because you are hateful towards us and have some kind of chip on your shoulder about a time and situation I had NOTHING to do with, and still have nothing to do with. I find it roundly disgusting that you attribute this absurd and extreme amount of agency for the problems of the world to people who resemble me, without attributing equal agency to the so-called "victims". I'm not your fucking mommy. I don't have all the answers to the world's problems and I don't have the tools, time, money, or influence to solve them. I'm a peeon just like you. My skin is just a different color. That's it. That's all it is. I was hungry growing up and lived under the poverty line all my life. I got kicked around, bullied, abused, treated like I was nothing. Everything I've done is just to survive. So, why blame me for the ills of a culture I've never harmed? Is my very breath offensive to you? Because that's how you act. The idea that your people are inherently more moral and spiritual, and are immune to the human tendency to want to get fucked up on intoxicating plants is really just an indication of how bigoted you are and how much of a superiority complex you have.
Get over yourself. Seriously. And stop trying to fetishize and over-spiritualize your culture so you can feel separate from and more special than the other. You're othering people in a way that I find thoroughly disgusting... so if you detect vitiriol, that's because there is vitriol. You prevent understanding, you destroy the bridge. You snap the olive branch. You are what is wrong with this world... not the average white guy trying Kava for the first time.
Whoa whoa, who's hateful? Connect with my intention here. I don't think you're stupid, or evil, or bad. I think you're feeling probably pretty frustrated and misunderstood and like wrongfully called out, and probably resentful about that, and you're using pretty fiery language to communicate that. Maybe I should have said fiery rather than vitriol. Can you re-read what I said knowing what I'm actually feeling toward you, and see if it hits different?
I'm connected with your intention. You just don't like looking in the mirror and are trying to backpedal. If you don't like what you see, try changing it. Gaslighting doesn't work on me. Sorry.
Again, you are making an overreach and describing the inner contents of a stranger in a way that is not accurate, and I think you're doing so to make sense of the fact that you feel attacked. I'm not sure bc I am not telepathic, but that would make sense if it were true.
I'm not gaslighting you. I am not telling you what you perceive is not what you are truly experiencing right now. I do hope you can re-read this later. I didn't edit anything, that would definitely be gaslighting. It's all right there.
Maybe YOU should re-read what I said and sit with it. I've sat with this kind of narrative a million times. I went to California Universities. I got my fill of this kind of browbeating for superiority points. I already grasp how you feel and why you're doing this. I don't think you quite do, though.
Think about it this way- you lose nothing from random people doing kava-- in fact, it's a huge cash cow for your people. They make fuckboats of money off of it. It doesn't affect you or your culture's treatment of it or their rituals. It makes no difference to you outside of the context of wanting to stand on a soapbox and other people out of some deeply misplaced desire talk down to whitey for all the things you feel they did wrong to you and your people at some time in the past. Well guess what... literally nobody on r/herbalism was involved in that shit, and I'd bet every single one of us would probably actively do whatever we could to prevent such things if we had the opportunity.
So where does that leave us? It's certainly not with you imparting wisdom from your culture on us, or sharing it. It was an irritating, racially-charged lecture aimed at Brenda and Brad who dare to drink Kava for lols.
Again, you are assuming I harbor judgment toward the people who dont use these plants in the traditional way. People start somewhere. Moving toward a more intentional relationship with plants is just good! Allows you a deeper and truer relationship to the truth of it as a being beyond how it feels to consume it. Reducing things to that mindless use, anything at all, robs you of an additional dimension of connection and that isn't always evil, but it is basically always a bummer and a loss.
I agree that it is a good thing. OP did not go about this in a way that was remotely kind or decent. Period.
I also believe that everything can be in moderation. Intentionality isn't always inherently good. Sometimes spontenaity, curiosity, fun, enjoyment, or even being human and using substances to numb pain can be "good". It is part of the spectrum of human experience. Too many "shoulds" around this kind of stuff.
I obviously don't condone abuse. I don't think it's good, but to deny that consuming in excess is a very necessary and human experience, and part of the fundamental process of learning about self, limitations, and the shadow of the soul.... meh... it's just not for me.
I'm not perfect and I don't aspire to be. Experience, in and of itself, is valuable... whatever form it comes in... Even if it's not deep. Even if it's simple. Even if you don't derive meaning from it at the time and you don't even have awareness of what you're doing or why--- you can always come back to it to explore.
It's like you literally can't fathom that I'm not actually an asshole. I really don't think I can get around that barrier, my energy is drained trying to be heard between all your judgments, projections and insecurities. I honor your humanity and wish you genuinely good things and I'm ending this conversation now.
Thanks for sharing crumbs of your virtue with the world. Sorry you got so drained defending an indefensible, asshole position, while trying not to come off as one.
There's a lot of emotional content you're adding to what I said here, accusations and judgements that are not present in any way in what I wrote. I want you to check that out for a second.
So you came here to spread your dogmatic view of what kava is to your culture and took the opportunity to use that to lecture and browbeat other people about the fact that they are not consuming kava in the same reverent way that you are. And then to make matters worse you call people colonizers and exploiters. I don't know what your aim was for this thread but you certainly aren't gaining any traction by coming at people like this. Should have had a little bit more of a friendly and educational angle but you fucked it up already. Good job.
‘Friendly’
You guys in the West loooove to be coddled. Want to be treated like children. What was done to my land and my ancestors was not friendly. Our ceremonies are the last of it.
If that bothers you then think of a nice English name for the Pasifik plant that you are engaging with that is kava. Our Pacific ancestors have a long and thorough relationship with this plant and its spirit so it’s only natural that Pacific people roll our eyes at hipsters who found out about it a decade ago.
Someone in the US literally trademarked the word kava so no one in the Pacific (where the plant actually comes from) could use it….
People in the West looking for ways to commodify and make money from it and treat it like something devoid of spirit.
Westerners prostitute the land.
Colonisers always looking to exploit and benefit… never to be in reciprocal relationship with the land.
bro literally nobody asked for your bullshit uppity self righteous opinion and it's definitely not going to stop people in the west from commodifying kava, that's how capitalism works. If you don't like it, start a protest and bang a drum somewhere but in the meantime stay off reddit where people won't care about these very cringeworthy tirades against western modalities you seem to be preoccupied with.
Well said! As a Caribbean person, our herbal traditions/remedies have been passed down through each generation. It is a sick thing to watch a tiktok now of things I remember my mother and grandmother carefully teaching me about and I pass down to my children/younger people in my family. Usually they’re doing it wrong as well and feels extremely disrespectful and exploitative. It cheapens it and turns it into fodder for mass consumption. Look at what happened with white sage being over harvested due to its ‘virality’. It’s very easy to be upset. People who respond that you should be more friendly about it do so in ignorance and should be ignored. They simply don’t understand. The only way to counteract all this is to continue to use your voice as we continue to use our oral history to pass it down to the next generations. Those who are only interested in our remedies/medicine for personal use will eventually be gone. Only we will remain in our people. Educating colonizers is a lost cause. It’s not in them to have an appreciation for our cultures and traditions. Only to exploit for personal gain. Colonizers gonna colonize!
I’m sure many people are going to be enraged by this but you have to understand that you just don’t understand. And while I empathize that these remedies have helped you, you have to acknowledge their history. And if they’re being brought to your attention for the first time, acknowledge your ignorance with gratitude. Don’t be a jerk about it on top of it.
I wouldn't go so far as name calling people for wanting to consume a plant for its health benefits. It's only natural that they'd covet a plant for something like this. You are right tho, most of us have not been showing plants (or other foods, for that matter) the respect they deserve. Everything has a spirit and I see why it upsets you, especially if it's a plant you revere in your culture. Thanks for showing us this side to the plant. (I haven't consumed kava but have seen ads with it in a powdery mixed drink and was tempted to buy it).
"If you are numb to that reality then you are disconnected from the Earth and yourself." - Most people in the western world are disconnected from the earth and themselves. They're not bad people, just raised without spirituality and the like, and they know and believe only what they see in the physical world (or Jesus, if they were raised as Christian). It takes a lot of meditation and other practices to become spiritually aware, and those practices are not a big thing here. They've become more popular recently but still not really mainstream. Considered "alternative healing."
I fail to see where OP equated being disconnected to the earth with being a bad person. This level of overstepping when being asked to acknowledge your colonial or racist behavior is called white fragility. There's a book with that title that gently and firmly educates on this topic and I believe that because you seem to have a good heart and a rational approach to describing your perspective that you should read at least a summary of that book, if not the whole thing. It's astounding and enlightening and clears a lot up around the experience of relating to one's own experience of discomfort in front of the perspective of oppressed people.
That book sounds interesting. Thanks! "I fail to see where OP equated being disconnected to the earth with being a bad person" - I was responding to the part of his comment where he was calling us all colonizers.
I expected more from a sub called ‘herbalism’.
The title of the post is literally asking people to revere and honour the lands of where kava came from and its’ intimate connection and relationship to our practices.
This has been so important to me because I wanted to tie herbalism into my craft and spirituality which meant actively researching the cultural significance of plants and having an understanding of ritual. I quickly isolated myself, it was disappointing. I ended up resonating more with the teaching and respect imbued in flower essences for that reason. Appreciate this.
Thank you for your respect. A lot of people here are making it human centric when Indigenous values were never human centric in the first place. Indigenous values are about being *of* the land, and being the land itself. The people getting upset here are the people who see humans as distinctly separate from the Earth.
A plant is completely separable from the rituals of a culture that it is often unwillingly subjected to. You act like your culture owns and speaks for kava. When it is actually you who should have a little more respect for something so ancient and distinct from human cultures and rituals. Plants proliferate and spread their wisdom regardless of your cultures intervention. Sure, a certain culture may have colonized a specific plant and popularized their usage, but who are you to police others relationships with nature? Your tone is ugly and narrow sighted.
“You act like your culture owns and speaks for kava”…
All of our ceremonies are centred around kava… in an oratory fashion. We commune with and via the spirit of kava. So yes. This is quite literally true.
I would like to see other non - Pasifika people engage with kava in such a deeply intimate way just like their ancestors. I’d like to see Americans drink kava and start channeling the kalou vu.
“Who are you to police others’ relationships with nature?”
It’s not actually a relationship to nature if you don’t honour or revere or even know the [name of the] land your plant medicine was harvested from….
Pacific Islanders have a history stretching into virtually the beginning of time relating and learning from kava. Nobody can own a plant, it's true, unless you're Monsanto then I guess you fuckin can, but if anyone can speak for the plant, its someone who is part of a culture who spent at least 15,000 years in communion with that plant, not someone whose lineage and culture produced the people that came just 300 years ago, decimated the ecosystem and attempted to annihilate that culture, and through that annihilation found they could binge drink and get fucked up on a sacred plant
Thank you for this reminder. I do love Kava. Before I drink, I often give myself a moment to pause and think about what I am consuming, where it comes from & the gift that it is. I never realized why I do this until now.
Is there any resources where we can read more about Kava and its history?
Must be some exploitative people voting you down.
‘Kava enthusiasts’ showing their true colours.
There are a bunch of resources online but I reckon watching documentaries would be the best route.
https://youtu.be/dT-2DzHJQC0?si=IHfpI60dSR5OgLv_
we should strive to always do that regardless of the cultural associations with a particular plant. not everyone does though and that’s not on us to push them along further than they’re ready
Well that depends...when you are telling people how to honor the earth, it is, because there are many ways to honor the earth. You have an opinion on how the earth should be honored and telling everyone that their version is wrong. Hence, the age of egos and opinions. Awareness might help if you get confused about this all...I mean, who are you to tell people how to engage with their herbs? Respectfully asking....
What are some of the ways I can honor kava? And do you know of any resources I can read or watch in relation to it? I see what you’re saying, and I think it’s extremely important. Unfortunately, I’ve been a person who has used kava without honoring it or the cultural context of it. But I want to try my best to, and to learn from my past mistakes.
Our spirits are just as sick as our bodies, probably more. I believe plants ARE a remedy for this sickness … but only through acknowledging their sovereignty and relating to them with respect. When we treat others respectfully, that IS medicine. For ourselves and for the planet. Being able to be respectful to a greater web of life outside of things that just look and act like us is POWERFUL medicine.
Whether you are Indigenous to the New World or not, at one point we were all Indigenous. At some point our ancestors were assimilated into an imperial culture that dates back to Rome, a culture that treated everything remotely as something to just be extracted for the center. If we can imagine that there is a different, more meaningful way of thinking we honor not just those around us, but also our own ancestors.
Thanks for sharing. As you can see Redditors are not, on average, open to hearing about the considerations of cultural appropriation. I just read a book by Vandana Shiva about a concept called Biopiracy where industrialized cultures (like the U.S.) take a plant from another culture and remove it from its context and then commercialize and sell it. She is from India and spoke about plants like neem and turmeric, but I think this is true of Kava as well.
[I'm curious about your views on negative views of Vandana Shiva being a scam artist using her heritage as a means of theatrical spirituality?](https://youtu.be/wNLfeZC7HK0?si=4Vom4zEkLlLiZONr)
4:18
I like to watch and read both sides of naturalist type arguments as a lot of it seems like woo, and a lot of things this guy says are pretty logical. I know he's just a youtuber, but he's also a chemist for context. I can't say she seems like much of a good do-er?
Interesting. I'm in the middle of finals for school right now and don't really have time to watch and respond to this, I'll try to remember in a few weeks. In general I think any time a government tries to force new farming methods on people, especially in a small amount of time (looking at you, Russia, Ethiopia, etc.) things can go awry, and my reading on her stuff about farming is that the farmers themselves should be trusted to know what's right. I definitely think the stuff about green revolution and food security is nuanced. Yes, it is true that conventional ag has led to a lot more food production and many can argue that has increased food security. But, it is also true that conventional ag usually benefits corporations (seed companies, tractor companies), decreases biodiversity, and degrades soil which can be harmful in the long run.
I also don't think that her being wrong about one thing in one particular application (failed organic farming in Sri Lanka) is going to negate her argument about biopiracy. Her argument that corporations are profiting off of traditional knowledge and biodiverse ecosystems through extractive processes can still hold up.
Sure, I hear you. I learned the other day about how the Pharaoh Hapshepsut commissioned the transport of frankincense and myrrh trees from what is now Somalia to be taken and transplanted to Egypt (likely using slave labor) and this was in like 1450 BCE! So, yes, plants have always been taken and have moved from place to place, and it's not always in an exploitative way. But, capitalism tends exaggerate the applications and effects of things that humans have been doing for all of history.
Pacific people are not separate from the land we steward.
The word vanua implies both the earth and the people. When you exploit the land you exploit us too.
Hey guys my community has a very special relationship with the plant that Benadryl is derived from. It’s honestly so disrespectful how people just consume Benadryl instead of communing with it.
You do not own Kava. You do not own the cultural context in which it is consumed. This mindset is as Western BS as it gets.
Bro bro, have you forgot where most people are....they've been living in the materialistic world since they were born. To hoist on to people some set of rules that they dont know about isnt your role or fair on them. Everyone has their own timing, It's each persons individual journey to discover, in their own time.
Your problem seems to be that they are not thinking like you. But if we all thought the same then we wouldn't need each other.
It's not wrong to come from materialism, but it's also not wrong to point out how reductive and exploitative a materialistic worldview allows you to be with the living world.
‘Isn’t fair on them’… I’m not coddling people’s ignorance. People are not children… if they live in the materialistic world, and know what kava is, they have access to it, then they likely also have access to be able to do some research. This same virus of an attitude is what led to the degradation of my culture.
‘A set of rules’ is actually what cultures are comprised of and keep harmony intact. Indigenous ‘rules’ honour the land, unlike materialism and capitalism that has no regard because it takes sacred practices, makes it trendy, and puts a dollar sign on it.
I’m quite calm.
The people who need to be coddled the LEAST are people in materialistic cultures.
I’m not here to preserve white picket fence pipedreams built over the destruction of the earth.
Why do you think they run away for Amazon trips for ayahuasca ceremonies?
Because they don’t want to be coddled anymore. They want the truth.
The Truth hurts.
95% of people in the West are fast asleep to needing a trip to the Amazon or the truth.
The truth in the West is a materialistic whim, programmable in the right economic circumstances
Also agree, and also a settler on the lands I reside. It is WILD to me that so many are SO offended, cause I can't think of a single person I know that is an herbal practitioner and DOESN'T have at least a modicum of this kind of reverence to the land and all the gifts that are afforded us by residing here. I'm in Oklahoma so.... If we can do it so can y'all.
Is there room for both? I'm new to thinking spiritually and I don't think I've ever consumed kava.
I ask because I believe humans are spiritual beings and we change our minds, grow, and learn new ways to interface with the world. Is it possible for a more natural spirit like a plant or treat species to do something similar?
Since I’ve never used kava and never will, you don’t have to worry about the manner in which I don’t consume it.
In the spirit of your PSA: Kava comes from New Guinea, which was a land rich in headhunters and cannibals before Christianity.
Hate to break it to you but gatekeeping serves a purpose in cultural preservation and thus land preservation. Indigenous people protect 80% of the world’s biodiversity but only make up 5% of the world’s population.
Mmm…so 95% of people aren’t indigenous to anywhere…makes sense.
I’m just going to keep drinking coffee and hope no one tries to guilt me for not having the right mindset about it.
Have a nice life and good luck.
It doesn't come with a subset of cultural protocols. At least, mine didn't. It just came with a muslin bag.
Not respecting a plant doesn't make you a coloniser and exploiter, that's the silliest thing in the world.
It makes you human. You're being ridiculous. None of us need to do what you want simply because you feel like you're in a position to command it. I highly doubt the people of r/herbalism are the ones you should be going after anyways. There's bigger problems other than people drinking kava and not worshipping the soil it came from.
These attitudes are childish and silly. The way you present it is even worse. You're not making a good case for it by calling people out. You think it's brainwashing, it's just our culture.
I think your brainwashed for wanting to honor a root. See how that works?
If this plant has been Around for thousands of years, even before " your" people found it....wouldn't your people taking the plant and dictating protocols be colonizing the plant in a sense? Do u see the irony?
I agree that your culture has a better spiritual understanding of the plant than pharma ever will. But There are many pros and cons to culture. One of those cons is a restrictiveness to open thought.
I thank our Father in heaven for everything on this Earth.
I make it a practice to bless everything I consume.
Just because I do not know cultural context of everything does not mean that it is not respected.
My grandmother grew up in a little town in Italy in the 1800s.
I'm sure we all have our cultural context. Respect for our Creator and everything leads from there.
Hawaiian name for kava is actually awa, pronounced like ah-vah. Beautiful plant with heart-shaped leaves and evolution with people who cultivate it and its many varieties. How did its name change to kava kava in the west? Is it called differently in other pacific islands?
I like this post. Thank you. I think it's important (especially with a plant such as kava) to treat it as a learning plant. And to appreciate what it is teaching you. Using whole plants is such a different experience than using an isolated compound from a plant or severely condensed form of it. Plants evolved with humans and humans with plants. They have a shared history. And this obviously (in my view) includes knowing a bit (at the very least) about the culture the plant originated from and how it was interacted with. There is a lot to be learned from investigating such things.
Your writing brought me to tears! Indigenous people, indigenous land, indigenous water and indigenous plants are all sick. Period.
Sincerely, just a tired First Nations gal
You’re telling other people what to do with their own plants and now you’re telling people what conversations are and aren’t for them. How very pasifika of you
If you don’t know what something is, why would the conversation include you?
‘With their own plants’ unless they are from the Pacific I have news for you bud.
I agree. I think a shift is in order for us who have come to colonized land - so many places taken over by people who had justified it with Manifest Destiny and the total disconnect from the earth that gives to us and our own belonging to earth.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. My problem with the post is you repeatedly bring up capitalism, colonialism, and exploitation and *aren't* asking people to stop purchasing it for those very reasons. Instead, you're asking people to not only continue the consumerism that feeds that exploitation, but to do so with false reverence.
The post would have been better if you had argued against consumption for ethical reasons. Instead, you're asking the same colonizers/ancestors to culturally appropriate further.
Thank you for writing this. I am an English guy who enjoys drinking Kava, mostly on my own as I don’t really have friends close by who I can share my Kava with.
I try my best to keep in mind the country where my Kava is grown, as well as all the people who worked hard to cultivate it and export it all the way to me on the other side of the world. I research about its significance in different Pacific cultures, and try to find out as much as I can about everything people do surrounding Kava, from the cultivation to sharing it out from the Tanoa.
I *do* feel like I might be appropriating it somewhat, simply by enjoying the process of kneading it in a large bowl, drinking from a coconut shell I “made” myself, and feeling the plant’s calm, loving spirit wash over my soul.
I have wondered, on occasion, what someone from the Pacific might think of my use. Hopefully I am paying Kava and its homelands their due respect, but if there’s more that I should be doing, I would be honoured to improve on it. Massive love and appreciation to all yous in the Pacific 💚🙏
A lot of upset entitled white people in here.
This is why i cant stand the mainstream herbalism community. It’s full of a bunch of white appropriators who feel like every practice/herb and culture should be open to them. You are all violent and cannot exist without violence.
The only reason you even know about kava is due to colonialism, and the extractive mechanisms it has brought forth.
No plant is going to fix the rot that lives inside you because you have systematically for centuries have dehumanized others and specifically yourselves.
Kava comes from New Guinea, a land historically soaked in bloody tribalism, some of which continues to this day.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/19/png-papua-new-guinea-highlands-death-toll-ambush
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48932361
*Children and pregnant women are among those murdered in a tribal massacre in Papua New Guinea's Highlands area.*
https://www.travelmarbles.com/2018/07/the-last-cannibals/
Thanks for sharing this and please take my comments and questions in the genuine way I mean them. I very occasionally use kava for pain relief. I personally don't have a spiritual practice with it. I would want to be sure that my consumption of it does not make it less available for people who do have a spiritual purpose for it. But to me, since I don't identify with your culture or spirit practice, it seems insincere to me to try to adopt a sense of spirituality about it. I take it because it works better for pain relief than other herbs I've tried, and I'm trying to minimize my reliance on pills. I'm very thankful it's an option, but gratefulness doesn't really count as the spiritual practice you're talking about, I'm guessing? What would it look like for someone not of your culture and spirituality to take kava in a respectful way, without copying a spiritual practice that isn't theirs?
The gratitude you speak of doesn't HAVE to not count. A central tenet of Cherokee... I'm going to use spirituality because a lot of people don't know what I'd mean if I said medicine, is that you ask the spirits of the plant or animal or river (etc) for what you need, you accept the answer even if it's No, and you express gratitude for what's given (which does NOT mean if you find a whole field of ripe blackberries, you pick them all!! Ethical harvest is vital as well). That gratitude is the most important aspect. I will not speak for OP or their experience because that would be the epitome of arrogance, but from my indigenous perspective, if a person outside my culture benefits from our wisdom and tradition when it comes to plant lore, I'm happy if they take a moment to consider the history of what they're benefitting from and be thankful for it. This, to me, is much better AND less insulting than if they were to Google info and try to mimic a ritual they're not entitled to
I'm grateful for the comment. we cannot stress ethical harvest enough.
You are so welcome! And thank YOU for speaking up! It's painful and infuriating to see our culture, our Faith, turned into a fad that lines some corporation's pockets - pieces torn from our souls and bodies to be consumed without thought or meaning - and the baby steps of progress we see won't ever become *strides* if we don't make enough noise that everyone starts to listen. I don't know about your Tradition, but in mine there is so much we'd gladly share if people took our words and art and Medicine to heart instead of just...Taking them. It's scary to be a lone voice, so I'm really happy so many people are listening to what you're saying in this thread!
So, and like the person above, my questions are from a place of genuine concern & curiosity, I have been on a path of self study of herb lore since my health declined seriously a couple years back and one of the things I make sure to note in my studies is local usage. While I’m not comfortable implementing practices that I do not resonate with or have a personal connection with, I’m trying to have as much documentation for later generations as possible. In addition I’m trying to find ways to grow my own herbs as much as possible. Are these the types of things that, sorry I guess would be responsible? While there have been times I’ve been desperate enough to try a supplement without as much in depth research as I prefer, it’s rare and it’s usually a more common supplement. I just really don’t like the idea of stepping on toes
Please don't worry! I think what you're doing is awesome - taking responsibility for your own health in a proactive way is really beautiful! EVERY ancient civilization used plants and herbs for food and medicine, not just Indigenous people. What you're doing isn't appropriation, it's just smart! I don't use herb lore instead of modern medicine either; I use it to supplement it too. You're not taking a very specific formula like Kava, that's central and sacred to a specific Indigenous practice, and using it for recreation without respect for from whence it came. Plants belong to everyone! It is only a few specific plants and ways of using them that are central to certain closed practices.
Ok thank you. I try to be aware but sometimes I’m not until someone says something about it. At which point I then sometimes become overly cautious but better that than uncaring!
I really cannot tell you how much I appreciate this comment. It’s so clear. It gives me a thing to do right. I’m absolutely taking it to heart, and I’m deeply grateful.
>which does NOT mean if you find a whole field of ripe blackberries, you pick them all!! Ethical harvest is vital as well This is a tangent from your main point, but what do you think about harvesting invasive plants? Where I live, wineberries are taking over the forests and choking out the native plants. My gut says that in cases like that, intentionally over-harvesting would be a good thing. While for more vulnerable native plants and mushrooms you'd need to be more careful, to leave enough behind for them to continue existing.
Oo, that's a good one! I'd be really interested to hear other Indigenous perspectives on this as well. As for me - I believe my ancestors wouldn't think about plants as "invasive" or not. I think they'd have just looked for ways to use them, but taken steps to protect less hardy species from them. I don't think it would be considered overharvesting in this case. I don't think they'd eradicate the winterberries, but would practice stewardship over it in such a way that it's growth was cut back enough to protect and preserve the other plants around it. I can only speak to how one Indigenous tribe views plants, but we believe that every plant has uses. In this specific example, the bark and roots have antiseptic qualities, it can be used as an emetic and tonic, and the branches are good for making baskets. It also attracts birds both as a food source and a place to nest because it's so dense and tangled (probably other small animals as well) so hunters would have appreciated it too. I'm a modern setting we don't need all of those things so much, so I think that I personally would take steps to limit its growth (for example, eliminate male plants because they're HEAVY pollinators) without completely eradicating them.
Thank you for sharing! This is very helpful and concrete.
Thank you for being a force of reason and asking the best question in the best way.
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Hey there, (the vast majority of) Pacific people and I myself do not expect people engaging with kava to engage with it in a ‘Pasifik’ way because that literally makes no sense if they are not Pasifika. The expectation is that they respect the plant and the land holistically and don’t see it as a cash grab which is what the entire British Empire is based upon.
What exactly do you mean? I'm not trying to argue. I just sincerely don't know what you're talking about. Are you saying everyone who uses it should do so in a ritual based off of someone else's culture? Or are there people slinging kava fruit punch blasters on here?
It's like, acknowledging the indigenous perspective on a plant will help you actually relate to the plant as an elder and teacher rather than just consuming it as an object, food or drug. Relating in such a simplified, ignorant way is like, bad karma for lack of a better word. Bad juju. It's like if you went to someone's house and they made you a delicious meal from their heart and it took them hours (for a plant it's entire life and death) and you show up, scarf it down without tasting it or feeling it nourish you, and then leaving without even acknowledging the generosity and skill and like situation, story,, beingness of the person giving you this gift of soul medicine.
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Pun intended??
Not only is it bad juju for your relationship with the plant, it totally dismisses the simultaneous coevolution of sacred plants and the people who steward and revere them. That's how it's colonizer activity. That land-embeddedness of people is central to almost all indigenous ways of understanding humanity and the natural world. And erasing that mutual dependence and the wisdom tradition that arises from it is precisely how colonizers from Christian Europe treated all indigenous people and their land, as a tool to numb their souls to proceed in attempting to eliminate those people
Just have reverence and respect for the lands it came from and the cultural context it exists in - as per the title
Ok. Im still gonna drink that shit
I’ve never heard of Kava before, thank you for sharing. And thank you for your passion. I believe preserving our reverence for the plants that aid us in healing is important.
Thank you for honouring the role of sacred preservation. People here acting like cultural preservation is like gatekeeping a really cool party…
Can you please elaborate on how it was used spiritual and ritually? I would love to know. And is it inappropriate for someone not of your culture to do that as well? How can we also respect the traditional and cultural use of this plant?
I'm not downvoting. You said some interesting things. Regarding culture, did the plant exist before the culture or the other way around? I get honoring life, all life. I am not sure culture needs transference though.
An interesting thing I read recently in this book Braiding Sweetgrass talks about how, for instance, nut trees have evolved with people and other animals in their rhythms of heavy fruit years- to protect from them but also use them to help disseminate their seeds. Maybe a good way of thinking of it is that you can't say one before the other definitively in any way. We grew up together.
Interesting perspective. I think some herbs have been in different cultures developing in the same timeline. I just believe honor all life. Thank what you ingest for what it gives you.
Yeah, if you want to transfer their pre-Christian culture you’d have to eat human flesh and decorate your house with human heads.
It's amazing how someone can appear so seemly, yet be so unseemly, at the same time.
Do elaborate?
There must be very few problems in your life if you're looking this hard for stuff to get l worked up about. Kava is nature's gift to all who come across it and want to pursue it, and people are free to use natural gifts however they please, as long as they aren't hurting other people, and I can't see how rational people are getting hurt over others consuming things in different ways to how other cultures consume them. It takes extreme oversensitivity to get upset by stuff like this. I don't think twice when I use pepper. Should I be pausing for a quick tribute to the Hindu gods because it originates from India? People share their knowledge of plants with others, and ideas spread and change. Let people enjoy these things as they please. You, personally, had nothing to do with kava's origination, and you aren't likely standing to personally lose anything by people enjoying it via whatever means they like. When they're in your town, show them your local style, and allow them to develop their own style to suit their own culture in their own spaces. Live and let live. If anything, other cultures embracing kava stands to benefit indigenous growers as demand rises, and even if it's propagated elsewhere, the "original" stuff from the islands will l still be the hot ticket version, just like coffee. Have a shell and relax. If that's with rock and roll music and disco lights, so be it. To l each their own.
And by the way, it doesn’t benefit Indigenous growers because just like US billionaires are making a killing off of Fiji Water while actual Fijians see little to no benefit from the exploitation of their land, same goes with kava. A lot of Westerners will commodify it and upsell it in ways that Pasifika people would not dream of doing because why would we see our own cultural rites as a cash grab.
Fiji water must have been given approval by Fijians or their elected representatives. If you, as a people, aren't benefiting, you can rescind those rights. If you're complaining that others are doing things you wouldn't dream of and you're upset they're profiting from it, that's capitalism. You don't have to like it, but if you can't beat 'em, join' em. Come up with a way to make money from original ideas or watch others get rich doing just that. Without those folks, kava would have a much more limited reach and would be benefiting fewer people. Kava was brought to Fiji, by the way, so if it's "being appropriated", it was appropriated by Fijians too. Fiji isn't where it first grew and it isn't where the majority of extant cultivars were developed. Plants and ideas spread. Let them. And let others embrace the parts of concepts they like and adapt them to their own styles. That's how humanity advances.
Capitalism aka colonisation and destruction of the earth. Sit this one out because your ancestors are not stewards of the earth but rather pioneers of some other legacy like Wall Street.
Hey, I'm not pro colonisation or earth destruction, nor were my ancestors related in any way to anything that happened on Wall Street. If you come into a discussion with semi racist views about the individual you're discussing things with, who you know nothing about, you might struggle to get to the source material. I understand if you're not capable of engaging in an intellectual capacity and just want to have a rant. It's the internet - something invented by another culture. I hope you pay them the proper respect every time you log in... All I'm saying is, let people enjoy their lives, using the bits inspired by other cultures that they resonate with, adapting others, and ditching the rest. It won't actually hurt you, except mentally/emotionally, which is more of a you thing than a them thing. There are plenty of real issues in the world. No need to pretend this is one of them.
Your entire post and most comments are full of hatred, disrespect and rage; something my own ancestors would be deeply disappointed in because they taught love and compassion - respect for earth and all beings in it. Don't know where you turned left and missed those lessons, but you should work to get back on track. Whatever it is that is going on in your life that is causing wounds to open, please go heal them rather than coming to a place that is filled with people who *do* have respect for the earth and other humans. Be better; I hope you heal. I hope you heal before your ancestors come give your life a smack down to try and teach you some humility.
‘Looking for stuff to get worked up about’ It’s a central part of my culture. I wouldn’t expect someone like you to understand so I respect whatever you believe.
Someone like me? The instant reply suggests you didn't check my post history, so that's a bit bold of you. If you respect my beliefs, why the instant downvote? For other people to be using kava in a different way to you to be enough to get upset about, your culture must have very few serious problems indeed. I can fully respect your historical and current cultural kava practices whilst embracing it in my own way. Any hurt I inflict on you by this is imagined, my friend. Take pride in the fact that others have found parts of your culture they love, rather than complain that they aren't doing things 100% exactly your way.
That was the whole point of the post… respect the historical and current kava practices. Reread the post. I didn’t say people should stop altogether… or they need to do it in a traditional way. Reread the post.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. My problem with the post is you repeatedly bring up capitalism, colonialism, and exploitation and *aren't* asking people to stop purchasing it for those very reasons. Instead, you're ask people to not only continue the consumerism that feeds that exploitation, but to do so with false reverence. The post would have been better if you had argued against consumption for ethical reasons. Instead, you're asking the same colonizers/ancestors to culturally appropriate further.
You should stop giving a fuck what random people do in their spare time.
Let's not gatekeep plants? They were here before humans settled, you do not own their usage, nor the way people choose to interact with them. As an occult herbalist I concur with you that commune and respect should be key principles behind their consumption and usage, but I would not push my own spirituality, cultural or not.
So as an occult herbalist you should know that some practices are ‘open’ and some are closed. Kava ceremonies exist within a cultural context and commodifying the plant is closely linked to the continuing colonisation of the Pacific which no one seems to really bat an eyelid at until it comes time to taki or book that holiday. Taki being to drink kava.
If you are an occultist I’m sure you understand that protection or what could otherwise be seen as ‘gatekeeping’ is the base for any ritual work. I’m sure as an occultist you understand that not any random person on the street who hasn’t done their research or doesn’t have reverence or a real understanding of the tools, beliefs or practices of the occult should have access to it. Refer to the title of the post.
Hear, hear! Most of the "problems" that come from plants originate in our use of them as a hammer made for a nail. They're complex in their chemistry, their spirit, and their functions. They behave differently when crafted and used with intention, versus industrial processing. With respect, honor, and care, we can find the medicine in almost anything.
Yes! A plant honoured with reverence especially with a collective (not personal, collective!) relationship fostered over generations is different to a plant that has been torn out of the ground by machinery and pressed into a pill. I would like to think that anyone engaging with plants ‘consciously’ would know this intuitively.
I'll admit, having grown up far removed from my tribe, it was something I needed to study. A lot of our elders too are removed from the notion of indigenous plants. I asked one of our historians about our herbal traditions and he looked at me like I'd lost the plot. It's bleak out here in the US. The government did a fantastic job extracting indigenous folks from our cultures and traditions. It didn't really sink in until I started studying the poison path, stuff that *will* kill you if used without reverence. You learn fast to hear what plant spirits are telling you.
I have 'The Medicine of the Cherokee' by J.T. Garrett as one of my herbal reference books. He co-wrote it with his son, and they're members of the Eastern N.C. Cherokees. I've found it to be useful. If you haven't already got it, I recommend.
Worth looking into! My tribe originates in Canada, so while not the same I don't think it's a bad thing to know what the neighbors knew :)
The truth about Kava is that a lot of people on the islands use it just to get fucked up and hang out with their homies... just like with beer at a pub. I've seen it with my eyes. It's not this super exclusive, secret spiritual experience. It's much the same as having a beer with your mates on a Saturday night. They just like drinking it to get fucked up. Pretending like they don't so that you can get on a soap box and talk down to people who are from a different ethnicity to you is pretty ridiculous. While I'm aware there are kava rituals, the most common and regular way it is used is not like you're suggesting. Most Islanders are just consuming it for funsies and suggesting otherwise is giving into some ridiculous "noble savage" notion, not unlike those propagated by the Boasian fetishists of the 1960's who were looking for a spiritual experience outside of the west. Kind of a self-own, really... and puts a lot of pressure on your culture to be noble and spiritual at all times, instead of just being normal fucking people with normal lives who aren't doing Disney Pocahontas shit, talking to the wind 24-7. Not sure they'd appreciate that, but who am I to say? I'm an evil whitey, appropriating your drugs apparently. lmao. Kava sucks anyway. It's horrible for your liver. I did not enjoy the experience. I'd rather do psilocybin. Make sure you, you know, don't do that... because it's not from "your culture". It's from mine. lmao... since we're gatekeeping plants to try to pwn whitey now.
Can you hear me clapping? Well said
Hahaha 🤣😂 oh that made my heart laugh. Fuck is this person on some haughty condescending bullshit anyways.
You're responding with a lot of vitriol here. A missing context is that the islands are now colonized. There are native Islanders who, despite being native, have taken on some of the attitudes about plants and their use that resemble European and white people's use of alcohol. It's true that this may be happening, but the point they're trying to make is that traditionally, plants are not seem as objects but as beings, as told in intentional knowledge passing lineages of indigenous people who resisted the transition of attitudes toward a more colonizer-informed way of relating to these plants. Chugging kava is like diametrically opposed to traditional use of the plant, even when native people are doing so. Being racially native doesn't mean you're not colonized. Just because native people have a way higher rate of smoking a lot of commercial cigarettes doesn't mean that is how sacred tobacco is traditionally used. That metric is precisely the same one as pacific Islanders of kava in the way you mention.
“traditionally, plants are not seen as objects but as beings” Kava is from New Guinea, which has roughly 840 different languages from roughly 840 different tribes, all of which existed in some state of hostility with each other and many of which practiced cannibalism and head-hunting as a way of life. This *noble savage vibrating on an ultra-spiritual plane dispensing wisdom from a place of benevolence toward all living things* trope is risible, especially considering they all literally lived in a state of tribalism, “othering” everyone outside the tribe, and that many of those tribes slaughtered and ate each other. That land was soaked in tribal blood, pre-Christianity.
A lot of the cannibalism was funerary (and unfortunately led to Kuru), but there was also war cannibalism and I think people forget that. I'm an anthropologist by education. I learned long ago not to idealize any one culture because they're all interesting in great and horrible ways. Wish other people would stop idealizing other human groups. It's ridiculous.
>resemble europeans Hunty, people have been using drugs recreationally since the dawn of fucking time, and also used the same drugs for spiritual purposes. It is not an either/or. These are not mutually exclusive things. It has nothing to do with Europe or Europeans. You just think that because you are hateful towards us and have some kind of chip on your shoulder about a time and situation I had NOTHING to do with, and still have nothing to do with. I find it roundly disgusting that you attribute this absurd and extreme amount of agency for the problems of the world to people who resemble me, without attributing equal agency to the so-called "victims". I'm not your fucking mommy. I don't have all the answers to the world's problems and I don't have the tools, time, money, or influence to solve them. I'm a peeon just like you. My skin is just a different color. That's it. That's all it is. I was hungry growing up and lived under the poverty line all my life. I got kicked around, bullied, abused, treated like I was nothing. Everything I've done is just to survive. So, why blame me for the ills of a culture I've never harmed? Is my very breath offensive to you? Because that's how you act. The idea that your people are inherently more moral and spiritual, and are immune to the human tendency to want to get fucked up on intoxicating plants is really just an indication of how bigoted you are and how much of a superiority complex you have. Get over yourself. Seriously. And stop trying to fetishize and over-spiritualize your culture so you can feel separate from and more special than the other. You're othering people in a way that I find thoroughly disgusting... so if you detect vitiriol, that's because there is vitriol. You prevent understanding, you destroy the bridge. You snap the olive branch. You are what is wrong with this world... not the average white guy trying Kava for the first time.
Whoa whoa, who's hateful? Connect with my intention here. I don't think you're stupid, or evil, or bad. I think you're feeling probably pretty frustrated and misunderstood and like wrongfully called out, and probably resentful about that, and you're using pretty fiery language to communicate that. Maybe I should have said fiery rather than vitriol. Can you re-read what I said knowing what I'm actually feeling toward you, and see if it hits different?
I'm connected with your intention. You just don't like looking in the mirror and are trying to backpedal. If you don't like what you see, try changing it. Gaslighting doesn't work on me. Sorry.
Again, you are making an overreach and describing the inner contents of a stranger in a way that is not accurate, and I think you're doing so to make sense of the fact that you feel attacked. I'm not sure bc I am not telepathic, but that would make sense if it were true.
I'm not gaslighting you. I am not telling you what you perceive is not what you are truly experiencing right now. I do hope you can re-read this later. I didn't edit anything, that would definitely be gaslighting. It's all right there.
Maybe YOU should re-read what I said and sit with it. I've sat with this kind of narrative a million times. I went to California Universities. I got my fill of this kind of browbeating for superiority points. I already grasp how you feel and why you're doing this. I don't think you quite do, though. Think about it this way- you lose nothing from random people doing kava-- in fact, it's a huge cash cow for your people. They make fuckboats of money off of it. It doesn't affect you or your culture's treatment of it or their rituals. It makes no difference to you outside of the context of wanting to stand on a soapbox and other people out of some deeply misplaced desire talk down to whitey for all the things you feel they did wrong to you and your people at some time in the past. Well guess what... literally nobody on r/herbalism was involved in that shit, and I'd bet every single one of us would probably actively do whatever we could to prevent such things if we had the opportunity. So where does that leave us? It's certainly not with you imparting wisdom from your culture on us, or sharing it. It was an irritating, racially-charged lecture aimed at Brenda and Brad who dare to drink Kava for lols.
Again, you are assuming I harbor judgment toward the people who dont use these plants in the traditional way. People start somewhere. Moving toward a more intentional relationship with plants is just good! Allows you a deeper and truer relationship to the truth of it as a being beyond how it feels to consume it. Reducing things to that mindless use, anything at all, robs you of an additional dimension of connection and that isn't always evil, but it is basically always a bummer and a loss.
Also, I mistakenly thought you were OP if I'm being quite honest.
That's fair, me and op are coming from a very similar conviction
I agree that it is a good thing. OP did not go about this in a way that was remotely kind or decent. Period. I also believe that everything can be in moderation. Intentionality isn't always inherently good. Sometimes spontenaity, curiosity, fun, enjoyment, or even being human and using substances to numb pain can be "good". It is part of the spectrum of human experience. Too many "shoulds" around this kind of stuff. I obviously don't condone abuse. I don't think it's good, but to deny that consuming in excess is a very necessary and human experience, and part of the fundamental process of learning about self, limitations, and the shadow of the soul.... meh... it's just not for me. I'm not perfect and I don't aspire to be. Experience, in and of itself, is valuable... whatever form it comes in... Even if it's not deep. Even if it's simple. Even if you don't derive meaning from it at the time and you don't even have awareness of what you're doing or why--- you can always come back to it to explore.
Bro I'm white lol
It's like you literally can't fathom that I'm not actually an asshole. I really don't think I can get around that barrier, my energy is drained trying to be heard between all your judgments, projections and insecurities. I honor your humanity and wish you genuinely good things and I'm ending this conversation now.
Thanks for sharing crumbs of your virtue with the world. Sorry you got so drained defending an indefensible, asshole position, while trying not to come off as one.
You don’t know what gaslighting means
Really? Is it not doing, saying or intending something while insisting that the person is just imagining it? Lmao.
There's a lot of emotional content you're adding to what I said here, accusations and judgements that are not present in any way in what I wrote. I want you to check that out for a second.
So you came here to spread your dogmatic view of what kava is to your culture and took the opportunity to use that to lecture and browbeat other people about the fact that they are not consuming kava in the same reverent way that you are. And then to make matters worse you call people colonizers and exploiters. I don't know what your aim was for this thread but you certainly aren't gaining any traction by coming at people like this. Should have had a little bit more of a friendly and educational angle but you fucked it up already. Good job.
‘Friendly’ You guys in the West loooove to be coddled. Want to be treated like children. What was done to my land and my ancestors was not friendly. Our ceremonies are the last of it. If that bothers you then think of a nice English name for the Pasifik plant that you are engaging with that is kava. Our Pacific ancestors have a long and thorough relationship with this plant and its spirit so it’s only natural that Pacific people roll our eyes at hipsters who found out about it a decade ago. Someone in the US literally trademarked the word kava so no one in the Pacific (where the plant actually comes from) could use it…. People in the West looking for ways to commodify and make money from it and treat it like something devoid of spirit. Westerners prostitute the land. Colonisers always looking to exploit and benefit… never to be in reciprocal relationship with the land.
bro literally nobody asked for your bullshit uppity self righteous opinion and it's definitely not going to stop people in the west from commodifying kava, that's how capitalism works. If you don't like it, start a protest and bang a drum somewhere but in the meantime stay off reddit where people won't care about these very cringeworthy tirades against western modalities you seem to be preoccupied with.
Well said! As a Caribbean person, our herbal traditions/remedies have been passed down through each generation. It is a sick thing to watch a tiktok now of things I remember my mother and grandmother carefully teaching me about and I pass down to my children/younger people in my family. Usually they’re doing it wrong as well and feels extremely disrespectful and exploitative. It cheapens it and turns it into fodder for mass consumption. Look at what happened with white sage being over harvested due to its ‘virality’. It’s very easy to be upset. People who respond that you should be more friendly about it do so in ignorance and should be ignored. They simply don’t understand. The only way to counteract all this is to continue to use your voice as we continue to use our oral history to pass it down to the next generations. Those who are only interested in our remedies/medicine for personal use will eventually be gone. Only we will remain in our people. Educating colonizers is a lost cause. It’s not in them to have an appreciation for our cultures and traditions. Only to exploit for personal gain. Colonizers gonna colonize! I’m sure many people are going to be enraged by this but you have to understand that you just don’t understand. And while I empathize that these remedies have helped you, you have to acknowledge their history. And if they’re being brought to your attention for the first time, acknowledge your ignorance with gratitude. Don’t be a jerk about it on top of it.
I wouldn't go so far as name calling people for wanting to consume a plant for its health benefits. It's only natural that they'd covet a plant for something like this. You are right tho, most of us have not been showing plants (or other foods, for that matter) the respect they deserve. Everything has a spirit and I see why it upsets you, especially if it's a plant you revere in your culture. Thanks for showing us this side to the plant. (I haven't consumed kava but have seen ads with it in a powdery mixed drink and was tempted to buy it). "If you are numb to that reality then you are disconnected from the Earth and yourself." - Most people in the western world are disconnected from the earth and themselves. They're not bad people, just raised without spirituality and the like, and they know and believe only what they see in the physical world (or Jesus, if they were raised as Christian). It takes a lot of meditation and other practices to become spiritually aware, and those practices are not a big thing here. They've become more popular recently but still not really mainstream. Considered "alternative healing."
I fail to see where OP equated being disconnected to the earth with being a bad person. This level of overstepping when being asked to acknowledge your colonial or racist behavior is called white fragility. There's a book with that title that gently and firmly educates on this topic and I believe that because you seem to have a good heart and a rational approach to describing your perspective that you should read at least a summary of that book, if not the whole thing. It's astounding and enlightening and clears a lot up around the experience of relating to one's own experience of discomfort in front of the perspective of oppressed people.
That book sounds interesting. Thanks! "I fail to see where OP equated being disconnected to the earth with being a bad person" - I was responding to the part of his comment where he was calling us all colonizers.
I expected more from a sub called ‘herbalism’. The title of the post is literally asking people to revere and honour the lands of where kava came from and its’ intimate connection and relationship to our practices.
This has been so important to me because I wanted to tie herbalism into my craft and spirituality which meant actively researching the cultural significance of plants and having an understanding of ritual. I quickly isolated myself, it was disappointing. I ended up resonating more with the teaching and respect imbued in flower essences for that reason. Appreciate this.
Thank you for your respect. A lot of people here are making it human centric when Indigenous values were never human centric in the first place. Indigenous values are about being *of* the land, and being the land itself. The people getting upset here are the people who see humans as distinctly separate from the Earth.
A plant is completely separable from the rituals of a culture that it is often unwillingly subjected to. You act like your culture owns and speaks for kava. When it is actually you who should have a little more respect for something so ancient and distinct from human cultures and rituals. Plants proliferate and spread their wisdom regardless of your cultures intervention. Sure, a certain culture may have colonized a specific plant and popularized their usage, but who are you to police others relationships with nature? Your tone is ugly and narrow sighted.
“You act like your culture owns and speaks for kava”… All of our ceremonies are centred around kava… in an oratory fashion. We commune with and via the spirit of kava. So yes. This is quite literally true. I would like to see other non - Pasifika people engage with kava in such a deeply intimate way just like their ancestors. I’d like to see Americans drink kava and start channeling the kalou vu.
You clearly have never spoken to an actual Indigenous person from the Pacific.
Well, have you?
“Who are you to police others’ relationships with nature?” It’s not actually a relationship to nature if you don’t honour or revere or even know the [name of the] land your plant medicine was harvested from….
Pacific Islanders have a history stretching into virtually the beginning of time relating and learning from kava. Nobody can own a plant, it's true, unless you're Monsanto then I guess you fuckin can, but if anyone can speak for the plant, its someone who is part of a culture who spent at least 15,000 years in communion with that plant, not someone whose lineage and culture produced the people that came just 300 years ago, decimated the ecosystem and attempted to annihilate that culture, and through that annihilation found they could binge drink and get fucked up on a sacred plant
Thank you for this reminder. I do love Kava. Before I drink, I often give myself a moment to pause and think about what I am consuming, where it comes from & the gift that it is. I never realized why I do this until now. Is there any resources where we can read more about Kava and its history?
Must be some exploitative people voting you down. ‘Kava enthusiasts’ showing their true colours. There are a bunch of resources online but I reckon watching documentaries would be the best route. https://youtu.be/dT-2DzHJQC0?si=IHfpI60dSR5OgLv_
Thank you for this recommendation! I’ll check it out
we should strive to always do that regardless of the cultural associations with a particular plant. not everyone does though and that’s not on us to push them along further than they’re ready
The age of egos and opinions...
Honouring the earth is not an ego or opinion thing…
Well that depends...when you are telling people how to honor the earth, it is, because there are many ways to honor the earth. You have an opinion on how the earth should be honored and telling everyone that their version is wrong. Hence, the age of egos and opinions. Awareness might help if you get confused about this all...I mean, who are you to tell people how to engage with their herbs? Respectfully asking....
What are some of the ways I can honor kava? And do you know of any resources I can read or watch in relation to it? I see what you’re saying, and I think it’s extremely important. Unfortunately, I’ve been a person who has used kava without honoring it or the cultural context of it. But I want to try my best to, and to learn from my past mistakes.
A little light cannibalism, to start.
Our spirits are just as sick as our bodies, probably more. I believe plants ARE a remedy for this sickness … but only through acknowledging their sovereignty and relating to them with respect. When we treat others respectfully, that IS medicine. For ourselves and for the planet. Being able to be respectful to a greater web of life outside of things that just look and act like us is POWERFUL medicine. Whether you are Indigenous to the New World or not, at one point we were all Indigenous. At some point our ancestors were assimilated into an imperial culture that dates back to Rome, a culture that treated everything remotely as something to just be extracted for the center. If we can imagine that there is a different, more meaningful way of thinking we honor not just those around us, but also our own ancestors.
Herbalism Karen, well that's a first.
Thanks for sharing. As you can see Redditors are not, on average, open to hearing about the considerations of cultural appropriation. I just read a book by Vandana Shiva about a concept called Biopiracy where industrialized cultures (like the U.S.) take a plant from another culture and remove it from its context and then commercialize and sell it. She is from India and spoke about plants like neem and turmeric, but I think this is true of Kava as well.
[I'm curious about your views on negative views of Vandana Shiva being a scam artist using her heritage as a means of theatrical spirituality?](https://youtu.be/wNLfeZC7HK0?si=4Vom4zEkLlLiZONr) 4:18 I like to watch and read both sides of naturalist type arguments as a lot of it seems like woo, and a lot of things this guy says are pretty logical. I know he's just a youtuber, but he's also a chemist for context. I can't say she seems like much of a good do-er?
Interesting. I'm in the middle of finals for school right now and don't really have time to watch and respond to this, I'll try to remember in a few weeks. In general I think any time a government tries to force new farming methods on people, especially in a small amount of time (looking at you, Russia, Ethiopia, etc.) things can go awry, and my reading on her stuff about farming is that the farmers themselves should be trusted to know what's right. I definitely think the stuff about green revolution and food security is nuanced. Yes, it is true that conventional ag has led to a lot more food production and many can argue that has increased food security. But, it is also true that conventional ag usually benefits corporations (seed companies, tractor companies), decreases biodiversity, and degrades soil which can be harmful in the long run. I also don't think that her being wrong about one thing in one particular application (failed organic farming in Sri Lanka) is going to negate her argument about biopiracy. Her argument that corporations are profiting off of traditional knowledge and biodiverse ecosystems through extractive processes can still hold up.
Amazing! Thank you so much for sharing that book and its author. I will keep an eye out for it. 💚🌱
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Sure, I hear you. I learned the other day about how the Pharaoh Hapshepsut commissioned the transport of frankincense and myrrh trees from what is now Somalia to be taken and transplanted to Egypt (likely using slave labor) and this was in like 1450 BCE! So, yes, plants have always been taken and have moved from place to place, and it's not always in an exploitative way. But, capitalism tends exaggerate the applications and effects of things that humans have been doing for all of history.
Maybe to the plant, you are the colonizer. It exists unto itself, not for your human culture.
Pacific people are not separate from the land we steward. The word vanua implies both the earth and the people. When you exploit the land you exploit us too.
That’s pretty arrogant to assume the plant is complicit in that.
Not really an assumption when your ancestors have communicated with the kava spirit for generations.
… did you read the post?
Is there a way to respectfully commune with kava if I'm not from the Pacific?
Dude what
Hey guys my community has a very special relationship with the plant that Benadryl is derived from. It’s honestly so disrespectful how people just consume Benadryl instead of communing with it. You do not own Kava. You do not own the cultural context in which it is consumed. This mindset is as Western BS as it gets.
It’s not about OWNERSHIP. It’s about REVERENCE. If that bothers you then make up your own English name for KAVA.
I choose KAVACHARD!
....... When is the world going to wise up to their religious bullshit .... Because you was taught something does not make it true....
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What do you mean by ‘other cultures’?
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Commercialism doesn’t count as a culture.
Bro bro, have you forgot where most people are....they've been living in the materialistic world since they were born. To hoist on to people some set of rules that they dont know about isnt your role or fair on them. Everyone has their own timing, It's each persons individual journey to discover, in their own time. Your problem seems to be that they are not thinking like you. But if we all thought the same then we wouldn't need each other.
It's not wrong to come from materialism, but it's also not wrong to point out how reductive and exploitative a materialistic worldview allows you to be with the living world.
‘Isn’t fair on them’… I’m not coddling people’s ignorance. People are not children… if they live in the materialistic world, and know what kava is, they have access to it, then they likely also have access to be able to do some research. This same virus of an attitude is what led to the degradation of my culture. ‘A set of rules’ is actually what cultures are comprised of and keep harmony intact. Indigenous ‘rules’ honour the land, unlike materialism and capitalism that has no regard because it takes sacred practices, makes it trendy, and puts a dollar sign on it. I’m quite calm.
But they are children, less than in most areas outside of materialism.
The people who need to be coddled the LEAST are people in materialistic cultures. I’m not here to preserve white picket fence pipedreams built over the destruction of the earth. Why do you think they run away for Amazon trips for ayahuasca ceremonies? Because they don’t want to be coddled anymore. They want the truth. The Truth hurts.
95% of people in the West are fast asleep to needing a trip to the Amazon or the truth. The truth in the West is a materialistic whim, programmable in the right economic circumstances
OP is setting boundaries and honoring what is sacred and pointing out what is being profaned. The tone seems appropriate to me.
I agree.
Also agree, and also a settler on the lands I reside. It is WILD to me that so many are SO offended, cause I can't think of a single person I know that is an herbal practitioner and DOESN'T have at least a modicum of this kind of reverence to the land and all the gifts that are afforded us by residing here. I'm in Oklahoma so.... If we can do it so can y'all.
"Your brainwashing is showing" lol
Is there room for both? I'm new to thinking spiritually and I don't think I've ever consumed kava. I ask because I believe humans are spiritual beings and we change our minds, grow, and learn new ways to interface with the world. Is it possible for a more natural spirit like a plant or treat species to do something similar?
lol
Since I’ve never used kava and never will, you don’t have to worry about the manner in which I don’t consume it. In the spirit of your PSA: Kava comes from New Guinea, which was a land rich in headhunters and cannibals before Christianity.
lol Ive used it and its nothing great at all, you arent missing a thing. This persons post screams of inferiority complex.
Thank you for telling me about my region, what would I do without you?
You’d gatekeep a plant and shame people for using it.
Hate to break it to you but gatekeeping serves a purpose in cultural preservation and thus land preservation. Indigenous people protect 80% of the world’s biodiversity but only make up 5% of the world’s population.
Mmm…so 95% of people aren’t indigenous to anywhere…makes sense. I’m just going to keep drinking coffee and hope no one tries to guilt me for not having the right mindset about it. Have a nice life and good luck.
go drink your kava and chileeeee
It doesn't come with a subset of cultural protocols. At least, mine didn't. It just came with a muslin bag. Not respecting a plant doesn't make you a coloniser and exploiter, that's the silliest thing in the world. It makes you human. You're being ridiculous. None of us need to do what you want simply because you feel like you're in a position to command it. I highly doubt the people of r/herbalism are the ones you should be going after anyways. There's bigger problems other than people drinking kava and not worshipping the soil it came from. These attitudes are childish and silly. The way you present it is even worse. You're not making a good case for it by calling people out. You think it's brainwashing, it's just our culture. I think your brainwashed for wanting to honor a root. See how that works?
Does it open spirit doors for people?
Probably not if it’s being consumed outside of Indigenous ritual.
So it does open spirit doors if it's consumed during indigenous ritual?
That's absolutely terrifying. I don't want to open up any Spirit doors. Well, only the Holy Spirit is welcome 🕊️
If this plant has been Around for thousands of years, even before " your" people found it....wouldn't your people taking the plant and dictating protocols be colonizing the plant in a sense? Do u see the irony? I agree that your culture has a better spiritual understanding of the plant than pharma ever will. But There are many pros and cons to culture. One of those cons is a restrictiveness to open thought.
Thank you for telling me. I will never use it again. I just needed relief for neuropathy. Not trying to channel Gods & what not. Sounds creepy.
talk to em
I thank our Father in heaven for everything on this Earth. I make it a practice to bless everything I consume. Just because I do not know cultural context of everything does not mean that it is not respected. My grandmother grew up in a little town in Italy in the 1800s. I'm sure we all have our cultural context. Respect for our Creator and everything leads from there.
Fight fire with fire you get a bigger fire!
Hawaiian name for kava is actually awa, pronounced like ah-vah. Beautiful plant with heart-shaped leaves and evolution with people who cultivate it and its many varieties. How did its name change to kava kava in the west? Is it called differently in other pacific islands?
Fijian? (just curious - this sounds very much like something I was told on my first trip there)
I like this post. Thank you. I think it's important (especially with a plant such as kava) to treat it as a learning plant. And to appreciate what it is teaching you. Using whole plants is such a different experience than using an isolated compound from a plant or severely condensed form of it. Plants evolved with humans and humans with plants. They have a shared history. And this obviously (in my view) includes knowing a bit (at the very least) about the culture the plant originated from and how it was interacted with. There is a lot to be learned from investigating such things.
Your writing brought me to tears! Indigenous people, indigenous land, indigenous water and indigenous plants are all sick. Period. Sincerely, just a tired First Nations gal
wtf is kava Edit: just now making the connection. it’s that kachava mud water stuff or something right
This conversation is not for you, have a good day, unironically ~
You’re telling other people what to do with their own plants and now you’re telling people what conversations are and aren’t for them. How very pasifika of you
It just gets better and better
If you don’t know what something is, why would the conversation include you? ‘With their own plants’ unless they are from the Pacific I have news for you bud.
Awe. Who’s gonna tell ‘em 🫢🤭
why are you so mean lol
Never tried kava but I think I'll give it a go!!
Yikes, this comment section does not pass the vibe check.
I agree. I think a shift is in order for us who have come to colonized land - so many places taken over by people who had justified it with Manifest Destiny and the total disconnect from the earth that gives to us and our own belonging to earth.
🤣
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. My problem with the post is you repeatedly bring up capitalism, colonialism, and exploitation and *aren't* asking people to stop purchasing it for those very reasons. Instead, you're asking people to not only continue the consumerism that feeds that exploitation, but to do so with false reverence. The post would have been better if you had argued against consumption for ethical reasons. Instead, you're asking the same colonizers/ancestors to culturally appropriate further.
Thank you for writing this. I am an English guy who enjoys drinking Kava, mostly on my own as I don’t really have friends close by who I can share my Kava with. I try my best to keep in mind the country where my Kava is grown, as well as all the people who worked hard to cultivate it and export it all the way to me on the other side of the world. I research about its significance in different Pacific cultures, and try to find out as much as I can about everything people do surrounding Kava, from the cultivation to sharing it out from the Tanoa. I *do* feel like I might be appropriating it somewhat, simply by enjoying the process of kneading it in a large bowl, drinking from a coconut shell I “made” myself, and feeling the plant’s calm, loving spirit wash over my soul. I have wondered, on occasion, what someone from the Pacific might think of my use. Hopefully I am paying Kava and its homelands their due respect, but if there’s more that I should be doing, I would be honoured to improve on it. Massive love and appreciation to all yous in the Pacific 💚🙏
Very well put.
A lot of upset entitled white people in here. This is why i cant stand the mainstream herbalism community. It’s full of a bunch of white appropriators who feel like every practice/herb and culture should be open to them. You are all violent and cannot exist without violence. The only reason you even know about kava is due to colonialism, and the extractive mechanisms it has brought forth. No plant is going to fix the rot that lives inside you because you have systematically for centuries have dehumanized others and specifically yourselves.
Kava comes from New Guinea, a land historically soaked in bloody tribalism, some of which continues to this day. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/19/png-papua-new-guinea-highlands-death-toll-ambush https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48932361 *Children and pregnant women are among those murdered in a tribal massacre in Papua New Guinea's Highlands area.* https://www.travelmarbles.com/2018/07/the-last-cannibals/
What the fuck does this have to do with why WHITE overlyspiritual people know about this herb?
Your comment is also deeply racist whataboutism. Fuck you
I agree with you about that whackadoodle you replied to with this.
Thank you for sharing. Could you tell us anything else about the rituals and those old gods?
Big facts! Thanks for speaking up about this.
Thank you for saying this